The Crystal Rogers case at trial. Karen Read prosecution wrapping up. And a lawyer on objections.

Summary

Dateline NBC: The Crystal Rogers Case at Trial, Karen Reed Prosecution Wrapping Up, and a Lawyer on Objections
Release Date: May 29, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly, NBC News delves deep into several high-profile legal cases. The primary focus is on the retrial of Karen Reed, who stands accused of a fatal vehicular incident involving her boyfriend, John O'Keefe. Additionally, the podcast provides updates on other notable cases, including the trial of former Major League Baseball pitcher Dan Serafini and a peculiar cryptocurrency-related torture case. Legal analyst Danny Savalos also joins the discussion to shed light on the intricacies of courtroom objections.

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Karen Reed's Retrial: Prosecution Wrapping Up

Background of the Case

The episode begins with an in-depth look at the retrial of Karen Reed in Dedham, Massachusetts. Reed is accused of striking her Boston police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, with her SUV during a night of heavy drinking in early 2022. The incident has left Reed maintaining her innocence, with her defense team alleging that she is being framed by law enforcement.

Prosecution's Final Witness

Rachel White, a producer with Dateline, provides extensive coverage from the courtroom:

Rachel White [07:32]: "This is the man who's dealing with the heart of the whole case. Did that Lexus hit John O' Keefe on DATELINE Roundup?"

The prosecution introduces Dr. Judson Welcher as their final witness. Dr. Welcher, an accident reconstructionist and biomechanical engineer, brings technical expertise to the case, aiming to solidify the prosecution's stance that Reed was responsible for the fatal incident.

Judson Welcher [11:03]: "Based on the totality of the evidence, DNA, everything I've talked about that is consistent with that happening with a reasonable degree of scientific certainty, that is what happened."

Key Testimonies and Defense Responses

Dr. Welcher's testimony spans three days, during which he presents a comprehensive analysis of the accident. His approach includes:

• Reviewing surveillance footage from various locations, including Walmart and bars frequented by Reed and O'Keefe.
• Analyzing cell phone and GPS data to reconstruct the timeline of events.
• Conducting physical experiments by purchasing a similar SUV to replicate the accident conditions.

However, the defense challenges Dr. Welcher's credibility and the admissibility of certain parts of his testimony:

Defense Attorney Robert Alessi [11:34]: "Did Dr. Welcher make changes to his presentation after speaking with prosecutors?"

The courtroom tension escalates as objections are raised regarding the scope and potential bias in Dr. Welcher's analysis.

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Other High-Profile Cases Discussed

Dan Serafini's Trial

Former Major League Baseball pitcher Dan Serafini is on trial for the murder of his father-in-law, Gary Spohr, and the attempted murder of his mother-in-law, Wendy Spohr, in Lake Tahoe back in 2021. Key highlights include:

• Testimonies from Family and Friends:

  SR. Prosecutor [24:38]: "A friend of the family testified that they believed the man in the video walked just like Serafini."

• Evidence of Threats:
  A former boss of Serafini recounts overhearing threats aimed at the Spohr family:

  Serafini's Former Boss [25:08]: "I want to kill my mother effing in laws."

• Key Witnesses:
  The role of Samantha Scott, alleged to be Serafini's mistress who may have assisted him, remains a focal point as her testimony is anticipated in the upcoming sessions.

Cryptocurrency Torture Case

A bizarre case from New York involves cryptocurrency magnate John Waltz and his business partner William Du Plessis. They are accused of kidnapping and torturing an Italian businessman to extract his Bitcoin password. Key points include:

• Charges and Arrest:

  Rachel White [22:12]: "John Waltz is accused of kidnapping and torturing an Italian businessman for weeks inside of a Manhattan townhouse."

• Defendant's Pleas:
  Both Waltz and Du Plessis have entered pleas of not guilty, with Du Plessis awaiting his legal response.

• Alleged Motive:
  The motive centers around gaining access to significant cryptocurrency holdings, highlighting a disturbing intersection between digital finance and criminal behavior.

Rust Shooting Case: Hannah Gutierrez Reed's Release

Hannah Gutierrez Reed, the Hollywood armorer convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the tragic Rust movie set shooting, has been released from prison after serving 85% of her 18-month sentence.

Rachel White [26:06]: "She was released in Arizona with dual supervision under probation and parole authorities."

Gutierrez Reed's release marks a significant development in the case surrounding the accidental discharge of a live round by actor Alec Baldwin, which resulted in the death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins.

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Legal Insights: Understanding Objections in Court

A pivotal segment of the episode features NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Savalos discussing the role and importance of objections within courtroom proceedings.

What is an Objection?

Danny Savalos [28:48]: "They are the opposing attorney's way to try and argue against the admissibility of a question or an answer or evidence in general, in real time."

Objections serve as a mechanism for attorneys to challenge evidence or lines of questioning that may be prejudicial, irrelevant, or otherwise inadmissible. Properly timed objections can prevent potentially harmful information from influencing the jury.

Common Types of Objections

• Leading Questions:

  Danny Savalos [29:20]: "You have hearsay. You have relevance, which is always, always an objection."

• Hearsay: Statements made outside the courtroom that are presented to prove the truth of the matter asserted.

• Relevance and Prejudice: Even relevant evidence can be excluded if its prejudicial effect outweighs its probative value.

Strategic Use of Objections

Savalos emphasizes the calculated nature of objections:

Danny Savalos [31:05]: "They will ask a question if they really think they need to get a message across, because they know once the jurors hear it, you really can't unring that bell."

Sometimes, attorneys may employ objections not just to exclude evidence but also to subtly introduce certain points to the jury's awareness.

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Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes

The episode concludes with a brief preview of upcoming stories and encourages listeners to subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free access and exclusive content. Highlighted is a forthcoming feature on Jamie Faith's murder case, promising a deep dive into the complexities of personal relationships and hidden lives.

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Notable Quotes

• Rachel White [07:32]: "This is the man who's dealing with the heart of the whole case. Did that Lexus hit John O' Keefe on DATELINE Roundup?"

• Judson Welcher [11:03]: "Based on the totality of the evidence, DNA, everything I've talked about that is consistent with that happening with a reasonable degree of scientific certainty, that is what happened."

• Danny Savalos [28:48]: "They are the opposing attorney's way to try and argue against the admissibility of a question or an answer or evidence in general, in real time."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the Dateline True Crime Weekly episode, providing listeners with an informative overview of the discussed cases, courtroom dynamics, and legal strategies.

Transcript

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, I'm Paul Scheer.

[June Diane Rayfield]

I'm June Diane Rayfield. And I'm Jason Mantzoukas.

[Paul Scheer]

And we're the hosts of how did this Get Made? A comedy podcast where we deconstruct, make fun of and celebrate the best worst movies ever made.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Have you ever seen a movie that's so bad that it's actually good? That's what we're talking about. From blockbuster franchises and made for TV.

[Paul Scheer]

Romances to bonkers 80s action flicks and obscure sci fi musicals, we cover it all.

[June Diane Rayfield]

You can find. How did this get Made? Wherever you get your podcasts and and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Idiot. Have you ever had to put your plans on hold due to symptoms of generalized myasthenia gravis or gmg, like taking that weekend trip, talking with friends or enjoying a meal? Learn about a treatment option that may help. Visit treatgmg.com to learn more. That's treatgmg.com Good morning. You're listening in to Dateline's Morning Meeting here at 30 Rockefeller Center.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This is a curtain raiser for that other trial.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news around the country, swapping tips and story ideas. I was gonna ask if we had any boots on the ground.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Is this the one in Mississippi? Yes.

[June Diane Rayfield]

With the gold bars?

[Andrea Canning]

Yes.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Silver bars.

[Judson Welcher]

Okay.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's May 29, and here's what's on our docket. In Dedham, Massachusetts, the prosecution calls on a final witness to close out its case against Karen Reed.

[Andrea Canning]

This is the man who's dealing with the heart of the whole case. Did that Lexus hit John o' Keefe in DATELINE Roundup?

[June Diane Rayfield]

We've got updates on the murder trial of former Major League baseball pitcher Dan Serafini and the case of a crypto king now facing charges of torturing a man to get his Bitcoin password. And a postscript to the fatal shooting on the set of Alec Baldwin's movie Rust.

[Rachel White]

According to the New Mexico Corrections Department, she will be on parole in the manslaughter case for a year.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Plus, it's a word you've probably been hearing a lot at the Karen Reid retrial. Objection. But what does it actually mean? And when can you say it? NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Savalos gives us the lowdown.

[Paul Scheer]

If you don't get that objection in fast enough, the judge may not allow you to even make that objection.

[June Diane Rayfield]

But before that, we're heading to Kentucky, where a grieving family may finally get some answers in a 10 year old murder mystery. In July 2015, the Nelson County Sheriff's office got word about a car left abandoned on the side of the Bluegrass Parkway. The maroon Chevy sedan belonged to 35 year old Crystal Rogers, a mother of five who'd been reported missing by her family. Crystal's purse and phone were still inside the car, but there was no sign of Crystal. Her body has never been found. Three months after she vanished, the local sheriff announced that Crystal was most likely dead and named her boyfriend Brooks Hauk as a suspect in her disappearance. But months soon turned into years and no arrests were made. Crystal's family organized vigils, put up billboards around town and tried to keep her name in the News. Finally, in 2023, eight years after Crystal first went missing, three men were arrested in connection with her, her boyfriend Brooks Hauk, and a father and son named Steve and Joseph Lawson. All three of the men have pleaded not guilty. This week, Steve Lawson was the first to go to trial. DATELINE producer Rachel White has been in the courtroom. We asked her to help us understand the long journey that led to this moment. Hey, Rachel, thanks for joining us.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, thanks for having me, Rachel.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Before we get into what happened in court, let's just remind people where this all started. Back in 2015, Crystal's family jumped into action pretty quickly when they didn't hear from her. Why were they so concerned that something had happened to her that quickly?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. So Crystal wasn't responding to text messages. And she was a very devoted mom. She had five kids and she was always, you know, very responsive and there for them.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Crystal was supposed to be spending the July 4th holiday with her boyfriend and their baby son when she went missing. Rachel, in your reporting on the case, what did you learn about Crystal's relationship with Brooks Hauck?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

They got together back in 2012. Brooks Haug owned a construction company and a rental house company, and Crystal eventually went to work for him and helped manage some of those rental properties. So not only were they romantically involved, but they also became, you know, intertwined with their working lives. Brooks was the father of Crystal's youngest child. But just before she disappeared, Crystal told her sister that their relationship was, you know, going downhill, that it was at a breaking point.

[June Diane Rayfield]

What did investigators find out about Crystal's final hours?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

There was surveillance video of Crystal at Walmart at 4:30pm on Friday, July 3, and that's the last time that she's seen on video. Two days later, her Car was found on the side of bluegrass parkway. Her credit cards hadn't been used. Her cell phone, purse, and the keys were found in her car. So there were a lot of red flags for investigators right away.

[June Diane Rayfield]

So Brooks Hauk has always maintained his innocence. He cooperated with the sheriff's office. He agreed to a polygraph. What did he tell investigators in those early days about where he was when Crystal disappeared?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He said that Crystal was home when he went to sleep, and then when he woke up, she was gone.

[June Diane Rayfield]

The FBI eventually comes into this and starts working on the case. They zero in on Steve and Joseph Lawson. Steve is the one who's on trial right now. Who are Steve and Joseph, and how do they fit in?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So Stephen Lawson is the father. Joseph Lawson is his son. Brooks and Steve Lawson and Joseph Lawson fit together because Brooks worked in construction, and so he would hire contractors often to do work. And that's how he met the Lawsons. They both did work on and off for Brooks Hauck over the years.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Are the prosecutors alleging that Brooks enlisted the help of these two to kill Crystal or help dispose of the body?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, so that's exactly what they're doing. Steve Lawson is facing a conspiracy to commit murder charge, as well as tampering with physical evidence. So they are alleging that he was involved in the planning of the murder as well as cleaning up after the fact. Prosecutors alleged that Joseph Lawson was the one driving Crystal Rogers car to the spot where it was found on the side of bluegrass parkway. They also said that Steve Lawson is the one who picked up Joseph Lawson from that spot where the car was left. And investigators say that Steve Lawson placed a phone call to Brooks Hauck around midnight the night that Crystal disappeared. Steve Lawson doesn't dispute that he picked up his son from the parkway or that he called Brooks Hauck that night. He does, however, deny having anything to do with Crystal's murder.

[June Diane Rayfield]

All right, so take us into the courtroom for the beginning of Steve Lawson's trial. The first witness for the prosecution was Crystal's mother, Sherry.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It was super emotional. I mean, she, you know, was tearing up before she was even asked the first question. Um, and then, you know, it just really, your heart breaks for her.

[June Diane Rayfield]

And what. What was her role for the prosecution being up there? What were they trying to establish with Crystal's mom?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

So Sherry was the person who ultimately reported Crystal missing. And what I learned is that when Sherri was on her way to the police department to report Crystal missing, she actually passed Brooks. And so she met up with him at a gas station on her way there. And you know, all he said to her was that it was a good idea and to to report her missing, that he thought that she should. And she said what stuck out to her about that interaction with Brooks was that Crystal and Brooks's son was in the backseat of his truck. And she said knowing her daughter, that baby was always with her. So it really stuck out to her that something was wrong because she didn't have her son.

[June Diane Rayfield]

The trial seems to be moving along pretty quickly.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. The attorneys have said they estimate the case will be in the jury's hands by the end of this week or Monday latest, so we'll see what they decide.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Okay. Brooks Hauk and Joseph Lawson are schedul scheduled to go to trial together in June. We'll check back in for updates. Thanks so much, Rachel.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Thank you.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Coming up, the prosecution's final witness in the Karen Reed retrial says the evidence speaks for itself.

[Andrea Canning]

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[Paul Scheer]

If you're alignment in charge of keeping.

[June Diane Rayfield]

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[Judson Welcher]

My name is Judson Welcher. Sir, what do you do for a profession? I'm an accident reconstructionist and biomechanical engineer.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Dr. Welcher's testimony stretched over three days. The prosecution wanted to use his insight to wrap up its case for the jury. But the defense wasn't backing down without a fight. Here now with the latest is DATELINE producer Sue Simpson. Welcome back to the podcast, Sue.

[Andrea Canning]

Hello, Andrea. Hello.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Yes. I'm not going to ask you. I know you won the lottery this week. Tell us how court started off after the holiday weekend.

[Andrea Canning]

Well, Andrea, it was a really slow start on Tuesday. There was a long sidebar, and then the court got going eventually. But Karen's defense attorney, Robert Alessi was speaking at this sidebar very passionately to the judge and the other attorneys there. You know, I couldn't hear his words, of course, but his voice and his demeanor were intense and we know why. The next witness would be asked the question at the very heart of this case, did Karen Reed's Lexus strike John o' Keefe or not? Prosecutors put that witness duct, Judson Welcher, on the stand before his testimony started for a brief voir dire. And we should point out Welcher is a new expert. He did not testify at the first trial. The defense objected to some parts of his testimony, saying they were outside his area of expertise. And they also wanted to know if Dr. Welcher made changes to his presentation in the past two weeks after talking to prosecutors. In other words, did the prosecution exert last minute influence on his testimony? There were some tense exchanges.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Who did you have discussions with from the Commonwealth about the topics in your PowerPoint presentation?

[Judson Welcher]

Mr. Brannon and Mr. Lally describe those.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Conversations and how many you had, including the first one that you had.

[Judson Welcher]

Well, I originally submitted my presentation with my original report way back, I believe in January.

[Rachel White]

Right.

[June Diane Rayfield]

I'm asking for conversations within the last two weeks.

[Judson Welcher]

Okay. Your question wasn't clear.

[June Diane Rayfield]

The defense was questioning Welcher about whether he updated a slide to match testimony from a previous witness. Shortly after, jurors came into the courtroom and the trial proceeded. So, sue, as the prosecution's questioning got underway, what did they ask him about?

[Andrea Canning]

Well, he started out by explaining his background, which is in both accident reconstruction and also biomechanical engineering, explaining how accidents impact the body.

[Judson Welcher]

When I'm trying to explain to somebody what I do, I say, hey, it's like a civil Engine. Who's designing a bridge? So many trucks and cars on the bridge, are that going to cause the beams in the bridge to fail? So a human body is governed by the same laws of physics, just like the bridge. In a human body, my beams are bones, My cables are the muscles and ligaments.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Like the expert we heard from last week, this witness walked us through the data he collected and reviewed, and it seemed like he looked at quite a bit. Bit of data. What did he highlight?

[Andrea Canning]

There was a lot there, Andrea. First, he gave a long list of things that he'd reviewed in the case. The police reports and witness statements, ring camera video from John o' Keeffe's house, other surveillance video from the bars that John and Karen had been to that night. He looked at photos and videos from the scene, cell phone data, GPS data, weather reports, and the media interviews that Karen did, including her interview with Dateline. He also told jurors that he went to the front lawn. He lives in California. And he traveled to the front lawn in Canton, Massachusetts, where John Okeefes body was found. He took photographs there, and he made measurements, and he came up with a computer model. He even bought the same type of SUV that Karen was driving that night to do some testing.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Wait, so he actually bought an suv?

[Rachel White]

He did.

[Andrea Canning]

He did.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Really?

[Andrea Canning]

He bought an suv? Yes, indeed. You know, all of which is to say, if the prosecution was hoping to show jurors that this guy did his homework, he did everything to persuade them that he deserved sue.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Much of his testimony was quite technical. How did the prosecution's expert do making sense of it all for the jury?

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, he had a huge amount of data to get through and simplify for them. So he began to walk through the timeline he created of what happened that night. He showed a computer model he made using data he collected about how Karen Reed's car moved. He then tested the data with the car he bought that matched Karen's suv. And he tried to explain why John o' Keefe might have had the injuries he had. Welcher is himself similar height and similar weight to o' Keeffe. So he said that he acted as him in testing. And we could see videos of him actually standing in front of that SUV doing some of the testing, wearing clothes similar to what John o' Keefe was wearing that night, right down to the same make of sneakers. And he covered the tail light in paint, and then he kind of swiveled into it, trying to show where the injuries would be on John o' Keefe's arm. He had a driver back the car into a crash dummy later to show what might have happened, you know, if the car did hit John o' Keefe. And of course, he dealt separately with the lacerations at the back of John Okeeffes head because the prosecution said that John o' Keefe fell over into hard ground. He did point out, of course, that it's really hard to exactly model what would have happened when o' Keeffe was hit by the car. Ultimately, the prosecutor asked what all of the testing and reviewing of the data led Welcher to conclude.

[Judson Welcher]

Based on all the evidence you considered, could you share with the jury what your opinion is to a reasonable degree of engineering certainty about whether the Defendant's Lexus struck Mr. O' Keefe on January 29, 2022, around 12:32am yes. Based on the totality of the evidence, DNA, everything I've talked about that is consistent with that happening with a reasonable degree of scientific certainty, that is what happened.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Objection.

[Andrea Canning]

Move to strike.

[June Diane Rayfield]

So this is no surprise, sue, that Welcher believes that Karen Reed hit John o' Keefe with her suv. He is the prosecution's witness, after all.

[Andrea Canning]

He is. He is the prosecution's closer. So he is the witness that the prosecution wants the jury to remember the most. This is the man who's dealing with the heart of the whole case. Did that Alexis hit John O' Keefe? And so that's why, you know, he's so critically important.

[June Diane Rayfield]

The defense cross examined Dr. Welcher and really hit back against his testimony.

[Andrea Canning]

So the defense was spirited when he was testifying, and they were just dispirited when it came time for them to do their own cross examination.

[June Diane Rayfield]

It's your position that on every autopsy, there should be an X ray of every bulb before a conclusion can be drawn. That there's no fracture to a bone in the body of a disease. Is that your testimony?

[Judson Welcher]

Absolutely not. I'm an engineer. You're asking me about proof. And so proof is somebody looked at it. Somebody took an X ray, somebody found a comminuted fracture. So we're talking about proof, sir.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Any huge proof of my question.

[Judson Welcher]

Ask me about the opinion of a medical examiner. I'm not a medical.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Only one person at a time, Mr. Leslie, let him finish and then you can ask the question. Your Honor, I hadn't finished my question. Okay, then finish your question, Dr. Welcher. Wait for the question, then let Dr. Welch respond. It's a nightmare. The prosecution is expected to rest soon. So looking ahead now to the defense, what do we know about their strategy, what witnesses they're planning to call.

[Andrea Canning]

Well, Andrea, you know, I am sure they have a few surprises planned. Karen has said they're planning on calling more witnesses this time. And Karen says they also they have a more robust case this time around than they did in the first trial. And ultimately, I think, you know, this case is going to come down to the battle of the accident reconstructionists, you know, experts on both sides who offered their view of what happened that night. And it's going to come down to, of course, what argument the jury finds most compelling.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Thank you as always, for being there in Dedham for us and bringing us all this critical information in this trial.

[Andrea Canning]

Thanks, Andrea. Talk soon.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Up next, it's time for DATELINE roundup. We've got updates on a bizarre case out of New York involving cryptocurrency and allegations of torture. And the latest from the prosecution's case against former major League baseball pitcher Dan Serafini, who's accused of gunning down his in laws at their home in Lake Tahoe. Plus, NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Savalos gives us his brief on objections in the courtroom.

[Veronica Mazeka]

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[June Diane Rayfield]

Welcome back. Joining us for this week's roundup is DATELINE digital prod, Veronica Mazeka. Hey, Veronica.

[Rachel White]

Hi, Andrea.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Let's get started. Our first story takes us to New York City. It involves a defendant who is a big deal in the world of cryptocurrency. Veronica, break it down for us.

[Rachel White]

Yeah, so the defendant at the center of this story is 37 year old crypto investor John Waltz. He's accused of kidnapping and torturing an Italian businessman for weeks inside of a Manhattan townhouse. He was actually arrested on Friday and arraigned on charges of kidnapping, unlawful imprisonment, assault, among other charges. And he has currently entered a plea of not guilty.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Veronica, this is a wild story. And now police are saying a second man has been charged in connection to the alleged crime.

[Rachel White]

That is correct. Officials are saying that William Du Plessis is a business partner of Walt's and he turned himself in alongside his lawyers on Tuesday. He is facing the same charges as Waltz, but there's no plea as of yet.

[June Diane Rayfield]

What do we know about the alleged victim?

[Rachel White]

He is a 28 year old Italian citizen. He was actually another business partner of Waltz and Duplessis, which is coming from law enforcement. Investigators believe that the three men had a rocky past, but things really took a turn for the worse when the victim arrived in New York City earlier this month.

[June Diane Rayfield]

And according to the police, this was all over cryptocurrency.

[Rachel White]

Yeah, exactly. So Waltz and Du Plessis allegedly demanded that the victim give them his bitcoin password. And when the victim refused, the police said that that's when the torture began.

[June Diane Rayfield]

This man managed to escape.

[Rachel White]

Yeah, against all odds. According to law enforcement, the victim told Waltz that he would finally give up his bitcoin password. And then when Waltz went to go get the victim's laptop, he saw an opportunity to flee and flagged down a nearby officer for help.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Up next, we are checking in on the trial of former major league baseball pitcher Dan Serafini at the historic Auburn Courthouse in Placer County, California. Remember last week we first talked about this case? Serafini is accused of the murder of his father in law, Gary Spohr, and the attempted murder of his mother in law, Wendy. This happened back in 2021. Sarah Feeney has pleaded not guilty. What is the latest going on in court, Veronica.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Rachel White]

So we're still in the prosecution phase of the trial at this point. The jury is pretty familiar with the details of the crime. They've seen photos of the crime scene and surveillance video of the masked man prosecutors say is Sarafini, walking down the driveway towards the home.

[June Diane Rayfield]

All right, so the prosecutor called people who know Sarafini to the stand to weigh in on the video. To weigh in on the man in the video in the mask.

[Rachel White]

Yeah. So a friend of the family actually testified that they believed that the man in the video walked just like Serafini. But Serafini's older brother said that the person in the video was not similar to his brother.

[June Diane Rayfield]

So the prosecutor also asked witnesses whether they'd heard Seraphini threaten his in laws.

[Rachel White]

Yeah, so Serafini's older brother said that they had joked several times about killing his in laws, but he insisted it was just a joke. Serafini's old boss had a disturbing story to share. He testified that he had overheard Serafini arguing on the phone with somebody. And when the call ended, he said Serafini threw his phone at the dashboard and said, quote, I want to kill my mother effing in laws. And this was about three months before the shooting. And a young bartender who once worked at Serafini's bar told the prosecutor that she was scared to testify as she looked at him sitting at the defendant's table.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Yeah, that's a lot. That's some damning testimony for Serafini. Any news on Samantha Scott? So she is the woman that prosecutors say Serafini was having an affair with, and they say that she drove him to and from the crime scene. What is happening with her, Veronica?

[Rachel White]

So she's the big witness that everyone is waiting to hear from right now. Court is in recess until next week, so we'll be keeping an eye out for when she takes the stand.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Okay, for our final story, we are heading to New Mexico, where Hollywood armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reid was released from prison Friday morning. Veronica, remind us what happened in that case involving, of course, Alec Baldwin.

[Rachel White]

Yes. So Hannah Gutierrez Reed was convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the fatal shooting on the set of the movie Rust. She was the one responsible for firearms used on set. And what happened was actor Alec Baldwin was holding a prop revolver, but it ended up firing a live round and killing cinematographer halyna Hutchins in 2021.

[June Diane Rayfield]

So after Gutierrez Reed was convicted in March of last year, she was sentenced to the maximum penalty of 18 months. She didn't quite. Finish the 18 months?

[Rachel White]

No, she did not serve her full sentence. Spokesperson for the New Mexico corrections department said Gutierrez Reed was only required to serve 85% of her sentence because she wasn't convicted of a, quote, serious violent offense, per New Mexico law. That, and she had cred for things like time served and good behavior.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Do we know what is next for her, legally speaking?

[Rachel White]

She was released in Arizona with dual supervision under probation and parole authorities. According to the New Mexico Corrections Department, she will be on parole in the manslaughter case for a year.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Okay, thank you, Veronica, for all these updates.

[Rachel White]

Of course. Thank you.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Anyone who has been tuning into the Karen Reed retrial over the past few weeks will have seen court stopped in its tracks by something we've all heard many times. Objection. Objection. Sustained. You can ask it differently.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Objection.

[June Diane Rayfield]

I'm going to see you at sidebar on this, please. Are you aware of that?

[Judson Welcher]

Objection.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Sustained. And just a few weeks before that, who could forget the storm of objections at the Lori Valo Daybell trial? It was a very calm scene that day.

[Andrea Canning]

Objection. Asked and answered.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Sustained. Is it possible he could have been in shock?

[Andrea Canning]

Objection. Speculation.

[Judson Welcher]

Sustained.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Did Alex tell you that he got hit in the head with the bat?

[Andrea Canning]

Objection, your honor.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Hearsay.

[Andrea Canning]

Prior ruling.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Yeah, it's sustained. It's undeniable that watching attorneys go toe to toe over evidence and testimony can turn a trial into something akin to a theatrical performance. But according to my next guest, NBC news legal analyst Danny Savalos, objections are a serious and vital part of the trial process. Welcome back, Danny.

[Paul Scheer]

Thank you.

[June Diane Rayfield]

So let's start at square one. What exactly is an objection? Why do we need them?

[Paul Scheer]

They are the opposing attorney's way to try and argue against the admissibility of a question or an answer or evidence in general, in real time. And if you don't get that objection in fast enough before the answer comes, the judge may not allow you to even make that objection. And if you don't make that objection on the record, you may not be able to raise it on appeal.

[June Diane Rayfield]

We all watch these courtroom dramas on television, so we hear the different kinds objections that will be yelled out in a courtroom. Take us through some of them. Just the names of them.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, a lot of times there are objections, really, to forms of questions it could be leading. You hear that a lot. You have hearsay. You have relevance, which is always, always an objection. Even if the evidence is relevant, it might be really prejudicial, and that prejudice outweighs the relevance. You'll hear that objection a lot so.

[June Diane Rayfield]

There are rules about how and when you can make an objection?

[Paul Scheer]

Yes. The way it works is you say objection, and depending on the judge's practice, ordinarily, you will state the basis for your objection. But some judges don't want you to do that because they don't want you to sort of argue in front of the jury. But the attorney who objects should always be ready with the rule of evidence on which the objection is based.

[June Diane Rayfield]

And after an objection, a judge almost always follows it up with the phrase either sustained or overruled.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. So sustain means you won. You won your objection. You were right. If it's overruled, it means your objection is no good and the questioning can continue.

[June Diane Rayfield]

And also, I just have a question about jurors. You know, when. When the judge tells them to disregard, you know, after an objection, if it's accepted, you know, by the judge, it's like the genie's out of the bottle. They already heard it. That's very detrimental to. To the person on. On trial.

[Paul Scheer]

So there are a couple fixes for this. You ask for a jury instruction, and the judge may even admonish the jury, hey, that was inappropriate. Disregard it. But attorneys take calculated risks like this all the time. They will ask a question if they really think they need to get a message across, because they know once the jurors hear it, you really can't unring that bell. So sometimes attorneys even ask questions that are close to the line, knowing they'll be objected to, knowing they'll be sustained. But the point is, they got it out in front of the jury.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Do you feel like sometimes objections could be almost part of courtroom theater by certain attorneys?

[Paul Scheer]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a strategy in objecting. And by the way, sometimes questions can be objectionable, but you make a choice to let them go. You have to pick and choose your battles, because, number one, if you make a lot of them and you start losing, then you don't look good to the jury. But even if you make a lot of them and you win and it looks like you're trying to hide something, the jury is aware of that, too.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Yeah. And sometimes you can hear in the voice of the attorney, I object. It's getting more and more frustrated, stronger. If the attorney feels they need to keep objecting to things because maybe the other side is not playing by the rules.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Sometimes you won't object because you like the direction that the other side is going, and you want them to get all that in, and you want the jury to see this witness for who they are. And by the way, you're likely going to be able to cross examine or redirect at some point. You're going to have your chance to get up there and ask questions. So you use your objections wisely because you're like you said, it's all theater.

[June Diane Rayfield]

All right, well, now I feel like I need to go watch you in court, Danny.

[Paul Scheer]

You'd be underwhelmed.

[June Diane Rayfield]

I need to see how you do these objections. We appreciate your time so much.

[Paul Scheer]

Thank you.

[June Diane Rayfield]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To get ad free listening for all our podcast, subscribe to Dateline Premium. And coming up this Friday on Dateline, we've got a classic episode from Josh Mankiewicz. In October of 2020, 49 year old Jamie Faith was shot and killed in broad daylight while on a walk with his wife in their Dallas neighborhood. An investigation revealed a perfect marriage gone awry. Here she is living a double life. But it was really a triple or.

[Andrea Canning]

Quadruple life, wasn't it?

[June Diane Rayfield]

It was. Watch Josh's episode Losing Faith this Friday on NBC at 9, 8 Central. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown. Kuriloff production and fact checking help by Kim Flores Gaynor. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Kula, senior executive producer of Dateline. Have a good day, everybody. Okay, bye.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, I'm Paul Scheer.

[June Diane Rayfield]

I'm June Diane Rayfield. And I'm Jason Manzoukis.

[Paul Scheer]

And we're the hosts of how did this Get Made? A comedy podcast where we deconstruct, make fun of and celebrate the best worst movies ever made.

[June Diane Rayfield]

Have you ever seen a movie that's so bad that it's actually good? That's what we're talking about. From blockbuster franchises and made for TV.

[Paul Scheer]

Romances to bonkers 80s action flicks and obscure sci fi musicals, we cover it all.

[June Diane Rayfield]

You can find. How did this get made? Wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode. Idiot.