The final days of Karen Read's retrial. The Pam Hupp saga continues. Plus, jury instructions.

Summary

Dateline NBC – June 12, 2025: The Final Days of Karen Reed's Retrial, The Pam Hupp Saga Continues, and Jury Instructions

Hosted by NBC News

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1. Introduction to Karen Reed's Retrial

The episode delves into the intense final days of Karen Reed's retrial in Dedham, Massachusetts. Reed faces charges of second-degree murder, accused of hitting her Boston police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, with her SUV and abandoning him in a snowstorm. Despite her plea of not guilty, the defense alleges a conspiracy by law enforcement to frame her.

• Courtroom Tensions: Producer Sue Simpson provides an on-the-ground perspective, noting, “Everyone seems to be feeling a little depleted. The judge, the attorneys, and the jurors. Everyone has shown signs of fatigue at times” (03:31).

• Mistrial Motion: A significant moment occurred when the defense sought a mistrial after misleading testimony regarding holes in O'Keefe's sweatshirt. Defense attorney Bob Alessi challenged the prosecution's implications, leading Judge Beverly Kanone to dismiss the motion while instructing the jury that the holes were created during the investigation (05:01).

• Forensic Testimony: The episode highlights contentious exchanges with Dr. Elizabeth La Posada, a forensic pathologist whose credibility was scrutinized. During cross-examination, she steadfastly maintained that the car did not hit O'Keefe, despite prosecution attempts to link the injuries to the vehicle impact (08:22).

• Defense and Prosecution Strategies: As the trial nears its conclusion, the defense focuses on creating reasonable doubt about the collision, whereas the prosecution emphasizes Reed's intentional actions. Sue Simpson captures the essence: “What actually happened in that tiny, tiny time frame?” (09:40).

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2. The Ongoing Pam Hupp Saga

The narrative shifts to the continued investigation into Pam Hupp, a central figure in multiple true-crime stories covered by Dateline NBC. Former sheriff's deputy Michael Merkel faces perjury charges related to his testimony in the 2011 murder case of Betsy Faria, which initially led to Russ Faria's wrongful conviction.

• Merkel's Perjury Charges: Prosecutor Mike Wood accuses Merkel of lying about photographic evidence, claiming Merkel falsely stated his camera malfunctioned, whereas 132 images actually contradicted his testimony (16:18). Merkel denies these allegations, labeling them as a “political stunt” (18:38).

• Impact on Russ Faria: Russ Faria recounts his experience witnessing Merkel's arrest, expressing a sense of vindication and ongoing pursuit of justice (18:54). He remains hopeful yet cautious about the upcoming trial of Pam Hupp, slated for August 2026 (20:03).

• Historical Context: The episode provides background on Hupp’s 2016 shooting of a man she claimed was a Dateline producer, alleging it was a setup to frame Russ Faria. This complex web of deceit and legal battles underscores the depth of the Pam Hupp story (13:03).

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3. Importance of Jury Instructions

A pivotal segment features NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos discussing the critical role of jury instructions in trials. He emphasizes that these instructions guide jurors in applying the law to the facts presented, highlighting their potential to influence the trial's outcome significantly.

• Key Insights on Jury Instructions: Savalos explains, “Jury instructions are quietly, arguably one of the most important, if not the most important moment in a trial” (26:25). He underscores that flawed instructions can lead to mistrials or appeals, making them a focal point for both defense and prosecution.

• Elements Affecting Trials: The conversation touches on specific aspects like the burden of proof and the handling of expert testimony, which are crucial for ensuring a fair deliberation process (28:04).

• Application to Karen Reed's Retrial: The discussion connects back to Reed's case, where precise jury instructions are essential to address both the prosecution's allegations of intentional harm and the defense's claims of a framed investigation (30:42).

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4. Dateline Roundup: Other Notable Cases

The episode also provides updates on other high-profile cases:

• Dan Serafini's Trial: Former Major League Baseball pitcher Dan Serafini stands accused of murdering his father-in-law and attempting to kill his mother-in-law. Key witness Samantha Scott testified about Serafini's alleged plans and possession of a weapon, which aligns with surveillance footage capturing suspicious activities (22:12).

• Lori Vallow's Third Trial: Lori Vallow faces accusations of conspiring to kill Brandon Boudreau, her niece's ex-husband. Representing herself, Vallow's courtroom demeanor led to her removal after a heated exchange, signaling escalating tensions as the trial progresses (23:54).

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5. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Episodes

The episode concludes with teasers for upcoming Dateline content, including new podcast seasons and upcoming trials. Andrea Canning highlights the significance of jury instructions in the final stages of trials and underscores the intricate interplay between legal strategies and courtroom dynamics.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sue Simpson on Courtroom Fatigue: “Everyone seems to be feeling a little depleted. The judge, the attorneys, and the jurors. Everyone has shown signs of fatigue at times.” (03:31)

• Andrea Canning on Mistrial Motion: “I instruct you that you are not permitted to draw any inference that those holes were a result of the events on January 29, 2022.” (05:51)

• Dr. Elizabeth La Posada on Jury Instructions: “Jury instructions are quietly, arguably one of the most important, if not the most important moment in a trial.” (26:25)

• Danny Savalos on Forensic Evidence: “He said that the car did not hit him. So it was not relevant to my opinion.” (09:06)

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This comprehensive episode of Dateline NBC offers a deep dive into the complexities of high-stakes trials, the pursuit of justice, and the often-overlooked intricacies that can determine the outcomes of legal battles.

Transcript

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[Lisa Terkers]

When trust is broken, it can feel like your whole world has shattered, doesn't it? Whether it's a series of small cracks or a complete fracture, best selling author Lisa Terkers knows this pain. Lisa's new book, the Trust Journey, is an invitation to work through the doubts, the fear and the pain. It's a path forward to repair what can be repaired and to find peace with what cannot. Look for the trust journey. Everywhere books are sold.

[Andrea Canning]

Hey, good morning.

You're listening in on dateline's morning meeting.

Okay, so let's get started on this rainy morning.

Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news.

[Sue Simpson]

When did it happen?

[Andrea Canning]

I have every single body worn camera as part of this investigation.

We're lucky at DATELINE we get to go to trials for work.

[Danny Savalos]

These people are taking off of work.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's June 12th and here's what's on our docker. In Lincoln County, Missouri, a new development in one of dateline's most well known cases, the Pam Hupp saga. A former sheriff's deputy who investigated the 2011 murder she's accused of committing is now in handcuffs himself.

[Danny Savalos]

The judge set his bond at $50,000.

[Andrea Canning]

In Dateline Roundup, former major League baseball pitcher Dan Serafini squares off against his former lover in court and and Lori Vallow gets thrown out of an Arizona courtroom. You don't need to yell at me either. Yeah, you are. And you do not have to be that way. I'm big. Plus, NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos gives us the lowdown on jury instructions and how they can make or break a trial. But before all that, we're heading to Dedham, Massachusetts, where the jury at Karen Reed's retrial may soon be getting their own instructions. After seven weeks, Karen Reid's retrial is entering its final days, but the drama in the courtroom shows no sign of slowing down. Reid is charged with second degree murder and is accused of hitting her Boston police officer boyfriend John o' Keefe with her SUV and leaving him to die in A snowstorm. She has pleaded not guilty. And the defense has argued that Reed was framed by law enforcement as part of a cover up. As the defense wrapped up its case this week, tensions ran high and sidebars ran long. Reid's lawyers called for their second mistrial in less than a week. Even Judge Beverly Kanone seemed fed up. We've done important work, but we've wasted an awful lot of the jurors time today. Here to break it down is DATELINE producer Sue Simpson, who has been watching in court. Sue, welcome back. And when we say in court. You were in court.

[Christine Fillmore]

I was in court. Hi, Maria.

[Andrea Canning]

You've said many times how tiny this courtroom is. This has been going on for weeks. It seems like every. Everyone is just feeling a little cooped up in that courtroom. What's the mood been like?

[Christine Fillmore]

Oh, boy, Andrea, Everyone seems to be feeling a little depleted. The judge, the attorneys and the jurors. Everyone has shown signs of fatigue at times. There have been a few testy exchanges. You know, a long trial is tough on everyone.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, well, we are in the home stretch and we will talk about that in a minute. But sue, let's start with this motion for mistrial that happened on Monday afternoon. What happened with that?

[Christine Fillmore]

So it's not unusual, as you know, Andrea, to see a motion for a mistrial. Either side can do this if they believe the other side has made a big mistake. But there are times when it's done more to get it on the record, perhaps with an eye to an appeal. So here's what happened. On Monday, the defense called an accident reconstructionist named Daniel Wolf to the stand. And during the cross examination, the prosecutor asked Wolf about holes in the back of the sweatshirt that John o' Keefe was wearing when he died. The prosecutor made it sound like the holes could have been caused by road rash after John o' Keefe was hit by a car. But the defense jumped up to say those holes were actually made by a forensic expert who examined the sweatshirt during the investigation. And Andrea, defense attorney Bob Alessi really let the prosecutors have it.

[Andrea Canning]

And now what we have is we have holes in the back of the sweatshirt that were dramatically held up to and confronted with Dr. Wolf. And then the jury sees it with.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

The clear, unmistakable.

[Andrea Canning]

Purposeful intention of having the jury conclude that these holes could have come from events on January 29th of 2022. What could be more egregious? What could be more misleading than that? What did the prosecution have to say in response?

[Christine Fillmore]

Well, prosecutor Hank Brennan admitted that he'd made A mistake. And that's un for such an experienced attorney. Brennan said he just went through the lab paperwork too quickly. Judge Canoni dismissed the mistrial motion, but she did say she'd include an instruction for jurors, advising them that the holes had been made during the investigation. And, you know, there was a bit of tension between the judge and the defense as she was going over the wording of her note.

[Andrea Canning]

I instruct you that you are not permitted to draw any inference that those holes. Polls were a result of the events on January 29. 20. So I. All right, this is what I'm going to say. So if you're not going to listen to it, that's fine. I've already said it. All right, we can bring the jury in. It's what I said. I'm not showing disrespectful. Okay, Sue. Now we're going to talk about another defense witness, a forensic pathologist. But before she even started testifying, there was a lot of discussion between the lawyers and the judge about what she was allowed to say. So tell us about this witness and why there was so much back and forth surrounding her.

[Christine Fillmore]

Right. So this was a woman named Dr. Elizabeth La Posada. She used to be the chief medical examiner of Rhode island, and she studied John o' Keefe's autopsy and other records, you know, like police records, documents from the hospital. Her testimony was supposed to deal with John o' Keefe's injuries, but there was a debate over whether she could say those wounds on his arm were caused by a dog. You know, finally, Judge Kanoni ruled that La Posada wasn't qualified as an expert on dog injuries, but she allowed her to say that the wounds could be from an animal.

[Andrea Canning]

What else did the defense ask her about this. This pathologist?

[Christine Fillmore]

So Alan Jackson asked her about that serious injury on John o' Keefe's head.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Could you describe that, specifically, his head.

[Andrea Canning]

Injuries to the jurors, please?

Well, as we say, he has a pattern head injury on the back of his scalp, where there is a tearing of the scalp, and then vertically above that, there is some little areas of scraping to the skin. So that tells me that Mr. O' Keefe went backwards onto something that had a little ridge.

[Christine Fillmore]

She explained that the injury couldn't have been caused by John O. Keefe falling onto a flat surface like the driveway. She also talked about a cut on his eyelid that she said was consistent with some application of force, which broke the skin.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Dr. Lapisada, you just mentioned that the laceration above the Right eyelid was consistent with the application of force, correct?

[Andrea Canning]

Correct.

You said it could come from some object, is that right?

Correct. It was fairly small. Could be some sort of object.

Is it also consistent with a fist?

Sure. A fist is an object.

The pathologist's interactions with the prosecutor on cross were sometimes testy. Good afternoon, Dr. Lapasada.

Six minutes till the afternoon. Good afternoon.

[Christine Fillmore]

Yeah. He questioned La Posada's background, particularly about her neurological expertise, since she was testifying about o' Keeffe's head injury. And that led to a memorable exchange.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Do you agree that her brain is very soft, consistent with, for example, tofu?

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, gross. What do you mean it is soft?

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Is it that soft? Is that the texture of it?

[Andrea Canning]

Well, it depends on what kind of tofu you have.

Okay.

[Christine Fillmore]

The prosecutor also pressed La Posada on whether o' Keeffe's arm injuries could have been caused by pieces of the tail light flying off Karen Reed's suv. And he asked her about the effects of the impact of the vehicle hitting o' Keefe. But La Posada held firm. She insisted the car did not hit him.

[Andrea Canning]

So you didn't care to know anything.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

About the car or the data in the car because you had already formed.

[Andrea Canning]

Your opinion it did not hit him. So it was not relevant to my opinion. By looking at the body, I could tell that there was no evidence of impact with a vehicle.

All right, so, as we mentioned off the top, this is the home stretch, Sue. The defense rested their case on Wednesday afternoon, and we are looking ahead now to closing arguments based on sitting in the courtroom day after day. Any idea how you think both sides will wrap things up?

[Christine Fillmore]

Well, of course, Andrea, you know they're both going to drive their arguments home. The prosecutor saying Karen Reed reversed her car into her boyfriend deliberately, and the defense saying no way o' Keefe was beaten up by others in the house that night. And the thing is, Andrea, this whole case comes down to a car, a couple apparently arguing, and a few seconds. That's what the data in the car and on John o' Keefe's phone tell us, that whatever happened was over in seconds. Either he was hit or. Or he was in the house. So what actually happened in that tiny, tiny time frame?

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. All right, sue, well, maybe next week we'll have you back to talk about an actual verdict. Wouldn't that be something?

[Christine Fillmore]

Thanks, Andrea. Talk soon.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up, a former sheriff's deputy faces criminal charges in the case that inspired the thing about Pam.

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[Lisa Terkers]

Is broken, it can feel like your whole world has shattered, doesn't it? Whether it's a series of small cracks or a complete fracture, best selling author Lisa Terkers knows this pain. Lisa's new book, the Trust Journey, is an invitation to work through the doubts, the fear and the pain. It's a path forward to repair what can be repaired and to find peace with what cannot. Look for the Trust Journey everywhere. Books are sold.

[Andrea Canning]

On Tuesday afternoon, Russ Faria walked into the Lincoln County Courthouse in Missouri, the same courthouse where he was wrongfully convicted in 2013 of murdering his wife. He was then acquitted two years later at a second trial. This week, he watched as the former sheriff's deputy who testified against him was taken into custody and charged with lying on the witness stand. If you don't know Russ Faria's name, you probably know the name of the person who now stands accused of murdering his wife. We are talking about Pam Hupp. She's been the subject of multiple Dateline episodes, an NBC scripted miniseries starring Renee Zellweger, and a hit podcast from our own Keith Morrison.

[Keith Morrison]

I'm Keith Morrison. This is Dateline NBC's newest podcast, the Thing About Pam.

[Andrea Canning]

In 2016, Pam Hupp fatally shot a man in her house. She claimed it was in self defense, but investigators uncovered an elaborate scheme. They accused Pam of luring the victim to her home by posing as a Dateline producer, all part of her plan to frame Russ Faria as a violent man. Hupp took an Alford plea and was sentenced to life in prison without parole. It was then that investigators started looking at Hupping for the murder of Russ's wife, Betsy. There was a new prosecutor in office, and he didn't just dust off the Betsy Faria case file. He launched an internal investigation into allegations of misconduct by the former prosecutor and law enforcement who handled the case, including Michael Merkel, that former sheriff's deputy who appeared in court this week. We've asked DATELINE producer Christine Fillmore, who's been covering this story for more than 10 years, to come on the show to bring us up to speed. Later, we'll be joined by Russ Faria himself, who will tell us what it was like to go back to court.

[Danny Savalos]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Christine, fill us in on Michael Merkel. What role did he play in the investigation?

[Danny Savalos]

So Merkel was a detective at the Lincoln County Sheriff's Office, and he was one of the first investigators to arrive at the scene of Betsy Faria's murder in 2011. And he took the stand at both of Russ Faria's trials to talk about the investigation.

[Andrea Canning]

Merkel has been accused of committing perjury at Russ first trial. Christine, first, let's start with the main points of his testimony that are under scrutiny.

[Danny Savalos]

Yeah. So Merkel testified about his use of Blue Star, which is similar to luminol. It's the solution that you spray onto surfaces to test for the presence of blood, and it can also react to certain cleaning agents as well. And so Merkel said when he sprayed the chemical inside of the Farrea home, there was a positive reaction on the floor, and it showed a path in the direction of the back door. And there was a reaction on the kitchen drawer that contained hand towels.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so how did that make Russ Faria look guilty? Why did that matter?

[Danny Savalos]

Well, it mattered because to the prosecutor at the time, this test result showed evidence of a cleanup indicating someone went into the kitchen where they accessed the towel drawer. And the prosecutor argued only someone who lived in that house would have known where the towel drawer was located.

[Andrea Canning]

And Russ Faria lived in that house because he was Betsy's husband.

[Danny Savalos]

Yep. And they also presented a theory that the dog was inside the home during the murder, and that was based on what looked like a bloody paw print on Betsy's pants. The prosecutor said Russ put the dog outside after the murder and then tried to clean up. And that's why the presence of blood near the back door was important to their theory. It all pointed to Russia So what.

[Andrea Canning]

Did Michael Merkel get wrong? According to the new prosecutor, Mike Wood.

[Danny Savalos]

Merkel testified that he photographed the blue luminescent reaction, but he said that the camera malfunctioned and the photo showed absolutely nothing, when in fact it captured 132 images.

[Andrea Canning]

Who found that out? That it actually captured the images, unlike what he said.

[Danny Savalos]

So that's interesting. It wasn't until shortly before the Russ retrial that the defense attorney received an anonymous envelope with a disc. And it had. Yeah, it had all 132 images.

[Andrea Canning]

And what was on the images that worked in Russ Faria's favor?

[Danny Savalos]

According to the NOW prosecutor, they didn't show evidence of a cleanup.

[Andrea Canning]

So is the prosecutor then alleging that the former deputy Merkel lied on purpose?

[Danny Savalos]

Yes, the prosecutor told me he believes Merkel lied about the camera because the photos didn't show what he put in his. They didn't support evidence of a cleanup.

[Andrea Canning]

And Merkel is denying this.

[Danny Savalos]

He's pleaded not guilty to perjury.

[Andrea Canning]

Christine, what is the motive here? Why does the prosecutor believe Merkel lied?

[Danny Savalos]

Well, Prosecutor Wood told dateline I've always held the opinion that this was an orchestrated and well organized effort among all of law enforcement to manipulate and secrete evidence in order to secure conviction against Russ Faria.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, and we already mentioned the internal investigation the new prosecutor launched into how investigators handled the Betsy Faria case. Christine, it turns out these perjury charges aren't the first time Merkel has caught Wood's attention.

[Danny Savalos]

That's right. So before Merkel was charged with perjury, this was back in 2022. He was charged with stalking and harassing the lead detective who was in charge of the internal investigation. And the prosecutor believes it was in hopes of preventing the internal investigation from moving forward. He's pleaded not guilty to those charges as well and was out on bond awaiting trial when these latest perjury charges came down. And we should say the internal investigation isn't complete. Prosecutor Wood told us that there will be more charges to come for other members of law enforcement in the next few months.

[Andrea Canning]

Christine, you've also spoken to Merkel's defense attorney. What was his response to these perjury charges?

[Danny Savalos]

He says his client is going to be completely exonerated and he called the perjury charges a political stunt.

[Andrea Canning]

Thanks, Christine. Now we're going to hear from Russ. So, Russ, tell us what it was like to attend Michael Merkel's hearing and see him in handcuffs.

[Sue Simpson]

Well, it was quite refreshing, actually, to kind of be a part of it. And to realize that this is actually happening. His lawyer was trying to argue that the crime was victimless, which I disagree.

[Andrea Canning]

With wholeheartedly, of course, because if the prosecutor is right, you were a victim.

[Sue Simpson]

And that's exactly what the prosecutor was arguing. Went as far as to point me out in the courtroom and just tell the judge and the attorneys present, you know, ask this man if he doesn't think he was a victim.

[Andrea Canning]

Russ, you've been living with this every day for more than 13 years. What has life been like for you recently?

[Sue Simpson]

Well, I got married in October of 23.

[Andrea Canning]

Congrats.

[Sue Simpson]

I run a local motorcycle shop. I just go out and have fun and trying to put pieces back together and live a normal life.

[Andrea Canning]

You are still waiting for justice in Betsy's case. Pam Hupp is scheduled for trial in August 2026. She has pleaded not guilty. Do you plan to be at the trial?

[Sue Simpson]

I am planning on being at the trial and then I've also in contact with Mike, with the prosecutor and he expects to call me as a witness in the trial.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, Russ, thank you for your time today.

[Sue Simpson]

Well, thanks a lot for the opportunity to come on.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, it's time for DATELINE Roundup. We've got the dramatic testimony of the prosecution's star witness at the trial of former major league baseball player Dan Serafini. Plus, NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos on what he says is one of the most important and least discussed parts of a trial. Jury instructions.

[Treadwell]

Want the same expert advice from the pros at a discount tire store while shopping for tires online. Meet Treadwell, your personal tire guide. Treadwell is an online tire buying guide that gives you personalized recommendations. Shop for tires with [e-mail] when trust.

[Lisa Terkers]

Is broken, it can feel like your whole world has shattered, doesn't it? Whether it's a series of small cracks or a complete fracture, best selling author Lisa Terkers knows this pain. Lisa's new book, the Trust Journey, is an invitation to work through the doubts, the fear and the pain. It's a path forward to repair what can be repaired and to find peace with what cannot. Look for the Trust Journey. Everywhere books are sold.

[Andrea Canning]

When it comes to preventing pregnancy, it's your choice how you take control of your body. And when it comes to a backup plan, there's plan B. One step Plan B is safe, effective emergency contraception. You take within 72 hours after unprotected sex. The sooner you take it, the better it works. Plan B helps prevent pregnancy before it starts by temporarily delaying Ovulation, no egg, no fertilization, no pregnancy. Get it in all 50 US states at all major retailers. Visit plan B1step.com to learn more. Welcome back. For this week's roundup, we're joined by DATELINE digital producer Veronica Mazza. Hey, Veronica. Hi.

[Veronica Mazza]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

So, Veronica, first up, we are checking back in on the murder trial of former major league baseball pitcher Dan Serafini. He is accused of the 2021 murder of his father in law, Gary Spore, and the attempted murder of his mother in law, Wendy W. At their Lake Tahoe home. He has pleaded not guilty. So, Veronica, key witness is on the stand this week.

[Veronica Mazza]

Yeah, that's right. We are talking about Samantha Scott. She is the woman who pleaded guilty earlier this year to being an accessory to the crime, saying that she was the one who drove Serafini to his in laws house the day of the attack.

[Andrea Canning]

She gave a pretty detailed description of what Sarafini had with him that day.

[Veronica Mazza]

Yes, she testified that he had a gun and and a homemade silencer inside a backpack. He also had a face mask.

[Andrea Canning]

So that's interesting because the the man caught on surveillance camera, if you'll recall, there was surveillance video of a man walking up the victim's driveway into their home just hours before the shooting. And that man had a backpack.

[Veronica Mazza]

That's right.

[Andrea Canning]

Samantha Scott testified that she didn't know about Serafini's alleged plans to murder his in laws that day. Did she say when she started to get suspicious of what was happening?

[Veronica Mazza]

So the shootings were in June and she said that over the summer her concerns began to grow. She testified that Dan eventually confessed and threatened her not to tell anyone. He even said he would harm her family.

[Andrea Canning]

Something else we learned this week, Veronica. Samantha Scott testified about when she and Sarah Feeney became lovers. According to her testimony, she says that didn't happen until after the murder.

[Veronica Mazza]

Yes, she said it was a few months later and it was on and off until her arrest. When the prosecutor asked her if she still loves Sarah Feeney, she couldn't give a straight answer.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, so Samantha Scott will be back on the stand for cross examination by Serafini's defense attorney. And we'll keep an eye on that. Next up, we're back in Arizona at Lori Valo Debel's third trial. She is accused of conspiring to kill Brandon Boudreau, her niece's former husband. She has pleaded not guilty and is representing herself at trial. Brandon himself testified at the end of last week. Veronica, what Was that like, hearing from him?

[Veronica Mazza]

So Boudreau was the prosecution's first witness, and he described the day he said he dropped his kids off at school, was heading home from the gym, and noticed a green Jeep.

[Andrea Canning]

And then the back window pops up. I see a muzzle, I hear a bang. And so I just immediately thought, someone's shooting at me. Wow, that is scary. Also last week, Veronica, in a pretty tense exchange, the judge removed Lori from the courtroom. What happened there?

[Veronica Mazza]

There was an exchange outside the presence of the jury, and it involved Lori demanding a hearing to introduce character evidence specifically pertaining to her being a good person. And here's what the judge had to say about that.

[Treadwell]

If you're going to introduce how you.

[Andrea Canning]

Have great character and good character, we're going to have a short hearing on.

[Treadwell]

What evidence that they can bring in.

[Andrea Canning]

To rebut that character, which could include.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Being convicted of four murders.

[Andrea Canning]

Would you like your advice, Advisory Council during the break? You don't need to yell at me either. Okay. Yeah, you are. And you do not need to talk to me that way. I'm very curious. I'm very courteous to you.

[Treadwell]

No, you have been nothing near courteous to me during the course of these proceedings.

[Veronica Mazza]

And it all ended with her being escorted out of the courtroom.

[Andrea Canning]

Wow. This week, things have been a little calmer, and the state got through all of its witnesses. Lori Valo Debel didn't call any witnesses, so it seems like this trial will end soon. Thank you so much for all this great information. We appreciate it.

[Veronica Mazza]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

As we mentioned earlier, closing arguments are set to begin this week in Karen Reed's retrial. That means pretty soon a jury of six men and six women will get the case to start deliberating. But before that can happen, Judge Beverly Canoni will read their jury instructions. Jury instruction is a part of the trial we don't really talk too much about. But according to NBC News, legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Savalo said, can be a pivotal moment. If anything goes wrong with the instructions, they can be grounds for a mistrial or even an acquittal. Danny is here to tell us more. Hey, Danny.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Hey.

[Andrea Canning]

I know you're going to make this interesting, right?

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Oh, yeah. Well, jury instructions, you know, they are quietly, arguably one of the most important, if not the most important moment in a trial. And it's a part of trial that most people just don't see or hear about.

[Andrea Canning]

Simple, but not simple question. Danny, what are jury instructions?

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Jury instructions are basically at the end of the case, the jury's heard all of these facts, all of this evidence, but they've heard nothing really about the law. That's when the judge tells them what the law is so that the jury now can take the facts that they've decided. The evidence that they've heard, they try to apply it to the law as the judge gives it to them. But jury instructions run from everything from the actual law on the charged crimes to things like if the defendant doesn't testify, you cannot hold that against her. So there are a lot of jury instructions beyond just what the alleged crime is and the elements of that crime.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And it's funny because for someone like me covering trials over the years, I've been there for many a jury instruction where you're like, oh, gosh, can we just be done with this? You know, because you've been waiting so long for these deliberations to start.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Yes. Jury instructions is one of those events that lasts a long time. And the attorneys are battling out over words. And what happens is, my last one in federal court took all day. They excuse the jury, and then we start hashing out and arguing over jury instructions. And I have to tell you, it was the one moment in trial that I came the closest to getting held in contempt. That's how contentious it can be. And you realize that if you're not vigilant about every word that goes into jury instructions, you could win or lose a case.

[Andrea Canning]

So that would be a really important one for the defense. What you just mentioned, you know that you cannot hold it against a defendant if they don't take the stand because you don't want jurors thinking, oh, well, they must be guilty. You know, they're not shouting from the rooftops that they're innocent.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

It's arguably the most important one. And other instructions like that, like the. The burden of beyond a reasonable doubt, those are very, very important for the defense.

[Andrea Canning]

What do you think is important to the prosecution during jury instructions?

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

I think that they're often given instructions about experts, you know, how they should weigh expert testimony.

[Andrea Canning]

We mentioned off the top, you know, that if there's a mistake with jury instructions, this could be a mistrial. This could affect a later appeal. What can go wrong with jury instructions that can blow up a trial?

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Consider this. As much as academics and scholars and judges and attorneys make all these efforts to write jury instructions that educate the jury on what the law is in a clear, layman style language, juries still have tons of questions about jury instructions. And the general feeling among defense attorneys and prosecutors is that your best ground for appeal is some flaw in the jury instructions.

[Andrea Canning]

I've covered so many of these cases and I didn't even realize that a lot of these appeals were because of jury instructions. I always say you learn something new every day on Dateline or Dateline True Crime Weekly. Let's bring it back to Karen Reed. There's three charges on the table. There's accusations of a cover up, that she's being framed. What do you think is the most important element of the jury instructions for the prosecution and the defense?

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

For the defense, I think it's the burden of beyond a reasonable doubt, because what the defense did this time around, they're not going as heavy on the conspiracy theory. My suspicion is that they will get up and argue that they have simply not proven that there is a collision beyond a reasonable doubt for the prosecution, as is usually the case. The elements of each crime will explain to the jury, look, the intent that you have to prove for some of these crimes is relatively low. It's not necessarily a specific intent to kill in this manner. So she can still be convicted. And I think that's probably what helps the prosecution in this case.

[Andrea Canning]

Karen Reid's first trial ended in a mistrial. Do you think that that will factor into these jury instructions and what each side is arguing, you know, to try to make sure that that doesn't happen again.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Right. So, I mean, the fear during deliberation is that the jury will be hopelessly deadlocked. And what you may see is something that defense attorneys generally don't like. It's an instruction that they don't get at the beginning of instructions, but it's called in the federal system an Allen charge. And it's basically an instruction that tells the jury if they are deadlocked, no other jury could do this better than you. Go back and work harder and really try to come to a resolution.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, so, Danny, thank you. I knew you would make this interesting.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

Thank you. And jury instructions are interesting.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To get ad free listening for all of our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium and make sure to check out the latest season of the Dateline Missing in America America podcast. Josh Mankiewicz is back with six all new episodes about missing persons cases around the country. And in one case we cover this season, I might have encountered the missing person myself.

[Lisa Terkers]

I had a strong sense when I.

[Christine Fillmore]

Heard her name that I had met your mom.

[Andrea Canning]

Wow.

Listen closely. You could be the key to solving a mystery. The first episode is out now, wherever you get your podcasts. And coming up this Friday on dateline, I'm bringing you one of the most intriguing cases I've ever covered. In 2001, 17 year old Alyssa Turney went missing from her home in Phoenix, Arizona. What ensued was a decades long search for answers led by two determined siblings.

[Dr. Elizabeth La Posada]

It made me think, maybe there's a.

[Andrea Canning]

Chance my sister will get justice. But what if justice meant tearing their family apart? Watch my episode, the Day Alyssa Disappeared this Friday on NBC at 9, 8 Central. Thanks for listening. DATELINE True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuriloff. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of dateline.

See you soon. Bye.

[Keith Morrison]

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