A verdict in the Colorado dentist trial. An epidemic of teen violence in a Phoenix suburb. Plus, Ghislaine Maxwell and the Epstein files.

Summary

Dateline: True Crime Weekly – Episode Summary

Release Date: July 31, 2025
Host: Andrea Canning
Produced by: Franny Kelly, Katie Ferguson, Brittany Morris
Episode Title: A verdict in the Colorado dentist trial. An epidemic of teen violence in a Phoenix suburb. Plus, Ghislaine Maxwell and the Epstein files.

---

1. Verdict in the Colorado Dentist Trial

Overview:
The episode opens with Andrea Canning delving into the culmination of the high-profile trial of James Craig, a Colorado dentist accused of murdering his wife, Angela Craig. Over the course of three weeks, the courtroom drama unfolded, leading to a unanimous guilty verdict.

Prosecution’s Case:
Michelle Madigan, a DATELINE producer present at the trial, details how the prosecution built its case around James Craig’s alleged infidelities and the circumstantial evidence of poisoning. Key pieces of evidence included:

• Surveillance Footage: "The family had eight cameras in their home, and the investigators reviewed over 1,000 hours of this footage..." (02:06)

• Chemical Evidence: James was accused of poisoning Angela with potassium cyanide and tetrahydrozoline found in eyedrops. "He pleaded not guilty to murder and to charges that he attempted to launch a murder-for-hire plot from behind bars." (00:57)

Defense’s Strategy:
The defense, choosing not to call any witnesses, focused on portraying Angela Craig as someone who took her own life. They highlighted Angela’s journal entries expressing feelings of hopelessness. "Angela took her own life," the defense maintained, suggesting it was a mutual decision under duress. (04:23)

Notable Quotes:

• Tom Winter remarks on James’s motives: "This guy didn't want the reputational consequences associated with divorce... Much better to be the grieving widower, get the sympathy." (06:16)
• Angela’s daughter, Miriam, emotionally states: "I was supposed to be able to trust my dad. He was supposed to be my hero and instead he'll forever be the villain in my book." (09:08)

Verdict and Sentencing:
On Wednesday afternoon, the jury found James Craig guilty of first-degree murder and additional charges related to murder-for-hire and evidence tampering. During sentencing, Angela’s family delivered heart-wrenching statements, underscoring the profound impact of the crime. The judge sentenced Craig to life in prison without the possibility of parole, along with over 30 additional years for related charges. "Craig unleashed a path of destruction as wide as a tornado and just as devastating." (09:58)

---

2. Epidemic of Teen Violence in Gilbert, Arizona

Overview:
Transitioning to Arizona, Andrea Canning explores the surge in teen violence in Gilbert, a suburb once renowned for its safety. The tragic murder of 16-year-old Preston Lord has cast a spotlight on this growing issue.

The Preston Lord Case:
Preston Lord was brutally beaten by a group known as the “Gilbert Goons” during a house party in October 2023. The assault, captured partially on video, led to Preston’s death a few days later. Seven individuals, predominantly teenagers, were charged in connection with his murder.

Developments in the Case:

• Legal Proceedings: As of the episode’s release, one defendant, William Owen Hines, has pleaded guilty to manslaughter and received a 12-year sentence. "The tragic and senseless violence that took my son's life has devastated our family..." (14:05)

• Ongoing Trial: The remaining six defendants face trial scheduled for January next year. Defense attorneys have requested an extension due to the extensive evidence, including over 2,000 pages and 600 digital files under review.

Community Impact and Legislative Response:

• The violence has persisted despite high-profile cases, with recent altercations continuing the trend. In response, Arizona enacted "Preston's Law" to strengthen penalties for group attacks, categorizing assaults by three or more as felony offenses. "It is the state's hope that this sends a message to people who are instigating this violence." (16:35)

Notable Quotes:

• Preston’s mother shares her anguish: "One day I had a happy and healthy 16-year-old son and the next day I saw him lifeless in a hospital bed." (14:21)
• Witness testimony highlights the brutality: "Talon Renner was like... pounces on him and punches him like that... I saw him begin to go down." (15:00)

---

3. Ghislaine Maxwell and the Epstein Files

Overview:
The latter part of the episode shifts focus to Ghislaine Maxwell, recently convicted of sex trafficking young women for Jeffrey Epstein. The discussion centers on her latest interactions with federal prosecutors and the much-contested Epstein files.

Ghislaine Maxwell’s Background: Tom Winter provides a comprehensive background on Maxwell, outlining her role as Epstein’s close associate and co-conspirator in recruiting underage girls for sex trafficking. "Maxwell eventually met Jeffrey Epstein through social circles and the two of them started spending time together." (18:42)

Recent Developments:

• Meeting with Deputy Attorney General: Maxwell met with Deputy AG Todd Blanche for nine hours over two days. This unprecedented meeting has raised questions about the potential release of powerful names linked to Epstein. "Maxwell's own attorney has said that she was asked a number of different names... about 100 names came up in the course of their discussion." (22:50)

• Credibility Concerns: Prosecutors have long questioned Maxwell’s honesty, citing instances like her use of a fake name and attempts to evade authorities. "Prosecutors repeatedly pointed out the times that she, they believe, was not truthful with them." (23:27)

The Epstein Files:

• Contents and Calls for Release: The Epstein files encompass Palm Beach PD investigations, federal FBI records, and civil litigation documents, totaling thousands of pages. There is significant public demand for the release of these federal investigative files to uncover potential connections with high-profile individuals. "The Epstein files are a couple of different things... But the Epstein files that we really haven't seen are the federal investigative files." (21:11)

• Speculation on Names: While many speculate about the inclusion of names like Bill Clinton and Donald Trump, Tom Winter expresses skepticism about the lack of credible allegations emerging so far. "We have not heard that so far. So we could get a lot more names, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's something there." (24:13)

Notable Quotes:

• Virginia Giuffre’s statement on Maxwell’s recruitment: "Ghislaine was doing the same things that she asked me to do for him while touching me in my private areas as well." (20:33)
• Andrea Canning emphasizes the public's curiosity: "First of all, what do people even mean when they talk about these Epstein files?" (20:00)

---

Conclusion

Andrea Canning wraps up the episode by teasing upcoming stories, including a personal tragedy involving a beloved teacher and the family's harrowing experiences. The episode masterfully interweaves multiple true crime narratives, providing listeners with in-depth analysis, emotional testimonies, and expert insights.

Final Remarks:

• Upcoming Story Teaser: "Coming up, this Friday on Dateline, my story about a beloved teacher murdered in her own home while members of her family slept." (25:55)
• Credits: The episode acknowledges the production team, including producers, associate producers, and sound designers, highlighting the collaborative effort behind each story.

---

For those interested in exploring these gripping true crime stories further, episodes of Dateline: True Crime Weekly are available for free, with an option to subscribe to Dateline Premium for an ad-free experience.

---

Timestamps Reference:

• 00:57 - Introduction to James Craig’s trial
• 02:06 - Surveillance footage details
• 04:23 - Defense’s portrayal of Angela Craig
• 06:16 - Tom Winter on James Craig’s motives
• 09:08 - Miriam Craig’s emotional statement
• 09:58 - Verdict announcement
• 14:05 - Preston Lord’s father’s statement
• 14:21 - Preston’s mother’s testimony
• 15:00 - Witness account of Preston’s assault
• 16:35 - Discussion on Preston’s Law
• 18:42 - Ghislaine Maxwell’s background
• 20:33 - Virginia Giuffre’s accusation
• 21:11 - Explanation of the Epstein files
• 22:50 - Details on Maxwell’s meeting with Deputy AG
• 23:27 - Concerns about Maxwell’s credibility
• 24:13 - Speculation on names in Epstein files
• 25:55 - Teaser for upcoming story

---

This summary captures the essential discussions and insights from the July 31, 2025 episode of Dateline: True Crime Weekly, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Andrea]

It's gonna be really hot, right?

[Tom]

Pretty hot today and really hot tomorrow.

[Andrea Canning]

It's the start of another workday for the DATELINE team.

[Andrea]

The prosecutor speaking out was on nightly. Last night was on today.

[Andrea Canning]

Today our producers are catching up on breaking crime news.

[Andrea]

Somebody killed them and somebody's on the run.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's July 31st, and here's what's on our docket. An old story that's come roaring back into the news, the Epstein files and what convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell might have to say.

[Tom Winter]

Now, obviously, she doesn't want to say something that could land her in worse trouble than she's already in.

[Andrea Canning]

In Arizona, newly revealed evidence in the case of a 16 year old beaten to death after a house party. It's a crime that has galvanized a community. Some of the accused are part of a group called the Gilbert Goons.

[Andrea]

A lot of these kids were high school students being attacked by their classmates.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, the trial of Colorado dentist James Craig, accused of poisoning his wife Angela, came to a swift conclusion over the last three weeks. The prosecution argued that James Craig poisoned his wife Angela with potassium cyanide and tetrahydrozoline, a chemical found in eyedrops. He pleaded not guilty to murder and to charges that he attempted to launch a murder for hire plot from behind bars. Throughout the trial, Craig's defense has maintained that Angela took her own life. And on Monday, the defense rested without calling a single witness. Both sides made their closing arguments on Tuesday, and then the case was in the hands of the jury. I went to Colorado and was on the scene as the verdict came down. But first, DATELINE producer Michelle Madigan is back to tell us about the final days of the trial. Michelle, thanks for joining us.

[Michelle Madigan]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, Michelle, so let's back up to the end of the prosecution's case. They had pointed to Craig's numerous infidelities as motive, and they played video from surveillance cameras around the couple's home. So jurors got to see for themselves what the relationship between husband and wife was like.

[Michelle Madigan]

The family had eight cameras in their home, and the investigators reviewed over 1,000 hours of this footage from mid February to March of 2023 when Angela died. And the prosecution then called their lead detect, Bobby Jo Olson, back to the stand to walk the jurors through this video. There was one camera in the kitchen that recorded audio and video, and it just captures these conversations at the time that the couple had.

[Andrea Canning]

So Definitely an insight into their relationship that we don't often get to see in cases like this. You know, usually we hear from people, but we don't actually see it. What did these videos show?

[Michelle Madigan]

So some of the clips were just everyday conversations. They were navigating fights between kids, what they want for breakfast, talking about needing to go to the dentist, things like that. But then there's this footage that the prosecution argued was more sinister. This was a clip that showed James in the kitchen microwaving something and mixing a drink. And there was a cup with a pink lid. That becomes eventually a piece of evidence, because then 40 minutes later, Angela's seen in the video drinking from it. We know a few hours later, Angela texted James Craig she wasn't feeling well. So they're trying to use this video to bring it all together.

[Andrea Canning]

So the defense got a chance to cross examine the lead detective, what happened there.

[Michelle Madigan]

So this was key to their case. Right. Even before the cross examination, the defense was pointing out that the clips that they were showing to the jurors skipped around and that there were time lapses and we're not getting the full picture of what happened with this family, you know, on cross. They also argue that a huge amount of media attention on the case received right from the beginning, could have compromised their investigation. They talk about these blinders that the detective had and that the investigation had going into this case. The defense then spent time going through some entries of Angela's actual journal, which her sister had given to investigators. They read passages where she described feeling alone, unloved and hopeless, seemingly pointing to her state of mind in the years prior to her death.

[Andrea Canning]

The prosecution also walked through a timeline for the case, a timeline that was created by James Craig, and he actually called it Timeline in his phone. He did.

[Michelle Madigan]

This was a note that was found in his iPhone called Timeline. And prosecutors believe this is his first written statement about what he says happened to Angela. You know, in it, he admits to multiple affairs. He says he asked for divorce, then writes that Angela said she did not want a divorce and that she was going to end her life. And he agreed to help her research poisons and purchase some, including the eye drops.

[Andrea Canning]

So in his writings, Craig was saying basically that he went along with it, but that it was all Angela's idea.

[Michelle Madigan]

That's right. In the note, he said that they agreed he would prepare the dosages for her, but that she would take them for herself, and that they agreed that they needed to put on a show that they were still a happy couple.

[Andrea Canning]

Wow. Okay. So the defense, when it was their turn, they didn't call any witnesses and rested immediately. You know, we see that from time to time. It happens when the defense feels like they can try the case through cross examination.

[Michelle Madigan]

And that's what they did here. I mean, they cross examined most of the prosecution's almost 50 witnesses. We were curious if Dr. Craig would take the stand, but he did not.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, so both sides then had their opportunity to make their closing arguments. What did each side focus on?

[Michelle Madigan]

The prosecution from the beginning said Angela Craig was innocent. She had no part in her death. They painted the picture of James Craig as someone who was constantly cheating on his wife, but did not want the divorce because of his financial situation and the public image.

[Tom]

This guy didn't want the reputational consequences associated with divorce. He didn't want to be the guy who left the mother of his six children to go out and chase other women. He didn't want that. Much better to be the grieving widower, get the sympathy.

[Michelle Madigan]

The prosecutor also walked through the evidence surrounding Craig's research into the poisons and those purchases he made. And he argued that in order to agree with this defense contention that Angela was suicidal, the jurors would have to believe that Angela chose to die a slow, painful death.

[Tom]

He spent 10 days killing Angela Craig. And he could have stopped on day one or day two or day 10. He kept going, kept going right until the end.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense, in their closings, they actually tried to use that video from the house to their advantage.

[Michelle Madigan]

They did. They said, yes, there's still love between James and Angela.

[Brittany Morris]

You can see the love and the tenderness and the kindness. And just some of these hours and hours of video in the home, you can see acts of kindness, of intimacy, of love, of affection.

[Michelle Madigan]

But they wanted the jury to look at this couple as a broken couple. She said the text messages show that this couple, while loving, was also broken because. And they said this, he was a cheater.

[Brittany Morris]

You know what they proved? They proved beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy was a pretty crappy husband. He cheated on his wife constantly.

[Andrea Canning]

They did.

[Brittany Morris]

They proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not faithful. But this idea that somehow this was some sort of motive, sadly, it was nothing new. Been going on for years. All of a sudden, It's a motive. 23 years later, it's a motive.

[Andrea Canning]

After closing arguments, James Craig's fate was in the hands of the jury. And on Wednesday afternoon, I was in court as they came back with a verdict.

[Judge]

We, the jury, unanimously and beyond a reasonable doubt, find the Defendant James Craig guilty of murder in the first degree.

[Andrea Canning]

The jury found James Craig guilty of first degree murder as well as guilty on all of the other charges relating to the murder for hire and tampering with evidence schemes he plotted from behind bars. After the verdict was read and a brief recess, the judge went right into the sentencing phase, something that was unusual. The jurors were invited into the courtroom to watch and it seemed most of them, if not all, accepted that invitation. Angela's family during this phase had the chance to speak. Most of her siblings got up to the podium as well as two of her six children. Here is her daughter, Miriam. I was supposed to be able to trust my dad. He was supposed to be my hero and instead he'll forever be the villain in my book. At times, James Craig became visibly emotional, sobbing in the courtroom when the judge asked if he wanted to speak. He, his family and his legal team all declined. Then the judge read the sentence. Life in prison without the possibility of parole as well as a sentence of over 30 plus additional years for the other doctor.

[Judge]

Craig unleashed a path of destruction as wide as a tornado and just as devastating. Damage to his children, damage to Angela's family, damage to his own family. None of the individuals that are here in the courtroom for the court today will ever be the same.

[Andrea Canning]

With that, the case against James Craig came to a conclusion. It has been a riveting trial and I'll be staying on the story for a future DATELINE episode. So stay, stay tuned. Up next, in a Phoenix suburb that's been terrorized by teen violence, one victim's parents make an emotional statement in court. The town of Gilbert, Arizona used to be written about as one of the safest places to raise a family in the country. That all changed in October 2023.

[Judge]

911 emergency.

[Andrea Canning]

Hey, I'm at a party.

[Witness]

There's a bunch of people. I jumped my friend and he's knocked.

[Andrea Canning]

Out on the ground. 16 year old Preston Lord was viciously beaten by a gang of young people. He died from his injuries a few days later. Seven people, most of them teenagers, were charged with his murder. And suddenly Gilbert was in the headlines for a very different reason as a place where teens were attacking other teens. In the past year, the case against Preston's alleged attackers has inched closer towards Trump trial, closely watched by a community searching for answers. Recently they got some as police interviews with witnesses were played in open court for the first time. Phoenix based DATELINE field producer Brittany Morris is here to tell us what she learned. Hey, Britney.

[Andrea]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Good to talk to you. Remind our, our listeners. Britney, what happened to Preston Lord?

[Andrea]

According to some police reports that I've read, Preston Lord and his friends, they were at an out of control house party on Halloween weekend and they were trying to leave when approached by a group of boys they did not know. One of those boys stole a gold chain from the neck of Preston's friend. And it's at this point when things started to escalate. Preston and his friends began to run away. But Preston stumbled during his escape, was beaten to the ground and left for dead. Several months later, Preston's alleged attackers, they were arrested and they all pleaded not guilty at that time.

[Andrea Canning]

It just breaks my heart for Preston's family. This is just so senseless and it's gotten a lot of attention and for more than just Preston's case.

[Andrea]

So prior to Preston's death, teens were being ambushed in parking lots, parks and outside fast food restaurants. And a lot of these kids were high school students being attacked by their classmates. One group in particular got a lot of attention for these attacks. They called themselves and were known by their victims as the Gilbert Goons. I spoke to one victim who was beaten by a group of kids he believes are part of the Gilbert Goons. He suffered a concussion and later decided to move out of the country to finish high school safely. Another teen told me he was punched in the back of the head with brass knuckles because he would not give an attacker his car keys. The most of the attacks were filmed by the assailants themselves and posted on social media to a lot of fanfare.

[Andrea Canning]

Were any of these self described Gilbert Goons involved in Preston's death?

[Andrea]

The defendants have not come forward and identified as a Gilbert Goon, at least not since their arrest. What we do know is that witnesses and tipsters told police that some of Preston's alleged attackers are known Gilbert Goons.

[Andrea Canning]

Bring us up to speed on Preston's murder case.

[Andrea]

Sure. In March this year, one of seven defendants, William Owen Hines, pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of manslaughter and was sentenced to 12 years in prison for that charge. Preston Lord's parents had very strong words for Heinz at his sentencing hearing. Here's Preston's dad, Nick.

[Tom]

The tragic and senseless violence that took my son's life has devastated our family in ways words cannot fully capture. I have no words of forgiveness to offer.

[Andrea]

And Preston's mom told the judge that her son would have been graduating soon from high school.

[Andrea Canning]

One day I had a happy and healthy 16 year old son and the next day I Saw him lifeless in a hospital bed.

[Andrea]

The family told us that this moment felt like a step forward, but at the same time, there are still six defendants left to go. And now that trial won't happen until January next year. The reason for that is the defendant's attorneys filed for an extension, citing the immense amount of evidence in this case. There are more than 2,000 pages to be read and as many as 600 digital files that they are still in the process of reviewing.

[Andrea Canning]

Some video clips from that mountain of evidence were shown at a recent hearing. What did everyone see?

[Andrea]

It was a very stunning day in the courtroom. For the first time, we saw some clips from police interviews. One witness is on tape telling the police that one of the defendants by the name of Talon Renner approached Preston Lord at that party.

[Witness]

Talon Renner was like. Like, walking behind me like this.

[Andrea]

The witness then demonstrated for the officer how he says, this defendant allegedly punched Preston in the head and, like, steps.

[Witness]

Up beside him like this and punches him like that. And then I saw. I saw him, like, go. Begin to go down. And I saw people just running all over. Like, everybody was running towards it. All I know for sure, like, God, by the way, was that talented.

[Andrea]

It's worth repeating that Talon Renner pleaded not guilty in this case.

[Andrea Canning]

Brittany, you talked about the one teenager. He's been sentenced to 12 years in prison. The other six defendants, presumably they're facing a lot of prison time if convicted. Has that had an effect on the kind of violence that led up to Preston's death?

[Andrea]

It doesn't appear that way. Over the last year, I've met with several people actively working to tackle the problem with teen violence. And those same people tell me that the violence is still very much there. I was sent a video showing a fight from earlier this month involving several girls, some just 15 and 16 years old, attacking each other in the same parking lot where many of the alleged Gilbert Goons attacks took place.

[Andrea Canning]

Why is the violence not being curbed then? With such a spotlight on this?

[Andrea]

It's definitely an ongoing conversation. Preston's law was passed. This is an Arizona state law a couple months ago. And what it does is it strengthens penalties for group attacks. Right. So any group of three or more assailants attacking a single victim faces a felony offense. And it is. It is the state's hope that this sends a message to people who are instigating this violence. There are huge ramifications.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. That is progress. Brittany, thank you so much for this update.

[Andrea]

Thank you so much, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up, Ghislaine Maxwell, who was convicted of sex trafficking young women for Jeffrey Epstein, has been talking to federal prosecutors. What could she have to say now? One of the biggest names in true crime is back in the news. Jeffrey Epstein, disgraced New York financier who took his own life in 2019 while awaiting trial on federal sex trafficking charges. Prosecutors said he operated a sex trafficking ring targeting vulnerable young women and underaged girls. And there have long been questions about what kind of secrets Epstein may have taken to the grave. Recently, both politicians and some members of the public have been demanding that the DOJ release documents related to Epstein's case. But Epstein's name isn't the only one. Back in the news, Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Tom Winter]

Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Andrea Canning]

Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell was Epstein's longtime friend and accomplice. She was arrested after his death and in 2021, convicted of sex trafficking charges. She's serving a 20 year prison sentence. Last week, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche sat down with her for nine hours of interviews over the course of two days. Here to bring us all the updates is NBC News national law enforcement and intelligence correspondent Tom Winter, who has been covering the case for years. Tom, thank you for coming back on the podcast.

[Tom Winter]

Of course, it's great to be here and unfortunately discussing still what is such a sad and difficult and delicate case.

[Andrea Canning]

Tom, give us a quick refresher on Ghislaine Maxwell. Who is she and how is she tied to Jeffrey Epstein?

[Tom Winter]

Well, Ghislaine Maxwell is a socialite and a major figure in the Palm beach circles in London, in Europe for a long time. And Maxwell eventually met Jeffrey Epstein through social circles and the two of them started spending time together. They were involved in a romantic relationship together. That's just based on people that we've talked to that have known them for a long time and also from information that was elicited at eventually her criminal trial. What she was convicted of is that effectively starting in the 1990s and carrying on into the mid 2000s is basically being a recruiter for Jeffrey Epstein of young girls, girls under the age of 18 who she was involved in what federal prosecutors describe, which is sex trafficking. She would go out and meet young girls and then they would engage in what's called grooming, the idea of getting somebody who's underage in a position where they would accept sexual contact with adult individuals.

[Andrea Canning]

In fact, Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre, who has since died by suicide, spoke to Savannah Guthrie in a DATELINE special about Ghislaine recruiting Her. Let's take a listen to that.

[Virginia Giuffre]

My dad worked at Mar a Lago, which was so cool. And he said, you know what, I can get you a summer job there. I was a locker room attendant in the spa area. I get approached by this beautiful, well spoken, well mannered woman with an English accent from Improper, and she says, I know this older gentleman who's looking for a traveling masseuse. He's super rich, he flies around everywhere.

[Michelle Madigan]

Did she say her name?

[Virginia Giuffre]

She told me her name was Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Andrea Canning]

Virginia also told Savannah this.

[Virginia Giuffre]

Ghislaine was doing the same things that she asked me to do for him while touching me in my private areas as well.

[Tom Winter]

Yeah. So, I mean, the allegations here are not just that she recruited Virginia Joffre, but in fact that she participated in some of the abuse.

[Andrea Canning]

Jeffrey Epstein. Tom has been back in the news recently after calls to release the Epstein files. There's so much curiosity. First of all, what do people even mean when they talk about these Epstein files? Is this just like a dossier of men's names? I mean, there's, you know, it's like you're imagining what would be in it. Right?

[Tom Winter]

It's thousands of pages. So the Epstein files are a couple of different things. One, there's the Palm Beach Police Department in Florida, which initiated this investigation. Think of that as column A. Column B are the federal files. So that's the FBI interview reports, the evidence that they were able to get, the flight records that they have. There are other people that flew on Epstein's plane that they were powerful people, Hollywood people, former President Bill Clinton, current President Donald Trump. Column three are all the files that have come out in civil litigation. So those are kind of the three columns, if you will, that make up the, quote, Epstein files. But the Epstein files that we really haven't seen are the federal investigative files. So that's what people have been calling for. That's what they wanted to see.

[Andrea Canning]

And as the calls to release the file get louder and louder, Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche, he requested a meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Tom Winter]

He did. And it's extraordinary that the Deputy Attorney General of the United States would request a meeting like. And the reason why I say that is I cannot recall a time in my 10 plus year career of focusing exclusively on law enforcement and these high profile investigations where the deputy Attorney General interviewed anybody. I mean, this is the boss. This is the number two of the Justice Department. Typically, Andrea would get maybe an email summary and there were other questions about who was in the room. I mean, would Blanche be the sole witness if in fact her statements could be used in a future proceeding? All sorts of technical legal stuff, but it's raised those issues.

[Andrea Canning]

So this meeting, Tom, took place over two days at a federal courthouse in Florida. Curious minds wanna know, do we have any idea what Deputy AG Blanche asked her about?

[Tom Winter]

Well, those curious minds include myself, the reporter, and we are trying to get some more information as far as what went on there. Maxwell's own attorney has said that she was asked a number of different names of probably 100 names came up in the course of their discussion, whether or not they got into any sort of specific details about crimes. It is reporting that she was given some use immunity. So basically, for the purposes of what they asked her for, she had some immunity. So obviously she doesn't want to say something that could land her in worse trouble than she's already in.

[Andrea Canning]

And federal prosecutors, they have concerns about Ghislaine Maxwell's credibility.

[Tom Winter]

That is an understatement. It was part of the original indictment. She was charged with two counts of perjury for lying in a 2016 deposition. Prosecutors repeatedly pointed out the Times that she, they believe, was not truthful with them. I mean, let's just go back to the day of her arrest. She bought a house in New Hampshire under a fake name. The FBI, they said, come out, we've got an arrest warrant for you. She tries to hide on them and then they find her cell phone wrapped in tinfoil in an effort to, they think, avoid some sort of surveillance or detection. So at every turn, they raised serious concerns in their minds about her credibility.

[Andrea Canning]

And so ultimately, do you think we'll see more transparency with the Epstein files? Do you think they'll we're gonna know what's in there and hear some names? I mean, that's all anyone talks about, right?

[Tom Winter]

You know, we keep hearing names and names and you're so right. It's what everybody talks about. Who's in there? What are the names? What's going on? Donald Trump said this week, look, do you think if my name was in there in a criminal way that it wouldn't have come out already? I think at this point, given the time, that we would have heard from somebody who would have presented credible allegations that either Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, anybody who's involved in this, that they would have said, look, look, I was forced to have sex with this high profile person and I was under the age of 18. That obviously makes it a crime. We have not heard that so far. So we could get a lot more names, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's something there.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, well, we know that you are on top of it, Tom. We appreciate it.

[Tom Winter]

Thank you, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To get ad free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to DATELINE Premium. Coming up, this Friday on Dateline, my story about a beloved teacher murdered in her own home while members of her family slept. How could you not hear your wife screaming if she's being attacked? Sounds crazy. Watch the footprint at the lake this Friday at 9, 8 Central on NBC. Thanks for listening. DATELINE True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly, Katie Ferguson and Brittany Brittany Morris. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey and Kim Flores Gaynor. Our senior producer is Alison Orr. Production and fact checking help by Terry Dickerson. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

[Virginia Giuffre]

Stay cool, everybody.

[Andrea Canning]

Bye bye.