A murder suspect's brother under scrutiny. Breakthrough in parents' quest for answers. And should jurors question witnesses?

Summary

Dateline: True Crime Weekly – Episode Summary

Release Date: February 13, 2025

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International Murder Investigation: The Anna Kanesevich Case

In this episode, Andrea Canning delves into a troubling international murder investigation involving Anna Kanesevich, a Florida woman who vanished in Spain a year ago. The case took a pivotal turn when Anna's husband, David Kanesevich, was arrested under suspicions of her murder.

Key Developments:

• Disappearance and Evidence: Anna moved from Fort Lauderdale to Madrid amidst marital separation. Surveillance footage emerged showing a man resembling David purchasing duct tape and spray paint near her apartment and disposing of a suitcase from the building (03:59).

• Federal Indictment: Initially charged with kidnapping in May, David faced upgraded charges to murder six months later, as authorities noted abrupt cessation of Anna's digital activities, suggesting her demise (06:11).

• Family Under Scrutiny: The FBI expanded its investigation to David's brother, Ugessa Kanesevich. Federal warrants allege Ugessa's involvement in tampering with evidence and obstructing the investigation by coercing Apple to lock David’s phone. Additionally, Ugessa traveled to Sevilla around the time Anna disappeared, raising further suspicions (07:24).

• Legal Countermovements: Anna’s family has initiated wrongful death lawsuits against both David and Ugessa, accusing them of fraudulent activities and interference related to Anna’s disappearance (10:37).

Notable Quote:

Brian Sheehan: “They believe that they will see the day that Ellen gets justice.” (20:19)

Philadelphia Case: Ellen Greenberg’s Mysterious Death

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the 14-year-long quest by Ellen Greenberg’s parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg, to uncover the truth behind their daughter’s death. Originally ruled a homicide, the manner of death was later controversially changed to suicide, prompting the Greenbergs to seek justice relentlessly.

Case Highlights:

• The Night of the Incident: On January 26, 2011, Ellen returned home early from work and was later found dead with multiple stab wounds. Her fiancé, Sam Goldberg, reported being unable to enter the apartment initially and eventually discovered Ellen's body (14:38).

• Controversial Ruling: The medical examiner switched the death classification from homicide to suicide after a meeting with the district attorney's office, citing lack of forced entry and other factors (15:48).

• Family’s Investigation: Over the years, the Greenbergs have consulted numerous experts who argue that Ellen couldn’t have inflicted the wounds upon herself. A key testimony from a forensic pathologist highlighted inconsistencies, such as a stab wound lacking hemorrhaging, indicating Ellen’s inability to administer it post-mortem (17:31; 18:06).

• Recent Breakthrough: Just days before their scheduled civil trial, Dr. Marlon Osborne, the original medical examiner, submitted a verification suggesting Ellen’s death should not be classified as a suicide. Subsequently, a new, independent medical examiner has been tasked with reviewing the case, potentially reopening the investigation (18:29; 19:30).

Notable Quote:

Brian Sheehan: “She did not kill herself. And she turned around to her husband.” (20:19)

DATELINE Roundup: Key Crime Stories of the Week

1. Eric Thompson’s Retrial in Hawaii

Eric Thompson faces his second murder trial for the 2022 killing of his wife's former lover, John Takahara, an FSU law professor and acupuncturist. The defense is actively challenging the prosecution's case by highlighting the lack of eyewitnesses, the missing murder weapon, and insufficient electronic evidence tying Thompson to the crime scene.

Trial Insights:

• Defense Strategy: Emphasizes Eric’s character and the absence of concrete evidence.

• Notable Testimony: Eric's brother, Micha Thompson, provided character testimony, describing Eric as "an easygoing guy" who "wouldn't murder someone" (23:46).

• Trial Progress: As the defense scrutinizes the prosecution's case, Eric has pleaded not guilty, maintaining his innocence.

2. Donna Adelson’s Motion for Release in Florida

Donna Adelson, a 75-year-old accused of orchestrating a murder-for-hire plot against her son-in-law, Dan Markell, awaits her trial while seeking release from jail. Currently in protective custody, Adelson's defense argues that she is not a flight risk and contends that her arrest was based on misinterpretations of her travel intentions.

Key Points:

• Allegations: Accused of masterminding the plot to murder Markell.

• Defense Argument: Claims her trip to Vietnam was for vacation purposes, not flee from prosecution.

• Upcoming Rulings: A decision on her bond is expected by February 27, 2025, with the trial scheduled for June 2025 (27:57).

3. Dana Chandler’s Third Murder Trial in Kansas

Dana Chandler stands accused of the 2002 murders of her ex-husband, Mike Sisco, and his fiancée, Karen Harkness. This marks her third trial in two decades, following a guilty verdict overturned due to prosecutorial misconduct and a hung jury in her previous retrial.

Current Trial Developments:

• Self-Representation: Chandler is currently representing herself, though the court has appointed standby counsel to assist if needed (26:44).

• Defense Stance: Maintains her innocence throughout the proceedings.

Juror Questions in Trials: A Judicial Perspective

A notable segment of the episode features Judge Boyd Patterson, who discusses the growing trend of jurors posing questions during trials. This practice is seen in high-profile cases such as Jason Chin and Nima Momeni, where jurors actively engaged with the testimonies through their inquiries.

Judge Patterson’s Insights:

• State Variations: While 34 states and the federal system permit juror questions, some states like Minnesota, Texas, and Nebraska do not (29:45).

• Procedure: Jurors submit written questions, which are then reviewed by lawyers before being vetted by the judge for appropriateness (30:19).

• Benefits: Enhances juror engagement and ensures informed decision-making by clarifying uncertainties (31:26).

• Criticisms: Concerns include potential distractions, speculative questions, and the burden on prosecutors to address all juror inquiries without compromising legal strategies (32:17).

Notable Quote:

Judge Boyd Patterson: “They make more informed decisions.” (31:26)

Conclusion and Upcoming Highlights

The episode culminates with a preview of upcoming segments, including:

• Future Cases: Discussions on the ongoing trials of Eric Thompson and Dana Chandler.

• Special Features: Insights from Judge Patterson on the evolving dynamics of jury participation.

• Exclusive Interviews: Upcoming interviews with key figures involved in landmark true crime investigations.

Teaser: Next week, Blaine Alexander will host Andrea's temporary absence with a special guest, Keith Morrison, discussing his new podcast series, Murder in the Moonlight.

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Notable Timestamped Quotes:

• Brian Sheehan: “They believe that they will see the day that Ellen gets justice.” (20:19)

• Judge Boyd Patterson: “They make more informed decisions.” (31:26)

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the intense investigations, legal battles, and evolving judicial practices discussed in this episode of Dateline: True Crime Weekly. Whether delving into international mysteries or scrutinizing local justice systems, Andrea Canning and her guests provide an in-depth look into the multifaceted world of true crime.

Transcript

[Andrea Canning]

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[Alex Leray]

Mental health meds in can cause depression, suicidal thoughts or actions in patients with Huntington's disease. Call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden behavior or mood changes or suicidal thoughts. Don't take in serious side effect may include allergic reactions like sudden, potentially fatal swelling in hives, sleepiness the most common side effect and heart rhythm problems. Know how in grezza affects you? Before operating a car or dangerous machinery, report fever, stiff muscles or problems thinking as these might be life threatening. Shaking, stiffness, drooling and trouble with moving or balance may occur.

[Andrea Canning]

Take control by asking your doctor about Ingrezza.

[Alex Leray]

Learn [e-mail] that's ing R E Z Z A dot com in Grezza.

[Andrea Canning]

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[Brian Sheehan]

Okay.

[Kelly Moody]

I think we got everybody on. We'll get going.

[Andrea Canning]

It's the start of another workday for the DATELINE team here at 30 Rockefeller Center.

[Alex Leray]

Sorry, when's the try?

[Andrea Canning]

Now our producers are catching up on breaking crime news around the country, swapping tips and story ideas. The clock starts ticking on that April 2nd. This just broke yesterday, but Andrea clagged it. Is he charged in the US So.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

He'S charged with spinning.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay.

[Kelly Moody]

Okay.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's February 13th and here's what's on our docket. In Philadelphia, after a first grade teacher died under mysterious circumstances, her parents launched a 14 year quest for answers. Last week they got big news.

[Brian Sheehan]

Her mother looked me in the eye and said, we haven't gone away. We're not going away.

[Andrea Canning]

In DATELINE Roundup, there's news from a Florida jail about Donna Adelson, the grandma accused of masterminding a plot to murder her son in law, FSU law professor Dan Markell. And more from the Retrial of the Hawaii man accused of murdering his wife's acupuncturist ex lover.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

He described Eric as an easygoing guy, that murdering someone would be extremely out of character.

[Andrea Canning]

Plus, for the first time on the podcast, we're joined by a judge. He tells us why he thinks jurors should be allowed to ask questions during a trial.

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

They're questions that people from outside the system would be curious about. How does blood spatter tell the story? What does DNA really mean? How long can it last?

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, new developments in an international murder investigation. After a Florida woman went missing in Spain, her husband was arrested and accused of killing her. Now the FBI is looking at his family to see if they played a role. It's been a year since anybody has heard from Anna Kanesevich and a year since a man wearing a motorcycle helmet was caught on video spray painting over the lens of a security camera in her Madrid apartment building. Federal prosecutors say that mystery man was Anna's husband, David Kanesevich. In May, David was arrested and charged with Anna's kidnapping. Six months after that, the charges were upgraded. NBC 6 South Florida WTVJ covered the news. This takes it to a whole new level, this federal indictment accusing him of.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Of murdering his wife.

[Andrea Canning]

If, in fact, he were convicted of that, he could potentially face the death penalty. Anna had moved from Fort Lauderdale to Spain while she and David were separating. Prosecutors say David tracked her down there and killed her, but her body has not been found. Search efforts for Ana Maria in Europe.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Have turned up empty.

[Andrea Canning]

His lawyer says he's not guilty, and there's no proof Ana is even dead. But investigators in this country have been busy, too. Last week, we got our first hint that David may not be the only person in his family under scrutiny. Here to tell us more about what seems to be a widening investigation is Dateline associate producer Alex Leray. Hey, Alex.

[Kelly Moody]

Hey, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Let's start at the beginning. Remind us of the FBI and the prosecutor's theory of this crime.

[Kelly Moody]

Sure. So Anna and David were allegedly going through a contentious divorce. They had built a successful business together over the course of their marriage, but her family has said that he didn't want to split their assets. 50 50. So in December 2023, she moves to Madrid, Spain, in search of, you know, a fresh start. And in early February 2024, her friends got text messages that didn't exactly sound like her. And she misses a dinner with her friends. When Spanish authorities did a welfare check, they found no one in her apartment. But they did turn up surveillance footage of a man who, according to prosecutors, looks a lot like David Kanesevich, buying duct tape and spray paint. Hardware store close to Anna's apartment. And hauling what appears to be a suitcase out of her building. And they learned he'd rented a car in Serbia, put thousands of miles on it, changed the license plates, and returned it with newly tinted windows.

[Andrea Canning]

David isn't disputing that he was in Europe, but he says that there's a really good reason why he was there.

[Kelly Moody]

Yeah, he says he was in Serbia visiting his mom, who is aging and needed his help. So he stayed out there for some time. In May, when he came back to Miami, he was arrested. Arrested at the airport for Anna's kidnapping.

[Andrea Canning]

And then those charges were upgraded to murder, correct?

[Kelly Moody]

Yeah. So sources tell me that they upgraded the charges because there was proof that Anna had a drastic change of life pattern, meaning to them that she has passed away. Movement on her Google and Spotify accounts abruptly stopped, as did the contact with her family and friends.

[Andrea Canning]

And we should say that David has pleaded not guilty. So let's get into the latest development. Who was the other member of David's family who is now in the crosshairs of investigators?

[Kelly Moody]

So we've learned that the Department of Homeland Security has seized the laptop and phone of David's brother, whose name is Ugessa.

[Andrea Canning]

How is he wrapped up in this now? What are they alleging?

[Kelly Moody]

They're alleging in a search warrant they filed last month that they're looking at Ugessa Kanesevic for aiding and abetting, accessory after the fact, wire and bank fraud, and destruction of records. The warrant was unsealed by a judge in Miami last week. What's kind of a surprise is we know that the FBI spoke to him last March, but he said he was estranged from David. In the warrant, it says he told them he only spoke to David because he found out from Ana's brother that she was missing. Ugassa says that he had to ask his mother for David's phone number.

[Andrea Canning]

But according to the FBI, David's brother was the first person David called when he was arrested in May. Correct?

[Kelly Moody]

Right. And the FBI is saying since then, the brothers have been in touch pretty often. FBI says they have probable cause that his phone and laptop have evidence that Ugessa has pretended to be David to get Apple to lock David's phone so investigators couldn't open it. And then, most recently, David's brother flew to Spain on vacation with his family. Last month, he went to Sevilla, which is about a three and a Half hour train trip from Madrid, which is where Ana disappeared. And they say that they don't know where he was for two days in January. So they're investigating what he's been doing electronically, but also maybe physically in an area where Spanish authorities had conducted searches for Ana.

[Andrea Canning]

Do we know if the FBI was able to get anything off of David's brother's phone and laptop?

[Kelly Moody]

We don't know what the FBI has been able to look at, if anything at all. The defense challenged the seizure of the devices, writing in a motion that UGESA is a part of the Kinesovich defense team and that the, quote, target devices contain attorney client communications and attorney work production. UGESA is not a lawyer. But because of that motion, prosecutors say they hadn't extracted any data from the devices.

[Andrea Canning]

The FBI also seems to be investigating payments that David's brother has made to inmates in the federal prison where David is being held. What's that all about?

[Kelly Moody]

Yeah. So the FBI is alleging that David needs money to buy burner phones so that he can communicate with his brother without the calls being recorded.

[Andrea Canning]

Has David's brother said anything about these allegations? He hasn't been arrested or charged, but has he responded publicly at all?

[Kelly Moody]

No, not that I know of. He was in attendance, though, at the hearing in Miami on February 3rd, where this warrant was unsealed.

[Andrea Canning]

So this warrant not only mentions David's brother, but another family member of David's. And we're talking about his mom?

[Kelly Moody]

Yes. Neither David's brother or mother have been arrested or charged with anything. But in the warrant, the FBI agent writes, law enforcement concludes that Ugessa and his mother disposed of evidence in this case and used Facebook to discuss doing so. So two things. After David was arrested in May, after he flew back from Serbia, his landlord sent his belongings to his parents that included his laptop. But the FBI didn't know about that until June. And when they found out, they searched his parents house and they found Facebook messages between UGESA and his mom. A couple times he said, can you turn on his computer? And his mom said, yep, right away. And then a bit later, Ugassa messaged his mom, I'm done. The computer is empty. The FBI agent also writes. Software and programs are available that allow an individual to remote wipe or delete all stored data.

[Andrea Canning]

Alex, what is next in this case?

[Kelly Moody]

We will just have to wait and see if there are any more arrests.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay. In the meantime, Anna's family filed a wrongful death lawsuit using some of this information that became public last week.

[Kelly Moody]

Yes, they did. They are suing both David and his brother, saying that there are claims for wrongful death, fraudulent transfers, conspiracy, interference and the tort of outrage stemming from David's year long refusal to release Anna's body for burial.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, Alex, thank you for bringing us the latest on this.

[Kelly Moody]

Thanks Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up in Philadelphia, a new chapter in a family's 14 year quest for the truth about their daughter's mysterious death.

[Josh Greenberg]

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[Sandy Greenberg]

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[Andrea Canning]

On January 26, 2011, a Nor' Easter hit Philadelphia. Schools closed and 27 year old first grade teacher Ellen Greenberg went home early to the apartment she shared with her fiance. Just a few hours later, she was found dead with a knife four inches deep in her chest. Her parents, Josh and Sandy, were devastated. There's a hole in our life. Our life is not complete. For more than a decade, Ellen's parents have waged a battle to find out the truth about what happened the night their daughter died, even filing two lawsuits against the city of Philadelphia. All that came to an Abrupt halt last week. Major development today in a couple's fight for answers 14 years after their daughter's death. Brian Sheehan, a reporter at NBC10 WCAU in Philadelphia, has been following this story for years. He joins us now to tell us more. Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[Brian Sheehan]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

So why don't you just start by telling us a little bit about Ellen Greenberg. Who was she? What was she like? What have you learned?

[Brian Sheehan]

So Ellen was the only child of Josh and Sandy Greenberg. She was beloved by her students, by her friends. Her parents describe her as someone who just had a bright, bubbly personality, someone of a short statue. But as cliche as it is, she walked into a room and people noticed her.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, let's fast forward now to the evening Ellen was found dead. We know from the investigation report that her fiance, Sam Goldberg, was reportedly at the gym. And when he came home, the door was bolted shut from the inside. What happened next?

[Brian Sheehan]

So he claims that he starts banging on the door. He's yelling to her. He then sends her a series of text messages telling her to open up the door. And then at some point, he breaks down the door, goes into the apartment, and he sees Ellen is on the kitchen floor with. She's unresponsive at that point.

[Andrea Canning]

So he. He calls 911.

[Brian Sheehan]

He calls 911, and the 911 operator says, does she have a pulse? And he goes over, and it's at that point then that he tells the 911 operator that he sees a knife in her chest.

[Andrea Canning]

So this is not just one stab wound we're talking about. There are 20, including 10 to her head and her neck. And Brian, she had some bruising as well.

[Brian Sheehan]

She did. So when the medical examiner reviewed her body after her death, he did note that there were bruising on her body in various stages of healing.

[Andrea Canning]

So the medical examiner initially ruled the manner of death was homicide, but that all changed a few weeks later. What happened?

[Brian Sheehan]

Reportedly, the Philadelphia Police Department met with members of the district attorney's office and the medical examiner in Philadelphia. And after this meeting, the manner of death was switched from a homicide to a suicide. There were no signs of forced entry, so there was no proof that they said that there was a homicide that took place.

[Andrea Canning]

And also, the knife only showed Ellen's DNA.

[Brian Sheehan]

Correct.

[Andrea Canning]

Was there any type of note in the apartment or, you know, something she had written to a family member or friend that she was distraught or depressed or, you know, some type of indication?

[Brian Sheehan]

There were questions that came up afterwards about Ellen's state of mind in the weeks leading up to her death. In fact, she had spoken to her parents several weeks prior saying that she was anxious. Her parents set her up several weeks prior with a psychiatrist who noted that Ellen was dealing with anxiety. But in her notes, she actually said that she's. She's not suicidal.

[Andrea Canning]

And what about her fiance's story? Did the police look into that? You know, he says he's at the gym when this is happening, that the door is bolted shut. Did they find anything out with that?

[Brian Sheehan]

There wasn't much investigation. The security cameras show that he is down at the gym. There's no camera on the floor that we have seen of their apartment showing the actions outside of. Of the apartment. There are text messages. They have the text messages and they have the 911 call.

[Andrea Canning]

The family obviously has a very strong conviction that this was not suicide. They essentially began their own investigation into this, Consulting many experts over the years. What did they find?

[Brian Sheehan]

So a lot of the experts that reviewed this concluded there was no way that Ellen could have stabbed herself that many times. In fact, during a deposition, there is a forensic pathologist who reviewed Ellen's spinal tissue. In her deposition, she states that one of the stab wounds did not have any hemorrhaging. And no hemorrhaging means no pulse, which means Ellen could not have stabbed herself and could not have administered that wound because she was already dead.

[Andrea Canning]

Josh and Sandy Greenberg ultimately filed two civil lawsuits against Philadelphia the city. One sought to change the manner of death. The other sought damages for intentional infliction of emotional damages by city employees who conducted the investigation. This legal battle was going on for more than five years. Last week, on the eve of this civil trial, there was a big development in the case.

[Brian Sheehan]

Yes. So Dr. Marlon Osborne, who is the medical examiner who originally ruled Ellen's death a homicide and then switched it to suicide. Dr. Osborne, on Friday night, two days before they were scheduled to go to trial, he writes in a legal verification that Ellen, it's manner of death should be ruled something other than suicide.

[Andrea Canning]

And the. The city and the Greenbergs also, they reached a settlement of some sort.

[Brian Sheehan]

So we went to. We. I was there in court and we. They were about to begin jury selection. And both sides, the attorneys from the city and the Greenberg's attorneys, they were going back and forth. We saw them walking down the hallway multiple times that morning. And they reached an agreement that the medical examiner in Philadelphia will review Ellen's manner of death.

[Andrea Canning]

And is this medical examiner who's reviewing the manner of death is this a different medical examiner or the same one?

[Brian Sheehan]

To our knowledge, it is going to be a different one because Dr. Marlon Osborne, the original medical examiner, he no longer practices in Pennsylvania. So it is going to be an independent investigation, a new investigation with the medical examiner's office in Philadelphia.

[Andrea Canning]

And what is happening then with the police? Is this investigation open? Are there plans to open it?

[Brian Sheehan]

So that's a good question. If the medical examiner's office comes back and says we determine Ellen's manner of death to be either undetermined or homicide, that will most likely start an investigation.

[Andrea Canning]

And the Greenberg spoke to NBC10 WCAU Philadelphia after the agreement. I hope today we made Ellen proud of us.

[Brian Sheehan]

Her father is a very stoic man and he broke down. They were walking through the halls of Philadelphia City hall with her picture and her mom says Ellen Greenberg did not kill herself. She did not kill herself. And she turned around to her husband. Josh showed him the picture and he stopped. He put his head down and he just started to sob. They believe that they will see the day that Ellen gets justice.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Brian.

[Brian Sheehan]

Thank you. I appreciate it. It was a pleasure.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, it's TOD Time for DATELINE roundup. We've got an update from Hawaii as the defense team for Eric Thompson, the man accused of murdering his wife's ex lover, makes its case. And Donna Adelson's latest court filing. The Florida matriarch accused of masterminding a hit for hire wants out of jail. Plus, we've seen it in a few cases this year. Jurors asking questions during murder trials. Does it work? We've got a judge to give us his take. Nice shot. Hey, thanks. Seeing a kidney coach from Frenius Kidney Care has been a game changer. Smart moves. With their help, I feel better and have more energy. So I can keep giving you a run on the court. Learn how to take control of your kidney health with Frenas kidney care. Visit kidneycoachconnect.com to learn more. That's kidneycoachconnect.com impact confirmed. The slayer has been activated.

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Demonic threat level increasing.

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is DATELINE associate producer Kelly Moody. Hey, Kelly.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Hi, Andrea. How are you?

[Andrea Canning]

Good. So you have the assignment of the year. This winter. You're in Hawaii to cover a case that we talked about a few weeks ago on the podcast. We're talking about Eric Thompson. He is on trial for the second time for the murder of his wife's former lover in 2022. His first trial ended in a hung jury. So, Kelly, first, just remind us about this case.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Eric Thompson is accused of fatally shooting his wife's lover, who was an acupuncturist by the name of John Takahara. His wife, Joyce Thompson, received fertility care from Takahara.

[Andrea Canning]

So it is now week four in the trial, and we are in the defense portion. They are trying to poke holes in the prosecution's case.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Yeah, definitely. From an investigation standpoint, there were no eyewitnesses to the shooting. The murder weapon wasn't ever found, and they're claiming that investigators didn't thoroughly search the area. They're also claiming that there's no electronic data, no GPS tracking data, no cell phone data tying Thompson to the area at all.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense also called Eric Thompson's brother Micha to give character testimony. What did he have to say about his brother?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

So he described Eric as an easygoing guy, like, I've never seen him.

[Andrea Canning]

Yell.

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

Swear, or no physical anything with Joyce.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

That murdering someone would be extremely out of character.

[Andrea Canning]

He doesn't let.

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

Let things affect him very much.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

And then when asked about how his brother Eric behaved around the time of Takahara's murder, he said there really wasn't any change to make note of.

[Andrea Canning]

He was, I guess, normal. Nothing to have me suspect anything. Eric has pleaded not guilty. What can we expect from the trial in the coming days?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

So in Eric Thompson's first trial, he did take the stand in his defense. So we're waiting to see if he'll do the same this time. And of course, his wife Joyce is still by his side and has been there every single day sitting behind him.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, we'll be sure to check back in on that one and see what the jury decides. Up next, a defendant in a double homicide out of Kansas, and this is not her first murder trial or her second. Kelly, bring us up to speed. On Dana chandler and her third murder trial in two decades.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Yeah. So Dana Chandler stands accused of the 2002 murders of her ex husband Mike Sisco and his fiance, Karen Harkness. Dana Chandler. Chandler and her ex husband had a pretty rocky relationship in the 90s. Their divorce took four years to be processed. Mike Sisko gained complete custody of the couple's two kids and Dana Chandler had to pay child support. Prosecutors claim Chandler became jealous, full of rage, obsessed with her ex husband, ultimately leading her to commit both murders. Dana Chandler went on trial for the murders, was found guilty, sentenced to life in prison in 2012. But then in 2018, the verdict was overturned because of prosecutorial misconduct. She was retried in 2022, but that trial ended with a hung jury. Chandler has been out on bond ever since.

[Andrea Canning]

So her third murder trial began last Friday. And the big news out of the courtroom last week is that Chandler is representing herself. You will hear testimony that I have maintained my innocence throughout this proceeding. And we've learned that the court appointed standby counsel for her.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Yeah. So even though Chandler waived her right to an attorney, a court order issued last Friday ensured that Chandler would at least have access to an attorney if she wants it.

[Andrea Canning]

Finally, we are off to Florida where Donna Adelson's defense attorneys are pushing for her release as she awaits her murder trial. She is the 75 year old family matriarch and fifth person charged in the murder for hire of her former son in law, law professor Dan Markell. Now she's in protective custody. Right, Kelly?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Yeah, that's right. She claims that she's been attacked by other inmates. In a motion to be released on bond, Adelson claims an inmate actually shoved her into a bunk. And then when asked why she attacked her, the inmate replied, because you're a killer. You're an expletive killer.

[Andrea Canning]

And her defense attorneys say should bond be set, she's not a flight risk. But remember, this is the woman who was arrested as she was about a one way flight to Vietnam. Although her lawyer argues she was going on vacation and there was no warrant for her arrest at the time. We can expect a ruling on this motion on February 27th. When Kelly can we expect her trial to begin.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Her trial is currently still set to start in June of 2025.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay. So many cases to watch. Thanks Kelly, for joining us this week. Enjoy Hawaii.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

Well, before I introduce my next guest, take a listen to this.

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

Did Jason Chin have any observable cuts or injuries on his body? Could you determine where a murder occurred? Were you able to identify the driver of the Prius that was investigated further?

[Andrea Canning]

That is the voice of Judge Boyd Patterson reading out juror questions to witnesses at the trial of Jason Chen. Chen was convicted last month of murdering his 22 year old girlfriend, Jasmine Pace. And the Jason Chen trial wasn't the first time we've come across jurors asking questions of witnesses in the courtroom. This year, our team noticed it at the trial of Richard Allen, the man convicted of murdering two schoolgirls in Delphi, Indiana.

[Sandy Greenberg]

Once the witnesses testified, the judge turns to the jurors and say, do you have any questions?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

And they're good questions.

[Andrea Canning]

More recently, jurors had lots to say. In San Francisco, where Nima Momeni was convicted of fatally stabbing Cash App co founder Bob Lee, there was quite a.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Large stack of questions from jury members to Nima.

[Andrea Canning]

This made us wonder, why do we hear jurors asking questions in some trials but not others? And what are the pros and the cons? So we asked Judge Patterson to come on the podcast and share with us what he's seen in the courtroom. When juries are given the freedom to ask what's on their mind. Hi, Judge. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

Thank you, Andrea. Good to be here.

[Andrea Canning]

So, as we mentioned, you allowed the juror questions in the Jason Chen trial. But. But, you know, most of the cases we cover don't involve jurors asking questions. Why do we see it sometimes and sometimes not?

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

It's a state issue. Overwhelmingly, the majority of states do allow it. 34 states and the federal system allow it. Minnesota, Texas and Nebraska clearly have put down decisions that do not allow jurors to ask questions.

[Andrea Canning]

Even though questions are allowed in a lot of states, a lot of judges won't use that tool. Is it always the judge that decides?

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

Yes, it is. The judge is the one that makes the call.

[Andrea Canning]

So take us inside the courtroom where it is allowed. How does it work?

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

What happens is the trial progresses where one side calls a witness and the other side gets to cross examine that witness. And at that point, I will ask the jurors if they have any questions for that particular witness. They write the questions down, they pass them to the bailiff, the questions come to the bench where the lawyers will talk about whether the question should or should not be asked. And if it's a question that clearly cannot be asked, I won't ask it. If they ask for a defendant's prior record and it's not relevant, I just want to ask the question. If they ask if it was raining that day or if, if any other blood was found in any other spot than was testified to, then I'll ask the question. The witness will face the jury when answering. Then finally the lawyers will have the chance to redirect or recross if they feel they need to develop the testimony any further to clarify the witnesses answers.

[Andrea Canning]

For the jurors, what would you say are the biggest benefits to allowing jurors to ask questions?

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

Oh, there's, there's many of them. It keeps jurors more engaged in the process. I mean, think about sitting in a classroom where you can't ask questions, the students can't ask questions. How much of that are they really learning as far as the actual significant, weighty reasons? I think that it's a good idea to let jurors ask questions. They make more informed decisions.

[Andrea Canning]

I can't help but feel like they're channeling their inner Dateline correspondent when they come up with these questions.

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

Absolutely. Questions that people from outside the system would be curious about. How does blood spatter tell the story? What does DNA really mean? How long can it last?

[Andrea Canning]

What are the criticisms of asking questions as you go along? Because there are places where this is not allowed. Why not?

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

The concerns that have been communicated to me from lawyers that I do respect talk about how they're concerned that the, the ability for jurors to ask questions may lessen the state's burden that, say, a prosecutor forgets to ask a question or ask in a certain way, then a juror can come back and ask the question. Another one that came up is that if a juror's question isn't asked, it might cause the juror to speculate about the withheld answer or resent their question not being asked. Maybe they think the lawyers are hiding something.

[Andrea Canning]

Judge, is it true that it can reduce hung juries?

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

I don't think so. Hung juries are possible if the jury does not have enough information for sure. Gaps in the proof, we'll call it allowing juries to ask questions doesn't change the proof. If the gaps were there before, they're still there at all.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, Judge Patterson, this has been fascinating. Thank you for giving us your insight.

[Ugessa Kanesevich]

Thank you, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Next week, I'll be off, but Blaine Alexander will be here to host and she has a very special guest, Keith Morrison. He'll be talking about his brand new podcast series, Murder in the Moonlight. A family was torn apart when a couple was shot to death in their quiet farmhouse. On America's great Plains. Never in a million years would you think that you'd see your parents house taped off, the farm taped off by that yellow tape. What followed was a lengthy investigation that included four suspects, spanned three states and came down to one single shiny clue. Subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple podcasts, Spotify or DatelinePremium.com to hear the first two episodes now or listen to the first two episodes free on Monday, February 17th. And coming up this Friday on Dateline. Craig Melvin has an all new two hour episode. Susan Smith made headlines 30 years ago when she let her car roll into a South Carolina lake, drowning her two young sons who were strapped inside. In a revealing and rare interview, Susan's ex husband David Smith sits down with Craig to talk about his heartbreak and his fight to keep her behind bars.

[Kelly Moody]

Would you have been better off had the state executed her?

[Brian Sheehan]

Wow. For myself, yes. Because I wouldn't have to be dealing with what's coming up now and in the future.

[Andrea Canning]

Watch Return to the Lake airing this Friday at 9, 8 Central on NBC or stream it starting Saturday on peak. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown. Kuriloff production and fact checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production, Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. All right, thanks very much everyone. Bye.

[Franklin Becker]

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