A TikTok teen charged with murder. A defense team requests evidence testing. Plus, interrogation tactics.

Summary

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Dateline: True Crime Weekly – Episode Summary

Episode Title: A TikTok teen charged with murder. A defense team requests evidence testing. Plus, interrogation tactics.
Host: Andrea Canning (NBC News)
Date: August 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode covers three significant and timely true crime stories:

1. The arrest of TikTok-active teen Sarah Grace Patrick for the alleged murder of her mother and stepfather in Georgia.
2. Updates on the 13-year-old UNC Chapel Hill murder case, focusing on new DNA evidence testing requests by the defense.
3. A round-up of courtroom developments in the Donna Adelson and Dan Serafini cases, plus an expert segment on police interrogation tactics.

Andrea Canning hosts in-depth discussions with journalists, legal analysts, and field producers to dissect the week’s biggest crime stories, offering both critical updates and behind-the-scenes context.

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Key Stories and Discussions

1. TikTok Teen Sarah Grace Patrick Charged With Murder

Timestamps: 00:53–09:16

The Case Overview

• Victims: Kristen Brock (mother) and James “Jamie” Brock (stepfather) found shot dead.
• Suspect: Kristen’s 17-year-old daughter, Sarah Grace Patrick, arrested and charged as an adult with two counts of murder and two counts of aggravated assault.
  • “Her mother, Kristen Brock, and her stepfather had been shot dead in their home.” – Andrea Canning (01:48)

Social Media Twist

• Sarah Grace posted TikToks grieving her parents, including selfies with mascara running and requests for help publicizing the case.
• She contacted true crime accounts for coverage before her arrest.
  • “Why would you ask me to cover a case where you are going to get arrested for taking your parents' lives?” – Crime TikToker reading messages (05:20)

Family Split & Bond Hearing

• The bond hearing revealed deep rifts: Sarah Grace’s father and grandfather staunchly defend her innocence.
  • “I know 100% in my heart that Sarah’s innocent. She would never do this.” – D.J. Patrick, Sarah Grace’s biological father (05:57)
• Stepfather’s family testified fearing for their safety if Sarah Grace is released:
  • “These people are genuinely scared of this girl. They are afraid that she will hurt them if she gets out of jail. If the defendant can kill her own parents... I fear for my own safety.” – Rebecca Leftwich, Times Georgian (06:39, 07:09)
• Character witnesses paint Sarah as a loving, community-supported teen.
• The judge denies bond, citing flight risk and potential witness manipulation.
  • “The prosecutors had proved that she was a flight risk... The judge denied bail, denied bond.” – Rebecca Leftwich (08:19)

Trial Timeline

• Preliminary hearing in September; trial set for January 5.
  • “Speedy justice – that’s exactly what the judge said.” – Andrea Canning (08:58–09:02)

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2. UNC Chapel Hill Murder – Defense Requests New Evidence Testing

Timestamps: 11:02–16:55

Case Recap

• Victim: Faith Hedgepeth, found brutally beaten and sexually assaulted in her apartment in 2012.
• Suspect: Miguel Salguero Olivares – charged with first-degree murder after DNA ancestry technology linked him as a match.

Evidence Questions & Defense Filings

• The defense claims a bloodstain swab from the scene was never DNA-tested and could be crucial.
  • “Police took a swab of a 2 inch long blood stain from the scene. But according to the defense, it was never tested.” – Mike Nardi (12:49, revisited in 15:39)
• Karina Rosario (Faith’s roommate) and her ex-boyfriend (Eric Jones) were initially persons of interest but cleared after DNA testing.
• New defense motions suggest the timeline and presence of blood on Karina may yield alternate theories, though no direct accusations are made.
  • “They seem to be implying that the blood on Karina’s finger could have belonged to Faith, and... that the murder could have happened while Karina was still in the apartment.” – Mike Nardi (16:15)
• Next hearing TBD; case remains active.

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3. Dateline Weekly Roundup

Timestamps: 19:01–24:04

A. Donna Adelson Trial (Tallahassee, Florida)

• Accused of: Masterminding a murder-for-hire plot to kill ex-son-in-law, Dan Markel.
• Key update: Daughter Wendy Adelson’s subpoena to testify for the defense is quashed; however, she will still testify for the prosecution with use immunity.
  • “Wendy won’t have to testify for the defense. But she will be called by the state as a prosecution witness.” – Brad Davis (19:57–20:11)
• Trial is underway.

B. Dan Serafini Sentencing Drama (Auburn, California)

• Convicted of: Killing his in-laws.
• New development: Sentencing halted after new attorneys file for a new trial, citing possible juror misconduct based on post-trial interviews.
  • “The judge granted [Serafini’s] motion to pursue a new trial... There’s going to be a hearing in late October.” – Brad Davis (21:52)
• Family of the victims visibly upset in court.

C. Jennifer Dulos Murder Case (Connecticut)

• Conviction: Michelle Troconis found guilty of conspiring to murder Jennifer Dulos.
• Update: A judge lets Troconis pursue a trial over claims of ineffective counsel.
  • “A judge... ruled that Troconis’ petition could move forward to a trial in January.” – Brad Davis (23:26)
• Potential for vacated conviction if jury finds merit.

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4. Inside Police Interrogations: Tactics & Insights

Timestamps: 24:06–28:26

Guest: Kristen Barnett (U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations, former)

Core Tactics

• Goal is truth-finding, not just confessions.
  • “The goal of an interrogation is actually not just to get a confession. You want to get to the facts of what happened.” – Kristen Barnett (24:41)
• Baseline interviews are used to calibrate approach based on subject’s personality.
  • “I always like doing a baseline interview first… then come back later with a much more thorough interview.” – Kristen Barnett (25:01)
• Justifying behavior can elicit confessions when the suspect is inclined to please or explain.
• Withholding the most damning evidence (“ace in your pocket”) can be critical:
  • “You may have an ace in your pocket… basically irrefutable evidence. You’ll want to reveal that probably last.” – Kristen Barnett (26:23)
• Rapport, room setup, and the psychological environment matter.
  • “The interview location is really important as well… victim interviews in a soft room… subject interview in a harsher setup.” – Kristen Barnett (26:47)
• Strategic use of breaks and silence can prompt suspect admissions.

Notable Quotes

• “That really comes back down to that relationship you’ve established with the person sitting across from you. Keep them talking.” – Kristen Barnett (27:55)
• “Any lawyer is going to tell you to keep your mouth shut if you’re in an interrogation room, right?” – Andrea Canning (28:08)
• “Yes. That’s pretty much tip number one.” – Kristen Barnett (28:15)

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Memorable Quotes by Segment

• “You don't want to judge somebody by the way they grieve. I would hate to have my grief picked apart some days.” – Rebecca Leftwich (04:15)
• “They said there's a mountain of evidence. That is the exact phrase that she used.” – Rebecca Leftwich referencing Carroll County Sheriff's Office (05:32)
• “I truly believe she deserves a chance to be home surrounded by those who care about her.” – Family friend at bond hearing (07:46)
• “If the defendant can kill her own parents in such a violent, violent manner, I fear for my own safety.” – Stepfather’s family, via Leftwich (07:14)
• “They thought it was someone close to Faith and there was DNA left at the scene… They were thinking, this is our killer. Find the owner of this DNA.” – Mike Nardi (12:54)
• “We need to ensure for both sides to process. So Serafini wasn’t sentenced as planned.” – Brad Davis (21:52)

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Episode Flow and Tone

The episode is brisk, factual, and focused, reflecting the analytic style and depth for which Dateline is known. Canning and her guests maintain a respectful, inquisitive tone, balancing empathy for victims and the accused with a search for clarity and context. The episode leans on both local reporting and national legal analysis, featuring direct quotes and firsthand accounts to keep listeners close to the evolving stories.

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Summary Table of Key Segments

| Segment | Start Time | End Time | Participants | Main Focus | |----------------------------------------|------------|----------|---------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------| | TikTok Teen Murder Case | 00:53 | 09:16 | Andrea Canning, Rebecca | Arrest and family splits; social media dimension; denied bond; trial set| | UNC Hedgepeth Case Evidence Motions | 11:02 | 16:55 | Andrea Canning, Mike Nardi| New testing on evidence, defense theory, status update | | Legal Roundup (Adelson, Serafini, Dulos)| 19:01 | 24:04 | Andrea Canning, Brad Davis| Courtroom surprises, new trial motions, legal maneuvers | | Interrogation Tactics | 24:06 | 28:26 | Andrea Canning, Kristen B.| Police strategies, rapport building, revealing evidence, legal advice |

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:

This installment delivers fresh true crime insights, including a sensational teen-murder case with a TikTok twist, the resurgence of DNA forensics in a campus homicide, and evolving courtroom dramas with national implications. Plus, a practical primer on high-stakes police interrogations rounds out the episode, providing useful understanding of what goes on behind those closed doors.

Listeners are encouraged to follow upcoming developments as trials and appeals progress, with the Dateline team promising continued updates.

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Transcript

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[Andrea Canning]

Maybe it's time to turn up the.

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[Andrea Canning]

Hey, good morning. It's the start of another busy day here at 30 Rockefeller Center. Well, let's just jump right in. Our DATELINE team is catching up on breaking crime news.

[KPMG Announcer]

He took the stand, insisting throughout that.

[Andrea Canning]

He did not kill his wife because he is afraid of blood.

[KPMG Announcer]

It would be kind of big news.

[Andrea Canning]

If she did get a new trial.

[Brad Davis]

We have interrogation footage of the actual guy taking a Polygraph.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's August 21st and here's what's on our docket. Thirteen years after a UNC student was found murdered in her bedroom, the man accused of killing her raises new questions about evidence collected at the crime scene.

[Mike Nardi]

Police took a swab of a 2 inch long blood stain from the scene, but according to the defense, it was never tested.

[Andrea Canning]

In DATELINE Roundup, the latest from the trial of Donna Adelson, the Florida grandmother accused of masterminding a murder plot. And a courtroom surprise at the sentencing of former Major League Baseball pitcher Dan Serafini.

[Brad Davis]

He got some new attorneys and they then filed a motion asking for a new trial.

[Andrea Canning]

Plus, you see them in most DATELINE episodes, police interrogations. An expert gives us a scoop on how investigators prepare.

[Kristen Barnett]

You may have an ace in your pocket, so to speak, basically irrefutable evidence. You'll want to reveal that last.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're heading to a Georgia courtroom where a teenager who posted on TikTok grieving her murdered mom and stepdad, is now facing charges of killing them. On February 20th of this year, a teenager named Sarah Grace Patrick called 911. Her mother, Kristen Brock, and her stepfather had been shot dead in their home.

[Kristen Barnett]

From the very moment the 911 call.

[KPMG Announcer]

Was received, a relentless investigation began.

[Andrea Canning]

That is the spokesperson for the Carroll County Sheriff's Office at a press conference last month. While investigators did their work, Sarah Grace took to social media, posting photos of herself in tears, mascara running down her face. She also sent messages to people who post about crime, asking for help publicizing her parents case. Which is why what happened next surprised so many today. We can confirm that an arrest has.

[KPMG Announcer]

Been made in the case. Kristen Brock's 17 year old daughter Sarah.

[Andrea Canning]

Grace Patrick has been taken into custody.

[KPMG Announcer]

And charged with two counts of murder and two counts of aggravated assault.

[Andrea Canning]

On Tuesday, Sarah Grace went before a judge in Carrollton, Georgia for a bond hearing. And in that courtroom the two sides of her family completely disagreed over whether or not she should be released before her trial. Rebecca. Rebecca Leftwich, managing editor of the local paper the Times Georgian was there and she joins us now to tell us what she heard. Hi Rebecca, thank you so much for being here.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

Thank you for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Kristin and James Brock, the victims. James goes by Jamie. They had a five year old daughter and also Sarah Grace. They all lived together.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

They did.

[Andrea Canning]

What is the sheriff's office saying then about you know, who found the bodies? Can you take us through that?

[Rebecca Leftwich]

Of course. They were very tight lipped for a very long time because the, the investigation I guess was going like gangbusters behind the scenes. And my understanding is that the five old went in, found her parents, told her sister and Sarah Grace then called 911.

[Andrea Canning]

Both Kristen and Jamie had been shot multiple times. This is according to the arrest warrant.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

That's correct. And at the hearing, the bond hearing, one of the relatives mentioned that both Kristen and James had been shot in the head at least once.

[Andrea Canning]

This case has received national attention because Sarah Grace was posting on TikTok. There's photos of her with eye makeup running down her cheeks and then text saying I can't do this without my mom. There's one where she's making a sad face, you know, saying this can't be real on the way to my parents funeral.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

You don't want to judge somebody by the way they grieve. I would hate to have my grief picked apart some days.

[Andrea Canning]

There's one post with the victim, the mom, Kristen and her voice is on it. Snowing.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

It'S what. But at the bottom it has a GoFundMe link which it just seemed a strange place to stick a GoFundMe link because it was a very sentimental and very sweet video.

[Andrea Canning]

According to people behind some popular true crime accounts like allegedly reportedly and true crime mama Sarah Grace was even reaching out to them.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

So it appears that about a month before Sarah Grace's arrest she reached out to a tick tocker who goes by allegedly reportedly to ask for help investigating her par parents. Open case y'.

[Andrea Canning]

All. This is Sarah Grace and she messaged me back on June 3rd and just said, search up Brock case. She was asking for me to cover the case and I did. So I get requests like that all the time. So that is a screenshot of me covering it and where she said, thank you. And as of today, July 8, 2025, she was arrested. Why would you ask me to cover a case where you are going to get arrested for taking your parents lives? So what led to Sarah Grace's arrest?

[Rebecca Leftwich]

Well, they won't say when. Ashley Hussey from the Carroll County Sheriff's Office, when she led the press conference, there was some mention of how a lot of it took place electronically and that they called in other agencies. She said there's a mountain of evidence. That is the exact phrase that she used.

[Andrea Canning]

She's being charged as an adult even though she's 17. She is Sarah Grace's biological father. DJ Patrick has spoken out about this.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

He has, and so has the grandfather.

[Andrea Canning]

D.J. told Newsweek. I know 100% of my heart that Sarah's innocent. She would never do this. And Sarah Grace's grandfather, her mom's dad, spoke to a local Fox station and Court tv and he said, quote, nothing puts the gun in her hand. They don't have the gun.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

That may be true, but I'm not sure that without seeing all of the evidence that you could say that with any sort of authority. I don't blame him for saying that. I feel like he's going to defend that grandchild because I would. You would. We all would.

[Andrea Canning]

Rebecca. Other family members aren't as supportive as Sarah Grace's father and grandfather. Let's talk about this hearing that happened on Tuesday. Some of the family of Sarah Grace's stepfather testified.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

Every night I lie awake, unable to sleep. Her family maintains that she is innocent. And given her manipulative behavior, I believe she may attempt to flee. The one thing that came out that I think surprised me just a little bit was these people are genuinely scared of this girl. They are afraid that she will hurt them if she gets out of jail. If the defendant can kill her own parents in such a violent, violent manner, I fear for my own safety.

[Andrea Canning]

Sarah Grace turned herself in but has yet to enter a plea. Her defense attorney called a number of character witnesses on her behalf. Of course, they're trying to get her out before trial.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

Yes, they want her back where they can take care of her is what they said. And she did have quite a few people from different areas of her life. She had a teenage friend that she's had since middle school. And her mother, she is not a threat to anyone.

[Mike Nardi]

She is deeply loved and supported by.

[Andrea Canning]

My family, by me and her own family. I truly believe she deserves a chance to be home surrounded by those who care about her.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

They had the pastor of the church where they all attend or attended, and he's been going and seeing her and praying with her. That was a big thing, you know, that the church family would support her however they needed to.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, I know there were a lot of people, you know, some had on T shirts that read I stand with Sarah Grace. Letters were written that she's a, you know, normal, typical teenager, loved in her community. What did the judge ultimately decide?

[Rebecca Leftwich]

After hearing both sides, the judge denied bail, denied bond. His reasoning was that the prosecutors had proved that she was a flight risk because the the side of the family, they called it the Nolan side of the family, Kristin's maiden name. That they had the means to theoretically get her out of town and not bring her back.

[Andrea Canning]

And I know that the judge mentioned specifically the state's argument that Sarah Grace might influence or manipulate witnesses. This is going to court next on September 22nd. And there's actually a trial date set.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

Yes. If there are no continuances, then the trial is supposed to start on January 5th.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. So that is, I guess, what the judge called speedy justice. Right.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

That's exactly what he said. And I do believe that part of that he said was out of a concern for her, that she's 17 years old in an adult prison and being isolated from the general population. Right, right.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, Rebecca, thank you so much. What a disturbing.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up, the man accused of killing a UNC Chapel Hill student 13 years ago wants new testing of evidence from the crime scene. His defense says it could point to someone else.

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[Andrea Canning]

September 6, 2012 was a busy day in the life of UNC Chapel Hill student Faith Hedgepeth. The 19 year old went to a rush event for a sorority she was hoping to join, put in some study time at the library, and that night went to a nightclub with her roommate. The next morning, she was found beaten to death in her bedroom. On her bed there was a note that read, I'm not stupid, bitch Jealous. At first, investigators believed the note might be a clue that her killer was someone she knew. But nine years later, when they finally announced an arrest in the case, the accused man, Miguel Salguero Olivares, seemed to have no connection to Faith. He has been charged with first degree murder as well as first degree burglary and sexual offense. He has yet to enter a plea. Now, in a series of recent court filings, his defense team has asked for new testing of crime scene evidence to see if it can reveal who was really there that night. Dateline producer Mike Nardi is here to tell us more. Mike, thanks for coming back on the podcast.

[Mike Nardi]

Thanks for having me, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. So to start, why don't you just tell us a little bit about who Faith was.

[Mike Nardi]

She had Native American ancestry and she was part of the Hallowah Saponi American Indian tribe, which is based in North Carolina. She was a biology major at UNC Chapel Hill. Her loved ones described her as constantly smiling, someone who loved to joke, and she had dreams of being a doctor. So it was a huge shock, needless to say, for her family when this happened.

[Rebecca Leftwich]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

So Mike, what did police initially think when they investigated this crime?

[Mike Nardi]

Well, you touched upon it when you mentioned that note. They thought it was someone close to Faith and there was DNA left behind at the scene. It was a bloody scene and they knew she'd been sexually assaulted. There was a wine bottle and a bottle of that they got DNA off of.

[Andrea Canning]

So when we're talking about DNA, are we talking about Faith's DNA. Are we talking about unknown DNA?

[Mike Nardi]

Unknown, unknown DNA. So they were. They were thinking, this is our killer. Find the owner of this DNA. Find who it is. That's our killer.

[Andrea Canning]

So let's talk about her roommate. She was the one who found Faith's body and called 911. What do we know about her roommate and their relationship?

[Mike Nardi]

So her name is Karina Rosario. And they were. They were really good friends. They met as freshmen and Faith had temporarily moved in with Karina before the start of the school year while she was waiting to move into her own apartment.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so Karina told the police that she was at a club with Faith before she was killed. What does she say happened after the club when they came home?

[Mike Nardi]

So Karina said they went back to their apartment. And then she says she got picked up by a friend around 4:30 in the morning, leaving Faith by herself. And that's the last time anyone saw Faith alive. Karina came back to the apartment, she said, around 11am and that's when she found Faith's body and called 911.

[Andrea Canning]

According to a search warrant, Karina's former boyfriend quickly became a person of interest in the case.

[Mike Nardi]

Why? That's right. Karina's ex boyfriend is a man named Eric Jones. And by all accounts, he did not like Faith. There were witnesses that said he actually said he was going to kill Faith if he and Karina did not get back together. And in the summer of 2012, Jones actually broke into the apartment that Karina was living in at the time. And Karina filed for a domestic violence protection order against Jones. But documents show that, you know, they looked at Jones, they took his DNA, they searched his car, in his apartment, and most importantly, his DNA was not a match at the scene. Almost a decade later, when Oliveris is finally arrested and charged with the murder, Eric Jones told our NBC affiliate wral, I felt a huge burden off my chest. And that he hoped Faith's family could get justice. Are you confident that you will not be charged?

[Brad Davis]

100%. 100%.

[Mike Nardi]

I'm not gonna say I knew this day was gonna come. I pray for it.

[Andrea Canning]

So how did they land on Oliveris?

[Mike Nardi]

It came as a complete surprise to everyone. Certainly law enforcement has not mentioned any connection between Oliveris and Faith. But the warran that investigators used ancestry technology to help identify him. He'd been charged with a dwi and they took a sample of his DNA during that traffic stop and they matched it to the DNA collected at the apartment and in the rape kit. You know, there's gonna be a lot of expert testimony at the trial. So we'll see what the defense can say about that DNA evidence.

[Andrea Canning]

His defense has recently filed several motions and they argue that more testing needs to be done on evidence from the crime scene.

[Mike Nardi]

Yeah, in the filing, they note that police took a swab of a 2 inch long blood stain from the scene. But according to the defense's motion, it was never tested to see if it contained DNA from someone other than Faith. So according to the defense, the friend who picked up Karina from the apartment said he noticed blood on her finger when she got in the car and asked her about it. He said Karina said she didn't know where it came from. The defense now wants to depose that friend, saying he's a critical witness.

[Andrea Canning]

Has the defense might directly implicated Karina in this murder or are they just trying to offer up alternate theories here?

[Mike Nardi]

Yeah, no, the defense hasn't said explicitly in their motion that they think Karina was involved in the murder. But what they are doing is calling the prosecution's theory into question. They seem to be implying that the blood on Karina's finger could have belonged to Faith, and if that's the case, that the murder could have happened while Karina was still in the apartment. Now, it's important to note that Karina has never been charged with a crime in this case. She's never been accused of wrongdoing. She has not commented on the filing.

[Andrea Canning]

Do we know what the next steps are, when the next hearing is going to be in this?

[Mike Nardi]

You know, there was supposed to be a hearing in October that has been canceled. So hopefully something will be scheduled soon and the case will continue to move forward.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, thank you so much, Mike, for bringing us this update.

[Mike Nardi]

Thanks for having me, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, it's time for DATELINE roundup. We've got the latest courtroom drama in the trial of Florida grandmother Donna Adelson. And the sentencing of former major league baseball pitcher Dan Serafini is stopped in its tracks. Plus, an inside look at police interrogations and what tactics investigators use to get closer to the truth.

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is DATELINE producer Brad Davis. Hey Brad.

[Brad Davis]

Hey, good to see you.

[Andrea Canning]

For our first story, we are off to Tallahassee, Florida where trial is finally getting started for Donna Adelson, the 75 year old woman prosecutors say helped orchestrate a murder for hire plot to kill her former son in law, FSU law professor Dan Markel. She has pleaded not guilty to charges of first degree murder, conspiracy and solicitation. Brad, what is the latest there?

[Brad Davis]

Yeah, down here on Monday it was something interesting. The day before her trial was to start, the judge held an emergency hearing to review a request from Donna's daughter Wendy Adelson, who was married to Dan Markell. Donna's defense team had previously issued a subpoena to have Wendy testify, but Wendy asked the judge to quash the subpoena because it wouldn't provide her with immunity for her testimony. And in the hearing on Monday, the judge said yes, the subpoena is quashed so Wendy won't have to testify for the defense.

[Andrea Canning]

Brad, will we hear from Wendy at all during the trial?

[Brad Davis]

This doesn't mean she won't testify. She will be called by the state as a prosecution witness and she will get what's called use immunity for that testimony and the defense can question her on cross examination if they like.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so Donna's trial is officially underway. How does Donna seem?

[Brad Davis]

She, you know, looked sort of cowering with her lawyers you know, sort of sitting quietly. She's wearing a sweater because it's really cold in that courtroom. I was cold, so I don't blame her. So it'll be interesting to see, you know, how, how everyone perceives her as this, this goes on.

[Andrea Canning]

And Brad will, will continue to talk to you throughout the trial. For our next story, we're headed to Auburn, California for news in the case of Dan Serafini. He is the former major league baseball player who was found guilty in July of shooting his in laws, Gary Spore and Wendy Wood. Gary was killed in the attack. And Brad, what is happening there with that, that sentencing?

[Brad Davis]

Well, in the lead up to his scheduled sentencing on Monday, Serafini filed some big motions. He got some new attorneys, and they then filed a motion asking for a new trial on the basis of juror misconduct. With that, they pointed to an interview three jurors did with our NBC affiliate KCRA in the days after the trial ended.

[Andrea Canning]

And we, we have some of that interview.

[KPMG Announcer]

I couldn't find a single piece of.

[Andrea Canning]

Evidence that made me stop and go.

[KPMG Announcer]

Oh, maybe it wasn't him.

[Kristen Barnett]

I was the one who had to.

[Natural Cycles Announcer]

Sign the verdict forms.

[Kristen Barnett]

And there was a shaky moment. It's real.

[Andrea Canning]

So the defense didn't explain in their filing exactly how those interviews proved your misconduct took place. And in a response to those filings, the district attorney pointed out it's perfectly legal for jurors to do interviews after a trial. But even so, the judge made a surprising ruling. Right, Brady?

[Brad Davis]

Yeah. On Monday, the judge granted Sierra Feeney's motion to pursue a new trial. I recognize the difficulty of all of you who have come to see the proceedings, but this is how it needs to operate. We need to ensure for both sides to process. So Serafini wasn't sentenced as planned. There's going to be a hearing in late October for the judge to hear arguments about a possible new trial. And if the judge grants that motion, Serafini's case will go back to court. If the judge denies it, he'll be sentenced immediately.

[Andrea Canning]

What was the response in court to that ruling?

[Brad Davis]

The victim's older daughter, Adrienne Spohr, she was silent, but she did look disappointed. Meanwhile, her sister, Dan's wife, Erin Spoor, who testified in his offense at trial, she's filed for divorce from him and was not present at the sentencing.

[Andrea Canning]

And for our final story, Brad, we're headed to Connecticut for an update in a case we've covered extensively here at Dateline. The murdered mom of five, Jennifer Dulos, she disappeared in May of 2019, while in the throes of a custody battle with her estranged husband Fotus Doulos Fotus was arrested for Jennifer's suspected murder, but he died by suicide while awaiting trial. This news is about Fotus girlfriend at the time, Michelle Troconis.

[Brad Davis]

That's right. Michelle Troconis was found guilty last year of conspiring to murder Jennifer Doulos. She's currently serving a 14 and a half year sentence for that. But she's been working to appeal her conviction. And last week a judge issued a big ruling in that effort.

[Andrea Canning]

What was the ruling?

[Brad Davis]

Well, Troconis has been arguing since last September that her former attorney provided ineffective counsel. She said he didn't properly prepare her before she spoke to police when they were looking for Jennifer Doulos. Trukonus says that is enough to warrant her conviction being vacated. That previous attorney of hers, Andrew Bowman, has denied the accusations, but a judge last week ruled that Troconis petition could move forward to a trial in January.

[Andrea Canning]

So if a jury finds that there was ineffective representation, Michelle Troconis could possibly get her conviction overturned, right?

[Brad Davis]

That's right.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, well, we will make sure to check back in and see where all that goes. Thanks for all these updates, Brad.

[Mike Nardi]

Sure. Thanks, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Police interviews are at the heart of nearly every DATELINE episode and can be a make or break part of any investigation. For our last story, we wanted to find out more about what methods investigators rely on to extract information from a suspect even when they don't want to talk. Our next guest, Kristen Barnett, spent hundreds of hours in the interview room during her time with the U.S. air Force Office of Special Investigations. And today she's going to give us a primer on the techniques she used to get closer to the truth. Welcome, Kristen.

[Kristen Barnett]

Thank you so much, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

So let's start from the top. What exactly is the goal of an interrogation?

[Kristen Barnett]

The goal of an interrogation is actually not just to get a confession. You want to get to the facts of what happened. So what you're really doing is trying to find the truth of your entire case.

[Andrea Canning]

And do you have all different kinds of personalities coming in? Right. You have the ones that are tough and won't say anything and just are angry to be there. And then you have probably ones that don't stop talking.

[Kristen Barnett]

Absolutely. And that's why I always like doing a baseline interview first. That's where you'll sort of be able to analyze their behavior and see what kind of person they are, see how they respond to questions, see how they Respond to your attempts at rapport building. From there, you can kind of adjust and even maybe sort of call it for the day, get more evidence if your investigation is still at that point, and then come back later with a much more thorough interview.

[Andrea Canning]

A question I often ask detectives before an interrogation even happens is what was your strategy going in with the suspect or the person of interest?

[Kristen Barnett]

One of the methods that I always found particularly helpful was going in with a game plan to present almost a justification for why they did what they did. And with certain cases, this is easier than others. So for example, if they, they pass counterfeit checks and say if they have kids going into college, you can say, it kind of makes sense why you might want to pass these counterfeit checks because you need to pay for your kids college tuition. Again, that's just an example. And most of them are frankly sort of people pleasers, sort of someone that wants to give investigators and interrogators the information they're looking for. Now, if you do have a subject who's different from that and it's sort of confrontational, that's where you can go with, with a more confrontational approach yourself.

[Andrea Canning]

And is there, do you think about what evidence you want to reveal during that interrogation? I mean, sometimes you can be showing too many cards.

[Kristen Barnett]

Absolutely. So you may have an ace in your pocket, so to speak, with one piece of evidence, say it's CCTV footage of the subject going into the bank and coming out with a bag of money. Obviously it won't be that obvious, but basically irrefutable evidence, you'll want to reveal.

[Andrea Canning]

That probably last Kristen, you brought up, you know, building that rapport with the person you're interrogating. What else can you do to kind of disarm that person? I guess.

[Kristen Barnett]

So the interview location is really important as well. So for victim interviews, local police departments, state, federal agencies, for the most part, all have this ability to hold the victim interview in what we would call at least anyway, in the military, a soft room. So it's a room that's more warmly lit, has couches, tissue boxes, water, and the couches and chairs are in a light, less aggressive position as opposed to a subject interview room where the hardback chairs are facing each other. They're close, so you're more in their space. So the layout of the room and how things are positioned actually makes a big difference in throwing someone off balance.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, the white hot spotlight.

[Kristen Barnett]

Right? Exactly, exactly.

[Andrea Canning]

What happens if they just won't crack?

[Kristen Barnett]

That's where you want to be strategic about the breaks you take. So you may want to leave the room for up to an hour almost. You can have them sit there and wait in terms of a subject and become more and more comfortable, be more and more in their own head and maybe think about what's going on here and things at stake.

[Andrea Canning]

What do you think the key is? And I know every case is different, but to getting a confession, I think.

[Kristen Barnett]

That really comes back down to that relationship you've established with the person sitting across from you. Keep them talking.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes people just want to get it off their chest.

[Kristen Barnett]

Exactly.

[Andrea Canning]

And then on the flip side of that, any lawyer is going to tell you to keep your mouth shut if you're in an interrogation room, right?

[Kristen Barnett]

Yes. That's pretty much tip number one. If you're called to be questioned by law enforcement in a subject interrogation matter, probably best to retain a lawyer.

[Andrea Canning]

Kristin? Yeah. Thank you so much for giving us this glimpse into what goes on in the interview room.

[Kristen Barnett]

Absolutely. No problem.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of dateline True Crime Weekly. My friend and colleague Blaine Alexander will be here next week. And coming up this Friday on dateline, Blaine has a classic episode. After a woman is found dead in a house fire, investigators quickly learn the flames didn't kill her. She was murdered. But the identity of her killer remains a mystery for 30 years until a witness makes a shocking confession.

[Mike Nardi]

That's when I, I said, what's going on? And she couldn't not tell me.

[Andrea Canning]

Watch justice for Joy this Friday at 9, 8 Central. And one last thing before we go. We wanted to remind you that DATELINE is hitting the road next month and we'd love for you to join us. On Sunday, September 28, the whole team will be in Nashville for DATELINE Live. It's a first of a kind event featuring onstage panels, audience Q&As and a VIP reception. Tickets are on sale now at datelinenbc.com event. You can also find a link in the description of this episode. Thanks for listening. DATELINE True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kurloff. Production and fact checking helped by Mackenzie Matwick and Terry Dickerson. Veronica Mazzaka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. All right. Anything else? Okay, thank you.

[Mike Nardi]

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