Verdict watch in hairstylist murder trial. "Mommy Doomsday" represents herself. And Sean Combs latest.

Summary

Dateline NBC: Verdict Watch, Self-Representation, and Sean Combs’ Latest Charges Release Date: April 10, 2025

In this gripping episode of Dateline NBC, the team delves into multiple high-stakes legal battles, offering listeners an in-depth exploration of ongoing trials, legal strategies, and shocking developments in the world of true crime. From courtroom dramas to celebrity legal woes, this episode covers it all with meticulous detail and expert analysis.

---

Monica Sementilli Murder Trial: Final Deliberations

The episode opens with the culmination of the long-running murder trial of Monica Sementilli, accused of conspiring with her lover, Robert Baker, to kill her husband, Fabio. After nearly 40 days of intense testimony, including accounts from two convicted killers, the jury has begun deliberations.

Deputy DA Beth Silverman delivered a powerful closing statement emphasizing the overwhelming evidence against Monica:

"[02:46] Leonard Levine: We're not here because she's a horrible person. We're not here because she's a cheater or a liar or any of the other words that you could use. We're here because she's a killer."

Despite the prosecution's strong case, Monica’s defense argued that the evidence only proved her involvement in an affair, not the murder itself. Prosecutor Silverman highlighted Monica's unusual behavior post-murder, suggesting her calm demeanor indicated knowledge of her husband's true killer:

"[05:29] Andrea Canning: Yeah. The prosecution pointed out that Monica's behavior made sense if she knew who the killer was."

Dateline producer Jessica De Vera provided a comprehensive breakdown of the courtroom dynamics, detailing how both sides presented their arguments and the strategic maneuvers employed by Monica’s defense team. The episode leaves listeners on edge as the jury's verdict remains pending, promising further updates in upcoming segments.

---

Lori Valo Daybell: Representing Herself in Court

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the trial of Lori Valo Daybell, a woman with a notorious history, including the conviction of murdering two of her children and conspiring to kill Tammy Daybell, her fifth husband. Now, Lori faces new charges in Arizona for conspiring to murder her fourth husband, Charles Vallow.

Unlike her previous trial in Idaho, Lori has chosen to represent herself in Arizona, a bold and risky legal strategy. Host Andrea Canning interviews Nate Eaton, the news director at East Idaho News, who explains the public’s fascination with Lori's self-representation:

"[13:32] Nate Eaton: I think one of the big draws about this is that Lori Daybell is representing herself. People want to see how she acts in court..."

Throughout the trial, Lori exhibits a mix of prepared questions and emotional displays, including wiping away tears during her opening statement. Her decision to forgo legal counsel has garnered both scrutiny and intrigue, as experts weigh the potential consequences of her strategy.

Legal analyst Danny Savalos provides critical insights into the challenges Lori faces without professional representation:

"[27:46] Danny Savalos: The pro se defendant is both the bane and the glory of the criminal justice system... I stand by this one. It is never a good idea to go it alone."

The episode explores Lori's motivations for self-representation, including a desire to expedite the trial and a belief in her ability to effectively defend herself. As the trial progresses, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the complexities and risks associated with acting as one's own attorney.

---

Sean "Diddy" Combs' Latest Criminal Charges

Adding to the episode's intensity, music mogul Sean "Diddy" Combs faces new federal charges related to sex trafficking and racketeering. Prosecution has expanded the indictment with two additional charges:

1. Sex Trafficking
2. Transportation to Engage in Prostitution

These charges involve allegations that Combs coerced a woman, referred to as Victim Two, into engaging in commercial sex acts from 2021 to 2024. Dateline producer Rachel White reports on the evolving legal battle:

"[21:36] Rachel White: So federal prosecutors have added two new charges to the indictment against Combs..."

The episode reveals that Victim One has been identified as Cassie Ventura, a former girlfriend and musical artist who previously filed a civil suit against Combs for abuse. The settlement of her lawsuit and subsequent revelations, including surveillance footage depicting alleged violence, have intensified the case against Combs.

Combs maintains his innocence, with his legal team arguing that the charges stem from private consensual relationships and questioning the authenticity of the surveillance footage:

"[22:39] Andrea Canning: ...prosecutors are calling victim one is Cassie and she will be testifying."

The segment underscores the high-profile nature of the case and the significant implications it holds for both Combs and the victims involved. As the trial approaches, listeners are kept abreast of the latest developments and strategic moves by both prosecution and defense teams.

---

Karen Reed’s Retrial: Legal Maneuvering in Massachusetts

Karen Reed, accused of killing her police officer boyfriend with her SUV three years ago, is also under the spotlight as her retrial in Massachusetts moves forward. The episode covers the ongoing jury selection process and the recent legal tactics employed by Reed's defense team.

Dateline producer Rachel White details the complexities of the jury pool:

"[24:36] Rachel White: So we're taping this at the end of day seven of jury selection... 92% of potential jurors said they knew about the case."

The defense has filed an emergency petition with the U.S. Supreme Court, arguing that the retrial violates the double jeopardy clause. However, the Supreme Court has refused to intervene, allowing the trial to proceed:

"[25:38] Rachel White: The Supreme Court has refused to take up her case. It looks like Reid's trial is moving full steam ahead."

This segment highlights the intense legal strategies and the challenges faced in high-profile retrials, providing listeners with a nuanced view of the American judicial system in action.

---

Legal Insights: The Pitfalls of Self-Representation

In a compelling analysis segment, NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos discusses the ramifications of pro se (self-representation) in criminal trials, using Lori Valo Daybell’s case as a primary example.

Savalos emphasizes the constitutional right to represent oneself but warns of its inherent challenges:

"[27:11] Danny Savalos: The pro se defendant is both the bane and the glory of the criminal justice system. And I say the glory because there is a constitutional right to represent yourself in the Sixth Amendment."

He argues that self-representation often leads to unfavorable outcomes due to a lack of legal expertise and objectivity:

"[28:10] Danny Savalos: It is never a good idea to go it alone."

Using historical examples like Ted Bundy, Savalos illustrates the dire consequences of inadequate legal representation:

"[28:36] Danny Savalos: Absolutely. He just had a rambling defense. Made no sense."

The discussion also touches on the emotional and strategic difficulties defendants face when acting as their own attorneys, reinforcing the importance of professional legal counsel in navigating complex legal landscapes.

---

Conclusion

This episode of Dateline NBC masterfully intertwines multiple high-stakes legal narratives, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of each case's intricacies. From the suspense of ongoing trials to expert legal analysis, the episode serves as an essential guide for true crime enthusiasts seeking detailed and engaging content.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Deputy DA Beth Silverman on Monica Sementilli:
  "We're not here because she's a horrible person... We're here because she's a killer." ([02:46])

• Danny Savalos on Self-Representation:
  "It is never a good idea to go it alone." ([28:10])

• Keith Morrison in Lori Daybell's Trial:
  "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I have been charged with a crime... The evidence will show that I ran outside to the children and that Alex shot Charles in self defense." ([16:22])

---

For more updates and in-depth true crime stories, tune into Dateline NBC and stay informed with the latest in legal battles and investigative journalism.

Transcript

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[Nate Eaton]

Good morning.

[Andrea Canning]

You are listening in to Dateline's Morning Meeting here at 30 Rockefeller Center. This story's getting some attention. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news around the she and the husband both meet with the police to report the stalking incidents. How long after that interrogation was he arrested?

[Jessica De Vera]

As you may have gathered, you know.

[Andrea Canning]

These open marriages can get a little crowded. Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's April 10th, and here's what's on our docket. Earlier this week, Lori Valo Daybell gave the opening statement at her own trial in Arizona, accused of conspiring to murder her fourth husband, Charles Val. She's decided to represent herself. But will her high stakes legal gamble pay off?

[Nate Eaton]

I guess it will be seen if it really goes off the rails. So far it has not.

[Andrea Canning]

Later on, we'll be talking to NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Savalos about his take on defendants like Lori who choose to represent themselves.

[Danny Savalos]

There's an old saying, he who represents himself has a fool for a client.

[Andrea Canning]

Plus other stories we're watching this week. Karen Reid's defense team tries to stop her retrial in its tracks. And new criminal charges are filed against music mogul Sean Diddy Combs.

[Rachel White]

These new charges relate to a woman referred to as Victim two.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're headed back to a California courtroom for the final chapter in the trial of the woman accused of plotting to murder her celebrity hairstylist husband. Yesterday, after nearly 40 days of testimony that included two convicted killers taking the stand, the jury finally began deliberations in the murder trial of Monica Sementilli. She's the woman accused of conspiring with her lover, Robert Baker, to kill her husband, Fabio. In her closing statement, Los Angeles County Deputy DA Beth Silverman told the Jury that the evidence spoke for itself.

[Leonard Levine]

We're not here because she's a horrible person. We're not here because she's a cheater or a liar or any of the other words that you could use. We're here because she's a killer.

[Andrea Canning]

But the defense told the jury the state had not proven its case against Monica. They said she had nothing to do with the crime. Robert Baker, who admitted to killing Fabio, even testified to that. The defense argued in closings that the evidence proved the only thing Monica was guilty of was having an affair.

[Beth Silverman]

If you presume she is innocent, as the law requires, everything she did was to protect the affair, not to cover up the murder. You know what? Everything falls into place.

[Andrea Canning]

Dateline producer Jessica De Vera has been following the case throughout the trial and joins us now to tell us what's been happening in the courtroom. Jess, thanks for joining us.

[Jessica De Vera]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

There's been so much leading up to this. How did prosecutor Beth Silverman begin her closing arguments?

[Jessica De Vera]

She basically took them back to what she said in opening statements. Right. She reminded the jurors that this would be a case about betrayal, you know, because jurors can't look things up during deliberations. She actually read them a dictionary definition of what betrayal means.

[Leonard Levine]

Deception, disloyalty. Treachery. Duplicity. Devious. Cheat. Trickery. Fraud. Cunning. Each of those words perfectly describe this defendant who was the mastermind behind her own adoring husband's gruesome murder.

[Jessica De Vera]

She talked about Monica and Fabio's marriage and how she betrayed his trust as well as her own family, friends, and children. And she described the love affair between Monica and Robert Baker as not just, you know, a regular affair. She said it was obsessive and all consuming.

[Andrea Canning]

And this affair, this really goes to what the prosecution says was Monica's motive to kill Fabio.

[Jessica De Vera]

That's right. Beth Silverman said that Monica knew her family would never accept Robert Baker and that she needed to portray herself as a victim in order to get her family on board. The prosecution also highlighted how Monica's behavior after the murder did not match what you would expect of someone who believed their home was the target of a burglary turned murder. Right. Instead, Monica was spending time with Baker, going to comedy clubs, bars, partying it up at night instead of staying home with her kids.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. The prosecution pointed out that Monica's behavior made sense if she knew who the killer was.

[Leonard Levine]

If she didn't know who the killer was, you think she would be leaving her kids alone in the Home.

[Andrea Canning]

No.

[Leonard Levine]

The reason she does that is because she knows they're not in any danger because the real killer is out with her.

[Andrea Canning]

The prosecutor's closing remarks also really just summarized a lot of the testimony that you had heard all through the trial. And this was a particularly long closing argument. Not something you usually see. Usually they're both sides are over in, like, a day. Not. Not in this case.

[Jessica De Vera]

That's right. I've never seen this before. This went on for three days.

[Andrea Canning]

That is incredible. And, of course, the defense also had their turn. Let's take a listen to defense attorney Leonard Levine.

[Beth Silverman]

Most of those witnesses were here to establish that Monica Simmentilli had an affair and to disparage her character. And they did a damn good job, and much of it was earned. But we're not here to decide whether or not Monica Simmentilli was a bad wife, an adulteress. You are here to decide if she's been proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And I submit to you, if the evidence was that clear, it would not have taken eight years and eight weeks of testimony to prove it.

[Andrea Canning]

Levine was quite critical of Monica in his closing arguments. You often hear that from the prosecution, and we certainly did hear that from the prosecution. But this was her own defense attorney pointing out her flaws as a strategy.

[Jessica De Vera]

That's right. You know, he urged the jury not to look at her with sympathy because she, you know, did have this affair with Robert Baker, but to find her innocent because of reasonable doubt.

[Beth Silverman]

Before you go into your deliberation room, take one last look at her. Not with any sympathy. She doesn't deserve any sympathy, but look at her and say to yourself, innocent, because what the law requires you to do is exactly that.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense also went back over some of the testimony in detail. They focused on the testimony of Christopher Austin. He was the man who committed the murder alongside Robert Baker and testified for the state during the trial. Why did the defense go back at his testimony?

[Jessica De Vera]

Right. So the defense reiterated that Austin took a plea deal. Right. And is expected to receive a shorter sentence as a result of his testimony. So they wanted to make sure to point out to the jury that he had an incentive to lie, to make up a story that was far from the truth.

[Andrea Canning]

And they also emphasized that Christopher Austin never spoke with Monica directly or really even heard conversations about the murder plot.

[Jessica De Vera]

Correct. So the defense pointed out to the jury that he never heard, you know, a conversation between Monica and Baker. This was all information that Baker was telling him.

[Beth Silverman]

Austin said, Baker told me she wanted him dead. Baker Told me it was for insurance. Baker told me this is how it was going to happen. Did you meet with Monica?

[Andrea Canning]

Never.

[Beth Silverman]

Did you talk with her?

[Andrea Canning]

Never.

[Beth Silverman]

Did she tell you anything? Never. And that's the evidence. They want you to convict her of a first degree murder.

[Andrea Canning]

The jury has the case and we are waiting for a verdict. I know. Again, it's so hard to know what jurors are thinking, but just a lot of information to go over. A lot of testimony, a lot of evidence.

[Jessica De Vera]

Right. I mean, and who knows how long they're going to take? We've seen it. We've seen it all at Dateline. Right. Sometimes they take an hour, sometimes they take days. And so who knows how long they will take to, to deliberate?

[Andrea Canning]

All right, thank you, Jess, for your breakdown of this.

[Jessica De Vera]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up, drama in an Arizona courtroom as Lori Valo Daybell defends herself against charges she conspired to murder her fourth husband.

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[Andrea Canning]

Nurse dietitian for the last six months and it's been life changing. I've lost weight, healed my relationship with food, and have way more energy working with a dietitian online to create a personalized nutrition plan was so easy, thanks to Nourish. The best part, I pay $0 out of pocket. Because Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans, 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com Lori Valo Daybell, her name is one most of you probably know. Keith Morrison has been covering her story for five years now on TV in his podcast series Mommy. And just last month, he had an exclusive JailHouse interview for Dateline. Did you watch your children die?

[Keith Morrison]

That's a really sad question.

[Andrea Canning]

It's a terrible question, and it's one.

[Nate Eaton]

I hate to have to ask.

[Andrea Canning]

Back in 2023, an Idaho jury convicted Lori of murdering two of her children as well as conspiring to murder Tammy Daybell, the wife of Chad Daybell, a man who called himself a doomsday prophet and who went on to become Laurie's fifth husband. This week, Laurie is on trial again, but not in Idaho. She's in Arizona, accused of conspiring to murder the man she was married to before Chad, her fourth husband, Charles Vallow. She's pleaded not guilty. And unlike her trial in Idaho, this time around, Lori has made a bold decision to represent herself.

[Keith Morrison]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I have been charged with a crime, a serious crime, and the only question here is, did I commit this crime?

[Andrea Canning]

Here to tell us how she's doing is Nate Eaton, the news director at East Idaho News who's been following this case since the beginning and even and worked with DATELINE as a consultant. He's calling us from outside the courthouse in Phoenix while the court is on break. Thank you for joining us, Nate.

[Nate Eaton]

Thanks for having me. Good to be back, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

You have been in Arizona, Nate, this whole week for the trial. Members of the public have been lining up outside the courtroom as early as 5am and some have come as far as Australia. What is the draw here?

[Nate Eaton]

I think one of the big draws about this is that Lori Daybell is representing herself. People want to see how she acts in court, what type of questions she asks, and if she will be able to present a strong enough defense to let the jury find her not guilty.

[Andrea Canning]

And she has an interesting reason why she's representing herself.

[Nate Eaton]

Yeah, I would actually say there's probably a few reasons. One of the main ones being that she wants this trial to happen now. If her defense attorneys are on her case, they need more time. They probably wouldn't even get to A trial this year. She also feels like she's able to represent herself better than somebody else. She does have a couple of advisory attorneys who do assist her, but Lori Daybell is leading the charge in this case on behalf of the defense.

[Andrea Canning]

Last time we saw Lori, she was with Keith in an orange jumpsuit. Now she's back in regular clothes, which is, you know, kind of a bit jarring.

[Nate Eaton]

Right. It's definitely different. She's been wearing business suits. And the interesting thing, though, Andrea, there's no handcuffs, there's no ankle shackles. But underneath her clothes, she's wearing what's called a rack belt. And that is like a taser belt that the deputy near her hasn't button. Yeah. She tries to run or misbehaves or tries to lunge after the judge, which, you know, she has shown no sign of that. But if she does, the deputy will hit this button, and that will kind of shock her and make her freeze.

[Andrea Canning]

So how is Lori representing herself affecting courtroom proceedings? Is she getting it? Is she not getting it?

[Nate Eaton]

I'd say a little bit of both. I'd say she definitely has studied the law or learned from her old attorneys. But there's also moments where, you know, she'll start to ask a question and there'll be an objection.

[Keith Morrison]

I just didn't see it in your report, but I saw it on the body cam, so I wondered if you knew. I'm gonna object to the defendant testifying.

[Andrea Canning]

All right. Please only ask questions. Sure.

[Commercial Voice]

When you make statements about what you.

[Andrea Canning]

Saw or heard, that's testimony.

[Nate Eaton]

I apologize, you, Honor, but she had everything written out and prepared. She is questioning the witnesses, and I guess it will be seen if it really goes off the rails. So far, it has not.

[Andrea Canning]

Opening statements started Monday of this week. Let's start with the prosecution. What do they say happened to Charles Vallow? We know he was Laurie's fourth husband and that she was actually estranged from him when he died.

[Nate Eaton]

It was July of 2019, when he showed up to pick up his son to take him to school, when Laurie's brother Alex shot and killed him in the front room of the home. The prosecutor says that this was a murder that was preplanned, and the motive was that Lori wanted $1 million in life insurance and that she wanted to be with a new man, her new lover, Chad Dabel.

[Andrea Canning]

After the prosecution, Lori made her opening statement. What did she want the jury to know? Right out of the gate, Lori and.

[Nate Eaton]

Her brother Alex, who's now dead, say that this was a self defense action. Lori said that Charles tried to attack her, go after her, and that he hit her brother with a baseball bat in the back of the head.

[Keith Morrison]

The evidence will show that after the struggle on the ground between Charles and Alex, that Charles prevailed with the bat and began to come towards me with the bat as I ran away from him into the kitchen. The evidence will show that at some point while I was running away from Charles, who was chasing me with the bat, that Alex apparently retrieved his gun. The evidence will show that I ran outside to the children and that Alex shot Charles in self defense.

[Andrea Canning]

She's saying Alex intervened to defend them.

[Nate Eaton]

Right.

[Andrea Canning]

You saw her get emotional telling this story in her opening statements.

[Nate Eaton]

Yeah. She took off her glasses, was wiping away the tears.

[Keith Morrison]

The evidence will show you that I drove the children away from the residence towards JJ's school.

[Andrea Canning]

Did I grab a tissue?

[Jessica De Vera]

Yes.

[Nate Eaton]

And then she ended with. This was a family tragedy.

[Keith Morrison]

Spouses having insurance policies is not a crime. Collecting Social Security is not a crime. Self defense is not a crime. A family tragedy is not a crime. It's a tragedy.

[Andrea Canning]

Thank you. The prosecution has already questioned a number of witnesses. Who and what did we learn from them?

[Nate Eaton]

We've heard from the firefighters and the police officers who arrived at the scene. They have evidence that Charles was shot once by Alex Cox, and then when he fell to the ground, it appears he was shot again. You could argue if it was self defense, why the need to shoot a wounded man who was on the ground and a bullet was lodged in the wooden floor. So we're expected to hear the medical examiner testify about that. One of the interesting things they've said, all of them have said, is just how calm Alex Cox was and how unusual Lori Daybell's behavior was. She was laughing, she was calm. She did not show the normal signs that a spouse would had their husband just been shot.

[Andrea Canning]

How has Lori been when it's her turn to cross examine these witnesses?

[Nate Eaton]

Lori has prepared herself with questions for these witnesses. She asks questions that a juror might assume any defense attorney might ask.

[Keith Morrison]

Can you tell me what the weapon was that you found?

[Nate Eaton]

It was a handgun.

[Keith Morrison]

Was it a.45?

[Nate Eaton]

Don't recall now. Where she might be missing things is an objection to the prosecutor, things like that. We haven't heard her object once.

[Andrea Canning]

What can we expect for the rest of the trial?

[Nate Eaton]

Well, we know that the prosecutor has 21 witnesses that they want to put on and they're moving pretty quick. Lori has a list of around a dozen or so witnesses, but many have not been served. Subpoenas so the prosecutor has argued that none of them should be allowed to testify. So we will see at that point in the case if the judge allows some of those witnesses in or not.

[Andrea Canning]

The big question Will Lori testify?

[Nate Eaton]

That is the big question. And she has said she's unsure. And I believe that. I believe that this may be one of those things we may not know until the morning of.

[Andrea Canning]

Nate, thank you so much for joining us. We so much appreciate it.

[Nate Eaton]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, is it ever a good idea to represent yourself in court? NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos gives us his opinion. Plus, it's time for DATELINE roundup. We've got the latest in two blockbuster cases, the retrial of Karen Reed and the federal sex trafficking case against music legend Sean Diddy Combs.

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is DATELINE producer Rachel White. Hey, Rachel.

[Rachel White]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so first up, music mogul Sean Diddy Combs has been hit with additional criminal charges ahead of his sex trafficking and racketeering trial that is coming up in May. Rachel, what do we know so far?

[Rachel White]

Yeah. So federal prosecutors have added two new charges to the indictment against Combs, one additional charges for sex trafficking. And there's another for transportation to engage in prostitution. These new charges relate to a woman referred to as victim two, who prosecutors allege Combs forced to engage in commercial sex acts from 2021 to 2024.

[Andrea Canning]

Rachel, we should remind everyone that Combs has pled not guilty to the charges against him and, and thus far he has denied everything that has been out there.

[Rachel White]

That's right. And his legal team did respond. They released a statement about this updated indictment saying, quote, these are not new accusers. These are the same individuals, former long term girlfriends involved in consensual relationships. This was their private sex life.

[Andrea Canning]

Privacy, no surprise, is a big issue in this case. The indictment is redacted in places and refers to the alleged victims as victim one, Victim two, victim three. But there was a big reveal about victim one. What did we find out?

[Rachel White]

So according to prosecutors, victim one will be using her name in court. And it's a name we've heard before. It's Cassie Ventura.

[Andrea Canning]

And to remind everyone, Cassie was Combs ex girlfriend and a well known musical artist in her own right, she made headlines in 2023 when she filed a civil suit against Combs accusing him of abusing her. And that was nearly a year before any criminal charges were even filed.

[Rachel White]

Yeah. So Sean Combs has denied any wrongdoing, but he quickly settled Ventura's lawsuit out of court. But several months later, surveillance video surfaced on CNN which appeared to show Combs striking and kicking Ventura in a hotel hallway. Combs apologized for his behavior, although recently in court, his attorneys allege that the footage might have been altered. But cnn, back when Combs was first arrested, there was a lot of speculation that victim one in the indictment must be Cassie because the indictment mirrored many of the allegations in her civil suit and described the video. So now we know the woman prosecutors are calling victim one is Cassie and she will be testifying.

[Andrea Canning]

That will be a big day in court when she testifies. What about the other alleged victims?

[Rachel White]

So we know that they will testify, but they will likely remain anonymous. Earlier this week in a court filing, prosecutors requested measures to protect their identities throughout the trial. But we'll see if Combs defense team, you know, pushes back on that.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, we're off to Massachusetts where jury selection for Karen Reed's trial continues. She is the woman accused of killing her police officer boyfriend with her SUV three years ago. Rachel, what's the latest with Karen?

[Rachel White]

So we're taping this at the end of day seven of jury selection. So far, 15 jurors have been seated. Eight men, seven women. The court is seeking 16 total jurors, so there will be 12 who will deliberate and four who will be alternates. These are some stats from our affiliate NBC10 in Boston about the jury poll. After that first week of jury selection, 92% of potential jurors said they knew about the case. 60% said they'd formed an opinion, and 17% felt biased for or against Karen Reed.

[Andrea Canning]

Those are tough percentages there for both sides. In Karen Reid's first trial, it took only five days to seat a jury. Rachel. And now, you know, it is moving, I guess, fairly quickly given the challenges. And in the middle of jury selection, Reid's defense team filed an emergency petition with the US Supreme Court seeking an immediate stop to her retrial.

[Rachel White]

That's right, and we took a look at that petition. In it, Reid claimed her retrial violates the double jeopardy clause, which prevents people from being tried twice for the same crime. Remember, after her first trial, Reid's defense team said several jurors contacted them to say the jury had agreed unanimously to acquit Reid on charges of murder and leaving the scene of the crash, but had deadlocked on the manslaughter charge. In the petition to the Supreme Court, Reed's defense team argued that manslaughter charge should be the only one she should face this time around.

[Andrea Canning]

So what happened?

[Rachel White]

The Supreme Court has refused to take up her case. It looks like Reid's trial is moving full steam ahead.

[Andrea Canning]

Rachel, thanks for joining us.

[Rachel White]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

For our final story, we're taking a deep dive into the good and bad of pro se representation, or in simple English, acting as your own attorney. We talked about Lori Valo Daybell earlier in the show, but she isn't the only person to take the reins of her defense this year. Just last week, we aired a Dateline episode about Dana Chandler, a woman acc of murdering her ex husband and his girlfriend at their home in Kansas back in 2002. Dana recently chose to represent herself at her third trial and was convicted. So we asked NBC News legal analyst Danny Ceballos to give us his take on whether it's ever a good idea to represent yourself at trial. Hey, Danny, welcome back.

[Danny Savalos]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

So let's start with the basics. We just said what the basic premise of pro se representation is, but break it down for us a little more.

[Danny Savalos]

The pro se defendant is both the bane and the glory of the criminal justice system. And I say the glory because there is a constitutional right to represent yourself in the Sixth Amendment. But Even that right is qualified. It's not absolute. It means a judge can take it away. A couple examples are, is if a defendant is disruptive, if they're just making a lot of nonsensical objections. Another example is if the defendant simply isn't competent. If they suffer from some mental illness, a judge will not automatically allow that person to represent themselves if they're not competent to do so.

[Andrea Canning]

So, you know, we, we're here at Dateline on high profile murder cases. But there, there are other courts.

[Danny Savalos]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, commonly in traffic court, people represent themselves all the time because simply the cost of paying a ticket isn't worth hiring an attorney. Sometimes people represent themselves in civil cases, divorces, all kinds of cases. But I stand by this one. It is never a good idea to go it alone.

[Andrea Canning]

And sometimes defendants feel like they know their case better than anyone else. And so who better to represent than me?

[Danny Savalos]

Yes, they know their facts better than I will ever know their facts. But you lose objectivity when you're a defendant. That's why even someone like me, if I needed a lawyer, I would hire a lawyer rather than represent myself.

[Andrea Canning]

You're too close to it sometimes. An infamous defendant that comes to mind with pro se is serial killer Ted Bundy.

[Danny Savalos]

Absolutely. He just had a rambling defense. Made no sense. And by the way, Ted Bundy was a pretty educated person. But it simply doesn't matter. Pro se defendants are warned you will be held to the same standards. As an attorney, you'll need to know all the rules of procedure. This is why they're destined to fail, because they simply don't have access to the same information. The rules, the law, especially when they're in custody. As a lawyer in the case of.

[Andrea Canning]

Dana Chandler, you know, it was said that by representing herself, you know, she, she opened the door to things that the judge had ruled were inadmiss. The other thing that was pointed out with Dana Chandler was that by taking the stand in her own defense and essentially giving the jury really a monologue because, you know, she's not asking herself questions that a lot of people felt like she showed her true colors and that was her demise. Do you think there's some instances where the jury may feel sympathetic to a defendant when they speak on their own behalf?

[Danny Savalos]

It's possible. But here's the thing. Juries, I think, are very sensitive to how self interested a pro se defendant is. And you know, you mentioned the monologue. And different courts do different things. Sometimes the court will appoint a standby counsel and they can do that over the defendant's objection. Sometimes they'll require that lawyer to ask questions on direct examination instead of that monologue style. And the monologue style, in my view, is a bad idea because an untrained defendant is going to veer into areas that are easy, either inadmissible, irrelevant, or open the door. Maybe they make a comment about, I'm not the kind of person that does this. Uh oh, you've just opened the door to character evidence. You've absolutely torpedoed your own case.

[Andrea Canning]

One other thing that, that stood out in the Dana Chandler trial that was uncomfortable was Dana Chandler ended up having to cross examine her own daughter. And the jury is seeing this mother and daughter dynamic and Dana is not being so nice to her daughter.

[Danny Savalos]

Exactly right. If you're a criminal defendant, you are privileged to sit there and say nothing. But instead, if you take take on your own defense, now you have the uncomfortable position of questioning witnesses, including family members, like this. And you have to ask questions like, did I do this? Do you remember when I did this? And jurors see that as really the defendant arguing with the witness because that's what it is. I mean, you can't detach happening and just think of this as another lawyer questioning a witness.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. All right, Danny, thank you for your insight into this unique form of representation that I think we got the message loud and clear. Don't represent yourself.

[Danny Savalos]

Not a good idea. I think I said that a few times.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, yeah. Of course, it's up to the individual, but sound advice. That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. If you have any other true crime questions you want our team to look into, send us an audio Message on social ainenbc or call us at 212-413-5252 and we'll see if we can get some answers for you. And we've got some exciting news. Our show has been nominated for a Webby Award in the crime and justice podcasts category. If you like what you're hearing, please go online and vote for Dateline. We've included the voting link in the episode description. Coming up, get ready for a Dateline packed weekend. Josh has a two hour episode airing this Friday night on NBC at our usual time of 9, 8 Central. And Dennis will be here on Saturday with a weekend mystery. Then on Sunday, watch Blaine's all new episode about a mother on a mission to find her missing daughter. Even if it meant bending some rules.

[Jessica De Vera]

Could we possibly go to a local.

[Leonard Levine]

Business and ask them to pull up.

[Andrea Canning]

Footage so we could see if she's driving her, but they're not just going to pull it up for you. I understand that.

[Leonard Levine]

I can't just not anything we thought.

[Andrea Canning]

Could be a clue to help us find her.

[Leonard Levine]

We were chasing that.

[Andrea Canning]

Watch the pin at apartment 210 this Sunday on NBC at 10, 9 Central. Thanks for listening. DATELINE True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown. Kuriloff production and fact checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of dateline. See you later. Bye Bye.

[Rachel White]

Foreign.

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