Sean Combs: An expert witness and an explainer – how many defense lawyers is too many defense lawyers?

Summary

Dateline: True Crime Weekly Episode: Sean Combs: An Expert Witness and an Explainer – How Many Defense Lawyers Is Too Many? Release Date: May 22, 2025

In this gripping episode of Dateline: True Crime Weekly, host Andrea Canning delves deep into the high-stakes racketeering trial of Sean Combs. The episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the courtroom dynamics, focusing on the prosecution's key witness, Dr. Dawn Hughes, and the unprecedented expansion of Combs' defense team. Featuring insights from NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Ceballos, the discussion unpacks the complexities of the case and the strategic maneuvers employed by both sides.

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Prosecution's Key Witness: Dr. Dawn Hughes

[02:49 - 05:34]

The prosecution heavily relies on Dr. Dawn Hughes, a renowned forensic psychologist with over three decades of experience studying abusive relationships. Dr. Hughes is no stranger to high-profile cases, having testified in the trials of R. Kelly and the Johnny Depp-Amber Heard defamation case. Despite her extensive expertise, the defense has raised significant objections to her testimony.

Defense Objections:

• Lack of Direct Knowledge: The defense argues that Dr. Hughes lacks firsthand knowledge of Sean Combs and Cassie Ventura, stating, “She’s never met Diddy, so she can only speak in generalities” ([02:57]).
• Questioning Expertise: They further attack her credibility by labeling her testimony as “advocacy masquerading as expertise” ([02:57]).
• Challenging Definitions: The defense disputes her definitions of coercion, a critical component of the sex trafficking charges against Combs ([02:57]).

Judge's Intervention: The judge permitted Dr. Hughes to testify but imposed strict conditions to limit her discourse:

• Restricting Terminology: She was barred from using or defining “coercive control” ([03:31]).
• Focused Responses: The judge instructed her to provide “direct and tight” answers, avoiding unsolicited theories ([03:31]).

Dr. Hughes' Testimony: Dr. Hughes provided a psychological framework to explain the behavior of abuse victims. She introduced concepts such as:

• Trauma Bond: Described as “like a slot machine, that the victim doesn't know what he or she will get from their partner” ([04:26]).
• Delayed Disclosure: Highlighted reasons why victims might hesitate to report abuse, including fear of financial loss, shame, and impaired memory due to trauma ([04:47] - [05:21]).

Despite the defense's challenges, Dr. Hughes' testimony aimed to shed light on the complexities of abusive relationships, providing the prosecution with a nuanced understanding of coercion and victim behavior.

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Defense Challenges and Strategies

[05:34 - 07:56]

The defense team aggressively questioned Dr. Hughes' impartiality and relevance to the case:

• Professional Bias: They pointed out that Dr. Hughes earns a significant portion of her income from testify­ing in trials, stating she charges "$600 an hour" ([06:12]).
• Conflict of Interest: During her redirect testimony, it was revealed that Dr. Hughes had been retained by one of the defense attorneys in the courtroom, undermining her perceived neutrality ([06:36]).

Impact on Credibility: Dr. Hughes' revelation about her engagement with the defense attorney served as a pivotal moment, casting doubt on her objectivity and reinforcing the defense's arguments about her potential bias.

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Expansion of Defense Team

[07:01 - 14:09]

Sean Combs has assembled an extensive defense team, now comprising nine criminal defense attorneys, referred to as his “dream team.” This formidable lineup includes:

• Brian Steele: Known for representing Young Thug, Steele brings significant courtroom experience.
• Nicole Westmoreland: A skilled attorney who also worked on Young Thug's case.
• Tenny Garagos: Daughter of celebrity attorney Mark Garagos, adding a legacy of legal prowess.
• Xavier Donaldson: Recognized for his impressive legal acumen.
• Alexandra Shapiro: Another notable name enhancing the team's strength.

Courtroom Dynamics: The presence of multiple high-profile attorneys at the defense table has raised eyebrows and sparked discussions about the strategic advantages and potential drawbacks of such a large legal team.

Dr. Hughes on the Defense Team: Despite attempts to portray her as biased, Dr. Hughes asserted her professionalism, emphasizing her long-standing career and the legitimacy of her expert testimony ([06:12]).

---

Legal Expert Analysis with Danny Ceballos

[09:54 - 16:40]

Danny Ceballos, NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney, provides critical insights into the intricacies of the trial:

Defense Team Size:

• Strategic Allocation: Ceballos explains that having a large defense team allows for the division of tasks, such as specialized cross-examination of witnesses, leveraging each attorney’s expertise ([12:02] - [13:59]).
• Juror Perception: While a sizeable team might make the defense appear more resourceful than the prosecution, potentially influencing jurors to view the prosecution as the underdog, Andrea Canning argues that the benefits of a diversified legal approach outweigh the risks ([12:53] - [13:59]).

Client Engagement:

• Defendant's Involvement: Ceballos discusses the optics of Sean Combs actively participating in his defense by passing notes to his attorneys, suggesting it portrays him as diligent and invested in his case ([14:09] - [15:49]).
• Potential Distractions: Andrea Canning counters that such behaviors may not significantly impact the case's substance but can enhance the defendant’s image in the eyes of the jury ([15:49]).

Cross-Examination Tactics: Ceballos highlights the defensive attorney Jonathan Bach’s effective cross-examination of Dr. Hughes, demonstrating the depth of Combs' legal representation ([07:01] - [07:56]).

---

Other Proceedings and Future Developments

[16:40 - 17:57]

The episode touches upon the delayed testimony of pop star Kid Cudi, initially expected to testify in the prosecution's case. While the rescheduling of his appearance is not unusual in high-profile trials, it adds another layer of uncertainty to the proceedings ([16:40] - [17:01]).

---

Conclusion and Insights

[17:11 - End]

Andrea Canning concludes by emphasizing the ongoing developments in the trial and the strategic positioning of both the prosecution and defense teams. The episode underscores the high stakes involved and the meticulous planning that characterizes such a high-profile legal battle.

Key Takeaways:

• The prosecution's reliance on expert testimony to establish the psychological dynamics of abusive relationships.
• The defense's robust challenge to the credibility and relevance of the prosecution's key witness.
• The strategic expansion of the defense team as a move to strengthen Combs' legal standing.
• The nuanced interplay between legal tactics and juror perceptions in shaping the trial's outcome.

This episode provides listeners with an in-depth understanding of the complexities inherent in high-profile true crime cases, highlighting the delicate balance between legal strategy and courtroom dynamics.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Dawn Hughes on trauma bonds: “It's like a slot machine, that the victim doesn't know what he or she will get from their partner” ([04:26]).
• Defense's critique of Dr. Hughes: “She’s never met Diddy, so she can only speak in generalities” ([02:57]).
• Andrea Canning on defense team benefits: “I think the benefits outweigh the risks here for Combs” ([13:59]).
• Danny Ceballos on defense optics: “It might look to the jury that it's not the government that has the infinite resources, but the defense” ([12:02]).

---

This detailed summary encapsulates the pivotal moments and strategic maneuvers within Sean Combs' racketeering trial, providing listeners with a thorough understanding of the courtroom drama unfolding in real-time.

Transcript

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[Andrea]

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[Chloe]

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[Danny Ceballos]

This is On Trial, a special series from Dateline, True Crime Weekly, bringing you daily coverage from the Sean Combs racketeering trial. He has pleaded not guilty to all the charges against him. I'm Andrea Canning and it's Wednesday, May 21st. Just a heads up, in this episode, we're going to be talking about some graphic details and harrowing subject matter today. The prosecution's big witness was not as promised yesterday. A pop star, Kid Cudi has been rescheduled for another day. Instead, their big witness was a forensic psychologist. Dr. Dawn Hughes has spent the past 30 years studying abusive relationships. And she's a heavy hitter in the world of expert witnesses. You might recognize her name from some other high profile trials. She testified at the trial of R and B singer R. Kelly and at the Johnny Depp Amber heard defamation trial. Dr. Hughes has never met Sean Combs or Cassie Ventura. But the prosecutor hoped she'd give jurors a crash course on what she considers to be typical behavior of abuse victims. Why they might stay in abusive relationships or send loving Messages to their abusers and why they might take a while to share their experience with other people. NBC News correspondent Chloe Meloss is outside the federal courthouse to tell us how Dr. Hughes did on the stand. Plus, we'll have a special guest to talk about Combs ever expanding defense team. Chloe, hello again.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

Hey, Andrea.

[Danny Ceballos]

Let's get right to it. Before Dr. Hughes even took the stand, this. This big time witness, there was already some drama.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

Absolutely. There was the defense. They had filed a motion last month to block her testimony completely. They said, first of all, she's ever interviewed Cassie. She's never met Diddy, so she can only speak in generalities. They said that her testimony is, quote, advocacy masquerading as expertise. And so one of the things that they really disagree with is the way that Dr. Hughes defines coercion, which we know is a very important part of the sex trafficking charge against Combs.

[Danny Ceballos]

The judge, of course, let her take the stand. The expert, but he did have some conditions.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

The judge had said that she could not use or define the term coercive control, that she cannot offer theories about how an abuser typically acts. And, you know, what we saw is that she gave long answers and the judge kept saying, please keep your answers direct and tight and only answer what's asked of you.

[Danny Ceballos]

All right, so she doesn't know Sean Combs. She doesn't know Cassie Ventura. So how do you does Dr. Hughes help the prosecution?

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

So she explains why victims of domestic violence stay in these abusive relationships and why they are fearful to tell people in their lives. Most times there is love in these relationships, which makes it really complicated. And why sometimes you see these victims leave, come back again, or just stay for longer than you expect them to.

[Danny Ceballos]

Yeah, she used the phrase trauma bond.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

Yeah, that was something that she said. It's like a slot machine, that the victim doesn't know what he or she will get from their partner at any given moment, but that they think their partner loves them in some way, so they want to stick around because there's that glimmer of hope and because abuse can be so isolating. The only person that the victim has, sometimes because they don't share what's going on with anybody else, is their abuser.

[Danny Ceballos]

Dr. Hughes described a range of behavior victims adopt to cope with abuse. It could be substance abuse or disassociation. She talked about something called delayed disclosure.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

Right. So she talked about why it's common to not tell people in your life. Why are these individuals not filing a police report or going to the hospital. Maybe it's because you're afraid of losing financial security, a fear of not being believed. Shame. And she also talked about memory, how trauma can impact your memory.

[Danny Ceballos]

And the defense made the point that Dr. Hughes doesn't know not only Sean or Cassie, but any of the other alleged victims. And she doesn't know anything about this case beyond what she's read.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

I thought that that was a really, really good point that they were making, is how can you opine on this and give credence to what the prosecutors are saying in their indictment when you have not had a front row seat to this relationship? You get that when you have your own clients in your clinical psychology practice, but you don't have that here. So how can you talk about what may or may not have happened when you haven't talked to either of them?

[Danny Ceballos]

Chloe, we talked at the top about all the high profile cases that Dr. Hughes has testified in. And the defense set out to characterize her really as a professional witness.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

Well, she said that she's been doing this since the late 90s and that it represents the about 50% or so of her income, that she's making $6,000 to testify as part of this trial, which sounds like a lot of money. Right. But she bills $600 an hour, and it sounds like that's actually pretty common.

[Danny Ceballos]

Yeah. There was a blow to the defense during their redirect of Dr. Hughes. What happened?

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

That is right, because as they were looking at her resume and her history of testifying in these trials and trying to poke holes in her credibility and her motivation, she testified that she had been retained by one of the defense attorneys in that courtroom. So it was one of those mic drop moments, right, to say, look, you're saying I'm biased, but not so fast.

[Danny Ceballos]

Speaking of Sean Combs defense team, he has a new lawyer.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

Combs now has nine criminal defense attorneys. It's, you know, his version of the dream team. And he has a new attorney named Jonathan Bach. We saw him yesterday and then he cross examined Dr. Hughes today, and I thought he did a pretty good job.

[Danny Ceballos]

Chloe, are these lawyers, all nine of them, in the courtroom at the same time?

[Brad]

Yes.

[Danny Ceballos]

Or do they kind of come. So they're all nine of them are sitting at the defense table.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

Oh, it's fascinating. I mean, I wish you guys could be in there with me to see this. There's two long tables of defense attorneys and they're.

[Danny Ceballos]

That is incredible.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

They're really famous. I mean, you have Brian Steele, who represented Young Thug, and he flew up from Atlanta. Nicole Westmoreland. She is fantastic and she also worked on Young Thug's case. You have Tenny Garagos, the daughter of celebrity attorney Mark Garagos. You have Xavier Donaldson, who is a really impressive attorney. Alexandra Shapiro shows what what can happen.

[Danny Ceballos]

When you have a lot of money. I guess so. When we come back, we've got a special guest, NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Ceballos. He'll tell us what he sees when he looks at Sean Combs crowded defense table that we just talked about.

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[Danny Ceballos]

Welcome to the podcast, Danny.

[Andrea]

Thanks for having me.

[Danny Ceballos]

All right, so before we get to the makeup of Sean Combs defense team, straighten something out for us, if you would. We spent most of the day hearing from Dr. Hughes about the hallmarks of an abusive relationship. The prosecution says that's what Cassie's relationship relationship was with Combs. But an abusive relationship on its own isn't enough for the prosecution to get a conviction on the charges that Combs is facing. They need to prove a lot more than that to get him on the RICO and sex trafficking charges. Correct.

[Andrea]

You are Absolutely right. Combs is not on trial for abuse, for assault, or even rape. But those acts are evidence that will help the government prove their case in chief. And one of the elements of the crime of sex trafficking is that someone was forced into service commercial sex acts by means of force, fraud, or coercion. So the domestic violence really becomes part of the government's proof of that coercion of that force. And by the way, coercion has to be something that is a. That creates a fear of physical harm. It can't just be social pressure or being yelled at.

[Danny Ceballos]

And while it's technically not on trial, Sean Combs character is certainly on trial.

[Andrea]

Yeah. Character is technically never supposed to be part of a case. In fact, it's forbidden. But the reality is this, prosecutors are very good at finding ways of bringing character into the case. And so, for example, if part of their case is that force, fraud, or coercion is shown through things like that video of Combs beating Cassie Ventura in the hotel that we've all seen. Now, that's the kind of thing the government knows is really effective at not only proving their case, but making Combs look like a horrible person. And even the defense acknowledged in their opening, you may think my client's a jerk. That doesn't mean he committed these federal crimes.

[Danny Ceballos]

Right. One of the things I'm curious about is all these lawyers. There's so many of them. What. What do you think the jurors make of that?

[Andrea]

It might look to the jury that it's not the government that has the infinite resources, but the defense. So that might be a minor issue. You don't necessarily want to look like you're as well heeled as Combs is. And look, it's always a good thing to have more minds, more criminal defense minds on the case than less. The one thing I'll say is this. Criminal defense attorneys often have egos. They often have an idea about how a case should go. So the more attorneys you add, you might have a lot of disagreement. Behind closed doors in their strategy sessions, that can be a challenge. But a benefit is obviously that you can divide up tasks like cross examining particular witnesses and give each attorney a set of witnesses to handle that's suited to their expertise. So that is certainly a benefit.

[Danny Ceballos]

Yeah, I mean, I was thinking, like, could the law of diminishing returns apply here where the jurors are sort of like, okay, now there's, like, too many people involved in this. What is going on? Just the optics, you know, I'm just wondering if it could be a turnoff for the average Joe sitting on that jury panel.

[Andrea]

You're absolutely right about the optics. If there are more attorneys on the defense side than the government side, then it looks like who's really the underdog here? Because make no mistake about it, the defense is always the underdog. You know, in a federal criminal case where the conviction rate is well above 90%. But I have to say that in a federal criminal case, and I've handled quite a few of these, and the modern criminal case involves so much digital evidence that it just feels like you're awash in evidence and exhibits. So in my mind, even if there might be some issues with optics, with having a large defense team, it's such a luxury to be able to hand out different tasks and split everything up among a lot of these brilliant legal minds. So I think the benefits outweigh the risks here for Combs.

[Danny Ceballos]

And he really does have some brilliant minds on that team.

[Andrea]

Oh, my gosh, yes, absolutely. He's got 10e Garrigos, he's got Steele, he's got a number of really, really skilled attorneys on his team.

[Danny Ceballos]

Is it good or bad that Combs is so engaged? We've noticed that Sean Combs has been passing a lot of post it notes to his attorneys.

[Andrea]

I'll tell you this, and I'm going to be really candid, it might get me in trouble, Andrea. But in my experience, it is rare that even, even sophisticated clients, it's rare that those notes that they hand during trial or when they start tugging on your sleeve, rarely do they have something that is absolutely essential for the attorney to hear. Sometimes they do. And maybe Combs is different. Maybe he's an essential part of the defense team. But more often than not, when you're an attorney and you're focusing on direct examination and when you should object, usually the client handing you notes is not very helpful. I think most defense attorneys would tell you that most of the time when the client passes them a note, it's some version of they're lying.

[Danny Ceballos]

Yes.

[Andrea]

And you know, to that I have to say, okay, great. What do you want me to do? I'll bring that up on cross examination. Thank you.

[Danny Ceballos]

And do the jurors think anything, do you think when they're seeing. Well, then the defendant so involved.

[Andrea]

Yeah, you know, you bring up a very good point. It is a good thing for the jurors to think that the defendant is actively involved in his case. You know, I often tell clients, just sit there and look not guilty, which is kind of a Glib remark. It's kind of a joke because how do you do that? But it's true. The only person the jurors are constantly watching is the defendant. So there is a bit of theater involved. And it does help if the jurors think, hey, this is somebody that's diligent, he cares about his case. The optics of him handing over notes may be much better than the actual substance of the notes that he's handing over.

[Danny Ceballos]

So this new lawyer that just came on board and immediately cross examined Dr. Hughes, is that normal for someone to just kind of appear like that in the, you know, while we're into this.

[Andrea]

Trial, here's what didn't happen. I can virtually guarantee it. What didn't happen is that the lawyer Bock was retained last night and looked at the file for the first time. Last night? That's impossible. Probably more likely this was a strategic choice. I'm sure the attorney was prepping for weeks, if not months and just entered his appearance last night or whenever it was. Maybe that was even part of the strategy to keep him under the radar. But more likely than not, this is an attorney with extensive experience cross examining witnesses like this. And you know, Andrea, I've used memory witnesses, experts in psychology. This is a particularly complicated area of expertise.

[Danny Ceballos]

All right, best guess on Kid Cudi tomorrow. Do we believe that he'll be taking the stand?

[Andrea]

Well, we thought he might today and then that got pushed off. But that is not unusual in trials. By the way, it could be that it wasn't Kid Cudi's schedule. It might have been one of the witnesses from today. We really don't know. This kind of thing happens all the time.

[Danny Ceballos]

All right, well, we will have the answer soon enough. Danny, thank you for giving us some new insight to this trial. We love having you on. And Chloe, we will see you tomorrow.

[Dr. Dawn Hughes]

Absolutely.

[Danny Ceballos]

Thanks for listening. We'll be back with a new episode tomorrow night. And if you want to read the latest developments and analysis from inside the courtroom, check out the NBC newsletter. Diddy on trial. Go to nbcnews.com diddy to find that. On Trial is produced by Franny Kelly with help from the Dateline True Crime Weekly team. Our senior producers are Alison Orr and Liz Brown Karloff. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

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