An accused killer's surprise defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.

Summary

Dateline: True Crime Weekly – January 16, 2025

Hosted by Andrea Canning

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1. Jason Chen's Murder Trial: Surprise Defense Strategy

Overview: In a gripping turn of events in Tennessee, 24-year-old Jason Chen stands accused of murdering his 22-year-old girlfriend, Jasmine Pace. The trial, set in a Chattanooga courtroom, has garnered significant attention due to the high-profile nature of the case and the intense media coverage surrounding Jasmine's disappearance over Thanksgiving in 2022.

Key Developments:

• Opening Statements: The prosecution, led by District Attorney Cody Wabb, argued for no bond, emphasizing the potential threat Chen poses to the community. Chen pleaded not guilty to charges of first-degree murder and abuse of a corpse.

  Jay Young [03:33]: "Based on proof presented today, the community is less safe."

• Defense’s Unexpected Turn: In a surprising move, Chen's defense team introduced a voluntary manslaughter defense, claiming that Chen acted in a state of passion and provoked by Jasmine's suspected infidelity.

  Mario Garcia [06:16]: "They said he's guilty of killing her, but he's not guilty of killing her the way that the state has said."

• Prosecution’s Argument: The prosecution presented evidence of a tumultuous relationship, including a loud fight and Jasmine's subsequent disappearance. Jasmine's mother, Katrina Pace, took it upon herself to investigate, leading to the discovery of Jasmine's body in a suitcase.

  Rachel White [03:58]: "You went back in. For what? To get whatever, anything that I thought I could use to help find my daughter."

• Jury Selection: The jury, sequestered from Nashville to ensure impartiality, has been thoroughly vetted to handle the high-stakes nature of the case.

Notable Quotes:

• Mario Garcia [05:35]: "This is the suitcase in which Jason Chen stuffed the 98-pound body of Jasmine."
• Rachel White [08:32]: "She took iPad, she took notebooks. This is not the way things usually happen."

Conclusion: The trial continues to unfold with intense scrutiny on both the prosecution's solid case and the defense's unexpected plea. The courtroom atmosphere remains tense as both sides prepare for a lengthy legal battle.

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2. Natalie Cochran's Trial: From Fraud to Alleged Murder

Overview: Natalie Cochran, a pharmacist from Daniels, West Virginia, previously convicted of orchestrating a multi-million-dollar Ponzi scheme, now faces grave new charges: the alleged poisoning of her husband, Michael Cochran, with insulin. This case has evolved over several years, intertwining financial malfeasance with potential domestic murder.

Key Developments:

• Background: In September 2019, Natalie was indicted for fraud, leading to an 11-year federal prison sentence after pleading guilty. Two years later, suspicion arose around Michael's sudden death, initially ruled as natural causes due to hypoglycemia.

  Mary Jambelic [13:24]: "Michael Cochran was determined to find out [about the fraud]."

• Reopened Investigation: Investigators doubted the natural cause ruling, leading to the exhumation of Michael's body. Though initial tests found no insulin traces, subsequent examinations by a state pathologist and an endocrinologist suggested homicide caused by insulin injections.

  Mary Jambelic [16:41]: "It's the same when you have a dead body one day or 100 years dead. You need to know the context."

• Trial Proceedings: The courthouse in West Virginia buzzed with anticipation as both prosecution and defense laid out their cases. The prosecution emphasized Natalie's motive tied to her fraudulent activities and expertise in pharmaceuticals, suggesting premeditation.

  Mary Jambelic [17:11]: "The prosecution has to work with a case that does not have direct evidence. But what they do have is a defendant who is a convicted felon serving 11 years."

• Defense’s Argument: Contrarily, the defense portrayed Michael as aware of the fraudulent scheme, negating Natalie's motive to kill him. They highlighted the lack of direct evidence linking Natalie to the poisoning.

  Mary Jambelic [18:49]: "They argue Michael was well aware of the fraudulent nature of the business so Natalie would have no reason to want to kill him."

Notable Quotes:

• Mary Jambelic [15:27]: "They were unable to find insulin in Michael's body when they exhumed it months later."
• Rachel White [28:16]: "You have to have a suspicion of it so that you're making sure you look for the category of poison that you're suspicious about."

Conclusion: Natalie Cochran's trial represents a complex intersection of financial crime and alleged personal violence. As the courtroom drama unfolds, key testimonies and forensic evidence will play crucial roles in determining her fate.

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3. Dateline Roundup

A. Alec Baldwin's Lawsuit Against New Mexico Prosecutors

Overview: Alec Baldwin has taken legal action against several members of the prosecution team involved in the 2021 Rust movie set shooting, where a prop gun mishap led to the death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins.

Key Developments:

• Lawsuit Details: Baldwin filed a 73-page civil lawsuit accusing prosecutors of malicious prosecution and violation of his civil rights, alleging they conspired to harass him.

  Jay Young [22:20]: "He’s taken action."

• Prosecutors' Response: Carrie Morrissey, one of the prosecutors named in the lawsuit, stated they are prepared to defend their actions in court.

  Jay Young [22:39]: "The defendants have yet to file a response in court. But one of the prosecutors, Carrie Morrissey, told NBC News that they look forward to their day in court."

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel White [22:13]: "If this conduct does not rise to the level of bad faith, it certainly comes so near to bad faith as to show signs of, of scorching prejudice."

Conclusion: Baldwin's lawsuit adds another layer to the high-profile Rust case, with legal battles anticipated to draw significant media attention.

B. Lori Valo Debel ("Mommy Doomsday") Represents Herself in Court

Overview: Lori Valo Debel, infamously known as "Mommy Doomsday," is back in court facing new murder charges in Arizona. Notably, she is representing herself, adding a dramatic twist to her legal proceedings.

Key Developments:

• Courtroom Appearance: Debel appeared in an orange jumpsuit and handcuffs, displaying a defiant attitude as she challenged the legal system.

  Jay Young [23:47]: "She was definitely confident."

• Charges: Debel faces murder charges related to her fourth husband, Charles, and the attempted murder of her niece's ex-husband. She claims prosecutors are withholding evidence, a motion that was firmly denied by the judge.

  Jay Young [24:10]: "The judge was pretty firm with Lori, asking her why her extradition documents have anything to do with the underlying charges against her in Arizona."

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea Canning [23:31]: "Lori, thank you so much for these updates."
• Jay Young [23:57]: "And she asked for all the discovery related to her extradition from Idaho to Arizona."

Conclusion: Debel's self-representation underscores her relentless pursuit to challenge the charges against her, though legal experts remain skeptical of her chances without professional counsel.

C. Medical Examiner’s Insight on Cold Case Autopsies

Overview: Dr. Mary Jambelic, former chief medical examiner of Onondaga County, New York, shares her expertise on the challenges of determining causes of death in cold cases, emphasizing the importance of context and forensic advancements.

Key Insights:

• Assessing Historical Cases: Dr. Jambelic explains the methodological approach to examining bodies that have been deceased for extended periods, highlighting the preservation of skeletal markers of trauma.

  Rachel White [27:19]: "You have to learn how to interpret the decaying body as well as the skeletonized body because a gunshot wound, a stab one, it may leave marks on the bone that you can detect and they'll be present for many, many decades."

• Poisoning Detection: While poison can sometimes be detected post-mortem, the degradation of chemicals over time makes it increasingly difficult without prior suspicion.

  Rachel White [27:48]: "There are so many drugs and chemicals and toxins in the world. So I think the first thing with a poisoning is you have to have a suspicion of it so that you're making sure you look for the category of poison that you're suspicious about."

• Exhumations in Cold Cases: Dr. Jambelic discusses the rarity and complexity of exhuming bodies for forensic analysis, emphasizing the stringent legal requirements and the need for compelling evidence to warrant such actions.

  Rachel White [29:08]: "I don't think exhumations are that easy to occur, especially legally. There has to be a certain burden of proof of the need to do it to further the case."

Notable Quotes:

• Rachel White [28:35]: "I've been on multiple sides of that particular dilemma where my ruling may be questioned and maybe the police and I don't agree, but the medical examiner may have a reason for that determination or may not have considered the, the insulin overdose because it's a very subtle thing."
• Rachel White [29:52]: "What's really hard to get rid of is your motive. And so you have a motive to kill someone and someone suspects that, then forensics is there to figure it out."

Conclusion: Dr. Jambelic's insights shed light on the meticulous and often challenging process of solving cold cases, where advances in forensic science play a pivotal role in uncovering the truth long after the fact.

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4. Upcoming Stories

• "Deadly Mirage" with Josh: Scheduled to air this Sunday on NBC at 9/8 Central, this story delves into the mysterious death of a wealthy Georgia man and the subsequent uncovering of family secrets leading to the revelation of the killer.

• Keith Morrison's New Investigation: Premiering this Friday on NBC at 9/8 Central and available for streaming on Peacock, Morrison explores the discovery of a wealthy man's body on his estate, unraveling a web of family secrets to identify the perpetrator.

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Production Credits

• Produced by: Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson
• Associate Producers: Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey
• Senior Producer: Liz Brown Kurloff
• Production and Fact-Checking: Sara Kadir
• Digital Producer: Veronica Maseka
• Sound Designer: Rick Kwan
• Original Music: Jesse McGinty
• Head of Audio Production: Bryson Barnes
• Executive Producer: Paul Ryan
• Senior Executive Producer: Liz Cole

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Final Remarks

Dateline True Crime Weekly continues to deliver in-depth analyses and updates on some of the most compelling true crime stories across the nation. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes that promise to unearth more chilling and intriguing cases.

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For more detailed coverage and ad-free listening, subscribe to Dateline Premium.

Transcript

[Andrea Canning]

Mom.

[Rachel White]

Mom.

[Andrea Canning]

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[Unknown]

Honey, stop.

[Mario Garcia]

Mom.

[Rachel White]

I got it.

[Andrea Canning]

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[Unknown]

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[Jay Young]

Good morning.

[Andrea Canning]

You're listening in to Dateline's Morning Meeting in 30 Rockefeller Center.

[Rachel White]

That's great. Also, Tex got released.

[Jay Young]

Tex MacGyver, he's free.

[Mario Garcia]

He's out.

[Rachel White]

It's over.

[Andrea Canning]

Editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.

[Rachel White]

And she got about a $6 million payout from the perpetrators.

[Mario Garcia]

And her what was Scott's motive?

[Jay Young]

Karen, read that dog bite testimony.

[Rachel White]

It's in.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's January 16th and here's what's on our docket. In West Virginia, a small town pharmacist who made national headlines after being convicted of masterminding a multi million dollar scam is back in court for allegedly poisoning her husband.

[Mary Jambelic]

The theory is that Natalie was concerned that Michael had discovered the Ponzi scheme and was going to come forward and expose her.

[Andrea Canning]

In DATELINE Roundup. All the details from Alec Baldwin's explosive lawsuit against New Mexico prosecutors and investigators involved in the Rust trial. And Lori Valo Debel, AKA Mommy Doomsday, is back in court, this time defending herself. These are serious charges and these are serious consequences for these, Char. Plus, a former medical examiner tells us how hard it really is to get a cause of death from a body, especially a skeleton.

[Rachel White]

It's the same when you have a dead body one day or 100 years dead. You need to know the context.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're heading back to a Tennessee courtroom and a story we first told you about last week. 24 year old Jason Chen is on trial, accused of stabbing his girlfriend to death two years ago. Only now his defense team is saying she attacked him. This week we heard opening statements in a Chattanooga courtroom for Jason Chen's murder trial. He's accused of killing 22 year old Jasmine Pace. But the jury is from somewhere else. They've been Bussed in from Nashville and it's a two hour trip. They are sequestered for this trial. All of that is because when Jasmine went missing over Thanksgiving in 2022, her face was all over TV, including on our Affil @WRCB Local 3 news. Now take another good, hard look at your screen. Jasmine is about 5ft tall. She has several tattoos on her right arm and shoulder. Anyone with information on where Jasmine may be is asked to call the Chattanooga Police Department. Jasmine's body was found about a week later in a suitcase on the side of the road. By then, her boyfriend Jason had already been arrested and his face was all over the news, too. But it felt like only the prosecution's case was getting airtime. District Attorney Cody Wabb argued for no bond, calling him a. And anywhere this defendant goes, we know.

[Jay Young]

Based on proof presented today, the community is less safe.

[Andrea Canning]

Jason Chen has pleaded not guilty to charges of first degree murder and abuse of a corpse. And on Monday, the jury and Jasmine's mother, who was the first to point the finger at Jason, heard his side of the story for the first time. It was laid out during the defense's opening statement. Dateline producer Mario Garcia was there. Mario, thanks for coming on.

[Mario Garcia]

Thanks for having me, Andrew.

[Andrea Canning]

We talked on the podcast last week about this case. Remind us of the prosecution's argument.

[Mario Garcia]

The prosecution's argument is that Jasmine disappeared the night that she went to her boyfriend's house, was never heard from again. And her boyfriend, the person she was seeing at the time, was involved.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. So there were signs they had gotten in a loud fight, you know, late at night at his apartment, her neighbors heard a woman screaming. And then she drops a pin to her mom on her phone.

[Mario Garcia]

Yeah, her mom didn't see it until a couple days later. And frantic family members had already gone down the road of trying to kind of self investigate the case because they felt that police weren't helping them as much as they wanted.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, investigators weren't even the first people in Jason's apartment. Her mom, Katrina, goes to the location and starts, as you said, playing detective.

[Mario Garcia]

This family got into the apartment maybe illegally, maybe not. What Katrina said on the stand is Jasmine's father, Travis Pace, used the credit card to actually jail. Jimmy opened the door and then they went in.

[Andrea Canning]

I didn't think that actually worked. And she found Jasmine's driver's license, credit card. You know, she took some things from the apartment, including his phone.

[Mario Garcia]

She took iPad, she took notebooks. This is not the way things usually happen.

[Andrea Canning]

Was the prosecutor's Opening statement, what you expected? Were there any surprises? What do you think the tone was that they wanted to set for the jury?

[Mario Garcia]

The prosecutors came out of the gate in a way that I have not really ever seen before. It was. It was impressive.

[Rachel White]

This is the suitcase in which Jason.

[Andrea Canning]

Chin stuffed the 98 pound body of Jasmine.

[Jay Young]

That's where I'm going to begin the.

[Andrea Canning]

Story the district attorney wanted to get in front of the issue of mom breaking into Jason's apartment. You know, we got to just address the elephant in the room right away.

[Mario Garcia]

Yeah, I mean, they very craftily said, this is a distraught mother and family that did what anybody else would do.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense, they had an opening statement that I did not see coming.

[Mario Garcia]

Well, you're not the only one, Andrew.

[Andrea Canning]

In the early morning hours of November 23, 2022, Jason Chen killed Jasmine Pace.

[Mario Garcia]

They said he's guilty of killing her, but he's not guilty of killing her the way that the state has said.

[Andrea Canning]

He didn't do it with premeditation. The defense is saying voluntary manslaughter. A state of passion produced by provocation. What does the defense say happened?

[Mario Garcia]

They said they were dating in a relationship. She came over and they did what they always do. They had some wine, they smoked some weed. And then they say that his phone was in the kitchen, he was in the bedroom. His phone started making that unique pinging that Tinder sounds make. She saw that he was communicating with other women on Tinder. She got really upset. A glass and a wine bottle got broken. She came at him and he was trying to defend himself. And then he blacked out. And when he came to, she was dead. And then he panicked more and he disposed of the body.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense also indicated that Chen was worried about the shame that he would bring to his family. Jason Chan is a first generation Chinese American. His parents work at a Chinese restaurant. Very barbarian.

[Mario Garcia]

Well, you know, he is the son of immigrants and so am I. You know, there are things that happen in personal psychologies that can make somebody act in certain ways. Is that what happened here? I don't know.

[Andrea Canning]

Jason decides that he has to cover this up. He has to hide what he's done. Yeah. The prosecution's first witness was Katrina, Jasmine's mom. How was she handled by the prosecution and the defense?

[Mario Garcia]

She got up there and she held her own. She was very stern and strong and answered the questions.

[Jay Young]

And then what did you do?

[Rachel White]

I went back in. For what? To get whatever, anything that I thought I could use to help find my daughter.

[Mario Garcia]

The defense tried to Trip her up. You said the two of you or the four of you? How many was it that went in who actually used the credit card to break into the apartment?

[Andrea Canning]

You said you would do anything to bite your daughter.

[Rachel White]

Wouldn't you?

[Andrea Canning]

Of course. Okay.

[Rachel White]

That's not my daughter. Yes, I was just trying to find my daughter.

[Andrea Canning]

You perjured yourself. I thought I have it.

[Rachel White]

Perjured myself.

[Andrea Canning]

After Katrina's testimony, who else did the prosecution call?

[Mario Garcia]

They called the manager of the Walgreens. They called the manager of the Walmart places that Jason went to buy things that the prosecution says were used to cover up the crime. The law enforcement folks, the lead detective.

[Andrea Canning]

One of the things that you're learning in Tennessee is that these jurors are able to ask questions as the trial goes along.

[Rachel White]

Does the jury have any questions for investigation?

[Mario Garcia]

They have been submitting questions. And then the judge calls the prosecutors and defense attorneys up. They go over what's going to be allowed, and the judge then asks the questions of the witness before they leave the stand.

[Mary Jambelic]

The receipt from Walmart shows the stereotypes. The video shows no asparagus was purchased. Was this investigated further? And if so, relevant to the case.

[Mario Garcia]

It did not have relevancy in terms.

[Andrea Canning]

Of the arrested investigation.

[Mario Garcia]

You don't usually get to see what the jury is thinking in real time.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, normally you're just kind of looking for facial expressions, emotion, you know, anything.

[Mario Garcia]

You can sleeping, who's taking notes, you know, and the judge keeps thanking them for being such a plugged in jury. It's really fascinating.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, this is a tough one. Mario, thank you for coming back on the podcast and breaking it all down for us.

[Mario Garcia]

I'm happy to be here anytime you all want me to be.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, the long awaited trial of a West Virginia pharmacist accused of poisoning her husband with insulin gets underway. We've got the latest from inside the courtroom. With a home equity investment from HomeTab.

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Mary Jambelic]

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[Mario Garcia]

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Andrea Canning]

For our next story, we're heading back to West Virginia for a trial many years in the making. We talked about this story on the podcast last fall. It's a complicated case where one crime, fraud to the tune of two and a half million dollars, allegedly turned into another murder. In September 2019, Natalie Cochran, a pharmacist from the small town of Daniels, West Virginia, was indicted on multiple counts of fraud. The charges came just months after her husband Michael died suddenly. The victims of the scam were primarily friends and family who thought they were investing in the Cochrans business. Natalie pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 11 years in federal prison. That wasn't the end of the story. Just two years later, Natalie was charged with a new crime, her husband's murder. Prosecutors said Natalie poisoned Michael with a vial of insulin. She has pleaded not guilty. And this week, after several delays, including multiple exhumations of Michael's body, the trial finally began. DATELINE producer Jay Young was in West Virginia this week and called us from the courthouse to tell us about what went down. Jay, thanks for joining us again this week.

[Mary Jambelic]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

So to start, can you just quickly remind us of the circumstances of Michael's death?

[Mary Jambelic]

Let me take you back to February of 2019. Michael Cochran suddenly becomes ill. He collapses at his home, and from all accounts, he is having a seizure. Ultimately, they get Michael to a hospital. Michael is subjected to a battery of tests. They are able to determine that he is hypoglycemic, which means his blood sugar levels are very low, dangerously low. And then five days later, after he is sent to a hospice, he tragically dies.

[Andrea Canning]

And the state medical examiner's office, they rule it natural causes at the time.

[Mary Jambelic]

Yeah, the medical examiner ruled the cause of death was natural.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay. But investigators weren't totally buying that ruling and they began to suspect that there could be some foul play here with Michael.

[Mary Jambelic]

People start to scratch their heads A little bit about Michael's death. Michael was 38 years old, and he was in pretty good shape. And unrelated to Michael's death, investigators are getting wind of some problems that are associated with Michael and Natalie's business. Investors are starting to complain a little bit, wondering what's happening to their investments. And so authorities, they start looking into this business, and then ultimately get a search warrant to search Michael and Natalie's house. And what they find was a vial of insulin in the kitchen refrigerator. And ultimately, investigators come up with a theory. Natalie poisoned Michael with insulin. Natalie was concerned that Michael had discovered that the company was actually a fraud, was a Ponzi scheme. And Natalie was concerned Michael was going to come forward and expose her.

[Andrea Canning]

And was it. Is it 100% proven that he died from insulin?

[Mary Jambelic]

They were unable to find insulin in Michael's body when they exhumed it months later. Cut to 2023. The prosecution decides they want to exhume Michael's body again to test his remains with more sophisticated tests. And this time, the pathologist that the state hired to examine the remains ruled that Michael's manner of death was homicide. Now, the state went even further and had an endocrinologist review some of the paperwork, and she determined that the cause of death was most likely due to insulin injections. So there was no trace evidence of insulin.

[Andrea Canning]

This case, as we said, has been going on for a long time. Jury selection was hotly anticipated. You were there, Jay, in the courtroom.

[Mary Jambelic]

You know, Andrea, you've been through this so many times. I have, too. It's a very solemn occasion. Everybody's very quiet. Everyone is really deferential. The prospective jurors were sitting in the jury box, and then the prosecution enters, sits down at their desk, and then in comes Natalie Cochran. And you can see Natalie looking over at the prospective jurors. You can only wonder what's going through her mind.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, you're certainly trying to win over some very important strangers in your life.

[Mary Jambelic]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And there's. There's something really interesting that the prosecutor pointed out that we've heard about before. You know, this CSI effect with jurors that they need DNA, they need video or witnesses. You know, in this case, the prosecutor warned them that. That there's almost no direct evidence.

[Mary Jambelic]

Yep, that's exactly what the prosecution said. And by and large, the prospective jurors said, no, I. I'm okay. I understand that you have direct evidence, and you have circumstantial evidence, and one is not more important than the other. That was the general consensus. On the part of the the prospective panel.

[Andrea Canning]

So opening statements began on Wednesday morning. It may be no surprise the prosecution hit hard on what they say was Natalie's motive.

[Mary Jambelic]

As many deceptions and lies as were told to her victims of the Ponzi scheme. Michael Cochran was told just his name. He did not know what was going on, but he was determined to find out. There's no question that the prosecution has to work with a case that does not have direct evidence. But what they do have is a defendant who is a convicted felon serving 11 years. And if she can defraud her family, loved ones, investors, there's no telling what she can do. That's going to be their argument. This defendant is a pharmacist. She knows about medications and drugs. She knew the impact insulin would make.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense told a very different story in their opening statement. He was involved in the Ponzi scheme. He knew about multi million dollar purchases, the toys, the houses, trips to Paris, trips to Hawaii, expensive, lavish lifestyle. And you have to ask yourself at the end of the case, he didn't know about it really.

[Mary Jambelic]

They argue Michael was well aware of the fraudulent nature of the business so Natalie would have no reason to want to kill him.

[Andrea Canning]

Jay, thank you for staying on this and for bringing us this key information in this all around sad case.

[Mary Jambelic]

Well, thank you for having me, Andrea. I really appreciate it.

[Andrea Canning]

Next it's Dateline roundup and Alec Baldwin is on the offensive with his blockbuster lawsuit against the prosecutor who charged him in the Rust movement movie set shooting death. And Lori Valo Debel appears in court as her own defense attorney. How did she do? Plus a veteran medical examiner on the challenge of cold case autopsies. What if you could use your home equity to pay off your debt without monthly payments so you could focus on reaching your other financial goals with a home equity investment? From Hometap you can get access to your home equity in cash. Get closer to financial freedom and get more out of life. Learn more and see if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] subject to eligibility terms and conditions apply. Get access to your home equity in cash. Visit hometap.com to apply in minutes.

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[Andrea Canning]

Joining me for this week's roundup is DATELINE producer Rachel White. Hey, Rachel.

[Jay Young]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so first up, we're off to New Mexico where actor Alec Baldwin has filed a lawsuit against a whole lot of people involved in the criminal case brought against him in connection to the shooting on his Rust moon back in 2021. Rachel, for anyone who doesn't know this story, and I think most of America does, just remind everyone what happened.

[Jay Young]

Sure. So Baldwin was holding a prop gun, rehearsing for a scene, when somehow the gun fired and it happened to contain live ammo. And that bullet killed the film's cinematographer, Helena Hutchins. In 2024, Baldwin ended up standing trial on charges of involuntary manslaughter.

[Andrea Canning]

Right. And I remember we covered this trial, of course, on the pod. There was this dramatic moment when everything just stopped. And the judge ordered the jury to go home so she could investigate claims that the prosecution had deliberately withheld evidence from Baldwin's defense team.

[Jay Young]

That's right. And the prosecution said that the evidence was unimportant, but the judge found otherwise and dismissed the case with prejudice.

[Rachel White]

If this conduct does not rise to the level of bad faith, it certainly comes so near to bad faith as to show signs of, of scorching prejudice.

[Andrea Canning]

Some people would just walk away, you know, after getting off of something like this. But not Alec Baldwin. He's taken action.

[Jay Young]

Yeah. Last week he filed a 73 page civil lawsuit against several members of the prosecution team, accusing them of conspiring to cause his, quote, malicious prosecution and violating his civil rights. He says the defendants were driven by ill motives, including to, quote, harass or humble him.

[Andrea Canning]

Baldwin has asked for damages and a jury trial.

[Jay Young]

Right. And we should just quickly note here that the defendants have yet to file a response in court. But one of the prosecutors, Carrie Morrissey, told NBC News that they look forward to their day in court.

[Andrea Canning]

We will keep you posted on that one. Lori Valo Debel. So called Mommy Doomsday. There is news about her. She's back in court and this time she's representing herself. Do you want me to stand, your honor, or can I just sit here? You can sit there.

[Jay Young]

Yeah. And it was really something to watch. If you remember, back in 2023, Daybell was sentenced to life in prison for the murders of her two children, JJ and Tylee, and for her involvement in the death of Tammy Daybell, who was her husband's wife. So that meant that she was arguing her case before the judge, but she was wearing an orange jumpsuit and handcuffs while doing so.

[Andrea Canning]

And why is she back in court?

[Jay Young]

So these court proceedings are for murder charges that she's facing in Arizona. So she's charged with the murder of her fourth husband, a man named Charles, and for the attempted murder of the ex husband of her niece.

[Andrea Canning]

I'm so curious. How did she do representing herself?

[Jay Young]

Well, she was definitely confident.

[Andrea Canning]

The state has continued to impede the defense from conducting a defense.

[Jay Young]

She claimed prosecutors might be withholding evidence.

[Andrea Canning]

This is a violation of the 14th Amendment of our great constitution and the defense's due process rights.

[Jay Young]

And she asked for all the discovery related to her extradition from Idaho to Arizona.

[Andrea Canning]

How was her request received by the judge?

[Jay Young]

The judge was pretty firm with Lori, asking her why her extradition documents have anything to do with the underlying charges against her in Arizona. And he ultimately denied this motion.

[Andrea Canning]

Finally, we have an update in a disturbing story out of Wisconsin known as the Slender man case. Some people may remember this story from 2014. Two tweens stabbed their friend 19 times. Rachel.

[Jay Young]

That's right. They were only 12 years old when they lured their friend Peyton Lightner into the woods and attacked her. Lightner just barely survived, and she was able to tell investigators that her friends Anissa Weier and Morgan Geyser had tried to stab her to death.

[Andrea Canning]

Investigators caught up with her attackers, and they admitted what they'd done. But they had a bizarre reason.

[Jay Young]

They told investigators they were trying to become servants of Slenderman. And Slenderman apparently is a fictional character that's become somewhat of an urban legend. They allegedly learned about this character on a horror story website.

[Andrea Canning]

So disturbing, both Geyser and Weiher were sent to psychiatric centers after pleading guilty to intentional homicide charges. Weiher was granted supervised release in 2021. And the big news now is that Geyser is going to be released as well.

[Jay Young]

That's right. In last week's hearing, psychologists who have been working with Geyser testified about the significant progress made. Even Geyser's attorney was emotional after the ruling.

[Mario Garcia]

I think she'll be.

[Andrea Canning]

She's got a lot of talents. I think she's going to be a good person in the community.

[Mario Garcia]

I think she's going to thrive.

[Andrea Canning]

Has Peyton Lightner or her family said anything about Geyser's release.

[Jay Young]

Peyton Lightner's mother listened in on last week's hearing and has opposed Geyser's several attempts to be released.

[Andrea Canning]

Rachel, thank you so much for these updates.

[Jay Young]

Thank you for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

After learning more this week about the trial of West Virginia pharmacist Natalie Cochran, accused of poisoning her husband, we got curious about the make or break role medical examiners can play in cold cases and how difficult it can be trying to figure out someone's cause of death years, sometimes decades after they've died. So for our final story this week, we asked Dr. Mary Jembelek, the former chief medical examiner of Onondaga county in New York, who has conducted thousands of autopsies in her 25 year career, to give us the basics. Mary, thank you so much for joining us again.

[Rachel White]

Hello, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

So, Mary, what is the first thing you do when you are asked to look into the case of someone who's been dead for a while?

[Rachel White]

Well, as in any case that we evaluate as medical examiner, we consider the scene investigation along with whatever evidence we have, the body or whatever is left of the body, maybe photos we're taking. The medical examiner will consider all of that in its totality. Just like if you go into a doctor's office and you say, just figure out what's wrong with me, it's the same when you have a dead body one day or 100 years dead, you need to know the context.

[Andrea Canning]

If you're looking at human remains, can you tell if someone has been shot or stabbed or strangled at that point? How hard is it?

[Rachel White]

You have to learn how to interpret the decaying body as well as the skeletonized body because a gunshot wound, a stab one, it may leave marks on the bone that you can detect and they'll be present for many, many decades. There have been evaluations of, you know, mummies in terms of how did they die. The bones carry a lot of information.

[Andrea Canning]

And if someone is poisoned, can the remains still carry some of that poison or is it too late?

[Rachel White]

Certainly the remains can carry the poison, but it depends on the poison. There are so many drugs and chemicals and toxins in the world. So I think the first thing with a poisoning is you have to have a suspicion of it so that you're making sure you look for the category of poison that you're suspicious about. Now, that being said, as the body decays, so does the blood, so do chemicals in the body. And so it becomes harder to test for those.

[Andrea Canning]

We were just talking on the podcast about the trial of Natalie Cochran, she's accused of fatally poisoning her husband Michael with insulin back in 2019. The state medical examiner's office initially ruled, ruled that Michael died from natural causes. The prosecutor went up against that ruling by the medical examiner.

[Rachel White]

Well, certainly, I mean, I've been on multiple sides of that particular dilemma where my ruling may be questioned and maybe the police and I don't agree, but the medical examiner may have a reason for that determination or may not have considered the, the insulin overdose because it's a very subtle thing.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And in the Natalie Cochran case, prosecutors exhumed her husband's body to run forensic tests. There must be a lot of thought that goes into that decision. How common is it for cold cases to involve exhumations?

[Rachel White]

I don't think exhumations are that easy to occur, especially legally. There has to be a certain burden of proof of the need to do it to further the case. But I've been involved in those court ordered exhumations and sometimes if there is trauma to the skeleton, then it's very worthwhile because you can show that and document that and you can show the absence of that if, if that's important as well. But I always say that it isn't so much that you can't kill someone without leaving a trace. You can. What's really hard to get rid of is your motive. And so you have a motive to kill someone and someone suspects that, then forensics is there to figure it out.

[Andrea Canning]

Mary Jambelic, thank you so much for coming back.

[Rachel White]

Thank you very much, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of DATELINE True Crime Weekly. Next week we'll have tips from NBC senior consumer investigative correspondent Vicki Winn on how to avoid disaster related scams. Whether you're looking for help or trying to give it, we'll tell you what to watch out for. And coming up this Friday on dateline, Keith Morrison has a brand new story. After a wealthy Georgia man's body is found on his sprawling estate, investigators uncover a trove of family secrets and unmask a killer in some shape or form.

[Mary Jambelic]

Gary had close ties or disagreements with all the family members relating to money.

[Andrea Canning]

Watch Keith's story, a little patch of Perfect airing this Friday on NBC at 9, 8 Central. Or stream it Saturday on Peacock. And if you're looking for Deadly Mirage, Josh's story, which was supposed to air last last Friday but got preempted by our coverage of the wildfires in LA. You can see it this Sunday on NBC at 9, 8 Central. To get ad free listening for all our podcasts. Subscribe to Dateline Premium. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kurloff. Production and fact checking held by Sara Kadir. Veronica Maseka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production, Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

[Jay Young]

Have a great day everybody and everyone in la.

[Mary Jambelic]

Be careful.

[Rachel White]

Bye Bye.

[Mary Jambelic]

Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman where each week one of us reveals a mystery guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you love, like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart, and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind. Listen to Smartless now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.