The Devil Wore White

Summary

Dateline NBC: "The Devil Wore White" – Episode Summary

Release Date: February 4, 2025

Introduction

"The Devil Wore White" delves into the intricate and chilling story of Sante Kimes, a formidable criminal mastermind, and her sons, Kenny and Kent Walker. This true-crime narrative uncovers their decades-long spree of fraud, theft, and murder, culminating in the mysterious disappearance of Irene Silverman, a wealthy widow from New York City's Upper East Side.

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1. The Femme Fatale: Sante Kimes

Sante Kimes is introduced as the quintessential femme fatale—charismatic, manipulative, and ruthlessly cunning. Host Keith Morrison describes her as "the ultimate femme fatale" who could "seduce lovers, lawyers, husbands, her son" (00:56). Expert commentators label the duo as a "diabolical duo" (01:12), emphasizing their calculated and sinister nature.

• Notable Quote:
  • Keith Morrison (00:56): "I just see Sante Kimes as the ultimate femme fatale. Seducing lovers, lawyers, husbands, her son. This is someone who gets what she wants."

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2. A Crime Began: The Disappearance of Irene Silverman

On July 4, 1998, amidst New York City's grand Fourth of July celebrations, Irene Silverman, an 82-year-old widow and socialite, vanished from her opulent townhouse on East 65th Street. Detective Tom Hovigam recounts the initial report of her disappearance and the subsequent investigation (05:58).

• Discovery:
  • Irene was last seen leaving her home without informing anyone, prompting her staff to report her missing (07:01).
  • Police found blood near the front entrance, escalating the case from a missing person to a potential homicide investigation (07:54).

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3. Unraveling the Connection: Sante Kimes and Her Sons

As investigations progressed, connections between Irene Silverman's disappearance and the criminal activities of Sante Kimes and her sons emerged. Detectives uncovered that Manny Guerin, a suspicious tenant in Irene's townhouse, was actually Kenny Kimes, Sante's son, under an alias (13:59).

• Family Dynamics:

  • Kent Walker, Sante’s firstborn son, reveals the manipulative and controlling nature of their mother (03:28).
  • Kenny Kimes discusses his coerced involvement in his mother's schemes, highlighting the oppressive environment fostered by Sante (22:01).

• Notable Quotes:

  • Detective Tom Hovigam (07:54): "The other missing person was a young man who was renting a room on the first floor."
  • Kenny Kimes (03:06): "She had to be dead."

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4. The Web of Deceit: Sante's Criminal Enterprises

Sante Kimes' history is a labyrinth of fraudulent schemes, identity theft, and manipulation. From posing as a millionaire to orchestrating insurance fraud through arson, her tactics were both elaborate and audacious. Her ability to charm and deceive allowed her to amass wealth and evade law enforcement for years.

• Key Incidents:

  • Midnight Caper (1980): Sante was involved in a visible theft at a D.C. bar, showcasing her brazen approach to crime (24:22).
  • Arson in Hawaii: Sante manipulated her lawyer, Elmer Holmgren, into burning her own house for insurance money, leading to Holmgren's mysterious disappearance (27:05).

• Notable Quote:

  • Kent Walker (19:14): "Mom was on the streets for the most part. What mom said, supposedly her mother was a prostitute. Later find out that's not the case."

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5. The Investigation Intensifies: Linking Sante and Kenny to Irene's Disappearance

Detectives link Sante and Kenny Kimes to Irene Silverman's case through a series of forensic discoveries and witness testimonies. The recovery of Irene's passport in Sante's possession and the analysis of Sante's notebooks pointed towards a calculated plan to steal Irene's identity and property.

• Critical Evidence:

  • Lincoln Town Car: The stolen vehicle used by Sante and Kenny became a pivotal piece of evidence, containing disguises and incriminating documents (54:15).
  • Notable Documents: Sante's notebooks outlined their plans to deceive and defraud Irene Silverman, solidifying their involvement in her disappearance (54:40).

• Notable Quote:

  • Detective Tom Hovigam (54:22): "There was a lot of things in that car. Clothes, wigs, a gun, an empty taser box, and perhaps most damaging of all, a stack of Sante's notebooks."

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6. The Arrest and Trial: Justice Pursued

In December 1998, after a nationwide manhunt, Sante and Kenny Kimes were apprehended in Manhattan. Their trial was marked by intense courtroom drama, including Kenny's startling confession and Sante's relentless denial of guilt.

• Trial Highlights:

  • Confessions: Kenny Kimes openly confessed to the murders of David Kasdan and Irene Silverman, providing detailed accounts of the crimes (75:00).
  • Sentencing: Kenny received a 125-year sentence, while Sante was sentenced to life without parole (78:00).

• Notable Quotes:

  • Kenny Kimes (75:33): "He walked in, and I think Mr. Kazdan offered him some coffee or something. And when Mr. Kazdan turned around in the kitchen, that's when Kenny took the gun and shot him in the back of the head."
  • Andrew Murray, Detective (67:36): "In the bag was the deed to the house. The most important piece of evidence that, that we needed. That's what we were searching for. That was a nail in the coffin."

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7. Aftermath and Reflections: The Human Cost

The convictions of Sante and Kenny Kimes closed one chapter of their criminal saga but left lasting scars on the victims' families and their own. Kent Walker grapples with guilt over his brother's actions and his inability to extricate Kenny from their mother's influence. Meanwhile, Kenny reflects on his past during an interview from prison, expressing remorse and a desire for redemption.

• Family Impact:

  • Kent Walker: Continues to live a reformed life, distancing himself from his family's dark legacy (82:03).
  • Kenny Kimes: In prison, he expresses regret and seeks ways to contribute positively despite his incarceration (83:07).

• Notable Quotes:

  • Kent Walker (82:29): "I still carry a lot of guilt with Kenny. I mean, it's my biggest regret not trying harder to pull him from that grasp."
  • Kenny Kimes (83:25): "If I can prove the ability to raise a million or more for San Diego Unified for education, could I do basic military training on film while in custody? This could help teachers, kids, the military and prisoners."

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Conclusion

"The Devil Wore White" presents a compelling exploration of familial bonds twisted by manipulation and greed. Sante Kimes' reign of deceit, supported by her sons, left a trail of victims and a legacy marred by tragedy. The episode underscores the profound impact of criminal influence within family dynamics and the relentless pursuit of justice by dedicated law enforcement.

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Additional Notable Quotes:

• Lester Holt (03:09): "There are many kinds of villains. This is the story of a mother and two sons and all kinds of trouble."
• Detective Tom Hovigam (49:36): "We knew we were looking at a homicide investigation at that point."
• Keith Morrison (55:56): "She contended that her son had turned against her by confessing. And instead of that, she said, 'Kenny saved my life.'"

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Timestamps Overview:

• 00:56: Introduction to Sante Kimes as a femme fatale.
• 03:09: Lester Holt discusses the nature of the Kimes family.
• 05:58: Detective Hovigam begins the investigation into Irene Silverman's disappearance.
• 07:54: Blood found near the entrance of Irene's townhouse.
• 13:59: Identification of Kenny Kimes as Miranda Guerin.
• 22:01: Kenny Kimes discusses house rules enforced by Sante.
• 54:15: Discovery of Sante's notebooks and evidence in the Lincoln Town Car.
• 75:00: Kenny Kimes' confession during the trial.
• 82:03: Kent Walker reflects on his relationship with his brother.
• 83:07: Kenny Kimes discusses his desire for redemption from prison.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of "The Devil Wore White," providing an engaging and informative overview of the episode's key points, discussions, and conclusions. For listeners seeking a deeper understanding of this true-crime saga, this summary serves as a thorough guide to the complexities surrounding Sante Kimes and her family's criminal endeavors.

Transcript

[Lester Holt]

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[Keith Morrison]

I just see Sante Kimes as the ultimate femme fatale. Seducing lovers, lawyers, husbands, her son. This is someone who gets what she wants.

[Expert/Commentator]

This story about a mother and son grifter team. This was a diabolical duo.

[Lester Holt]

They seemed, what, like open and friendly and interesting.

[Detective]

Yeah, I didn't think they would. Killers.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We have a woman socialite goes missing.

[Keith Morrison]

There were several people who disappeared.

[Kenny Kimes]

She had put a hit out on me. She wanted me killed. Why did she keep getting away with it?

[Kent Walker]

She just had that power over you. I was Mom's first protege. I was supposed to be her cohort in crime.

[Lester Holt]

Your mother instructed you to kill people?

[Sante Kimes]

I only saw one road forward.

[Detective]

Sinister, scheming.

[Kenny Kimes]

I felt like I was in the presence of.

[Lester Holt]

They were known as Mommy and Clyde. Charming, cunning, ice cold criminals inside the mother and son tale almost too twisted to believe. I'm Lester Holt and this is dateline. Here's Keith Morrison with the Devil Wore White. It was evening when they found her. Found her prone in her cell at the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility in New York. A guard raised the alarm and they rushed her to a nearby hospital. But it was too late. Her enlarged heart was so badly damaged, it could not go on beating. She was 79 when she died. Sixteen years passed. The outrages, the mayhem, the murders and the fabulous, fierce, frightening madness that was the woman named Sante Kimes. Are you more comfortable now?

[Kenny Kimes]

Yes, because she's dead.

[Lester Holt]

And that was the deciding factor. She had to be dead.

[Kenny Kimes]

She had to be dead.

[Lester Holt]

There are many kinds of villains. This is the story of a mother and two sons and all kinds of trouble. Is it fair for me to say that though you knew your mother was a terrible person, you loved her as intensely as a son can love a mother.

[Kent Walker]

There's probably not another son on this planet who loved his mother as much as I loved mine.

[Lester Holt]

But as we say, this is about a mother and two sons. The other now speaking out. His first recorded interview in decades. When your mother died, was that very difficult for you?

[Sante Kimes]

It hurt like hell. There's just nothing I can do without it but pray.

[Lester Holt]

So much history darkly comic to just plain dark. But we can begin. Because why not begin here? In a celebration. July 4, 1998. Millions gathered in New York City to watch the nation's biggest fireworks spectacular at just off Manhattan's Millionaires Row. A smaller crowd gathered for a different kind of spectacular. A dinner party at a mansion on East 65th Street. The hostess was an 82 year old widow named Irene Silverman. She's vivacious, she's a lot of fun. Fashion designer Zhang Toy was a close friend and frequent party guest. She know how to trouble a great party during her heyday and she had the heart of gold. Friend Janice Herbert also loved Irene's company. She's delightful, she's funny. I adored her.

[Keith Morrison]

Someone described her as an Auntie Mame and that's exactly what she was.

[Kenny Kimes]

She was absolutely fabulous.

[Lester Holt]

Irene Silverman had quite literally danced her way from poverty to a dream job as a ballet dancer at Radio City Music Hall. And by the time of our story, she was a healthy wealthy widow with a fine big townhouse in New York's most expensive neighborhood. It was for companionship as much as anything that Irene rented rooms in her mansion. Her tenants included some a list celebrities like Daniel Day Lewis and Lenny Kravitz and Schalke Khan. She'd lived by herself. She rent not just for fun and to also keep herself company. The day after Irene's bash, July 5th was as quiet as a country church on a Monday morning at the NYPD's 19th Precinct where Detective Tom Hovigam was working his shift. Tell me about July 5th. You were on duty, what was that like?

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

Yeah, the city was empty fourth of July weekend, so we expected a slow day. Then we received a call from a patrol officer. I picked up the phone. We have a woman, elderly woman that is missing. Her staff reported her missing.

[Lester Holt]

The missing elderly woman was Irene Silverman.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

I was the junior detective. I just had gotten promoted in January. Okay, so the other two guys were pretty senior to me and they said, well kid, this is yours. Because no one really wants a missing person case. It's very tedious work.

[Lester Holt]

With that in mind, Detective Hovagim drove to the Upper east side to the six story townhouse, a stone's throw from Central Park. This townhouse, what was that like?

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

It was actually beautiful. Beautiful artwork, beautiful furniture. The night before she disappeared, she had a great party. American flags, hats, you know, the whole bit.

[Lester Holt]

She was living the grand life, that woman.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

Absolutely 100%.

[Lester Holt]

The staff last saw Irene inside her house that morning, shortly before noon. She appeared to have left without telling anyone. Not what she would ever do, ever. Which is why they reported her missing.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We did the preliminary investigation, searched the townhouse, searched the surrounding areas, looked for.

[Lester Holt]

Video cameras, interviewed neighbors, but no sign of Irene. And curiously, two other people seem to have vanished, too.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We couldn't find one of the staff members. When we went up to his apartment, he wasn't there. So that was a little suspicious.

[Lester Holt]

The other missing person was a young man who was renting a room on the first floor.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We couldn't find the person in 1B. He disappeared the same time she did. You know, that raised our suspicion, of course. Yes.

[Lester Holt]

Though not alarmingly yet. But then outside, near the front entrance, they found blood. And Tom Hovigam's missing person case suddenly became urgent.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

When you get a person on the Upper east side like Irene Silverman, it becomes very special. The whole city takes an interest.

[Lester Holt]

Pretty soon, the whole country would take an interest. Because the case of the missing socialite was about to take an unexpected turn into something diabolical. Ever had any other case, anything like this in your career?

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

Not even close.

[Lester Holt]

What would follow and what came before is a story when all told of crimes astonishing in scale and scope.

[Expert/Commentator]

Next thing I know, he's around my back with his arm across my neck.

[Lester Holt]

Stretching from New York to la. A transient found David Kasdan's stuffed into a dumpster. Hawaii to the Caribbean. And at the center of it all, a criminal mastermind the likes of which we won't see again. With any luck, when she looked at.

[Kenny Kimes]

You, she could look into your soul.

[Al Roker]

She is the most evil woman that I've ever met.

[Kent Walker]

How do you tell the story and not be over the top? She was over the top.

[Lester Holt]

They looked everywhere. That fourth of July weekend in New York sent the canines sniffing through her mansion top to bottom. But try as they might, they could not find Irene Silverman.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

The boss who was running the investigation dubbed us the Silver Task Force because we all had an affection for Irene. Because it could have been our grandmother, could have been our mother.

[Lester Holt]

Irene's friends, like fashion designer Zhang Toi, were worried sick. It was getting late. Everybody was worried. My first Thought was that I was just praying. I was hoping that probably she was kidnapped. Someone tried to ask for ransom, but no ransom note appeared. If someone had taken her, must have been a thief, too, because 10,000 in cash she kept in the townhouse vanished with her. Suspicion landed first on that missing staff member. Detective Hovigam learned he was a longtime employee with access to Irene's financial records. He'd boarded a flight to Atlanta shortly after she vanished.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

He had gone away, but once we got him and brought him in, we eliminated him pretty quickly.

[Lester Holt]

He was innocent, just like the rest of Irene's staff.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We went through the motions of interviewing him and getting their alibis. It wasn't anyone on the staff.

[Lester Holt]

The detectives also talked to Irene's tenants, of course, and all were quickly accounted for and alibi. Except for that young guy from the room on the first floor.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

The staff told us that there was a person staying in apartment one who Irene thought was very suspicious since she had rented the apartment to him.

[Lester Holt]

His name was Manny Guerin. He'd arrived two weeks earlier. He didn't have a reference or an ID, but he seemed nice. And he gave her 6,000 in cash up front.

[Keith Morrison]

She just let him in. She let her guard down.

[Lester Holt]

She never did that. Her friend Janice said Irene regretted that decision right away.

[Keith Morrison]

He was very secretive. She felt that something was wrong, and she was worried about it.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

She was smart enough to write everything down in detail about this guy's suspicious behavior.

[Lester Holt]

What kind of behaviors?

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

When there was a conversation in the lobby of the townhouse, she would see his feet underneath the door or the shadow of his feet, like he was eavesdropping. And when he came into the house, into the townhouse, he would avoid the cameras, walk on the sides of the walls, things like that, to stay out of camera view. And she described him, you know, male, white, you know, five, nine, about 180 pounds. She was a sharp woman, man.

[Lester Holt]

And this Manny Guerin, Irene's longtime caregiver, Marta Rivera, said he refused to let housekeepers inside his room to clean, and she thought she knew why.

[Keith Morrison]

There was a woman in the apartment with him. Nobody know who she was, because that's.

[Lester Holt]

The reason that they not let nobody go inside, so they don't see her. An unknown woman in there. That was it for Irene. She told friends she wanted Manny Guerin to leave.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

She was going to evict him. Right. You know, right around the time she disappeared.

[Lester Holt]

So police searched the room Manny Guerin had been renting.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We found all kinds of things. Garbage bags, a roll of duct tape, shower curtain rings, but no shower curtain, things like that. Which raised our suspicion.

[Lester Holt]

On Monday night, July 6, Hovagam's unit asked the public for help to find Irene Silverman and her suspicious missing tenant.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We posted pictures of Irene Silverman. We had a sketch done of Manny Guerin. We had a news conference where we posted the sketch.

[Lester Holt]

The next day, Hovagam got a call. Someone had recognized Manny Guerin from the police sketch. It wasn't a member of the public, but another of New York's finest, from a different department of the city's sprawling police organization.

[Detective]

No doubt in my mind that was him.

[Lester Holt]

Ed Murray was a detective working for the NYPD's Fugitive Task Force. When he saw the sketch of Manny Guerin, he said he knew right away who it was. And it wasn't Manny Guerin.

[Detective]

I see that picture, and it's exactly a composite sketch of Kenny Kimes.

[Lester Holt]

Kenny Kimes. Murray was certain the man in the sketch was actually a car thief named Kenny Kimes, who he'd taken into custody just a few hours after Irene Silverman disappeared. Kimes had been arrested with his mother, Sante, for writing a bad check for a Lincoln Town Car back in Utah. An unusual pair, those two.

[Detective]

It was something that I just didn't think it was like mother and son.

[Lester Holt]

Like she was the boss and he was.

[Detective]

Well, she was. She definitely. Without a doubt, she was.

[Lester Holt]

So one department talked to the other, and pretty soon, Detective Hovingham was showing Kenny Kimes booking photography to Irene's employees.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

And then when we did the photo array of Kenny, the staff picked him out, saying, yeah, that's Manny Yerin.

[Lester Holt]

In that moment, there was no way, of course, for Detective Hovigam to fathom just who he was dealing with, where this Kenny Kimes and his mother, Sante, had already been, and what they had already done. Foreign.

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[Lester Holt]

Now they had the final answer. Or did they? Nothing has more suspense than a Dateline mystery. And no one wants to Wait to find out what happens next. That's why everyone needs Dateline Premium, where listening is always ad free. You get the whole story and nothing but the story. Or do you? Yes, actually, you do. Subscribe now on Apple podcasts, Spotify or Dateline premium dot com.

[Commercial Voiceover]

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[Lester Holt]

To subscribe, download. Start today from the app store on your Apple device now. Terms apply. Cancel anytime through Apple under profile settings. Almost 48 hours after Irene Silverman disappeared, NYPD detectives found her missing tenant, Manny Guerin, already in custody. But he'd been arrested under a different name. His real one, Kenny Kimes. He was locked up alongside his mother, Sante. And she, they learned, had a rap sheet miles long, reaching back decades before her son Kenny was born.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

You know, we had some background on his mother, on Sante at that point. So I use that against him. Like, look, we know your mother put you up to this. We know she, she's been arrested before and that she's manipulative and she's manipulating.

[Lester Holt]

You didn't work. Kenny Kimes gave away nothing. So who were these people? Mother and son, car thieves and maybe killers. And what might they have done with innocent elderly Irene? In a New York minute, those questions became a huge national story.

[Keith Morrison]

Hope is fading tonight that the suspect.

[Lester Holt]

In her disappearance, a missing person who vanished from her million dollar home when.

[Kent Walker]

They first got arrested. It is no exaggeration. Within the first 10 days, I had 100 news agencies attack my office looking for me. You guys, NBC, abc.

[Lester Holt]

Kent Walker, that firstborn son, Kenny's older brother, the one we told you about back at the beginning. Kent had the answers. Some of them anyway. That's my mother.

[Kent Walker]

She had a force. It was a force we were reckoned with.

[Lester Holt]

Oh, yes. Kent's mother, Sante Kimes, was a woman of many names and many schemes. Every body gorgeous, terrible bit of her. She was born in 1934. Her birth name was Sante. As a teen, she switched it to Sandy and then back again. She changed her name frequently from then on. Changed her story often, too.

[Kent Walker]

The original story was that she was born in Oklahoma, was one of the Okies. She ended up in Hollywood.

[Lester Holt]

True Maybe, maybe not. As Sante told it, her father abandoned the family.

[Kent Walker]

Mom was on the streets for the most part. What mom said, supposedly her mother was a prostitute. Later find out that's not the case.

[Lester Holt]

So she made up a story. Oh, the whole.

[Kent Walker]

My mother's entire life's made up. You know, you get that one little germ of truth. She always started out with that kernel that you can believe. That's probably honest.

[Lester Holt]

But as Kent learned as a little boy, his single mom knew how to survive, no matter how straightened their circumstances.

[Kent Walker]

Our refrigerator up until that point was peanut butter and tortillas and cheese. That was it. I was lucky if it was some milk in there.

[Lester Holt]

As for the way Sante survived, that seemed normal to young Kent. She certainly didn't hide it from him. She was a credit card thief, a shoplifter, a check kiter, and Kent became her very handy and willing assistant with some careful motherly schooling.

[Kent Walker]

I was small. I fit through windows. I knew how to be a decoy. I knew how to make attention happen. So people looked at me and said to her, while she did her thing, she was training me how to do that.

[Lester Holt]

And somehow Sante got away with it again and again. And young Kent looked at her with a kind of awe.

[Kent Walker]

She didn't bow down to anybody out.

[Lester Holt]

In the world, out in public, people noticed Dsante, and she liked it.

[Kent Walker]

I think the name of the restaurant was a Cock and Bull. It was in Hollywood. I don't know if it was anymore. Yeah, we were sitting at the bar and a gal came up to her and asked her for her autograph. And mom signed it Elizabeth Taylor.

[Lester Holt]

Elizabeth Taylor.

[Kent Walker]

Elizabeth Taylor. She looked that much like Elizabeth Taylor sometimes. She didn't have the eyes, but she had the charisma, the look, the cheeks, the mouth.

[Lester Holt]

And then pure, corrupt ambition. Sante's charisma changed their lives for good.

[Kent Walker]

The truth is, mom was on a.

[Lester Holt]

Hunt for a millionaire in 1970. Sante even took a job at something called Palm Springs Millionaire magazine and was thereby able to interview a man named Kenneth Kimes, a millionaire 20 times over, his fortune made in real estate, casinos, motels, and mansions. Sante turned on her charm, and Kenneth was smitten. A year later, they returned from a trip to Mexico, declared they were married. And just like that, our lives was.

[Kent Walker]

Beyond the American dream. I mean, we lived in five different oceanfront properties in Hawaii. We had an oceanfront estate in the Bahamas. We had a golf course home in Las Vegas. They were all home. You know, it was almost embarrassing.

[Lester Holt]

Four years later, 1975, Kenny Jr. Was born. And now Sante ran a full house, but not a nurturing one. She had rules, the sort no one would dare defy.

[Kenny Kimes]

No one answers the phone and no one answers the door. Do you got that? And I just went, oh, yeah, I got that.

[Lester Holt]

It was the late 1970s, 20 years or so before the unfortunate events at Irene Silverman's place. Sante, Kenneth Kent, and Now little Kenny Jr. All living the lush life. Fancy clothes and luxury cars and villas full of servants.

[Kent Walker]

In the house in Hawaii, we had a secret storage spot. In the master bedroom, she had 30 mink coats. I've never seen anyone wear a mink coat in Hawaii. I don't know if you have or not.

[Lester Holt]

Sante at last seemed to have the life she wanted.

[Kenny Kimes]

She always called me my darling Rhonda.

[Lester Holt]

Rhonda Martin was Kent's high school girlfriend and spent lots of time with the family in their seaside mansion. Sante was like a dream, said Rhonda. A lovely dream.

[Kenny Kimes]

And she would hug me. And my son has such a beautiful girlfriend. She would just lavish me with love.

[Lester Holt]

Stop. You look good.

[Kenny Kimes]

She always wore white muumus at home, pantsuits and just beautiful. And she always had her hair perfect. I mean, it was always perfect. Her eyes were black. Her. Like her pupils, they were piercing. When she looked at you, she could look into your soul.

[Lester Holt]

And she knew exactly what she wanted. Let's do it. I'm the director. Made sure everyone else did, too.

[Keith Morrison]

One, two, three, camera. Action.

[Lester Holt]

So now that she was rich, did Sante Kimes change her ways? Renounce her compulsion to lie and steal? Oh, no, not at all. And her compliant husband, Ken Sr. Seemed to love it. Didn't he participate willingly in her crimes?

[Kent Walker]

He didn't mind not having to pay for dresses. He didn't mind not having to pay for Cadillac Barritz El Dorados in our driveway. He fell in love with getting away with it.

[Lester Holt]

So from practically the moment they met, Ken played along even with some of Sante's wackier schemes. Like an idea to make money from the 1976 bicentennial. Sante used her considerable charm to cozy up to an official of the United Nations.

[Kent Walker]

She got an endorsement where Ken was actually named an honorary Bicentennial Ambassador. Well, that's all you need to give, Mom.

[Lester Holt]

It meant nothing, really, but Sante and Kenneth went swanning around like very important people, using the title to flog a collection of Bicentennial memorabilia. And with an extra lie or two, the fake ambassador and his wife crashed A reception at Blair House in Washington, shook hands with Vice President Ford.

[Kent Walker]

Secret Service let them ride through. And then they said, well, who are you?

[Lester Holt]

The weird stunt was exposed in the Washington Post. Just a hiccup for Zonte. DC Again a few years later. It was late and this couple came through the door. They were so distinctive, you couldn't miss them. Winter 1980. Rena Beachy was enjoying a nightcap at a Washington D.C. bar when can and Sante swept in. Rita watched as Sante, wearing a mink coat herself, nicked another one right from another table. She was just pulling her own coat up over it and she stood up and sauntered out of the place. The DC caper didn't work out so well. Sante was charged with grand and petty larceny. But then she ditched her own trial, simply skipped out of court and went on as ever.

[Kent Walker]

That's who she was. Why did she do this? Because that's what she was.

[Lester Holt]

Sante's ambitions only seemed to get bigger. Like what she did with her own beautiful beachfront home in Hawaii. No one was home when the Portlock house burned yesterday. Burned it to the ground to collect the insurance money. But she was much too clever to actually do it herself. My father was involved in a arson in Honolulu. This is Ken Holmgren. His father, Elmer was a down on his luck attorney who got roped into it somehow. Did they tell him or ask him to set fire to the Kimes house in Honolulu? I assume the Kimes wanted him to do it. You know, it was for the Kimes gain. If anyone knew how persuasive Sante could be, it was Kent.

[Kent Walker]

She knew the words to you. She knew the emotions to put onto you. And sometimes she did it in positive ways, with love and affection. She also knew how to scare the hell out of you.

[Lester Holt]

Like when Kent was 12 and still his mother's little helper and one day on his own, he stole a surfboard and got busted.

[Kent Walker]

I thought I was going to go to jail.

[Lester Holt]

So Kent tried his best to go straight. Maybe the difference between you and your mother is if you get a. If you get caught stealing a surfboard, it scares you straight. If she gets caught stealing a surfboard, it's encouragement for the next time.

[Kent Walker]

She got mad because I got caught and she tried to give me. She actually took me to where I got caught and she told me how I should have done it so I wouldn't have got caught.

[Lester Holt]

So Sante did nurture, in a way, the criminal way. And she wasn't about to let anyone get between her and her sons.

[Kenny Kimes]

A lieutenant from Hawaii 5o showed up at my house. That lieutenant told me, if you contact him, she'll find you and she will kill you.

[Lester Holt]

On the outside, Kent lived what seemed to be a normal teenager's life. High school, sports. His girlfriend Rhonda, who loved spending time with Sante, too, until the day I.

[Kenny Kimes]

Was over there, and all of a sudden, the doorbell rang, and I jumped up to answer it. She was in the kitchen, and I swear to you, she flew over the counter before I got to the door. She got right up in my face and she pulled me. I mean, I was this close to her face. It was so close, I could feel her breath. And she goes, there are two rules in this house. No one answers the phone and no one answers the door. Do you got that? And I just went, oh, yeah, I got that.

[Lester Holt]

This is the first time you saw anything other than the wonderful Elizabeth Taylor person.

[Kenny Kimes]

Exactly. I had never seen that until that day, and that freaked me out.

[Lester Holt]

That day was a turning point for Rhonda and Kent.

[Kenny Kimes]

Kent started talking to me about things his mom would have him do. You know, like she said, yeah, you know, he was my mom, you know, she likes to steal stuff, and she likes me to help her out. Like, I have to break into people's houses and climb in their windows, dig in their.

[Lester Holt]

What does that like to hear?

[Kenny Kimes]

I said, you know, if you get caught doing that, you could go to jail.

[Lester Holt]

Rhonda got through to Kent. He refused to help his mom steal anymore. Assante was furious with Rhonda.

[Kenny Kimes]

She called my mom one day and said, you, daughter has got to stay away from my son. I've had it with her. Well, then about that same time, a lieutenant from Hawaii 5o showed up at my house and knocked on the door and told my mom and dad that she had put a hit out on me. That lieutenant told me, don't stick your head up, because if you contact him, she'll find you and she will kill you. And he thought that I just left because he thought that I just, you know, like an airhead kid. Well, I don't love you anymore. But that wasn't true.

[Lester Holt]

So Rhonda was gone, and Kent was going. Straight after he graduated from high school, Kent left home and later joined the Army.

[Kent Walker]

When I left for the army, it was tough. I mean, I will say I have to be honest with myself now. I ran away. That's when mom was her worst.

[Lester Holt]

But then with Kent out of the house, Zante turned To his half brother Kenny, maybe he would make a better partner in crime.

[Kent Walker]

I am my mother's biggest disappointment. I was the one who was supposed to be Kenny.

[Lester Holt]

Kent knew his mother loved Kenny a little bit differently.

[Kent Walker]

He was the prince. He was tutored, never got spanked. He was treated as a golden child.

[Kenny Kimes]

He was so lonely. He had no friends. He had a tutor. And Kent and I would take him to go get ice cream. But she hardly would take him anywhere. We had to, like, sneak him off.

[Lester Holt]

He had a very unusual upbringing here.

[Kent Walker]

Brother Kenny didn't have a chance.

[Lester Holt]

He didn't have a chance, not with his mother. No. Take, for example, a little problem she had with the household staff. At first, Sante's maids were treated well, said Kent. Like members of the family, really. But not for long.

[Kent Walker]

The anger is like a warm bath. Sometimes it's just like everything else in her life. Elevated, elevated, elevated. And so the maids then became the enemy in the house.

[Lester Holt]

The women complained to law enforcement and in a lawsuit. John Doughty is a private detective who's investigated Sante's background. Evidently, she would lock the maids in their rooms. They were under constant watch. And I believe she attacked one of them with a hot iron once. Here she is forced to sit for a deposition about the allegations.

[Keith Morrison]

I'm very unhappy with having to give any testimony to you.

[Lester Holt]

It was all a fabrication, said Sante.

[Keith Morrison]

But I've never yelled loudly and I have certainly never physically touched any of them.

[Lester Holt]

She denied it all.

[Keith Morrison]

No, that is not correct. It is a total lie.

[Lester Holt]

Making herself into the victim.

[Keith Morrison]

I have been through an intolerable nightmare.

[Lester Holt]

The law intervened and laid a criminal charge that hadn't been used for a very, very long time. Kenneth and Santee Kimes were indicted this past summer on charges of violating immigration and anti slavery laws. Ken Sr. Accepted a plea deal on the criminal charges, but Sante took her case to trial and was convicted. She spent three years in federal prison. And Kent came back around to help his stepfather and brother.

[Kent Walker]

I was kind of a surrogate father to Kenny in a way.

[Lester Holt]

And then mom returned and things went back to normal. If such a word could be used for the life of Sante Kimes. Kent got married, started his own family, made Sante a grandmother. Say hi. Give a smile. This a decade before the events on that July 4th weekend in New York when Irene Silverman disappeared. And though Kent tried to put some distance between his old life and his new one, here he is running the video camera on a family vacation.

[Keith Morrison]

Take me when I'm sat Like they're.

[Lester Holt]

At the Kimes beachfront estate in the Bahamas. An address that will come into play a little later in our story.

[Kent Walker]

Last day here. Been a great vacation. Thanks for everything, guys.

[Lester Holt]

Just a few months after that island vacation in 1994, Kent got a call from his mom.

[Kent Walker]

Mom's hysterical. They won't fix them. They won't fix them. They won't. And I had, you know, at the time, I'm not putting two and two together. She hangs up.

[Lester Holt]

And then it dawned on him. His mother was telling him that Ken Sr. His stepfather, had died. And after Sante seemed unhinged even more than usual, because it turned out they'd blown through most of Ken's fortune when he was alive. And now that he was dead, all that was left were a few properties and some cash tucked away in offshore accounts.

[Kent Walker]

Mom didn't have any checkbooks. She had no accounts. She had nothing.

[Lester Holt]

Now she was scrambling for money. The frenzy of it all spooked Kent. He eventually stopped taking her calls.

[Kent Walker]

I had made a break for mom and Kenny. We were estranged. And I miss Mom.

[Lester Holt]

Kent had no idea then that he had timed his exit perfectly. It was now just a year before that New York City summer when Irene Silverman disappeared. Who knew what a desperate mother and son were capable of together?

[Commercial Voiceover]

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[Lester Holt]

Hey, guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with standup comedy superstar Nate Bargetzi in front of a live audience at New York City Winery to talk about his rise from small clubs to sold out arenas around the world. You can get my conversation with Nate for free wherever you download your podcasts. Every morning, we choose how to begin our day. I think about the people at home. They tune in because they are curious. They care about their world and they care about each other.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

There's always something new to learn, whether a news event or or a new recipe. And when we step through the morning Together, it makes the rest of the day better.

[Lester Holt]

We come here to make the most of today. We are family. We are today. Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC. It was the spring of 1998, four months before Irene Silverman disappeared in New York City and Kent Walker was living in Las Vegas. He had done the hard part. Cut off his mother and little brother, who was now 23, for good. And now I miss the good stuff.

[Kent Walker]

It was hard, you know, but I was doing okay.

[Lester Holt]

Kent had no idea where Kenny and Sante were or that they had moved on themselves. In fact, they were in Los Angeles now, had rented a wing of a house in affluent Brentwood. Looking for trouble, maybe.

[Al Roker]

I was working Homicide. The Los Angeles Police Department, Detective Bill.

[Lester Holt]

Cox, was also unaware the crimes had arrived in the City of Angels. In fact, he had never heard of them, not yet, anyway, when he caught a curious case about 15 miles down the freeway from Brentwood. Something about a body in a dumpster in the back alley near lax.

[Al Roker]

There was a homeless man walking down the alley, looking through the garbage cans. Big dumpsters.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Al Roker]

Dug through the trash and there was a big green trash bag in there. And saw that there was a body in there.

[Lester Holt]

The body in the dumpster was a male, middle aged, with a single bullet hole in the back of his head.

[Al Roker]

He was identified quickly by the coroner's office as being David Kasdan.

[Lester Holt]

David Kasdan. He seemed like a regular sort of guy, 63 years old, businessman. He lived alone up in the valley, 30 miles from the dumpster where he ended up.

[Al Roker]

My partner and I went over to the house. The first thing that we went into his bedroom, we saw that the bed was turned down. And then when we went into the living room area, you look in the carpet, and the carpet was just perfect.

[Lester Holt]

In fact, the whole house was just about pristine. David's daughter told them she'd been there two nights previous and she was sure they saw someone lurking outside.

[Al Roker]

There was a car parked in front of the house and they got very nervous about it. And I think the car slowly drove off when they looked out there.

[Lester Holt]

And that wasn't the only time, said the daughter. For weeks, somebody had been harassing David Kasdan, calling, stopping by. She knew there was some kind of business dispute, something about a real estate transaction gone bad. So she gave the detectives a name.

[Al Roker]

She's the one that brought up right away about Sante Kimes.

[Lester Holt]

Yes, that Sante Kimes. A little digging revealed the connection. Kazdin had Been a longtime friend and sometimes business partner to both Sante and Ken Sr. And years earlier, he had done them a small favor. Ken Sr. Trying to dodge legal bills and hide his assets, asked Kazdan to put his name on the deed to one of their properties, a mansion on Geronimo Way in Las Vegas. David, you know, reluctantly, I guess, just said, yeah, go ahead, you know, but not for too long. And so they did it. And about six months later, from what I understand, he had asked if, you know, can you guys take me off of the thing? And he had talked to Shantae, cause Ken was dead by this time and said, take me off the thing. And she goes, oh, yes, dear, we'll do all this. But Sante didn't do that. Instead, without telling Kasdan, she came up with a scheme to turn a problem into a money making solution for her, at least.

[Al Roker]

She went down to a bank, Mrs. Kimes did. And she's the one that tricked the bank into taking a loan out of Mr. Kazdin. I don't know how she did it. I don't know how the bank allowed her to do it.

[Lester Holt]

Sante got ready to walk away with 280,000 and Kazdin was on the hook for it all. And then he discovers he's got to pay back all this money.

[Al Roker]

Yeah, he gets this thing in the mail with 360 payments. And you owe this much money every month. And he was just flabbergasted.

[Lester Holt]

And so he goes through the roof and basically calls Shantae and says, what are you doing? You know, and leaves a message for her. And she calls him back and she says, you know, asking questions about the loan, something to the effect won't be.

[Kent Walker]

Good for your health.

[Lester Holt]

Kazdin ignored the warning and the bank launched an investigation. And then what do you know? A suspicious fire destroyed that Vegas mansion. And Sante, claiming the house was hers, tried to collect the insurance.

[Al Roker]

She was constantly thinking, how am I going to get the next dollar?

[Lester Holt]

It was obvious to detectives that Sante Kimes needed to be questioned about the murder of David Kasdan. And they learned that she and her son were staying in that Brentwood house.

[Al Roker]

So my partner and I went to the house that night. Just missed them by hours.

[Lester Holt]

They had left LA and Sante's preferred mode of transport, a Lincoln Town Car. PI Doty traced it to a dealership in Utah where Sante bought it, sort of. And she'd trade in her old car, an older Lincoln, and then give the guy a check for the Difference. But the check never cleared. The dealer reported the car stolen, and the local sheriff issued warrants for Sante and Kenny wanted for grand theft auto. That was just what the LAPD needed to amp up their search. Something concrete to hold Sante and Kenny on. If only they could find them. For months, detectives ran down tips from people, people who knew them in Los Angeles, in Las Vegas, in. You name it.

[Al Roker]

Every place we went, we would miss him. Just by day. Sometimes a day, sometimes just hours. They were constantly moving.

[Lester Holt]

Did she know you were on their tail?

[Al Roker]

Well, I think so.

[Lester Holt]

The mother and the son in that Lincoln were in the wind. And across the country in New York, that wealthy widow, Irene Silverman, was still living her fine life on the Upper east side. Nothing to worry about. But the Fourth of July was right around the corner. And so was a confrontation on a busy street in midtown Manhattan.

[Detective]

One of the agents grabbed Santa, took her bag. I saw there were like five agents struggling with Kenneth.

[Lester Holt]

Good thing.

[Detective]

Down couldn't take them down.

[Lester Holt]

Mother and son suspects in a years long crime spree that included two murders at least. How did it ever get this far? Kenny Kimes will tell us.

[Sante Kimes]

There's a lot of chaos in my youth. I love my parents, but there's a lot of complexity there.

[Lester Holt]

It was the beginning of summer now, and LAPD Detective Bill Cox had a pretty good idea what happened to David Kasdan. The guy who wound up in the dumpster near the airport knew his suspects, too. But finding them was quite another matter. Sante and Kenny were just gone. And then sleuthing paid off. Detective Cox landed an informant, a guy who'd done odd jobs for Sante and L. A and Las Vegas named Stan Patterson.

[Al Roker]

Stan became basically our eyes and ears because he said Sante would call him once in a while. So we told him, hey, next time she calls you let us know.

[Lester Holt]

Then, on July 3rd, just before the holiday weekend, the detective's phone rang. It was Stan.

[Al Roker]

He says that the Kimeses are in New York and they are getting an apartment and they wanted me to manage it.

[Lester Holt]

My, my, my.

[Al Roker]

And to bring a gun with me when I. When I come out there to New York.

[Lester Holt]

Stan, the informant, agreed to go to New York and help lead police to Sante and Kenny.

[Al Roker]

We contact nypd and so we told them that Stan was on an airplane coming out there and could they follow him. And we needed the Kimes's if they found them, to arrest them, arrest them.

[Lester Holt]

For that outstanding car theft warrant. Which is how Detective Ed Murray of the NYPD Fugitive Task force got involved. He was part of a sting operation using Stan the informant as bait.

[Detective]

When Stanley arrived, he was wearing a bulletproof vest.

[Lester Holt]

Okay. Was he spooked?

[Detective]

He was scared. He did tell me that he was afraid of Kenny and Santi and that they're there to kill him.

[Lester Holt]

Stan arranged a meeting with Sante and Kenny at the Hilton Hotel in midtown Manhattan. Outside the hotel, there happened to be a street fair and a huge bustling crowd.

[Detective]

There was a lot of pedestrian traffic going on, and, you know, it kind of helped. During our surveillance of the hotel, how'd they show up? Well, we waited about eight hours.

[Lester Holt]

Good Lord. At around 5pm they decided to call it a day. Sante and Kenny were clearly no shows.

[Detective]

We're standing in the lobby, the hotel, and we're trying to come up with a plan.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Detective]

And all of a sudden, I hear this screeching woman yell out, stanley.

[Lester Holt]

It was Sante. She walked through that hotel lobby as if she owned the place.

[Detective]

And she comes over to Stanley. She embraces Stanley.

[Lester Holt]

Kenny was running late, so Sante and Stan grabbed a drink, took a walk on 6th Avenue, and then Kenny arrived. Time to move in.

[Detective]

One of the agents grabbed Santa, took her bag. I saw there were, like, five agents struggling with Kenneth.

[Lester Holt]

Couldn't take him down.

[Detective]

Couldn't take them down. And then we got him down. I searched Kenneth, and he had a set of brass knuckles. He had a knife on him. As we were struggling with him, he. He urinated in his pants, wet his pants.

[Lester Holt]

Finally subdued and cuffed, Kenny and Sante were driven downtown for questioning. Ed Murray rode up front holding Sante's bag. What was in the bag?

[Detective]

What was in the bag was a lot of cash. I said to my partner, and Santi is in the backseat of the car. I say, there's got to be about $10,000 in cash in here. Santee responds. Now she responds, oh, well, you can't come to Manhattan on vacation without less than $10,000.

[Lester Holt]

Murray situated the odd pair in that Manhattan jail. And the next day, the police unit looking for Irene Silverman, the millionaire widow missing from her swanky east side townhouse, held their press conference.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Irene Silverman was in good health, both physically and mentally.

[Lester Holt]

That is when you may recall, police presented that sketch of Silverman's missing tenant, Manny Guerin. And soon after, Murray recognized that man as the car thief he had just arrested. Kenny Kimes. And by then, Murray had made another incriminating discovery, one that tied the Times directly to the missing widow they had in their possession.

[Detective]

Identification belonging to Irene Silverman.

[Lester Holt]

Inside Sante's purse, along with the big wad of cash, was Irene's passport. And just like that, two completely separate investigations suddenly merged into one very big and very strange case.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We knew we were looking at a homicide investigation at that point.

[Lester Holt]

Twists and turns aplenty today in the disappearance of 82 year old Irene Silverman. Police are not sure where this investigation is heading. It turned out the investigation was headed to New Jersey because the informant Stan Patterson, told police that when Sante and Kenny were late for that meeting at the Hilton Hotel, it was because they were stuck in traffic in New Jersey.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We got the phone numbers from every dumpster that we saw to find out where they dumped their garbage.

[Lester Holt]

Did any part of you think that she might still be alive?

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

No, not me personally, no.

[Lester Holt]

Hovagam was convinced they'd been busy dumping Irene Silverman's body that morning, returning to New York just in time to be arrested on that unrelated car theft charge. That arrest came just hours after Irene Silverman last was was seen. Impossible not to wonder if that out of state warrant had arrived just a few hours earlier, would Irene Silverman's life have been spared?

[Keith Morrison]

Hope is fading tonight that Irene Silverman will ever be found alive.

[Lester Holt]

But Sante Kimes, now caged with son Kenny in a downtown jail, was as confident as ever. And her charm offensive was just getting started.

[Keith Morrison]

She fluffed her hair, she tilted her head, she batted her eyes. This onslaught of flirtatious energy.

[Commercial Voiceover]

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[Lester Holt]

To subscribe download start today from the app Store on your Apple device now. Terms apply. Cancel anytime through Apple under profile settings.

[Kent Walker]

Ashantae Kimes is deep as a walking contradiction.

[Lester Holt]

It was more than two decades ago when I met Sante Kimes firstborn son, Kent Walker, the kid apprentice who went straight. Kent saw it all, lived it all but the big arrest in New York City that he learned about from the news.

[Kent Walker]

And I had no doubt, I knew there was just no doubt that they were guilty. Yeah, I didn't want that. I wanted so much for them not to be guilty of this, you know, but I just. I had to be honest with myself.

[Lester Holt]

What was it that made you about this? That made you so sure?

[Kent Walker]

Well, things had gone terribly wrong and I'd become fearful of them. Fearful enough to where I didn't want to be around them and I didn't want them around me because I knew nor to the scope of this, but I knew they were heading for a fall. I should have seen it coming. I didn't.

[Lester Holt]

You always thought they just try to.

[Kent Walker]

Come scams, the cons, you know, shoplifting, shoplifting. And I'm not condoning that. I mean, it's bad stuff, don't get me wrong. But there's a fight. Far cry from stealing some lipstick or picking up a stereo and killing someone.

[Lester Holt]

Investigators too were quite sure that Kenny and Sante Kimes were behind Irene's sudden disappearance. They were certain they had a murder case on their hands. But they just had one big problem. They could not find Irene's body. And proving murder could be quite difficult. But then they recovered that stolen Lincoln and it was a gold mine.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

There was a lot of things in that car. Clothes, wigs, a gun, an empty taser.

[Lester Holt]

Box, and perhaps most damaging of all, a stack of Sante's notebooks.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

I think she had 15 notebooks of all kinds of things. Irene's movements. Then she'd write like a laundry list, like shower curtain, handcuffs, stun gun.

[Lester Holt]

From the notebooks it was obvious Sante and Kenny targeted Irene for and plotted to steal her identity and drain her fortune. The big prize was that incredibly valuable townhouse. Not to mention the apartments inside that rented for 6,000amonth. That's why they asked Stan to come and join them in New York, unaware he was now an informant.

[Detective]

Kenny and Santee, they knew what they were going to do. Sadly with Irene Silverman, they were going to use Stanley Patterson as a person that was supposed to maintain the building that Irene Silverman owned.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

They found out that Irene owned the building outright. There was no mortgage left on it. She owned it. So that put the scheme in motion. Then they, you know, they looked for a notary. They did their research, I guess, as far as the deed, obtaining a deed, deed and things like that.

[Lester Holt]

On December 16, Sante and Kenny Kimes were charged with murdering Irene Silverman. They would remain behind bars to await trial. But Sante was by no means ready to admit defeat.

[Keith Morrison]

Locked up or no, I think Sante was one of the most fascinating people I've ever met.

[Lester Holt]

Back in 1998, CeCe McNair was a private investigator in New York City. Sante had assembled a legal team to fight every one of the charges against her, and CeCe was brought in to help. In their first meeting, CeCe saw that jail had not dimmed Sante one bit.

[Keith Morrison]

She came down a long hallway. She's wearing sort of a gray track suit. Her hair was black, thick black eyebrows. And you could see that she really was a beautiful woman. I was there with Matthew Wiseman, who was one of the four lawyers, and Matthew Wiseman was immediately the focus of her attention. She fluffed her hair, she tilted her head, she batted her eyes. This onslaught of flirtatious energy.

[Lester Holt]

Sante insisted through her lawyers that she and her Kenny were as innocent as newborn babes.

[Detective]

Let's just say with reference to Ms. Silverman, they deny categorically all the charges.

[Keith Morrison]

We are being framed. You've got to help us. Sante was never anything less than self assured, absolutely certain of what she was saying. This is someone who gets what she wants because I watched her and she manipulated me. She would appeal to me as the only other woman on the case. The men just don't get it. You get it. You're going to save me and my darling Kenny from the greatest injustice in history of the United States.

[Lester Holt]

And the story just kept getting bigger. Tips and leads popping up from all the places Sante had left an impression. Oh, and of course, Sante had a plan. She and Kenny were going to play offense on national tv. Oh, boy.

[Keith Morrison]

It just feels a little unnatural to anyone on the outside.

[Lester Holt]

By the time Kenny and Sante Kimes were charged with murder, they had become household names. The mother and son made headlines not just in New York City, but around the whole world. I'm Tiwa Chang in the Bahamas, following the trail of Kenneth and Sante Kimes. That trail led reporters to Douglas Hanna A lead investigator at the Royal Bahamas Police Force. We have a missing man here and.

[Kent Walker]

It appears that this woman has been surrounded by missing persons.

[Lester Holt]

Hannah knew all about Tsante and Kenny Kimes because two years earlier, they were the last people seen with a man named Syed Bilal Ahmed, a man missing ever since Mr. Hamed flew to the.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Bahamas to investigate irregularities in Ken's senior's accounts.

[Lester Holt]

John Marquis was a journalist in the Bahamas and he learned about Sante's desperate scramble for money after Ken Sr. Died.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Shantae had been drawing money from the.

[Lester Holt]

Accounts to quickly get at whatever was left of Ken's fortune. Sante pretended he was still alive and forged documents to withdraw money from Ken's offshore Caribbean accounts. There was just one problem. Ahmed, a bank auditor, was paying attention and he asked to talk to Sante.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Mr. Ahmed was anticipating a fairly conciliatory meeting which was aimed primarily at just sorting the matter out and finding out what was going on.

[Lester Holt]

Ahmed met with Sante and Kenny over dinner. And when the sun came up the next day, the phone rang at the Royal Bahamas Police Force. Ahmed was nowhere to be found, but neither was Sante. We tried to find a to try to find out about what the link was all about, but the police chief had no idea where she was until those New York booking photos made international headlines. So now Sante and Kenny were suspects in not one or two, but perhaps three murder investigations. But from her jail cell, Sante was determined.

[Keith Morrison]

She continued to proclaim her innocence and.

[Lester Holt]

That they were framed and they didn't do it quietly. She and Kenny started talking to reporters, including a sit down interview with 60 Minutes.

[Keith Morrison]

I was married to a wonderful man. He was a big old Irishman. Kenny looks a lot like him. There was the interview on 60 Minutes. Everybody was talking about it.

[Lester Holt]

There they were, mother and son, accused murderers, looking a little too intimate.

[Keith Morrison]

Santa and Kenny were sitting way too close together and they were holding hands. And it just didn't look exactly normal for a mother and son to be sitting that close or holding hands. And there was the gushing about how beautiful his mother was.

[Kent Walker]

I think she's a beautiful person spiritually.

[Lester Holt]

And intellectually and physically. What was going on here exactly? Irene's employees said that Manny Guerin or Kenny was sharing a room that only had one bed with a much older female friend. And now police knew that woman. But Sante, did you hear these stories about supposedly the intimate relationship between the two of them?

[Keith Morrison]

Yes.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

A guy they picked up in Florida when they drove up the coast. He claims that he Went into the room, he walked in and they were in bed naked together.

[Lester Holt]

The Florida guy was someone Sante and Kenny roped into their schemes. Later he spilled it all to the police.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

So that's where we got the incestuous relationship from. It wouldn't surprise me. You know, it really would not surprise me, I think.

[Lester Holt]

I suppose as much as anything as part of the control mechanism.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

Exactly.

[Lester Holt]

Kent saw that TV interview too, of course. Saw the very public intimacy.

[Kent Walker]

Cause the 60 Minutes interview, they're holding their hands and stuff like that.

[Lester Holt]

The whole incest thing, it was weird. Yeah. It just. I mean. And it's catnip, you know, I don't believe.

[Kent Walker]

And it's not because I don't want to believe it. I know it. What didn't happen. And I will say this. Their relationship was not normal. It was short of sexual, let's put it that way. I mean, was it intimate? I'm sure it was intimate, but I don't think it was anything sexual.

[Keith Morrison]

I asked her about it and she said, oh, honey, how could anybody ever say something like that? I only held Kenny to my breast when he was a baby to keep him warm. It's disgusting.

[Lester Holt]

Kenny denied it too. And CeCe said she believed Sante to a point.

[Keith Morrison]

But maybe there is such a thing as an emotional incest where they're so close that it just feels a little unnatural to anyone on the outside.

[Lester Holt]

Rhonda was inside for a while, saw Sante try to groom Kent and then succeed with Kenny.

[Kenny Kimes]

All of his grooming years, he was completely under her. She never let him go. She took him everywhere.

[Lester Holt]

Yes. And this whole so called incestuous thing, whether it happened or not, it didn't really matter. They were always like that.

[Kenny Kimes]

And I have no, I can't say that any of that happened because I never saw it. You know, I'm not saying it didn't, but I never saw it happen like that.

[Lester Holt]

But I mean, it's the codependency that matters.

[Kenny Kimes]

Yes, yes, he was a victim because he never had any influence from anyone else.

[Lester Holt]

So a new question now. Kenny was behind bars, separated from his mother for the first time in years. What would Sante's son do left to his own devices?

[Expert/Commentator]

Next thing I know, he's around my back with his arm across my neck and he does did say to me, this is a hostage situation.

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[Detective Tom Hovigam]

Restrictions apply.

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[Lester Holt]

A true crime story never really ends. Even when a case is closed, the journey for those left behind is just beginning.

[Commercial Voiceover]

Since our DATELINE story aired, Tracy has harnessed her outrage into a mission.

[Expert/Commentator]

I had no other option. I had to do something, catch up.

[Lester Holt]

With families, friends and investigators on our bonus series after the Verdict. Ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances with strength and courage. It does just change your life.

[Keith Morrison]

But speaking up for these issues helps me keep going.

[Lester Holt]

To listen to after the Verdict, subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or at datelinepremium.com the moment of reckoning had arrived. The trial of Sante and Kenny Kimes for murdering Irene Silverman began in a Manhattan courthouse. It was a tricky case in a way. No body and no DNA or other physical evidence to tie mother and son to the crime. But Detective Hovigam was feeling as confident as he could be.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

We had such circumstantial, overwhelming evidence that I knew we'd get a conviction.

[Keith Morrison]

I think the DA presented 130 witnesses.

[Lester Holt]

Irene's friend Zhang Toi was one of them. For one moment, I was really scared and nervous. And then I got to see the mother and son there. I was so angry. Suddenly it just took it took me over and said, I know I have to do whatever I have to do the right thing to send them to jail for murdering my friend. The motive was pure cold blooded greed, said the prosecution. Sante wanted that townhouse and so they killed Irene. And Sante pretended to be Irene, duping a notary into approving the legal documents to steal the house.

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

They got the notary to come in. They forged the deed. They got her signature.

[Lester Holt]

The notary testified to that. But where was the deed now? Well, the jury learned that police had been listening in on Sante's jailhouse calls. And so they heard when she asked Cece and another private detective to go pick up a bag. She checked at New York's Plaza Hotel. It sounded urgent.

[Keith Morrison]

You have to go and pick up the bag at the Plaza. You have to go, you have to, to go hundreds of times.

[Lester Holt]

When the PI went to get the bag, investigators were right behind what was in the bag?

[Detective Tom Hovigam]

In the bag was the deed to the house. The most important piece of evidence that, that we needed. That's what we were searching for. That was a nail in the coffin.

[Lester Holt]

A jury found Sante and Kenny kimes guilty of 118 charges, including second degree.

[Keith Morrison]

Just rang out in the courtroom over and over and over again. Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.

[Lester Holt]

I was so happy when the verdict came that they were guilty of murder.

[Detective]

But at the same time with a.

[Lester Holt]

Lot of sadness, you know, my friends never coming back. Kent Walker, the son who escaped, has been contemplating that awful act for years.

[Kent Walker]

I think at the time, time they found Silverman, I think they'd gotten away with so much up to that point where they didn't have a fear of going for that big score. They really thought they were going to get away with it.

[Lester Holt]

Right after it was over, cece went to check on Sante.

[Keith Morrison]

I expected tears, I expected hysteria because of her volatile personality. And instead of that, she threw her arms around me and she just said, we have to start on the appeal.

[Lester Holt]

Kenny's reaction was starkly different.

[Keith Morrison]

He was absolutely gray. Ashen is the perfect word. He could not believe what had happened because hadn't his mother told him a thousand times, we're innocent, were innocent.

[Lester Holt]

Despite the guilty verdict, crucial questions remained, like where and how was Irene murdered? Only they knew that, and neither would say yet. Kenny was sentenced to 125 years, his mother to 120. Kenny was sent to a prison in upstate New York. And that's where freelance journalist Maria Zone went to interview him while working on a Court TV documentary.

[Expert/Commentator]

The interview was at noon. The corrections officer brings me to an empty cafeteria. There were two chairs. And Kenny walks in in his prison garb. And I'm sitting down with my two man crew. And right away I could tell something was going on, like his mind was racing. Are you saying, though, that Mrs. Silverman was aware that you were sharing the.

[Keith Morrison]

Apartment with your mother?

[Lester Holt]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Expert/Commentator]

And after about 10 minutes, he said, can I go to the bathroom? So he went to the bathroom the first time, asked him a couple of more questions. 10 minutes must have gone by. Can I go to the bathroom again?

[Lester Holt]

Could we take a break in maybe.

[Sante Kimes]

Five or 10 minutes?

[Expert/Commentator]

Then finally, the third time, he said, to me. Maria, I'm really hungry. Would you mind getting me something to eat?

[Lester Holt]

So Maria got a Snickers bar and a water from a vending machine, and then she handed them to Kenny. Big mistake.

[Expert/Commentator]

It all happened incredibly fast. Next thing I know, he's around my back with his arm across my neck. And he did say to me, this is a hospital situation.

[Lester Holt]

The core TV crew recorded a few seconds of it until Kenny demanded they stop. He was holding a pen to Maria's throat, the same pen you could see him handling during the interview. Maria was terrified, but, like a good reporter, kept asking questions.

[Expert/Commentator]

I said to him, kenny, why are you doing this? And he basically said, I want to be extradited to Canada. My mother is an elderly woman. She can't live the rest of her life in prison.

[Lester Holt]

He held her there on the floor for hours while hostage negotiators kept looking for an opening. And Maria kept talking.

[Expert/Commentator]

I finally said, do you know how to pray? And he said, yes. And he actually was very receptive to it. I know I need. So we said the Lord's Prayer together. There was a hostage negotiator that, after we prayed together, he said to Kenny, kenny, I'm going to try to help you. Here is my business card. And he pulled out a business card, and he reached out to Kenneth.

[Lester Holt]

That was the distraction the authorities needed. The guards pounced.

[Expert/Commentator]

They must have just all jumped. And I heard him grunting and groaning, and I didn't look back.

[Lester Holt]

For his violent stunt, Kenny got sent to solitary confinement. And years would pass before he would see his mother again. A reunion in an L. A courtroom where a chilling story would come tumbling out.

[Keith Morrison]

They got her in the bathtub, and he had his hands around her throat, and he said, I didn't know how long to squeeze.

[Lester Holt]

The Kaimes were serving time for killing Irene Silverman, but the story was far from over. California was to try them for the murder of David Kasdan. Mother and son faced the death penalty for that one.

[Kent Walker]

They were extradited to Los Angeles. I went to see Kenny.

[Lester Holt]

Kent urged his little brother to play let's Make a Deal.

[Kent Walker]

I was in Kenny's ear, and I was telling him, you're not going to win this one. You got the death penalty. Do not put me in the position where I have to explain to my kids that you've been executed. Don't do that.

[Lester Holt]

Advice Kenny took. He agreed to plead guilty if prosecutors took the death penalty off the table. And not just for him, but for his mother, too. It was a no Brainer for la.

[Al Roker]

We liked the deal, the DA liked it. So we made a deal with Kenny.

[Lester Holt]

Sante, however, wasn't quite so flexible. Confess. Not a chance. Not even when they told her that her Kenny, though few would have imagined it possible, was going to testify against her. It began in June 2004. It was theatrics from the start.

[Keith Morrison]

Sonte was wheeled in in a wheelchair. This was for dramatic effect, which is if you know Sante, her life is dramatic effect.

[Lester Holt]

Defense investigator CeCe McNair was there when Kenny took the stand.

[Keith Morrison]

He then told the story of murdering David Kastin. Sante was in front in the wheelchair and you could hear her sobbing, crying as Kenny spoke.

[Lester Holt]

A lifetime of loyalty died. He told the jury it was Sante who decided Kasdan had to go because Kazdan got wise to their scams. Sante who ordered him, Kenny to do it. And so, of course, Kenny went and took his pistol. When he presented his smiling face at Kazdan's door, he recognized Kenny.

[Al Roker]

And so he let Kenny in. So Kenny walked in And I think Mr. Kazdan offered him some coffee or something. And when Mr. Kazdan turned around in the kitchen, and that's when Kenny took the gun and shot him in the back of the head.

[Lester Holt]

And then he heaved Kazdan's body into that dumpster by the airport.

[Kent Walker]

And then on the way home to see mom, Kenny stopped and bought a hundred dollar bouquet of flowers to give to her to celebrate the job accomplished kind of a window. How sick their minds were.

[Lester Holt]

Oh, but there was more. Kenny described exactly how he and his mother murdered Irene Silverman.

[Keith Morrison]

His mother came into Irene's bedroom, turned on the television. They hit her with a stun gun. They got her in the bathtub and he had his hands around her throat and he said, I didn't know how long to squeeze.

[Lester Holt]

After Sid county, he put Irene's body in the trunk of that stolen Lincoln and dumped it in a trash bin in Hoboken, New Jersey, and drove back to Manhattan just in time to be arrested with his mother.

[Keith Morrison]

It was horrifying to hear. I was viscerally affected by this description.

[Lester Holt]

And Kenny had one more story to tell. This one about that middle banker in the Bahamas, Zayed Ahmed, last seen having dinner with Kenny and Sante. Last meal of his life.

[Al Roker]

They spiked his drink. They had already filled the bathtub because they knew they were going to drown him. And when he passed out from drinking, Kenny takes him into the tub. But he says, as soon as I put his head Underwater and held him. He said the fight was on. He said that guy was stronger than what I thought. It was a bigger battle than I thought. But eventually he was able to drown him.

[Lester Holt]

God, you can just imagine that scene, huh?

[Al Roker]

I know, I know.

[Lester Holt]

So was he sorry for his crimes? Is that why he offered his confession? Kenny's brother didn't think so.

[Kent Walker]

His confession was not exoneration. It was purely self serving. It was, you know, best he can do at the time.

[Lester Holt]

Sante was convicted and sentenced to life without parole and installed in New York's Bedford Hills Prison there to spend the rest of her days, though not quietly.

[Keith Morrison]

I went up to see her and you would think she would claim that her son had turned against her by confessing. And instead of that she said, Kenny saved my life. He saved my life. But we didn't do it. This is the greatest miscarriage of justice in American history.

[Lester Holt]

Defiant as usual. But for the victims families at least the not knowing was over. Except not quite. There is one more story. This one happened back when Kenny Jr. Was still a teenager, not yet a killer. It's the story about that other son named Ken and his father, Elmer. I think he just got caught up in a situation he didn't know how to get out of. Elmer Holmgren, the down on his luck lawyer Sante somehow persuaded to burn her house down in Hawaii for the insurance, of course. Except the Feds got wind of it and Holmgren decided to cooperate. Wear a wire. He was working with the atf, you know, to implicate the crimes on this. But then Ken Holmgren is sure Sante and Kenneth Sr. Found out and they took Elmer on a little holiday to Costa Rica. He was never seen again. My father was gone, and I mean mysteriously gone. Murdered, his son believes so. There was never a trial, there was never a charge, there was never anything having to do with your dad. Does that matter to you a lot? It did at the time. You know, the ATF agent said, well, they're going to be in prison for the rest of their lives. What difference does it make? Well, it made a difference to me and it made a difference to the family too.

[Kent Walker]

Sure.

[Lester Holt]

Elmer Holdgren's name would have been there as somebody whose death had been accounted for and some kind of justice done, Correct? Yes, justice. Kenny Kimes has had more than two decades in prison to reflect on that and to make sense of the broken life and love he shared with his mother. I find that very interesting actually Kenny, that. That you can say you love your mother, that you.

[Sante Kimes]

I love. I Love my mom and dad forever.

[Lester Holt]

And now, in his first TV interview in decades, he's going to try to explain there's always more to the story. To go behind the scenes of tonight's episode, listen to our talking Dateline series with Josh and Keith, available Wednesday. Even in prison, Sante Kimes could seem glamorous and terrifying.

[Kenny Kimes]

I feared for my life for a long time.

[Lester Holt]

For years, Rhonda Martin, Kent's high school girlfriend, finally got the news with everyone else. In 2014, after 16 years behind bars, Sante Kimes died. Are you more comfortable now?

[Kenny Kimes]

Yes, because she's dead.

[Lester Holt]

Wow. That's saying something, isn't it? A woman who charmed and harmed, whose death, even for the son who ran from her all those years ago, was very, very hard.

[Kent Walker]

I knew I was the only person on this planet that would feel pain from it, and no one else could understand why. And, you know, one thing I'll never.

[Lester Holt]

Apologize for is loving my mother, though there is Kenny. So Kent is not the only son to feel the pain.

[Kent Walker]

I still carry a lot of guilt with Kenny. I mean, it's my biggest regret not trying harder to pull him from that grasp. But I was outmatched. Mom's stronger than me in that department.

[Sante Kimes]

The R.J. donna Correctional Facility, San Diego, California.

[Lester Holt]

Today, Kenny Kimes is 49 years old, serving his time in a prison in San Diego.

[Sante Kimes]

Hello. Good morning.

[Lester Holt]

He agreed to speak with us on the phone, which is what the California prison system allows. This would be his first recorded interview since the day he took that court TV reporter hostage a quarter century ago. And it was a much different Kenny this time.

[Sante Kimes]

The first thing I want to say is that I absolutely regret my past. And the ignorance of my past crimes makes me want to do better and makes me want to engage in what I would call tangible contrition.

[Lester Holt]

This was his reason for talking to us, to tell us he had come up with, on his own, a grand idea.

[Sante Kimes]

If I can prove the ability to raise a million or more for San Diego Unified for education, could I do basic military training on film while in custody? This could help teachers, kids, the military and prisoners. That's what I'd like to do.

[Lester Holt]

Just how did this convicted killer plan to raise a million while in prison for life? Well, he isn't exactly sure about that. He said it was that kind of conversation, friendly with some kind of limit we sensed coming soon. Is there anything that you would like to say now to the families of those people, to the survivors of those people that would be.

[Sante Kimes]

I'm sorry 100%. 100%. I'm sorry. My answer is I am sorry. And I was an idiot. And my ignorance, I'm ashamed of, mind you.

[Lester Holt]

He said it was his mother who did it, who made him a killer.

[Sante Kimes]

There was a. There's a lot of chaos in my youth, Keith.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah.

[Sante Kimes]

And when. When you live an isolated life. And, and. And I was isolated. I only saw one road forward, and I. I didn't have a support system. I didn't have an escape. Escape valve.

[Lester Holt]

So her fault. Well, yes. And yet I love my parents, but.

[Sante Kimes]

There'S a lot of complexity there.

[Lester Holt]

I find that very interesting, actually, Kenny, that you can say you love your mother, that you.

[Sante Kimes]

I love my mom and dad. Forever before God.

[Lester Holt]

I love my mom and dad and have those positive feelings toward them. Even though your mother was the one who instructed you to kill people? I mean, it's something for people to wrap their heads around. I'd like to wrap my head around it.

[Sante Kimes]

Your perspective and my perspective and anyone's perspective is the culmination of their existence. And I choose to not focus on the negative elements of my parents. And that's. That is just what feels right and appropriate to me.

[Lester Holt]

Keith still friendly, but his mood seemed to have changed when your mother died. Was that very difficult for you?

[Sante Kimes]

It hurt like hell it hurt. And. And there's just nothing I can do without it but pray.

[Lester Holt]

He was baptized a Catholic in prison, he told us. Then I probed a little more about his mother, rather gently, and the conversation grew strained. Well, I was just curious to know if your mother, like you, came to regret her crimes and try to achieve her own kind of redemption or whether she was just, you know, sante all the way along to the end.

[Sante Kimes]

I don't know. I don't know, Keith. I'm sorry.

[Lester Holt]

Yeah, there was no. They. They cut off.

[Sante Kimes]

Could we take. Keith, could we take a little break real quick?

[Lester Holt]

Yeah. And that was that. But as we tried to understand why that would be a trigger for a hang up, Kenny called back to tell me he didn't want to talk about his mother anymore.

[Sante Kimes]

I don't want to go into my family in a media venue. I'm going to keep my laundry to myself.

[Lester Holt]

All right?

[Sante Kimes]

Maybe in the future we can talk about more rehabilitative elements and so forth, and I hope that could happen.

[Lester Holt]

By which he meant his pitch to raise a million dollars for education is tangible contrition.

[Sante Kimes]

I think that maybe I can pay for my crimes by supporting education.

[Lester Holt]

But there is one more bit of family laundry and it is still unwashed. Your brother, Kent, the last time I talked to him, he. He talked about how he regrets not being able to help rescue you from that situation. Is that something that bothers. Bothers you too?

[Sante Kimes]

I wish Kent well. I just. I wish he would have done a little more.

[Lester Holt]

And Kent told us he doesn't visit Kenny often. Not sure he wants to anytime soon. Because for one thing, that contrition Kenny talked about, Kent is a skeptic.

[Kent Walker]

I still don't believe he has regret for what he did, which is hard for me.

[Lester Holt]

The sons of Sante Kimes, that magnetic criminal homicidal mother, that tireless teacher of grift and chaos and violence, one who killed for her, locked up for a lifetime. The other focused on gratitude for escaping her lethal orbit to find a life that's full and a little more boring.

[Kent Walker]

You know, life among the cons is a lot more exciting than life among the marks. And I'm looking back now, 25 years later. It feels good to be bored once in a while.

[Lester Holt]

It's okay, you know, It's a normal state of things.

[Kent Walker]

Yeah, I didn't know what normal was. My normal was different than everyone else's. I like it this way a lot better.

[Lester Holt]

That's all for this edition of Dateline. We'll see you again Sunday at 9, 8 Central. And of course, I'll see you each weeknight. For NBC Nightly News, I'm Lester Holt. For all of us at NBC News, good night.

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