Holiday Re-Run: De-Influencing Jefferson Bethke

Summary

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De-Influenced with Dani + Jordan

Holiday Re-Run: De-Influencing Jefferson Bethke

Release Date: December 25, 2025

Guest: Jefferson Bethke

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Episode Overview

In this special holiday re-run, hosts Dani and Jordan welcome New York Times bestselling author, speaker, and viral content creator Jefferson Bethke. Known for challenging Christian and cultural norms, Bethke dives into topics from redefining family and fatherhood to male identity and generational legacy. This episode is especially meaningful for Jordan, who has admired Bethke’s work and personally found his teachings transformative for his own view on fatherhood and family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Jefferson Bethke and His Influence

• [00:10 - 05:25]
  • Jordan shares his excitement: "This is the first De-Influence episode. That is my episode... I chose the guest."
  • Dani and Jordan introduce Bethke as an author, Christian influencer (though Bethke finds the term ‘cringe’), and someone who went viral over a decade ago for a spoken word video on "Jesus > Religion."
  • Bethke recounts his journey from creating viral YouTube content to writing and focusing on family and relationships.

2. Viral Content and Evolving Faith

• [08:58 - 11:19]
  • Bethke describes his college crisis of faith, intellectual search, and eventual conversion to a personal relationship with Jesus.
  • His spoken word video "Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus" (over 60 million views) encapsulated his wrestling with tradition vs. authentic faith.
    • “Jesus is so unique that he's kind of climbing down the ladder to heaven, coming to get us, not saying, climb the ladder up, come to me.” – Jefferson Bethke [10:50]
  • Reflects on how his tone and approach have evolved since the viral video.

3. Upbringing, Trauma, and Empathy in Parenting

• [11:42 - 14:20]
  • Bethke shares his upbringing with a single mom, struggles with poverty, and how church community offered real support.
  • Emphasizes transforming suffering into an empathetic gift for others, especially in identifying and supporting overlooked kids and families.
    • “If you've gone through a really hard thing, I think that tends to be your gift you can give to the world.” – Jefferson Bethke [12:54]

4. Redefining Family: Team, Mission, and Western Culture’s Challenges

• [20:43 - 39:36]
  • Bethke’s book “Take Back Your Family” argues that families should function as teams, not loose collections of individuals competing for comfort and validation.
  • Critiques Western hyper-individualism:
    • “The family then becomes actually limiting to the individual. When I think the biblical argument... is that families are created to be teams.” – Jefferson Bethke [22:25]
  • Explains the generational, mission-based family model as seen in ancient cultures and contrasts it with the isolation of modern families.
  • Advocates that each child brings a unique gift or “missing piece” to the family.

5. Rhythms and Rituals: Formation over Function

• [61:03 - 66:56]
  • Defines “rhythms” as identity-shaping, recurring practices that build family culture and legacy (e.g., Shabbat dinners, morning prayers).
  • Shares practical tips:
    • End-of-year family summits
    • Simple rituals like repeating daily affirmations with his kids
  • On Western resistance to rhythm:
    • “We’re so anti-rhythmic because we are so addicted to controlling our environment...” – Jefferson Bethke [62:19]

6. Cultural Examples & Learning from Other Systems

• [54:16 - 59:10]
  • Explores Jewish and Mormon family traditions as models of generational thinking and strong family culture.
  • Highlights the Rockefellers as an example of legacy building – passing down resources for new missions through generations, not just wealth or cloning past trajectories.

7. Modern Male Identity & ‘Fighting Shadows’ (Bethke’s Latest Book)

• [69:33 - 79:27]
  • Introduction to Fighting Shadows – addresses “seven dominant shadows” (lust, apathy, ambition, etc.) that obscure men’s true calling.
  • Jordan and Bethke discuss men’s crisis of identity as traditional roles shift:
    • “Historically, cultures defined men and women by virtues, not roles... But we’ve flipped it, and now roles are fragile and insecure.” – Jefferson Bethke [76:27]
  • Advocates for defining masculinity and femininity by enduring virtues rather than outdated, rigid “roles.”

8. Marriage Partnerships & Team Dynamics

• [80:50 - 84:59]
  • Dani and Jordan open up about their own journey as spouses and business partners, how ego and traditional scripts required re-examination.
  • Jordan: “Just helped me understand. Okay. Like, yeah, I don’t have to worry... this is the most important thing that I’m doing for my wife.” [84:25]
  • Bethke praises their approach and encourages a team mentality where roles shift as needed, guided by shared mission.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jordan’s Dream Episode:

  • “This is the first De-Influence episode. That is my episode. I chose the guest.” – Jordan [04:06]

• On Influence vs. ‘Christian Influencer’:

  • “When someone calls you an influencer, do you love it or you kind of like...” – Dani
  • “Oh, it's so cringe.” – Jefferson Bethke [06:26]

• On Rhythms and Identity:

  • “Rhythms are identity shaping. They're not routine... like traditions, but internalized over time, they form who your family is.” – Jefferson Bethke [64:45]

• On Western Family Shifts:

  • “Post-1945, no one needed each other anymore... Pre-1800, if you did not depend on your family team, you would die.” – Jefferson Bethke [46:34]

• On Men Losing Traditional Roles:

  • “When men feel like they're not needed... men’s identity around work has gotten deeply reshuffled. And I don’t think that's for the wrong—it’s just they need to understand what has happened.” – Jefferson Bethke [74:12]

• On Celebrity Pastors:

  • “People with really, really large followings and who write books and are also pastors have to be sensitive to the optics that are true about them.” – Jefferson Bethke [91:05-92:19]

• Hot Take on Taylor Swift:

  • “Now, the whole Christian thing of, like, people being like, she’s a witch and all that stuff... You're all idiots. Just like, it bothers me so much...” – Jefferson Bethke [87:25]

• Would Jesus Use Social Media?

  • “I don’t think you can make the argument... that Paul wouldn’t [use social media]. Paul is very clearly using every point of technology available to him in the first century.” – Jefferson Bethke [94:22]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Meet Jefferson & Episode Set-Up: [00:10 – 05:25]
• Bethke’s Viral Beginnings & Faith Story: [08:58 – 11:19]
• On Upbringing, Empathy & Parenting Approach: [11:42 – 14:20]
• Deconstructing Western Individualism in Families: [20:43 – 23:02]
• Bethke’s Team Model for Families: [29:15 – 32:29]
• Mission, Pillars, and Family Meetings: [33:47 – 36:47]
• Children as Unique Team Members: [38:34 – 39:35]
• Key Moments in Western Family Evolution: [45:44 – 48:51]
• Gender Roles, Virtues, & Modern Male Challenges: [69:30 – 79:27]
• Marriage as Partnership & Team: [80:50 – 84:59]
• Rapid Fire Hot Takes: [86:11 – 93:57]
• Would Jesus/Paul Use Social Media?: [94:22 – 96:25]

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Conclusion

This packed episode offers a mix of personal narrative, cultural critique, and practical advice—blending humor, honest self-reflection, and faith. Bethke’s central thesis is that modern families, and especially men, face a crisis of identity rooted in the loss of clear mission, community, and generational legacy. Through books like Take Back Your Family and Fighting Shadows, Bethke argues for a resilient, team-based family structure—rich with meaning, traditions, and long-term vision.

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Where to Find Jefferson Bethke:

• Instagram: @jeffersonbethke (most active)
• Books: Available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble (Take Back Your Family, Fighting Shadows)

Transcript

[Ad Read Host]

Foreign.

[Jefferson Bethke]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Danny]

Hello, and welcome back to your favorite podcast, D Influenced. Guys. We're stirring it up a little bit today. We're getting crazy.

[Jordan]

We're changing it up.

[Danny]

Y' all are in for a treat, and I'll tell you why this is a treat. First of all, we have a special guest. I've known this person for 10 years, so crazy. But the most special thing about today's guest or today's episode is this is Jordan's dream episode.

[Jordan]

It really is.

[Danny]

So you guys know we have Daisy Kent. We have Jess from Love is Blind. We have Brittany. We have all the gals. It's a great girly time. But now Jordan gets to have his moment. And y' all know he's into conspiracy theories. He's into things that are weird. Like, he just.

[Podcast Producer]

His.

[Danny]

He has a mind of his own. And so he got to bring on one of his special, like, guest requests today. It's actually happening.

[Jordan]

This is big because I need everyone to go in the comments and say that they love this episode because I have a whole guest list.

[Danny]

He wants to bring, like, somebody from the FBI, someone from. For Area 51.

[Jordan]

There's a lot of internal debate that. That Jordan's guests don't fit the brand of the podcast, but I would argue that they do.

[Podcast Producer]

No, they.

[Jordan]

I think they do need to rally the support behind me. And our podcast producer reads all of the comments, so I need everyone to give this episode five star and go in the comment section.

[Danny]

No, I think y' all are going to love our guest. Okay, so tell us about who we have today.

[Jordan]

Okay, so I've referenced him a lot. His name is Jefferson Bethy. He's a New York Times bestselling author, and he wrote the book take back your family. So I guess. When did I meet Jeff? I guess I met Jeff through you.

[Podcast Producer]

So.

[Danny]

So Jeff is technically, like a viral content creator. He is a Christian. I don't know, Christian influencer, maybe. Influencer, author. That is a Christian. You can't put him into a box at all. Because, in fact, I feel like he defies a lot of the Christian norms, and he writes about that a lot. He actually went viral. I don't remember what year this is. He'll speak. Speak about it probably 15 years ago, maybe 10 years ago on YouTube for a video that he. It was like a poem that he recited about Jesus over religion, why he believes in Jesus. Like, the concept of Jesus over these. Man made, you know, religious. Yeah. Religions. And so he went viral. I Mean, that video probably has hundreds of millions of views, if I had to guess, especially now. And so then he kind of like entered this world of being an influencer. And 10 years ago, when I started my YouTube channel, we connected because he was always so supportive of my videos. I think there weren't a lot of, like, Christians on the Internet. So when you saw another one, you were like, hello.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, hello.

[Danny]

Like, we support you. So he was always shouting out my channel. I would shout out his.

[Podcast Producer]

His channels, his videos.

[Danny]

And so it's really cool because then once we got married, I was like, you got to meet this guy. Like, he's amazing. And y' all became buds.

[Jordan]

Yeah. So he gave me his book, Take Back youk Family, invited me to this kind of like, dad's Mastermind community. And I was like, no, it's not super relevant. It was when you were pregnant with Stella. And then I read his book towards the end of your pregnancy with Stella. And his book kind of changed my life and my whole depiction of fatherhood in so many ways. Because what he argues for is like, hey, your job is not to be a babysitter to your kids. It's to be a coach and to, like, develop them over time. He talks a lot about, like, multi generational living and the role that grandparents play in the family. And so I'm excited for this episode because I think it's going to be very, like, practical and value packed for someone trying to raise, like, young kids, which I think is a lot of people in the audience.

[Podcast Producer]

It's gonna be amazing.

[Danny]

We're about to change some lives.

[Jordan]

Change some lives.

[Podcast Producer]

All right.

[Danny]

I think he's about to walk in foreign. Nailed it.

[Jordan]

We got Jefferson Bethke today. So listen, not to put any pressure on you for this episode, okay. This is the first De Influence episode. That is my episode.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Wow.

[Jordan]

I chose the guest.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Thank you.

[Jordan]

I rallied to have you on Danny.

[Danny]

No, obviously.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. She. You voted up. She voted down.

[Jordan]

Last episode we have, like, date Daisy Kent.

[Jefferson Bethke]

What does that conversation look like when he's like, hey, let's. Let's have someone really excited.

[Danny]

I was really excited that it was someone that was normal because he always wants these, like, crazy, outlandish people that are like, that work on Area 51.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. Like the blurry creatures type people.

[Danny]

Yeah. So he was like, Jeff Beth. He was like, oh, great.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I've never.

[Danny]

I'm here.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I've never been more proud to be called normal. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jordan]

How's the press tour going?

[Jefferson Bethke]

It's good. It's crazy. Book Tour, press tour. We're doing press podcast, all the stuff. But I mean, I'm. Right now my buddy Matt is out of camera. We're going. We've been in like six cities in six days. We're about halfway through Dallas for a little bit, which would be fun. Then we go to. Apparently we go to Fort somewhere in Indiana that I think only 3,000 people live. And apparently it's a. It's an event for 500 people. So I'm about to pull. What is that, 20% of the 15% of the town. Let's go. I'm excited.

[Jordan]

So we introduced you a little bit before. We kind of pre recorded, prerecorded an intro. For someone who doesn't know Jefferson Bethke, how do you explain yourself and what you do?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Quickly, I say, I started making YouTube videos back in 2011. 2012. That's how we first met. Oh, gee. YouTube talked about that. Yes. Literally before. It's like it's gone through so many iterations. But we were back in the early days. And then for me, in the same way that you've kind of evolved, it evolved towards more like writing, speaking, kind of entrepreneurship, businesses. So I don't really do YouTube anymore, but I really care about family. I care about fatherhood, I care about men, I care about relationships. And so me and my wife do stuff in that kind of space.

[Danny]

Do you consider yourself a Christian influencer?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Oh, I guess. Define your terms a little bit. I mean, Christian.

[Danny]

Yes, you define your terms.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I mean, it's always like, I would love to. You're so much more in this than I am. So I would love to hear like, influencers certainly do. I hope I'm someone of influence. Yes. I feel like I'm trying to steward. Like there's eyeballs, Certain amount of eyeballs. I want to steward that. I want to honor that. But I also feel like technically everyone is influencing at different scales. There's that as well. But I would say Christian influencer. The only thing I would just in the same way that I don't know if you feel this way, but when someone calls you an influencer, do you love it or you kind of like.

[Danny]

Oh, it's so cringe.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, okay. So I feel the same way with Christian influencer. I'm like, and especially once you start bringing God into the mix. Yeah. It's like, yeah, let me show you my 50% off code for the Bible.

[Ad Read Host]

Fair enough.

[Jefferson Bethke]

You know what I mean? It's a little weird. It's a little weird.

[Jordan]

Consider yourself a Christian author.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Then, yeah, 100. I would. I would own that one. I would own that one.

[Jordan]

Okay, so before we get into, like, everything that you write about, you know, where. Tell us where you're from, how you found Jesus, like, how you even got started on the path. Almost like D influenced Jeff.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Oh, okay. Okay. Born and raised, Seattle, Washington. You know, I actually threw some through some shade this morning at Oklahoma. I was in Oklahoma City this morning, and they stole our Thunder. I don't know if you know, like, you know, literally, like, they stole the Sonics and they called them the Thunder and they drafted Kevin Durant. So. Big Seattle guy, born and raised. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Oh, yeah. UT. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So, like, we love him because the Sonics actually drafted him and then five minutes later, they stole our team. So there you go. But, yeah, from. From Seattle until I was like, 20 something. My wife and Alyssa. My wife, Alyssa and I, we met at a friend's wedding, and we got married, started having kids, and then she was. She. When we started dating, she was living in Hawaii, so we dated long distance. So we moved out there. Once we got married, she really wanted to stay there, and we've been there for a decade, and moving to Franklin, Tennessee, in four weeks, which is awesome. But how do I start following Jesus?

[Ad Read Host]

College.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So I kind of grew up in a Christian context. I'm sure, like a lot of people in the west in the early 2000s, you know the answers. You know, right questions and right answers. For me, though, it was like, it wasn't real. Like, I wouldn't say there was anything about my life that was focusing in that trajectory of that perspective and just doing other things. College. I played baseball in college. I go to a little school called Point Loma Nazarene in San Diego, and in a span of like, three weeks, got kicked off the baseball team, got put on academic probation, and then my first serious girlfriend broke up with me, which is like a decently bad two weeks, in my opinion. Decently bad. So I'm the personality where I kind of have to get like. Like, just shocked to the system to, like, pay it to, like, wake up and kind of go meta for a second, be like, what? What am I doing here? And those were the life circumstances that did that. And I'm a little weird. Like, a lot of people that have come to faith, you know, a friend told them or whatever, I'm the weird guy where I just immediately went to the library and I was like, I need answers. And so I just checked out, like, 17 books and I went back to my dorm room and read for a few weeks. And honestly, that was how I sort of walk with the Lord. I just was like, oh, man. The Jesus that I thought I knew about and this, you know, Swedish man with long straight hair who's like, a hippie and really nice, you know, I mean, I was like, I don't think that's quite the Middle Eastern first century guy I'm seeing in here. Full of love and grace and truth, but really fierce and really tender and really gentle. And so, yeah, that was really, like, really impacted me and woke me up. And that was 15 years ago now.

[Jordan]

So how far between you finding Jesus through that path and then the viral.

[Jefferson Bethke]

The video's like, five minutes. It's like, Jesus. Yeah, I should have chilled out a little bit.

[Danny]

I already had that, like, view of religion so early on.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, it was. Honestly, I think it was about two years later, you know, But. Yeah, but I think the reason why those videos, looking back on it, had kind of gotten impactful, I think, is because I was wrestling with a lot of that stuff in my own journey. I was like, starting to walk with the Lord, follow Jesus and be like, a lot of this stuff is not adding up. There's like, I'm seeing this, I'm seeing this, but I'm feeling this and reading this. And so then I was just kind of, like, expressing through the spoken word stuff. And then. Yeah. Which Matt's also the one that filmed it. Did you ever.

[Ad Read Host]

Wow.

[Jefferson Bethke]

He's filmed every video for me for, like, 13 years.

[Podcast Producer]

Wild.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Imagine that. Can you imagine if every video you guys have ever made for the last decade and a half was one person? There you go.

[Danny]

How many views does that video have?

[Jefferson Bethke]

You YouTube's in the 30s, I think, and then Facebook has about the same. So 60 or 70 or million views.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah, y', all.

[Danny]

This video was epic at the time. I have to ask. Y' all need to go watch it if you haven't. My biggest question that I asked you, like, when you first met in Utah, was, do you believe everything that you said in that video?

[Jordan]

To this day, that was a shock to the situation.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Danny]

And tell people what the video is about.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. So it's called why I Hate Religion, Beloved Jesus. And it's basically this juxtaposition of kind of. And again, a lot of language. We're gonna get a little technical here for a second. Is cultural. And evolves. Meaning words will mean something for a particular period of time. And then as people kind of move and shift in a Certain way the word takes on, like, baggage. Right.

[Danny]

Always like, slay. Like, slay was a bad thing. Now it's like slay.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Exactly. And so it's like, words do that, and that's culture, and that's fine. At least in that moment, I definitely felt like religion was a word associated with just kind of like earning your way to God, doing all the right things, climbing a ladder to heaven, cleaning yourself up, making yourself more righteous. And again, that's very opposite of the actual gospel message in the scriptures.

[Ad Read Host]

Right.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Jesus is so unique that he's kind of like climbing down the ladder to heaven, coming to get us, not saying, climb the ladder up, come to me. And so I just wanted to really paint that black and white juxtaposition. And so that's what the video is about. Do I agree fully with everything I said I'd have to go back through it line by line? I don't. I certainly. Probably. Well, it's weird, right? Because it's like, you grow, you get older. I feel like the tone. I'm like, ah, it's a little cringe. The tone. I watch it now, you know, but.

[Danny]

At the time, it was so cool.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, exactly. How do you feel when you watch your YouTube videos from 13 years ago?

[Danny]

I can't. I can't even watch them.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, that's literally. Especially the poems. Some people still play those at churches before I go up on stage and I just, like, have to, like, exit the room. This is so, like, let's not. Yeah, I barely had facial hair at that age, you know? Like, it was just like. It was.

[Jordan]

You can't even listen to last week's.

[Danny]

Episode of the podcast. We're like, oh, what do we say.

[Jordan]

To a single episode we've ever recorded? Like, I'll have friends come up to me and be like, oh, you talked about this? And I was like, did I?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, Doubt. Exactly.

[Danny]

Well, can I ask you something? So you found your faith when you were in college.

[Podcast Producer]

Then what was your childhood like or.

[Danny]

Your home life like? And how has that influenced how you raise your kids and what you write about to this day?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Great question.

[Jordan]

Great question.

[Jefferson Bethke]

That's a deep one. We could probably answer that. For the rest, I would say so. I was raised by a single mom. Shout out to my mom if you're watching. She's one of those moms that watches everything. What's up, mom? She's amazing. I love my mom. She's a hero. She's incredible. But at the end of the day, too, also, very rough upbringing. Like, she was, you know, she had some mental illness that was a lot more serious then. She's amazing. Has kind of, you know, gotten health now, mentally healthy now, Social Security, section 8, food stamps, you name it. Like, we were like one click above homeless my entire life. What's funny is when you are raised in that environment in a normalized way where, like, they never even. My mom and dad were never married. They never even got. So they never got divorced. It was just always me and my mom. There is a weird normalization with it where you're just like, I don't know anything different, you know what I mean? Until you kind of get older and you see some friends and you start kind of taking notes. But how did that affect me? So the cool part is I have a very. A lot of people don't have very good view of the church, right, from like, their childhood or youth group days or whatever. Like, you know, oh, I got burned by her. Or at least that's the common message you get on the Internet. You go on Twitter. That's the common message. For me, it was the opposite. For me, it was like, man, they showed up big. Like, we're getting groceries on our doorstep all the time. Like, other fathers of, like, friends of mine in the church are taking me on camping trips, taking me to baseball games. So I have, like, such a very, very warm view of church, certainly in my childhood. But it was never real. Like I mentioned, it was just kind of like swirling around me, if that makes sense. And life was pretty tough at home. But how does that affect how I raise the kids now and stuff? I feel like for me, and almost what I just said, I'm very sensitive. I think I'm gonna say this in a Christian way. I think the Lord uses if you've gone through suffering as a gift you can have towards other people, if you've healed. But you could also say that, I think even without the Lord, meaning if you've gone through a really hard thing, I think that tends to be your gift you can give to the world. And so for me, like, I'm hypersensitive to, like, a single parent kid, or I'm sensitive to, like, if they feel left out, or I'm sensitive big time to like, kind of lower income families and if they can't afford baseball equipment, like, I couldn't if they could, you know, stuff like this. And so that's how I think how it affects us. And my family is like, we, you know, we have resources now. Me and Alyssa are married and healthy and so we're constantly, as a family on a mission to kind of look for those opportunities, look for those things. And so for anyone listening, I would say that too. Like, you know, think about if there's hard things you've gone in your life, you have to heal first. You can't use them as a strength until you've healed properly. But if you. But if you have healed in them and done the hard work, then it's like, man, that is actually. Don't block that out. That's actually kind of a conduit of where I think you can be used really greatly in the world.

[Jordan]

Well, and also, I mean, just to state the obvious, you wrote a best selling book about the role of fathers in families. You know, and I think that that is like using suffering to study and dig deep into something and then help others, you know, understand their role in the family.

[Danny]

Can I. Yeah.

[Jordan]

Are you.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I love you guys. A dynamic. By the way, this is mine. Eliza's marriage to a T. 20% in what? Just like. You got thoughts, he's got thoughts. We all got thoughts. I love it. I love it.

[Podcast Producer]

All right, so every time someone asks me how we run Divi, I always laugh a little because people assume there's always been this giant team of elves behind the curtain doing everything. And look, we do have an incredible team, but in the beginning, it was literally me, Jordan, a newborn, and a dream. And the only reason any of it was even possible was Shopify. I mean, this is the most literal way to Shopify took us from serum and a notebook to a full brand. It let us set up a store, choose a theme, customize it to feel like us, and start selling without needing 10 different logins or a staff of 12. Shopify was basically the business partner. We didn't have to feed, pay a salary, or remind to answer emails. And now, watching what Shopify has become, it's wild. You've got AI tools like Shopify Magic and Sidekick that basically act like your little entrepreneurial copilot. Reports, content, ideas, directions, editing images. It's like having an employee who never gets tired and never takes pto. I wish I could say the same about myself. My favorite part, though. We can run the whole business from anywhere. On our phone, at the lake house, in an airport, in the carpool line. And because Shopify integrates with every major social platform, we get to meet customers where they actually are. When you guys shop directly from our channels, that Shopify, making it effortless behind the scenes.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And.

[Podcast Producer]

And here's the real tea. Anyone can do this. If you've got a passion project, a product you've been sitting on, or you just want to dip a toe into entrepreneurship, Shopify removes the guesswork. Whether it's a side hustle or the next big empire, Shopify is the best place to start and grow business just like ours. So if you're ready to start building your own thing, merch products, or that idea that you keep talking about at dinner, head to shopify.com jani and make it happen. All right, so this time of year always makes me take stock of two things. The people I love and the habits I've let slide. A little holiday food, holiday stress. It's the whole thing. And every December I end up thinking, man, I wish I had a clearer picture of what's actually going on in my body so I can get ahead of it instead of reacting later. That's why I chose Function. It's the only health platform I've found that gives you data most people can never get and the insights to actually do something about it. Inside function. You get access to over 160 lab tests annually. Hormones, toxins, heart health, inflammation, stress. Basically things you'd never get in one place otherwise. And if you want to go even deeper, you can add MRI and chest CT scans for an additional fee and everything gets tracked securely over time. It's the closest thing I've seen to a near 360 view of what's happening inside your body. And it's why top health leaders like Dr. Mike Hyman, Dr. Andrew Huberman and Dr. Jeremy London are all behind Function. And because it's December, let me just say this. If you're thinking about a meaningful gift this year. Gift Health. Not stuff. You're not just giving a box someone will forget in a month. You're giving clarity, peace of mind and honesty. More years of feeling good for the person who has everything, this is one gift they'll actually use. I'm giving it to the people closest to me because I want to have as many healthy years together as possible. And look, I use this and you should too. Own your health for $365 a year. That's a dollar a day. Learn more by using my link. Visit www.functionhealth.com Danny or give gift code Danny25 for a 25 credit towards your membership at Starbucks. Full and part time baristas get comprehensive health care benefits so they have the support they need in every part of their lives. From early morning runs to school pickups to late night auditions. Because At Starbucks, comprehensive healthcare coverage, including dental, vision, and mental health care is. Learn [e-mail] partners we've never actually talked.

[Jordan]

About this, but are you, you know, did you ever get in touch with your dad? Are you close to your dad?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. So me and my dad. So I was. It was kind of the custody thing when I was younger. I would go see him every other weekend. And now it's just like a cordial relationship is what I would say. But it's like, you know, it's. It's tough. My dad has. Did not make the best choices in his life. So it's like, you know, a phone call to my dad feels like it's lasting three hours. I ask every question known to man to try to relationally connect, and then it's like, oh, 47 seconds went by. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you're like, yikes. So, yeah. So, like, we have a cordial relationship. I love him. He's awesome. But it's not like, super deep, if that makes sense. Yeah.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah.

[Danny]

Okay.

[Jordan]

One other like, like, preface question. Cause we're going to dig into your book later. You're an enneagram 8.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I am. Can you tell?

[Jordan]

Hard 8.

[Danny]

100%.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I'm an 8 with an 8. 8 with an 8 wing.

[Danny]

Do you think you're a healthy 8?

[Jefferson Bethke]

That's a question probably for Alyssa, not for me. But yes, Yes, I do think I am.

[Danny]

I think the eights are, like, really hard for me.

[Jefferson Bethke]

No, I agree. I agree. And most people say that, like, eights get a bad rap because they're just jackasses. Can I say that, or do I have to believe that? That's probably the first time I've sworn all year. But they are like. It's like. It's like, dude, chill out. Be nice. Be kind. So I would hope I'm semi those things, which then maybe makes me think I'm somewhat of a healthy eight. But I like being an eight. Man. I really see the world through, like, the challenging lens. And just like, why do we do this? Why are you doing that? I don't understand. Which. Basically every single one of my books, every one of my books is like, why do we do this?

[Jordan]

And this is how I've described you on other podcasts is I've said, listen, you know, this is someone who understands what's a cultural norm in that moment, Right? So when Hustle Culture and Gary Vee were exactly that culture, you're like, hey, I'm going to write a book called To Hell with the Hustle that says why this is actually really dangerous. When Covid years hit and the family was being torn down, you were like, I'm going to teach families how to take them back.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Totally.

[Jordan]

You got a new book, which we'll talk about in a second, but I think eights are the only ones who can do that.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I'll receive that because what are you guys, by the way?

[Danny]

Three.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I. I see that one. I see that. Guys. We are so stereotypical, our numbers.

[Danny]

I know, but it kind of makes it powerful.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Danny]

So whenever you're writing your books, especially when it came to take back your family, since maybe like there was a lot that you wanted to infuse into your family that you didn't have growing up, like, where are you finding this information or your inspiration or these resources that actually help grow your family?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Great question on the macro. Tons and tons of reading at probably a pretty crazy level of just the research of sociology, ideas, tips, et cetera. I took a ton of wisdom in my. I do take a ton of wisdom in my family from business and sports books because as I allude to in the book, like, like, healthy teams are what families need to be. Right. And the west has kind of over cranked that to making the individual the most important thing at the expense of the family. Because there's no really shared mission in a family. And so when there's no shared mission, then it kind of devolves down to just the individual's comfort and consumption as the main individuals.

[Danny]

Sorry, can you say that again?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Individual, like the end. So how would I say this? So the.

[Jordan]

Explain it like we're five.

[Danny]

My brain's about to explode.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So, like, individualism is one of the highest ideals of Western culture, which is a great thing, by the way, because we're.

[Danny]

But we're focused so much on ourselves.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes. And it's a great thing.

[Jordan]

Like tell us how you would see that playing out in culture today.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Well, I think, like, we can go on the macro level goes all the way back to like literally like the Declaration of Independence of caring about individual rights, caring about like the. The individual vastly important. And so all I'm saying, I say I think that value has swung so far that we see in our culture today that now anything that's a hindrance to the individual that, you know, pre. 50 years ago, pre 30 years ago, we would have called, oh, hey, maybe if something's limiting you that might make you grow, that might stretch you, that might make you have to build some grit. We've swung so far that now, anything that, like, oppresses the individual is evil, wrong, and should be stopped. Right? And so. And that's really, really. My argument in that book is that's really, really damaging to the family because the family then becomes actually like. And this is. Western culture certainly believes this, that the family is almost limiting to the individual. When I think the biblical argument, and certainly the ancient argument, even outside of a religious argument, is that families are created to be teams. Right. That they. There's roles on teams. Right. Just like there is with the warriors and the Patriots and all these sports teams and different. Different capacities and roles and giftings and talents. And that this team. And I'm coming from a Christian perspective, so I absolutely believe that God has put a husband and a wife, or even if you're a single parent or a blended family, he's put your family together with your particular kids because the world needs that team to go do a thing that they could not do by themselves. Like, that's the. That's the definition of a team, is that you're trying to accomplish something that if you were just by yourself, you wouldn't be able to do. Right. Yeah.

[Jordan]

Totally understand. Okay, I'm gonna.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I'm gonna.

[Jordan]

Before we get into the book, I really want to set this up right because, like, I want to dig into the book.

[Danny]

Wait, which book?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, because I have a new one, the Man.

[Danny]

But I want to go over the man one too.

[Jordan]

But yeah, yeah, take back your family so much. Before we do that, I want to give, like, a little bit more preface on Jefferson. So number one is I. I really want to ask a simple question. What was your GPA in high school or college?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Do you really want to know? I really under two at both of those. I got kicked out of high school.

[Danny]

By yourself?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, I got kicked out.

[Jordan]

You didn't apply yourself. That's insane, because I have been asking you to launch a newsletter for years. He reads the best information.

[Danny]

He talks about. You're probably the most influential person outside.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I'm not de.

[Podcast Producer]

Influential.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Not d. Influence.

[Danny]

I'll receive that out of the Lord.

[Jefferson Bethke]

That means. That means the world to me. Thank you.

[Jordan]

And here's why I want to back up before we get into the book, is because I think that one of the things that you do incredibly well is you take on.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So.

[Jordan]

So you are a Christian. You've identified yourself as a Christian authority. But what a lot of Christian authors do is they really kind of like, they don't engage with culture, cultures over here, and Christianity is over here. It Creates a rift where people get funneled into the church and then they have no impact almost with the outside world, where that's just not how it should be. That's not even what Jesus would want. Right. And I think what you've really inspired me to do is lean into different topics and say, okay, well here's what this author from the New York Times or the Atlantic is going to say about this. But here's how I'm going to engage with it from my worldview as a believer. 100% Jesus being real. And so I think you do that so incredibly well. But I'm shocked that your GPA was under two.

[Jefferson Bethke]

It was, dude. Oh, I was getting kicked out. I had to. I did freshman year twice.

[Jordan]

Because you shout out incredibly well read. I want to ask you about, like a lot of what you do is like you debunk, you know, like cultural norms.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I did get on the SATs, by the way. I just need to support myself. So, you know, there you go, There you go.

[Jordan]

So how do you change, choose like the topics that you're going to lean into?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Great question. Like with books and what I'm thinking about in that season when you decided.

[Jordan]

That hustle culture was rampant and it was actually really detrimental, There's a variety of things you could choose in terms of conversations. You've chosen hustle. Yeah, well, Jesus over religion.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. That was like og Yep. And then kind of some like young dating, engaged stuff for a bit. We wrote that stuff. Hustle, family, now manhood. Yeah.

[Jordan]

Okay, so how do you lean into the topics that you're going to cover? Is it more of a conviction spirituality thing or is it based on. I hate to say this, but, like, what's trending on Google in the sense that like, this is such a cultural conversation.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, totally.

[Jordan]

That someone from the church needs to engage in the conversation.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I think that's a simple answer. Actually. It might surprise you. I honestly write books based on just what I've been personally wrestling at the last two to four years. That makes sense. So it's like I write Jesus religion because I was wrestling with that. I wrote Love that last, which is like our relationship book to like kind of young college students when, like I was three years out of that, you know, I mean. And then hustle, same thing. Like I was kind of pushing myself in my twenties where I was like, man, this is not sustainable. I need rhythms and rituals and a spiritual formation based life. So I wrote that. And then all of a sudden we have kids running around and I'm like, what the heck? Like, you know, like, how do we meld this team together wrote that it.

[Danny]

Almost, like, holds you accountable to research and figure it out.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes.

[Danny]

You know, that's kind of like, when I went through my hair loss journey, it was kind of the same thing where I was like, okay, I can.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Either start going down the rabbit hole.

[Danny]

You start going down, and I'm like, you can either cry in bed about this, or I can become, like, an expert in scalp health and, like, figure it out.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And how many people can say that, by the way, you know? Yeah.

[Danny]

Experts in scalp health, you know, big time.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Big time.

[Jordan]

Do you feel like you try on. On all three of the ones? I guess the manhood one is too new to know. But, like, on the family conversation, on the Hustle conversations, Do you think that you were early to the pendulum swing backwards? Just right time, right place, or kind of late to the game and.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Good question. Yeah.

[Jordan]

Is because if you're too early, no.

[Jefferson Bethke]

One cares in terms of hate. Yeah. Because you'll be speaking. No one agrees with you and sees the pain yet.

[Jordan]

Right.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Like, you.

[Jordan]

You wrote to hell with the hustle and people were still in the.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I got really lucky, though, with the pandemic on that one. Yeah. A year later, that happened, and everyone was like, I mean, that book sales shot. I'm like, yeah. I could not have predicted that.

[Danny]

Perfect timing.

[Jordan]

So do you think, like, what. What. What have you learned from just the timing of going into these conversations?

[Jefferson Bethke]

That's a good question, because you kind of did it backwards from the, like, if people might be really disagree with you again, maybe it's. They, like, I don't even consider that. I'm like, let's talk about it. Let's. Let's argue right now.

[Danny]

I'm down, so eight.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. You know, and I'm not super intense about it. I'm just like, everything's up for conversation. I love that premise of life. And Alyssa doesn't like that premise of life. A lot of people don't like that premise. She's like 9, so she's just like, any conflict. We're an amazing marriage, guys. I swear. Yeah. But no, the eight and the nine is a very intense.

[Danny]

They're like.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. It's like they're opposite on conflict, and that's really tough. Really? Tell me.

[Jordan]

I also think, you know, and I'm really not trying to build you up. I'm trying to kind of identify what's original about you when I like that too.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Am I original?

[Jordan]

I feel like you're writing about very different conversations at the church.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. And I'm trying to. Yeah, I agree with that.

[Jordan]

So have you gotten pushback, You're a Christian author.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

Self. Identified. Have you gotten pushback from Christians on any of the topics that you've tackled?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I'm blanking on my subtitle to take back your family because it's like a four year old book now.

[Jordan]

Or two about the nuclear.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. But I basically, I not knock the nuclear family. And that, that was, that was a. That was a landmine that I kind of threw out there for fun.

[Danny]

Oh, I thought I got DMS about that. I'm like, you have to read the book.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Exactly. It makes total sense.

[Jordan]

Yeah, but.

[Jefferson Bethke]

But that one like that stuff for sure. And I definitely stepped on some landmines. But I love it. I love it. I'm like, actually, like when I'm kind of bored, I'm like, let's just throw some. Exactly.

[Danny]

I love that.

[Jordan]

That's awesome. Okay, let's get into take back your family. So I want to first.

[Danny]

Oh, take back your family.

[Jefferson Bethke]

We're going. We're going to take out your family and fighting shadows. We're doing all of it, baby.

[Danny]

Oh, that's the one you want about.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Let's talk about the catalog.

[Danny]

Okay. Let's go through it all. I'm ready for it.

[Jordan]

The reason I want to take. Talk about take back your family. It's my favorite book. I haven't read the new one yet.

[Jefferson Bethke]

You have to record tomorrow's thing that we're doing.

[Jordan]

Yep. So it's my favorite book that you've written. It's really impacted the way I view raising my family. Developing a team, switching out from father to the father figure, being a babysitter, more of a coach.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I'm using that tomorrow with the fellas.

[Jordan]

I want to ask, like, what inspired you to get into that conversation first?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. So that one was. You've met Jeremy. Jeremy and April are like our closest mentor friends of ours. And they're just a really unique family. You know, everything you've been even saying about me, I hope aspirationally is true. But of him, it's true, like right now. And he's just so out of the box. Such an interesting thinker. But the main thing that really turned the tide is he just, he spent a lot of time in Israel in the Middle east. And it's kind of funny when you just live outside of a certain country that has a very, very particular value set and be like, oh, the rest of the world doesn't really live like this and believe like this with family. And that's. And that was really it. Like, that kind of like starts pulling the thread and then that's like, it's off to the races of like, oh, you keep pulling on that meaning.

[Jordan]

He found that US families were very.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Very weird, very individualistic. Didn't have, it didn't have any generational aspect or vision to their, you know, like, again, modern day, you go to Israel, you go to the Middle east, you go to Morocco, wherever they would in general, if you were to say, hey, tell me about the word family, or paint a picture of the word family, or go in your household and show me a picture of your family. Most of them would go to the fireplace and show you literally like a nine generation 172 descendant picture. And you're like, that's just. We would not answer. We would literally not answer it like that. You come and you ask America that and it would be like, the fireplace picture is literally like the two parents, the two kids, a white picket fence, maybe a dog, maybe the kids got helmets, maybe a home school, I don't know. Right? It's just like, it's a very different picture. And it's really. There's a lot of subtleties in there, but it's based in consumption and retainment and safety. We have to wrestle with this as parents, meaning the high. Like parents in the west think they're doing a very, very, very good job if they, if they keep their kids entertained, like we keep them busy, we think that's doing a good job. And if we keep them safe, like, we think that's a paramount value, which it's paramount in the sense of. Of course, safety is important, but no, no one, no coach on a sports team would ever say, safety is the goal of why we're all together.

[Jordan]

Right?

[Jefferson Bethke]

It's like a byproduct of just being a healthy team. The mission is the goal. Finding clarity on what you're doing together, trying to extract roles and different natures of all the kids. And how fun is that, by the way? Right? Like, how fun is that to look at a kid and be like, why did God put you on our team? He must have put you on our team because we had a gap before you showed up. Like, we were missing something on our team before you showed up. Do you realize how like life giving that is to a kid? Right. Some people might think it's pressure, but it's actually the opposite. It's actually the Opposite this, there was a really interesting study. I don't think I included this in the book because I found out about it after psychologists did a bunch of research on kids from 0 to 18 on what was really important to them. Right. And from 0 to 5, the most important thing is self esteem. So like kind of that identity based like you are loved, you are loved, you are loved, you're safe, you're safe, you're safe. What? I'm just saying that's true. But we think that's 0 to 18. We think it's just. And that self esteem is almost. Can turn cancerous. Right. And they found 5 to 18. The most important thing is not self esteem, it's mission that, that kids have to have a bigger picture than just their consumption, their entertainment and their life. And when they have that, they thrive when they be like, oh, I'm actually here for a reason besides just like paying Nintendo Switch and doing all the things and playing on all the sports teams just for my whatever. And those things are fine. Like shout out to Super Mario Kart. I love Switch. Shout out. Right? I play Fortnite with my boy and it's like the best memories of my life. Of my life. But it's. But yeah, it's like that's really interesting, right? That they actually have clinically found that a kid having a bigger meaning outside of themselves is the most important thing from 5 to 18.

[Podcast Producer]

That's really cool.

[Jordan]

A lot of like Jonathan hates.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Have you guys read his new book, by the way?

[Jordan]

No, not yet.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Anxious generation.

[Danny]

No, I've seen it.

[Podcast Producer]

I need it. I've seen it.

[Jefferson Bethke]

It's like, I think it got New York Times bestseller last month. It's so good. His whole premise is that we are basically raising kids to overprotect them in the real world. So we protect them too much like helicopter parenting. Like there's kidnappers everywhere. Don't go outside, basically. When in fact it's never been safer to live literally in like a neighborhood. And we underprotect them online, give them the device that has porn, anxiety inducing things, all these crazy websites. And that's like a fascinating premise.

[Jordan]

One of his main things, solutions to the problem is unsupervised outdoor play.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Exactly.

[Jordan]

And it's just crazy. I'm always like, like Danny's we're outside now. And I'm probably extreme. But like we're outside now and you're.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Like, turn around, turn around.

[Danny]

Shine's like on the house on the roof.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Like don't supervise it. That is actually Pretty funny.

[Jordan]

No, but it is crazy. I think that there has been like an over, you know, over focus on like, you know, keeping our kids safe.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So. Yes.

[Jordan]

How did we get here? Because you write about this a lot in the book in terms of like the history of how western culture got to where it's at.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

You have another question?

[Danny]

Yeah, I hit a double whammy before we move on from that. You talk so much about mission for your family. So what is your family's mission?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Great question. So we kind of have. If you go to familyteams.com if you're listening, we have some discovery tools on there for that. I think it's a very malleable in wet cement type of thing. You need to identify because some people feel, depending on the personality, some people feel very overwhelmed by that of, oh, I need this really clear, pretty distilled sentence.

[Danny]

I'm overwhelmed.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. And it's like, no, it's a very easy thing to just reverse engineer and work backwards from what are we good at? Like, just add up the gifts and the skills and that's pretty much your mission. Right? Like if it's extroverted or if you're hospitable or if you're a businesswoman and a businessman like you guys are. And then how do we integrate kids into that rather than disintegrate kids? And that doesn't mean they need to work there and doesn't mean they have to take over, but it's just asking those questions in a really soft way and then like the momentum starts to take care of itself. So it should be a long discovery process that takes at least a couple of years to like pay it. And certainly if your kids are 7 and under, like, you're not really, you're kind of in a paying attention mode, but you're not really getting a ton of clarity on mission for the family yet. It's like a training.

[Danny]

But are you speaking to them about their mission?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, well, I don't know if they. I would say we're using the language at that age.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And we're just getting out of that age. So now it is really fun to see the kids really step up and use it. Like, okay, I can, I really can see your skill set. They do say who you are. Zero to six is pretty much who you are, at least personality wise for the rest of your life. That's very interesting. Isn't that interesting?

[Podcast Producer]

It's so sweet.

[Jefferson Bethke]

It's sweet, but also kind of like, oh man, that's a lot of Pressure. A lot of pressure, too, on the parents. But it's really sweet because you look at your kids, you're like, that is their true. Their personality. Where's I going with that? So, yes, it's just about paying attention. And when you have young kids, I think there's no pressure. So, like, what me and Alyssa did, let's. I'll just be technical. Probably five years ago, we do an end of the year summit as a family and married couple. Then, because the kids were too young, and that's just going to a hotel for a night. And that's just like finding 10 really good questions online. I have a whole thing now, but I don't want to overwhelm people. It's like, what do we. How was our year? Where do we use our gifts? Where do we use our skills? What does next year have in front of us? How do we feel like God wired me? How do we feel like God wired you? And there has to be a convergence point of those giftings or else he wouldn't have put us together. And so it's just asking those questions and then kind of trying to write something down. So I would give you. So we have what we call pillars for our mission, which is like seven really, really, really big terms of like, hospitality, apprenticeship to Jesus, health, some of these really big things. We just say, we are about these things. These are our mission. And outside of these things, we're not about it. And what's really cool is when you have a clear mission, it also allows you to not have family overwhelm, which is so common nowadays, because if a choice comes at you, you just go, that's not us. I don't have to sign up for every baseball team, every basketball team, do everything. Be the person that helps in the school and do this. Because our mission's over here. So hospitality is probably the one that's the easiest for the kids to retain because we literally, like, bet every last amount of our dollars on, like, building a compound with a guest house. And we host events on it. We let people use it for baby showers and worship. Like, our house is used more than I think anyone I've seen use their house. But that bet was because it's what we believe we're here to do. And we have the perfect convergence for our skill set on that. And there's some friends we have. I haven't even. I've known them for 10 years. I've never seen the inside of their house. Yeah, it's like, that's not their mission.

[Danny]

You Know that's probably us.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Except for right now. I'm here, baby.

[Jordan]

No, no, no. We played Settlers of Catan last night.

[Danny]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're getting better about it.

[Jefferson Bethke]

But again, but it doesn't have to be your mission.

[Jordan]

See, I love that that's such an eight thing. Where it's like, hey, I'm not this. I'm not that. I'm this.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Right. And.

[Jordan]

And being wholly focused on that, I think it's something.

[Danny]

And I'm like, what do you want me to be, you guys? You want me to cook in the kitchen? I can do it today.

[Jordan]

Like, I do think that that is such a strength of an eighth is. Is not feeling this sense of comparison, right?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Totally.

[Jordan]

So I think that we struggle with that a lot. Where it's like, oh, man, we should be more hospitable, or we should be more this. Instead of focusing on our strengths and saying, hey, these are our pillars, we focus on our weakness. Do you find that other families in Western culture struggle with that a lot as well?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. 100. And I was at a. Again, I think I mentioned earlier, I men's breakfast this morning, speaking to a bunch of men. And this line I said to them, that I think applies to what you're talking about. As I said, there's no generalists in the Kingdom of God. There's only specialists. And we don't wrestle with that enough. We all want to be generalists. We all want to do everything, do a little bit of everything, be good at a little bit of everything. But, like, the Kingdom of God, at least in the Christian narrative, is specifically using, like, war language. It's using feasting language, team language. There's all these different metaphors he uses, and all of those encapsulate, like, if it's a feast, everyone brings a different dish. Right? If it's a war, you have certain people on the front lines. You have certain people on the cannon, you have certain people on the watchtower. And so it's like, I just wish we would lean into being more understanding that God created you and you and whoever's listening. As a specialist for the kingdom of God, you're wiring your gift set. And here's the cool part, too, is, like, you were put in this place in time because God believed that this place in time needed you. That's really encouraging, in my opinion. And so it's like, you are a specialist for people. And in this war that we're in of good and dark and all that stuff. And so I think just remembering that is really, really important. And yes, I do think families struggle with that though.

[Danny]

I see that a lot with when Stratton was born. Like, I felt like he was such a. And of course, I mean, Stella was our first. But I feel like he is so different than the rest of our family. Like, he's so joyful and loving and just brings us. And he's only 2, but you can tell their personality. And it was like, man, this is like a missing puzzle piece that was finally filled. And like, I already feel that purpose.

[Jordan]

He's like the guy that, like, we. He comes on all the trips with us because he's the fun guy.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. Guys, stop working.

[Danny]

We're here and like Stella's over there, like, organizing her shoes, you know, and it's just.

[Jefferson Bethke]

But that's a perfect example of like, you guys are paying attention to your kids and you're paying attention to where they can fill these gaps in a really cute way right now. But I bet in 10 years it'll be very darn close to what you're saying of like, man, he. He lightens us up in a way that we really need because we both go hard or whatever. And then her, with organization, she can maybe be integrated into the family. There's all these different ways, but it's kind of the sensitivity to be just like, pay attention and ask God to give you a picture of who your kids are and why they're in your family. It lights you up, but it also.

[Danny]

Lights them up and love your kids for who they are.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Exactly.

[Danny]

Not trying to make themselves. I felt a lot of. And it wasn't necessarily my parents, but just like the way I was raised, I always just felt like I wasn't good enough or I had to be this or I had to do that. And it's exhausting. And then I think that insecurity, unfortunately, like, even bred into my 30s. Like, and it's because I think in childhood I just like, you never think. Think you're good enough.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes.

[Podcast Producer]

As you all know, Divi won EY Entrepreneur of the Year. So we decided to take it back to the beginning and kind of let you in on a little behind the scenes of first building our brand. So when Shopify approached us about this partnership, it was really a no brainer for us because Shopify has kind of changed our lives. Disney has been tried and true to this platform since truly day one when we had no idea what we were doing. Like I said, we had never had a business before, never sold anything on, you know, E Commerce. When we Started Divi, we just had like no idea where to start. So luckily I learned a lot from Jordan because he had more experience and he was the one that recommended that we use Shopify because I just remember feeling like so confused. Where do we begin? And if this thing grows, like I don't want to invest all this time and money into some platform that we're going to outgrow really fast. So when we started to build Divi, I relied on Jordan a lot. He had more experience in Austin in the startup world and kind of like had a pulse on kind of what all these startups and all these businesses were using. And so he was like, hands down, we have to use Shopify because once again, it's really good for small business owners, but also really great for, for if you do expand. And to be honest, we didn't really know where Divi was going to go. I mean we started with like one skew in our nursery in our house. And so but my favorite part about everything was that like we could just control it all from our phones. And so when Jordan showed me that I was like, yes, absolutely. And since he also had came from the text scene, I like really trusted his discernment. To be honest. Shopify has been a total game changer for us. Cuz I remember when I was selling bracelets in college I would, I would use like Facebook and just post a picture and then have people comment if they wanted a bracelet and to come to my dorm room, which is not the best way to keep track of inventory or customer support or people need something or even if they want to share your business. There were just like really no tools using Facebook. And so I wish I would have known about Shopify a lot sooner. And I just remember whenever I would get on the app and like it was so cool because you could see, see where all of your sales were coming from online. Because obviously if you're posting online it can come like from all over the nation, which is so cool. Like I remember we had a ton of people in California which is always like blew my mind. And you can see all the dings. Like it's super rewarding. You can see all the orders coming in. I could see immediately like if I posted something on social media or if somebody else talked about it, like I, I could start seeing like the dings come up or the notifications on my phone and kind of like know what works and what doesn't. So it just has all these tools that always recommend to other business owners that are trying to start out. Like it maybe can feel very intimidating, but your business is going to grow, so you want to invest in a platform that can also, you know, grow with you. So Shopify has truly like changed our lives. So another cool thing about Shopify is you have all of these AI tools, which also sounds so intimidating, but they're really not. Like you have Shopify Magic and Sidekick, they basically act like your little entrepreneurial copilots. You can get reports, content, ideas, directions, you can edit images. It's truly like having an employee just there for you. But they work anytime you need them and you don't have to worry about, you know, hours.

[Danny]

So I would say like those are.

[Podcast Producer]

Some of the things that have helped the most. And it's cool because like everything is like integrated into one app and everything. They're always like evolving and making that better, which is is really cool. So if you are ready to build your own business, whether it's merch, a passion project or something you've been sitting on, or even a summer side hustle, get on shopify.com jani and make it happen. Because we did and now we've sold over 2 million bottles of that scalp serum that we started with. Thank you Shopify for sponsoring our podcast and being the best e commerce platform ever. We love you.

[Ad Read Host]

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[Jefferson Bethke]

You can.

[Ad Read Host]

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[Jordan]

To like how we got here as like a western culture, you, you write about, about this a lot. What are some of the pivotal moments.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Of how we got here?

[Jordan]

Of how we got here?

[Jefferson Bethke]

I would say there's a, there's honestly a lot. The two that are easy for people to understand that kind of concept quickly show how we've made some really big leaps with family. The first One would be 1945 to 1960, which is considered the wealthiest 15 years of any country of any period in time. So Post World War II, just like the economy went to a stratosphere that we've never seen before. That's where we got the creation of the middle class being really strong and robust, you know, and all these different types of things. And what the ramification of that was that sociologists have studied is no one needed each other anymore. This is one thing we don't wrestle with. But like pre1800, if you literally did not depend on your family team, you would die. It's just that simple. I mean, just you would just die. Like there was no such thing. There was literally no such thing in 1720 of like a single person getting like a job in the city and like sustaining themselves.

[Danny]

You had served.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, you would literally starve to death. So it was like an actual need to share resources. And of course I'm not trying to go back there, so I like the influence we have in the western culture, but it has ramifications. And so that one of like, oh, we don't need each other anymore. And then what was really interesting too is a lot of people then started moving away from their generational families in post1960 for that reason because they had enough resources. And then you get to about 1990, we have an economy lag and everyone's kind of left out in the cold of like, oh, I really wish I was by my family right now. But now we live five states away. That's a whole nother thing. But then the big one that really makes a lot of sense for people would be the Industrial Revolution. Technically there's like three or four of those. They started at different times. But in general, what the Industrial revolution did was kind of, as we know it was an agrarian society that then went to a machine society, an industrialized society of machines, extraction and production at a really high level. And what that did is mainly took the father out of the home, meaning like it like changed fundamentally the home. The home. The home in 1750 was you were a blacksmith family, you were a farmer, you were whatever. And your whole home had kind of this organism level relation to each other. Kids were certainly contributors and like employees of that company, not like just consumers. Now again, I'm not arguing for child labor, but that's just true.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And that's why they actually had a lot of kids in, is because they needed more workers. But that. And so there was like a dance that was happening. And here's another way to put it. The. The economic, the economic engine of the, of the home or sorry, of the man was in the home or the family was in the home. Meaning like. And in a capitalistic society, this is just by default, we get most of our meaning from our work. That's fine, that's true. But what happens when you rip that out of the home? Now there's no missional identity left for that family except to be safe, consume and be entertained. And so that was a huge shift that just like happened that we never wrestled with. Now I'm not saying again that we all need to go home and work. I work away from home. I'm traveling right now. There's, there's a variations to that, but I think, and Wendell Berry talks about this in a lot of his poems that you know that you can have an industrialized job that you need to bring an agrarian spirit to and you can have an agrarian job that actually has an industrialized spirit. So he's not saying it's the actual job. It's like the spirit of like integration and like actually tilling the land in a metaphorical way. Integrating your kids in a certain way, tapping them in and their gifts and skills. So those would be. There's a lot more. But, but like those are two very, very big historical moments that like just family looks really different.

[Jordan]

Now the one thing I want you to touch on.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

I think is going to give you your moment. No pressure, pressure listener is you talk a lot of. About how this has really stretched females in the home really thin because as they went back out to work. So speak to that. You talk about it.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, well, when. So I'll reference Wendell Berry, again, if you're listening to this and you have 15 minutes, I think one of the greatest essays of the 1900s is a. Is an essay by Wendell Berry called Feminism the Body and the Machine. And he's just a brilliant poetic thinker. That's kind of deep. It might be. It's. It's amazing. I like cite it like seven times in my book. But he has one really interesting rhetorical question in there where, again, this is a very prophetic thing he's saying. So I'm not saying I'm arguing for this, but it just makes you think is. He basically is arguing that, like, the industrialization of all of our work is bad. It kind of has made us cogs in the wheel and we, like, don't do work that's really meaningful anymore. Right? We're just in an office tapping into keyboard. We don't know what we're doing. And it's just at the extraction of the person at the top to make all the money. Whatever. You can agree with that, Disagree with that. But he basically says, he goes, men have been doing that for 100 years. And he's like, and now women are chasing that. And he basically says, his line is, why would you chase the same slavery that the men are in? Like, you have shackles on. Why would you chase their slavery? That's really interesting to think about that. Like, most women see that I want to go work. I want to go do my thing as like a proliferation of themselves. When his argument is actually like, I think both the man and the woman are wrong, at least in trying to do that. I don't totally agree. I just think it's really interesting to think about. So what I would say is this.

[Jordan]

Trad wife on TikTok.

[Jefferson Bethke]

100%. Yeah. Yeah. Sourdough baking. 100%. It's kind of like, baby. But I think that's why. I think that's why circle. Well, the Atlantic did an article on this from like, a non Christian perspective. And basically it was on the trad wife. It was a trad wife critique. And. But they kind of like, nut. They kind of like, admitted that. Why? It's compelling. And they basically said at the end of the day, the mom still has to come home and do the work. So it's like, it's. It's not like it's. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard to do it. Like, she's got to do this. Like, it almost said, like, now she's got to do everything.

[Danny]

And so she's got to film herself too.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Exactly.

[Danny]

Instagram.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And so I would say the way I would articulate this is again, back in that pre industrialized version of a family, there was a. There was a team oriented nature of the home. Right. The family, like, not only was the mom and the dad working in a really beautiful dance, but like, what people don't realize, and this is certainly all over the actual scriptures, because this is the ancient Near East. In the first century, there was like 20 people in the family working in the home. So it's like. And so we, we get these visions of that of like, oh, they're making bread and doing all these things and they have cattle and all this stuff. It's like they did, but they also had 20 people in the home helping them.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And now we kind of like extract that out and say, oh, yeah, just Danny, it's your job to do all the things with no help and no grandparents and no things. And I know you guys integrate your grandparents in an awesome way. I mean, your parents in an awesome way. The kids, grandparents. But it's like, yeah, it's like, so the biggest. The person who has been hit the most from the familial changes the last 100 years has been the woman. And I think it's. And I actually think they need to and go out and work if they want to and use their skill set and all those things. But we have to reckon with what solutions do we have as a family to make sure that both the husband and the wife are supported and they're both working in a sustainable way and using their gifts in a sustainable way.

[Jordan]

So tomorrow you're going to be meeting with a bunch of Instagram husbands.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Let's go, babies.

[Danny]

Can you tell more like, for people that are listening.

[Jordan]

So Jefferson was rolling through and so I pulled like all of the Dallas, like Instagram husbands together and we're doing like a little informal secret society mastermind.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Let's go. I'm gonna wear my skulls jacket.

[Jordan]

The reason, the reason I thought it was so cool to bring you through. And I think that, you know, I don't really do things like this, but I felt really called to do it because I felt, you know, in our situations, like our wives are the ones who went out to work.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Right.

[Jordan]

And a lot of the struggle that a lot of these guys have is very early on when they switch over to this industry, they lose that identity that they were raised with of being the provider. And it's a huge ego hit. And, you know, we've been doing this together for six years. So like I'm kind of, I went through it, I'm evolved out of it. And so I try and help coach a lot of the guys that are going through it because it's like, hey, you need to see this as like a team thing, not as a, this is what it's doing to my identity. 100 because it, you know, there's nothing wrong with like Danny or any of these wives being on the Internet and doing a job that they love and they're passionate about. But it does require us to come more into the home 100% to be more hands on with the kids. And I think that where this industry creates a lot of friction with marriages.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Is that 100% because the, the on the roles they think they have to play in traditional roles. And that's why. Let's talk about this. This is fun. This, this is actually my new book. So we can go, we can jump.

[Jordan]

Into it if you want the oversimplification of roles of what is a man as a provider going out and it should look like XYZ and a woman should be trad wife xy.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Totally.

[Jordan]

They're, they're too oversimplified in this.

[Jefferson Bethke]

You know, let's talk about this. This is fun conversation, man.

[Jordan]

You're going to go into your new book before.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I don't have. Sorry, I'm just, I'm psyched because I have all points.

[Jordan]

You'll go.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I know you bring that one back to me.

[Danny]

Bring that one back to me.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So don't bring it back to me in five minutes.

[Jordan]

So what I want to do is I want to park on that for a moment. Super excited you're coming tomorrow. I want. So you, you talk to us about the Western families when Jeremy and you go to Israel.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

You do a really good job of pulling inspiration from Jewish families, Muslim families and talking about different cultures and their family systems and structures. Paint us a picture of what families outside of the west look like. What could be the ideal for someone who's listening and says, hey, this family thing isn't working for me. What could it look like for a new family?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Well, I think the really good place to start is anywhere outside of the west tends to have just a lot longer memory of family both in the past and in the future. So like when they think of what they're doing, they see themselves as like links in the chain for like a 500 year play. Like they really do. And then if you were to ask a Jewish person who's your great, great, great Great, great, great, great, great, great grandpa. Who would they say? All of them. Now, globally, they'd all say Abraham. That's kind of wild that, like a collective group of people would all point to the same grandfather that's Would like. And even God. Think about this. When God wants to communicate himself to us. I mean, sorry, to. To the Israelites and to him, to. To his people in the scriptures. His descriptor. This is wild to me, actually. His descriptor. His descriptor is a multigenerational family God. He says, I'm the God of what? Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That's wild to me. That hit from his mouth. He's saying, hey, I want to give you my name. I want to let you know who I am. And he could have chose any other descriptors. I'm the God of love or whatever his. His actual name is. I'm the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Three generations of dead people I want to tie myself to because I believe in these really long visions. Christians could never even come close to doing that. If we were. We'd be like the God of I don't know, I don't care, and I'd never met him. Yeah, yeah, that's wild. Right now, of course, that's really difficult in the Western world where we don't have that memory, don't have that record keeping. We don't think like that. But I think it should inspire us to just think in a long way and it should take the pressure off. Here's what I mean by this. If you think that you have to do everything right, and just nail it as a parent and just crushed life, right, until you send your kids off at 18, that's a lot of pressure, right? But if you actually believe that, just like this missional, generational thing, even though it's gonna change in stages as they become literal adults, goes till for like 100 years, goes for 150 years. And it's more like you taking a football and carrying it down the field and then passing it one generation. Passing it one generation. You know, jfk. I mean, not jfk. Excuse me. The Rockefellers would be a really good example of this.

[Jordan]

Oh, you always pull from elite family.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Well, because.

[Jordan]

And I love it.

[Jefferson Bethke]

They're also. They're perfect metaphors for the spiritual nature of what I'm saying. Because of course, their versions of all this, what I'm about to say is wealth and money and oil, but. But it's metaphor for, like, spiritual legacy. So everything I'm about to say take it as a spiritual legacy thing. But the Rockefellers are a great example. And John Rockefeller was actually a really good dad. He had, he, he only had one son, and certainly back then that was kind of your line gets passed through the sun. He obviously was the richest person in the world, thanks to oil at that time. He was the Elon Musk of the day. And so he has all this wealth and. Because when people hear me say what I just said, they go, oh, like, it's all these clones of just like the next generation doing the exact same thing and the exact same thing. And there's no freedom of individualism. That's always what people are thinking. But it's like he was a really good example of. No, it's about paying attention to your kids and just passing the resources, the legacy and the teaching so that they can do their mission and extend the family mission and grow it. So his, his thing was oil, and oil was. And when he was dying, I mean, think about the pressure, by the way, like, he easily could have felt a lot of pressure to, like, pass the business. Like, man, this thing's worth billions of dollars and it's going to sink if no one else takes it. And I only have one son. And if he doesn't take Standard Oil, that's what it was called, then, like, it goes bankrupt.

[Ad Read Host]

I don't know.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Right. Just goes into the crapper, you know, just goes into the trash. And so, like, he had to feel that pressure. But he was sensitive enough to his son. His son was a huge generous person and really cared from, like, a philanthropic standpoint. And so his son only cared about basically, like, blessing people and wanting build libraries, build hospitals, build schools and all these things, which is not what oil does. Right. And so he just paid attention enough to his son that he basically gave the son the money and that blessing of like, hey, your mission is clearly, you want to build hospitals, build schools, build libraries. So take the resources that I've built. I've used my whole life as taking the football down the field. Give it to you now in your own way. You've discovered your own calling, and I want you to utilize that for the next generation. And if you know the Rockefellers today, they're still a healthy family. They still meet, have crazy family meetings that are fun to research. They, they, they, they document online how they do their family meetings. It's crazy. And who can vote and who's worth what votes, and it's wild.

[Jordan]

Can you tell us a little bit about it?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Well, it's just like they, they're. It's really hard meaning, like you, you're in the family, but you don't get a seat at the table for voting on certain things until you've proved it, like with your integrity, your character, and like a couple different like benchmarks you have to show. But now they're, they're 100% philanthropic. Like they, they. Since this is like 1800s, since the 1800s, they've been the most philanthropic family that's ever lived. So it's like because the senior had enough wisdom to like open up the box and just say, I trust the next generation's calling, but I'm going to pass down what I have. They are now who they are most famously. Like, they're not known for oil, they're known for philanthropy. And so I just think that's a really good example spiritually of like generationally. God gives visions and missions that are, that are way longer than your life for a city, for Dallas, for Hawaii, for Franklin, that he wants these places to look a certain way, he wants them to be discipled a certain way. He wants them to. He wants the church to be built up in a certain way. And like, that doesn't happen in five minutes. So like, we actually need the generations for that to be true.

[Jordan]

So what about families out there who are listening this and saying, oh man, you know, I already moved five states away from my upstream, you know, the, the grandparents, my children, or maybe I don't have my parents passed away. You know, what do you say to. You're such a proponent of multi generational like living and your parents being involved. But what if you don't?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Great question. So here's the fun part that I haven't gotten to the. The New Testament makes a pretty significant leap from everything I've just said. For it's absolutely true, everything I've said. But it adds another layer of spiritual family. So it's very clear in acts that like Jesus came to make a new family, like a new family. Now again, we can read that in the west and see it so, so strongly as like, oh, throw away old family. I think it's more of just like adding another layer to what's true. But. And so I know plenty of people where, man, their parents are toxic, their parents are unhealthy, or there's certain things that are not strong or they're moved away, or they passed away and they're living so amazingly generationally with mission and blessing and goodness, with like spiritual parents. Right. Excuse me, like people that are discipling them and people that they're learning under and people that they're mentored by. And then they're passing that down. Like there's. There's definitely a Paul and Timothy relationship, not just between men that we see in the New Testament like Paul and Timothy, but family wise. Like families are meant to embed, to kind of mesh together in a city. And I think spiritually that is 100% true, that God's coming to make a new family and if you love Jesus, you're in the new family. And everything I just said is true. Spiritually, you know, I mean, the generational stuff and building a church and being part of a community and stuff like that.

[Jordan]

So cool.

[Jefferson Bethke]

You guys are. This is the best interview ever, by.

[Danny]

The way, I think.

[Jordan]

One more question on this topic.

[Danny]

I'm being quiet because I'm so excited.

[Podcast Producer]

About the new book.

[Danny]

Trust me, I'm trying to get him to segue.

[Jordan]

I'm giving all the value.

[Danny]

Okay. Okay.

[Jordan]

This is my test run.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I know.

[Danny]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I need to take a seat back.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay.

[Jordan]

One of the most impressive things that you've taught me about outside of Western culture families is rhythms in the home.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Totally.

[Jordan]

A lot of people, when I first started reading your book and hearing from you and Jeremy, I was like, rhythms?

[Jefferson Bethke]

What does that mean? Yeah.

[Jordan]

And it. And I would like for you to kind of unpack the importance of rhythms. What you see rhythms, meaning and looking like in a family. And maybe some practical tips on establishing rhythms.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Great, great question. Or would I start with this?

[Ad Read Host]

Yeah.

[Danny]

Maybe there are unique things that your family does that like no one else.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. And there should be both. Yeah, Unique ones.

[Jordan]

And finding rhythms in the context of family. Because I think we all know what the word rhythm means, but what does that mean to you?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. Well, the technical definition is like music. It's a cadence that something operates in a very particular way. It's clear that again from the scriptures, the ancient. And even people outside of. In the ancient world, outside of the scriptures would have thought this, that there is rhythm to like every part of how we see. Calendar, the day. Right. Sun up, sundown. Right. The week, the month, the year. Like you can go on and on there. There's clearly rhythm. And again, everyone else, pre modern society, pre electricity, like submitted to these things is actually like, they're different. Right. Like, do you know you're not supposed to be able to buy a tomato in January and in June they're not. They grow certain times of the year. But we live in this place called America. They can just grow them in a lab and so we can eat them. Like, we, like we're so anti rhythmic because we are so addicted to controlling our environment and making what we want to be true at any moment in time. That we don't like rhythms because they're limiting, but really beneficial. Just like music, right? Like when you're dancing at a wedding, rhythm will force you. You have to dance in beat, right? Hopefully. Unless you're a white guy that can't do it. Exactly. Yeah. Like, like, like you're not dancing. Well, if you're not dancing in rhythm, that's like an objective fact. But once you're dancing in the rhythm, you can pick 100 different dance moves. Do you seem like the freedom but the submission. So one interesting thing too, by the way, is the week is the superpower rhythm. 100%. The week is like a. Is a powerful tool that we don't realize. Is a powerful tool and think about this too. Why do we. Why do we even honor a week? Like, it's really weird that we honor seven days. Why do we honor a day? There's a very clear external reality. Can you guys guess? Why do we. Why do we exactly. Sun up. Sundown. Nailed it. Okay. Month. Why do we. What's a month measured by. That one's tougher. The moon.

[Danny]

Oh, my God.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay, so the lunar. Yeah, the lunar cycle is what, sets a month. Okay. And then you guys will get this one, hopefully. Oh, gosh. How do we measure a year? Why do we. Why do we know it's a year? One trip around the moon, sun. Clari. She got it. She got it.

[Danny]

I'd like to thank my fifth grade teacher.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes. This come from the 1.8 GPA, baby. Okay, now, hardest question. Why do we. How do we measure a week?

[Danny]

In the Bible.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. I mean, there's no external reality, which is really interesting. There's no scientific external reality why we honor a week. That's kind of wild. But yet we've been, we've proven like French Revolution tried to do a 10 day week, just failed miserably. Communist Russia tried to do a five day week, which you think would be better because it's shorter. Failed miserably. So it's like we're created for this six in one. This six and one. This, this work and rest rhythm. Right. And if you don't submit to it, it's to your detriment. Now, I think it's a superpower for a family. There's, you know, there's other Rhythms, whether it can be personally spiritual formation, prayer, etc, it can be fun, pizza day, pizza night. But here's what, here's the quickest thing I would say to kind of answer your question after explaining all that rhythms like are identity shaping moments and days and like things in your week. So think about that. They're identity shaping things. Like they're not routine, they're not I tie my shoe. That's not a rhythm. A rhythm is like an identity shaping behavior.

[Jordan]

Like Shabbat dinner.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Exactly. Sabbath would be a perfect example for us. Like it's a. And that's we built up to it. But It's a huge 24 hour thing in our household. We've been doing for a decade. The in laws come over, we ask them stories, we sing a song, we light a candle, we show pictures, we don't. I turn off my phone the next day. We don't work, we swim, we play like and all of a sudden we leave that one day and we're like, we are so full right now of like goodness and life and just like family love. Right. So it like has shaped our identity. And you can do that in small ways too in the week and whatever.

[Danny]

It is like traditions that you feel like.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, exactly. Traditions is a really good replacement for like rhythms. I think they can just even be smaller, like, you know, like little tiny things you do in the morning or so another one is every single morning me and the kids do this little prayer. We've been doing it for five years. Can I say it real quick?

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So it's, I tell the kids to put their hands out in front of them and I say receive after me. And then the prayer is, I'm not what I do. And they say it, I'm not what I have. I'm not what other people say about me. I'm the beloved of God. It's who I am. No one can take it from me. I don't have to worry, I don't have to hurry. I can trust my friend Jesus and share his love with the world. And it's a repeat after me. So I say it, they say it, I say it, they say it, I say it. If you do that every single day, I mean that's 30 seconds. But if they're going to get, if that's going to be 20 years in their body. And I do this fun thing where I give them like an Eminem at the end because I read the psalm where it's like the law of the Lord is like honey on my lips. And Honey was just, like, way messy. Yeah. So I was like, let's just do the American version of that. So I just tossed an M and M in their mouth. But think about this, though. So again, the Jewish people are so tactile with their rhythms, and that matters. The west is so about the intellect. We just think if we think the right thing, it's going to form us. Thinking the right thing doesn't form you. Like, letting. Letting real things enter into your five senses forms you right to the point of even, like, you know, let's say my kids are maybe in a really wayward bad season in their 20s. They're not making really healthy decisions, and they're on road trip with friends, and maybe they're partying. Maybe they got drunk. I don't know. All these bad decisions that can happen, and all of a sudden they're on up there on a road trip, and they stop at a gas station and they go to get snacks and they see piccho rings, which are my favorite. And then next to it, they see M&MS. If they see M&MS, what do you think they're gonna think? Like, it'll be so visceral in their body because they've done this prayer for 20 years. They'll just start saying it in the middle of 7 11. I'm like, that's the power of, like, little rituals and rhythms, small or large. And it's really, really important because that's the glue of a family.

[Danny]

I love that.

[Jordan]

Funny. It's, you know, Jewish culture. Danny grew up around, like, a lot of Jewish families.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Oh, yeah.

[Jordan]

She speaks about this a lot. There's, like, every Friday.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I thought she was about to say. I thought he's about to say, you speak Yiddish or something.

[Danny]

I mean, all my friends are Jewish.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Don't you speak Spanish, too?

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah.

[Ad Read Host]

You know.

[Danny]

No. That's literally all you can say. I have been to 18 bar bat mitzvahs. Dang. Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

That's legit.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

So it's cool. Like, she's. She's talked a lot about the rhythms that her friends experience. Like, they would go home on Fridays.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

Dinner. And it was, like, such a important piece of, like, the family culture.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Did you go to Israel And Friday night. It's really weird. A country shuts down.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Friday night to Saturday, it's just like, nothing is open.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

That knows there's no cars on the road.

[Jordan]

There's only one group in the west that I give credit. I tell you this all.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay.

[Podcast Producer]

The Mormons.

[Jordan]

The Mormons.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Oh, strong dude, strong formation. 100.

[Jordan]

Logically, we have to. Some disagreements on. No, but here's the thing. In this mastermind I planned, I had Stephen Houghton, who's Mormon, come and I said, hey, listen, I don't want to get into.

[Jefferson Bethke]

He's coming tomorrow.

[Jordan]

Yeah, he's coming tomorrow.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Shout out to Stephen, I'll see you there, bro. He's.

[Jordan]

I was like, listen, I went up to him, I was like, listen, I.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I mean he's actually gonna love my talk.

[Jordan]

Very sincerely, I was like, I do not want to talk theology with you, but I want you to come and I want you to teach us everything that you know about like Mormon culture and what you guys do in terms of traditions.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Totally.

[Jordan]

Because they've mastered the family. They really have. And, and, and he was telling me that like even his dad would have a theme song for the family.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes.

[Jordan]

And if you, if you meet these, this family, the hoods, they're the most positive people.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes.

[Jordan]

You can't make them sad.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. And I, and I asked him the Mormon superpower.

[Jordan]

I was like, why is this? And he was like, well, you know, we always had like a pump up song every morning before we went to school.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, this.

[Jordan]

I forgot his, his chain.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, it's like a little prayer thing and it just embeds in your soul.

[Jordan]

And so it's like, I'm so excited for him to share things. I love that they dominate too.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I just want to give you.

[Jordan]

They dominate when they do.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And they have. The Mormons have such an amazing vision of like discipleship and formation. I mean, when you're 18, a 16 year old boy, it's mandatory that they basically go to like a Mormon level seminary before school, before high school. And I remember seeing, I wait a lot of Mormons in my high school and they would always have to go to the Mormon school across the church, across the school, across the street from the school at like 6 to 7am and then come to school and it's like. And then obviously they have to do the mission. That's just mandatory. And it's like when you, when you, when you hold people to a really high caliber, it's crazy how deeply formative it is.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay.

[Jordan]

We've been talking about family quite a bit.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I want men.

[Ad Read Host]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

I want to transition to your perfect.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes. Yeah. You can ask all the questions about men.

[Jordan]

So you go ahead.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Danny]

Well, just talk about your new book.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. Okay, tell us about it. Fighting Shadows and how you got to this topic. Yeah. So Fighting Shadows. I really do like the Title. It's the. It's a central metaphor we use throughout the whole book, that there's seven dominant shadows that are kind of like lurking on a man's heart. We got it from the story in the Gospels where Jesus is talking to Peter, who Catholics believe is the first pope, who I just believe is an amazing disciple. And he's talking to Peter.

[Jordan]

Let's get into that.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I know, right? Is Peter the first pope? One billion people are going to disagree. Literally. That's the number of Catholics on Earth. So that many people are going to disagree with me. Shout out to Martin Luther. But anyways, okay, that was a Protestant Reformation joke. Anyone? Okay, no, that bombed. Bombed in the room. Bombed in the room. Thank you. Yes, exactly. So what was I saying? Oh, yeah. So it comes from the story where Jesus says to Peter, this is kind of a wild conversation. He looks at Peter and he says, satan has asked to sift you like wheat. Like. Like. It's basically like Jesus and Satan have had a private conversation, and Jesus lets Peter know about it and he goes, satan is asked to sift you like wheat, which basically just means, like, destroy you. Rip you apart at every fabric of your being. That's insane, by the way. I never want that to be said about me.

[Danny]

Yeah, me either.

[Jefferson Bethke]

But he said that about Peter. And then Jesus says, but. But I have prayed that your faith will not fail. And that word fail in the Greek is the word eclepos, which is literally the same Greek word for eclipse. It's where we get the word eclipse. And it's funny, we wrote this book before the famous eclipse. Wrote this book, like, two years ago. And then last month we had the famous eclipse. But what's an eclipse, right? It's where, like, it's where something that is technically smaller than the light, like, it's not as big and it's not as powerful. It's just closer to your face that it blocks out all of the light. It kind of comes in front of you, and you no longer see the light. And think about this, by the way, in ancient civilization, when they saw an eclipse, they probably would have thought, like, apocalypse. It only lasts five minutes. But then, like, is our world ending. It's dark at lunch. You know what I mean? And, like, that is kind of like the spirit and the feel of what we're talking about. With this book, there's seven dominant lies. I don't have it memorized yet, but it's like lust, ambition, futility, apathy, and a few more. And I think those are the Things that are coming between men of, like, not only seeing Jesus, but seeing their full self, like, seeing who they're meant to be, who they're created to be, and it's too close to their eyes. And so the book is basically trying to, like, address those and then try to show them how to get those out of the way so they can see who they're truly created to be.

[Jordan]

And to make this, like, more relatable to, like, our predominantly female audience, like.

[Jefferson Bethke]

You know, you got brothers, you got husbands, you got. You got fathers.

[Jordan]

Jess came onto the podcast and Brittany as well. They were both on Love is Mine, and both of them, we talked.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I heard that's a banger show, by the way. Is it good? I've never seen it.

[Danny]

It's amazing. Netflix prime, where we watch it last episode. You have to watch at Netflix, right? Yeah, it's Netflix.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I just start seeing a pop. I'm like, I need to. Okay.

[Ad Read Host]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

But they came onto the podcast and they were talking about the dating scene in Charlotte, where they lived before that. And this is kind of a reoccurring theme. We have a lot of females that work at Divi, and it's like, when they talk about dating men, dude, guys just suck today.

[Jefferson Bethke]

They suck. I mean, and.

[Jordan]

And it's so fascinating because it seems like it was like, okay, and then it just totally. Right now, there's a huge consumer culture when it comes to dating apps. Like. Like, it's really. They're.

[Jefferson Bethke]

They're.

[Jordan]

They're not really strong in their values. There's a lot of apathy. They game all day. Yeah. These are the types of things that you are trying to address. 100 attack in the book, right?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, 100. And I think you.

[Danny]

You.

[Jefferson Bethke]

You alluded to the perfect point. It's like, even if you're a 99 females listening, we are in an interweb of human relationships, and half of this world is men. And it's. You had to. There had to be one man and a woman to make you. So you're here because of a man. You might have brothers. You certainly have coworkers. Like, it's. You need. Women need to be thinking about men, their psychology, their lies, their idols, and vice versa. We need to think about how to serve women, how to think about them. What are their problems? What are the pressures they're under? How can we make sure that they don't feel like that? And so, yeah, it's absolutely that and deeply important.

[Jordan]

So what happened? So what happened to men?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Good question.

[Jordan]

The history of the family.

[Jefferson Bethke]

What happened to men? Yeah, I, man, I think a lot of things have happened to men. Fortnite, Yes.

[Danny]

I mean, I love Fortnite, but I'm.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Also a controlled, disciplined man at 34. And if you're wasting your life at 27, get off right now. Now I would say, oh man, that one's a hard to answer because it's so. There's so many reasons. Certainly I would say the book, if you want the deep reasons. I would say there's a couple different things. Back to. Let's actually jump even back to your conversation. We may go to this question next of kind of the roles and some of that stuff because that was one of the things that's gotten really difficult. And why I actually feel for a lot of men is because they feel like they've been usurped and not in the sense of like that women are taking their jobs. Not at all. I just mean, like you said a good thing. You were like, they feel like their job is to be a provider. We've been told that for a long time. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, everyone can provide. Anyone can provide, right? Just own a business, run a business, do a thing, have a job.

[Danny]

So what's your value now?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Exactly. And so that is a really big one. That's not the only one, but that's a very large one that like. And that's what we talk about in the apathy chapter is that when men feel like they're not needed, which certainly non Christian secular culture is pushing that and certainly is even saying, you guys, men are evil, men are the ill. Like men are like the problem with everything. Everything can be blamed on men certainly if they're white and right. You know what I mean? And it's like that's the, that's kind of the scapegoat to everything right now. And then yeah, just the fact that they, we don't, they don't. Men don't understand like, you know, oh, of course in 1800 we were the only one that could swing a hammer to build that road. Like, you know what I mean? But now it's like it's software based work and computers. So that is, there's many reasons, but that is a real one that like men's identity around work has gotten deeply reshuffled. And I don't think that's for the wrong. It's just like they need to understand what has happened, if that makes sense.

[Jordan]

Is that worldwide because of AI and software, software, is that just.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I Would say a little bit, but I would say more of a western problem. Australia, uk, kind of first world developed countries armor. The ones that no longer are like super based in manual labor. Even though, by the way, there's millions and millions of blue collar men in America that like undergird this whole country. They're like undergird everything. You know, I mean the roads, the tunnels, the water, everything. So yeah.

[Podcast Producer]

Do you think a lot of them.

[Danny]

Are not doing certain jobs at home because there's also like a stigma to them, like maybe taking care of the kids or is it more about their ego?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Let's talk about the roles thing for an interesting, this is an interesting conversation that I'm starting to even think about more even since I finalized the book, even though it's. We talked about it in there. Historically, most, most, most cultures have defined men and women. Like what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? Not with roles, but with virtues. Which is really interesting. Right? So like, you know, and again, you know, and we can talk about why this got interesting, but whether that's, you know, courage would, would have tended to be historically a predominantly male virtue, even though of course females can be courageous. Nurturing would have been tended to be a very dominant female virtue, even though of course a male can be nurturing. But we've, we flipped it to roles, seeing being a man as the worker, being a woman is the stay at home person. And I think that's not right. I think that's to the detriment of actually our society. Because what happens is those are way more insecure. Like, okay, well like what happens when the woman's providing and you're not? You know, you can still be courageous, you can still be loving and kind and have virtue. But like when we concentrate, when we divine men and women based on their roles, even though the Bible has a lot to say about that, but I don't think it's the dominant definition, it really messes with people because roles are actually really fragile. Okay, so it's. Okay, so one of the dominant roles is to be a woman is you need to be a mom. Well, what if you're single? What if you can't have children? What if it's like 10 years of suffering and you know what I mean? Like, are you just not a woman? That's of course ridiculous. Of course you're a woman. And so it's like, I think Reb. One of my arguments is rebasing being a male and being a female in the Virtues is a really interesting conversation. I have more thoughts on that. But do you guys have any thoughts to that or anything you want to respond to that? I would say because I'm gonna keep going.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah. What do you mean?

[Danny]

Virtues?

[Jefferson Bethke]

So like, virtues would be like. There's a couple different ways to define it. Aristotle, I believe, had the four cardinals virtues, which would be prudence, love. I'm blanking on the other two. But there's also like a lot of things that just. It's basically descriptors of like, you know, courageous, loving, kind, nurturing, strong. Like these, these like prudent based virtues. Descriptors that are good for society to have.

[Danny]

Like, why do what you do? Essentially?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, like, and then.

[Danny]

But like it's not your role, it's not what you're doing, but your virtues are like what you stand for. So.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So here's a better way to put it. They're not you personally. Virtues are external realities. Does that make sense? Okay, so like courage is an external reality. That like that is a virtue that we should all aspire to. Love is a virtue that we should all aspire to. Now, now what's interesting is I absolutely believe this anthropologically, that like male and men and women, male and female's virtues overlap. So it's not like here's male ones, here's female ones, they never touch. Like I said, a male can. I mean, a female could be courageous. Here's an interesting conversation too. I just read this. I wish I would have put this in the book. There was a really interesting. Because here's what happened. The reason we changed from defining men and women from a virtue based definition to a role based definition is because as kind of the intellect and some of the modern societies started thinking in a particular way. One of the biggest things people would say is if I say being a man is courageous, what's your natural kind of like rebuttal to that? I mean, being a man is to be courageous. I've kind of already alluded to what the rebuttal is, but it's like, well, a woman can be too.

[Danny]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Jefferson Bethke]

That's like the natural rebuttal. And so then what most people have said is like, oh, they're right. I guess that is not what it means to be a man. Let's throw it off and let's base it in the roles. Okay. But here's what's interesting. I think it was a Catholic theologian I was reading. He had a really good point. He's like, of course. And I'm blanking on all of them. He has a list of like 10 male virtues, 10 female virtues. But he says, of course a female can be courageous. But here's what's interesting. Only a man will be judged on. If he's not, that's what shows it to be a male virtue. Does that make sense? Yes, that's very fascinating. And you could take the reverse with nurturing, right? Like a man absolutely can and should be nurturing, but only a female will be judged if she's not.

[Danny]

That's so true.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Isn't that wild to think about?

[Danny]

I'm like pissed.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I didn't read that till after the book.

[Danny]

That is so, so true.

[Jefferson Bethke]

But it's real and so, so that's a really good way to define it. Of like, there is real male and female virtues. They overlap. They can be true of both. But we have to ask almost in a simple way which ones are suggested and which ones are mandatory for that particular sex?

[Jordan]

Okay. And how does that play into the crisis of what we're going through in American?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Well, I think it's what I alluded to earlier of just like, that's just where we're at sociologically. So then we, so we've made a big shift to defining it in, in roles. And I just think that's a really insecure thing because like I said, you're like, oh, you're not the provider anymore. Well, I guess you're not a good man or you're not, you can't have kids, you're not a good woman or whatever these things, these lies that we throw at men and women.

[Danny]

So what would you say to the men maybe that you're going to meet tomorrow that don't feel valued or they don't feel important anymore because their wives are the breadwinners, they are having to.

[Jordan]

Step up as more nurturing with their kids. They're totally to, you know, play some of the, the quote unquote roles totally of the household that the female is, or what we were raised to believe is totally female.

[Danny]

And to be totally honest, like, and I'm not just talking about the men tomorrow, but like, I know a lot of the mommy bloggers in the space and I know a lot of the husbands are basically like what you would call a stay at home dad these days. And they will not publish that. Like, in fact, sometimes they maybe used to be police officers or firefighters or whatever it is, and they will hide the fact that they still like, are, are, you know, saying that they're in that profession, but they're so scared to announce that they don't work anymore because what they're doing at home, obviously, is so much work. It is the hardest work.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I know the moms are like, yeah, it's a lot harder than you thought it was. Yeah.

[Danny]

But. But, yeah. So what would you say to them?

[Jefferson Bethke]

I think I would go back to what we talked about a little bit with the team stuff. That's where the team dynamic is really helpful, because if you're basing it in individual callings, even though we all have individual callings, but if you're ultimately basing in individual callings, then it gets really fragile. But if you realize, okay, you know, just like a sports team, just like a business team, we're gonna have this team that's gonna be malleable over the years. Right. The CEO is gonna swap out in five years, and maybe the CEO is gonna take over, and maybe this employee is gonna be promoted, and maybe this person's gonna move to this division. And it's like most people, because they have. And here's. In those places, it maybe could still some times be hard to do those job transitions. It's not nearly as hard in an identity way as. As the family one. We're talking about, like, when men have to, like, go stay at home, etc. And I think it's because they have missional agreement. When you have missional agreement, you're down for whatever.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Does that make sense? It's like we, me and you, plus the kids are doing this thing.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And we're meant to do it. We're wired to do it. We're called to do it. So I will do this as my role.

[Danny]

Yeah. I mean, if I can just harp on. He does that so well. Like, I think at first, whenever you started working with me, you're bragging on me.

[Jordan]

I was about to brag on you guys.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I'll just be quick, let you guys go real quick, back and forth.

[Danny]

But he does it so well. And I know at first, whenever we started working together, it was really scary, but, like, from a woman's perspective, like, when a man does step up and, like, he. He's always. He's been malleable. Like, the times whenever I have to go off, I have to do an interview, I have to go to la, whatever. And he's staying home with the kids, you know, helping Stella bake cookies, whatever it is, like, from a woman's perspective, I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's so hot. The fact that he doesn't care and he doesn't put these, like. Like, roles. He's not insecure about it, secure, like.

[Podcast Producer]

He just owns it.

[Danny]

And I feel like most wives are probably like. Like, love that.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

It's so crazy because, like, the all the kind of, like, mindsets that you've shaped into me has even, like, helped me decide what roles I need to take professionally, knowing that my number one.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Role is as a father in the team and father a nurturer.

[Jordan]

And I don't see it as like, stay at home, dad. I'm like, no, this is our. Our team.

[Jefferson Bethke]

You're leading team. Yeah.

[Jordan]

Like, that's where I'm at. And I would say.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I love that.

[Jordan]

I was going to brag on, you know, you and us on for is like, I think that we have always said we, and I don't think it's something we talked about. It just happened. Like, it's always been like, if. If Danny's in an interview with Ulta or getting interviewed by Vogue or something, she is always saying, like, we, whether we are referring to Divi and her team or Danny and I in our marriage. And I. I think that just that team mentality that we have always had.

[Danny]

Yeah. I might be the only one in the real, but I'm like, we made that. We did it. You know?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Where'd you guys get that from? How you guys like that? Was it like that when you guys start dating? Was it conversations? Was it. You felt like it was from both your guys's families growing up? That's just really interesting because that's.

[Danny]

I've always valued collaboration. Like, I think I just know for a fact that so, like, other people are better at what we need at, like, I feel like I need them.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Danny]

Like, I. Honestly, even with this podcast, I'm like, it's. It's a we effort. And so I think for me, it.

[Jordan]

Was like, dying to the ego. Like, the first year we worked together, you know, and I tell the story all the time. I'll just skip over it, but it's like, the first year that we worked together, I went from, like, holding this title, this role.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

As like, I'm the chief marketing officer.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Of this tech company, to just doing what needs to be done.

[Jordan]

Parents being like, okay, so, like, my daughter's gonna be providing, like, and it was just like, a weird thing. And so he was completely ego crushing.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And you're like, yeah, I got a sugar mama, baby. Let's go.

[Jordan]

That's not how I adopted.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Like, I would avoid social situations and.

[Jordan]

Parties because I wanted to avoid that question, what do you do?

[Jefferson Bethke]

He was so scared, so insecure about it.

[Jordan]

I was early 20s. That's when it's really important to your identity.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Totally.

[Jordan]

But going through that ego destruction process just helped me understand. Okay. Like, yeah, I don't have to worry. I. I almost adopted an enneagram 8 where I was like, I don't give an F what people.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jordan]

Because this is the most important thing that I'm doing for my wife.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And, you know, and you see it bearing fruit and. Yeah. I do want to just honor you guys. You know, obviously, we've hung out, we're friends for a bit, but mostly seen you from afar. Like, you guys have done such a good job with your marriage, with how you guys lead, with how you guys own the businesses. You're doing exactly what you're saying. I think it's very apparent online that you guys do it very well, and I think it's a huge inspiration.

[Podcast Producer]

Thank you.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So well done.

[Danny]

We will receive that.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, well done.

[Ad Read Host]

We.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes, I see what you did there.

[Jordan]

Okay, let's wrap up your new.

[Danny]

Wait, can we ask you.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Final thought, 30 seconds.

[Podcast Producer]

Wait, wait.

[Danny]

Can we ask you controversial questions really fast?

[Jefferson Bethke]

I'm down. I would like a funny, controversial. Like, what kind of chapstick do I use or something? Or I want.

[Jordan]

I want to make sure that your book. Your new book is highlighted, and then we're gonna ask you.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Done. Fighting shadows. You can find on Amazon. Barnes and Noble.

[Danny]

There you go.

[Jefferson Bethke]

What's the.

[Jordan]

What's the number one thing that you are teaching men in this book of why, why? Why should a man pick up this book and read it? What is it?

[Jefferson Bethke]

I don't think there's one man on earth who doesn't struggle with one of those seven lies. So it's like, you will absolutely find a solution. I will have to. I won't have the book. John Tyson wrote the other half. Who. If you don't know John Tyson, I think one of the smartest and most brilliant minds and thinkers in Christian America today. In the nation alive. And that's not. I'm not saying that as hyperbole. He's freaking brilliant. He's got an Australian accent, so everything sounds good. But that's what I would say is like, there's something in there. Every. Men are struggling. Men have. Whether it's lust, whether it's ambition, there's something eclipsing you. There's something holding you back from your destiny and your legacy. And I think at least one of those will resonate Cool. Yeah.

[Danny]

Love it.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay. How controversial do you get?

[Danny]

Yeah, well, they're not too bad. Okay, so for this next segment, is.

[Jefferson Bethke]

It like hot take where you have to say it like one.

[Danny]

One word kind of. No, not hot take. Like, I just want to ask you.

[Jordan]

You couldn't do it. We'd say one word and you give us.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, that's true. It's true.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah. Some.

[Danny]

Some more trending topics.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Do you guys ask everyone these or is it just like.

[Danny]

No, it's just you.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay.

[Danny]

No, honestly, I want to know your thoughts as a Christian.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay.

[Ad Read Host]

You know.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay.

[Podcast Producer]

Okay. As a.

[Ad Read Host]

You know.

[Danny]

Yeah, I want to know your question. Okay. So what are your. What do you think of the hate Taylor Swift is receiving from Christians?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Ooh. He was like.

[Jordan]

He was ready for, like, a theological, like, throw.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes, yes. Okay, so this is an interesting one for me because I am a Swifty. Love Taylor Swift. Listen to all her music. She's incredible. Now, I think the newest album was. There was a lot of it that was really good. But I think it's the first time I've been like, and here's why.

[Danny]

Guilty of sin.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, yeah. Just. Here's why. I just feel like she's getting a little cynical. She's cynical, but I think it's getting worse.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And so I'm like, ooh. And I just. I'm starting to be like, man, she's mid-30s, and it's like, is she at her platform level and her size? Is she communicating to young women that, like, it's okay to just stay in that. To stay in, like, a cynical, bitter. I don't know. All that to say. I do love her, though, and I listen and she's a bop. What do I think about now, the whole Christian thing of, like, people being she's a witch and all that stuff. You're all idiots.

[Danny]

Just like, you just.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Idiot. Just like. It bothers me so much. It bothers me so much when everything. Everyone thinks everything's demonic or a witch or a thing and stuff, because there actually is real. Some real evil stuff out there. And it's like, leave it for the real evil stuff. Yeah.

[Danny]

Thank you.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So that's what I would say.

[Danny]

And calling someone demonic or evil is.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Like a real serious accusation.

[Danny]

Really bad.

[Podcast Producer]

Bad.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Really bad. Yeah.

[Jordan]

Like, I get.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Because I post about her a decent amount when I, like, listen to her music because I. I like her. And like I said, I have some reservations on the newest one, but. Yeah, but I'll get DMS about the way I'm like, dude.

[Danny]

Just like, yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Dude. And I don't even want to imagine your guys. DMS with your guys. Platform levels. Because mine are.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Mine are rough. It's just a. It's a dumpster fire.

[Jordan]

We always talk about this. Like Christian.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. I do get it the worst. And then also because I talk about like semi deep things that they're always like really get. They get really pissy about. Yeah. Yeah.

[Danny]

Yeah. Okay. We can kind of cut this because I'm like, that was a good one though. That was a good one.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Do we feel the same about Taylor Swift? Is that. Is that semi in the same realm?

[Danny]

100 I think guilty as Sin was really my own song. But I agree with you. Like I do feel like she's becoming cynical and kind of a little bit more hardened. And it's like I want you to become positive and happy.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah.

[Danny]

Just honestly for you. Like for Taylor.

[Ad Read Host]

Exactly.

[Jefferson Bethke]

For her sake and for her and Travis to bloom and flourish. 100 and like I just need some more Tim McGraw spirit. Like.

[Ad Read Host]

I miss.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I miss. We all do on my guitar.

[Ad Read Host]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah. Come on. Come on.

[Danny]

That is so good.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Hold on. Real hot take. Favorite Taylor Swift album. That's easy for me. 1989. What's yours? 1989 is like just light years ahead.

[Jordan]

The other day.

[Danny]

He likes.

[Ad Read Host]

Okay.

[Podcast Producer]

Honestly.

[Danny]

I think that.

[Podcast Producer]

Yeah.

[Danny]

I would say. Okay. Oh.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Is that yours? Yeah. Reputation's up there.

[Danny]

I think we got canceled that year.

[Jefferson Bethke]

So it just spoke to you. You suffered together with Taylor.

[Danny]

No. I literally did. Like.

[Podcast Producer]

You have no.

[Danny]

No idea. I would just put on Taylor Swift and like herself like, look what you made me do. And I just sit there crying. Like. So I think Reputation just like it helped me.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes. There's a story behind that. That wins.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Podcast Producer]

Okay.

[Danny]

This. Let's see. Let's talk about the church. What do you see as your role in the church? I feel like you don't fit into the pastoral box.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I'm certainly not a pastor. Certainly not a pastor. I mean the book of Ephesians and some of these other epistles would give very, very clear delineations of like. Like pastor, apostle, teacher. There's certain roles. I. I would say I have apostolic tendencies. Now let me explain that for a second. And why I said that careful is like, I don't think I'm an apostle. Like. And it depends on the denomination in which you believe that apostolic tendencies would be someone who's teacher based. And that's. I do try to lean into that. I Do want to think and teach and spend most of my life trying to hopefully serve people with words and teaching. And then an apostolic influence or an apostolic nature is someone who's basically a little bit more like regional. So I think anyone on the Internet is actually apostolic. I think to some degree, you guys could even be considered that at the really large definition of that word. It just means, like, apostolic means a voice beyond a local community. Does that make sense?

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And so I just think that's my role. And so. And I actually think that's subservient, by the way, to local communities, not above. And what I mean by that is, like, my job is to be embedded in a way that's helping and discipling Christians with. With certain thinking and certain viewpoints, but then come under underneath and make sure I'm serving and honoring and equipping the people, doing the really hard work of the local church, but absolutely not a pastor, dude. I'm like, so Alyssa loves being married to me and then hates being married to me because I do not have a pastor's heart, man. It's like someone shares something. I'm just like, sucks to be you. I'm. I have to pray so hard, like, just be empathetic. You know what I mean?

[Danny]

That's hilarious.

[Jefferson Bethke]

And pastors need that skill set big time.

[Danny]

Let's see. Is there such. Is there such thing as celebrity pastors, or is that just an unfair name given to pastors on Instagram? If so, how do you feel about them, given you are friends with a lot of them? Should pastors have celebrity status?

[Jefferson Bethke]

I was just gonna say, well, it's really tough when you're friends with a lot of them. I would say, oh, this is a really nuanced conversation. Quickly, I would say, okay, how would I say this? I think some people inflame it, meaning, like, they like it, and they're trying to multiply what it does for them and how it helps them. I think that's wrong. I think that's for ill gain from a Christian perspective. And I think some are just like, man, I'm not in control of having this much influence. I need to steward it and be sensitive to it. I do think no matter which one you are, you are responsible for the optics of you. Does that make sense? And I think sometimes people try to scapegoat that meaning, like, take the preachers and sneakers thing or whatever. It's like, dude, is it. Can we maybe make an argument that it's cool to have $5,000 sneakers? Maybe I Wouldn't agree with that. And I struggle with that. And then also, at least as a pastor, I think anyone can have. You know what I mean? Like, that's because of the optics of what that means to be a pastor. And so it's like that. Yeah. And she agrees. Is that Stella?

[Jordan]

She agrees.

[Jefferson Bethke]

She's like, amen. And so I think. So I think pastors, that's the best way I would say it. People with really, really large followings and who write books and are also pastors have to be sensitive to the optics that are true about them that they're not in control of, but need to sensitively be, like, aware of.

[Danny]

They're responsible of that.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Responsible. They're responsible. They're not responsible for everything, but I think they're responsible for their own optics. Sorry, not the optics that they get, but they're responsible for understanding them and sensitively stewarding them. And at the end of the day, if they're a true pastor, biblically, they're called to serve a local place with local people, not be doing all the things on Instagram. So sometimes I'm like, dude, are you even at your church? You know what I mean? Because you're just traveling and speaking all the time and all these things, and there's. Yeah, it's fine. Like, I don't. You know. But then also, I will say, to defend a lot of people, there's a lot of people that get a lot of crap online, and I'm like, man, when you're having coffee with them, like, they love the Lord fervently, wholeheartedly, and devotedly, and you just wish people could see that side of them. So, like, all that's true.

[Danny]

Yeah, that was really good answer.

[Jefferson Bethke]

You guys agree or disagree?

[Danny]

I agree. I think my one struggle is I'm like, okay, so if they're responsible for the optics, so they're not wearing the $5,000 sneakers on stage, but then you go to their home and they're wearing the $5,000 sneakers and all the Cartier. And I'm like, that just kind of turns me off even more.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, no, I agree with that. I agree with that. And, yeah, I would still put that in the same bucket. And I really don't like when a lot of Christian, like, I don't like when a lot of Christian pastors with a large following use the same, like, tools as, like, the business world and the influence world. Does that make sense, too?

[Danny]

It's a bother to me 100%. We talk about they're doing all the Click funnels and all of this stuff all the time.

[Jefferson Bethke]

It just feels a little manipulative in a religious environment.

[Jordan]

Yes.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Even though it's totally appropriate in a normal other environment.

[Ad Read Host]

100.

[Danny]

We talk about that all the time.

[Jordan]

We talk about a lot. Like how they're. They're not really. It's almost like if you have someone who's a secular influencer and a Christian influencer, like both are trying to achieve the same thing, whether that's growth in the business. Like, we're just kind of being more honest about it.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Totally.

[Jordan]

A lot of totally who I think are, you know, doing things in the name of God.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, I'm doing it for the Lord.

[Jordan]

I'm doing it for the Lord.

[Jefferson Bethke]

It's like, again, you're getting a crap ton of benefits.

[Jordan]

The longer you lie to yourself that that's what you're doing it for, like, the harder you're going to fall.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Totally.

[Jordan]

I think you've seen that in church.

[Danny]

If Jesus or the disciples.

[Jefferson Bethke]

These are hot.

[Danny]

If Jesus or the disciples walked on earth today, do you think they would evangelize via social media?

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yes. Jesus, maybe not. I actually don't know. That's the question we got to ask him when we get there. I don't think you can make the argument. I think it's a really weak argument to say that Paul wouldn't. Now, Paul, technically a disciple. He's an apostle. I don't. But like Paul, like, I mean, so you can't read the book of Acts and be like, it's very clear. He's using every point of technology available to him in the first century. Which would have been. So, like. Here's another way to put it. Paul is very clearly evangelizing via the marketplace. That was one of his primary domains. The marketplace in the first century was like the street fair with all the vendors, right? And there's a lot of people that, like the most amount of people show up there. So he picked that strategically. Or the middle of a stadium, like, you know, like the. The gladiator stadium. He's, you know, and I think it's Acts 16 or 17. He has the riot in Ephesus where they literally pull him in there and try to stone him. And then he says, hold on, let me preach. And the dude's just preaching bangers in front of all these people that are pissed at him. And you're like, dang. So he, like. He took advantage of all the largest rooms, all the largest moments for. From a multiplication stewardship standpoint. And you're like, well, it's really hard to draw, like, if you're gonna draw one to one today, what's the marketplace? It's certainly not the, like, farmer's market. Yeah. It's like social media. It's Twitter. It's exactly, well, X. And I mean, that place is a dumpster fire now. Yeah. Good luck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good luck. So I would say that. And then even back to our earlier point too, when you're talking about the culture and all, that's how Christians be in culture. Paul, also, like, what's one of my favorite parts about him in acts is there's multiple times where he uses cultural voices to, like, critique the culture. So he's basically using their currency, their language, the people they look up to, to actually say, hey, your people say this like you're not paying attention. Then he kind of twists it and use it. It's kind of. If someone were to use like some line from Drake or something and be like, hey, he's saying it too, or something. I don't know. But that's really what he was doing. He was using the poets and the preachers of that day that weren't Christian to leverage his point and push it farther. Short answer. I do think he would. What about you guys?

[Danny]

I. I don't know about Jesus either.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Yeah, that's a tough one.

[Ad Read Host]

I don't know.

[Jefferson Bethke]

He seems a little more. He seems a little more introverted. He just really does.

[Danny]

But I can't wait to ask him.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I don't know if he would have. I actually don't know if he would have. And I might make a case for why he wouldn't. But I'll think about that in the next episode. Yeah, absolutely.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

Let's wrap.

[Danny]

Let's wrap.

[Ad Read Host]

Okay.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Okay. See ya.

[Danny]

Yep.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Done.

[Podcast Producer]

No.

[Danny]

Okay, so tell us again where everyone can find your book and your Instagram, all your socials.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Jefferson Bethke. Instagram is the one I'm most active on, so just go there. I like responding and talking to people and doing stuff there. And then the book on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Fighting Shadows.

[Podcast Producer]

Thank you so much for being here.

[Danny]

We all learned so much. We appreciate it.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Thank you for having me.

[Danny]

We might have to have you back.

[Jefferson Bethke]

I mean, I'm down.

[Ad Read Host]

Please note that this episode may contain.

[Podcast Producer]

Paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services.

[Jefferson Bethke]

Individuals on the show may have a.

[Ad Read Host]

Direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.