The prosecution case against D4vd. Massachusetts mom on trial for murder. Plus, a criminal profiler.

Summary

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Dateline NBC: True Crime Weekly – July 23, 2026

Episode Theme:
This episode dissects the prosecution’s case against D4vd, a TikTok-famous musician charged with the murder of a 14-year-old girl, then pivots to the high-profile trial of Massachusetts mom Lindsay Clancy, accused of killing her children amid severe mental health struggles. The roundup covers updates in other headline cases—the mysterious death of Nolan Wells and the Larry Miliette trial—before closing with a rare interview detailing how FBI profilers approach interviewing serial killers.

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1. The Prosecution Case Against d4vd (David Anthony Burke)

Segment Start: [02:23]

Overview:

• David Anthony Burke ("d4vd"), a 21-year-old singer who rose to fame on TikTok, faces charges of first-degree murder, continuous sexual abuse of a minor, and mutilation of human remains.
• The victim: Celeste Reavis Hernandez, 14, whose body was found in the trunk of David’s Tesla.

Key Discussion Points & Insights:

• Background & Timeline:
  • David’s rapid career ascent (2022 TikTok breakthrough, multimillion-dollar record deal, world tour in 2025).
  • Celeste’s disappearance reported twice by parents in 2024. ([04:45])
• Alleged Relationship:
  • Prosecutors charge David began a sexual relationship with Celeste when she was 13.
  • Parents suspected but could not control Celeste; police involved twice.
  • Second disappearance coincided with her going to a movie with David; never returned.
• Prosecution’s Motive Theory:
  • District Attorney alleges David killed Celeste to protect his lucrative career, fearing exposure of their relationship.

    “David wanted Celeste dead because she Was a threat to his lucrative musical career.” – DA Nathan Hoffman, via Madeline Morrison ([05:22])

  • Between 2023–2025, David’s gross earnings: $10–11 million. ([10:02])
• Courtroom Developments:
  • Media gains first look at prosecutor’s evidence during preliminary hearing.
  • First Witness: Senior Sheriff Juan Gonzalez—bodycam footage reveals David was told Celeste was 13, contradicting his claim she was 18.

    “Do you think she looks 13? David said, no, no, no, no.” – Madeline Morrison ([06:43])

  • Second Witness: LAPD detective shares graphic evidence—bodybag photos, Amazon order histories (body bags, chainsaws), items found at David’s home.

    “The detective showed photos...David ordered body bags from Amazon. He also ordered multiple chainsaws...” – Madeline Morrison ([07:40])

  • Tattoo Evidence: Both David and Celeste had “Shh” tattoos on their fingers and “Celeste” tattooed on David’s left ring finger. ([08:36])
• Defense Cross-Examination:
  • Raises doubts about connection between chainsaws and the crime; chainsaws tested negative for blood. ([09:03])
  • Financial manager admits most dealings were with David’s mother, not David directly, undercutting knowledge of financial motive. ([10:09])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments:

• “...at the very least it shows that David was told her age. It’s gonna be very hard for him to deny knowing she was a minor...” – Madeline Morrison ([07:17])

• “It was very poignant...David has a Shh tattoo on his finger...Celeste had the exact same tattoo...” – Madeline Morrison ([08:38])

• “This was really gruesome and graphic testimony.” – Madeline Morrison ([07:40])

• Celeste's family attorney:

  “This is the first time that they've heard this evidence in detail, and they're horrifying.” – Ben Crump ([10:31])

Upcoming Evidence:

• Text messages between Celeste and David, with a significant argument the night before her death anticipated in future testimony. ([10:56])

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2. The Lindsay Clancy Case – A Massachusetts Mother on Trial

Segment Start: [13:01]

Overview:

• Lindsay Clancy, a labor and delivery nurse, is on trial for killing her three children during a mental health crisis in January 2023 and then attempting suicide.

Key Discussion Points & Insights:

• Events Leading Up to the Crime:
  • Lindsay’s struggle with severe postpartum depression and anxiety, multiple prescriptions, recent psychiatric hospitalization.
  • On the day of the incident: Sent husband Patrick out (to pick up dinner and medication), left alone with children, killed them, then attempted suicide by jumping from a window. ([14:42])
• Charges and Strategies:
  • Prosecutors allege premeditation: use of errands to ensure privacy for the act.

    “Prosecutors say Lindsay knowingly gave herself the time and privacy to commit the murders.” – Mary Marcos ([15:41])

  • Defense: Lindsay was in a psychotic state because of postpartum depression and medications; pursuing an insanity defense.

    “The depression kept getting worse.” – Mary Marcos ([16:06])

• Legal Standards:
  • Massachusetts’ version of insanity defense: “lack of criminal responsibility.”
  • Defense must prove Lindsay could not control her actions or comprehend wrongfulness due to her mental illness. ([17:01])
• Impact on Family & Community:
  • Husband Patrick publicly forgave Lindsay and called her “generously loving and caring.”

    “I want to ask all of you...to forgive Lindsay as I have.” – Patrick Clancy ([17:37])

  • Community support: thousands donated, nurses wrote letters backing Lindsay.
• Jury Selection:
  • Judge impaneling 18 jurors (12 + 6 alternates) due to the case’s disturbing nature. ([18:15])
  • Lindsay to appear in court in a wheelchair (paralyzed from the incident).
  • Husband Patrick expected to testify.

Notable Quotes:

• “She killed her children in the grip of psychosis fueled by postpartum depression and a cocktail of drugs.” – Andrea Canning ([13:01])

• “The real Lindsay was generously loving and caring towards everyone, me, our kids.” – Patrick Clancy ([17:37])

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3. Dateline Roundup: Headline Case Updates

Segment Start: [21:32]

3.1 The Case of Nolan Wells

Overview:

• 18-year-old Black college student, died under mysterious circumstances after a July 4th boat party.

Key Points:

• Funeral and Community Response:

  • Hundreds attended Nolan’s funeral. Parents gave emotional eulogies; civil rights attorney Ben Crump present.

    “I nicknamed you Mr. Cool Hands because it seemed like you was catching a touchdown every game.” – Nolan’s father, Elmore Wansley ([22:50]) “I ask that each of you keep Nolan’s memory alive and never stop saying his name.” – Nolan’s mother, Christine ([23:22])

  • Reverend Al Sharpton called for a thorough investigation and accountability among friends with crucial information. ([23:39])

• Investigative Developments:

  • Independent autopsy: cause and manner of death “undetermined, pending investigation,” with decomposition noted as a major hurdle.
  • Red discoloration found on back of Nolan’s head; unclear cause. ([25:17])
  • Ongoing investigation; no charges filed yet. ([26:28])

3.2 Larry Miliette Weapons Charge

Overview:

• Convicted of murdering his wife, Maya.
• Now faces a separate weapons charge for possession of an unregistered assault weapon.

Key Points:

• Entered a guilty plea for the weapons charge; maximum sentence (3 years) already covered by time served awaiting trial. ([27:36])
• Sentencing (on both charges): September 29; faces 25 years to life for murder. ([28:03])
• Judge allowed cameras in the courtroom; defense argued the weapons case was unrelated to the murder.

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4. Criminal Profiler Interview: Inside FBI Interviews with Serial Killers

Segment Start: [28:52]

Guest: Jim Clemente, Retired FBI Profiler

• Worked high-profile serial cases (e.g., D.C. snipers), inspiration for TV’s Criminal Minds.

Key Insights:

• Profiling Basics:
  • “Criminal investigative analysis” uses victimology, crime scenes, and behavioral patterns to reverse engineer an offender’s profile.

    “We look at victimology. We look at the crime location...When we analyze all of that...FBI agents...come up with a profile by reverse engineering that behavior...” – Jim Clemente ([30:08])

• How Profiles Are Built (Using Gilgo Beach Case as Example):
  • Offender’s familiarity with dump site, seasonal crime patterns, “meticulous” behavior predicted an architect with a family (which proved accurate).
• Interviewing Serial Killers:
  • Extensive case file review, establishing rapport, and carefully navigating the offender’s psyche are critical.

    “You have to sort of build rapport with the person and actually build up their ego and make them feel relaxed and able to open up to you about very horrible and intimate details.” ([33:00])

  • Protocol involves hundreds of detailed questions spanning development, sexuality, fantasy, and criminal behavior.
• Emotional Toll & Broader Purpose:
  • Profilers maintain “clinical detachment,” but the work brings hypervigilance and cynicism. The motivation is preventing future crimes.

    “When you catch a serial offender, you’re preventing future crimes. You’re saving someone from that same fate.” ([34:51])

  • FBI interviews of convicted killers like Rex Heuermann are typically kept confidential; primary purpose is to improve institutional knowledge and investigative capability.

    “Generally it’s used for the intended purpose, which is to help...profilers...solve these cases.” ([35:27])

Notable Quotes:

• “Doctors and nurses see the worst things that health problems can cause for humans, and FBI profilers see the worst things that humans do to one another.” – Jim Clemente ([34:10])

• “You have to develop this clinical detachment...if you get too emotionally involved, you...can’t see the forest for the trees, and you are unable to function.” ([34:51])

---

5. Memorable Moments & Impact

• The tattoo connection between David and Celeste stands out as a chilling, poignant court detail. ([08:36])
• The emotional gravity of the Nolan Wells case—highlighted by family and civil rights voices—underscores ongoing social questions about race, justice, and transparency in investigation.
• The Lindsay Clancy case spotlights mental health and criminal responsibility, with powerful statements about forgiveness and the complexity of family tragedy.

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This episode delivers in-depth developments on wrenching and complex criminal cases, blending careful reporting and candid analysis with human insight from courtrooms, communities, and the investigative field.

---

Transcript

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[Andrea Canning]

Good morning, everyone. It's the start of another workday for the DATELINE team.

[Mike Nardi]

This past weekend, the 911 call was leaked.

[Andrea Canning]

Our producers are swapping tips and story ideas.

[Jim Clemente]

It's still a bit of a mystery.

[Andrea Canning]

Did she shoot herself or did he shoot her?

[Madeline Morrison]

You want to send it to me? Then we'll look into it.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to DATELINE, True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's July 23rd, and here's what's on our docket. Jury selection is underway in a Boston suburb at the trial of a labor and delivery nurse accused of murdering her children. Her husband says it's not her fault.

[Mary Marcos]

He made an appeal to the public. He wrote, I want to ask all of you to forgive Lindsay as I

[Andrea Canning]

have in DATELINE Roundup. Larry Miliette, the San Diego man who consulted with spellcasters before murdering his wife, is back in court. And the family of Nolan Wells, the black teenager who died in mysterious circumstances, continue their search for answers. I ask that each of you keep Nolan's memory alive and never stop saying his name. Plus, what should FBI behavioral analysts expect when they go to interview? Rex Heuerman, a retired criminal profiler, tells us what it's like to interview a serial killer.

[Jim Clemente]

You have to sort of build rapport with the, with the person and make them open up to you about very horrible and intimate details.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're in California for the latest in a case that is making headlines in true crime and pop culture. Tuesday morning, dozens of people lined up outside a downtown Los Angeles courthouse hoping to get a seat at the preliminary hearing for David, a musician who became famous on TikTok with hits like Romantic Homicide. He stands accused of first degree murder in September, Louisiana police responded to a call that human remains were found in the trunk of the singer's Tesla after it was taken to a tow yard. This morning, the LA County Medical examiner

[Mike Nardi]

identified 14 year old Celeste Reavis as

[Andrea Canning]

the person who was found dead at

[Mike Nardi]

a Hollywood tow yard in early September.

[Andrea Canning]

Seven months later, David was arrested and charged with Celeste's murder. He has pleaded not guilty. Now the prosecutor is trying to convince a judge there is enough evidence to take the singer to trial, giving us our first look inside the investigator's case against him. NBC News associate producer Madeline Morrison is joining us from inside the courthouse to tell us what she has learned so far. Madeline, thank you for being here.

[Madeline Morrison]

Thanks for having me, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Sure. And we should just warn our viewers some of what we'll be discussing in this segment is fairly graphic. First, Madeline, remind us about David, full name, David Anthony Burke. Who is he?

[Madeline Morrison]

So he's a serious songwriter. He's 21 years old and he kind of rose to fame in 2022 very quickly on TikTok and he soon got a multi million dollar recording contract. He was on a world tour in 2025 for his debut album when Celeste's body was discovered in his Tesla.

[Andrea Canning]

The medical examiner identified the remains as belonging, of course to 14 year old Celeste Rivas Hernandez. What do we know about her relationship with David?

[Madeline Morrison]

She's from Lake Elsinore, which is a town in Riverside county outside of Los Angeles. And prosecutors allege that David started a sexual relationship with Celeste when she was just 13 years old and he was 18. And I should say that David hasn't just been charged with her murder. Prosecutors have also charged him with continuous sexual abuse of a minor and mutilation of human remains. He's pleaded not guilty to all of those charges.

[Andrea Canning]

Where do Celeste's parents fit into all of this? Did they know about this alleged relationship she was having with David?

[Madeline Morrison]

They knew that they were hanging out. They reported Celeste missing at least twice in 2024. Both times police went out to talk to David and they suspected that she was with him. The first time that she left, Celeste came back after a few days. The second time her parents said that she had gone out to a movie with David and never came back. But they just assumed that she was a runaway teen and they couldn't control her. That was in April 2024. The prosecutors Celeste was murdered just a year later.

[Andrea Canning]

Have prosecutors talked about a possible motive?

[Madeline Morrison]

Well, at the press conference after David was arrested, Los Angeles DA Nathan Hoffman said that David wanted Celeste dead because she Was a threat to his lucrative musical career. He said the relationship was under investigation, and Celeste was a witness. He didn't get into details on the investigation, Such as when and how it started. That's something we hope that we kind of learn this week during the preliminary hearing.

[Andrea Canning]

So, Madeline, most of the evidence in this case has been sealed until this week. What has it been like in the courtroom?

[Madeline Morrison]

It's been interesting. And I gotta say, David, he seems polite. He seems that, you know, he's almost chipper when he talks to the judge. He at times, he, you know, he rests his chin on his fist when he looks and watches the witness onto stand.

[Andrea Canning]

Typically, in a preliminary hearing like this, prosecutors lay out evidence. They call witnesses, they show exhibits. It's kind of like a mini trial. Who was their first witness?

[Madeline Morrison]

First witness was senior deputy sheriff Juan Gonzalez, and he went to go talk to David in February of 2024, and that was the first missing persons report that the parents had made for Celeste. We actually got to see a body cam footage from Juan Gonzalez, and that was kind of the first time we got to hear from David how he and Celeste met.

[Andrea Canning]

What did he have to say?

[Madeline Morrison]

Well, they met on discord, which is like an online chat room. He said that they met in 2020, 2021. The deputy that Celeste was missing, and David told the deputy that he hadn't seen her in months, and they had only met once in person. David said that Celeste told him that she was 18. The deputy sheriff told him she was just 13 years old. And when the deputy asked him, do you think she looks 13? David said, no, no, no, no. It was kind of a moment.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so what do you think the prosecution was trying to prove with that interaction?

[Madeline Morrison]

I mean, at the very least, it shows that David was told her age. It's gonna be very hard for him to deny knowing that she was a minor at the time.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so that first witness was from the Los Angeles sheriff's department. The second witness was an LAPD detective who was called to the scene after Celeste's body was found, and also who later ended up arresting David. What did he have to say?

[Madeline Morrison]

This was the rough part of the day. This was really gruesome and graphic testimony. The detective showed photos of Celeste's remains, Including the body bags she was found in. And he also presented digital evidence that David ordered body bags from Amazon. He also ordered multiple chainsaws, and those chainsaws were found in his home. And basically, the prosecutor was trying to connect David to the dumping of Celeste's body. And that he planned it.

[Andrea Canning]

Did the detective go in depth at all about the moment he arrested David?

[Madeline Morrison]

Yes. Yeah. It was very poignant because he was taking his mugshot. And there's a moment where they take photos of all the arrestees tattoos. And they were taking pictures of his tattoos that he has tattoos on his fingers. And he noticed that David has a. Shh. Tattoo on his finger.

[Andrea Canning]

Like, be quiet.

[Mary Marcos]

Shh.

[Madeline Morrison]

Yes.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Madeline Morrison]

And the detective noticed that because Celeste had the exact same tattoo on her finger. And then he looked on David's left ring finger, and he had Celeste written on his left ring finger.

[Andrea Canning]

So David's defense attorney was allowed to cross examine witnesses. How did the attorney handle the detective?

[Madeline Morrison]

On cross examination, the defense raised doubt about whether the chainsaws found in David's home could have been connected to the crime at all. And the detective admitted that they didn't test positive for blood. And that kind of pokes holes in the prosecution story.

[Andrea Canning]

We talked a little bit about motive earlier on in the segment. The prosecution did end up going into their theory in this preliminary hearing, right?

[Madeline Morrison]

Yeah. And they actually called Benjamin Greger, who was David's kind of financial manager. And it's important because the prosecution is trying to prove that David killed Celeste because she was risking his financial gain because she would reveal their relationship. He stood to lose a lot of money. Gregor was able to put a number on how much potential was at stake. According To Gregor, between 2023 and 2025, David earned 10 to $11 million in gross earnings alone.

[Andrea Canning]

That's a lot of money.

[Madeline Morrison]

Oh, yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

On cross examination, how did you, David's attorney, undercut the prosecution's theory?

[Madeline Morrison]

Well, he admitted he almost always communicated with David's mom about his finances. Almost never spoke to David himself, so he couldn't have really known how much was at stake.

[Andrea Canning]

So a lot happened on day one of the hearing. Celeste family's lawyers spoke outside of court. And Madeline, you recorded some of his comments. Let's take a listen.

[Jim Clemente]

Well, this is the first time that

[Ben Crump]

they've heard this evidence in detail, and they're horrifying.

[Andrea Canning]

It was absolutely.

[Madeline Morrison]

It was deplorable.

[Andrea Canning]

This has to be so upsetting and difficult for Celeste's family.

[Madeline Morrison]

Yeah, it's been rough. I can't believe they sat through all that.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. What else do you expect to learn as this preliminary hearing continues? And how long do we think it'll go on for?

[Madeline Morrison]

I expect it to last the rest of the week. We'll definitely get some text messages between Celeste and David. They allegedly had a big argument the night before she died.

[Andrea Canning]

Well, we will come back to you, Madeline, as this progresses. Thank you for bringing us your reporting from the courthouse in downtown la.

[Madeline Morrison]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up, a labor and delivery nurse on trial for murdering her children. Her husband is standing by her.

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[Andrea Canning]

The case we're about to discuss is disturbing, and it might be tough to listen to. We'll be talking about attempted suicide and the deaths of three small children. But we'll also be talking about a question that has transfigured fix the community of Duxbury, Massachusetts, and beyond. Could more have been done to help a mother struggling with her mental health before she became a killer? On the evening of January 24, 2023, Lindsay Clancy did the unthinkable. She strangled her children in the basement of their home and then threw herself out of a second story window. She is now on trial for their murders. The Plymouth county district attorney says he will prove that Lindsay pledged, planned the whole thing and may have even staged that suicide attempt. Lindsay's defense attorney doesn't deny Lindsay killed her children, but says she did it in the grip of psychosis fueled by postpartum depression and a cocktail of drugs she had been prescribed to manage it. Here to bring us up to speed is NBC 10 Boston's Mary Marcos, who has been following the case closely. Mary, thank you for being here.

[Mary Marcos]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Why don't you start by just telling us about this family, the Clancy's.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Mary Marcos]

So Lindsay and Patrick, they got married in December 2016. They settled down in Duxbury. It's a quiet, affluent town on the south shore here in Massachusetts. Patrick worked in telecommunications. Lindsay worked as a labor delivery nurse at Mass General Hospital. And a year after they got married, they had their first child, Cora, then their second, Dawson, in 2019, and their third child, Call. And they had three years later in 2022.

[Andrea Canning]

Mary. The first sign that something was wrong was a 911 call from the family's home. Walk us through what happened next.

[Mary Marcos]

According to court documents, Patrick Clancy told police he just got home from running errands, and he found his wife Lindsay on the ground outside their house. It looked like she had slit her wrists and her neck and jumped from a second story window. And so while the paramedics were looking at her injuries, Patrick ran in the house to check on the kids. Police found Patrick in the basement with the children, who were unresponsive. And at that point, he cried, she killed the kids.

[Andrea Canning]

So awful. Two of the children were pronounced dead at the hospital. The third and youngest child died a few days later. What about Lindsay?

[Mary Marcos]

Well, she was hospitalized with traumatic spinal cord injuries. She is now paralyzed from the waist down.

[Andrea Canning]

Days later, Lindsey was charged with multiple counts of murder. Lindsay listened from her hospital bed as the prosecutor outlined the case against her and Mary. She alleged that Lindsay had planned the killings. What evidence did the prosecutor say she had to go for first degree murder charges?

[Mary Marcos]

She said that on the day of the murders, Lindsay asked her husband to go pick up takeout from a restaurant a couple towns over, and that Lindsey had asked her husband to pick up medication for one of their kids. So by sending her husband out to run errands, prosecutors say Lindsey knowingly gave herself the time and privacy to commit the murders.

[Andrea Canning]

Lindsay's defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, spoke at the arraignment and painted a very different picture of Lindsey and what happened.

[Mary Marcos]

Yeah, he. He started by saying that after Lindsey's third child, she got depressed, had a lot of anxiety. He said that Lindsey started taking a laundry list of medications prescribed by her providers. Her depression, though, just kept getting worse.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense attorney revealed that Lindsey had actually checked herself into a psychiatric hospital just a few weeks before the murders. What happened with that? Why was she released?

[Mary Marcos]

Yeah, she told her husband she was having suicidal thoughts. So she admitted herself to McLan. That's one of the nation's top ranked psychiatric hospitals. She was released after five days. She told doctors at the time that her thoughts were improving. But less than two weeks after she was discharged, she told her therapist that she was having thoughts about harming her kids.

[Andrea Canning]

Mary, her legal team is arguing an insanity defense that even though Lindsay killed her kids, she should not be found guilty for that reason. Reason of insanity, what does that mean in the state of Massachusetts?

[Mary Marcos]

So in Massachusetts, it's actually called a lack of criminal responsibility. And I talked to some legal experts about what both the prosecution and defense will have to prove. For the prosecution, they'll have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Lindsay could control her actions and that she understood in that moment that what she was doing was wrong. And the defense will have to prove that her postpartum depression was so severe that she couldn't stop herself. And if the defense is successful, successful, Lindsay could end up in a psychiatric hospital for years or even decades.

[Andrea Canning]

What is Lindsay's husband, Patrick, said about all of this? He's actually been talking about it.

[Madeline Morrison]

Yeah.

[Mary Marcos]

He's been backing her up really from the beginning. A few days after the murders, he made an appeal to the public on a fundraising page. He wrote, quote, I want to ask all of you that you find it deep within yourselves to forgive Lindsay as I have. And another quote, the real Lindsay was generously loving and caring towards everyone, me, our kids.

[Andrea Canning]

And his words seem to have quite an impact. Thousands of people donated money to the fundraiser, and her fellow nurses have written letters to Lindsay's lawyer in support of her. Mary, this case really seems to have hit a nerve. And on Monday, jury selection began. And you say it was. It was a little unusual, right?

[Mary Marcos]

The judge in this case, Judge William Sullivan, he's looking to impanel 18 jurors. That includes six alternates in case the disturbing nature of this case just gets too intense for some jurors. And that's more jurors than the Karen Reed case. For people who have been following the latest cases out of the state of Massachusetts.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, yes, we have on Dateline, True Crime Weekly, that is for sure. Lindsay will appear in court in a wheelchair. I would imagine that she would want to testify in a case like this. Do you know if she's planning to?

[Mary Marcos]

It's hard to say at this point whether or not she will testify, but we are expecting her husband Patrick to testify, and that will be some of the hardest testimony. I think we'll hear over the course of the trial.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, really hard. It's such a complex case and story. Mary we will be following your reporting as this trial gets going. Thank you so much for being here.

[Mary Marcos]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, it's time for DATELINE Roundup. Larry Miliette is back in court. And an update in the case of Nolan Wells, the Mississippi teenager whose family is seeking answers about his mysterious death. Plus, inside the minds of serial killers. We'll talk to a retired FBI profiler.

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is DATELINE producer Mike Nardi. Thanks for being here, Mike.

[Mike Nardi]

Thanks for having me, Mike.

[Andrea Canning]

First, we are heading to Mississippi for an update in the case of 18 year old Nolan Wells, the college student who died under mysterious circumstances after going to a boat party on July 4th. It was on Horn island and he was with some friends. His parents raised questions from the moment he did not come home, including why his friends left him behind on the island and why one of them had Nolan's phone. And also whether his race, Nolan was black and his friends are white, had anything to do with his death. There have been some big developments this week. Mike, let's start with Nolan's funeral, which happened on Monday. Tell us about that.

[Mike Nardi]

It was incredibly moving. It took place just after midday at Center Point Church in Ocean Springs, Mississippi, where they lived. Hundreds of people showed up. They lined up outside to get in. Nolan's parents had asked guests to dress in black and blue because those were the colors of Nolan's high school football team. Both of Nolan's parents gave emotional eulogies. Nolan's dad, Elmore Wansley, talked directly to Nolan, saying how proud he was of him for his gentle and nurturing nature. And he broke down when he talked about the nickname he had for Nolan.

[Andrea Canning]

I nicknamed you Mr.

[Mike Nardi]

Cool Hands because it seemed like you was catching a touchdown every game.

[Andrea Canning]

You want to be the best Mr. Cool Hands. So sweet. This is very sad, Mike. Elmore thanked the community for showing up to remember Nolan. Nolan's mother, Christine, talked to the mourners, too. I ask that each of you keep Nolan's memory alive. Hold him close in your heart,

[Madeline Morrison]

share

[Andrea Canning]

his stories, and never stop saying his name. Mike, as we said, the family still has so many questions about his death. Civil rights activist Reverend Al Sharpton was at the funeral and he talked about all these questions that people have.

[Mike Nardi]

He did. He did. He called for a thorough investigation and asked why Nolan's friend kept his phone and whether anything was erased before the parents got it back.

[Ben Crump]

I hear this morning Nolan's blood crying from the ground.

[Andrea Canning]

Am I my brother's keeper or am

[Ben Crump]

I the keeper of some secret,

[Mike Nardi]

some

[Narrator/Advertiser]

information that you could give and won't stand up, but the blood's gonna haunt you.

[Andrea Canning]

Then the family's attorney, Ben Crump, who was also there, led mourners in a chant. Justice for Nolan Wells.

[Jim Clemente]

Justice for Nolan Wells.

[Andrea Canning]

We should say that there is, of course, an ongoing investigation into Nolen's death by the Jackson County Sheriff's Office. The sheriff says they are, quote, working diligently to determine exactly what occurred. Wednesday there was a new development in the case. What did we learn? Mike?

[Mike Nardi]

On Wednesday morning, Nolan's parents and Ben Crump held a press conference to announce preliminary findings from the family's independent autopsy. That autopsy was performed by Dr. Roger Mitchell, former chief medical examiner for Washington, D.C. and a board certified forensic pathologist. Ben Crump started by reading the pathologist's big picture.

[Andrea Canning]

Conclusion, cause of death, undetermined, pending investigation. The manner of death, undetermined, pending investigation.

[Mike Nardi]

In his report, Dr. Mitchell noted various obstacles he faced doing the autopsy, including the decomposition of Nolan's body by the time he got it, and the fact the Jackson county coroner already did an autopsy. Dr. Mitchell ruled out fractures and deep tissue injuries. But he did observe what he called red discoloration on the back of Nolan's head. He couldn't say what the cause of that mark was or how it got there.

[Andrea Canning]

Ben Crump made it clear that the pathologist investigation is ongoing.

[Mike Nardi]

According to his report, the pathologist still has questions. For example, he wants to know the position of Nolan's body when it was found. How did he get in the water? Was he conscious or unconscious? Remember, Nolan was a strong swimmer, from what we know.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. So many factors go into determining conclusions on autopsy reports. We still don't know when the autopsy conducted by the Jackson county coroner will be released. But after the presser, the Mississippi State medical examiner sent a statement to NBC News saying, quote, investigators remain committed to following the facts wherever they lead. And they urged the public to remain patient and allow the investigative process to take its course.

[Mike Nardi]

Mike, we should also say that nobody has been charged in this case.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, we'll keep an eye on that one for sure. Next to the San Diego county courthouse and Larry Miliette. He was convicted two weeks ago of killing his wife Maya. And Larry was back in court Monday facing another charge. Mike, remind us about that.

[Mike Nardi]

Police allegedly found an unregistered firearm and other guns in Larry's house back in 2021 during their investigation into Maya's disappearance. And he was charged with possession of an unregistered assault weapon.

[Andrea Canning]

This was not brought up during the murder trial, correct?

[Mike Nardi]

Correct. Larry's defense team argued that it wasn't related to the murder, so the two charges shouldn't be tried together. And the judge agreed. Larry's defense team opted for a bench trial on the weapons charge.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so that's why Larry was back in court. The judge allowed cameras into the courtroom for the hearing. Let's take a listen to what happened next. It's not what we were expecting.

[Jim Clemente]

All right, how do you plead to a violation of penal code section 30605, subsection A? Guilty or not guilty?

[Madeline Morrison]

Guilty.

[Andrea Canning]

Any idea why he entered a plea at this point, Mike? Is it just because once you've been convicted of murder? Maybe. Why not?

[Mike Nardi]

That might very well be so. Larry has already spent more than four years in a county jail awaiting his murder trial. And the maximum sentence that he could receive for the gun charge is only three years, meaning he already has more than enough time served.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so what is next for Larry?

[Mike Nardi]

The judge said he will sentence him on both charges on September 29th. He's facing 25 years to life in prison on the murder charge. It will be up to the judge to decide if he'll be allowed to be paroled after serving a minimum of 25 years. So there is a chance he could get out of prison one day.

[Andrea Canning]

Thank you so much for these updates, Mike.

[Mike Nardi]

Thanks, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

For our final story this week, we want to take you back to the last time we saw Rex Heuermann, the Gilgo beach serial killer, in court. After admitting to the murders of eight women, he stood before a judge for sentencing in June. He didn't have much to say to the women's families gathered in the courtroom.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

There are no words I can say.

[Jim Clemente]

I am responsible for what was said

[Madeline Morrison]

in this room today.

[Jim Clemente]

The words I would say have no

[Narrator/Advertiser]

meaning and I'm going to leave it there.

[Andrea Canning]

But as part of his plea deal, Heuermann is did agree to tell his story to investigators from the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. Heuerman, who is serving a life sentence in a maximum security prison, will now have to answer analysts questions about his crimes, his life, and what led him to kill. It's a process my next guest knows very well. Retired supervisory special agent Jim Clemente is a former FBI profiler with over 22 years of experience. Experience digging into the minds of criminals including the D.C. snipers John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo. In fact, he was the inspiration for several of the characters in the long running TV series Criminal Minds and a writer and producer on the show as well. Welcome to the podcast, Jim.

[Jim Clemente]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Very excited to talk to you. This is really interesting. So you were featured in a New York Times article profiling the Gilgo beach murderer back in 2011. And this, this was before investigators had any idea the killer was Rex Hman. You offered up some insight into who the killer might have been. So tell us about what your, your theories were back in the day and they've really held up all these years later.

[Jim Clemente]

Okay, first let me just tell you what they're based on. Is criminal investigative analysis or behavioral analysis. And what we do is we look at victimology. We look at the crime location, the crime scene, the behavior with the victims. And together, when we analyze all of that, FBI agents, FBI supervisory special Agents, and the behavioral analysis unit come up with a profile by reverse engineering that behavior back to the type of person who committed the crime. For example, the demographics in the area. We felt that because he kept coming back to the same disposal site that he had a connection to that area. He didn't just stumble upon it. He knew it very well. He used to live there or work there or may still. And it turned out that was. That was the case. There was a seasonal nature to the crimes in that they happen mainly during times when people would be on vacation. So I said he probably lives with a wife and kids or his parents, and these are the times at which he. He sends them away on vacation so he can go ahead and do his horrible sadistic things.

[Andrea Canning]

Which he did. Which he did. One of them. They were in Iceland, Right, right.

[Jim Clemente]

And the other killings, New Jersey. I said he would be meticulous because of the way that he bound some of the victims. And it turned out that he was an architect. And that's a very meticulous profession.

[Andrea Canning]

Absolutely.

[Jim Clemente]

So those are all things that turned out to be fairly accurate in this case. But it's not guesswork. It's based on leaking out information by his behavior.

[Andrea Canning]

Everyone was fascinated when they heard that as part of the end to this case with Rex that he would sit down with the FBI. Were you surprised that he agreed to that?

[Jim Clemente]

I wasn't surprised that he was going to be interviewed. The surprising thing was that he agreed to it up front. That tells me something about his ego, which I would have guessed anyway. I think he had a tremendous ego and. And this gave him a feeling of superiority. He could, quote, teach the FBI. So what will happen is he will probably. Well, we had a protocol that is an approved research protocol. And there were several hundred questions. I can't go into the specific questions that are asked because it is proprietary, but certainly every aspect of his development as a child, Every aspect of his fantasy life, Every aspect of his sexual behavior throughout his life, and every aspect of his crimes will be delved into in great detail.

[Andrea Canning]

How do you go about preparing for an interview like this? Are you bringing out photos and transcripts

[Jim Clemente]

or the entire case file? You have to go through the entire case file. Sometimes that takes months. And we go through every one of their crimes sequentially. Most of the offenders that we did interview. Loved the fact that we were giving them sort of a platform to talk about what they did, to relive those experiences. And you have to pretend that it doesn't bother you. You have to sort of build rapport with the person and actually build up their ego and make them feel relaxed and able to open up to you about very horrible and intimate details. Probably one of the worst parts of it is you have to do it in a maximum security federal prison. You know, you have to go in there unarmed, and when those doors clang shut, you know that most of the people there are not happy with. With FBI agents being around.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. When you're dealing with such horrible crimes and you're diving in so deep, how do you go home at night after something like that and try to be normal and try to be with your family and try to, you know, it's, it's. It. We kind of have to do that at Dateline too, you know.

[Jim Clemente]

Yeah, sure. Doctors and nurses see the worst things that. That health problems can cause for humans, and FBI profilers see the worst things that humans do to one another. You have to develop this clinical detachment in order to not miss the nuances. In other words, if you get too emotionally involved, you. You can't see the forest for the trees, and you are. You're unable to function. I mean, it's just. It's difficult. But things that drives you forward is that in the end, when you catch a serial offender, you're preventing future crimes. You're saving someone from that same fate.

[Madeline Morrison]

So true.

[Jim Clemente]

And I think that is what keeps me going and keeps my colleagues going, and it's. It. You carry a big burden because when you come home, unfortunately, what it does is it probably brings a lot of hypervisil, vigilance, and maybe some cynicism to our lives, but it's a necessary result of doing that job.

[Andrea Canning]

Do you think that we'll ever hear what Rex has to say to the FBI, or will that just be locked up in a vault and in the minds of the profilers?

[Jim Clemente]

I think it will be something that will be kept in house. I think you may. Maybe 10 or 20 years from now, somebody might write a book about it and talk about some of the details. But generally it's used for the intended purpose, which is to help increase the institutional knowledge of the profilers in the behavioral analysis unit so that they can help law enforcement across the country and around the world solve these cases.

[Andrea Canning]

Jim, this was a wonderful conversation. So interesting.

[Jim Clemente]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

Thank you. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

[Jim Clemente]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. But starting on Monday, make sure to check out a brand new season of Missing in America. Josh will be back with six new cases of people who have disappeared, told through the voices of those left behind. I remember my dad sitting by the

[Madeline Morrison]

phone weeping, just waiting on it. To ring.

[Andrea Canning]

To get early access and to listen. Ad free. Subscribe to Dateline Premium. And coming up this Friday on Dateline, Blaine has an all new episode for you about a beloved cyclist death and the trail of lies and mushrooms that help detectives solve the mystery. If somebody eats enough of it and doesn't get any sort of medical help,

[Madeline Morrison]

then it could be fatal.

[Mike Nardi]

Yes.

[Andrea Canning]

Watch the mushroom mystery this Friday at 10, 9 Central on NBC. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey and Keani Reed. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Groth and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown. Kuriloff production and fact checking help by Yana Johnson. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. Okay, thanks very much. Bye everybody.

[Ben Crump]

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