Talking Dateline: The Room Downstairs

Summary

Dateline NBC – Talking Dateline: "The Room Downstairs"

Episode Release Date: December 4, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of Talking Dateline, host Josh Mankiewicz engages in a deep dive conversation with Andrea, a seasoned correspondent, about the gripping true-crime story featured in the Dateline episode titled "The Room Downstairs." This summary encapsulates their discussion, highlighting key points, insights, and the intricate details of the case that captivated audiences.

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Case Overview

"The Room Downstairs" centers around the mysterious death of Robert Cantor, a 59-year-old man whose body was discovered in a suburban New Jersey home engulfed in flames in March 2011. Initially presumed to be a tragic house fire, authorities quickly suspected foul play upon discovering that Cantor had been shot in the head, indicating a deliberate attempt to cover up murder by setting the house ablaze.

Josh outlines the foundational elements of the case:

• Location & Timing: The incident occurred near the George Washington Bridge, linking suburban New Jersey to the bustling heart of Manhattan, New York City.

• Discovery: Firefighters found Cantor's body in the basement bedroom, raising suspicions due to his unusual lack of attempt to escape the fire, which fire investigators noted as atypical for a healthy individual in such a situation.

Andrea confirms the gravity of the findings:

Andrea [03:10]: "This was not a death by fire, not a death by burning or smoke inhalation or anything like that. It was cold-blooded murder."

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Primary Suspect: Tony Tung

The investigation swiftly pointed towards Tony Tung as the primary suspect. Cantor had been involved in a love triangle, engaging in an affair with Sophie, Tony's wife. This revelation introduced motives rooted in jealousy, passion, and revenge.

Key Points Discussed:

• Affair Revelation: Cantor openly admitted to his affair with Sophie, making the situation volatile and public.

• Circumstantial Evidence: Tony Tung's suspicious behavior, such as wiping his hard drive, raised red flags, although concrete evidence like a direct link to the crime scene was initially lacking.

Andrea elaborates on the challenges faced by law enforcement:

Andrea [04:40]: "The hardest part was proving it. ... they had all this circumstantial evidence, and they had a hard time proving that he went over to New Jersey from Manhattan that night."

Josh adds a comparative perspective by referencing similar cases and the evolution of forensic evidence:

Josh [02:56]: "This reminds me of Dawn Hackney... two other similar murders, arsons in that Teaneck, New Jersey area."

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Challenges in the Investigation

The 2011 timeline posed significant obstacles:

• Limited Surveillance: Unlike today's extensive camera networks, the lack of comprehensive video evidence made it difficult to place Tony at the crime scene definitively.

• Circumstantial Nature: While Tony's actions were suspicious, the absence of direct evidence necessitated reliance on pieced-together circumstantial evidence.

Andrea underscores the evolving landscape of forensic investigations:

Andrea [05:23]: "Now, more accurately, New York City has... multiple cameras... license plate readers... so many ways to catch people now on camera doing something they shouldn't be doing or at least providing a piece of the puzzle to a crime."

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Legal Proceedings and Conviction

Tony Tung faced legal battles that spanned multiple trials:

• First Trial: Arrested 14 months after the murder, Tony's first trial concluded with a guilty verdict after the jury deliberated for three days, a sign of the case's complexity.

• Conviction Overturned: The initial conviction was overturned, leading to a second trial where Tony was again found guilty in a much swifter verdict.

Josh reflects on the nature of circumstantial evidence in securing convictions:

Josh [07:50]: "Circumstantial evidence doesn't lie... Sometimes circumstantial evidence is much better than direct evidence."

Andrea concurs, emphasizing the cumulative power of multiple circumstantial factors:

Andrea [07:55]: "But when you start adding up all the pieces of circumstantial evidence, it gets to the point where, okay, who else would it be?"

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Behind the Scenes: Interviews and Insights

Andrea shares anecdotes from her interviews:

• Interview with Tony Tung:

  • Appearance: Tony's distinctive Himalayan sweater became a talking point, raising questions about his demeanor and the authenticity of his portrayal.

    Josh [11:15]: "I'm guessing you guys tried very hard to get Sophie to talk and she didn't want to, but you got Rob's sister, and she was great."

    Andrea [12:14]: "I couldn't believe that... that was his own sweater."

• Interview with Rob's Best Friend and Rob's Killer:

  • Rob's Relationships: Interviews with Rob's sister and friend Murdad provided a deeper understanding of Rob's character and his relationships.

    Andrea [16:45]: "She spoke about this wonderful relationship that she had with her brother."

    Josh [17:15]: "I thought your interview with Mayor Dodd was just so adorable... they had these silly nicknames for each other."

• Exclusive Clips:

  • Merdad's Account: A poignant clip reveals Merdad's reflections on Rob's innocence and the unfolding tragedy.

    Murdad [17:51]: "I introduced myself... He's not a bad guy."

    Josh [19:10]: "Or if somebody's wearing an incredibly garish sweater."

---

Emotional and Social Dynamics

The episode delves into the emotional turmoil experienced by all parties involved:

• Sophie’s Predicament: Caught between her unfaithful husband Tony and her true love Rob, Sophie becomes the catalyst for the ensuing tragedy.

• Rob’s Noble Nature: Rob's attempts to mediate and diffuse tensions highlight his compassionate character, further complicating Tony's motives.

Andrea reflects on the destructive consequences:

Andrea [22:10]: "I know Sophie had finally found her true love, you know, in Rob. And yeah,... Tony ends up killing her one true love."

Josh [22:42]: "It's heartbreaking and in the process ruining everybody's life."

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Conclusion

"The Room Downstairs" serves as a poignant narrative exploring the depths of human emotions and the catastrophic impact of unresolved conflicts. Through Talking Dateline, Josh Mankiewicz and Andrea offer listeners an in-depth analysis of the case, shedding light on the complexities of circumstantial evidence, the challenges in criminal investigations, and the profound personal stories intertwined within true-crime mysteries.

Andrea's behind-the-scenes insights and exclusive interview clips enrich the understanding of the case, emphasizing the importance of comprehensive storytelling in true-crime journalism. This episode underscores Dateline NBC's commitment to unraveling compelling mysteries and delivering nuanced narratives that resonate with audiences.

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Notable Quotes

• Andrea [03:10]: "This was not a death by fire, not a death by burning or smoke inhalation or anything like that. It was cold-blooded murder."

• Josh [07:50]: "Circumstantial evidence doesn't lie... Sometimes circumstantial evidence is much better than direct evidence."

• Andrea [07:55]: "But when you start adding up all the pieces of circumstantial evidence, it gets to the point where, okay, who else would it be?"

• Andrea [16:45]: "She spoke about this wonderful relationship that she had with her brother."

• Murdad [17:51]: "I introduced myself... He's not a bad guy."

• Andrea [22:10]: "I know Sophie had finally found her true love, you know, in Rob. And yeah,... Tony ends up killing her one true love."

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Final Thoughts

For those intrigued by the intricate web of motives and the pursuit of justice, "The Room Downstairs" offers a compelling exploration of one family's tragedy. Talking Dateline provides a comprehensive examination, ensuring that listeners are fully engaged and informed, whether they are long-time fans or new to Dateline NBC's gripping storytelling.

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This summary is intended to provide a comprehensive overview of the Talking Dateline episode on "The Room Downstairs," encapsulating the essential discussions and insights shared by host Josh Mankiewicz and correspondent Andrea.

Transcript

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hi everybody, I'm Josh Mankiewicz and we are talking DATELINE Today with Andrea. Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea]

Hi, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

This episode of yours is called the Room Downstairs and if you in the audience have not listened to it, it's the episode right below this one on your DATELINE podcast feed. So go there and listen now for this talking dateline. Andrea has two extra interview clips that did not make it into the broadcast. So to recap, this was March 2011, in suburban New Jersey, just across the George Washington Bridge from Manhattan and New York City, a house was engulfed in flames. Firefighters found a body in a basement bedroom, belonged to a 59 year old guy named Robert Cantor. And police did have a feeling that it was more than a standard house fire. Turned out they were right because he had been shot in the head and that the fire was a kind of a cover up. So this case sort of takes us to the oldest motive in the book, which is jealousy, passion, revenge and a love triangle. Familiar shape to anybody who watches Dateline. That went very, very wrong. So let's talk dateline. You know everything about this from the beginning, from when you first, you know, the guy first sees the smoke coming from across the street, the guy who's fixing his tire, like you immediately think, yeah, there's going to be more to it than just somebody dies in a. And I thought it was very interesting what the fire investigators said, that when you see a healthy person, not somebody who's, you know, confined to their bed or something, a guy who's 59 years old, they don't stay in the bed, they're trying to get out, you find them near the door or they're clearly trying to get out of the place where the fire is happening. And that. That didn't happen in this case. And that was in itself suspicious.

[Andrea]

It sure didn't. And of course, Rob had been shot, so, you know, once they got a closer look at the body, this was not a death by fire, not a death by burning or smoke inhalation or anything like that. It was cold blooded murder.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

This reminds me of Dawn Hackney, the woman who was killed in Bremerton, Washington, in a podcast I did called Mortal Sin, in which it was thought that she died in a fire. Turned out that her husband had strangled her before the fire began. So, you know, there were two other kind of similar murders, arsons in that Teaneck, New Jersey area.

[Andrea]

I know, strange.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right around the time of Rob's death. And so police clearly were at least wondering whether this had to do with one of those. It certainly does leap out at you from the beginning. What do you think? You think Tony Tung knew about those?

[Andrea]

Oh, that's a good question. I never thought of. It's possible that he, you know, did it that way because he had researched crime in the area. I mean. Oh, that's. That's a good observation, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, they'd been in the paper, like, you know, you could have. You could have seen it, and they.

[Andrea]

Were so eerily similar.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Andrea]

You know, I don't know.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I have to believe that in this case, Tony Tung was the main suspect sort from the get go. I mean, Rob had to tell people, you know, I'm having an affair with this woman, Sophie. And by the way, her husband was not happy. Like, that's not the kind of thing you keep to yourself.

[Andrea]

Yeah. I mean, the hardest part was proving it. You know, they suspected him very quickly, but they had all this circumstantial evidence, and they had a hard time proving that he went over to New Jersey from Manhattan that night. That was the hard part. But, like, things like him wiping his hard drive, I mean, it looks really bad, you know, but like, where's the proof that he went over the bridge?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

This was in 2011. This was sort of when there were cameras in some places, but not every place. Like, sort of one imagines that if that murder were committed today, there would be video and there would be. There'd be a way to place Tony at the scene.

[Andrea]

More accurately, New York City now has. Must have a camera. Multiple cameras, it seems, on every. Every corner, like, and then that's not even including the business. I'm talking city cameras. And then there's the businesses. And then there's cars with cameras now, the license plate readers, you know, that they have now on taxicabs and garbage trucks that are hired by insurance companies and law enforcement. And, I mean, there's so many ways to catch people now on camera doing something they shouldn't be doing or at least providing a piece of the puzzle to a crime.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

The prosecutor was pretty clear with you. I thought that he believed that somebody else had helped Tony Tong get from Manhattan to New Jersey to cover his tracks, that it wasn't just, you know, he took a cab, and the cab driver didn't realize who he was taking or why he was taking it and didn't remember it later. Like, he makes it sound like it's an actual co conspirator, and nobody ever got arrested for that. I mean, the feeling you get is that whoever that was, if that person doesn't exist, they're getting away with it.

[Andrea]

Yeah, there was. There was some talk of, and this is all alleged, that some people in Tony's world that he may have had some connections to a gang, some bad people. Tony Tung has denied any allegations that he's somehow connected to gang violence and, you know, has maintained his innocence throughout this. It just was very circumstantial, as I said. You know, there was no smoking gun. There was no. Like, we caught him buying the murder weapon that matched the bullet. Like, nothing was concrete. But as we know, you don't need the smoking gun to put someone away for murder. It's all those little pieces that add up for a jury.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, I mean, I've said this in the past, but there's this sense that, you know, out there in the public, that, as you know, that the circumstantial evidence sort of is lesser, that it doesn't count as much. I mean, here's the thing about circumstantial evidence. It doesn't lie. Like, he did erase his hard drive at that time that night. He, you know, circumstantial evidence can't be accused of forgetting to put on its eyeglasses. Circumstantial evidence can't be accused of being angry at the defendant and slanting its testimony for that reason. Circumstantial evidence is whatever it is. You know, there's no other way to interpret that. So sometimes circumstantial evidence is much better than direct evidence.

[Andrea]

It is. And, I mean, if all you had was that he erased his hard drive, that's it.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Andrea]

Okay. Well, that's not a great circumstantial case. But when you start adding up all the pieces of circumstantial evidence, it gets to the point where, okay, who else would it be?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Well, you know, he leaves the apartment at different times than he says. His timeline does not match up. Rob's wife, who got some insurance money as a result of this, you know, she would be someone police would look at. She clearly was not involved. You know, those kind of things also sort of end up pointing law enforcement more and more and more toward Tony, who's a natural suspect. He's the husband whose wife is cheating on him with the person who killed.

[Andrea]

Yeah, he was angry. He didn't want his wife seeing this man and he didn't want his daughters being around the man. And what was so interesting about Tony was he was sort of portrayed as this like, you know, the great dad who like made the lunches and went to the school meetings and all that, but he had an evil streak in him.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Okay, when we come back, Andrea has a behind the scenes story about her interview with Tony Tongue.

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

Let me ask you a couple things about Tony Duncan, because when I see him in the interview and he's wearing that atrocious sweater. Right. You know, which is clearly not prison wear, I think to myself, oh, okay. He's either not the guy or he was acquitted. Now, for those of you who are listening, who have not seen the episode, we have included a link to a photo from that interview in the episode description. Take a look.

[Andrea]

So that jail was, like, so hot in there. And it was actually the producer who brought that sweater to the jail. And then I got there and the AP was there, Britney. And she had told the producer, I could run over to Macy's and grab, like, a polo shirt or something. He's like, no, no, this is good. This is good. And Tony Tung is, like, wanted to wear it. You know, that was his choice. And actually this producer. That was his own sweater.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

This was Tim Beecher.

[Andrea]

I couldn't believe that. Well, I wasn't going to name him, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Oh, I'm absolutely going to name him.

[Andrea]

I didn't know if he'd really. Okay. It was his sweater.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That sweater is hideous.

[Andrea]

It was a Himalayan sweater. And it was scratchy.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right, right.

[Andrea]

And Tony Tung is, like, sweating, which, you know, when you're trying to defend yourself for murder, I guess you don't want to look like you're sweating during the interview.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I know.

[Andrea]

And the other. And then I thought to myself was that this is so crazy, this sweater, that people are going to think that he's not in jail, because who the heck would wear that sweater? I'm surprised there's not, like, a jail rule. No itchy green Himalayan sweaters.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Well, I'm pretty sure there is now.

[Andrea]

Well, anyway, the sweater has lived on, and the sweater almost is another character in the show.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

It is. And I totally bought it. I thought, well, either he beat the charges or he's not going to get charged. And I'm wrong about him. So this case took a while. I mean, he was arrested, like, 14 months after the murder.

[Andrea]

Yeah. Because they didn't have, you know, it was such a fact finding. Right. Gathering. And there's so many cases where it's not perfect, but it's kind of one of those now or never. Right, right. Like, let's go for it, you know, and that's. And honestly, sometimes that all that's all it is, is we're not going to get any better. We're not we don't feel like we're going to, barring a witness coming forward or a confession. We're, we're just not going to find anything else at this point. So let's just do it.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Clearly, some people were not expecting a guilty verdict because this was not some, like, overwhelming slam dunk case.

[Andrea]

And the jury was out for a while. Yeah. So they were clearly, they were struggling to reach a verdict.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Three days, which is a long time.

[Andrea]

Yeah.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And then his conviction is overturned. You know, there's this belief that when that verdict is entered and the jury comes back, like, well, that's it, you know, there's not going to be any more here. And then turns out a couple years later, you're back to square one, essentially.

[Andrea]

Yeah. And. But it didn't work for him. Guilty again.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

What do you think made the difference between the first trial and the second trial? Because the first trial, the jury was out for a long time. I think sort of a lot of people expected a mistrial. The second one, you know, it was, the jury was only out for a couple of hours.

[Andrea]

I mean, I mean, who knows if it was the defense attorney or, you know, it's like with jurors, it's like a box of chocolates. Right. You never know what you're going to get. I mean, it's all walks of life. It's like a game of roulette.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

After the break, Andrea is going to share two podcast exclusive clips that did not make it into the broadcast. One with Rob's best friend and the other from Rob's killer.

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

I'm guessing you guys tried very hard to get Sophie to talk and she didn't want to, but you got Rob's sister, and she was great.

[Andrea]

She was fantastic. Yeah, we were so grateful that his sister spoke to us, and she was so lovely, and she. She spoke about this wonderful relationship that she had with her brother. And, you know, I was just happy. Finally somebody was talking about Rob, you know, other. And yes, his friend spoke to us, who was wonderful. Murdad. But it was so wonderful to have a family member saying such nice things about Rob and, you know, really stand up for her brother and let us know what he was all about.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. I thought your interview with Mayor Dodd was just so adorable. I mean, he seems like a great guy. And the closeness that he felt with Rob and clearly still feels all these years later is very obvious. I mean, that's a. He really loved his friend, like, and they loved each other. They had these silly nicknames for each other, and they were funny. They were so funny.

[Andrea]

Yeah. You know, and Mer Dodd was the perfect person to talk about Rob and to bring Rob to life for us.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So here's a clip that did not make the broadcast from your interview with Merdad.

[H]

And I truly believe if he were alive today and this heinous man was in prison, he said, murdoch, maybe we should buy some cookies and go see him. When the first time this whole thing happened, he went to his house and he called me. They said, murdoch, I'm running late. He came to see me. I said, who's he? He kept saying, he. I said, who? He said, tony. I couldn't connect the dots. Then I realized he said, I'll see you in a few minutes. So he showed up at work. He looked disheveled. I made the coffee. We sat down. He explained to me. I told him, how did you let him in? It's a bizarre behavior.

[Andrea]

You mean just showing up like that?

[H]

You thought that Was bizarre to knock at somebody's door. How did he find the house? Right? I mean, it's not that Roberto was a famous person.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

It's. Right.

[H]

He was a celebrity. Or.

[Andrea]

And Tony came back more times.

[H]

A second time, he let him in again. He said, oh, I feel sorry for him.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, if I'm in that situation, I'm not letting that guy in my house. I know why he's there. I know he's ticked off at me. I'm gonna be like, hey, look, you should probably talk to your wife about this. Like, this is not. This is between the two of you. This is not about you and me, you know, But I would not be like, hey, come on in. Let's have coffee. Let's be buz.

[Andrea]

That's a really good point. Yeah. It was Rob, right, that he. He wanted to diffuse things. He. He wanted to, you know, give this man what he needed, you know, as far as, like, understanding what was happening in the relationship. And, I mean, that was very nice of him to. To say, you know what? Let's talk it out. And you. You know, everyone.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You.

[Andrea]

You have friends that you're so frustrated because you're like. You can see from the outside. Don't do that. Like, don't let them in. Or if someone's dating someone that you don't think is the right person or that's not a good person, and that person can't see that. Maybe.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Or if somebody's wearing an incredibly garish sweater.

[Andrea]

That's sweaters. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Now we have a different piece of sound about the same thing. This is Tony Tong telling you about those visits to Rob. Let's listen to that.

[Andrea]

You decide to go pay this Rob Cantor a visit. That's a bold move. Take us to what happened.

[I]

I introduced myself. I say, you know, my name is Tony. I'm Sophie's husband. Can I come in and talk to you? He was like, okay, yeah, sure. So I walked in.

[Andrea]

He just invited you in.

[I]

He has to stay a little bit, but, you know, he invited me in.

[Andrea]

Are you there to tell him to stop seeing Sophie?

[I]

That's the end. I'd like to find out what's going on first.

[Andrea]

What did you gain from this visit?

[I]

No, that was what I gained from the visit. I gained the knowledge of who this person is and how this person's gonna behave later on. He's not a bad guy.

[Andrea]

Did you tell Sophie that you had gone to see him?

[I]

No. He did.

[Andrea]

And how did she react to that?

[I]

Of course you're yelling And I tell her, you know how I tell her the same thing I'm telling you right now.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I don't know how you can not see this love triangle, you know, from Sophie's point of view, for example, or Rob's, and not think to yourself, this is going to head in a direction I don't want it to head in. Like, they did not seem to see that Rob seemed to think, no, no, I'll win this guy over the way I win everybody over. And Sophie did not seem to perceive the danger that. I mean, your husband has found out about the affair. He's been cyber stalking you, he read all your emails, he's learned everything about this affair and now he's going to confront the guy you're having the affair with. That's when like alarm bells should be going off. Like, this is the time to start taking this extre seriously.

[Andrea]

Right.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, one of the things that, one of the things Meredith said is Rob died so Sophie could be free.

[Andrea]

That was so.

[Progressive]

Wow.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Andrea]

So profound.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, those two loved each other. I think that's true.

[Andrea]

I know Sophie had finally found her true love, you know, in Rob. And yeah, I mean, she, it was like Tony had the shackles on her, right? Like he wouldn't let go and he was so angry. And then she finds sweet, calm, patient Rob who's, you know, appears to be her soulmate, but she can't shed Tony and then, and then Tony ends up killing her one true love.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

It's heartbreaking and in the process ruining everybody's life.

[Andrea]

Yes, yes.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right? His, Rob's and Sophie's and probably the kids.

[Andrea]

It's awful.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

It's the worst. It's the worst. And I wish we never see it, but we see it all the time. That's it for this episode of Talking Dateline. Thank you, Andrea. Before we go, we wanted to tell you about something that we're trying now. You can now send us audio of your questions and so your voice might be featured on an upcoming episode. Make a recording of your message on your phone and send it to us as a direct message on Facebook, Instagram or X, formerly Twitter. And it doesn't have to be about the episode itself. And no topic is off limits. Although some language is not going to get you on Talking Dateline, but you can also still reach us the old fashioned way. Now this is the old fashioned way. The OG way on social @datelinenbc. Also, don't forget to listen to my all new podcast which is called Deadly Mirage. The first two episodes are now available wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad, free listening and for early access to episodes. Okay, that's talking Dateline. Thank you. See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC. With Sling, you get all your favorite news programs for just $40 a month. What if I only watch news about whether or not I can afford a boat? $40 a month?

[Andrea]

What about news about how I lost.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

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What about news I only watch so I have something to make small talk about, not uncomfortable situations. Did you know police captured five runaway zebras in Washington yesterday?

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