Talking Dateline: The Prince, The Whiz Kid, & The Millionaire

Summary

Dateline NBC: Talking Dateline — The Prince, The Whiz Kid, & The Millionaire

Original Air Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Lester Holt
Guests: Josh Mankiewicz (Correspondent), David Ketterling (Producer)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Talking Dateline delves deep into the making and impact of “The Prince, The Whiz Kid, & The Millionaire,” a true-crime investigation into the disappearance and murder of Palm Springs socialite and retired art collector Cliff Lambert. Host Lester Holt is joined by correspondent Josh Mankiewicz and producer David Ketterling for behind-the-scenes insights, reflections on the rich cast of real-life characters, and answers to questions from viewers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Crime Years in the Making

• The making of the Dateline episode took about two and a half years, with COVID delays and multiple trials extending the timeline.
• Characters and the locale — especially Palm Springs — added distinct color and depth to the story.

"This took about two and a half years... The richness of the characters in this episode, I thought really made a difference."
— Josh Mankiewicz (01:56)

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2. Cliff Lambert: The Victim Behind the Headlines

• Cliff was depicted as a lonely man whose vulnerabilities were exploited.
• His losses from the AIDS epidemic in the 80s and 90s contributed to his isolation, making him a target.

"Cliff was a lonely person who made some foolish romantic choices... he’d lost a lot of people. There's no way that doesn't weigh on you."
— Josh Mankiewicz (03:08)

• The criminals observed that Cliff had few close friends or family, mistakenly thinking his disappearance wouldn't be noticed.

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3. How the Crime Unraveled

• The plot began to come apart when a real estate agent, neighbors (alerted by a suspicious U-Haul), and Cliff’s loyal friend Eddie took notice.
• Eddie’s concern, after Cliff failed to appear at the Festival of Lights, triggered the investigation.

"Eddie, who was waiting for Cliff at the Festival of Lights... was the first who thought something's wrong."
— Josh Mankiewicz (04:11)

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4. The Web of Con Artists: The Key Players

• The Prince (Kishal Nerula): Self-styled as a Nepalese prince and skilled chameleon, Nerula played a major role in the con and murder.

"He's the kind of guy that you want to have if you're doing a grift... He's got this very posh, erudite, ‘I went to the best schools’ accent."
— Josh Mankiewicz (06:22)

• The Whiz Kid (Danny): Expert in cons ranging from financial scams to orchestrating Clifford’s downfall.
• Other Defendants: Included David Replogle (a lawyer), and complicit associates like Craig McCarthy, who “flipped” for leniency.

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5. Turning Points in the Case

• Police initially considered that Cliff may have been part of an insurance scam before evidence mounted to suggest foul play.
• Mistakes by the perpetrators (voicemails, conspicuous moving activity) gave police crucial leads.

"These guys were very sharp about some things, and incredibly stupid about others..."
— Josh Mankiewicz (07:13)

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6. The Prosecution’s Challenges and Triumphs

• Prosecutor Lisa Di Maria: Diligently built the case over years, but convictions were temporarily overturned due to a judge's remark, leading to multiple retrials.

"Lisa Di Maria is about one of the last people I’d want coming after me... she lived and breathed that thing for years."
— Josh Mankiewicz (09:54)

• Eventually, Rob Hightower successfully retried the case and secured convictions.

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7. Behind-the-Scenes Stories & Unseen Characters

• Steven Valentino Interview Unveiled:
  • Valentino crossed paths with "Prince" Nerula, who stole millions in jewelry from his mother.

"I went into my mother's bedroom... Millions worth of jewelry missing. What immediately went through my mind... was, where is Kishal right now?"
— Steven Valentino (via Josh Mankiewicz, 14:57)

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8. Palm Springs: A Story Setting and Character

• The look and feel of Palm Springs were integral, with its diverse, colorful community.
• Barbara Wisby, a vibrant local, gave memorable interviews shedding light on Lambert’s world and the local lifestyle.

"Barbara's one of those people... after you interview them, you think: were you a witness to any other crimes? I'll put you in any story."
— Josh Mankiewicz (20:14)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Cons’ Motivation:

  "They were all kind of trying to one up each other on who's the better con... And then when Kashal got out ... maybe he was a little bit desperate or something. And it escalated at that point."
  — David Ketterling (27:09)

• On Cliff’s Art:

  "Cliff Lambert, rest his soul, bragged himself into an early grave. He told everybody how much money he had … and it was all B.S."
  — Josh Mankiewicz (18:37)

• On True Friendship:

  "Cliff and Eddie clearly were very good friends. And Eddie... was like, no, no, something’s wrong. If Clifford left town, I’d know about it."
  — Josh Mankiewicz (05:07)

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Audience Questions & Insights

How Did Crime Scene Investigators Miss the Blood? (23:29)

• Forensic question about bleach, cleaning, and luminol usage.
  • Josh explains: They likely cleaned the scene extremely well, enough to offset modern techniques.

  "Maybe they shouldn't have been grifters. Maybe they should have been house cleaners because they might have been better at that."
  — Josh Mankiewicz (24:34)

About Dennis, the Self-Proclaimed Sociopath (24:39)

• On interviewing someone who calls themselves a sociopath:

  "I'm not sure I have ever interviewed anyone who self identified as a sociopath. That was a little surprising."
  — Josh Mankiewicz (24:48)

• Audience reaction: Dennis, oddly, appeared most likable among the criminals.

Why Did the Grifters Kill Cliff? (25:46)

• Money was the original motive. When the cons failed, the plot escalated to murder.
  • Cliff’s lack of social ties made him a more tempting mark.
  • No evidence Danny was present for the killing; he was more of a mastermind.

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Noteworthy Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|----------------------| | 00:42–01:56 | Episode introduction & setup of the case | | 03:08–04:02 | The loneliness of Cliff Lambert & why he was targeted | | 04:11–05:00 | How the plot came to light (thanks to Eddie and the neighbors) | | 06:22–08:08 | The role of "Prince" Kashal Nerula and his performance as a con man | | 09:28–10:37 | Prosecutor Lisa Di Maria’s tenacity and the legal twists | | 13:30–14:57 | Behind-the-scenes: Producer David Ketterling introduces the story of Steven Valentino and the Prince’s past thefts | | 18:37–19:17 | The truth about Cliff’s art collection | | 20:08–21:39 | Barbara Wisby’s unique insights and classic quotes | | 23:29–24:34 | Audience Q&A: Forensics and cleaning the crime scene | | 24:39–25:46 | Audience Q&A: Interviewing sociopath Dennis and comments from viewers | | 26:08–27:33 | Why the murder happened – escalation from con to homicide |

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The Episode's Tone & Style

• Conversational, candid, and occasionally laced with dry humor (notably from Josh Mankiewicz).
• Deeply empathetic towards the victim while sharply critical of the perpetrators’ actions and mistakes.
• Strong appreciation for the unique characters brought into the story, both victims and investigators.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Talking Dateline offers a gripping look at not only a twisted crime, but also the personalities and place that made it so intriguing. Through thorough reporting, humanizing anecdotes, and humorous asides, listeners get a full sense of why this case stands out—even among Dateline’s long history of true-crime stories. The conversation emphasizes how the lines between conning and violence blur when unchecked and underscores the lasting impact vigilant friends, neighbors, and determined law enforcement can have.

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For those interested in visuals of Palm Springs and the cast of characters, Josh and the team encourage watching the episode on Peacock for the full experience.

Transcript

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, this, this took about two and a half years. I think the first interview I did was Tyson Ranch, which was in which was in Las Vegas. And then after that, we went to, we went to Palm Springs and we did that wonderful interview with Barbara Whisby. The richness of the characters in this episode, I, I thought really made a difference. And I also thought Palm Springs as a character in itself kind of, kind of made a difference. And it gave you a sense of sort of what life was like. There's and also sort of like who Cliff was. Eddie was a was a sensational interview. We did him early, and then, you know, the case took forever, partly because of COVID and partly because there were two trials, because the. The first verdict got thrown out, and. And then the two of the defendants, Danny and. And David Replogle, managed to delay sentencing for a long time. And. And so that made everything last longer. So it was a lot longer than most Dateline episodes.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. And one of the things I pulled away from this program is that Cliff, in the end, was a lonely character. He surrounded himself by a lot of people. His buddy Eddie. But at the heart of it, he strikes me as someone that was rather lonely.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

One of the things that I thought sort of is going to hit home with all Dateline viewers is that there were some very recognizable themes in this. Cliff was a lonely person who made some foolish romantic choices. You know, Cliff lost a lot of his friends to AIDS in the 80s and 90s, so he was not just lonely, he also had lost a lot of people. And, you know, there's no way that that doesn't weigh on you. So, you know, I think Danny figured out that Cliff didn't have a family, and he didn't have a lot of close friends. And I think they thought if we make this guy disappear, basically no one's going to notice in the amount of time that we need to clean out his house, sell the artwork, and get all his money. And were it not for Eddie, they were just about right.

[Lester Holt]

The way this came to light, at the end of the day, it came apart because a guy was moving some stuff, and a real estate agent kind of blew the whistle.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, the real estate agent got a listing for the house and couldn't figure out why the person selling it wanted such a small amount of money for a house that was going to bring a lot more money, but they wanted to sell it, like, in the next couple of days. The neighbors across the street, who I think were sitting out on their porch having an afternoon cocktail, realized they hadn't seen Cliff in a while, Saw a U haul across the street with somebody putting stuff into it, and they thought, like, that's kind of weird. I had no idea Cliff was moving. They called the cops, so. And Eddie, you know, Eddie, who was waiting for Cliff at the Festival of Lights, which is an annual thing in. In Palm Springs. It's the event that Eddie and I were walking around during that you saw on the show. But, you know, it was Eddie who first thought, something's wrong.

[Lester Holt]

Eddie came across as a true friend in this. There was no romantic link between these Guys. But there was real great depth of affection.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Cliff and Eddie clearly were very good friends. And Eddie, he was like, no, no, something's wrong. If Clifford left town, I'd know about it. And he went into the cops. But the fact that Bustamante was taking stuff out of the house, some of which he was putting in the U Haul and some of which was in his hotel room, which police found everything about that said that Cliff was being victimized in some way. And that's kind of what made the cops think there's a crime in progress here. And what they didn't know at first was whether this was some kind of crime involving Cliff, who might either was being held against his will or maybe was dead, or whether Cliff was somehow complicit in this, because that was some of their thinking in the early days. Like, he's disappeared and he's going to say, I'm out of town, and he's going to say, everything's been stolen. And then it's some kind of insurance scam. But eventually they figured out that the problem was something has happened to Cliff, and it was a long time before they figured out what.

[Lester Holt]

Let's talk, if we can, for a second about the Nepalese prince, or self proclaimed prince in this. He. He kind of appears midway in this and takes on a large role.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, I mean, look, he's the kind of guy that you want to have if you're doing a grift. I mean, he can play a role. He sounds like he's from another country. He's got this very posh, erudite, you know, I went to the best schools accent. He's also sort of of an indeterminate ethnicity, which means he can be a British lawyer, he can be the Nepalese prince. It's not exactly clear what Kashal's backstory is. And part of the problem here is that you can't really trust anything coming from anybody's lips here. But he certainly presented himself as this prince and did that very, very effectively. And if you're doing a con, you need somebody who can be a good actor. And he definitely was.

[Lester Holt]

He got on the phone at one point regarding the artwork and took me a second to realize, wait a minute, we've heard that voice.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, that's right. I mean, these guys were very sharp about some things, and they were incredibly stupid about other things. Like, it didn't occur, though, if I pull a U Haul truck up to this guy's house that we've just murdered, people are gonna see it. They might call police. They did not realize that Cliff had a friend who was such a good friend that he would call police if Cliff didn't show up. One of the mistakes they made was leaving a voicemail message, which later would be essentially identified as being Kishal. I mean, that's the cops. That was the. That was like the light bulb moment for the cops. They're like, wait a minute, I know who you are. You posed as that British lawyer and you're part of this con, But Kishal is the guy who let the murderers into Cliff's house. So, I mean, he's a fraud, he's a con man, but he's complicit in a brutal murder. He's a lot more than just a fast talking guy with a good accent.

[Lester Holt]

We also hear directly from someone who was in the room at the time of the killing, who walked, police literally walked, blow by blow through what ultimately happened.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, the old saying, first squeal gets the deal. That was Craig McCarthy. He pled to a lesser sentence. He testified against the other defendants, and he told police what had happened. Now, in his version of the story, he is sort of a bystander. I don't know. The police believe that he was just a bystander, but they needed to flip somebody to bring down this, this, this web of lies and murder. And he was the guy. They did.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. So I'm watching the episode and I'm watching my clock thinking, well, this thing's wrapping up early here. We, you know, the case has gone to court. They've got a guilty verdict. End of story. No, that, this, this. I keep wondering, how do you know when you finish a story like this.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And we still might not be finished? I mean, you know, nothing would surprise me about this story. To the point, I mean, this, this story was ran at the beginning of this season of Dateline. It was supposed to run last season sometime, and it couldn't because we didn't have the final disposition of the case. You know, we want to be able to say in a story, this is how it ended.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. Lisa Di Maria, what a. What a fascinating character. There she is, the. Obviously the prosecutor. She's no nonsense. She's going to take this case to its conclusion.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

She's also about. She's also about that tall.

[Lester Holt]

Is she really? I couldn't get a sense of that.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, she's tiny. Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. But, you know, she was a go getter. And you're like, well, she's nailing these guys and then everything gets turned on her. And I don't think I didn't see that coming.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, look, if I had committed some terrible crime, Lisa Di Maria is about one of the last people I'd want coming after me because she was relentless and she lived and breathed that thing for years and years and years. And then she got the conviction that she had worked so hard for. And then because of the judge's remark, the convictions were all, were all stricken, all reversed. They had to have four new trials and they did not let her do the retrial. There is no official reason why that was. I never got the full story out of her for that. But ultimately, I think justice was served by Rob Hightower, who prosecuted the case and got the convictions.

[Lester Holt]

These defendants, though, you know, if you ever can give a murderer credit in this case, they really turned the prosecution back on its heels.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, they definitely fought harder, longer and more effectively than a lot of the defendants that we see on dateline. And of course, one of these defendants was themselves a lawyer and the others were practiced con men who sort of knew how to take advantage of every loophole in the law. Ultimately, it, you know, the system won out and they were convicted.

[Lester Holt]

Well, Josh, as you mentioned, we're going to get a little more insight into this. We're going to talk to David Ketterling, one of our colleagues, a producer on this program. He'll be talking about Steven Valentino. This is a character you didn't meet in the actual broadcast, but he's got an interesting story to tell. We're going to have that when we come back on talking dateline.

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I'm Julio Vaqueiro, anchor of Noticias Telemundo. You can watch Dateline, the hit true crime series on Telemundo. And now you can listen to DATELINE as a podcast. Stories of love and betrayal, of secrets revealed of the men and women who stand between evil and justice. Every twist and turn can now be heard in Spanish. With new mysteries arriving every week, just search Dateline en Espanol wherever you get your podcasts and start listening.

[Lester Holt]

All right. Welcome back to TALKING dateline. We're back here with Josh as well as David Ketterling. He's a producer at DATELINE NBC and was one of the producers on this program. There was so much in this two hour broadcast that some stuff did get left on the proverbial cutting room floor, including an interview with a guy named Steven Valentino. He crossed paths with Prince Consul Narula and has a story to tell about his mother's missing jewelry. And Josh, why don't you give me a setup on this?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Well, I mean, look, Steven Valentino is one of the guys that we came across while we were reporting this story. But the interesting thing about about Mr. Valentino is he didn't really have anything to do with the Cliff Lambert plot. He can give you some background on what was what it was like to know Kishal Nerula. And ultimately we decided that first of all, you know, with the amount of material we had and the size of this story, there's some stuff that didn't make the final cut. So that's why you're going to hear this now and not on the TV program.

[Lester Holt]

Okay. David, you want to set up the exact bite for us?

[David Ketterling]

Yeah. So Kishal Nerula lived with Steven Valentino for a while, and Steven saw him one day going in and out of his mother's bedroom and came home later to realize that all of his mother's jewelry had been stolen, which was worth.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

A lot of money.

[David Ketterling]

Yeah, he was a jewelry collector. And he came home, the person who he thought it was his friend ended up Stealing a bunch of his mom's jewelry.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I went into my mother's bedroom, and the first thing I noticed was her chest of drawers. The top drawer was actually a jar. It was open. And I walked over to it and I pulled it out, and it was virtually empty. Millions worth of jewelry missing. What immediately went through my mind, other than wanting to choke him to death death, was, where is Kashal right now? Because he was the only one that was in that room. So I called the Marin County Sheriff's Department. They came out, they fingerprinted, and basically they started searching for Kishal.

[Lester Holt]

Well, it sounds like there are other stories to tell, Dave. Not. Nonetheless, the. The crickets have their own story to tell, I guess.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I love that. I love the crickets.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah, the crickets were definitely a thing in that. But more importantly, it gets me back to this. And the thing that I was curious about this whole program was there have to be more stories, more, you know, that this isn't necessarily a one off.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, we talked about Eddie and we talked about the neighbors. Right. We didn't talk about Tyson. Right. Tyson, you know, got fleeced by Danny very early on, long before these guys, I think, had ever heard of Cliff Lambert. And he kind of, you know, thought, no, no, you're not. You're not doing this. Not, Not. Not with me, you're not. I'm going to find out what happened, because, like, the bank said to Tyson, like, you know, and the cops said to Tyson, like, we're not going to really do anything until someone gets hurt. You know, it's just one guy stealing somebody else's money, and you got your money back from the bank. So, you know, we're not going to knock ourselves out. Well, you know, let's say that San Francisco PD had gone after Danny and that he had been locked up. I don't know what would have happened, but Cliff Lambert might. Might still be alive. And part of what happened here was that, you know, conning somebody is not perceived as serious a crime as conning somebody and then killing them. And unfortunately, you know, none of the brakes were put on until Cliff Lambert was already gone. You know, I got to say one more thing about this, which is Dave, who's joining us today, one of the two producers is not just responsible for following this thing, because he's not just a producer, but he's also a video editor and. And photographer. And so, you know, normally we say, you know, you can listen to this episode. It's right on the podcast feed. Right. But I would Urge you to go to Peacock and watch this episode. Because part of what made this such a great episode are those pictures. And part of why that all works is because of Dave, who was largely responsible for the sort of look of this and of making Palm Springs a character. And looking at this episode, in addition to just listening to it, is worth your time. And that's because of Dave.

[Lester Holt]

Well, Dave, thank you, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

All right.

[David Ketterling]

Palm Springs is such a beautiful place. I mean, sometimes you can just point the camera and you get gold. But I really appreciate that, Josh. It was a long journey, really was.

[Lester Holt]

So at the end, the big surprise was Cliff. And this multimillion dollar art collection was not what it seemed.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, look, this is a story in which nothing was what it seemed. And Cliff Lambert, rest his soul, bragged himself into an early grave. He told everybody how much money he had. He told everybody how valuable his art was. And it was all B.S. like, you know, Clifford. I mean, and again, like. Like, how stupid were these killers? This guy had run an art reproduction business. Like, this guy sold that phony art. Like, you think none of it was on it. You think he sells that, but he's got the real thing on his walls. Like, I mean, that wasn't a giant leap of logic. But these criminals, these murderers, could not figure that out.

[Lester Holt]

So I can't let you guys get out of here with talking about Barbara Wisby, who was a terrific character, gave a lot of insight into the lifestyle in Palm Springs. How did you come across her?

[David Ketterling]

We found her through Karen Devine at KESQ in Palm Springs. She's the anchor out there. And she's like, have you talked to Cliff's friend Barbara yet? And I'm no. And she's like, well, she's a talker. And I was like, great. When I did this thing, I did producer booking interviews. And so we kind of had a chat, and I sat her down. I said, you know, Barbara, you know Palm Springs. What do you love about it? And she's like, it's such a diverse place. You know, come one, come all, come short, come tall, come fat, come slim, you can all get in.

[Lester Holt]

And I was like.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And you're like, that's getting on television? Yeah. That's going. Yeah.

[David Ketterling]

So I'm like, wow. And then the Barbara Isms just kept coming.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Barbara's one of those people that, you know. And I'm sure all the other correspondents on Dateline, you know, would agree with me about this, which is, after you interview them, you think, like, were you a witness to any other crimes, Because I'll put you in any story that you want to talk about. Yeah.

[Lester Holt]

Whose idea was it to put Mankiewicz in the driver's seat of a car? And it's. By the way, it's not the first time this season we've seen you, Josh, at the wheel.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yes. Well, okay, I was. I was not at the wheel. I was in the back of the car where I can do a lot less damage. And with Barbara, who was smoking innumerable cigarettes, we had the top down. And I love how Barbara says to me, do you mind if I smoke? I'm thinking, like, as if there's any way I could stop you. Right. You know, I'm like, yeah, go ahead. First of all, you know, we should do more stories like that. Right. In which we're driving around with the person. A lot of times we do the story. We do interviews in cars, but one of us is driving. Either the person that's being interviewed, which frequently is a law enforcement representative, or. Or I'm driving and I'm looking at the camera. I've done that a few times. You know, the camera's in, like, the passenger seat. This was great because this chauffeured interview with me and Barbara in the backseat and her with her cigarette, Talking about how LaRue Cliff's parties were, which is a word I had never heard before and have never heard since.

[David Ketterling]

Is it a word?

[Lester Holt]

We don't.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, it's a Barbara word. It's a barbarism. I'm willing to accept that it's a word. I don't know if Webster's would agree with me, but, hey, why not?

[Lester Holt]

We'll take a break here. When we come back, we're going to listen in on social media, say what folks are asking or curious about in this program.

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[Lester Holt]

All right, welcome back. Josh and Dave Ketterling. We've got several questions about the crime scene that we want to bring to you. Let's take a listen.

[Sponsor/Promo Voice (e.g., Julio Vaqueiro or National Debt Relief announcer)]

Hi, this is Amy in Massachusetts. I'm calling to ask how the crime investigators missed the blood that would have been in the kitchen or the car.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Trunk and were they not using luminol?

[Sponsor/Promo Voice (e.g., Julio Vaqueiro or National Debt Relief announcer)]

Because I've learned about luminol on Dateline and it seems to work in most cases.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Thank you for another great episode. I thought it wasn't possible to clean a crime scene so effectively that modern forensic techniques. And it's not just luminol who, by the way, should be paying us some kind of royalty. It's not just luminol. There's a couple other products like that. But I would have thought that modern forensic techniques would bring out blood. I mean, the whole point of that is it finds blood and bodily fluids even after you try to clean them up, even after you make a really good effort to clean them up. But they didn't. A certain amount of time had gone by that might have helped. I'm sure they bleached it. And by then the bleach had probably the bleach smell had disappeared because it wasn't like they were there the day after Cliff died. Maybe they shouldn't have been grifters. Maybe they should have been house cleaners because they might have been better at that.

[Lester Holt]

Okay, here's one. We had a lot of viewers weighing in about Danny's sociopath cousin, Dennis.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hi, this is Catherine from South Carolina.

[David Ketterling]

What was the experience like interviewing someone.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Who actually identified as a sociopath?

[David Ketterling]

Thanks so much.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, hi, Katherine. Look, I'm not sure I have ever interviewed anyone who self identified as a sociopath. That was a little surprising. I also need to tell Dennis Murphy that Dennis Backwards is sinned I don't think he's aware of that. You know, Dennis, Danny's cousin, was a very interesting guy and a very important guy for our story because he tells us all kinds of things that happen behind the scenes and, you know, at this point has not faced any charges.

[David Ketterling]

Yeah, he just kept himself out of it.

[Lester Holt]

And here's Milo on Facebook. She adds, she says this about Dennis. The self proclaimed sociopath appeared most likable out of all these criminals. That doesn't say a lot, guys.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That's not. That's not the best commercial for you. When somebody who says, I'm a sociopath. But yes, I agree, he was by far the most rational of all of those people.

[Lester Holt]

And then our viewer, Milo, goes on to say about the motive, I understand money was the motive, but how. I still don't get why those losers had to kill him since they knew very well how to con people without violence. Sickening. But it's just very confusing. I think it's actually, it's a very fair point. I did find myself wondering about that, that, you know, you guys know how to convince. Why kill?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, well, I mean, look, you know, I think originally, and Dave, check me on this, but I mean, I think originally the plan was to con Cliff out of money. The plan was, you know, Danny. What? Part of Danny's backstory, don't know how much of this or any of it is true, is that he was abused as a younger man and that he wanted to create an app that would allow people to track sexual predators or people who were registered sex offenders in real time so you'd know if you were near them. Danny originally approached Cliff with was, I want you to participate in this business venture with me. And when. When Cliff didn't bite on that and in fact threw Danny out of his house for sort of, you know, going through his computer and going through his office. That's, I think, when Danny also got the idea, wait a minute, if we disappear this guy, no one will notice. And so this kind of escalated, this original plot escalated to separating Cliff from his money, to killing him, selling his house, his possessions and his artwork.

[David Ketterling]

I would say also it was like, you know, they were all kind of trying to one up each other on who's the better con, you know, including Dennis. And then when Kashal got out of jail or out for the jewelry heist, you know, I'm thinking maybe he was a little bit desperate or something. And it escalated at that point. I mean, Danny's whole thing was he was financial crimes up until Cliff Lambert came into the picture and Danny and.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And there is no allegation or evidence that Danny was present when Cliff was killed. I mean, it is a little bit like he was the, the, the, the director of this plan because he sent all those texts. But Danny definitely wasn't there at the time that Cliff was killed.

[Lester Holt]

And we have, before we get out of here, we have a video question from one of our dateline ambassadors, Chuck Deezy, 76. Let's give this a watch high Dateline Hi, Josh MANKIEWICZ.

[Sponsor/Promo Voice (e.g., Julio Vaqueiro or National Debt Relief announcer)]

It's Charles, aka ChuckDeezy76.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

My question is for Josh. There are a lot of amazing fashions in last week's episode. I just want to know, was your tie blood stained? I think you're sitting in an interview. It's like dark blue at the top and then it starts to get red.

[Lester Holt]

And the tie actually matches your jacket. Please let me know.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Thanks in advance. Bye. Hi, Chuck. Daisy. No, I do not have a blood stained tie. Although it did kind of look like that. No, it's just a blue and red striped tie. But great to see Chuck Deasy, who is a friend of our broadcast and literally one of our most loyal viewers. Chuck, you rock.

[David Ketterling]

You did bring the outfits in this show, though, Josh. You always look dapper, but you did look great in this show.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I was trying to look very LaRue and you did.

[Lester Holt]

All right. Well, guys, that's gonna do it. Talking Dateline. Remember, if you have any questions about our program, about the stories we're covering, you can catch us 24. 7 on social media @datelinenb. If you have a question for Talking Dateline, leave it for us in a voicemail. The number is 212-413-5252. Or send us a video on socials for a chance to be featured on a future episode. We'll see you Friday on Dateline NBC. Thanks for listening, everyone. So long.