The pharmacist poisoning trial wraps up. A deadly love triangle in paradise? And Bryan Kohberger is back in court.

Summary

Dateline: True Crime Weekly - January 30, 2025

Host: Andrea Canning
Description: A comprehensive exploration of the week's most gripping true crime stories, featuring expert insights and behind-the-scenes updates from Andrea Canning and her guests.

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1. Verdict in the Natalie Cochran Poisoning Trial

Location: West Virginia

After a prolonged 13-year journey to the courtroom, the trial of Natalie Cochran, a pharmacist accused of murdering her husband Michael to conceal a multimillion-dollar Ponzi scheme, has concluded with a unanimous guilty verdict.

Key Developments:

• Nicole Cochran's Testimony: Natalie and Michael's daughter, Nicole, provided pivotal testimony. She portrayed her father as an athlete whose declining health and extensive use of supplements raised questions about the cause of his death.
  • Nicole Cochran at [03:07]: "She painted quite a picture... Michael was really into bodybuilding..."
• Defense's Argument: The defense challenged the prosecution's assertion that Natalie administered a lethal insulin overdose. They presented evidence suggesting Michael's body was too decomposed for a definitive cause of death.
  • Defense Expert at [07:29]: "The manner and cause of death could not be determined."
• Prosecution's Stance: Despite relying on circumstantial evidence, the prosecution emphasized Natalie's motive to prevent Michael from uncovering the financial fraud.
  • Nicole Cochran at [09:23]: "The defendant is guilty of murder in the first degree."

Conclusion: The jury deliberated for only two hours before delivering a unanimous verdict of first-degree murder, surprising many given the case's reliance on circumstantial evidence.

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2. Retrial of Eric Thompson in Oahu

Location: Honolulu, Hawaii

Eric Thompson, accused of fatally shooting his wife's lover, John Tokuhara, faces a retrial after the first jury failed to reach a verdict. The case is mired in complex relationship dynamics and forensic debates.

Case Background:

• Affairs and Motives: Eric and his wife Joyce were involved in a tumultuous relationship, with Joyce having an affair with Tokuhara. The prosecution alleges Eric killed Tokuhara to stop his wife from continuing the affair.
  • Prosecutor at [14:11]: "He had spent six months carefully trying to plan this and make it as perfect as possible."

Forensic Controversies:

• DNA Evidence: Central to the prosecution's case is DNA found on a white bucket hat recovered from the scene, which is alleged to match Eric. However, the defense questions the validity of this evidence due to mishandling by the Honolulu Police Department's crime lab.
  • Defense Attorney at [15:48]: "Honolulu Police Department's crime lab was audited by the FBI, saying that it had outdated technology."

Current Trial Focus:

• Enhanced Forensic Analysis: In the retrial, prosecutors aim to bolster their DNA evidence by utilizing more reputable laboratories to reaffirm the connection to Eric Thompson.
• Defense Strategy: The defense continues to argue that there are multiple potential suspects with motives, citing other affairs Tokuhara was involved in and questioning the initial investigation's focus on Eric.

Notable Testimony:

• Eric Thompson's Defense Statement:
  • Eric Thompson at [18:43]: "I came to the realization that, you know, the problem was with me and Joyce, it wasn't. I mean, she cut him off."

Conclusion: As the retrial progresses, the prosecution seeks to solidify its forensic evidence, while the defense highlights investigative oversights and alternative suspects.

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3. Updates on Bryan Kohberger’s Trial

Location: Boise, Idaho

Bryan Kohberger, accused of the 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students, remains a focal point in true crime circles. An recent evidentiary hearing has shed light on critical defense motions challenging the prosecution's case.

Evidentiary Hearings:

• DNA Analysis Challenges: The defense contends that the DNA evidence obtained through genetic genealogy violates Kohberger’s privacy rights and seeks its exclusion from the trial.
  • Defense Argument at [22:13]: "They really just want that evidence excluded from trial."
• Roommate's Credibility: The surviving roommate, slated to testify for the prosecution, is under scrutiny by the defense for potential memory issues and inconsistencies in her account.
  • Defense at [23:02]: "They say the police withheld information about the witness's possible memory problems."

Prosecution's Counter:

• Validity of Evidence: The prosecution maintains that the DNA evidence is reliable and that the roommate’s testimony is consistent with the crime scene findings.
  • Prosecutor at [23:33]: "We know it wasn't a dream because they found the evidence discovered the next morning."

Judge's Stance: While no official ruling has been made, the judge appears skeptical of the defense's arguments, leaning towards the admissibility of the DNA evidence.

Conclusion: With the trial set for summer, the defense's motions could play a pivotal role in shaping the proceedings against Kohberger, depending on the judge’s rulings.

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4. Trial of Monica Sementille for Plotting Her Husband’s Murder

Location: Los Angeles

Monica Sementille stands accused of orchestrating the 2017 murder of her husband, Fabio Sementille, a renowned Hollywood hairstylist. The trial has garnered significant attention, especially due to the involvement of a key witness.

Case Highlights:

• Prosecutor's Narrative: The prosecution portrays Monica as the mastermind behind the murder plot, presenting her as emotionally detached and calculated.

  • Prosecutor at [24:21]: "She was wiping away her tears as they called her the mastermind of the plot to kill Fabio."

• Defense's Strategy: Monica's defense centers on Robert Baker, her lover who previously pleaded no contest to the murder and is serving a life sentence. Baker maintains that Monica was not involved in the killing.

  • Defense at [24:55]: "He’s maintained that Monica was never involved in the plot."

Prosecution's Challenge: To counter Baker's testimony, the prosecution argues that his changing story over the years undermines his credibility, making him an unreliable witness.

Conclusion: As the trial unfolds, the credibility of Robert Baker's testimony will be crucial in determining Monica Sementille's involvement in her husband's murder.

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5. Understanding Plea Deals with Legal Analyst Danny Savalos

Andrea Canning delves into the complexities of legal pleas beyond the conventional guilty or not guilty options, featuring insights from NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos.

Types of Pleas:

• No Contest (Nolo Contendere) Plea:

  • Danny Savalos at [25:39]: "In a no contest plea, you're basically not pleading guilty, you're not pleading anything..."
  • Implications: Allows defendants to avoid admitting guilt while accepting conviction, preventing civil liability disputes.

• Alford Plea:

  • Danny Savalos at [26:03]: "In an Alford plea, the defendant is pleading guilty but maintaining their innocence."
  • Usage: Often employed when evidence is overwhelming, but defendants wish to assert their innocence.
  • Notable Cases: Michael Peterson and Pam Hupp utilized Alford pleas to avoid harsher sentences or the death penalty.

Judge's Perspective:

• Many courts are hesitant to accept Alford pleas as they can frustrate victims’ families seeking accountability.
  • Danny Savalos at [28:51]: "They are controversial because for people like victims, families who come to court, they want to see someone take accountability for their actions."

Conclusion: Plea deals like the Alford and no contest pleas offer alternative avenues for defendants but come with their own set of legal and emotional complexities.

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Upcoming on Dateline:

• “The Devil Wore White” – A two-hour special exploring the life of Sante Kimes and her sons, unveiling a dual narrative of a criminal mastermind and a devoted mother.
  Air Date: This Friday at 9/8 Central on NBC and streaming on Peacock starting Saturday.

Stay Informed:
For more in-depth coverage of these cases and other true crime stories, visit Dateline True Crime Weekly.

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Produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson, with contributions from Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, Liz Brown, Sara Kadir, Veronica Mazzaiko, Rick Kwan, Jesse McGinty, Bryson Barnes, Paul Ryan, and Liz Cole.

Transcript

[Jeff Lewis]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

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[Dateline Host]

Happy New Year.

[Natalie Cochran's Daughter]

Year of the Snake.

[Andrea Canning]

You're listening in to Dateline's morning meeting in 30 Rockefeller Center.

[Dateline Host]

So this story, it took 13 years.

[Andrea Canning]

For this to get to trial. Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country. We're totally following it and we're trying.

[Jay Young]

To work through the relationship.

[Nicole Cochran]

Well, why don't you go, why don't.

[Andrea Canning]

You try to talk to her?

[Dateline Host]

But we've got, you know, these big attacks on the DNA.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to date. Welcome back to online True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's January 30th, and here's what's on our docket. In Oahu, Hawaii, opening statements in the sensational second trial of a husband accused of murdering his wife's acupuncturist turned lover, Eric Thompson executed this murder nearly flawlessly in DATELINE Roundup, Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of murdering four University of Idaho students in their beds, is back in court as his defense team cries foul. She said things that were just absolutely untrue and couldn't have been true. Law enforcement knew that. Plus, you've definitely heard about defendants pleading guilty or not guilty. But did you know there are some other kinds of pleas defendants sometimes make? NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos will be here to give us the basics.

[Jay Young]

Many judges, many courts, many states will not allow Alford pleas. They are controversial.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're heading back to West Virginia and the trial of Natalie Cochran, the pharmacist accused of poisoning her husband Michael to cover up a multimillion dollar Ponzi scheme. Nearly six years after Michael's death, we finally have a verdict. We've been bringing you inside the courtroom for the trial of Natalie Cochran over the last few episodes. Last week we finally got more insight into Natalie Cochran's defense as her attorneys began to make their case. Calling to the stand friends of the couple, medical exper and family, including both of the Cochrans children. Do you know the defendant, Natalie Cochran?

[Nicole Cochran]

Yes, she is my mother.

[Andrea Canning]

DATELINE producer Jay Young was in the courtroom and joins us now to tell us all about the dramatic testimony and what the jury decided. Jay, thanks for joining us again.

[Nicole Cochran]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. So let's start with one of the first witnesses. The defense called Natalie and Michael's daughter Nicole. What was the reaction like in the courtroom when she took the stand?

[Nicole Cochran]

It was, it was palpable. You know, she took the stance, she was very quiet, very reserved in how she started off and how she described her father. And she painted quite a picture.

[Andrea Canning]

So the prosecution argued Michael died from an overdose by insulin injection given to him by his wife. But Nicole's testimony pointed to other potential sources of his health problems which had started in the years leading up to his death.

[Nicole Cochran]

Well, she, you know, she testified Michael was really into bodybuilding and, and how he appeared. And so he was an athlete and he took supplements to increase his muscle mass. And so she talked about how she would see her dad put a basically a plate out and just dump a bunch of pills onto the plate and then take them every morning. She also talked about how toward 2017, this was a couple of years before he passed, that his health wasn't great and that his health was in decline. And she painted a picture of her dad as someone who wasn't his robust self.

[Andrea Canning]

Nicole spoke about Michael spending time in hospitals and she mentioned how his poor health was affecting him.

[Nicole Cochran]

She noticed a big difference in his demeanor. She did testify about visiting him in the hospital and this was in the fall of 2018, prior to his passing in February of 2019.

[Natalie Cochran's Daughter]

He said some kind things to my brother and I because he didn't think he would get another chance to.

[Commercial Announcer]

Is that what he told you?

[Natalie Cochran's Daughter]

He told me that he always appreciated my intelligence and that he never told me that, but he wanted me to know it now just in case he never got to say it again.

[Commercial Announcer]

Did you take it as a farewell to life?

[Natalie Cochran's Daughter]

I've always considered that to be kind of like my goodbye.

[Andrea Canning]

Natalie's son also took the stand. He Talked about his parents business and about who was in charge and who wasn't.

[Nicole Cochran]

That's right. He actually testified very specifically about a time he remembers his mom was watching something on television and his father was on a computer. And he asked his dad what he was doing. And according to the son, he said his dad told him he was working on some contracts with the company that he and Natalie had started. So that was all to indicate that his. His dad was very involved in the minutiae of the company.

[Andrea Canning]

I think we all know who wore.

[Commercial Announcer]

The pants in the situation.

[Andrea Canning]

He definitely ran it way more. Right, because the prosecution had said that it was Natalie who was in charge, Correct?

[Nicole Cochran]

That's right. That's right. All along, the prosecution has said the Ponzi scheme that ultimately was revealed was all Natalie's doing and Michael had no idea what was going on.

[Andrea Canning]

So the defense also challenged another key part of the prosecution's case, that Natalie poisoned Michael with insulin. And remember, investigators exhumed Michael's body twice to examine it. The first time, the manner of death was undetermined. And then the second they found it was homicide. The defense argued in court that the body was simply too decomposed to make a determination. And they showed photos from the first autopsy in court in a very emotional moment.

[Commercial Announcer]

These are photographs, and they're somewhat gruesome.

[Nicole Cochran]

It was pretty hard to take. You know, I've seen a fair amount of crime scene photos over the years. And you heard Michael's mother sobbing after looking at the photographs. And it was a very disturbing moment, I think, for everyone in the courtroom.

[Andrea Canning]

What did the defense's experts have to say about the findings from the autopsy?

[Nicole Cochran]

They concluded that the first autopsy done seven months after Michael's passing was in fact, the correct ruling that the manner and cause of death could not be determined.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And we. We have some sound from Dr. Priya Banerjee, forensic pathologist, speaking about that.

[Dateline Host]

Unfortunately, embalming and burial does not keep the body in the same state as when one passes away. So even though the procedure is supposed to, it's still not perfect.

[Andrea Canning]

The prosecution took an opportunity, you know, to. To cross Dr. Banerjee. She really. She stood her ground with her findings.

[Nicole Cochran]

Yeah, she did. She basically said, look, there's very little that we can determine from Michael's autopsy.

[Dateline Host]

We don't practice in a black box. We always consider the circumstances. We consider whatever records we have made available. But the autopsy is the gold standard. Okay. His body's too decomposed.

[Andrea Canning]

And.

[Dateline Host]

And in our field, it is acceptable to Use undetermined as a cause of death and undetermined as a manner of death.

[Andrea Canning]

So we move on, Jay, to closing statements. What were the arguments both the prosecution and the defense each wanted to leave the jury with?

[Nicole Cochran]

Well, I think on the part of the prosecution, they wanted to demonstrate that Natalie had a motive. And Natalie's motive was that Michael was about to uncover the Ponzi scheme that she had created. And so what she decided to do was to kill her husband. And so the defense tried to take the wind out of the prosecution sail by saying Michael knew it was a Ponzi scheme, so Natalie had no motive to kill him. And if you believe that Natalie didn't have motive, then the prosecution's case collapses.

[Andrea Canning]

So the jury started deliberating Wednesday morning, and they came back with a verdict about only two hours later. We, the jury on the issues joined unanimously find the following.

[Nicole Cochran]

The defendant is guilty of murder in the first degree.

[Andrea Canning]

Was that a surprise to you?

[Nicole Cochran]

Yeah, I mean, I think no one knew what was going to happen. The prosecution made it very clear they had no direct evidence in this case. It was a circumstantial case. Now, they said that they had a mountain of circumstantial evidence, a blizzard of circumstantial evidence, but that was still going to be a stone that they had to get up the mountain. I think everybody was surprised at the outcome.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, Jay, thanks so much for coming on and keeping us up to date on this case.

[Nicole Cochran]

Thanks for having me, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, heartbreak in paradise. We've got details from inside a Hawaii courtroom. As a man accused of shooting his wife's lover is tried for the second time.

[Jeff Lewis]

With a home equity investment from home tab, you get access to your home equity in cash without monthly payments to use for whatever you'd like, from paying off debt to making renovations or handling emergency expenses. Receive your funds in just a few weeks, start pursuing your financial goals and start getting more out of life. See if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] Subject to eligibility, terms and conditions apply. That's hometap.com.

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[SiriusXM Announcer]

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[Andrea Canning]

Three years ago, 47 year old John Tokuhara, an acupuncturist in Honolulu, Hawaii, didn't show up for dinner with his mom. The next morning, she went to open the clinic their family owned and found him dead on the floor. He'd been shot in the face three times. A month later, our affiliate KHNL reported that a contractor named Eric Thompson had been arrested. Prosecutors say Eric Thompson shot and killed.

[Jay Young]

Tokuhara after he discovered that the acupuncturist.

[Andrea Canning]

Was having an affair with his wife. But Eric's wife, Joyce wasn't the only one having an affair with John Tokuhara. There were other love triangles, other angry husbands.

[Commercial Announcer]

Thompson's defense team has argued that police zeroed in on him and didn't thoroughly vet or consider other suspects.

[Andrea Canning]

Eric Thompson pleaded not guilty to murder in the second degree and went to trial in the summer of 2023. A jury deliberated for more than three days but could not reach a verdict. Earlier this month, a new jury was sworn in and Eric Thompson's retrial began. Mark carpenter from KH&L covered Eric's first trial and now he's on his second. He's here to tell us what is new this time around. Mark, thanks for making the time.

[Commercial Announcer]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Mark, what happened here?

[Commercial Announcer]

So Eric and Joyce are high school sweethearts that have been, you know, having a hard time having a baby. And so Joyce had been going to Tokohara's clinic for fertility treatment for acupuncture. What we learned in trial is that over time, their relationship turned into something more. 5,600 direct messages exchanged between the two of them on Instagram. They say it was a sexual relationship. They say it was romantic relationship.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And even after she had the baby, not only did they keep seeing each other, but she kept going to the clinic to get treated.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah, that's kind of how it all came out. That summer of 2021, Eric was on another island for a business trip and he got a notification that the door was open. And he looked at the cameras and he saw that Joyce was meeting somebody. And then so when he came back from the island, he Confronted her about it.

[Andrea Canning]

And she admitted it.

[Commercial Announcer]

She admitted it. And from our understanding, the relationship ended right after. Six months later, Tokuhara was found dead at his clinic.

[Andrea Canning]

What does the prosecution think the motive was then, if the affair had ended?

[Commercial Announcer]

They're trying to portray Eric Thompson as a controlling husband. He liked to keep tabs on her at all times. And that when he found out of the affair, especially with somebody that they had gone to for something so personal, he was incensed. And he had spent six months carefully trying to plan this and make it as perfect as possible.

[Andrea Canning]

So lay out what prosecutors say happened. This. This is the middle of January, 2022.

[Commercial Announcer]

They say that they have video surveillance that Eric Thompson parked maybe a few streets down, had walked to John Tokohara's clinic. You never see him actually going into the clinic, but in the area of completely disguised. He's wearing a white bucket hat, sunglasses, a mask, even one of those masks that you see during the time of COVID Gloves and long sleeves. They say he brought in a handgun. There was no fight. Shot Tokohara three times in the face, and walked right out back to his car. Now, the whole crux with all this is that the white hat that this individual was seen wearing had fallen off his head and was picked up by a homeless person. Police in the area ended up recovering this bucket hat. Tat was then tested, and they say it can't be ruled out that the DNA found on there does not belong to Eric Thompson.

[Andrea Canning]

The prosecution says DNA evidence is pointing straight to Eric. This is like the smoking hat.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah, precisely.

[Andrea Canning]

Or could be, because the defense has a counter to that. They say the hat was mishandled by the police. And this summer, their lab came under scrutiny.

[Commercial Announcer]

Honolulu Police Department's crime lab was audited by the FBI, saying that it had outdated technology. This is equipment that is obsolete. This lab said to be subpar in an FBI in review of it.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, and the defense's theory, how does it differ from the prosecution's?

[Commercial Announcer]

They say that Eric wasn't even there at all. They say that surveillance video will show that. They claim that he was actually on the other side of the island dumping construction material because of his work as a contractor. They also point to a theory that police only honed in on Eric because he was the convenient suspect. The most recent affair. There could have been other people out there who had motivation to attack him. John Tokuhara was seeing other women who had been in relationships. Some of them had been married. They brought up the ex husbands. They brought up the ex Boyfriends of these women, they say. The men themselves say that. Hpd, yeah. While they did question them, they didn't question them and investigate them so thoroughly as Eric Thompson was.

[Andrea Canning]

How are things going to play out differently for the prosecution with this second trial? Because, you know, whatever they were doing the first time didn't work if it ended in a deadlock.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah. The prosecution was shocked that there was no unanimous guilty verdict the first time around. Our understanding is going into this second round here is that they're really going to ramp up the DNA evidence. What we're hearing in opening statements is that this time around, this white bucket hat was taken to a very reputable lab on the continental U.S. which the prosecution, they say, is much more accurate and zeroes in on Thompson even more.

[Andrea Canning]

So. Eric's second trial began last week, and the first witness the prosecution called was John's mother. This is actually her second time having to testify in 18 months. That can't be easy.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes, and completely awful.

[Andrea Canning]

As I entered, I saw John on the floor.

[Skechers Announcer]

He was in a prone position.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And she's suing Eric for wrongful death.

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

Mm.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes.

[Andrea Canning]

The prosecution also called witnesses to set up the surveillance video they say shows Eric near the clinic that day. And they're arguing. If you can't tell it's Eric, that's because he went to great lengths to conceal his identity. Eric Thompson executed this murder nearly flawlessly.

[Commercial Announcer]

They say that he disguised himself, he disguised his truck, whereas the defense said, there are so many of these trucks out there in Hawaii. The white Chevy Silverado. That is a very vague description right there. Also, too, they say when he found out about the affair, there was no confrontation, no contact with John Tokohara. Calls, texts, nothing direct or indirect. No threats or anger directed at John Takahara.

[Andrea Canning]

Eric Thompson testified in his own defense in his first trial. I came to the realization that, you know, the problem was with me and Joyce, it wasn't. I mean, she cut him off.

[Jay Young]

Did you kill John Tokuhara?

[Commercial Announcer]

No, I didn't.

[Andrea Canning]

Do you think you'll see him take the stand again?

[Commercial Announcer]

Absolutely. I think for the jury, they want to see, like, can we believe this guy?

[Andrea Canning]

Joyce is standing by her husband. Has she been appearing in court this time around?

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes, she has. Yep. She's been right behind him in the first row.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, Mark, we'll keep an eye on this one. Thank you so much.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah. Very fascinating. Thank you so much.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up, we've got two big stories to talk about in Dateline Roundup. New information from the courtroom about the roommate who was inside inside the house and survived when four University of Idaho students were murdered. And updates from the trial of Monica Sementille, the woman accused of plotting to kill her hairstylist husband. Plus, did you know there are lots of different ways to plead guilty? NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos will be here to break it down for us.

[Jeff Lewis]

With a home equity investment from HomeTab, you get access to your home equity in cash without monthly payments to use for whatever you'd like, from paying off debt to making renovations or handling emergency expenses. Receive your funds in just a few weeks, start pursuing your financial goals and start getting more out of life. See if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] subject to eligibility. Terms and conditions apply. That's hometap.com.

[Skechers Announcer]

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[SiriusXM Announcer]

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back. Joining us for this week's DATELINE roundup is DATELINE digital producer Veronica Mazzaiko. Hey, Veronica.

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

So for our first story, we're off to Boise, Idaho, where there was an important hearing last week in the case of Bryan Kohberger. He is the man accused of the 2022 fatal stabbings of four University of Idaho students. Bryan Kohberger has pleaded not guilty and as of now, is set to go to trial this summer. Veronica, bring us up to speed on this latest hearing.

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

Yeah, so there was an evidentiary hearing that took place over the span of three days last week. It was basically just for the judge to consider some of the defense motions attacking the prosecution's case. Anything from how they collected evidence to the credibility of their witnesses. And their arguments focused a lot on the investigator's DNA analysis.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And for people who don't remember, law enforcement initially connected Kohberger to the crimes through DNA on a Knife sheath found at the crime scene. They used genetic genealogy to connect that DNA to Kohberger by finding relatives of his in public online ancestry databases, which we're seeing so much of these days.

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

Coburger's defense, they basically are saying that this violated Coburger's privacy. They really just want that evidence excluded from trial. They said that the police should have had a more specific search warrant before they analyzed the DNA from the crime scene.

[Andrea Canning]

Someone we haven't heard much about until these hearings was a surviving roommate who was in the house at the time of the murder. She's expected to be a witness for the prosecution, but the defense says had questions about her.

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

So the defense is arguing that the surviving roommate isn't a credible witness. They allege that what the police reported in their affidavit to get the search warrants of CO Burger's DNA and property isn't actually the story that the roommate told police. The defense also says that the police withheld information about the witness's possible memory problems or impairment on the night of the murder.

[Andrea Canning]

She's not sure what she heard or saw was real or whether it was a dream. And she said things that were just absolutely untrue and couldn't have been true.

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

But the prosecution really pushed back on that.

[Andrea Canning]

We know it wasn't a dream because they found the evidence discovered the next morning. How did the judge react?

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

The judge has not made an official ruling yet, but seemed skeptical of these arguments.

[Commercial Announcer]

I can't find any case law that would support that idea, that somehow a warrant would be needed for DNA left at a crime scene.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, we'll keep an eye on what the judge decides on these various motions. For our next story, we're off to Los Angeles for an update on a case we first told you about last week. Monica Sementilli is on trial for allegedly orchestrating the 2017 murder of her husband, respected Hollywood hairstylist Fabio Simentilli. Monica's trial got started last Friday. How's it going?

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

So the prosecution gave its opening statements on Friday, and they really laid out their case against Monica. She was wiping away her tears as they called her the mastermind of the plot to kill Fabio. The defense, on the other hand, they are calling Robert Baker as their star witness. He was Monica's lover, and in 2023, he pleaded no contest to Fabio's murder and is currently serving a life sentence.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, and Robert Baker, you know, isn't trying to trade favors or anything. He maintains that Monica was never involved in the plot. How does the prosecution plan to dispute that.

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

Right. So they said in their opening statements that he's changed his story over the years and therefore he's an unreliable witness.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, lots of updates. Thank you so much, Veronica.

[Veronica Mazzaiko]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

Most of the cases we cover on Dateline end up with a defendant in court having to make a decision how to plead to the charges against them. And it probably seems obvious they can plead guilty or not guilty. But covering the case of murdered Hollywood hairstylist Fabio Simentelli these past few weeks, where one of the defendants pleaded no contest to the murder charge against it, reminded us there are some special kinds of pleas you can make. Here to walk us through it is NBC legal analyst Danny Savalos. Hey, Danny.

[Jay Young]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

So good to have you back. So to start, defendants, of course, have that. That choice, as we mentioned, guilty or not guilty, which seems like the obvious two choices.

[Jay Young]

Yes. And there are actually some other pleas that are much more rare, and those are the Alford plea and the no contest or nolo contendre ple.

[Andrea Canning]

What's the difference between the two?

[Jay Young]

In a no contest plea, you're basically not pleading guilty, you're not pleading anything, and you're sort of going limp and allowing the government or the court to find you guilty. In an Alford plea, the defendant is pleading guilty but maintaining their innocence. And they enter an Alford plea because they believe in their heart of hearts they're innocent, but the evidence is just so overwhelming.

[Andrea Canning]

Right. And some of our listeners might recognize that term Alford plea from two big cases. One of them is Michael Peterson, famously accused of murdering his second wife, Kathleen, after her body was found at the bottom of a staircase, he took an Alford plea. And then there was Pam Hupp, who our listeners might recognize from Keith's podcast. The thing about Pam, she was accused of killing a man she'd lured to her home. And before facing trial, she took an Alford plea, too. So why wasn't Alford plea right for them, Danny?

[Jay Young]

Yeah, For Peterson, he'd been convicted of murdering his wife, Kathleen. In 2003, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. In 2011, a new trial is ordered after a judge vacates his conviction. And then in 2017, he takes an Alford plea instead of going to face a second trial. So you can see the benefit to the state is that they get their guilty verdict. He's sentenced to time served, he's able to leave prison, and he can tell himself that the nature of my plea was that I am innocent, even though as Far as the government and the paperwork and the courts are concerned, I am guilty.

[Andrea Canning]

And Pam Hupp.

[Jay Young]

Yeah, Pam Hupp had entered an Alford plea to avoid the death penalty.

[Andrea Canning]

Who does it favor more then? Does it favor the defendant more cuz they're still gonna face some consequences?

[Jay Young]

Absolutely. There is a real world consequence of pleading no contest because you can later on dispute your liability if you're sued in civil court for the same conduct. That is not the case with an Alford plea. You're essentially foreclosed from even arguing against your guilt or liability in a later court proceeding. But other than that, there really isn't a whole lot that differentiates either an Alford plea or a no contest plea from a straight up guilty plea.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. I'm assuming you can't appeal this plea deal later on, is that true?

[Jay Young]

Yes, for the most part. You'll go to sentencing, you will be sentenced, and in fact you might get a worse sentence because you haven't accepted responsibility. And one of the key factors in sentencing at the state and federal level is whether or not the defendant is accepting responsibility after they've pleaded guilty.

[Andrea Canning]

So why does a judge allow it then if they don't like it? Is it because the person just won't budge and, you know, plead straight up guilty?

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jay Young]

You know, we've all sort of grown up with the idea of plea bargaining, but this is not something that courts are required to accept. And the federal rules, for example, expressly disfavor the idea of an Alford plea. Many judges, many courts, many states will not allow them. They are controversial because for people like victims, families who come to court, they want to see someone take accountability for their actions. It's understandable that they're frustrated because the person is not taking responsibility, even though they may be, at least on paper, pleading guilty.

[Andrea Canning]

And Danny, you are not just a defense attorney who plays one on tv, you are actually a defense attorney. I always think about when a defendant has to make that decision if a plea deal is being offered. I can't even imagine being an attorney with the defendant sitting in the room mulling over that life changing choice.

[Jay Young]

It's one of the most terrifying things for me. And I'm the attorney, I don't even have to make the choice. I have to deliver those options to a client, go to trial where the evidence is very strong, spend a lot of money, and then at the end you roll the dice. And if you're convicted, you will get a much worse sentence than if you plead guilty and enter into a plea bargain.

[Andrea Canning]

And imagine if you're innocent and you have to make that choice.

[Jay Young]

Absolutely.

[Andrea Canning]

Just very complex. Thank you so much, Danny, for breaking it down for us.

[Jay Young]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. If you want to learn more about the cases discussed in this and other episodes, head to our website@dateline truecrimeweekly.com and coming up this Friday on Dateline, Keith has an all new two hour mystery. She was a criminal mastermind on a deadly crime spree. She was also a mother. The inside story of Sante Kimes and her two very different sons. He could not believe what had happened because hadn't his mother told him a thousand times, we're innocent. We're innocent. Watch the Devil Wore White airing this Friday at 9, 8 Central on NBC or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. To get ad free listening for all of our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown. Kuroloff production and fact checking helped by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. Anything else, anyone? All right, thanks so much.

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