Keith Morrison (2:51)

Yeah, you've got it. You've got it. Right? She was that person. She certainly struck me as being a very smart woman. Additionally, she felt she had a calling, and that was one of the ironies of this. Of this story.

Josh Mankiewicz (3:05)

Her.

Keith Morrison (3:05)

Her. Her goal in life was to be a defense attorney who would represent the very kind of person who. Who wound up killing her.

Josh Mankiewicz (3:14)

Right.

Keith Morrison (3:15)

And ironically, again, her professor, who was teaching her the techniques of representing such people, went ahead and represented him. And she. The feeling among her. Her friends and compatriots at law school was had she survived this attack somehow, she would probably have defended him anyway. She was just that kind of person.

Josh Mankiewicz (3:36)

I. I think that's probably unusual as people who come out of law school wanting to work for the PD's office. I mean, some people want to do defense work, but wanting to work for, you know, essentially people who can't afford lawyers is something else.

Keith Morrison (3:49)

Yeah, that's a. It's a. It's a rare thing, and it doesn't pay a lot compared to other kinds of legal work. So it's.

Josh Mankiewicz (3:55)

No. And it's underfunded, and you don't have. Every time you go to court, there's a. You know, the deck is very heavily stacked in favor of the prosecution because they have the police department, and you, you know, you have maybe a, you know, know an investigator who's working on a bunch of different cases. It's just not. You're starting off behind the eightball a lot of the time, and you're juggling a zillion cases, so you have to really want to do it.

Keith Morrison (4:18)

Some of the loveliest people I know do that kind of work. They tilted windmills their whole lives and don't make very much money for it. Anyway, that's. That's one of the aspects of this. Of this story that appealed to me. And. And there's also a McGuffin in it, in. In the sense that they probably wouldn't have discovered so easily what happened, gotten on the right trail to find out what happened. Had it not been for the fact that it was in Macon, Georgia, and it was hot as hell that day. The torso was. Is creating an odor.

Josh Mankiewicz (4:50)

Yeah. And like, literally, like, if the trash had been picked up a day sooner, if the police had gotten there three hours later, you know, yeah, the trash.

Keith Morrison (4:59)

Truck was on the way. I mean, it was. And I think that probably the killer had expected and planned for that trash truck to be there before there was any hoo ha about what happened. And that moment in the story, that really stuck out to me, this guy is. He's a terrible, terrible person, but also not terribly bright. And when he is confronted with the recognition that somebody announces that they have found the body and his reaction to that.

Josh Mankiewicz (5:27)

It's in the middle of that TV interview now. Yes, you've got to be prepared if you're the killer, or you would think you'd be prepared for when you're told that she is dead, because you're the only person that knows that is dead at that point. So when somebody says, hey, we found her and she's no longer with us, you should be prepared. I can't believe it. That's the worst news. But instead, he's. He's like, wait, they found the body. Body? He says, yeah, that was. Yeah, that's not the way you should laugh.

Keith Morrison (5:56)

But I mean, that was.

Josh Mankiewicz (5:57)

No, but I mean, it's astonishingly telling is what it is.

Keith Morrison (6:01)

Yeah. So the other thing, besides the hot day, as they're looking around, they found those. He. He had insisted that he was a celibate guy. He was waiting for marriage, and then they found those condoms. And he was so determined to retain the idea that he wasn't, you know, messing around, and therefore he couldn't have attacked her and had sex with her. So why do you have the condoms? And he, rather than, you know, give up his story, he then confesses that he stole them from a neighbor, which.

Josh Mankiewicz (6:30)

Allows them to arrest him.

Keith Morrison (6:31)

To arrest him and hold him. Well, they can continue their investigation because.

Josh Mankiewicz (6:34)

There certainly wasn't enough to arrest him for her murder at that point.

Keith Morrison (6:37)

Right, exactly.

Josh Mankiewicz (6:39)

So he talked himself right into the jailhouse. I think one of the lessons here is you. You never really know who's living next door. You know, I mean. I mean. I mean, I know my neighbors to say hello to. I certainly, you know, sure. You know, beyond that, I couldn't tell you much.

Keith Morrison (6:59)

And you've lived there for quite a while.

Josh Mankiewicz (7:00)

I have, I have. And I don't think anybody's spying on me. I think most people who get spied on don't think anyone's spying on them. What's interesting, you know, something we talk about all the time here, is how you need to listen to your instincts. And she had this sense that somebody was stalking her, following her. Something was up. She did and, and you know, her friends just kind of chalked that up to, well, you know, you know, men are always interested in her. You know, this is probably not a big deal. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Keith Morrison (7:31)

And it's one of the things that women have to put up with a lot is having, you know, men look at them whenever they costs possibly can including, you know, some creep peeping in the window once in a while.

Josh Mankiewicz (7:40)

Now let me ask you this, I don't know the answer to this. That video that they come up with that closes the case essentially, that that is taken obviously by him looking in her window. She's not in that video. Right. You don't ever actually see her.

Keith Morrison (7:59)

You don't ever actually see her. But you see him attempting to see her. You see his activities, her apartment that.

Josh Mankiewicz (8:06)

He'S looking into through the blinds. But he doesn't actually get any video of her. At least not that they recovered.

Keith Morrison (8:12)

That's right. But you know, his whole setup was exposed by that. Would they have got a conviction without it? I suspect they might have. But. But that certainly sealed the deal.

Josh Mankiewicz (8:21)

Steve McDaniel pleaded guilty, but years after confessing to the crime, he made a bunch of attempts to appeal his conviction. When we get back the the details revealed during his appeals and the surprising person who reveals them.

Keith Morrison (8:39)

This episode is brought to you by Progressive where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Quote now@progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

C (9:10)

Explaining football to the friend who's just there for the nachos. Hard tailgating from home like a pro with snacks and drinks everyone will love an easy win. And with Instacart helping deliver The Snack Time MVPs to your door, you're ready for the game in as fast as 30 minutes. So you never miss a play or lose your seat on the couch or have to go head to head for the last chicken wing. Shop game day favorites on instacart and enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three grocery orders offer valid for a limited time. Other fees and terms apply. Create your oasis with Thuma, a modern design company crafting simple elevated furniture from premium eco friendly materials. Thuma's core collection, the classic bed, nest, dresser and pillar bookshelf combines the technique of Japanese joinery with thoughtful design for timeless style and lasting quality assembly is quick and easy, taking just 5ish minutes with no tools required. Explore the full collection at Thuma Co or visit their flagship location in New York City. For $100 off your first bed, head to Thuma Co. That's Thuma Co.

Josh Mankiewicz (10:14)

A couple interesting things in this story, particularly from a storytelling point of view that I thought you did very well, as you always do. One was you just sort of barely mentioned the neighbor like he was, we wanted to help and he had some thoughtful things. You just mentioned that there's a neighbor who wants to help. But then clearly you've got it down to Joe, the ex boyfriend and David. Yeah. And then David, the current boyfriend. Right. And so you're thinking, if you're the audience, okay, it's one of them. And then you throw in the maintenance man and I'm like, okay, well, that's clearly who it is. Like, it's nearly probably the maintenance guy. It's neither Joe nor it's the maintenance man, obviously. And then it turns out, of course, it's somebody else entirely. And so from a Dateline storytelling point of view, I thought that was great.

Keith Morrison (11:06)

Well, that's very kind of you to say, Josh. Thank you.

Josh Mankiewicz (11:09)

When we're telling these stories, when we're writing them, is we have to do the storytelling in a way that it's not obvious from the get go what happened, but we also have to stay completely faithful to the truth. Like, we're not going to say, you know, the maintenance man was a suspect if he wasn't a suspect. We're not going to say the cops were looking at Joe and they were looking at David if they weren't. But they were.

Keith Morrison (11:34)

Yeah. Which brings up another little piece of advice that for, for people who may be listening to this, which is if you're pay careful attention to whether you're watching a program that is journalistically sound and you tell all the facts as best you possibly can. But then there's a scripted series that comes along that takes a point of view and therefore will fudge on certain details and will reduce the effect of some things and increase the effect of some other things. In other words, they're manufacturing a story out of raw material which may be true in the first place, but stops being true as you're telling it. Anyway, this character reminds me of a lot of other people we've done stories about. He is the Boogeyman. And Boogeyman exist. They're very, very rare, but they do exist and they get all the attention.

Josh Mankiewicz (12:23)

And I mean Usually, almost always, the person who ends up being the culprit is the Joe of the story or the David of the story. Well, yes, usually it's almost never the random guy who was not on police radar, but sometimes it is.

Keith Morrison (12:39)

Those random psychopathic killers are very, very unusual. So sometimes I think. I worry that we might put a little too much fear into an audience, that there are those kind of people out there in numbers and they're targeting and watching and, you know.

Josh Mankiewicz (12:58)

Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, I'm gonna say upwards of 90% of Dateline stories involve some sort of relationship between the killers.

Keith Morrison (13:07)

Of course.

Josh Mankiewicz (13:07)

Yeah. They're not unknown to each other.

Keith Morrison (13:10)

And in fact, I think that probably mirrors to some de. The statistics in, you know, murder investigation.

Josh Mankiewicz (13:17)

I mean, the person who leaps out of the bushes and attacks someone and rapes them, that's the. That's the least common kind of rape. Almost always. It's somebody that the victim knows. That's overwhelmingly likely, but that's sort of not widely known. And so people fear one maybe more than they should and fear the other maybe less than they should.

Keith Morrison (13:42)

Exactly the point. Yeah.

Josh Mankiewicz (13:43)

So since this happened, Steve McDaniel has tried to appeal his case in Georgia state courts.

Keith Morrison (13:50)

To interject only slightly, he tried to appeal the case even though he pleaded guilty to what he did, which.

Josh Mankiewicz (13:57)

Which usually means you give up any right to appeal. That's what a. Guilty.

Keith Morrison (14:01)

Generally speaking, yes.

Josh Mankiewicz (14:02)

Yeah. But he. In 2018, he claimed his constitutional rights were violated, asked for a new trial. He represented himself. He called one of his own defense attorneys as a witness in his case.

Keith Morrison (14:16)

Not the right move.

Josh Mankiewicz (14:18)

No, no, no. That backfired, because to do that, to call your attorney to testify in your appeal, he had to waive attorney client privilege.

Keith Morrison (14:28)

Sure.

Josh Mankiewicz (14:29)

Which means the attorney can now say anything that the defendant said to him during a time when that was privileged.

Keith Morrison (14:35)

And that attorney undoubtedly had stored all this stuff up for a long time, thinking he'd never be able to tell anybody.

Josh Mankiewicz (14:42)

Yeah.

Keith Morrison (14:42)

Well, until that opportunity came along.

Josh Mankiewicz (14:45)

What Stephen McDaniel's defense attorney, Floyd Buford, said when he could speak freely about what his client had shared with him. In other words, outside lawyer client privilege. Well, it's like something out of a horror movie. He testified that McDaniel had admitted to decapitating Lauren, cutting her fingers off and flushing them down the toilet. Really awful stuff. And he also said that McDaniel possessed some of the worst child porn that the attorney had ever seen. This normally would have been protected by privilege, but in this case, it wasn't and it's not what you want your defense attorney revealing in court that appeal didn't go anywhere.

Keith Morrison (15:24)

Well, yes, I guess he has a possibility after 30 years of getting out, but seems unlikely somehow.

Josh Mankiewicz (15:32)

So coming up next, your questions from social media.

C (15:40)

This cold and flu season, Instacart is here to help deliver all of your sick day essentials. Whether you're in prevention mode and need vitamins, hand sanitizer, and that lemon tea your nana swears by, or you're in healing mode and need medicine, soup and a lot more tissues, simply download the Instacart app to get sick day supplies that reinvigorate or relieve. Delivered in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first three orders. Excludes restaurant orders. Service fees and terms apply.

D (16:09)

Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you from daydreamer to multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com in the.

C (16:41)

Market for investment worthy bags, watches and fine jewelry. Rebag is the answer. Rebag is a luxury resale platform where each piece is carefully inspected by experts to ensure quality and authenticity. Use Rebag to buy and sell fines from the world's top brands, including Hermes, Chanel and Cartier. Head to Rebag.com to get 10% off your first purchase with code REBAG10.

Josh Mankiewicz (17:08)

Let's take your questions from social media.

Keith Morrison (17:10)

Good idea.

Josh Mankiewicz (17:11)

So a lot of people wrote to us saying that they lived in Macon at the time. They remember the coverage of this case.

Keith Morrison (17:17)

I will say this. I had not been before, before doing this story. I had not been to Macon, Georgia before and what a lovely place it is.

Josh Mankiewicz (17:26)

That's great.

Keith Morrison (17:26)

It has a history. I realize it is complicated, but it is, my gosh, some of those wonderful homes and the atmosphere is really, is really quite delightful.

Josh Mankiewicz (17:37)

Well, that's nice.

Keith Morrison (17:39)

Yeah. Just thought I'd add that I like.

Josh Mankiewicz (17:41)

Going places like that. I used to live in Atlanta. This was like 40 years ago. So I, I was, I was in Macon and other, other parts of Georgia back then a lot. You know, you loved Macon when you were there. Did people love you back? Were they nice to you?

Keith Morrison (17:58)

They were very nice to me. Yes, absolutely. But you know, I come on a TV guy. People are not going to be mean, I don't think.

Josh Mankiewicz (18:07)

No. A lot of questions about. About Lauren's dog. What became of Lauren's dog? Everybody wants to know.

Keith Morrison (18:14)

Well, it's an important thing. You know, the dog was a. Was part of her Persona. It was part of her life. And dogs. I don't know if you know this, Josh.

Josh Mankiewicz (18:21)

Yeah.

Keith Morrison (18:21)

But dogs are important to a lot of people.

Josh Mankiewicz (18:24)

Dogs. And in nearly every Dateline episode that I've done that involves a dog, there are social media questions about what happened to the dog.

Keith Morrison (18:33)

Of course. Of course. And in this case, the dog was, you know, went to live with Lauren's family. Right.

Josh Mankiewicz (18:40)

And if it had been there that night, it might have. Might have woken her up.

Keith Morrison (18:44)

Well, it might have. And because. Right. She had. She'd left the dog with him. Given the fact that they were writing their bar exams and there's a lot going on.

Josh Mankiewicz (18:52)

Another piece of bad luck. On the other hand, it may also have been that he waited until the dog wasn't there anymore.

Keith Morrison (18:59)

That's also possible. Yeah.

Josh Mankiewicz (19:02)

Gail Brown salvo on Facebook. Keith and I are on Facebook all the time. She says that this was such a sad story. So strange that the man who did this had a promising locker ahead of him and would end up destroying his life and the lives of this woman and her family. Which is all true. I will say that in most cases, I don't see people who end up being the killers. Sort of thinking about the ramifications of what happens. You know, I'm going to get caught. I'm going to, you know, end up in prison. My family will be ashamed of me. I'll. I'll impoverish them by. Because they had to hire an attorney, you know, you know, wreck that process. You know, I'll wreck somebody else's family's life by taking away this person.

Keith Morrison (19:44)

Right. I gather the desire to kill, to get sexual pleasure from killing a woman or a man. But generally speaking, a woman is so powerful, it's the only emotion that these folks can feel. They don't feel any compassion for a human being.

Josh Mankiewicz (20:04)

No. I mean, that guy presumably went into law for some reason, like he thought he could help people or he could help himself or he could help his family and he's going to be locked up.

Keith Morrison (20:16)

Or he would know how the system works so that he could dodge it. It's.

Josh Mankiewicz (20:19)

Right. So he can't really get away with it. Yeah.

Keith Morrison (20:22)

I'm reminded of Brian Coburger in Idaho facing those charges. There. And of course, he's still facing charges. He hasn't been convicted of anything yet. But he, you know, attempted to join a police force because he was kind of interested to see how the police would work. He, he wanted to be a lawyer.

Josh Mankiewicz (20:38)

Yeah, it's, I must say, I, I, I have only followed that case by watching your stories. But yeah, that is a weird story. And that's the kind of thing we were talking about earlier in which this is not a traditional Dateline defendant in which they're involved with or, or close friends with, you know, or married to somebody in the case.

Keith Morrison (20:57)

And they stand out because they're so unusual, so rare. You know, you, I remember them. You remember them. We all remember them. Because I do, because they are monsters. And the, and the monster, I'm not saying Brian Coburg is a monster. We don't know yet. He's not been convicted of anything. But, but the people who are, who do these things are monsters. And so they kind of fit into the template of the scary story we tell ourselves at night before we go to bed.

Josh Mankiewicz (21:23)

Well, that's a happy thought to go out on.

Keith Morrison (21:25)

Yes, exactly.

Josh Mankiewicz (21:26)

Thanks, Keith.

Keith Morrison (21:26)

Yeah. However, I spend my time thinking about you, Josh, and then I drift off to sleep happily.

Josh Mankiewicz (21:32)

Oh, that's nice. That's a sweet thought. Yeah. Just for the audience's benefit. None of that was true, Keith. Happy New Year.

Keith Morrison (21:42)

Happy New Year to you too, Josh.

Josh Mankiewicz (21:44)

And one more thing. I have a new podcast out called Deadly Mirage.

Keith Morrison (21:53)

It's called Deadly Mirage or something.

Josh Mankiewicz (21:55)

Deadly Mirage. We called it Deadly Mirage because the other like seven or eight titles that we thought of were all taken. My choice was Keith wasn't interested, but that apparently was also taken. But anyway, it's called Deadly Mirage and it's going to run on dateline as a TV episode Friday at 9:00.

Keith Morrison (22:15)

Isn't that interesting? That's sort of a clever idea.

Josh Mankiewicz (22:18)

If you've been listening to this podcast, you can now watch the TV program and you'll see what all these people look like. Oh, just to see what they're all places look like. Anyway, so Deadly Mirage, that's this Friday on Dateline. Right, so, and I hear some story.

Keith Morrison (22:33)

Josh, so congratulations on that.

Josh Mankiewicz (22:35)

Thank you very much. One more thing for Dateline premium subscribers, we have a new after the Verdict that will be available on January 9th. If you have any questions for us about our stories or about Dateline, you can reach us on social medialinenbc. See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.

D (23:09)

Where'd you get those shoes? Easy they're from dsw, because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you from daydreamer to multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com.