A Hawaii doctor's wife testifies against him. A Dad's retrial in Mississippi. And realtor safety.

Summary

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Dateline: True Crime Weekly – March 26, 2026

Host: Andrea Canning, NBC News
Episode Focus:

• Hawaii doctor’s wife testifies against him in attempted murder case
• Mississippi dad’s murder retrial, with his daughter as the star witness
• Realtor safety following a cold-case arrest
  Date: March 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

Andrea Canning and her team cover three major true crime stories: a dramatic attempted murder trial in Hawaii pitting wife against husband; the emotionally fraught retrial of a Mississippi father accused of killing his daughter's boyfriend; and the latest in realtor safety following a high-profile arrest in a 15-year-old Iowa cold case. Legal experts, producers, and those personally touched by crime provide insight, context, and firsthand accounts.

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1. Hawaii Doctor on Trial: Wife Testifies Against Her Alleged Attacker

[Segment starts: 02:17]

Case Summary:
Dr. Gerhardt Koenig, a respected anesthesiologist, stands trial in Honolulu for allegedly attempting to murder his wife, Arielle Koenig, with a rock during a hike on the Pali Puka Trail. Dr. Koenig’s defense claims Arielle was the aggressor. The episode centers on Arielle’s emotional testimony, the couple’s turbulent relationship, and contrasting prosecution and defense narratives.

Key Discussion Points & Timeline

• Background on the Couple (04:03–04:53):

  • Married since 2018, lived in Maui with two young sons and Dr. Koenig’s older son from a previous marriage.
  • Both highly educated and successful in their fields.

• Prosecution's Narrative (05:03–06:16):

  • Prosecutor alleges Dr. Koenig led Arielle on a trail she was uneasy about.
  • At a narrow cliff edge, he allegedly pushed her toward the drop, producing a syringe and attempting to inject her (the syringe and vial were never found).
  • When the syringe was knocked away, he switched to using a rock, striking her multiple times.

• Memorable testimony – Arielle’s account:

  • "I just started screaming because I...In my mind, he was trying to knock me unconscious to... drag me over that. I just was screaming then." — Arielle Koenig [03:27]
  • She threw herself to the ground to avoid being pushed over the cliff and clung to shrubs for safety.
  • During the attack:
    • "Nobody's gonna hear you out here. Nobody's coming to save you. And I'm saying...everyone knows we're on a hike. They'll know this wasn't an accident and our kids will be orphans." — Arielle Koenig [09:27–09:45]

• Defense's Case (07:50–08:06):

  • Maintains Arielle was the aggressor; claims she tried to push Dr. Koenig first and was the one to use the rock. Emphasizes lack of severe injury as evidence the prosecution is overstating the attack.

• Injury Details (10:46–11:08):

  • Defense highlights that Arielle suffered no skull or facial fractures and was discharged from the hospital the next day.

• Prosecution's Motive Argument (07:26–07:46):

  • Suggests Dr. Koenig’s anger over Arielle’s alleged "emotional affair" precipitated the attack.

• Arielle on the ‘affair’:

  • "Some of them were flirty in nature [the messages with Jeffrey Miller]." — Arielle Koenig [10:04]
  • Dr. Koenig reacted with anger after discovering the texts:
    • "Called me a lying bitch. You're a whore..." — Arielle Koenig [10:22]

• Son's Potential Testimony (06:29–07:16):

  • Dr. Koenig’s call to his son Emil after the attack is a flashpoint; prosecution claims he confessed, defense says he was suicidal.

• Arielle’s demeanor on the stand:

  • “Very stoic from the moment she walked into that courtroom...She answered the questions very clearly and concisely.” — Mihailani Richardson [08:16–08:32]

• Trial Duration:

  • Expected to continue into mid-April; Dr. Koenig may testify in his own defense.

---

2. Mississippi Dad’s Retrial: Daughter as Star Witness

[Segment starts: 13:35]

Case Summary:
Jeffrey Spence is retried for the murder of his daughter Caitlyn’s boyfriend, Kirby Carpenter. The case hinges on family testimony, alleged secrets, shifting motives, and procedural changes after the first trial ended in a hung jury.

Key Discussion Points & Timeline

• Background (13:35–15:24):

  • Kirby, 36, Marine vet, successful businessman, father of two.
  • Dated Caitlyn Spence, had a daughter together; Caitlyn’s parents stayed with them to help after the birth.

• Timeline of the Crime (15:51–16:41):

  • Caitlyn’s parents left for Virginia the day before the shooting; prosecution believes Jeffrey Spence drove back to commit the murder.

• Evidence and Motive (16:50–17:49):

  • Money suspected as motive: Spence found with bags of Kirby’s silver coins.
  • Key tip came from an employee who said Caitlyn alleged:
    • “Daddy killed Kirby.” [16:50]

• Plea Deals and Testimony (17:55–18:18):

  • Caitlyn pled guilty to being an accessory after the fact; her mother took an Alford plea.
  • Caitlyn's pivotal testimony:
    • “He said that I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.” — Caitlyn Spence recounting her father's statement when confronted about Kirby’s death [18:37–18:56]
    • “That he was confessing to me that he had killed Kirby.” — Caitlyn Spence [19:01]

• Defense Strategy and First Trial (19:32–21:13):

  • Argued lack of physical evidence, challenged the timeline, and introduced potential alternate suspects in the retrial.
  • New in this trial: allegations that people outside the Spence family may have had motive to harm Kirby.

• Retrial Updates (21:20–21:38):

  • Caitlyn expected to testify again; both prosecution and defense reference her as a crucial witness.

---

3. Dateline Roundup: National Case Updates & Realtor Safety

[Segment starts: 24:21]

Utah Nurse Verdict

• Case Background (24:30–25:09):

  • Megan Sundwall, nurse, tried for allegedly murdering her friend Casey Terry via insulin overdose, suspected over a life insurance policy.

• Key Quotes:

  • “It was not a best friend merely helping out her other best friend in the whole world. This was control.” — Andrea Canning [25:31]
  • “Our system requires proof, not just a good stringing together of suspicious looking things…proof.” — Defense Attorney [25:50]

• Outcome:

  • Megan Sundwall acquitted of murder, convicted of assisting suicide (second-degree felony). [26:48]

Hudson Valley, NY: 20-Year Cold Case Acquittal

• Edward Hawley retrial for Megan McDonald’s 2003 murder ended in acquittal after a prior hung jury (27:19–28:05).
  • “It's only right for me to be a free man...I didn't do anything.” — Edward Hawley [28:05]

Iowa Realtor Murder Arrest

• 15 years after Ashley Oakland was killed at an open house, police arrest fellow realtor Kristen Ramsey (28:40–30:08)
  • Iowa Realty: “Relieved for Ashley’s family...shocked that Ramsey was the person arrested.”
  • Ramsey worked for the same realty firm as Oakland.

---

Realtor Safety: Spotlight on Carl Carter

[Segment starts: 30:24]

Background: Beverly Carter, Carl’s mother and a top-selling Arkansas realtor, was murdered in 2014 by a “client.” Carl Carter now advocates for realtor safety through the Beverly Carter Foundation.

Safety Insights & Tips

• Industry Risks (32:09–32:42):

  • Crimes against realtors are more common than realized; affects both men and women.
    • “Everyone, I think, has risk that associated with this industry that these precious people are working alone.” — Carl Carter [32:09]

• Safety Recommendations:

  • Verify client identities and motivations before meeting [33:01]
  • Meet in public places first [33:23]
  • Always check phone battery and signal before appointments [33:26]
  • Utilize technology:
    • Surveillance (e.g., Ring, Alexa) adds “accountability” [33:37]
    • Wearable safety devices—jewelry or pins that can discreetly call for help [34:20]
    • Visibility of recording may deter would-be attackers

• Safety Tools:

  • Invisawear: Discreet wearable panic button [34:40]
  • Forewarn: Reverse phone lookup to verify identities [34:49]

• More Resources:

  • BeverlyCarterFoundation.org for safety tips
  • National Association of Realtors safety committee resources [35:04–35:15]

---

Notable Quotes

• “She just looked straight ahead...very stoic from the moment she walked into that courtroom.” — Mihailani Richardson on Arielle Koenig [08:16]
• “He said that I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.” — Caitlyn Spence, about her father’s reaction after the murder [18:56]
• “This was control. And the person who was in control…sits at that table.” — Prosecutor on the Utah nurse case [25:32]
• “Everyone, I think, has risk that associated with this industry…” — Carl Carter, on realtor safety [32:09]
• “You know, for a case that I think many of us had just accepted that there was probably not going to be closure.” — Carl Carter, on the Iowa cold case arrest [31:53]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Hawaii Doctor Attempted Murder Trial: 02:17–11:41
• Mississippi Dad Retrial: 13:35–21:38
• Utah Nurse Verdict: 24:21–26:58
• Hudson Valley Cold Case Update: 26:58–28:40
• Iowa Realtor Murder Arrest: 28:40–30:19
• Realtor Safety Interview with Carl Carter: 30:24–35:24

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Episode Tone and Conclusion

True to Dateline’s style, the episode is direct, investigative, and deeply empathetic to both victims and those seeking justice. Andrea Canning and her guests probe emotional testimony, conflicting theories, and new strategies in the search for truth. The longform interview with Carl Carter gives the episode a practical, caring coda—the reality of risk and the importance of survival strategies for professionals often overlooked in true crime.

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Useful for listeners who missed it:

• Get the latest developments in some of the week’s biggest true crime stories
• Understand complex cases from both legal and personal perspectives
• Learn actionable safety tips if you—or someone you know—work in real estate

---

Transcript

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[Andrea Canning]

Hey, good morning, everybody. You're listening to the DATELINE story meeting. Let's jump right in here. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news.

[Caitlin Spence]

Any indication on motive? Nothing yet.

[Marissa Meyer]

They were looking at all of the

[Arielle Koenig]

cases that detective had been on because

[Marissa Meyer]

she had deleted one or two pieces of evidence.

[Andrea Canning]

A lot of it happens after they

[Rachel White]

figure out who it is, really.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's March 26, and here's what's on our docket. Family drama in a Mississippi courtroom as a man accused of murdering his daughter's boyfriend stands trial for a second time and his daughter is the prosecution's star witness.

[Rachel White]

The last time that Caitlin testified, she said she started questioning her dad and he basically told her not to look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Andrea Canning]

In DATELINE Roundup, we're on verdict watch in the trial of the Utah nurse accused of poisoning her best friend. And 15 years after the murder of an Iowa realtor, news of an arrest.

[Marissa Meyer]

They were shocked that Ramsey was the person who had been arrested.

[Andrea Canning]

Plus, how can realtors protect themselves? We've got some safety tips.

[Carl Carter]

It's just a little pin behind my necktie. I could be pushing it. Sending an alert to the authorities to tell them, hey, I need help.

[Andrea Canning]

Before all that, we're heading to a courtroom in Honolulu where an anesthesiologist is on trial for attempting to murder his wife with a rock. On the morning of March 24, 2025, a woman's cries for help pierced the quiet of the Pali Puka Trail, a scenic and sometimes treacherous hike overlooking Oahu. Two hikers raced toward the noise and Saw a man beating a woman with a rock. They called 911. Hi. Someone's currently being attacked on the top of Paulipuka where there's a man trying to kill her.

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She has blood all over her face.

[Andrea Canning]

The man fled and the hikers helped the woman, Ariel Koenig, down the tr. After an hours long manhunt, police found her alleged attacker at the edge of the forest. It was her husband, Dr. Gerhardt Koenig. Now, Dr. Koenig is on trial in a Honolulu courtroom accused of second degree attempted murder. He has pleaded not guilty and his defense says the story is much more complicated. They say far from being a victim, Ariel is the one who attacked Gerhardt first. On Tuesday, exactly one year since the attack, jurors got to hear from Ariel as she took the stand to tell her story of that morning and what led up to it.

[Arielle Koenig]

I just started screaming because I. In my mind he was trying to knock me unconscious to get to be able to drag me over that. I just was screaming then.

[Andrea Canning]

Here to bring us the latest from the courtroom is Hawaii News now anchor and reporter Mihailani Richardson. Welcome back, Mihealani.

[Mihailani Richardson]

Aloha, Andrew. Good to see you.

[Andrea Canning]

Before we get to this story, there's been severe flooding impacting Honolulu this past week. I hope you all are staying safe. I know you're covering that as well.

[Mihailani Richardson]

That's right. And actually the judge in the Koenig trial, he thanked the jurors for coming to trial because every single juror has been able to make it to court despite the flooding.

[Andrea Canning]

Amazing. So to start, Mahealani, tell us about the relationship between Gerhardt and Ariel Koenig. They've been married since 2018. Two young sons together living in Maui.

[Mihailani Richardson]

That's right. They live in Kahului, Maui. And they also have a 19 year old stepson. That's her stepson, his son, Emile Koenig from a previous marriage. Emile was also living with them as well.

[Andrea Canning]

And this is a successful couple, right? I mean, Gerhardt was an anesthesiologist, former medical school professor. Ariel worked at a nuclear engineering company.

[Mihailani Richardson]

That's right. Highly successful, highly educated. It was this dreamlike situation. She was able to work from home while Dr. Koenig was an anesthesiologist, going to different hospitals on Maui.

[Andrea Canning]

The prosecution and defense, they presented very different theories as to what happened that day. Take us through the sequence of events the prosecutor outlined to the jury during his opening statements.

[Mihailani Richardson]

Well, the prosecutor said that they went up this trail, the Palipuka trail. It's not A very far hike to get up to. And the prosecutor said that Ariel did not want to be there. She felt this unease in being there. And that's what led to this whole confrontation, or it was an attack, as the prosecutor calls it.

[Judge]

And then as Ariel's moving down the trail to safely get by the defendant at this narrow spot with the cliff behind her, the defendant pushes her backwards towards that cliff. They start wrestling, they start struggling, they start fighting.

[Andrea Canning]

And he had a syringe in his hand.

[Mihailani Richardson]

That's right. Ariel Koenig in her testimony said that in the middle of this alleged attack, he pulled out a syringe and tried to stab her with it. And that he also reached into his bag and pulled out a vial. And so at this point we don't know what was in that vial. The syringe and the vial were never found by police.

[Andrea Canning]

The prosecution at least is thinking the theory is that, you know, the, the syringe came first and then she knocks it out of his hand. So then he moves onto a rock.

[Mihailani Richardson]

That's right. She told police that she was hit multiple times by this rock, a jagged lava rock, about 10 times. The defense said that she was hit twice.

[Andrea Canning]

The prosecutor said Gerhardt called his older son Emil after he ran off into the forest. What's important about that phone call?

[Mihailani Richardson]

Well, it is very important, Andrea, because at this point it's becoming a he said, she said, in a violent attack. Who attacked who? Who started it? This was a FaceTime call and apparently Dr. Koenig was seen on camera and his son saw him bloody. We haven't heard from Emil yet. But According to prosecutors, doctor, Dr. Koenig confessed to trying to kill his wife and he was very depressed about it. But according to the defense, it was not a confession and that he was depressed that they had gotten into the situation and that he wanted to end his own life by jumping off the cliff.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh my goodness. This is Gerhardt's own son who's going to have to testify against him. That's a lot. So what is the prosecution's alleged motive for the attack?

[Mihailani Richardson]

The two of them had been working on their marriage and leading up to the incident, they had been going through couples counseling. He had concerns that she had this so called emotional affair with her married co worker. And the prosecution is basically saying that this fueled this rage in Dr. Koenig.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense of course presented a very different version of what happened.

[Mihailani Richardson]

That's right. The defense repeatedly has said that this was an attack instigated by Ariel Koenig that Ariel Koenig tried to push Gerhart first and that she tried to hit him with the rock.

[Andrea Canning]

So that was the long buildup to Ariel's testimony on Tuesday. What was your impression of her as she took the stand? I mean, she's facing off with the man she says tried to kill her.

[Mihailani Richardson]

Well, she was very stoic from the moment she walked into that courtroom. She looked straight toward where she was supposed to go. She sat down, all eyes were on her, and she just looked straight ahead.

[Judge]

State your name.

[Arielle Koenig]

My name is Arielle Koenig.

[Mihailani Richardson]

And she answered the questions very clearly and concisely.

[Andrea Canning]

Let's take a listen to some of that testimony.

[Arielle Koenig]

My back was to the cliff, and he's facing me on the cliff.

[Judge]

What happened next?

[Arielle Koenig]

When I walk up to him, then he grabbed me really forcefully by my upper arms. And he said, I'm so sick of this. Get back over there. And he starts pushing me back towards the cliff.

[Andrea Canning]

Ariel says it really felt like Gerhardt was almost kidding at first. And then for her, she says it turned into a matter of life and death very quickly.

[Mihailani Richardson]

That's right. She says that she was only 10ft or less to that cliff, which drops hundreds of feet.

[Arielle Koenig]

I threw myself onto the ground because there's a lot of trees and shrubs there so that I could hold on.

[Judge]

Can you tell us what you remember he said as he was on top of you?

[Arielle Koenig]

Yeah, I mean, I'm screaming and he's

[Marissa Meyer]

telling me, shut the up.

[Arielle Koenig]

Nobody's. Nobody's gonna hear you out here. Nobody's coming to save you. And I'm saying, like, you can't do this. Everyone knows we're on a hike. They'll know this wasn't an accident and our kids will be orphans.

[Andrea Canning]

She talks about this relationship with Jeffrey Miller, the guy from work, and she really downplays it. You know, she's saying, yes, I talked to him. But I, you know, it wasn't at all, like, anything bad.

[Mihailani Richardson]

Right.

[Judge]

Did you ever have sex with Jeffrey Miller?

[Arielle Koenig]

No.

[Judge]

In these messages, did you flirt with Jeffrey Miller?

[Andrea Canning]

Yes.

[Arielle Koenig]

Some of them were flirty in nature.

[Andrea Canning]

How did Gerhardt find out about Ariel's this emotional affair?

[Mihailani Richardson]

Well, he logged onto her WhatsApp, and he found that there was this long conversation, and Ariel described an angry confrontation.

[Judge]

You say angry, upset. Can you describe what he said to you?

[Arielle Koenig]

Yeah. Called me a lying bitch. You're a whore. You know, how could you do this sort of thing?

[Andrea Canning]

How did the defense handle Ariel? On cross examination, the defense asked very

[Mihailani Richardson]

pointed questions every single time about the truthfulness of her answers.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense questioned her on just how serious her injury really was after the incident.

[Mihailani Richardson]

The defense said that the laceration on her head, though it looked bad on the pictures, it actually was not as severe and it just bleeds a lot.

[Judge]

You did not have any skull fractures, correct?

[Arielle Koenig]

That's correct. No skull fracture?

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. No facial fractures, correct?

[Arielle Koenig]

That's correct. No, no fracture on my face.

[Judge]

You're discharged the next day, correct?

[Arielle Koenig]

Yes, sir.

[Andrea Canning]

Interesting. How long do we can we expect this trial to go on for?

[Mihailani Richardson]

Well, we expect the trial to go on until mid April. We potentially can expect to hear from Dr. Koenig himself. He is on the witness list for the defense.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, well, since he's claiming self defense, you know, jurors like to hear, you know, a firsthand account of that. We'll see what happens. Mahalani, thank you so much for bringing us this story all the way from Hawaii. We love hearing Aloha at the top of our stories. It's very special. Thank you.

[Mihailani Richardson]

Mahalo, Andrea. It's good to see you again.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up, a man accused of murdering his daughter's boyfriend stands trial for a second time. And his defense team has a bold new strategy.

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Andrea Canning]

On November 30, 2022, father and local businessman Kirby Carpenter was shot and killed outside his home in Tippa County, Miss. He was just 36 years old. For nearly a year, the murder went unsolved. Then on the one year anniversary of his death, investigators arrested Kirby's girlfriend, Kaitlin Spence, along with her parents, Jeffrey and Karen. All three pleaded not guilty. Then in a sudden change of heart before their trial, Caitlyn and her mother, Karen took a plea deal, leaving Jeffrey to face a jury alone. Caitlin testified against her father for the prosecution. Father told you that he was responsible

[Judge]

for Kirby Carter's death, correct?

[Rachel White]

Yes.

[Andrea Canning]

But after four and a half hours of deliberation, jurors could not reach a verdict. A judge declared a mistrial. This week, prosecutors are trying the case again. Jeffrey Spence is on trial in a new courthouse in a different county. DATELINE producer Rachel White, who attended the first trial, is back to tell us what else might be different this time around. Welcome back, Rachel.

[Rachel White]

Thanks, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

So first thing, why the move to a new county for this new trial?

[Rachel White]

So the judge ordered the retrial to be moved. They were looking for jurors who didn't know details about the crime or the case. And the case has gotten a lot of local attention. So now we're in Calhoun County.

[Andrea Canning]

What is the atmosphere like in the courtroom?

[Rachel White]

Kirby's family members that are in the courtroom have been emotional. I think there are a lot of things that are hard to hear. And there are also, you know, photos from the crime scene that I think are really devastating for them to have to look at.

[Andrea Canning]

So before we get to the opening statements, let's remind people of what happened here. Tell us about Kirby.

[Rachel White]

Sure. So Kirby Carpenter was 36 years old. He was a Marine Corps vet, a father of two young children and by all accounts a very successful businessman. He worked as a rare metals dealer and often handled cash, gold, silver, things like that.

[Andrea Canning]

And Kirby's relationship with Caitlyn Spence, his girlfriend, is really central to this case. Explain how they met and how her family became a part of his life.

[Rachel White]

Yeah, sure. So Caitlyn and Kirby began dating in 2020 and they had a daughter together in July of 2022. And around that same time, Caitlin's parents, Jeff and Karen Spence, came from Virginia where they lived to help them with the baby. They stayed for several months before returning to their home on November 29, 2022, which one day before Kirby was murdered.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so walk us through what investigators say happened the day Kirby was killed.

[Rachel White]

So investigators say that Kirby arrived back at his house after going to the grocery store and he was shot twice. Once in the neck and once in the chest. And then his body was dragged to the side of his carport in the driveway. And then two days later, on December 2nd, Kaitlyn Spence called 911 and reported finding Kirby's body.

[Andrea Canning]

It took a year, but detectives, the investigation eventually leads that them to Caitlyn and her parents. They're saying that they are involved in this?

[Rachel White]

Yes. So that information came to police from a former employee, someone that Kirby knew told police that while he was at Kirby's funeral, Caitlyn allegedly said something to him along the lines of daddy killed Kirby, speaking about Jeff Spence.

[Andrea Canning]

But Rachel, you just said that that Jeffrey Spence had already gone home to Virginia the day before Kirby's death. That's 500 miles away. Is that possible? That he was the killer?

[Rachel White]

So prosecutors say that Jeff Spence did drive home to Virginia, leaving Kirby and Caitlin's home, but then he drove back to Mississippi to kill Kirby. As for motive, the prosecution alleges that it was really about money. A few days after the shooting, when Jeffrey Spence was in Mississippi, Kirby's side of the family say they noticed something suspicious. They called the sheriff's department to report finding bags of silver coins belonging to Kirby in Jeff Spence's vehicle.

[Andrea Canning]

We mentioned that Caitlyn and her mom took plea deals. How did that come about, Rachel?

[Rachel White]

So Caitlyn pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact to capital murder. And her mother, Karen Spence, entered an Alford plea to charges of being an accessory after the fact, degree and larceny. Now, an Alford plea is not her pleading guilty. She's just saying the prosecutor has enough evidence to convict her and she's received a suspended sentence and is now on probation.

[Andrea Canning]

Are Caitlyn and her mom saying that they knew that the dad had done this?

[Rachel White]

That's not exactly what they're saying. So the last time that Caitlin testified, she said that she did not know that her dad had killed Kirby until many months later when they had this conversation at a waterfall near her parents property.

[Caitlin Spence]

I asked him if he had anything to do with Kirby's death. He turned aggressive and very short with me. He said that he did what he had to do, that the less I knew, the better. He said. He said that I shouldn't lick a gift horse in the mouth.

[Andrea Canning]

How did you take this conversation with respect to Kirby's death?

[Caitlin Spence]

That he was confessing to me that he had killed Kirby?

[Andrea Canning]

So she is in trouble because she didn't say anything. Like, why does she have to take a plea deal? Like, was she in on the planning? Sounds like she wasn't, right?

[Rachel White]

I mean, we don't know. One of the reasons that investigators are sure that Caitlyn wasn't the one who pulled the trigger is because she was actually on security video at a local Walmart in the parking lot with her daughter at the time that they believe that Kirby was killed. So they know that she couldn't have been involved in the actual murder.

[Andrea Canning]

So. So Caitlin testified against her dad, and that trial last fall still ended without a verdict. Rachel, the defense must have put up a good fight.

[Rachel White]

They focused on, you know, common sense arguments. They told the jury that there was no physical evidence placing Jeff Spence at the scene. And they said that the timeline just didn't add up. They said that the prosecution didn't prove that he drove back to Mississippi like they said that he had.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so mistrial was in September. Retrial is happening right now. Opening statements got underway on Tuesday. An assistant DA Was up for the prosecution. What did he ask the jury to pay attention to, and did you notice anything different?

[Rachel White]

So he laid out just what the jury can expect to hear from from prosecutors, and he said that they would prove that Jeff Spence made that drive back to Mississippi to kill Kirby Carpenter.

[Judge]

Jeff Spence's defense is, hey, I wasn't there. I left on the 29th.

[Andrea Canning]

We'll prove otherwise. The defense also had their opening statements. Anything new from them?

[Rachel White]

Well, the team itself is new, so Jeff Spence is now being represented by a new set of attorneys. And, you know, just like his defense at the first trial, they say there's no proof that Jeff was at the scene when Kirby was murdered. What felt new this time, though, is that they said, you know, things about Kirby's family that they might have been the ones who wanted to steal from him. And that definitely wasn't a part of the trial last time. They really also leaned into alternate suspects, including someone that they say owed Kirby money and had threatened him 24 hours before he was killed. And they also brought up another man who allegedly threatened to shoot Kirby.

[Defense Attorney]

There are so many people who had motive, who had opportunity to kill Kirby Carter, so many people who wanted to see him harmed.

[Andrea Canning]

Those people were never, ever investigated. Rachel, can we assume Caitlyn will testify again. She's such a a key player in all of this.

[Rachel White]

We don't know what day, but attorneys for both the prosecution and the defense mentioned her in their openings and said that we'd hear from her.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, Rachel, thank you. We will keep an eye on this as the trial moves along.

[Rachel White]

Thanks, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. A jury decides the fate of the Utah nurse accused of murdering her best friend. And 15 years after an Iowa realtor was shot dead at an open house, there's been an arrest. Plus, what can real estate agents do to stay safe? We talked to one realtor who's made it his mission to get agents the training and tools they need to protect themselves.

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline producer Marissa Meyer. Thanks for being here, Marissa.

[Marissa Meyer]

Thank you for having me, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so first up, we are headed to Provo, Utah, for a story that you brought us last week. Marissa. This is the case of Megan Sundwal, the former nurse on trial for allegedly murdering her best friend, Casey Terry. Remind us of the details of that case.

[Marissa Meyer]

Yes. So Casey Terry died in August of 2024, and her friends and family believed that she was terminally ill with cancer. But investigators soon learned she didn't actually have cancer and she died from an insulin overdose. The prosecutors are alleging that her best friend, Megan Sunwall, poisoned her because Megan believed she was the beneficiary of Casey's life insurance policy.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, this is a very twisted case. What is new since the last time we talked about it?

[Marissa Meyer]

Closing arguments took place on Monday, and the prosecutor pushed back on the defense's theory that Megan was helping her friend fulfill a wish to die by suicide. It was not a best friend merely helping out her other best friend in the whole world.

[Andrea Canning]

This was control.

[Marissa Meyer]

And the person who was in control during that entire time frame sits at that table.

[Andrea Canning]

Megan Tundwall. What did the defense have to say?

[Marissa Meyer]

So Megan's defense attorney said again and again that there's simply no proof that Megan was the one who killed Casey.

[Defense Attorney]

Our system requires proof, not just a good stringing together of suspicious looking things. Suspicious looking words, reasonable doubt. Comes from lack of evidence, lack of proof.

[Marissa Meyer]

And he argued that based on the glucometer readings, it very well could have been Casey who gave herself the fatal dose of insulin. And for anyone who doesn't know what a glucometer is, because I didn't before I started covering this case.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, me neither.

[Marissa Meyer]

It's a. It's a portable medical device that essentially measures the amount of sugar in your bl.

[Defense Attorney]

There is no evidence that anything was injected after Casey Terry was unconscious. So it is unequivocal in this case. Casey Terry could have done anything that was the cause of her death herself.

[Andrea Canning]

The case went to the jury on Monday afternoon. Have they reached a verdict?

[Marissa Meyer]

Yes. They found Megan Sudwell not guilty of murder, but they did find her guilty of assisting Kayce Terry in the commission of suicide, which is a second degree felony.

[Andrea Canning]

For our next story, we are going to Hudson Valley, which is in upstate New York, and a jury deliberated for 14 days before returning a verdict in the retrial of a man named Edward Hawley for the murder of his ex girlfriend, Megan McDonald. So, Marissa, this is a story the podcast covered a while ago, but just remind us about the details.

[Marissa Meyer]

So back In March of 2003, Megan McDonald is 20 years old. Her friends say that they saw her at a party, but that she left to go look for her ex boyfriend, Edward. Holly. Megan's body was found two days later on a dirt path. She'd been bludgeoned to death.

[Andrea Canning]

Marissa. The investigation didn't lead to an arrest until 20 years later when police arrested Edward Hawley. He was indicted for second degree murder in 2024. Last year on the podcast, we covered his first trial, which ended in a hung jury. In January, his second trial got underway. Days and days go by. As we said, 14 days before the jury returned its verdict. What did the jurors decide?

[Marissa Meyer]

They acquitted Edward Hawley.

[Andrea Canning]

Hmm. And we should say Edward Hawley spoke out. He told the Mid Hudson News, quote, it's only right for me to be a free man. I didn't do anything. I should have never been in jail. What did Megan's family have to say about the verdict?

[Marissa Meyer]

So they posted a statement on the justice for Megan McDonald Facebook page. They thanked the prosecutors and said, after decades of seeking the truth, we now have the answer to who took Megan from us. So it, it seems like it is, you know, some kind of closure for them.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. For our final story, we're off to West Des Moines, Iowa, where there's major news in the 2011 murder of 27 year old realtor Ashley Oakland. Marissa, tell us about that case.

[Marissa Meyer]

So this is a really interesting case. Andrea Ashley was fatally shot while working in an open house in a townhouse development in West Des Moines. And the case went cold for many, many years despite hundreds of leads that had come in. Then in 2024, the Iowa Attorney general launched a cold case unit. And last year, new detectives got onto the case. That brings us to last week when Police announced that 53 year old Kristen Ramsey had been arrested and charged with Ashley Spurner. And Ramsey has yet to enter a plea in this case.

[Andrea Canning]

So this came out of the blue for a lot of people. What do we know about Kristen Ramsey?

[Marissa Meyer]

Yeah, so investigators really haven't shared much information at this time. But we know that at the time of her murder, Ashley was working as an agent with a firm called Iowa Realty. And at the time of the arrest last week, Kristin Ramsey was working for a subsidiary of Iowa Realty. And she had started there. A few months after Ashley's death. Iowa Realty told NBC News in a statement that they were relieved for Ashley's family that there had been an arrest in the case, but were shocked that Ramsey was the person who had been arrested.

[Andrea Canning]

Kristen Ramsey's next court date is scheduled for early April, and we will make sure to follow along as the case progresses. Marissa, thank you very much for that update and for all the updates.

[Marissa Meyer]

Thank you so much, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

For our final story, I wanted to talk to someone who's been on my mind a lot ever since I heard about the arrest made in the case of murdered Iowa realtor Ashley. And his name is Carl Carter. I first met Carl more than a decade ago, reporting on a Dateline episode called the Client, which told the story of another murdered realtor, Carl's mom, Beverly.

[Carl Carter]

I'm texting her, I'm calling her, and I, I can't. I can't get any response.

[Andrea Canning]

In 2014, Beverly was one of the top selling realtors in Little Rock, Arkansas, when she was kidnapped and murdered by a man posing as a new client, Aaron Lucy Lewis. Lewis and his wife Crystal were eventually convicted of kidnapping and capital murder charges in connection to Beverly's murder. Ever since his mother's death, Carl, who is a realtor himself, has been determined to do what he can to keep realtors safe. He set up the Beverly Carter foundation, an organization dedicated to training realtors about the potential dangers they face and the tools they can use to protect themselves. And Carl is here now to share some of those tips. And, and we're so grateful to have you on. Carl, it's good to see you again.

[Carl Carter]

It's always, always good to see you. What a tough time. I mean, for all of us that know of Ashley's story and I, you know, through the work that I've done with a nonprofit, you know, have befriended people that were close to Ashley. And so, you know, for a case that I think many of us had just accepted that there was probably not going to be closer.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And then suddenly, suddenly we have this arrest. It's a ripple effect for all of the realtors around the country when something like this happens. And you know that all too well. Realtors and these kinds of crimes, it's more common than people might realize.

[Carl Carter]

Absolutely. I mean, there are, you know, countless agents that I've met across the country, and it doesn't just fit one particular profile of a person that's going to be victimized. Everyone, I think, has risk that associated with this industry that these precious people are working alone.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. I mean, secluded Areas, sometimes, not always. The best cell service everywhere can be at nighttime. And we should say, Carl, this isn't just an issue for women. It happens to men, too. In the business.

[Carl Carter]

It does. There have been just in the past couple of years, several men realtors that were killed while doing the work. Through the years, I've met many, many men that have been either assaulted or assaulted and robbed.

[Andrea Canning]

What tips do you. Do you give Realtors?

[Carl Carter]

Well, you know, just thinking about my precious mom, you know, the. The number one thing that I always go to is try to find out who you're working with. What have you done to verify their identity as best you can, ensure that they are actually interested and have the means to purchase a.

[Andrea Canning]

And, Carl, I know you talk about meeting in a public place first.

[Carl Carter]

Absolutely.

[Andrea Canning]

Always check your cell phone battery and signal before heading to an appointment. Technology has really stepped up with other things you can do to stay safe.

[Carl Carter]

There are things like the Alexa devices or the ring doorbells. So those add a layer of surveillance, but they also add accountability. You know, I've had agents say, everything's been fine. We've shown multiple properties, and suddenly starting to just get that, know, feeling in your stomach. And so they'll say, hey, just want to be mindful of the fact that I read in the property description that this home has recording devices. And so just that kind of little ping of accountability to that person would hopefully, you know, deter some.

[Andrea Canning]

They might think twice about what they're about to do if. If they're thinking, oh, is there a chance that there's a camera in here?

[Carl Carter]

But I also love just some of these wearable devices that you can be even more discreet, so it looks like jewelry. Or there's one that's. It's just a little pin. And so I can put it, you know, behind my necktie. And I could be pushing it, sending an alert to my support group or, you know, the authorities to tell them, hey, I need help.

[Andrea Canning]

We should say what you were talking about, you know, with behind your tie or a piece of jewelry. It's called Invisawear. And also there's a. There's a system called Forewarn. What is it, Carl?

[Carl Carter]

So it simply. It is. You take a phone number and it does a reverse lookup, and it hits a ton of databases based on, you know, this data. Are they who they say they are?

[Andrea Canning]

So, you know, if. If people want to get these tips, what should they do?

[Carl Carter]

So. Beverlycarterfoundation.org but also there's a treasure trove of resources through the national association of Realtors. They have an ongoing safety committee.

[Andrea Canning]

Fantastic. Carl, thank you for doing this interview. For all you're doing to save lives of of other real estate agents. Thank you.

[Carl Carter]

It's my honor.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. If you're looking for a show to binge this weekend, we've got the podcast for you. All six episodes of Josh's original podcast series Trace of Suspicion are out now. If you haven't listened yet. It's a story about the mysterious death of a marine and his widow's eyebrow raising behavior and the investigation that followed. There are some twists you won't see coming. You can get that for free wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to listen without ads, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Thanks for listening. DATELINE True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey and Keani Reed. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Groth and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kurloff. Production and fact checking help by Audrey Abraham. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Kuhl is senior executive producer of Dateline. Have a great day everybody.

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