Keith Morrison (2:30)

I'm glad you asked that question. This is one of the things I enjoyed about about doing it. And because in the many stories that I, I have done and we have done in and around Las Vegas, which is a giving place for DATELINE over the years, you know, from the outside looking in, tourists going to Las Vegas, people going to gamble there, it's, it's a certain kind of place. Maybe it's exciting, maybe it's, you know, seems, you know, kind of something you do and leave there and don't tell your friends about. But there is a kind of a work a day world of Las Vegas where, you know, good, hard working, honest people go into work every day to work as cocktail waitresses, to work as firemen, to work as, you know, to make the city run. You know, Vegas is, is a, is a, in many ways a working class city. And then it's just got this very colorful strip down the middle of it with some colorful jobs associated with that.

Blaine Alexander (3:32)

Well, I mean, the thing about Vegas, for many of us who go there, there's a lot of money to be spent. But for people who work there, there's a lot of money to be made. I mean, I think this episode really showed a lot of people how lucrative being a cocktail waitress in Las Vegas can be, Right?

Keith Morrison (3:47)

Yeah. Maybe you have some, one kind of an idea of what a cocktail waitress would be like, the sort of work that he or she would do or the kind of money he or she would make. But then you just throw that out the window when you go to Las Vegas.

Blaine Alexander (4:02)

Yeah, you're making money. I mean, based on that, it certainly is reasonable to assume that in this episode that this could have very easily been, you know, what people would call a robbery gone wrong. That people know, okay, she's a cocktail waitress, she's really good at it, she's got a lot of tips. It makes sense to follow her and try and take her money.

Keith Morrison (4:21)

Well, your first thought, if you're investigating it, I would think would be here is a very attractive woman in the middle of the night heading home from work. So there's the possibility that somebody was chasing her for that, for some sort of sexual encounter with her. And there's a possibility somebody was trying to, you know, chasing her for her tips, which, you know, she would carry with her on the way home or might be carrying with her on the way home. Sure. So, yes, that's your first go to place.

Blaine Alexander (4:50)

Let's talk about this investigation. I mean, the first big surprise for me was that her house had been burglarized weeks earlier. And it was very creepy to hear what was taken from her house too.

Keith Morrison (5:00)

Well, yes, but, you know, as we've covered these kinds of stories, that is not that unusual. That sort of material is. And it's, you know, it is a creepy thing. And it also indicates that there's some danger in the vicinity. So it certainly is understandable they'd want to follow that up for sure and chase it down as much as they could. But it really just didn't go anywhere. Anywhere useful anyway.

Blaine Alexander (5:26)

I mean, you talked about the fact that they thought maybe it was some kids in the area they were questioning, they were looking at them. How long did they go down that road before they said, okay, this isn't going anywhere. Let's look somewhere else?

Keith Morrison (5:38)

Well, not that long, really. There were a lot of things that they looked into that just didn't go anywhere. It was just maybe in this case, as the police are investigating and chasing down leads and looking at this possibility and that possibility, the fact that they didn't look at George was a bit of a failure of the imagination, because, you know, like you, they recognized that this was a twofold. This was a upstanding person who had lived an upstanding life. There were no indications that he would do any such thing. And besides which, he was on a long shift at the fire department all night long and simply could not have committed that crime. So he had an absolute ironclad alibi.

Blaine Alexander (6:21)

Yeah, I think that alibi that when as I was watching this, just. Just kind of going in blind, that was what sealed it for me. He was working overnight at the fire station. You know, I mean, firefighters aren't going to lie on his behalf. Right. You would think he goes out on calls. That's something that, you know, you lock that down. Okay. He was there. He couldn't have done this. Let's look somewhere else. I was fooled. George had me fooled.

Keith Morrison (6:47)

But understandably so, because George was the kind of person who, you know, every guy probably grows up thinking, I ought to be. If I were a better person, I'd be like George. George was the all American. George was handsome. George was, you know, fun to talk to. George was good to be with. George was kind to all kinds of people. He had an opportunity to be a wealthy finance guy, and instead he chose to become a fireman and an EMT because he wanted to help people. And that was just George. He was like that to the whole community.

Blaine Alexander (7:20)

He was like an adult boy Scout. I mean, he really was. He was.

Keith Morrison (7:23)

That's well put. Yeah.

Blaine Alexander (7:26)

Let's talk a little bit about the two sides of George and George's relationship.

Keith Morrison (7:30)

With Shawna, you know, there are a great many people around the country who are married to a partner who at first their. Their strengths as a character, they're kind of maybe dominating strength as a character, somebody you're prepared to follow seems like exactly what you need. And, And. And you follow that person and you're happy to. To. To, you know, go along with what they want to do, and they will set the agenda in your marriage and in your life. But eventually that, you know, that the grip tightens and the control tightens and you cease to become an independent person. That's when violence follows, and it often follows when the woman in the relationship, usually the woman decides she has had enough of this. She cannot take it anymore. Maybe with the help of somebody else in the family, something creates a situation where she thinks, okay, I must. I've got to leave this relationship, or I'll just have no life at all. And because this person's just simply too controlling, and that's a very dangerous situation.

Blaine Alexander (8:42)

You know, once you started revealing the troubles in their marriage, the signs were troubling. I think that video clip that showed, you know, them trying to take the family picture and him kind of, you know, snapping about like, okay, hold the camera this way, or here's how you should do this. Some people could look at that and say, okay, maybe he's just annoying, or, yeah, I wouldn't want to hang out with him. But that's not the sign of violence. But laid against the backdrop of everything else, it's such a disturbing video to see. Even in a small thing, wanting to have that control.

Keith Morrison (9:13)

Yes, yes. In the context of the rest of it, and by itself, that's maybe trying to be helpful, but in a way that you can tell that there's an element of control there that is a little uncomfortable.

Blaine Alexander (9:27)

And of course, while we're on this difficult subject, we want to share some very important information. If you or somebody that you know is experiencing domestic violence or relationship abuse, a good place to go for advice and for resources is the national domestic violence Hotline. That number is 800-799-safe again, 800-799-7233. Or you can text the word begin. That's B E G I n to the number 88788. Finally, you can go to the hotline.org and there's always someone there who can give you some resources. When we come back, we've got an extra clip from Keith's interview with George TFA's sister. Good morning.

Keith Morrison (10:14)

Welcome to Today.

Announcer (10:15)

From back to school to tackling your to do list. The Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season, and every morning we're here. Take it all along as the forecast calls for football all across the country, blockbuster stars, live concerts, and so much more. Wake up to where it's all happening.

Blaine Alexander (10:34)

We're getting back to all of it, and the best way to start is together.

Announcer (10:38)

Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7am on NBC. I'm Julio Vaquero, anchor of Noticias Telemundo. You can watch Dateline, the hit true crime series on Telemundo. And now you can listen to Daedline as a podcast. Stories of love and betrayal, of secrets revealed of the men and women who stand between evil and justice. Every twist and turn can now be heard in Spanish. With new mysteries arriving every week. Just search Dateline en Espanol wherever you get your podcasts and start listening. Hey, guys, Willie Geist here, reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with global music superstar podcast Bad Bunny to talk about his path from Puerto Rico to the top of the music world, his current residency at home in San Juan, and his latest venture into acting. You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.

Blaine Alexander (11:40)

I'm curious, when you spoke with Maria Keith, did you feel a sense of that struggle that she had? And on one hand, defending everything her brother did, Really? I mean, she had a response to everything that you laid out in the story. She did.

Keith Morrison (11:53)

I got the sense that she had gone through a struggle, yes. But that she didn't. She did not, she didn't hesitate to be absolutely in his corner in, in every respect and, and, you know, use the explanation that he was using that George's sister simply wouldn't let go of the idea that he couldn't possibly have done this. And she knew him as well as anybody could know him. That's the, you know, one of the tragic things about a story like this is that you, you recognize that nobody really knows even those closest to them. There, there are, you know, we all have secrets and we keep them buried deep sometimes. And someone you have lived with all your life and you think you, you know that person well enough that you could never, ever possibly get it wrong. And so you kind of put yourself out there for that person and then it turns out you, you are wrong. And it's hard to accept that. So especially hard to accept that when you love the person who has committed a terrible act and what do you do? Stop loving them immediately? No, you. You can't. You. You want somehow for this not to be true. So she was able to. To take situations with us. Others would say, okay, yeah, that means, you know, he did this terrible thing. And she could say, no, there's another explanation. There has to be. This. This isn't him.

Blaine Alexander (13:20)

I wonder, Keith, when you go into an interview like that, how do you approach such an interview?

Keith Morrison (13:27)

Well, you. Listen. I mean, it's. It's not up to us, as observers of the story to try to change somebody's mind. No, I'm. I'm very interested in what that person thinks. There are occasions in an interview where somebody is just a perpetrator, for example, is just being insistent about something which is obviously not true and is trying to pull the wool over your eyes, and you have to call them on it, of course. But. But a person like George's sister who is going to support him at every turn, who you or I might think, you know, it just. That's not. You got George wrong. Even though you lived with him your whole life, you don't know him entirely because he did this awful thing.

Blaine Alexander (14:13)

Yeah, there's. No.

Keith Morrison (14:14)

I don't want to go there. That's. She's allowed to have her point of view, and her point of view is a legitimate part of any story we're going to tell.

Blaine Alexander (14:22)

Absolutely.

Keith Morrison (14:23)

Yeah.

Blaine Alexander (14:23)

You know, to that point, we. We do have some extra sound of your interview with Maria, and this is from when she described her impressions of George and Shawna's relationship, and she said that she still had hope. Let's listen to a little bit of that.

Keith Morrison (14:40)

Did you talk to him during the course of this breakup?

Maria (George's sister) (14:44)

Yes. He was at my sister's house the summer before Shauna died, and it was pretty evident at that point that they were headed towards divorce. And my brother was. Had just had a very sad energy about him. He just. He was. He was glad to bring their daughter to the Bay Area, and so she could, you know, meet with the cousins and have good family time and take a break from Las Vegas. But he was sad.

Blaine Alexander (15:17)

He was.

Maria (George's sister) (15:19)

He was at a point where he didn't think it was going to be salvageable.

Keith Morrison (15:24)

What did he tell you about it and why it wasn't working?

Maria (George's sister) (15:26)

He just said. He was just so sad. His tone of voice was just sad, but again, in his gentle tone, he says, yeah, I guess it just isn't going to work out. I think Shawn and I are getting a divorce, and he. He was just devastated. You could tell he was. He was just devastated. And he.

Keith Morrison (15:44)

Did he tell you what the specifics of the problem?

Maria (George's sister) (15:48)

No, it just isn't happening. It's not working.

Keith Morrison (15:51)

And he must feel plain about Shauna in some way or other, even implicitly.

Maria (George's sister) (15:57)

No, actually, his characterization of Shauna or his descriptions of anything that interactions he and Shauna had really didn't change at all from when their marriage was doing well. I mean, oh, Shauna's going to do this. Oh, you know, we're going to go, Shauna and I are going to go to this for their daughter's birthday. Or it was. He never called her names, never said, oh, well, you know, in an aside manner, oh, I can't do this because Shadow wants this or that. You know, none of that kind of thing. It was, in fact, as I'm thinking about it, his characterization of her just never changed from when they were having, you know, a stable relationship to one that was ending.

Blaine Alexander (16:49)

That's such a striking account.

Keith Morrison (16:51)

It is. And he was very good at not revealing to the rest of the world what was really going on in his life right up until the very end. He was already convicted of the crime.

Blaine Alexander (17:07)

Before we go to the trial, I want to talk about Greyhound. In all of this. It was so disturbing to me that here is this clearly mentally ill man, clearly had a hard life, was having a hard life, and that this was the person that essentially, you know, evidence showed he used as the scapegoat and the criminal to take out his wife. I was just so disturbed by the way that Greyhound was used in all of this. I don't know, befriended and then turned into a killer on his behalf.

Keith Morrison (17:42)

Right. The chances that Greyhound would have been a killer under any other circumstances, I gotta think would be practically nil. You know, he's. He just. He was a troubled guy, sure, and he had a lot of issues, but he just wanted to be alone. He just wanted to be out there and. And then once have enough money to be able to buy food. And so he thought these people were helping him by giving him odd jobs to do.

Blaine Alexander (18:05)

I think what to me stood out was that it speaks to the way society sometimes discards people like a Greyhound, someone who's homeless, someone who, you know, has a dependency on drugs, on alcohol. And, you know, the theme was kind of repeated, well, why would you believe him over George, who was this great guy and this fantastic person? And I think it was just such a. Such an important lesson of, yeah, you can't base everything on appearances. You can't automatically decide okay. You're not to be believed. You are to be believed just because of the types of roles you fit in society.

Keith Morrison (18:38)

Sure. What I found interesting is that even though Greyhound was said by his own friends to be a known liar, you know, on a scale of one to ten, he was a one and a half all the time. Yeah. And, you know, and he was a drug addict and he was an alcoholic and he was a homeless guy, and he was, you know, mentally. Clearly mentally ill. And seriously. So what I found fascinating, though, is that the jury believed him and they did not believe George because Greyhound told the story that made sense, even though he was a known liar, they could believe this from him.

Blaine Alexander (19:20)

I was fascinated that prosecutors took, I mean, what you described accurately as a risk of putting him on the stand, of having him testify. I mean, because that could have gone any number of ways.

Keith Morrison (19:31)

And, you know, you put it out there that you recognize you have to let the jury know, I know this person is a known liar. I know this person has mental illness. I know this person is an addict in a number of different ways. But listen to his story anyway, and you'll recognize that this story is the one that's true. That took a lot of faith. Yeah.

Blaine Alexander (19:52)

You know, there was something really striking about this. After the verdict, after everything, there was this rather unexpected, I think people would say, kind of confession of sorts from George.

Keith Morrison (20:04)

Well, George, yes. George, at that point was facing life without parole. He had no hope. And he chose that moment to say, okay, well, all right, I did it. But I did it because, you know, I had this mental problem, and it wasn't really my fault. It was the fault of this, you know, difficulty I had, and my brain made me do it. And it was like he was looking for some way, if not to get sympathy, at least perhaps to have somebody say, well, maybe you should have a shorter sentence, or maybe we should do a new trial based on your mental illness. And that was enough to make Maria, his sister, decide that maybe she'd had to abandon him because he was clearly not telling the truth. And, you know, he did not get a hearing on the question. It was rejected for reasons I think anybody could understand.

Blaine Alexander (21:03)

Okay, and after the break, Keith and I are going to answer some of your questions, and they're great questions from social media. Good morning.

Keith Morrison (21:12)

Welcome to Today.

Announcer (21:13)

From back to school to tackling your to do list, the Today show is your best start to the day. It's a new season, and every morning we're here to help you take it all on. This week, football is back on today.

Blaine Alexander (21:25)

Let's go.

Announcer (21:26)

We'll take you inside the NFL season kickoff as Savannah gets fired up in Philly with the super bowl champion Eagles. And from the creators of the Office, the cast of the Paper joins us live. Watch the Today show this week on NBC.

Blaine Alexander (21:44)

Well, we have some questions, Keith, from social media, as we always do for your stories, let's dive in. These are actually a few questions about some recent episodes of Talking Dateline as well. This one goes back to the conversation you and I had last week about your episode In a Lonely Place.

Keith Morrison (22:01)

That's the one.

Blaine Alexander (22:01)

Just a right quick reminder about Chris Smith.

Announcer (22:04)

Yes.

Blaine Alexander (22:05)

A California entrepreneur who went missing back in 2010 and his business partner Ed Shin was convicted of his murder. So here's an audio question from Elizabeth about that episode. Let's listen.

Maria (George's sister) (22:17)

Hi, this is Elizabeth. In the case in the episode of In a Lonely Place about the disappearance of Chris Smith, has anyone investigated the idea that maybe Eshin's wife was also involved and that's who he's trying to protect? Just curious.

Blaine Alexander (22:36)

Thanks.

Keith Morrison (22:37)

Well, and the answer to that one is no, she didn't have any idea. And they did look into it to some degree, but satisfied themselves pretty quickly that she was one of those people who had been kept in the dark. You know, Ed Shin had become very, very good at hiding his true personality from everybody, and that included his wife. I think it's not something that is that uncommon. Unfortunately, it is.

Blaine Alexander (23:02)

It's also so striking to me that marriage is such an act of trust, isn't it? I mean, you gotta trust that your partner's not crazy, that they're not a killer. Right on top of other things. But goodness. Okay, so a couple of comments. This is hilarious. A bunch of you sent in messages with some words of encouragement about something that I actually revealed on a talking Dateline episode with Josh a few weeks ago about the fact that I am unable to swim. This was about his episode Open Water. Here's a comment from Sarah. Let's listen. Hi, this message is for Blaine. Blaine, I heard your comments a few weeks ago on Talk to Dateline that you don't know how to swim and you're scared of the water. I have taught adults how to swim in the ocean and not be here. So it's possible you've got to relax in order to let the water do its job. Sarah, that is so kind. I appreciate it. I, you know, it's funny. I really do have a stronger resolve, though, to learn how to swim. I've got two daughters they're very young. And my oldest daughter, she's four, is actually in swimming classes right now. And so I'm starting to take lessons with her instructor on my own.

Keith Morrison (24:21)

Good.

Blaine Alexander (24:21)

Because, yeah, I just. My whole family can swim or will be able to swim, and I don't want to be the odd person out here. That's my mom.

Keith Morrison (24:30)

I hope you float. Some of us don't. Or do you? Yeah, like the caller would say to me, just relax, you'll float. I just relax. I still sink like a stone to the bottom of the pool.

Blaine Alexander (24:43)

It doesn't work for everyone, is what you're saying.

Keith Morrison (24:45)

No, it doesn't. I enjoy underwater swimming, but there's no way I'm gonna do laps on the surface.

Blaine Alexander (24:50)

Well, we also had some more general. We had some more general questions that people sent in. This one is at AK Maui, an ambassador who asks, this is to all of you, is there a case where you believe that they got the wrong person?

Keith Morrison (25:05)

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think I've done about a dozen of them where they did get the wrong person. And it can take years and years and years to undo that mistake. The legal system is not set up for, oops, made a mistake, let's change it. They just. It takes a long time, and it's. The resistance to that is extremely difficult to overcome. But, yes, that happens.

Blaine Alexander (25:35)

It takes a long time. And also in those stories, it really takes someone almost acting on their behalf. Right. It's not something that people are going back and reviewing, but it takes someone who's kind of dogged in their pursuit of the truth or someone who says, no, you gotta keep looking at this. And kind of repeatedly ringing that alarm bell.

Keith Morrison (25:53)

Some of the most selfless people I've ever met are investigators and also defense attorneys who do nothing but cases where they believe somebody has been wrongly convicted. So there are people like that in the system who are trying to make it better.

Blaine Alexander (26:08)

There are. There are. And thankfully. So this is a question. This one is a fun one. It's from. Well, her name is Fun, too. Sweet tea with candy. Candy. That's cute. Okay. What is your favorite part of Dateline?

Keith Morrison (26:25)

Let me ask that of you, Blaine, because you're the one who's kind of getting going here, and I. What attracted you to come to Dateline? What did you like about the idea?

Blaine Alexander (26:35)

You know, if I were to say I love the process of putting our. Of reporting these stories. I love doing the interviews. I love the fact that we are able to sit down, take our time, talk to somebody for Two, three, sometimes hours, and that there's no rush. I really, really enjoy that. I enjoy that with all the prep in the world, the interviews can just kind of meander off in different directions or that I can get surprised in them or learn things and then, you know, it's a real conversation. And so that's just a fun, satisfying part secondary to that or kind of tangential. I love the connections that come from doing interviews like that. Once you've sat down across from somebody for a good two, three hours and, you know, all of the prep and everything, you kind of have some sort of relationship with them, especially the victims families. And so I enjoy that as well. And then the next part, of course, is getting to talk with you, Keith.

Keith Morrison (27:28)

Oh, yeah. It's amazing, isn't it, when you. An incredible gift, I would say, when you're sitting across from someone who has gone through, you know, maybe the worst thing that could happen to a person in life and they've thought about whether or not to participate in a story that we do. And some people don't want to, and that's fine. Some people do want to, and they want to represent a loved one, but have to tell the whole story of what happened and their reactions to it. And they have to have faith in you as well. So they have faith in you to tell the story well, which is a responsibility you take, have to take seriously. But. But they're giving of so much of themselves, knowing that the whole world is going to see, and they do, they do it anyway because something is motivating them to get out there and reveal. It's an extraordinary thing, as you say.

Blaine Alexander (28:30)

Last question. I'm going to ask this one. This is from Lyntucky, who says, are y' all looking forward to coming to Nashville? See you there, Keith. Are you looking forward to it?

Keith Morrison (28:41)

Can't imagine anything more wonderful than going to Nashville and being in front of a whole crowd of people. I just love being in front of a whole crowd of people for an evening. I'm terrified. Are you kidding, Keith?

Blaine Alexander (28:57)

I know it'll be. I know it'll be a lot of fun. I know the world. The people are excited to see you, Keith. That's the biggest thing. The people are so ready to see you, my friend. Well, to that point, if there's anybody out there who's listening who has not. If you have not purchased your tickets yet, you can still do it. Dateline live on September 28th. It's a first of its kind event featuring onstage panels, audience Q and a's and a VIP reception. You can get your tickets right now@datelinenbc.com event.

Keith Morrison (29:27)

Great. Come to Nashville.

Blaine Alexander (29:29)

Come to Nashville. It has been a joy, as always talking DATELINE with you, my friend. Thank you so much.

Keith Morrison (29:35)

The pleasure was entirely mine. And thank you for being so good to me with this.

Blaine Alexander (29:39)

This one always. That's it for talking DATELINE this week. And remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or just about Dateline, you can always reach us 24. 7 on social media, aightlinenbc. And do you have a question for talking Dateline? We hope so. You can leave it for us in a voicemail. That number is 212-413-5252. Or you could always send us a video on social media for a chance to be featured on one of our upcoming episodes. Thanks so much for listening. And we will, of course, see you Fridays on DATELINE on NBC.