← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“60% think Trump is making the war in Iran sound better than it is”
00:42:41
July 27, 2026; 5pm: Nicolle Wallace and guests break down the American people’s exasperation with the consequences of the war in Iran which has since taken the lives of 18 servicemembers and wounded 624.
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- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
Watch Disclosure Day at home now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you, would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Koepp, starring Emily Blunt, Josh o', Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson and Colman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required. Also in theaters.
- [00:31]
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- [01:05]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
There's something uniquely despicable about lying a nation into war, treating citizens as fools and the selfless patriots who serve as pawns. Five months later, we're still bombing. Americans are still dying. Iran still has its uranium. Hormuz is still closed. I challenge anyone to defend it. A war built on lies told by a White House utterly absent figures of integrity to dissuade the president from his delusions.
- [01:45]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again, Everybody. It's now five o'clock in the east. A war built on lies that continues to be held up with more lies and manipulation of sad truths. Last week we saw the number of troops killed in the Iran war suddenly appear lower on the Pentagon's website. This weekend, an update from reporting in the New York Times, quote, in an unusual new accounting method, casualties since July 7, when the ceasefire began unraveling and fighting escalated, are not listed on a Pentagon website with others since the war began, but rather on a new website labeled generically as overseas operations casualties. This means that a full accounting of the overall casualties requires adding numbers from separate web pages. Now, when you add them up, it does come to the total of 18 troops killed and 624 wounded since the war began on February 28th. But by breaking up the numbers based on certain time frames in the war, Donald Trump seems to be trying to communicate to the public that these are different conflicts, different timelines. We give him more time to continue the war without congressional approval. Importantly. But the manipulation of those numbers, which aren't numbers at all, but human beings, does not change what's happening. This twisting of the truth to make things appear better on the surface is eerily reminiscent of The Donald Trump of six years ago, right at the very beginning of the COVID pandemic, He was on March 6, 2020, speaking about a cruise ship landing in San Francisco where people on board had tested positive for Covid.
- [03:19]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
They would like to have the people come off.
- [03:21]
Chris Hayes
I'd rather have the people stay, but
- [03:22]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
I'd go with them. I told them to make the final decision. I would rather because I like the numbers being where they are. I don't need to have the numbers
- [03:31]
Chris Hayes
double because of one ship.
- [03:33]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
That wasn't our fault.
- [03:37]
Nicole Wallace
They like the numbers where they are. Don't want to see the numbers. So Trump's on the record as having a fear of real numbers. He gets frustrated when he's not in control of the narrative and the numbers. And just like with his horrific, deadly handling of the COVID pandemic, his handling of the war in Iran is not sitting very well with the vast majority of the American people. A new CBS News YouGov survey finds that 61% of all Americans disapprove of U.S. military action against Iran. 67% of all Americans say Donald Trump should end the war. Right now, it's leaving Trump trapped by the consequences of the war he launched. About that, David Sanger of the New York Times writes this, quote, he has been unable to control surging oil prices or their effects on the stock market. The shipping that crawled to a stop in the Strait of Hormuz, then was opened for a few short weeks, is back to a trickle with a second choke point between the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aid. Aden now threatened. And while the President has threatened to take Kharg island, where Iran ships oil, or to seize its underground stores of enriched uranium, he has said publicly that he knows there is no appetite for sending in ground troops. Those limits have left him deeply frustrated, his aides say, and have made him even more erratic, even by Trumpian standards. Donald Trump's loss of control and effort to subvert the truth is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling is back. He served as the commanding general of the US army in Europe. And. And our friend, the former Senator Claire McCaskill, is here as well. General Hartling, your thoughts, your analysis of this effort to separate out those who have lost their lives and been injured.
- [05:18]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
Yeah. What was interesting to me, Nicole, is last week, as all this was beginning to foment, I kept a track. I kept that website open for about four days, four or five days, every single day after the Department of Defense Said it was a technical glitch that caused these numbers not to be reported correctly. It was never fixed. The last time I looked at it was Saturday afternoon, about 5 o' clock Sunday. I think this new category appeared of the overseas operations as opposed to calculating these casualties, both the killed in actions and the wounded in action in the operation that was ongoing in Iran. So it's manipulation of data. That's the only thing you can say. And I don't say that to try and repudiate the administration, although I will. It is just manipulation of human lives because every casualty matters, every casualty deserves to be counted, and families and Congress deserves transparencies and truth in numbers. But it struck me on Sunday when I saw the new data that this was not a data point. This was a trend line. I mean, we have seen this president insult the suckers and losers, not go to cemeteries. When he was visiting Paris or visiting France a few years ago, question General Kelly about his son dying and saying, what did he do it for? And now he's using the. These casualty figures as a marketing exercise. Look over here, we don't. We haven't had that many killed or wounded. And it's just wrong. I mean, it's abhorrent as a military leader to see this because I think when I was in combat, we had a data sheet where we not only tracked killed in actions, but wounded in actions, and broke that down even further to various seriously wounded. Seriously wounded. And when you had someone who died of wounds later on outside the battlefield, we continue to track them. Even if they left Iraq and they were back at Walter Reed or Beaumont Hospital and they died back there, we were still tracking them. And to have these kind of figures be manipulated as some type of marketing or spin exercise is just abhorrent.
- [07:52]
Nicole Wallace
You named and cited some of the deep reporting on Donald Trump's indifference to those who sacrificed their lives in service of the country. The Arlington Cemetery was the location of that conversation with General John Kelly where he said, I don't understand why they do it. But there's also a deep body of reporting, General Hertling, about his disdain for those who are injured or maimed in service of this country, something he said when someone in his White House, John Kelly, was his chief of staff. And I don't remember specifically who he said it to, about injured soldiers. He said, quote, no one wants to see that, about having them participate in a military parade. And there's also some deep reporting, I believe in the Atlantic or in one of the books written either by Michael Bender or Michael Schmidt of the New York Times about how he didn't want troops who were injured in the line of duty at a service honoring General Mark Milley. So he does have a well documented disdain for the men and women injured in service of the country. What does it mean to hold up that deeply sourced reporting over a decade on the part of Donald Trump next to manipulated data specifically about those injured in the war in Iran?
- [09:06]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
Well, it seems especially dishonest, Nicole, because he is such a vain man. He's concerned with his own looks to the extreme and how he looks. And yet the soldiers, the individuals who are wounded in actions, who suffered burns or amputations, who have to go through as say, a 19 year old when they suffer those injuries the rest of their life adapting to it and they don't have a choice, that makes it especially vile, especially in my view. You know, these are some of the soldiers. You know, again, I was looking at the casualty figures. There were 4400 killed in action in Iraq and Iraqi freedom. There were 31,000 wounded in action on that same data list. On the list that came out that he updated that the president's, the Department of Defense updated and opened this new category, there were four killed and not 100 wounded, which was claimed. I think it was 140 wounded. So even in that what Secretary or Under Secretary for Public Affairs Parnell said was we only had about 100 wounded in action. It actually was 140. So that was a new data point, too. And I got to tell you, these aren't just numbers. These are individuals. They are family members who care for them. There are buddies who understand when they leave the battlefield, there are people who care for these individuals and the American people more than anything else. When we're talking about combat and taking our country to war, they want transparency and truth. And when we lose that, that could be, I'm just spitballing here, but that could be the reason why no one is supporting this, this war and no one is supporting the president as he tries to fight it. The polling data is off the chart. And I'm not usually one that goes to polling data. But you can understand when you don't know what the truth is, when the American people in the Congress don't know what's happening and when there is an obvious manipulation of figures and data points, you can understand why the loss of integrity creates this kind of chasm between the American public and the president of the United States and his administration.
- [11:31]
Nicole Wallace
Claire McCaskill, the disapproval of the war is uniquely Bipartisan in a moment, we are told over and over again is deeply polarized. The rebukes for this manipulation of data equally bipartisan. Let me read you what Republican Congressman Thomas Massie wrote on Twitter, quote, let me explain this absurd ruse. The Pentagon is pretending there have been two Iran wars separated by a brief ceasefire. The reality, by going more than 90 days without congressional authorization, the Secretary of War is breaking the law and must be held accountable. What does that mean? To accuse Pete Hegseth of crimes and say that he has to be held accountable? Is that impeachment that he's calling for?
- [12:17]
Claire McCaskill
Well, he hasn't said that word, but I think Massie would be on board with that. I don't know how many other Republicans were. What I've mostly seen are Republicans who know better being big cowards, especially the senators on the Armed Services Committee. And let me say something that Mark, that General Hartling did not say. I think people need to understand, why do they do it? Well, as someone who was honored to sit on the Armed Services Committee and have a front row seat to the military ethos and leadership in the United States of America, it was awe inspiring. And one of the reasons they do it is because they love their country, they want to serve, and they believe deep down in their bones that if they are wounded or lose their life, they will receive the respect of the Commander in Chief and government leaders and hopefully most Americans. And playing games with data to make yourself look better, government data, that's one thing. But playing with numbers, playing with data that impact those who have said, take me, I'm willing to die, that is a whole other level of sin. Not only does that impact how we see the war, but it also impacts our military in terms of their morale, in terms of how they view their military leadership. If Pete Hegseth thinks doing push ups out in front of some base is the way to get the military all jazzed up and happy. He doesn't understand rule one about Americans military. And that is it is all about leaving no one behind, taking care of one another, and most of all showing respect for our wounded and those who pay the ultimate price. And what this Pentagon is showing right now is they could give two hoots about that. They don't care about respecting the people who have been injured and have lost their lives. They're more worried about fashioning a way that nobody can figure out how badly they are botching what they're trying to do, in fact how badly they're botching whatever they're trying to do because none of us are really sure what they're even trying to accomplish. It is so bad. Every time I think they've gotten as bad as they can get at the Pentagon, it gets worse.
- [15:00]
Nicole Wallace
Claire. The American people either have consumed enough information to render the same judgment, or they just intuit that the fact that Marco Rubio and J.D. vance and Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth don't even say the same thing within the same news cycle means that this is not a clearly sort of thought out operation. If they can't in the fifth month come up with a similar song sheet. Let me just share some of the polling. This is from the CBS YouGov poll. This is how the Daily Beast reports it. Two thirds, 63% of Americans believe the conflict is going badly for the United States of America. 76%, almost 80% of Americans believe that it has been harder than Donald Trump expected. So almost 80% of Americans now think that Trump was duped or Trump was incompetently headstrong in starting a war. Almost 80% believe it's been harder than Trump expected. And 60% believe that the President is essentially lying, that Donald Trump makes the situation in Iran sound better than it is. Where do you go from there, Claire?
- [16:05]
Claire McCaskill
That's a good question. And what really is scary about this is that he went into this conflict without listening to his experts. I promise you there were people in the military, maybe not Pete Hexit, but there were other people in the military that were urging caution, explaining to him that this is not going in and yanking a guy out of Venezuela. This is a whole nother very complicated deal to do unless you're committing to full out war with ground troops. He thought he could just do this and you know, he would be, oh, look how cool our bombers are and look how we can bomb them and they're going to fold, just like what happened in Venezuela. Instead, we have a more extreme leadership. We have the strait of our moose closed when it was open. We now have another choke point in terms of oil. We have no idea what's going on with uranium. We have no deal on nuclear power or nuclear enrichment. So this is a mess created by an ego that refuses to listen to people who know more about it than he does. And shame on them and shame on the people sitting in the room that didn't try harder to stop him, especially those United States senators that should have been doing more to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're not going to be able to go in and out. This won't happen that way.
- [17:34]
Nicole Wallace
There is a mystery as well to deal with General Hurtling. You write about it, I'll give a little tease ahead of the break. After 13 consecutive nights of American bombing of Iran, the 14th night was quiet. We'll read the rest of it on the other side of the break. We'll also bring into our conversation the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. We'll put that question to him. We'll also ask him about efforts Donald Trump is undertaking to break or destroy the intelligence community and how it's now left Trump stuck in his war with Iran. Congressman Jim Hines joins our conversation. Plus, Trump is escalating another war, this one with the Smithsonian museum, why he feels the need to warn Americans about our own actual factual history. And news that basketball megastar LeBron James is joining a brand new team rock the sports world over the weekend. And it prompted a very typical yet very telling react from Donald Trump, who can't seem to stand the success of anyone who doesn't kiss up to him. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today. Watch Disclosure Day at home now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you, would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Koepp starring Emily Blunt, Josh o', Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson and Colman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required. Also in theaters.
- [19:14]
Monday.com Advertiser
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- [19:29]
Claire McCaskill
There's a lot of news to cover. Money the economic fallout from the war
- [19:34]
Nicole Wallace
is a temporary power.
- [19:35]
Claire McCaskill
Is this White House for sale? Politics what is your message to the country right now?
- [19:40]
Eddie Glaude
Money Power Politics with Stephanie rule, weekdays
- [19:42]
Shaquille O'Neal
at 9am Eastern on Ms. Now.
- [19:47]
Nicole Wallace
So being briefed on and accepting as true, the best and most accurate intelligence available is how a normal president is able to make informed decisions about what to do in times of peace and even more importantly during wartime. But that stream of intelligence or information reaching Donald Trump, the leader of our country is in serious doubt and question right now under Donald Trump, who we know only wants news and information that he wants to hear. So much so that someone prints out positive social media posts for him. Dear friend of this program and the former deputy director of National Intelligence, Sue Gordon shared her concerns about this as the Iran war rages on. Take a listen to what she told me in the latest episode of the Best People.
- [20:36]
Sue Gordon
If he is believable that no one told him that the Strait of Hormuz would be closed, it is almost beyond imagining how intelligence has value and our system can work if the person at the top of it who has the most power feels the least responsibility.
- [21:00]
Nicole Wallace
Has he broken intelligence?
- [21:02]
Sue Gordon
I think it is a in all our institutions and intelligence is no different. We've lost so much talent. There's so much stress inside the system that I think it's probably not as robust as it was. But the women and men that are still there are fighting really hard and pulling really hard. It does matter whether intelligence is able to remember that its only job is to see what is rather than what is preferred and to be willing to be massively inconvenient in the retelling of that. And if that doesn't happen, then I would say intelligence has lost its value because that's its role.
- [21:52]
Nicole Wallace
Joining our coverage, Democratic Congressman from Connecticut Jim Himes is here. He is the ranking member on the House Intelligence Committee. Jim Hertling and Claire McCaskill are still with us. Congressman, your understanding of this bizarre reclassification of those who have lost their lives in the war with Iran and your sense or your concerns about the reliability of the information we're getting about the war with Iran.
- [22:19]
Chris Hayes
Yeah, thanks for having me. Nicole. Look to your first question. It's very clear what's happening here. There aren't many mysteries associated with what Trump and his people do. They had this idea that casualties going up would further make this war politically unpalatable. It already is. But obviously additional casualties makes it more so. And so they tried a funky sleight of hand to suggest that they were lower than they in fact were. And the thing they didn't predict is just how hideous Americans would view this. I don't care how committed you are to the MAGA movement and to the notion that the President is always right. When you see the photo of the 19 year old young woman who was killed and you think that this White House is using her death or trying to hide her death for political purposes, that is, I think most Americans would tell you well beyond the pale, you know, with respect to intelligence, you know, you got it from Sue Gordon right there. There aren't many people as thoughtful and as competent about the intelligence community as Sue Gordon. And she's right. She's right. I mean, two things to say about it, we've lost real talent. The intelligence community is made up of thousands of enormously patriotic, very competent people. But they're people, right? So when a guy like Bill Pulte or Tulsi Gabbard or whoever else makes it very clear what they want, you know, people bend. People have a sense for incentives. And the problem with that. And it hasn't come up, but the problem with that. You and I are both old enough to remember what happens when the intelligence community does what the President wants. You'll remember George Tenet, then director of the CIA, promising George W. Bush that the case for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was, to quote him, a slam dunk. Thousands of dead Americans later and no weapons of mass destruction. And you have a sense for how absolutely essential it is that the intelligence community never be dominated or even influenced by what the desires of the President may be.
- [24:19]
Nicole Wallace
Let me read you something General Hertling wrote and ask you if you have any leads that you can share with us publicly. He writes this in the Bulwark. Why did Trump stop the bombing, quote, After 13 consecutive nights of American bombing of Iran? The 14th night was quiet. That silence has generated almost as much speculation as the strikes themselves. The New York Times reported that Trump ordered the halt out of concern that the US Is running dangerously low on on missile interceptors. But that concern doesn't preclude other reasons for pausing the strikes. Are nascent diplomatic efforts indicating a path beyond military operations? Did America's regional partners quietly urge restraint? Or did the President's advisers conclude that continued bombing was no longer advancing America's strategic objectives? We may not know the answers for months, perhaps years, but it may be getting through to the administration that the strategy of airstrikes it has pursued against Iran for five months. Advancing political objectives. I guess two questions for you. One, do you know why the bombing stopped after 13 nights? And two, do you have any information about what a lot of reporting suggests is absolutely true, and that is our low stockpiles of munitions?
- [25:32]
Chris Hayes
Yeah, yeah. I mean, without being too specific, you know, the pause in the bombing is reflective of the strategic box that the President has gotten himself into and in which there's no clear exit. And in my analysis and opinion, I would tell you that it's driven by three things in order of importance. Number one, the President has a feel for his own numbers and his own politics. Right. And he understands that when oil is at $100 a barrel, his numbers are headed south because that means gasoline is a buck 50 more than it was four months ago for every single American. And he understands the political toxicity of that secondarily. And I'm not sure how much the President thinks about this, but I do assume that behind closed doors, his military advisers are telling him that we are running very, very low of those defensive weapons that we need, that we'd love to send to Ukraine, that we'd absolutely need in the event of a conflict in the Indo Pacific. And then thirdly, imagine what the rest of the world is saying now. I don't know that Donald Trump cares about the rest of the world. I think he probably listens to Saudi Arabia, who are having their cargo ships attacked. But Asia right now is in absolute economic crisis. So I have to believe that there are any number of foreign countries who are saying our economy is about to enter into a depression because of this war, so cool it and make a deal.
- [26:48]
Nicole Wallace
General Hertling, you're the author of those words, your analysis of why the bombing stopped.
- [26:54]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
Yeah, if I can just generate some more thought about this. You know, having been a member of the Joint Staff a long time ago, I've sat around in meetings with the J1 through the J8. Now, America doesn't know what those people are, but each one of Those J sections 1 through 8 gives the chairman of the Joint Chiefs information. And the information has everything to do with either personnel, intelligence, operations, what foreign nations are doing, what the logistics status is like, or what the base status is like. And I would suggest that over the last five months, every one of those Joint Staff officers, all of them either two or three stars, are telling the chairman, you've got to tell the President. This is the current status. Unfortunately, when the Chairman goes to the White House, he's part of a group of people that are all whispering in the President's ear. And I would suggest that General Kaine probably is sharing the information he's getting from his staff. But when you're surrounded by a bunch of other people who just tell the President what he wants to hear, then it's problematic. You know, you just had Sue Gordon on, and she's a hero to many military people because she was a great intelligence person. But there was also a Director of Defense Intelligence, a guy by the name of Lieutenant General Jeff Cruz, who was fired just because he said that the nuclear capability of Ron were not obliterated, or his analysts couldn't conclude that just yet the day after the bombing. So, yeah, it puts a chill on the individuals who are trying to talk to the President and give him factual data. But as you just said, Nicole. He's got his own calculations. Unfortunately, most of his gut feel is not based on either fact or logic or valid, validated truth. And that's the problem. He's, he's spitballing it.
- [28:54]
Nicole Wallace
Congressman Jim Himes, General Mark Ertling and Claire McCaskill, thank you so much for being part of our coverage today. We played a little bit of my latest interview for the Best People podcast. It's with Sue Gordon from this week's episode. Please watch the whole thing. It's one of the most important conversations we've had since the podcast launched more than a year ago. You can listen to the entire episode now by scanning the QR code on your screen or download the Best People wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Donald Trump has made a career out of whitewashing the truth and our history. Now he's going even further and what is being described as one of the, quote, dumbest and most bizarre executive orders ever. You're talking Donald Trump. That's saying something. We'll have that story next.
- [29:42]
Monday.com Advertiser
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- [29:58]
Chris Hayes
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why is this Happening? The explosive and unsettling rise of prediction markets. I think legally the Supreme Court is going to ultimately decide how these things should be regulated. If there's a Democratic administration after Trump, I do think they're going to crack down. But you can see Kalshee already trying to ahead of that by staffing up with former Biden people, with former Democratic senators as a way of sort of signaling to the world we're not just a Trump thing. The Trump family loves us. But look at all of our Democratic lobbyists. So they are definitely staffing up and readying for that fight. That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow.
- [30:40]
Nicole Wallace
In a major escalation of Donald Trump's authoritarian instincts and efforts to take control of our cultural institutions for the purpose of rewriting our country's true history, Donald Trump signed an executive order calling for the signage to be added near the Smithsonian National Museum of American history in Washington, D.C. that cautions visitors about what he deems to be inaccurate information. Says the president, who lies more than he breathes. As the Washington Post is reporting. Trump's new executive order, quote, directs Interior Secretary Doug Burgum to erect temporary signage along the National Park Service controlled sidewalks and walkways the public uses to reach the museum. The signs would inform visitors of the White House's criticisms, tell them the museum's exhibits should be renovated, and direct them to locations and resources for accurate information regarding American history. The order is rooted in a July 4 report from the White House that accuses the museum of, quote, extreme political activism and claims it cannot be trusted to tell America's story honestly. But as Congresswoman Melanie Stansbury says, quote, this is one of the dumbest and most bizarre executive orders we have ever read. Clearly, the administration knows they are trying to commit executive overreach over our nation's independent cultural institutions. This EO is a clear political overreach driven by an ideological agenda to rewrite American history. Our Smithsonian institutions do not belong to the president, but to the American people, and so does our nation's history. Let's bring into our conversation civil rights attorney and president of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, Maya Wiley. Also joining us, Princeton University professor and political analyst Eddie Glaude. Eddie, I feel like this just picks up right where you and I left off in our podcast conversation about the book you just wrote. Your thoughts?
- [32:34]
Eddie Glaude
Absolutely. Well, first, it's great to see you, Nicole. I think it's important for us to ask ourselves the question, what is the ideological motivation for this? There is a sense in which Donald Trump and the folk who support him, they want to be white supremacists without judgment. They want to be able to hold this ideology that is, in so many ways, motivating. The assault on dei, the assault on affirmative action, the assault on collecting demographic data by the EEOC and the like. They don't want history to offer resources to judge them. And so I think we need to understand this as part and parcel of the second lost cause, and that involved an assault on what we know and how we know in order to justify a particular racial regime.
- [33:19]
Nicole Wallace
Maya, let me read a little bit more about what they're trying to do here. The executive order of the American Historical association said the plan to station government material outside the museum was, quote, an absolute affront to the professionals who work in the building and likened the signage to issuing a trigger warning to visitors before they encounter exhibits such as the Star Spangled Banner. Her deepest worry, she said, was that the campaign would erode public trust in an institution that teachers and researchers have relied on for more than 150 years. The White House is essentially telling the American public not to trust the Smithsonian Institution. I mean, the racism is so in your face, but the effort to sow distrust in that which is demonstrably true is so dangerous. And now extending it to our most beloved cultural institution feels like a real acceleration.
- [34:16]
Maya Wiley
Well, it's absolutely an acceleration. I agree with Eddie on the work this is trying to do, and let's put a fine point on it. I mean, this is a culmination from this administration and, you know, frankly, complaining about what courses are being taught in colleges and universities, sending a dear colleague letter to teachers even in the K through 12 level of education, literally trying to control what is taught and what people can learn. So it is had its sights also on the Smithsonian. We're just talking about people who are trying to do their jobs in teaching history in all its complexity. And as we know, teaching history, to Addie's point, this is really about controlling of how we think moving forward, not what happened in the past. We all know what happened in the past. Whitewashing it is not helpful to anyone unless what you're trying to do is take control of institutions that are helping us all understand how not to repeat the mistakes and the sins of the past. Because remember that the Trump administration, the White House, Donald Trump personally, does not control the Smithsonian's institutions. So this is another example of using, and I would argue abusing power to undermine cultural institutions that are here to serve. A conversation we're supposed to have in this country and supposed to have repeatedly as we continue to author our future and try to figure out how we prevent the past from being our future. And that's what's at stake.
- [35:53]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, the consequences we don't expect Trump to be moved by, but the sort of stupidity in terms of it being the low hanging fruit for authoritarians is something that Adam Kinzinger, former Republican member of Congress, writes about. I want to read that to you, Eddie. The Smithsonian versus the authoritarians. Leaders who don't tolerate criticism often target museums, universities and the press. Museums preserve documents and objects that may contradict what the government says. Scholars examine official claims and publish evidence. Reporters record what politicians say, making it harder for them to deny it later. Trump's attacks on cultural institutions is not a new strategy. Authoritarian leaders often begin by taking control of universities, museums and the press. In 1931, Mussolini required Italian university professors to swear loyalty to the fascist regime. Nazi officials purged cultural institutions, removed thousands of works they labeled degenerate from German museums, and dictated who could work in art, film, music, and publishing. Viktor Orban's government gained influence over much of Hungary's media and transferred universities to foundations headed by political allies. Again, this isn't some woke left wing journalist making those points. This is former conservative Republican Adam Kinzinger making the point. And this is, I think, just important to put out there as undeniable factual history of the practices of authoritarians. Eddie, I wonder your thoughts about how much progress Donald Trump has tragically made in pursuing these three areas. Universities, the deals to capitulate and pay him off, the press sitting there and humiliating them while they're all sitting in the room Friday night. And this signage outside the Smithsonian, oh,
- [37:46]
Eddie Glaude
my God, Nicole, we're there. I mean, he's been extraordinarily successful. American higher education has been devastated by this. You can see how it's functioning. You can see the way it's changing admissions calculus, it's changing what's being taught in the classroom and the like. And, you know, these folk aren't interested in history. They're interested in heritage. And we can call it stupid, but we need to be clear. This is driven by Claremont Institute folk. This has underneath it, on. Underneath it, a kind of nationalist ideology about what constitutes a sovereign nation, about what makes us American. These people believe that this is a white republic. We talked about this not too long ago. They believe it and they want a history that, to sanction it. And so I think it's easy for us to look elsewhere, to look to Mussolini, to look to Hitler, to look to Orban. This is homegrown, Nicole. This is homegrown. This is the story we told at the end of the 19th century. This is the story that produced that educated the children, that turned out to be the violent resisters to the civil rights movement. This is homegrown. And part of what they're trying to do is to resist those resources. And that will allow us to account for them, to hold them accountable by way of history. And then the last point I would make about this is very, I think is absolutely at the heart of this. These people want to put people like me and Maya in our place. And once again, we got to raise our babies in this shit. Nicole. Once again, I'm sorry, Maya.
- [39:31]
Maya Wiley
Well, Eddie is speaking truth. My point was we won't be silent. We're not being silent, but this is linking to Eddie's really powerful and important point. If you wonder why we should be concerned about the signage outside the Smithsonian, remember, this started with the attack on diversity, equity and inclusion, which were principles. And the premise of the first reconstruction when we won a civil war that said we're all sick citizens to the second reconstruction, which was when we won things like voting rights and the ability to get a fair opportunity to get a job and be deemed qualified and not discriminated in education. But the reason I link these things is because the Supreme Court just recently said you could do partisan mapping to reduce the political power of black people or the political power of Latinos or Asians or any communities of color. Acknowledging race discrimination that happened in mapping in Alabama just recently gave it a pass. And the way they gave it a pass was by saying white people were harmed. This is all about a narrative that tries to suggest rather than we all benefit from having a constitutional and inclusive society that is still a nation, we have to work toward remembering why, remembering how and remembering what we progress we've made and the progress we haven't is really an effort at taking away what we've won, taking us backward to Eddie's point. But it isn't only going to hurt black people. It isn't only going to hurt Latinos. It's already hurting other people. And that is the point of tyranny. Find scapegoats and use it to harm the republic.
- [41:22]
Nicole Wallace
Maya and Eddie, I need you guys to stick around a little bit longer. We'll keep this going. I also want to tell you about news that basketball superstar LeBron James has decided to join the 76ers. It was met with jubilation in Philadelphia, but one person had sour grapes about it. His name is Donald. He attacked the sport's all time scoring leader and superstar in a way only he can much Trump's small heady smears reveal about Trump after a short break. So one of the great debates in sports is who is the best basketball player of all time, Michael Jordan or LeBron James? One of the more current debates was where would LeBron go? And Donald Trump decided to weigh into that debate after that second question was answered when LeBron James announced that he had signed the Philadelphia 76ers for the next season. And Trump yet again put on display how thin skinned and petty he is for the world to see. Watch.
- [42:22]
Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling
Well, Michael Jordan's a guy that's a friend of mine. Play golf with him. He's a really good guy and I think LeBron is. Maybe he's a racist, but maybe he doesn't like Trump. I don't know. But I only like people that like like me. So I would say Michael Jordan all the way.
- [42:46]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Maya and Eddie I mean, Maya, it's exhausting to cover a narcissist, but it's important not to look away from every moment that reveals that it has nothing to do with LeBron James. It has nothing to do with basketball. It has nothing to do with kids who look up to LeBron James. It has nothing to do with voters in Georgia or their places who were able to vote as the COVID pandemic sort of raged because of the way he put his finger on the scale, not for any one party or politician, but for voting rights. He made it easier for people to vote. And that pisses off Donald Trump as deep as his sort of narcissism infects him, that enrages him. Your thoughts about his inability to stay out of any story that doesn't reflect well on him or even have anything to do with him.
- [43:34]
Maya Wiley
You said it best. It is narcissism, but it's dangerous narcissism. I think we have to remember that. Sadly, the amount of hate crimes has jumped 100% in this country over the past decade. We don't have a president who's calling that out. We don't have a president who's demanding resources be put aside for it. We don't have a president that's acknowledging how black people are fundamentally the largest racial group that are suffering from hate crimes. And he doesn't acknowledge that when he says things like that there are people out there in the world who sometimes do very violent things, and no one, no one should be subject to that. So there are real consequences to his words. So in addition to his narcissism, he just needs to stop putting people in danger.
- [44:22]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. Maya and Eddie, thank you so much for starting this conversation with us. To be continued. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Starting today, hundreds of thousands of Haitian migrants living and working in the United States of America are facing the possibility of deportation to a country that humanitarian groups say is more violent than when they fled. Last month, the United States Supreme Court cleared the way for Donald Trump to remove their Temporary Protected Status, which expires today. The Temporary Protected Status Program was established by Congress more than 35 years ago for the express purpose of protecting immigrants whose home countries are unsafe or uninhabitable. But in 2026, there are growing fears about what happens next. The possible labor shortage, as studies have shown about 70% of TPS holders participate in the US workforce and the unfathomable for already vulnerable Haitian communities, where new reports say ICE is already preparing to send federal agents to make arrests as early as this week. We'll stay on top of this story. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful. Snoring, gasping for air during sleep Daytime
- [45:41]
Shaquille O'Neal
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- [45:45]
Nicole Wallace
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Shaquille O'Neal
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Nicole Wallace
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Shaquille O'Neal
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