Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White

Summary

Dateline NBC Podcast Summary: "Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White"

Release Date: February 5, 2025

Overview

In the episode titled "The Devil Wore White," hosts Josh Mankiewicz and Keith Morrison delve into the dark and intricate story of Sante Kimes, a criminal mastermind from the 1990s, and her tumultuous relationship with her youngest son, Kenny. Unlike typical Dateline episodes that focus on the dynamics between killers and their victims, this episode explores the complex bond between two perpetrators. The discussion is enriched with insightful commentary, personal anecdotes, and exclusive interview clips, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the Kimes family's criminal endeavors.

---

1. Introduction to Sante Kimes and Kenny

Josh Mankiewicz introduces the episode by highlighting the unique focus on the relationship between Sante Kimes and her son Kenny, setting the stage for an unconventional true-crime narrative.

• Quote [01:11]: "This episode is called the Devil Wore White, and it's the kind of story that we almost never do at Dateline because it's less about the relationship between killer and victim and almost entirely about the relationship between killer and other killer."

Keith Morrison shares his personal experience covering the case in New York in the late '90s, emphasizing the extraordinary and dark nature of Sante and Kenny's activities.

• Quote [02:55]: "That's exactly what it is. The craziest story ever."

---

2. Sante Kimes: A Charismatic Manipulator

The hosts discuss Sante Kimes' ability to charm and manipulate those around her, masking her true homicidal nature behind a facade of charisma and sophistication.

• Quote [03:54]: "She was charismatic. She was the sort of person you love to be with. She was friendly and open. She looked like Elizabeth Taylor."

Sante's deceptive backstory and her knack for persuading influential figures, such as the Vice President of the United States and the United Nations, are examined, showcasing her manipulative prowess.

• Quote [04:24]: "She was an Okie, supposedly, and a poor one was her story... she lied about everything."

---

3. The Influence of Sante on Kenny

A significant portion of the discussion centers on how Sante groomed her son Kenny for a life of crime, illustrating the depth of her control and the challenges Kenny faced in breaking free.

• Quote [05:50]: "You cannot cross Sante and get away with it."

• Quote [12:26]: "He was her little prince. She did everything imaginable for him and she attached him to herself from such an early age."

The hosts explore Kenny's internal struggle and his eventual realization of the consequences of his actions, influenced by his relationship with his girlfriend.

---

4. Kenny Kimes: Confession and Consequences

Kenny's confession to the murders serves as a pivotal moment in the narrative, highlighting his attempt to save both himself and his mother from severe legal repercussions.

• Quote [19:58]: "Kenny confessed to all the murders to save her from death row, save her from the death penalty, Save himself, too, at the same time."

Keith Morrison discusses the authenticity of Kenny's remorse, questioning whether his expressions are genuine or a facade to gain forgiveness.

• Quote [16:10]: "He did some terrible things. So in a way, I don't feel sorry for him at all. He's exactly as you say, where he belongs."

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5. Exclusive Interview with Kenny Kimes

An exclusive clip from Kenny Kimes' interview provides a personal glimpse into his early life with Sante, revealing the complexities of their relationship.

Kenny Kimes shares childhood memories that juxtapose Sante's nurturing side with her darker inclinations.

• Quote [17:59]: "She was lying in bed like the big bad wolf in grandma's house... she was trying to pretend to be Irene Silverman."

• Quote [18:14]: "We ate... she loves some oysters."

He reflects on how Sante's benevolent gestures made it difficult to reconcile with her criminal actions.

• Quote [19:00]: "You fall in love with the good stuff that she was... it made it too easy to forgive the bad stuff."

---

6. Producer Anne Priceman's Insights

Anne Priceman, a longtime Dateline producer, joins the conversation to address questions from social media, offering behind-the-scenes perspectives on covering the Kimes case.

• Quote [23:05]: "I was a Booker back in 97... It was just 90% of my time. It was a fun story to work on, mainly because the developments were everywhere."

Anne discusses the challenges of reporting on such a convoluted case and her working relationship with Keith Morrison.

---

7. Audience Engagement and Social Media Questions

The episode features interactions with listeners, addressing their curiosities and misconceptions about the hosts' relationships and the broader implications of the Kimes' crimes.

• Listener Question [27:14]: "Do Josh and Keith get along? Are they frenemies?"

Andrea Canning clarifies the friendly rapport between Josh and Keith, dispelling rumors of any underlying tensions.

• Quote [27:51]: "No, I can absolutely tell you that they are friends and they love ribbing each other."

---

8. Reflections on Criminal Influence and Rehabilitation

The hosts reflect on the broader themes of manipulation, redemption, and the impact of upbringing on criminal behavior, contemplating the potential for rehabilitation amidst deep-seated influences.

• Quote [24:27]: "If you were raised as a con artist, it's great training to negotiate prison in a certain way because you know how to target people, befriend people, get things out of people."

---

9. Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes

Josh wraps up the episode by teasing future stories, including the murder of Cash App founder Bob Lee, and encourages listeners to engage with Dateline NBC through social media and upcoming broadcasts.

• Quote [28:42]: "So that is talking DATELINE for the week. Thanks very much, Keith and Ann, and thanks to all of you for listening."

---

Key Takeaways

• Sante Kimes was a highly charismatic and manipulative figure who successfully concealed her criminal activities behind a veneer of sophistication and charm.

• Kenny Kimes, under his mother's influence, became entangled in a life of crime, struggling to break free from Sante's overpowering control.

• The relationship between Sante and Kenny exemplifies how deep familial bonds can be exploited to perpetuate criminal behavior.

• Dateline NBC provides an in-depth exploration of complex true-crime stories, offering listeners both investigative insights and personal narratives from those involved.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• [01:11] Josh Mankiewicz: "This episode is called the Devil Wore White... it's less about the relationship between killer and victim and almost entirely about the relationship between killer and other killer."

• [03:54] Keith Morrison: "She was charismatic. She was the sort of person you love to be with... she looked like Elizabeth Taylor."

• [12:26] Keith Morrison: "He was her little prince. She did everything imaginable for him and she attached him to herself from such an early age."

• [19:58] Josh Mankiewicz: "Kenny confessed to all the murders to save her from death row, save her from the death penalty, Save himself, too, at the same time."

• [17:59] Kenny Kimes: "She was lying in bed like the big bad wolf in grandma's house... she was trying to pretend to be Irene Silverman."

• [27:14] Haviva Gordon Bennett: "Are Josh and Keith frenemies?"

• [27:51] Andrea Canning: "They are friends and they love ribbing each other."

---

Final Thoughts

"Talking Dateline: The Devil Wore White" offers a gripping examination of the psychological and emotional dynamics within a family bound by crime. Through expert storytelling and firsthand accounts, Josh Mankiewicz and Keith Morrison shed light on the complexities of manipulation, loyalty, and redemption, making this episode a compelling listen for true-crime enthusiasts.

Transcript

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

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[Keith Morrison]

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hi, everybody, I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and we're talking DATELINE today with Keith. Hi, Keith.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, hello, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So this episode is called the Devil Wore White, and it's the kind of story that we almost never do at Dateline because it's less about the relationship between killer and victim and almost entirely about the relationship between killer and other killer. Now, this is the story of a criminal mastermind, someone you might have heard of. Her name is Sante Khan. She became famous back in the 90s when investigators who were looking for a missing millionaire uncovered a very, very creepy, dark history of crimes. And her surprising partner in those crimes and those murders, her, her youngest son, Kenny. Now, if you have not listened to this broadcast yet, it is the episode right below this one in the list of podcasts that you chose from. So you can go there, you can listen to it, you can watch it on Peacock. And then when you come back, Keith has an extra clip that he wants to play from more of his interview back in 2001 with Kent Walker, who was sort of the heart and soul of this show in a lot of ways. And later, we're going to be joined by one of my favorite people, and that is DATELINE producer. And Price worked on this broadcast, and she will also help answer some of the questions that you may have from social media. So stick around for that or stay tuned. As we often said in 1961, Keith, you remember saying stay tuned. I remember saying that.

[Keith Morrison]

I still say stay tuned, Joe.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, there's no tuner anymore. That's the problem. So let's talk dateline. So, as I said in the intro, this is the kind of story we don't usually do here at Dateline.

[Keith Morrison]

That is absolutely correct.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

This is less about killer and victim and more about killer and killer. And it's a crazy, crazy story.

[Keith Morrison]

That's exactly what it is. The craziest story ever. And I was there in New York to cover it way back in 98 or whatever the heck it was. And when you hear the story of Sante Kimes and her two sons, particularly the youngest one, Kenny, and what they got up to over the years, oh, my goodness, the whole circus of activities that she was involved in was quite extraordinary. Just a story. I hate to say it, but I really enjoyed living in it again, even though it's really dark in many respects.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

It's the kind of story that makes people want to get into journalism. I mean, it's a long, endless twisting yarn that touches on all different localities, different people, different crimes. I mean, like Sante, her big talent clearly is that she doesn't come off as being as dangerous and as homicidal as she actually was.

[Keith Morrison]

She was charismatic. She was the sort of person you love to be with. She was friendly and open. She looked like Elizabeth Taylor. She looked fabulous all the time. When she could carry on a conversation with anybody, high or low, she came from low. She came from very modest beginnings, iffy beginnings. We don't really know what's true and what isn't true because she lied about everything.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Her backstory is pretty murky.

[Keith Morrison]

Yeah, it is intentionally on her part.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Keith Morrison]

She was an Okie, supposedly, and a poor one was her story. But she got to the point where she could carry on a sophisticated and charming conversation with the Vice President of the United States and was able to persuade or help persuade an official of the United nations to make her husband into an honorary ambassador. I mean, it was just phenomenal, the sorts of things she was able to get away with. And then along the way, she was trying, of course, to get her son Kent to be her acolyte, to train him to be just like her, to.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Be a criminal, to be a sort.

[Keith Morrison]

Of small crime criminal. And she was making fine progress until he got scared straight in his mid teens by the efforts of a girlfriend and by the recognition that he would probably spend most of the rest of his life in prison if he kept doing this sort of thing.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Let's talk for a second about Kent's girlfriend, because I don't think she understood for a long time, one, what a huge service she did for him by talking him out of that life. And second, how lucky she was to be Finished with that world.

[Keith Morrison]

That's right.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Because she could. She could have been in a landfill somewhere.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, I have no doubt she would have been simply, you cannot cross Sante and get away with it. And she didn't want somebody coming between her, her and either one of her sons. That was simply not going to be allowed.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Well, what's interesting is that Sante was arrested a few times and had a criminal record, and that didn't slow her down. But the possibility that might happen to him clearly did slow Kent down.

[Keith Morrison]

It did. I think she felt that she was smarter than. Than any authorities who would try to catch her. One of the other things about that bunch that fascinated me, and I'll include Kenneth Senior, her husband, with this, the millionaire, was how good they were at persuading otherwise normal people to engage in criminal behavior at their behest. Well, they could persuade them to burn a house down. They could persuade them to illegally sign their name to a deed. They were just phenomenally good at doing that sort of thing. And she was. And I think it was her charisma and charm that really, you know, led that parade.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, frequently on Dateline, we cover the stories of murders, and the murder is the point of the person's criminal activity, which is like they want to get rid of their husband or wife or, you know, boyfriend or whatever. Right.

[Keith Morrison]

Or whatever.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

But in this case, frequently the murders were. Were to cover up other crimes, financial crimes, insurance fraud, check kiting, when they would be found out. Like they were with that bank examiner. Right. Yeah, like they killed that guy. Like they didn't gain anything from his death except that he was no longer investigating them. And precisely, you know, they. They clearly killed that. That poor old woman in New York City just because they. They wanted to either, what, live in her house or sell it and cash it out.

[Keith Morrison]

They had two ideas. One was that they were going to take it over and rent the apartments for a lot of money. And then the, you know, second idea was to sell it. Obviously, it was a pretty valuable piece of property. And the antics that she went through. Poor old Irene Silverman, you know, didn't see what was coming. But the antics that Sante went through to try to get a notary public to sign the right kind of paperwork so that she could take over the property. Phenomenal.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And she found one that would.

[Keith Morrison]

Yes, right.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And she was posing as Irene at that point.

[Keith Morrison]

She was lying in bed like the. Like the big bad wolf in grandma's house. She was trying to pretend to be Irene Silverman and actually at one point appeared to be succeeding. I think she would have succeeded had she not been caught that day.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Great police work in this one. And also some incredible luck in which one officer recognizes the sketch put out by a different part of the department.

[Keith Morrison]

Yes. I think, Hannah, would they have, they probably would have figured that out. You know, not too long a period of time. But the luck in my mind was the fact that the LA cops decided it was worth chasing down this woman who had stolen this car because they thought that she was good for the murder of David Kasdan. And they persuaded the fugitive task force that this couple, the mother and son, should be arrested on a car theft warrant. You know, can you imagine just this 12 person or whatever it was, New York task force spending a lot of time planning and arranging for the capture of these two people based on a car theft warrant? That must have taken some persuading, even if they knew there was a murder in the background.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. I mean, one senses there must have been a conversation, which they said, look, this is a car theft warrant, but these two are on the hook for a bunch of murders.

[Keith Morrison]

A whole lot more than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

When we come back, Keith has some extra sound that did not make the broadcast that he's going to play for us from his first interview with Kent Walker.

[Keith Morrison]

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, most moms don't lead their kids into lives of crime, but that is a position of some colossal influence. I hear my mom's voice when I have not made the bed. Right. I hear my mom saying, go make the bed. Sure. And I do. And I'm good at it too. That's all Holly Mankiewicz. But most moms don't groom their kids for a life of crime, you know, and the idea that one son couldn't break away and the other one knew he had to is such a great part of this story.

[Keith Morrison]

It is. You know, when the older son wouldn't cooperate, the younger son became her next mark. And he was so attached to his mother. I think she made sure of that from the very beginning of his life. She coddled him. She. He was her little prince. She did everything imaginable for him and she attached him to herself from such an early age. She wouldn't let him out of her sight except to go very brief sojourns with the, with his brother.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I don't excuse his behavior at all. And then I don't. He's right where he belongs. He's a killer.

[Keith Morrison]

Yeah, exactly.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

But one does sense that he sort of never had a chance, right?

[Keith Morrison]

Yeah, pretty much. It would have taken a lot for him to break free. And the, the continuing relationship or non relationship between those two brothers I found fascinating. I don't even know exactly how to describe it. I'm not a psychiatrist, so I couldn't go there. But one who loved her even as he recognized that she was a terrible person and he couldn't possibly associate with her the other one who loved her in a way that a person who cannot break Away from somebody, loves them. Poor Kenny. You know, I say poor Kenny, he did some terrible things. So in a way, I don't feel sorry for him at all. He's exactly as you say, where he belongs. But he's trying so hard to make it look like, you know, he's making amends for his past behavior.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Keith Morrison]

Kent doesn't buy it.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. I'm not sure I buy it.

[Keith Morrison]

Think about it. Exactly. I don't think I buy it either, but.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Well, I mean, first of all, you do this. He does this interview, you know, But I don't want to talk about my mom.

[Keith Morrison]

Right, Exactly. Yeah. The only thing he wanted to talk about was, I'm, you know, I want to raise a million dollars. And. And you're going to help me raise that million dollars. Yeah.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Come on.

[Keith Morrison]

And then we'll. We'll spend it on education, because education needs to be better. And maybe I'll take a course in military guy. And then he didn't want to really talk about it very much of anything else.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That's a guy who's sort of as disconnected from reality now as he was when he was under his mother's throne.

[Keith Morrison]

Yes. And as I'm sure you have encountered frequently in doing these stories, Josh, as I have, when people go into prison, they tend to stay the same age in some weird way that they'll come out 20 years later and they're still the, you know, 20 year old who went in in the first place intellectually, you know, emotionally.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And you think that's. That's Kenny?

[Keith Morrison]

Seems to me. Yeah. I mean, you know, he has done some things in there. He had a girlfriend for a while, though. She passed away.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

He had a girlfriend who was. While he was incarcerated.

[Keith Morrison]

Yes, exactly. Yeah. He wouldn't have been able to have one before he was incarcerated.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right. I will never understand that. Although I did work years ago with a woman who was dating a guy and he was locked up, and I assumed, wrongly, that they had been together before he got locked up. She's like, no, I met him, you know, after he was. And I'm like, why are you. Why are you dating somebody who is incarcerated? And she said to me, well, you always know where he is.

[Keith Morrison]

That's right. That's one of the more interesting factlets about criminal justice in America. And a lot of these people who have done really terrible things have whole fan clubs full of people who would like to have relationships with them, and.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

They say that our culture is flawed. Just imagine. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So this is the first Interview that Kenny has done in a very long time.

[Keith Morrison]

Well, ever since he tried to. It appeared to try to either strangle or stab the CNN reporter back in 2000 or whatever it was.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That was a. That was a harrowing story. You hear anything in from Kenny that sounded like remorse to you?

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, you heard the usual. The kind of practiced remorse. And I sometimes I feel sorry for people who are in situations like that when society around them demands that they be remorseful before that they are able to achieve anything like forgiveness or even understanding whether they're forgiven or not. And so they'll go through all the motions of remorse, and then the reaction is, more often than not is, I don't believe you, or you're not really remorseful. You're just saying that. So in some ways, somebody who is locked up in his situation would say, well, you know, what do you have to do to be believed? I feel terrible about all this stuff, and I really would like to make amends somehow. But then you just don't know. Is it real or not real? Not sure.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, we're big on that in this country, on confession and redemption and. Yeah.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, yeah. And not believing the confessions for a long time.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Maybe more cynical. So was it difficult to get Kent to sit down and talk about this?

[Keith Morrison]

Well, no, Kent, I wouldn't say difficult. Kent has actually written a book about this case and has been interviewed before. You know, we interviewed him a couple of times before, so he's happy to tell the story. I think he is getting to a point where he would like some sort of resolution with his brother, but he's not quite there yet. I think once he achieves that, maybe he'll be. He'll move on from the story. But that's been the cornerstone of his life.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

This feels like a good time to play the extra sound from. From Kent Walker. This is a piece of the interview that did not make the broadcast. And he's talking about some early memories with Sante.

[Keith Morrison]

You're a kid, you're in a drug store or something with your mother. What happens?

[Kenny Kimes]

Well, she's got a big purse, real big purse. And we're going up and down the aisles, and I'm usually a few feet in front of her, and when she comes out, the purse is half full of stuff. Might be oysters, might be lipstick, might be a roast.

[Keith Morrison]

A roast?

[Kenny Kimes]

Yeah. We got caught one time in Newport beach, and storm manager caught her dead of rights. And she turned around and just. How dare you accuse me of this? After about five minutes, he's Apologizing to her, saying, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We get in the car, and she reaches into her purse and pulls out a big roast. Not a little roast, a big roast. Some oysters. She loves some oysters.

[Keith Morrison]

Oysters and a roast of roast beef. I mean, roast beef.

[Kenny Kimes]

I mean, you can put it in.

[Keith Morrison]

The oven and cook it for dinner.

[Kenny Kimes]

Sunday dinner. Yeah, we ate. Well, it's not like six days a week. She was a good girl. And one week she went bad. No, that. That was always there.

[Keith Morrison]

Was it for a thrill, you think?

[Kenny Kimes]

I think in my early years, it was more of a necessity. That's how we ate. I mean, if she didn't do that, we didn't eat. You know, you fall in love with the good stuff that she was. And. And you know, that was never gonna be replaced. And it made it too easy to forgive the bad stuff. Sometimes, you know, you kind of held out hope that maybe she'd calm down, maybe she'd become rational. Maybe. Maybe she'll outgrow this. Maybe. You know, once Shantae Kimes got in your blood, she never left. Never completely.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Wow.

[Keith Morrison]

Well, that tells you something. That's actually a very good way of describing it. That's a good bit to use.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Did police have anything to say about whether or not Sante and Kenny are suspects in any uncharged murders? There are other people out there that they killed.

[Keith Morrison]

I didn't hear anybody saying they think there are more. I think that probably. Is it possible there's another one? But, you know, it's never. It's never been anything that any police department has been chasing down that I know of.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So they're both on the hook for these murders. Kenny confesses to save her. Like, it's like, the last act of this controlling relationship that they had.

[Keith Morrison]

Well, yes. Kenny confessed to all the murders to save her from death row, save her from the death penalty, Save himself, too, at the same time. But really, I think the more important thing to him was saving her. As you pointed out earlier, Kenny really didn't have a chance. He was up against it from the beginning. Um, his brother Kent feels bad for not doing a little bit more to save him, but I'm not sure he could have, you know, because Sante, you know, she loved this boy, and she was enveloping him in her protective arms. And I guess the way of describing it from the outside is that she was trying to make herself his whole world.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Yeah, that part was super creepy. Okay, after the break, we will be back with Dateline producer extraordinaire Anne Priceman, and she will answer some of your questions from social media.

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

Last time two tourists went missing here.

[Keith Morrison]

They ended up dead.

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

We are back and we are joined by DATELINE producer Anne Priceman. Hi, Anne.

[Anne Priceman]

Hi, Josh. How are you?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I'm good. I love having you here on Talking dateline.

[Anne Priceman]

Love talking to you.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

We are going to take some questions from social media which Ann is going to help us answer. But first, Ann, tell us about sort of your journey with this case.

[Anne Priceman]

I was a Booker back in 97 and I was an assistant producer. So it's just like the lowest on the rung. I was on something called booking duty, where you go through all the papers and this and that, and it's before the Internet mostly. So you were doing all the wires and stitching together something to our boss who says, great, thanks. But that morning the Daily News had a story that I, you know, it was going to be enormous. And so I handed her the note. I went downstairs to smoke a cigarette, which I no longer do, but it was my 20s and for the next few weeks. It was just 90% of my time. It was a fun story to work on, mainly because the developments were everywhere. And I got to meet Keith for the first time.

[Keith Morrison]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Was it as intimidating to work with Keith in 1998 as it is now?

[Anne Priceman]

No. We know each other. We've traveled the world together.

[Keith Morrison]

We have.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Let's talk about some social media questions which have come in now. They're more statements than questions, but here's one from Tammy Minoski, who we know very well here at Dateline. She said, Kenny probably has no idea how to live without his mother. And I have to say that sounds true to me because she is, like, dominated his life, controlled almost every aspect of it forever.

[Keith Morrison]

Yeah, he struggled. Certainly. He had a. And Anne, you know more about this than I do. You've spent more time talking to him.

[Anne Priceman]

I think as much as she's an influence, like, you can't survive maximum security male prison thinking of your mother's guidance. But one thing I think this is not even a theory. If you were raised as a con artist, it's great training to negotiate prison in a certain way because you know how to target people, befriend people, get things out of people.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And he's like a bunch of other people that we occasionally interview on Dateline, which is, I'll do the interview, but I don't want to talk about the thing that you want to talk about, which is the only thing anybody wants to interview you about.

[Anne Priceman]

Yeah. Keith did a really great job of making sure, like, we handled both, you know.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Okay, one, I think you're right to stop kissing up to Keith.

[Anne Priceman]

I don't have to kiss up anymore. He likes me.

[Keith Morrison]

I think I like Anne better than I like you, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Oh. First of all, I don't have any question that that's true, that most people feel that way. So you're definitely in the majority. Joan GVS says I had to go to the bank four times in a month to answer for everything in my life to buy my house. Over 20 pages of information proving we're not laundering money was completed. It was crazy. How do these people get away with it? You know, first of all, the answer is, one of the answers is it was easier to do that previously than it is now.

[Anne Priceman]

The other thing is she didn't go through the normal front door kind of way of, in New York City of buying an apartment, getting approvals, taking 90 days and doing that. She was trying to go around it. And frankly, there's something in my mind what partly brought her down is the incredibly antiquated real estate laws of New York City.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, Stacy, Delilah writes in to say, if these people had put this time and effort into a legitimate business, they could have been successful. And that's probably true. But going straight is not as much fun, is it?

[Keith Morrison]

No, that wasn't the point.

[Anne Priceman]

I also don't think Sante could have survived in a legit business like, you know, the 9 to 5, just keeping up with what's.

[Keith Morrison]

No.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

In the business of conning and scamming people sort of have contempt for. For, like, you know, the squares who, you know, work every day and don't break the rules.

[Keith Morrison]

And in fact, to show how contagious this sort of feeling about the legitimacy or the lack of it is, when she married Ken, who had made a success of his life in the legitimate way, he was really no longer interested in being legitimate. He loved when she broke the rules, and he could kind of live vicariously in her badness.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Now, Andrea and Blaine got a question last week that they want us to listen to, so let's listen to that. So we've got another one. This is from Instagram.

[Acorn TV Ad]

This is Haviva Gordon Bennett with a question.

[Haviva Gordon Bennett]

I just got done listening to an episode of Talking Dateline. It was Keith Morrison, who I love, and Josh Mankiewicz, who I also love. They were trying to be funny with each other. Like, Keith Morrison called Josh like, an infidel, and Josh was like, yep, totally infidel. But there was, like, so many moments of that. It felt really, like almost like, did they really not get along or do they get along? Are they frenemies? It was an interesting back and forth, and now I'm not sure. And I want Andrea Canning to chime in and, like, let me know if they're actual frenemies.

[Andrea Canning]

That was a great question. No, I can absolutely tell you that they are friends and they love ribbing each other, and they love, you know, getting into these conversations with each other. And I've been around them so many times, and I have never seen anything but love between those two.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Andrea could not be more wrong.

[Keith Morrison]

Keith essentially, clearly doesn't know us well at all.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Andrea is correct. Keith is one of those people that you never hear anything bad about. And. And now that I've gotten to know Keith, all better, I do understand why. Because he is a pro and a great journalist and just go, yes, you know what?

[Keith Morrison]

What is he doing? What is he doing?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So great. It's like the rest of us don't exist. Okay, there you go.

[Keith Morrison]

All right.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I feel better now. Okay. So that is talking DATELINE for the week. Thanks very much, Keith and Ann, and thanks to all of you for listening. Remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or any case that you think we should be covering, you can reach out to us on social media at datelinenbc or you can send us an audio message for a chance to be featured in our next talking DATELINE episode, which I know there's fist fights to do that. And don't forget to tune in Friday for my all new episode on Dateline at 9:00 Eastern, 8 Central, about the April 2023 murder of the guy who founded Cash App, a man named Bob Lee. It's a story you heard about. And now we're going to tell you about the hunt to find his killer. See you on DATELINE on NBC.

[Keith Morrison]

DATELINE is sponsored by Capital One. Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com bank capital1NA member FDIC.