Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.

Summary

Dateline NBC Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Verdicts in both the Delphi murders trial and the case of a murdered Minnesota mom. Plus 20 years on, Keith Morrison talks about Scott Peterson.

Host: Andrea Canning
Producer: Marianne O'Donnell
Guests: Olivia Pronczynski, Blaine Alexander, Susan Liebowett, Keith Morrison

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly, host Andrea Canning delves into two high-profile verdicts: the Delphi murders and the tragic case of a murdered Minnesota mother. Additionally, the episode commemorates the 20th anniversary of Scott Peterson’s conviction, featuring insights from veteran journalist Keith Morrison.

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2. Verdict in the Delphi Murders Trial

Case Overview:
Richard Allen was tried for the brutal double murder of middle school students Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi, Indiana. The girls were found stabbed to death in a wooded area near a creek, a case that had remained unresolved for five years until Allen's arrest in 2022.

Trial Proceedings:
Marianne O'Donnell reports on the intense trial where the prosecution painted Allen as a remorseless killer, while the defense argued his innocence amid claims of a flawed investigation.

Key Evidence:

• Video Footage: A crucial element was video from Libby German's phone showing a man resembling Allen instructing the girls to descend a hill.
  Marianne O'Donnell (04:32): “Richard Allen said, I killed those girls. I had the intent to rape them, but then I saw a van passing by and I got scared.”
• Confession Credibility: The prosecution highlighted Allen’s confession, which matched witness statements about a van seen near the crime scene.

Defense Arguments:

• Condition of the Defendant: The defense showcased Allen’s deteriorated state in prison, suggesting his confession was coerced.
  Marianne O'Donnell (05:12): “The defense is saying, listen, they broke this guy in prison. Those confessions have got to be thrown out because this man was not in his right state of mind.”

• Phone Data: The defense presented evidence that Libby’s phone was plugged into a headphone jack hours after the estimated time of death, implying Allen couldn’t have been present.

Verdict:
After 19 hours of deliberation over four days, the jury found Richard Allen guilty on four counts:

• Counts 1 & 2: Felony murder for kidnapping during murder.
• Counts 3 & 4: Intentional murder.

Community Reaction:
The verdict elicited mixed reactions. While many outsiders had supported Allen, the local community in Delphi rallied to support the victims' families.
Marianne O'Donnell (06:53): “I see the street filled with people. The people of Delphi had heard about the verdict, and they came out to show their support for the families of the victims.”

Next Steps:
Sentencing is scheduled for December 20th, where Allen faces 45 to 65 years for each death.

---

3. Verdict in the Murder of a Minnesota Mom

Case Overview:
Madeline Kingsbury, a 26-year-old mother of two, disappeared in April 2023 in Winona, Minnesota. Her body was found two months later in a culvert after an extensive search involving thousands of volunteers.

Trial Proceedings:
Adam Fraville, Madeline’s ex-boyfriend, was arrested on the day her body was discovered and charged with four counts of murder, including domestic abuse-related murders.

Key Evidence:

• Abuse Allegations: Multiple instances of alleged domestic abuse were presented, including:

  • An incident where Adam reportedly pushed Madeline after she expressed distress over a news story.
  • Witnesses described bruising on Madeline’s neck.

• Premeditation Indicators:
  Olivia Pronczynski (16:36): “They had security cameras in their home and they were ripped down just a few days before she went missing. The prosecution argued that no one else knew where that culvert was besides Adam Fraville.”

Defense Arguments:

• Tunnel Vision: The defense claimed the investigation was overly focused on Fraville, potentially overlooking other suspects.
• Supervision Claims: They asserted that Fraville was under constant supervision with a car tracker, making it impossible for him to commit the murders.

Verdict:
Adam Fraville was found guilty on all four counts of murder. His sentencing is set for December 17th, where he faces a mandatory life sentence for first-degree murder in Minnesota.

Family Impact:
Madeline’s family has channeled their grief into advocacy and charity work, supporting victims' rights and aiding children in need.
Marianne O'Donnell (09:24): “Abby’s mother...does this really beautiful charity service for kids who don’t have access to things like pencils and paper and games.”

---

4. Update on Suzanne Simpson Case

Case Overview:
Suzanne Simpson, a 26-year-old mother of four from Winona, Texas, went missing in March 2023. Her body was found over a month later, leading to her husband, Brad Simpson, being charged with her murder.

Trial Developments:
Brad Simpson faces charges including murder, assault, and federal weapons offenses. Despite their separation, he and Suzanne were still living together for the sake of their children.

Key Evidence:

• Truck Items: Authorities found trash bags, an ice chest, and a large item wrapped in a blue tarp in Brad’s truck.
• Timeline Discrepancies: Brad claimed to have been fishing far from the crime scene, but evidence suggested otherwise.

Family Testimony:
Their daughter, Chandler Simpson, publicly accused Brad of abusing Suzanne and murdering her mother.
Blaine Alexander (22:52): “My father took my mother’s life in a state of rage and control.”

Current Status:
Brad Simpson maintains his innocence and intends to plead not guilty. Investigations continue as authorities search additional areas near the crime scene.

---

5. Brian Kohberger's Court Hearing

Case Overview:
Brian Kohberger is accused of murdering four University of Idaho students in 2019. His trial has garnered significant attention, especially regarding the potential application of the death penalty.

Hearing Details:
The defense argued against the death penalty, highlighting Idaho’s struggle to obtain lethal injection drugs and questioning the humanity of death row without a clear execution method.
Blaine Alexander (23:45): “When somebody sits on death row and there's no real means of executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person.”

Prosecution’s Stance:
The prosecution contended that lethal injection remains a viable option and that its availability should not influence the decision on the death penalty.
Olivia Pronczynski (24:34): “Even if you assume that Idaho cannot do lethal injection, that's not to say that decades from now there is not.”

Next Steps:
The judge will issue a ruling on the applicability of the death penalty at a later date, keeping the session closely watched by the public.

---

6. Keith Morrison on Scott Peterson's Case

Reflection on a High-Profile Case:
In commemoration of the 20th anniversary of Scott Peterson’s conviction for the murder of his wife, Laci Peterson, and their unborn child, host Keith Morrison provides a retrospective analysis of the case that captivated the nation.

Key Insights:

• Early Indicators:
  Keith Morrison (25:38): “Scott Peterson walked out of his house. He was very calm, and I don't know what it meant, if anything. It's just that this first impression was quite remarkable.”

• Amber Frey's Testimony: Amber Frey’s testimony about her romantic relationship with Scott Peterson significantly influenced the trial’s outcome.

• Innocence Project Involvement:
  Despite his conviction, Scott Peterson has not been released, and the Innocence Project continues to seek new evidence, focusing on DNA testing of duct tape found on Laci’s body.

Family’s Perspective:
Laci’s mother, Sharon Rocha, expressed the enduring pain and fatigue stemming from two decades of legal battles and public scrutiny.
Susan Liebowett (29:37): “I feel bad for Sharon. I mean, I think it's so hard on her. And she just says she's just so tired, so tired of all this.”

---

7. Conclusion

This episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly offers a comprehensive look into significant criminal cases, highlighting the complexities of the justice system and the profound impact on victims' families and communities. From the closure of the Delphi and Minnesota cases to ongoing legal battles in Texas and Idaho, the podcast underscores the relentless pursuit of truth and justice in true crime narratives.

Notable Quotes:

• Marianne O'Donnell (05:20): “This was another one of those jaw dropping moments.”
• Olivia Pronczynski (24:27): “Even if you assume that Idaho cannot do lethal injection, that's not to say that decades from now there is not.”

For those interested in in-depth true crime stories, this episode serves as a poignant reminder of the enduring quest for justice and the human stories behind each case.

---

Additional Resources:

• For more information on domestic violence, call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) or visit www.thehotline.org.
• To explore the cases discussed, visit Dateline True Crime Weekly.

Transcript

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[Andrea Canning]

The Radio City Rockettes have started their Christmas show. As of today. You're listening in to Dateline's morning meeting in 30 Rockefeller Center. I'm here.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

You missed all the Christmas tree chocolate.

[Andrea Canning]

Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

The texts start revealing this really kind of devious plot. They try to put that in his margaritas trial. And I do believe the defense will rest today.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

So she is charged with the mom's murder?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

No.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's November 14th and here's what's on our docket. A 26 year old mother of two was missing for months before her body was found in a drainage pipe in southern Minnesota. We've got the latest on her alleged killer's trial.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

The defense was able to get a change of venue, claiming that a lot of people in the community participated in the search for her.

[Andrea Canning]

In DATELINE Roundup, dramatic developments in the case of missing Texas mom Suzanne Simmons Simpson. And a judge hears arguments in the Brian Kohberger case. Should the man accused of murdering four University of Idaho students face the death penalty? When somebody sits on death row and there's no real means of executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person. Plus, Keith Morrison will be here on the 20th anniversary of Scott Peterson's conviction. Keith looks back on the blockbuster case.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Evidence at that stage was hard to figure out except that this guy, the husband, he was a strange cat people couldn't figure out.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're headed to a courthouse in Carroll County, Indiana, where this week a jury reached a verdict in the trial of the man accused of murdering two schoolgirls in 2017. It's a case we've talked about several times on the podcast. The brutal double murder of middle schoolers Abby Williams and Libby German, who were found stabbed to death in the woods near a winding creek. The case hung over their home hometown of Delphi, Indiana, for five years until 2022, when investigators arrested a local man by the name of Richard Allen. Allen's trial began almost a month ago, with the prosecution and the defense presenting starkly different accounts of the defendant. Was he a killer without mercy who forced two terrified girls down a hill at gunpoint, or was he an innocent man caught up in a botched investigation? Here to fill us in on what the jury decided and how the community reacted is dateline producer Marianne O'Donnell. Hey, Mar.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Hey, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Give us a sense of what the jury had to go over once they went into that jury room. I'm sure that video from Libby German's phone of a man who looks to be telling the girls to go down the hill had to be a big focus for them.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Well, you know, the prosecution said, look, look at that image taken by Libby German just before her death. And they're saying, who But Richard Allen fits the description of that man that you see there. One other bit of a bombshell that the prosecution delivered was in one of his confessions from prison. Richard Allen said, I killed those girls. I had the intent to rape them, but then I saw a van passing by and I got scared. And sure enough, there's a man who said he was driving a van that day at around that time up his driveway, which runs parallel to the creek.

[Andrea Canning]

So the prosecution is saying, look, you've got to give credibility to this confession because it matches up with this witness.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

That's right. And who but the killer would know that detail?

[Andrea Canning]

What do you think were the most powerful moments the jury took away from the defense as they deliberated?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Well, I have to say, so much was in the video. You see this video of him in prison and he is at times gaunt, at times he is covered in feces. Defense is saying, listen, they broke this guy in prison. Those confessions have got to be thrown out because this man was not in his right state of mind.

[Andrea Canning]

And there was one more thing at the end of the defense's arguments about the headphone jack of Libby's phone. Tell us about that.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

This was another one of those jaw dropping moments. The defense expert said, look, at 5:45pm the state's theory is the girls are already dead at this Point. Why then does the data show that something was plugged into the headphone jack of the phone at 5:45pm and then unplugged some five hours later around 10:30? That's your killer. And by the way, that cannot be Richard Allen. He's home by then.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, my goodness. That is an interesting nugget. Marianne. The jury deliberated for around 19 hours over the course of four days. Take us inside that courthouse while you and everyone else were waiting for the verdict.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

We were not allowed inside the courthouse until they said, there's a verdict. But when we came into that courtroom, there was no sound. It was like everybody was just holding their breath. You couldn't hear people breathing or coughing like you normally did. And then they handed the judge the form, and she read it like she was ripping off a bandaid. Count one, guilty. Count two, guilty. Count three, guilty. Count four, guilty. And after that, first guilty. You heard one gasp and then silence. One gasp, likely, from one of the victim's families. And then you hear this very silent weeping. And it was right behind me, and it was his wife, Kathy Allen, and his mom.

[Andrea Canning]

Can you break down the four counts for us of what he was found guilty of?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

The first and second counts were called felony murder. The first for Abigail Williams II for Libby German. And what that really refers to is it includes kidnapping in the commission of murder. And then the second two counts, three and four are called murder felony, the opposite. And those refer to intentionally causing the deaths of these girls.

[Andrea Canning]

Did he have a reaction? Did he say anything?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

He said nothing. He looked stoic. But then at one point, he turned his head around and he looked at his wife, and he just kept nodding his head as if he was suddenly communicating to her like, it's going to be okay.

[Andrea Canning]

How has the community re to this?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

For the past three weeks, the people lining up outside have been people not from Delphi, but from other parts of the country who've come in just to watch this trial. And many of those people that I interviewed were really rooting for Richard Allen. However, after the verdicts, as I came down the courthouse steps, I all of a sudden hear this whoop and this round of applause, and I see the street filled with people. The people of Delphi had heard about the verdict, and they came out to show their support for the families of the victims.

[Andrea Canning]

What is next for the case? Marianne?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Sentencing. Sentencing is set for December 20th. He's looking at 45 to 65 years for the deaths of each girl.

[Andrea Canning]

Allen's wife, Kathy. She is ready to fight the verdict. She spoke to NBC affiliate WTHR as she left the courtroom.

[Ashley Flowers]

And then Richard Allen's wife came out.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Richard Allen's wife, Kathy Allen came out.

[Andrea Canning]

She was crying and she just said.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

To the media, this isn't over at all. That was her one indication.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Yeah, I mean, Kathy Allen has been a constant presence there in the court. His mother has been there most days. And even though they were weeping when this came down, they had a bit of, I guess, I don't know if it's stoic or determination that this was not going to be the end of things.

[Andrea Canning]

What about the girls families? Do we know where they go from here? Sometimes family members of victims, you know, they channel that pain into helping others.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

You're 100% right. And that is the case in respect to Libby's family. Her grandmother and her sister have become very outspoken advocates for victims rights. And I think Abby's mother, I know that once a year she does this really beautiful charity service for kids who don't have access to things like pencils and paper and games. And people in the community come and join her and they fill shoe boxes with all these great things that kids would love and they go out over the country to kids. And that's in Abby's memory.

[Andrea Canning]

That's so nice. Thanks, Marianne, so much for your reporting and for bringing it to us on the podcast. We appreciate it.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Thanks, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, thousands of people turned up to search for a young mom who disappeared in Southern Minnesota. But it wasn't until a sheriff's deputy heard flies swarming over a pile of logs that she was found. A year and a half later, her ex boyfriend went on trial for murder.

[Keith Morrison]

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[Andrea Canning]

That's H-Y-R-O-W.com code FIT. On March 31, 2023, at 8 in the morning, Madeline Kingsbury and her ex boyfriend Adam Fraville dropped their kids off at daycare in Winona, Minnesota. It was the last time the 5 year old and 2 year old would see their mother. She was 26 years old. Her family reported her missing the next day and a little over two months later a body was found wrapped in a fitted sheet in a culvert. Our affiliate KTTC covered the news.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Law enforcement has confirmed the remains are those of Madeline Kingsbury.

[Andrea Canning]

Adam was arrested for her murder a few hours later and for the past month his trial on four counts of murder, two for killing her and two for killing her while committing domestic abuse, has riveted the state as the prosecution has told the story of a woman trying and failing to escape a relationship that had become violent. Olivia Pronczynski, who reports for KTTC was in the courtroom every day and joins us now from Rochester, Minnesota. Hey Olivia.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Hi, thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

What has been the reaction in Southern Minnesota where all of this happened? There was a search of course. When a young mom goes missing like that, I would imagine a lot of people turned out to try to find Maddie.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yeah, thousands. There were several large searches every week and it seemed like there were 50 to 100 volunteers coming out on top of several law enforcement agencies doing stuff on their end as well.

[Andrea Canning]

And during this time that Maddie is missing, what is Adam doing? Is he helping search for her? Is he doing pleas on the news? Is he going on social media?

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Adam claims that he was told by the BCA not to participate in searches, don't go to any press conferences. But later on I confirmed with the BCA that they never said that to him.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh my goodness. And BCA is that. Are those crime scene investigators?

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Sorry, not everyone is from Minnesota. The BCA is basically the top crime Investigator in Minnesota. It stands for Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, that would seem really odd for law enforcement to tell someone's significant other not to participate in a search. I've never heard that before. Of course, they're in the middle of a breakup at this point.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yes. The relationship had actually been done for, I believe, a couple of weeks, if not months, but they were still living together for the kid's sake.

[Andrea Canning]

So it took from April 1st until June 7th for them to find Maddie's body.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yeah. So where her body was found had actually been searched numerous times by law enforcement agencies. And she was found in a culvert that nobody knew existed, which is a piece of pipe that directs water underneath a road. And so the investigator, he just so happened to go down that road one day, and he said that he got out of his car and walked up and down the road, and then he could smell human decomposition and that he could hear flies. And he looked down, and he said that he had trouble seeing it at first, but poking out from underneath a pile of logs, he could see a gray fitted bedsheet.

[Andrea Canning]

Adam was arrested the day the body was found, charged with murder two days later. Did the police give insight into what evidence they had that led to this quick arrest of Adam?

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Really, it was all of the abuse allegations that came from Madeline's family and friends. I think the biggest one was the abuse allegation where it happened in the September of 2021. They were watching a, I believe, a special on Gabby Petito. And after that, I think Madeline expressed that the murder made her upset and it was sad to see. And then Adam allegedly put his hands around her neck and pushed her into the couch and said that if she didn't wise up, that she would end up like Gabby Petito.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, I don't think I've ever heard anything quite like that. My goodness.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yeah, A scary situation, for sure.

[Andrea Canning]

The statute in Minnesota also comes into play because he was committing domestic abuse. Allegedly. And if there's a pattern of domestic abuse, that can affect your charges.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yes. According to Minnesota law, the prosecution had to prove two other instances of alleged domestic abuse. And in this case, they had multiple. They had the Gabby Pitino incident. There was the incident with one of Madeline's friends where they were on a FaceTime call, and she watched him hit her across the face. There were also instances where friends note noticed bruising around her neck.

[Andrea Canning]

You were in court, Olivia, for the entire trial?

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yes, I was there for the whole month.

[Andrea Canning]

The state was arguing that Maddie's murder was premeditated.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

According to the lead prosecutor on this, there were several things that make it seem like it may have been planned. They had security cameras in their home and they were ripped down just a few days before she went missing. The prosecution argued that no one else knew where that culvert was besides Adam Frabell.

[Andrea Canning]

Adam Ch. Not to testify. Did the defense present any evidence that threw some doubt on the prosecution's case?

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yeah, they were calling it a case of tunnel vision because they said that other suspects were possibly overlooked. They were also trying to, I guess, poke holes in the investigation by saying that essentially Madeleine Kingsbury's body wasn't in that culvert before. And there's no way that Adam Frabell could have done it because after April 1, Adam was under constant supervision. There was a tracker put on his car.

[Andrea Canning]

Adam Fraville was found guilty on all four counts last week.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yes, he was found guilty on all four counts of murder. I think a lot of people are relieved. The family described it as a weight off their shoulder. I mean, I can't even imagine what has gone through the family's mind throughout this past 19 months waiting for justice.

[Andrea Canning]

Sentencing is coming soon for Adam Frabelle.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yes. He'll be sentenced on December 17th. And for first degree murder in Minnesota, it's a mandatory life sentence.

[Andrea Canning]

Olivia, thank you for taking us through this very, very tragic case.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Yeah, thank you for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, call the National Domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-SAFE. That's 1-800-799-7233 or visit www.thehotline.org. coming up, over a month after missing Texas mom Suzanne Simpson disappeared, her husband is charged with her murder. And Brian Kohberger is back in court with his life on the line. Plus, Keith Morrison joins the show as we look back at Scott Peterson's case on the 20th anniversary of his conviction.

[Keith Morrison]

True crime podcasts. There is no shortage to consume. And if you're like me, you've consumed them all. I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday, we cover a case in a way that's not like you've heard before, because I have built a one of a kind team of investigative journalists dedicated to conducting original reporting, making sure that you get the inside scoop. Listen to hundreds of Crime Junkie episodes now. Wherever you get your podcasts, Ryan Reynolds.

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back to the show. Joining me for this week's roundup is DATELINE correspondent Blaine Alexander. Blaine, welcome back to the podcast.

[Blaine Alexander]

So glad to be here.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. All right, so first up, we have several updates in the case we first talked about a few weeks ago out in a wealthy suburb of San Antonio, Texas. Suzanne Simpson, a mom of four, has been missing since the beginning of October. In the days that followed, her husband Brad was charged with assault and a federal weapons charge as well as tampering with evidence. Then last week he was charged again. Here's our NBC affiliate woai.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

This obviously is not the development that Suzanne's loved ones and community wanted to hear. Brad Simpson, now charged with her murder.

[Andrea Canning]

He is here, we are now talking murder. Tell us how this all went down and what Brad is facing.

[Ashley Flowers]

This is huge.

[Blaine Alexander]

Although remember, Suzanne's body has still not been found. So right now his total bond is set at $5 million. And his attorney has previously said that he does intend to plead not guilty to all charges.

[Andrea Canning]

What do we know about why they're charging Brad with murder now?

[Blaine Alexander]

So there's so much that we don't know about this. Andrea. First, the arrest affidavit was originally sealed by the judge judge for 30 days, but it has since been obtained by our affiliate woai. And it does include an alleged timeline of events and new details like cameras showing at least two trash bags and a large ice chest in the back of Brad's truck, along with a quote, a large item wrapped in a blue tarp with a firewood rack placed on top of it. We also know that investigators are now searching an area that's near the property in Bandera, Texas. That's where Brad reportedly went after Suzanne disappeared.

[Andrea Canning]

One of Brad and Suzanne's children also spoke out last week. Their daughter. What did she have to say?

[Blaine Alexander]

We heard from her on Instagram, Chandler Simpson, she's the 20 year old daughter of Brad and Suzanne. And she called Suzanne, quote, a victim of abuse from my father and added, my father took my mother's life in a state of rage and control.

[Andrea Canning]

Wow. Still a lot we don't know about this case. We'll be sure to keep you posted on what happens next. For our next story, Brian Kohberger is back in the headlines. Kohberger is, of course, accused of murdering four University of Idaho students in 2020, 2022. He was back in court for a hearing last week. Blaine, what happened in the hearing?

[Blaine Alexander]

So this really centers around the death penalty and whether the death penalty can be used in this case. Now, of course, as we know, Coburger has pleaded not guilty. The trial has yet to get underway. But at this hearing, the defense argued that the trial should not allow the death penalty as a punishment should he be found guilty in this case.

[Andrea Canning]

What was the defense's argument?

[Blaine Alexander]

Well, basically, they focused on some ongoing issues with the death penalty in the state of Idaho. Idaho has had real trouble obtaining drugs used to perform lethal injection and they've not used the death penalty since 2012, so more than a decade.

[Andrea Canning]

Here's some coverage from our NBC affiliate KTVB of the defense's argument at the hearing. When somebody sits on death row and there's no real means of executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person. How did the prosecution respond to all of this? What was their argument?

[Blaine Alexander]

Well, they pushed back. They said that lethal injection is currently available in Idaho and that its availability should not determine the outcome of whether the death penalty is on the table or not in this case.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Even if you assume that Idaho cannot do lethal injection, that's not to say that decades from now there is not.

[Andrea Canning]

Going to be a method by which.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

The state could put him to death.

[Andrea Canning]

The judge said he would issue a ruling on the death penalty at a later date. But we'll be watching this one and we'll keep you posted. Blaine, thank you so much for coming back on Roundup.

[Blaine Alexander]

You're so welcome, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

20 years ago this week in November 2000, a crowd of people gathered outside the San Mateo County Courthouse in California. They were there to hear the verdict in a case that had captivated the Nation.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

We, the jury, in the above entitled cause, find the defendant, Scott Lee Peterson guilty of the crime of murder of Lacey Denise Peterson guilty of the crime of murder of baby Connor Peterson.

[Andrea Canning]

We asked Keith Morrison, who covered this story from the very beginning along with DATELINE senior producer Susan Liebowett, to come and chat about why this case struck such a nerve back in 2004 and continues to do so today. Hey, Susan and Keith.

[Susan Liebowett]

Hello.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Good to be here.

[Andrea Canning]

Keith, you filed your first report on this case just three weeks after Lacey disappeared. Let's take a quick listen to the opening lines of that episode.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Where was she Christmas Eve of all days? Lacy Peterson, just 27, beautiful, due in a month, was just not the sort of person who'd wander off without telling someone.

[Andrea Canning]

What caught your attention about this case?

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

You know, this was just obvious from the very beginning that something very weird had happened. There was a search for the missing woman.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Of course, by 2am we had flyers made Christmas morning.

[Andrea Canning]

Christmas morning, yeah.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Posters and flyers blanketed Modesto. Scores of policemen gave up Christmas to hunt for clues. You know, evidence at that stage was hard to figure out, except that this guy, the husband, he was a strange cat. People couldn't figure out Scott's frantic story. Simple yet utterly baffling, was this. At 9:30 in the morning on Christmas Eve, he had decided to drive 90 miles to San Francisco Bay, he says, to do some sturgeon fishing. One of my early memories was standing outside of the Peterson house, hoping that we could get an interview with him. And indeed, Scott Peterson walked out of his house. He was very calm, and I don't know what it meant, if anything. It's just that this first impression was quite remarkable.

[Andrea Canning]

You felt like if your wife and your unborn child are missing, you would be, you know, a wreck.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Exactly. And I think that's one of the things that made this such a big story, that the public was looking at it and said, look at this guy. Look at the way he behaves. And yet, you know, the police didn't have the evidence to arrest him. Do you consider him a suspect?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

We would love to eliminate Scott from this investigation. We haven't been able to do that.

[Andrea Canning]

About a month after Lacey's disappearance, a woman by the name of Amber Fry comes forward and reveals in a press conference that she was romantically involved with Scott Peterson.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Scott told me he was not married.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

We did have a romantic relationship.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Amber Fry was a huge thing. And the thing that sticks out in my memory about that particularly, is that when there was a vigilance for Lacy Everybody was, you know, holding candles and singing songs, and he was at the back of the crowd, and he was on the phone. And later on, it was discovered that he was on the phone with Amber Fry.

[Susan Liebowett]

But Scott's team will point out he did participate somewhat in the vigil. We have footage from our affiliate of him in the middle of the vigil with a tear running down his face, but he never got on the stage with the other people who were looking for her.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Tonight, the news Lacy Peterson's family had been dreading ever since she disappeared last Christmas Eve.

[Andrea Canning]

And then in April 2003, two bodies washed ashore a few miles from the marina, where Scott said he went fishing the day Laci disappeared.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

The body being found, the way it was, everything in this story, let's put it that way, conspired to make him seem pretty darn guilty.

[Andrea Canning]

When Scott was arrested, there is that image of him with the dyed hair. You know, he was caught with certain things.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

When police arrested Peterson, he was carrying $10,000, his brother's ID and a passport application. If he was innocent, prosecutors ask, why was he evidently preparing to flee?

[Andrea Canning]

From the very beginning, Scott has maintained his innocence. He pleaded not guilty to two counts of capital murder for the death of both Lacey and Connor. And his murder trial began in June of 2004. Amber testified at trial.

[Susan Liebowett]

I think that turned the tide. You know, the trial wasn't going well for the prosecution until Amber got there.

[Andrea Canning]

As we said, Scott was found guilty and sentenced to death. Years passed, and we know that he has found a new ally in the Los Angeles Innocence Project. So what can you tell us is the latest with that?

[Susan Liebowett]

The Innocence Project has asked to test many things. The judge has said no to everything except a piece of duct tape that was found on Lacey when they recovered her body. Right now, they're looking for any DNA they can find on it.

[Andrea Canning]

Susan, you sent a text to Sharon Rocha, Lacy Peterson's mother, about the 20th anniversary of Scott Peterson's conviction, and she replied to you. The only thing I'd want to say is, remember Lacey.

[Susan Liebowett]

I feel bad for Sharon. I mean, I think it's so hard on her. And she just says she's just so tired, so tired of all this.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

I think there's probably no greater curse to a family than being at the middle of a story like this one. It's just constant pain for the rest of your life if you happen to be the family of that person.

[Andrea Canning]

Well, we will see what transpires in the months ahead. Keith and Susan, thank you so much. For your insight into this, this case that has captured the world's attention.

[Susan Liebowett]

You're welcome.

[Progressive Insurance Representative]

Thanks, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. You can find out more about the cases covered on our show at our website, datelinetruecrimeweekly.com and coming up this Friday on Dateline, a former ballerina shoots and kills her husband, leaving a jury to decide if it was self defense. This reads like a Lifetime movie and you have allegations of poison tea, stalking, murder. It goes on and on.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

Every time I thought this is the craziest thing I've ever heard, then I would hear something else.

[Andrea Canning]

Watch my new one hour mystery, Deadly Dance, airing at a special time this Friday at 10, 9 Central on NBC. Or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. And be sure to listen to Keith's newest DATELINE original podcast, the man in the Black Mask. It's a haunting story about a man who goes missing near the set of a horror film and a killer arrested on Halloween.

[Olivia Pronczynski]

I have never in my life felt fear like that.

[Andrea Canning]

You can binge all six episodes now wherever you get your podcasts. To get ad free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to DATELINE Premium. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Frannie Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuroloff. Production and fact checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer, Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production, Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Kuhl is senior executive producer of Dateline. See you soon.

[Keith Morrison]

True crime podcasts. There is no shortage to consume, and if you're like me, you've consumed them all. I'm Ashley Flowers, creator and host of the number one true crime podcast, Crime Junkie. Every Monday, we cover a case in a way that's not like you've heard before because I have built a one of a kind team of investigative journalists dedicated to conducting original reporting, making sure that you get the insight scoop. Listen to hundreds of Crime Junkie episodes now. Wherever you get your podcasts.