“A bygone era of politics”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – “A bygone era of politics”

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: August 14, 2025

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Main Theme

This episode unpacks a seismic political shift as Democrats, led by California Governor Gavin Newsom, break from past norms of restraint to confront Republican hardball with equally forceful tactics. The central focus is California’s in-kind response to a Republican-led Texas redistricting maneuver, Newsom’s public challenge to MAGA politics, and the broader implications for democracy, political norms, and street-level authoritarianism, especially as federal law enforcement is used in overtly political ways.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Democrats Abandon “Go High” Politics

• Nicolle Wallace opens by marking a possible end to the era of “strongly worded letters and norms.” She frames the present moment as the Democratic Party’s decisive break from traditional restraint in the face of Republican escalation.
• “Perhaps today was the day when Democrats once and for all slam shut the door on a seemingly bygone era of politics, one of strongly worded letters and norms and going high when the other party goes low. … The Democratic Party finally said no more Mr. Nice Guy.” (00:56 – Nicolle Wallace)

2. Gavin Newsom’s Combative Speech

• Newsom flips the “fire with fire” script, accusing Trump and the GOP of repeated anti-democratic behavior and announcing California's proactive, transparent approach to counteract Republican gerrymandering in Texas.

• Newsom’s core argument: Democrats need to abandon hope for normalcy, instead meeting Republicans’ aggressive tactics with equal resolve.

  “We have got to recognize the cards that have been dealt and we have got to meet fire with fire.” (01:49 – Gavin Newsom)

• Newsom commits to unprecedented public engagement in the redistricting process—putting the new maps to a statewide ballot, making the process transparent.

  “We’re putting the maps on the ballot and we’re giving the power to the people. This will be the first redistricting ever done that way.” (02:50 – Gavin Newsom)

• He calls on other blue states to join California and not “stand back and watch this democracy disappear district by district.” (03:53 – Gavin Newsom)

3. ICE Presence Turns Political

• The appearance of masked ICE agents outside Newsom's event becomes a flashpoint, seen as an attempt by the Trump administration to intimidate and escalate rather than enforce immigration law.

• Melanie Mason (Politico) notes that the optics serve Newsom by sharpening the contrast between Republican strong-arm tactics and Democratic resistance.

  “By Trump sending—if that is what happened—Border Patrol or ICE to this press conference, it absolutely makes that dichotomy very clear … if this turns into a partisan fight … that’s a fight Democrats feel very confident they can win.” (05:49 – Melanie Mason)

• Basil Smichel and Alex Wagner stress that ICE’s presence is “political theater” and a sign of “authoritarianism.”

  “This is the first day … where the Democrats actually acted like their eyes are open and they understand the climate in which they’re fighting Republicans.” (07:49 – Nicolle Wallace)

  “The name of the game here is intimidate, intimidate, intimidate, and chill. Chill the environment ... This is what fascism—this is what authoritarianism—looks like.” (40:57 – Alex Wagner)

4. The End of Political Norms

• The hosts and panel agree: traditional political norms are dead, and Democrats’ old playbook is obsolete.

• Discussions about public fatigue with “norms” morph into a call for politicians who fight—mirroring Democratic voters' hunger for direct, forceful action rather than just aspiration.

  “The norms, they’re so dead. Like, we need a new word for dead. They’re gone. … The test isn’t … whether you can bring them back. … You can’t even build a museum to celebrate the norms unless you win elections.” (13:50 – Nicolle Wallace)

  “Hope and aspiration in many ways is a luxury. We have to deal with what’s on the ground right now.” (19:22 – Basil Smichel)

5. Comparison of Redistricting Approaches

• Alex Wagner emphasizes that California’s temporary move is distinct from Texas’ “decidedly undemocratic” process; Newsom’s plan is public, temporary, and designed to end if Texas reverses course.

  “Let’s not say this is an apples to apples comparison, because what they are doing in Texas is decidedly undemocratic. … They’re at least a hat tip towards actual democracy.” (20:48 – Alex Wagner)

6. Wider Protests and Authoritarian Escalation

• The episode connects the California events to DC, where protests are erupting in response to Trump’s federal law enforcement presence to subdue and intimidate dissent. ICE and Customs & Border Patrol checkpoints are recounted, with panelists calling the actions an unprecedented governmental show of force.

  “People walk … this is evidence of how the country is kind of coming apart. … Here is America now, where a governor who’s literally trying to save representative democracy is ringed by armed thugs, effectively at the direction of the President of the United States.” (28:29 – Alex Wagner)

  “This is about assembling troops … to suppress criticism, to intimidate perceived political opposition, to harass and intimidate people.” (35:27 – Amanda Carpenter)

7. Pushback, Public Mood, and What’s Next

• Democratic politicians, notably LA Mayor Karen Bass, quickly denounce the federal intimidation tactics—vowing not to “back down.” The episode underscores how this shift in Democratic strategy could galvanize the party base and shape the coming electoral landscape.

  “Los Angeles doesn’t get scared … We never have, we never will.” (25:55 – Statement from LA Mayor Karen Bass, read by Nicolle Wallace)

• The larger picture is drawn: the hunger among Democratic voters for a fight, a sense of unity in outrage, and tangible action to preserve democracy.

  “This fighting posture is exactly meeting what voters have been begging for for months now.” (26:41 – Melanie Mason)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• The episode’s defining line:

  “We have got to meet fire with fire.” (01:49 – Gavin Newsom)

• On the end of bygone political etiquette:

  “You can’t even build a museum to celebrate the norms unless you win elections.” (13:50 – Nicolle Wallace)

• On the federal show of force:

  “This is what fascism—this is what authoritarianism—looks like.” (40:57 – Alex Wagner)

• On the public’s need for genuine fighters, not just hope:

  “There’s a moment for aspiration, but there’s also a moment of dealing with reality. … Today people feel threatened and targeted and they want a fighter, and you’ve got to go be in that fight.” (19:22 – Basil Smichel)

• On redistricting differences:

  "He has gone so far as to say, if Texas doesn’t do it, we won’t do it either. … [Newsom's plan] is at least a hat tip towards actual democracy." (20:48 – Alex Wagner)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening thesis & Newsom’s statement: 00:56–03:44
• Newsom calls for blue state action: 03:44–04:20
• Melanie Mason on California’s shift: 04:51–05:36
• ICE agents at Newsom event: 05:36–09:16
• Analysis of Newsom’s strategy, end of norms: 09:16–14:36
• Voter hunger for more aggressive Democrats: 13:50–19:22
• Contrast in redistricting methods: 20:48–22:10
• LA Mayor Karen Bass’ response: 25:55–26:41
• Protests and authoritarian tactics in D.C.: 34:15–38:55
• ICE press office statement, reactions: 40:08–44:16
• Panel close: political theater and dangerous precedents: 44:16–45:56

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Conclusion

This episode marks a definitive moment where Democratic leaders openly discard the old rules of gentlemanly politics in response to aggressive Republican maneuvers and overt displays of federal intimidation. The panel underscores the gravity of the moment—the end of an era, the beginning of a more combative Democratic approach, and the alarming normalization of federal law enforcement as a political tool. Throughout, the conversation remains urgent, candid, and clear-eyed about the existential stakes—representative democracy itself and the need for Democrats to meet the crisis with action, not aspiration.

Transcript

[MSNBC Announcer]

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. It's 4 o' clock in the east. Perhaps today was the day when Democrats once and for all slam shut the door on a seemingly bygone era of politics, one of strongly worded letters and norms and going high when the other party goes low. When the Democratic Party finally said no more Mr. Nice Guy. Because this afternoon, actually in the last hour, California's Governor Gavin Newsom flipped the script on MAGA Republicans holding up a mirror, turning their own tactics against them in a speech designed to be an in kind response to a mid decade redistricting effort orchestrated by Texas Republicans. Look who showed up. Before the afternoon speech even got underway, Gavin Newsom's press office posted this video. ICE agents gathered outside the venue. But inside, here's what happened.

[Governor Gavin Newsom]

We're here because Donald Trump on January 6th tried to light democracy on fire, tried to wreck this country, tried to steal an election, as Alex just said, by trying to dial in for 11, almost 12,000 votes. And here we are in open, in plain sight before one vote is cast in the 2026 midterm election. And here he is once again trying to rig the system. He doesn't play by a different set of rules. He doesn't believe in the rules. And as a consequence, we need to disabuse ourselves of the way things have been done. It's not good enough to just hold hands, have a candlelight vigil and talk about the way the world should be. We have got to recognize the cards that have been dealt and we have got to meet fire with fire.

[Nicole Wallace]

Governor Gavin Newsom went on to explain how his state planned to respond to the Republican redistricting effort in Texas.

[Governor Gavin Newsom]

This is the difference between what's happening in Texas and what's happening here in California. We didn't receive a phone call from the President of the United States to then quietly go in the back room and start drawing maps and legislatively try to jam them through against the consent of the people. We're doing precisely the opposite. We're working through a very transparent, temporary and public process. We're putting the maps on the ballot and we're giving the power to the people. This will be the first redistricting that's ever done that. That's the difference. We tried to raise the standards, and these guys are not playing by any set of rules. So this time requires us to act anew, not just think anew.

[Nicole Wallace]

Newsom also took it upon himself to call on other blue state governors to do the same and to take action. Watch.

[Governor Gavin Newsom]

We can't stand back and watch this democracy disappear district by district all across this country. Not just in Texas, but in Missouri, where J.D. vance went just a week ago. In Indiana, in places like Ohio, in places like Florida, we need to stand up. Not just California, other blue states need to stand up. We need to be firm in our resolve.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. With me for the hour, MSNBC senior political analyst Alex Wagner is here. Democratic strategist and professor at Columbia University, Basil Smichel will join us momentarily. We're struggling with some tech issues on his end, but we're also joined by senior political reporter covering California politics for Politico, Melanie Mason. Melanie, take me inside how Gavin Newsom arrived at this moment today and what happens next.

[Melanie Mason]

This really is his opportunity to sort of, as he likes to say, fight fire with fire. I think that if you had told us a couple of weeks ago that we would get to this point, I don't think any of us really believe that this was real. But I think that as we saw the Texas redistricting move forward, I think that Newsom and other California Democrats felt a little bit more empowered. And particularly as they started drawing these maps, trying to figure out if they could match Texas with five Democratic seats, I think that this all started to gather momentum. And I think the, the just speed of it all has been really incredible to watch because you see now at this rally where he has labor leaders and lawmakers and senators all behind him, I mean, that's something that was unthinkable just a few weeks ago.

[Nicole Wallace]

Melanie, do you know anything about this video that the governor's office posted of a lot of masked uniformed ICE agents outside of the venue? Why were they there?

[Melanie Mason]

I did. It's funny, I was actually texting with a lawmaker before Governor Newsom's people put this out saying, you know, ICE is here. We're trying to figure out, they're arresting people. And I have to say that this could not be a bigger gift for Governor Newsom because, let's be honest, Newsom and fellow Democrats want to make what's going on now a conversation about Trump. And so by Trump sending, if that is what happened, Border Patrol or ICE to this press conference, it absolutely makes that dichotomy very clear. You know, if this is a debate about good governance or gerrymandering or sort of just the rules of play, I think Democrats actually have a tough slog. Politico. We just put out a poll this morning that found that vast majorities of both Democrats and Republicans like their independent redistricting panels. But if this turns into a partisan fight, if this turns into a referendum to. On the Trump administration and this type of ICE raid. Exactly. Sort of stirs up those partisan passions here in California. That's a fight that I think that Democrats feel very confident that they can win.

[Nicole Wallace]

This might be a dumb question, Melanie, but what I mean has, did I miss the day when ICE stopped being an immigration? I mean, are they just now a political police force? What does the ICE press office say they were doing outside Gavin Newsom's redistricting press conference?

[Melanie Mason]

You know, I haven't been in touch with DHS directly on this. I think that that's a great question to ask. And, you know, look, there have been these enforcement actions, but what's interesting is there had been this temporary restraining order here in Los Angeles because the mayor of L. A and others said that the way that ICE and Border Patrol were operating in the city was in violation of the Constitution, that they were targeting people based on skin color, based on language, based on occupation by going to these Home Depot parking lots, and that they weren't sure on sort of probable cause targeting people and doing these roving rates. So the fact that we're seeing this action, even though that situation is still working its way through the courts, is a pretty provocative action.

[Nicole Wallace]

Can you, control room, can you put the shot up again of the uniformed, masked ICE agents outside of California Governor Gavin Newsom's press conference announcing redistricting? I just want to see if there's anything that looks like the kinds of things they've been raiding, like Home Depot. We will put in a call. Right now, it's 4:06 in the east to see if we can understand why they think they're there. But, Alex Wagner, let me come to you on this. I think that this is the first day in the, what, 10, 11 years I've been covering Trump where the Democrats actually acted like their eyes are open and they understand the climate in which they're fighting Republicans. This isn't even about Trump. This really isn't about Trump. He's a lame duck. He's more unpopular than he's ever been. His two strong suits, the economy and immigration. He's in the low 30s. This is about what Republicans are doing in his name. And I wonder what you think about this first step being taken and this sort of seal being broken on the era of going high, when they don't just go low, but they live low, they win the elections low, they talk to their voters low. The entire politics has been taking place on the low road where Democrats have looked really indifferent or ambivalent or confused about traveling. Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And I mean, I think the ICE agents outside of this are a signal, at least a gesture towards the impunity with which Trump and his lackeys and his, you know, his brown shirts have been operating right, that they can do whatever they want and they can do it in a blue city, in a blue state with a blue governor.

[Nicole Wallace]

And.

[Alex Wagner]

And damn you if you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. This is the first. I do agree with you. I really do wonder. I don't want to get ahead of myself or the strange, twisted universe in which we live, but I do wonder if this is a sort of line in the sand where Democrats say, okay, we've had enough. And it is, I think, very telling and meaningful that this is happening on the issue of redistricting, which has, you know, yes, both parties used to do it, but in recent decades, the only party that seemed to care about maps that were drawn to accurately represent the American voter and American congressional districts were Democrats and progressives. And for, I guess, I mean, to not be heavy handed about it, but for the governor of California to, I guess, embrace his state's temporary self mutilation in the name of what he sees as an existential threat to democracy tells you how extraordinary the circumstances are. Right? I mean, I think everybody understands that independent commissions are the way to go in terms of drawing congressional lines. But the fact that you have outside groups saying, no, we understand why this is necessary. We understand why this is bigger than the issue of redistricting. And this is literally about saving a representative democracy in 2026. I mean, I think it's, I do think we will look back on this moment and say, okay, here is someone who has been increasingly a prominent voice in the Democratic Party and has opened up a new arsenal of ways in which Democrats must fight back against what has been an encroachment on the most basic civil liberties, the most basic freedoms, the Constitution itself, and a question about whether we really are going to be a liberal democracy in the year to come.

[Nicole Wallace]

And Alex, I mean, I've seen you interview Gavin Newsom, I think more than I've ever interviewed Gavin Newsom when you're always on location for us at political events. And I think, you know, I'm from California. I think of Gavin Newsom's political life like the way you tell the age of a tree, right? The rings, and they're sort of the rings burn into him through actual crises. He's been through both the fires in Southern California as well as the ice raids on his streets. But before that, I mean, sort of the political fire of he was at the debate, he was at the Biden debate, he was at the Harris debate, at the conventions. I mean, he has carried a lot of political water. He's also, interestingly to me, been on a bit of a fact finding mission. He's appeared on podcasts with Steve Bannon. He's dipped his toe into the manosphere, and he is at least fluent in the tactics of the maga. Right. I wonder what you think these choices reflect from him, having interviewed him as many times as you have.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, look, I think he understands the culture and is interested in the culture, and not just MAGA culture, but just American culture in a way that few other politicians are. I mean, few other politicians are hosting pop culture podcasts with Marshawn Lynch. Right? I mean, this is someone who generally and genuinely wants to dialogue and understand what's happening out there. And I think his post announcing this decision or announcing the press conference in all caps, Trump style, is like the ultimate troll of Donald Trump. Because as we all know, embarrassment and humor is Trump's kryptonite. And I think Democrats up until this point have been loathe to use the sharpest tools in their quiver, but also to engage Trump in humor and poking fun at him and trying to deflate the balloon, as it were. And I think from his fact finding, from, I think, just his posture as a politician being interested in a world beyond politics, he is much more willing to embrace tactics that other people aren't. Other politicians who are, I think, much more reliant on sort of poll tested strategies or just conflict averse? I mean, I do think the moment calls for a joyful warrior. And whether or not Gavin Newsom wins this fight, he's certainly in the arena.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. And I think, Basil, the politics of hand wringing and you know, looking for life raft on the Titanic and clutching your pearls about the norms. The norms, they're so dead. Like we need a new word for dead. They're gone. And the test isn't whether or not you can bring them back. You can't do anything. If you love the norms or you hated the norms, you can't do anything. You can't even build a museum to celebrate the norms unless you win elections. And Gavin Newsom seems to be, I'm sure a lot of Democrats understand that, but he seems to be acting on that belief maybe before a lot of other Democrats. What do you think about this moment?

[Basil Smichel]

Yeah, no, I think it's interesting. As somebody that teaches the norms, I understand when sometimes you need to break an egg here and there because we're not in a moment that any of the framers or any of the folks that support and celebrate good government ever thought we would really be in, or if they did think that we would be in this place, they assumed that the guardrails would be there to kind of protect us. But as you showed the images of ice in, you know, in, you know, outside and covered up and you know, bulletproof gear on or riot gear on, you know, that's not the America that people thought they would be in day to day. I mean, you know, it's one thing to have seen some of this after 9 11, and I was in New York after, you know, lived in, lived here all my life. So in New York after 9 11, I understand that you would have National Guardsmen and others, you know, on the streets at that moment. But this should not be our day to day life. And I think that's what America is waking up to, that this can't be our new normal. And if Gavin Newsom's the one to sort of capture that zeitgeist, capture that sentiment among so many voters who are starting to say, look, I might be libertarian where I think government shouldn't do too much, but I certainly am not authoritarian where I want government with boots on the ground and long guns in our streets saying, trying to dictate our movements and our lifestyle, that's a whole other story. So it is important. And Alex talked about this. Democrats created a lot of rules which they try to abide by good government rules, things that, you know, ways that we acknowledge things should be, but we're not anywhere near that anymore. And as I always said, you know, there was a time where if they go low, we go high matters. What matters is someone who fights. What matters is someone that stands up for the most vulnerable. Because when you're on the streets of Washington, D.C. and you're seeing people who are unhoused, it's not necessarily their fault. It could be the system's fault. But what Donald Trump is saying is that, no, it's their fault. We've moralized work in this country, and that goes back to our puritanical roots. But what we've also done is adopted this criminalization of people who are poor, people who are unhoused, folks that may not, you know, may have fallen through the system, and we blame them. And I think that's the one thing that if you're a Democrat, if you're Gavin Newsom or anybody else, you know, don't fall for the bait that the Republicans are blaming the individuals for, you know, for their situation. We have to actually look at the structural problems. We have to look at the people in charge. We should have done more. And I'll just end at this point, if you think about that bitcoin event that Donald Trump had, it was $148 million event. Suppose he had taken all of those people who gave to him and gave to that cryptocurrency and said, you know what? We want to help solve the problem of homelessness and poverty in Washington, D.C. and contribute that $148 million to the ground. What would that have done? What difference would that have made? And they could have done a press conference and a ribbon cutting to figure out affordable housing in that one city, but they chose not to do that. They chose to invest in him.

[Nicole Wallace]

But, I mean, Basil, have you met the Republican Party? I mean, they would never do that. They would never do that. They would never do that. I mean, that would never be an idea that anybody in today's Republican Party would ever, ever, ever have. They don't believe in doing. They don't believe in lifting up others. They don't. They don't even believe in staying true to their own word. I mean, they were never pro Russia or pro tariff, and they're now all for those things. But I want to push back, respectfully to you on one thing, Basil. I mean, yeah, we go high when they go low was an elegant line and a masterful scene. But I don't even know that Michelle Obama meant it to be a mission statement for the party. It is now something that Democratic voters hold against their politicians. When you look at the 63% disapproval rating for Democrats, the Democrats in that 63% are mad that they don't fight. And I wonder what you make or what you instruct about this hunger among the Democratic base for Democratic politicians who fight.

[Basil Smichel]

Yeah, you might be right. It may not have been a mission statement per se, but I do think it was a moment where a lot of people said, a lot of maybe elected officials, if not the actual grassroots, said, you know what? We're better than. What? We're better than this. We should aspire to more. And maybe that's the right sort of language, that there was a moment when we talked about hope and aspiration. And I think what's different now is we can't, you know, hope in many ways and aspiration in many ways is a luxury. We have to deal with what's on the ground right now. We have to deal with the way folks are being targeted right now. You know, and when I started in politics 30 some odd years ago, I remember somebody saying, I'm too poor to be liberal. And what that suggests is that you don't have to deal with people's reality and not just their aspiration. And I think what you're suggesting, and I absolutely agree, is that there's a moment for aspiration, but there's also a moment of dealing with reality. And what the Democrats, I think it's important for them to acknowledge is that today people feel threatened and targeted and they want a fighter, and you've got to go be in that fight.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. Alex, you look like you're bursting. What have you got?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, yeah, I just wanted to say I think we should be clear that Republicans and Democrats are doing different things. Gavin Newsom is putting this to a ballot. He's trying to preserve the people's will on this, and he is sunsetting whatever districts emerge by 2030, which is when the next census happens. So, like, yes, it is definitely a. I mean, and I just outlined the way in which I think it is. It's an. It's a newly aggressive posture for Democrats to be touching redistricting like this. But let's not say this is an apples to apples comparison, because what they are doing in Texas is decidedly undemocratic. And to the degree that Gavin Newsom and the California legislature can bring the people in and accommodate to the will of the people and make this only a temporary solve for a nefarious anti Democratic red state activity. That's what they're trying to do. He has gone so far as to say, if Texas doesn't do it, we won't do it either. So let's just, let's keep in mind that to the degree that Democrats can stay above, right, the muck of what they are trying to do in Texas and what Trump is trying to do across the country, they are. That doesn't mean they're not going to get dirty in the process. But the provisions that are at the heart of many of the changes that Governor Newsom is suggesting are legitimate. They are at least a hat tip towards actual democracy.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right. And the voters can reject it. You can do it unilaterally. All right. No one's going anywhere. I want to bring all of you back on the other side of a break because there's much more. I want to show you more of the tweets that I think, Alex, you referenced. I want to show you more of Governor Newsom and we're going to try in the break to find out why I thought they were there. Outside of Governor Gavin Newsom's event, we'll talk about whether he can lead more Democrats in other blue states to the same place that we're talking about an out of political wilderness. Also ahead, the political backlash is becoming fierce to Donald Trump's autocratic moves, protesters confronting federal agents on the streets of Washington, D.C. and one of the leading voices of the manosphere, podcaster Joe Rogan, once again loudly and publicly criticizing Donald Trump's policies. All of that contributing to what could be a new political low point for Donald Trump. And later in the broadcast, it may be summer recess on Capitol Hill and Donald Trump is hoping the Jeffrey Epstein story will simply float away. But there are important, vital voices who will not let that happen. Alicia Arden is one of Jeffrey Epstein's earliest accusers. She'll be here on her push to release the Epstein files and why this story will in no way disappear for her or any of the other victims. All those stories and more when Deadland White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Governor Gavin Newsom]

They want to rig these elections and they want the power that gerrymandering provides because they know what Donald Trump knows he's going to lose the midterms. He knows de facto his Presidency ends in 17 months when Speaker Jeffries is back in office. He knows it. Why else, why else would you try to rig the system? Why else would you make the phone call? He's a failed president. Who else sends ice? Same time having a conversation like this, someone is weak, someone is broken, someone whose weakness is masquerading as strength.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Alex Basil and Melanie. Melanie, we just got this from LA Mayor Karen Bass who says, quote, the White House just sent federal agents to try to intimidate elected officials at a press conference. The problem for them is that Los Angeles doesn't get scared and Los Angeles doesn't back down. We never have, we never will. We also have calls into the ICE press office to try to find out again, in their view, what they were doing in such a show of force. Some of them with their faces showing, but many masked outside of Governor Gavin Newsom's redistricting event. I wonder though, what you think of this message. Bernie Sanders delivered the same message about political weakness. Is that something that resonates in California?

[Melanie Mason]

Absolutely. I think at least if you're talking about Democratic based voters and remember, in this state there are a lot more Democrats than there are Republicans. And so if this turns into sort of a mobilization of the Democratic Party, I think that this kind of trolling posture, as we've talked about, Democrats have been crying out to see a fight from their leaders and this is the first opportunity that Democrats have not just to go to a protest, but not just to vote against legislation, but to actually potentially strike a blow against Donald Trump and against House Republicans. And so I think that this fighting posture is exactly meeting sort of what voters have been been begging for for months now. And I think that that's why you see all of these politicians, not just Newsom. I mean, I saw video of Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass going down to the site where the Border Patrol agents were and she was fired up. I mean, she's usually a pretty level headed, steady politician and she was coming in hot. And I think that that is reflective of the fact that they know that at least for their four voters, for their base voters, they are feeling fed up with the fact that, that there's a sense of helplessness. And so I think that that's the response we're trying to see, not just here in California, but as you said, from Democratic politicians across the country.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Alex, it also solves the other piece of the Democratic Party's DNA, this hunger to be for something and if communicated properly. To your point, this is a democratic process to save democracy. And it isn't as abstract maybe as what Liz Cheney and former Vice President Kamala Harris, I thought communicated forcefully at stop after stop, but obviously didn't carry the day in November. This is a very tangible way to be for saving democracy, at least in the state of California. Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And I think it's coming at a time when the threats against democracy feel pretty tangible, Nicole. Right. I mean, the idea that we're talking about the arrival of masked ICE agents at a governor's press conference as if they're storm troopers. Right. I mean, maybe they're conducting a raid or maybe they're just there to scare the bejesus out of anybody who might be there to support them. The governor and what he's talking about, you know, and D.C. the seat of the nation's capital, has National Guard troops wandering the streets. I mean, I do think it's about time for Democrats to be for something given how aggressive and very, very real the threats are. Now people walk. I mean, I do think this is evidence of how the country is kind of coming apart. It seems right. All of this should be taken to the grander context of like, wow, wow, here is America now, where a governor who's literally trying to save representative democracy is ringed by armed thugs, effectively at the direction of the President of the United States, who are there not to, I mean, reasonably do anything. It doesn't appear from any reporting I've seen that there was a tangible threat, but they're there to be an intimidation factor. They're there to scare people. This is, you know, it is high time the alarm bells start ringing and it is high time Democrats, I would like to see more people, more governors, more people alarmed by what is happening in the streets they call home.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, Basil, to that. There are hundreds of Republicans who voted for a very, very, very unpopular bill. So unpopular that the rep who voted for it are trying to undo it. Just ask Josh Hawley. I mean, there are very low approval ratings on Donald Trump's economic performance. There are even lower approval ratings on what is yet to come, the tariffs. There are people out shopping. I mean, how do you, I know that since November, a lot of your prescription and a lot of your hope has been in the local. But, but what do you, how do you evaluate what you're seeing out of not just elected Democrats, but the entire pro democracy side?

[Basil Smichel]

Yeah, well, I mean, when I look at Democrats, it is this sort of, I want to say hand wringing, because I don't think that's, that's accurate, but there is this sense of we need, we know we need to do something, but we also don't want to upset people that felt that we were the party of good government, that we were the party of solutions. So what I say is the most important solution is to make sure that the people that care about who we are and what we do and that care about good policy and want to feel good and comfortable about their lives here in New York or in the rest of the world. I spoke a lot about New York, but in the rest of the country, that they actually have the ability to walk the streets and not feel like they can get snatched at any moment in time. Like, that's unfortunately, that is sort of our higher, that's sort of our higher purpose right now to make sure that people feel connected and to this, to this nation, to what we aspire to and to the day to day of being able to support themselves and their families. And I think what ends up happening is that a lot of Democrats are concerned about the pendulum swing, right? Because we see it swing in one direction pretty significantly, but they concern that it swings all the way back in another direction. It's like, no, we need to just get back to some righteousness, plain and simple.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I think a lot of voters at least anecdotally think that the Republicans smashed the pendulum, right? And there's nothing swinging. And you know, to Alex's point, Alex's point, like the worst case scenario is here we are in the break glass moment. Melanie, all the action for the foreseeable future is on your beat in the state of California. I hope we can continue to call on you. Thank you so much for being part of our conversation today. Alex and Basil will stick around a little bit longer with us when we come back. As Alex has already mentioned, there are protesters on the streets of Washington. They are expressing anger and fear over Donald Trump's efforts to take over the District of Columbia. The political backlash against Donald Trump's agenda is growing louder and louder. The danger it holds for the country and Donald Trump. After a quick break. Those are protesters outside of a law enforcement checkpoint on the streets of Washington, D.C. making their feelings, their outrage, frankly, over Donald Trump's takeover of their city loud and clear. As the federal law enforcement and National Guard presence continues to actually grow, protesters took to the streets last night in Washington, D.C. to express anger over Trump's attempt to weaponize the federal government and take control of the nation's capital. Last night, officers from Customs and Border Patrol, including ICE agents, set up a checkpoint in the heart of the city, stopping dozens of cars and detaining at least two people. The New York Times captured footage of Washington, D.C. residents protesting and trying to protect their neighbors from ICE.

[Basil Smichel]

Turn left.

[Nicole Wallace]

Turn left.

[MSNBC Announcer]

ICE right here.

[Nicole Wallace]

ICE is right here. Now, although D.C. mayor Muriel Bowser has condemned Donald Trump's incursion, today the D.C. chief of Police announced that they will be working with ice, notifying them when they encounter someone who is undocumented at a traffic stop. This elaborate show of force by Donald Trump does seem to be an attempt to consolidate power while he can as Americans grow increasingly disillusioned with his presidency. A new poll by the Economist finds that Trump's support among Republicans dropped nine points since he took office in January. Joining our conversation is writer and editor for Protect Democracy, Amanda Carpenter. Alex and Basil are still here. Amanda, your thoughts on what's happening on the streets of Washington, D.C. well, you.

[Amanda Carpenter]

See those protesters out in the streets because they understand there is no real emergency in the District of Columbia. Sure, there's a crime problem. There's no emergency. Just like people in California understand that there's no invasion that Americans need to be afraid of. What this is about and why this is demonstrated so clearly by what Donald Trump and his agents just did outside Newsom's press conference is that this is about assembling troops and having them at the ready to not only advance Trump's agenda But to suppress criticism, to intimidate perceived political opposition, to harass and intimidate people. That is where this is going. And I think that's what the protesters understand. You know, this is why Trump and his allies talk about, we're not going to just do this in California. We're not going to just do this in the District of Columbia. This is coming to blue cities near you because those are places where Donald Trump is intent on shutting down critics. You hear him talk about having, you know, a strike force at the ready to put down protests that haven't even happened yet. So this is where this is going. He has assembled the troops. Will they come to a city near you, and what are you going to do about it?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Amanda, it seems to also be a planned and a public barrier to entry to protest at all. I mean, it seems to be scratching at this itch that Rachel just does a masterful job pointing out. I mean, people have been in the streets protesting Donald Trump since the day after the election in deep red parts of the country. Americans do not like what he is doing. And I wonder how you square this idea. I mean, you and I are former Republicans. Crime is a gut issue. When people feel afraid, they take irrational place, they tolerate irrational things. I wonder how you untangle or how you would advise Democrats to talk about, to sort of disentangle what is a real issue, people's fear of crime and what is not real, the need for the military to be on the streets of any American city.

[Amanda Carpenter]

Yeah, absolutely. Listen, there are cities that have problems with crime. There are a million things you can do short of sending in the troops to police Americans like this. You know, the conservatives I used to run with used to be afraid of big government. I saw bigger government happen last night in the streets of the District of Columbia when there were troops screening people for no reason. What were these troops doing? We were told they're going to stop violent crime. They were looking at people to have seatbelts with your seatbelts on, with your taillight out. That's not violent crime. Right. Everyone is sold under the idea that we have to stop the violent criminals. That is not what these troops are doing. They're strolling around the national monuments and the streets of Georgetown to have a big show of force. It's just like the military parade that Donald Trump wanted because he wants a show of force. And really take a good, hard look at what just happened in California. There is no reason for ICE agents to be outside Gavin Newsom's press conference. He's the governor of California. He has his own personal security. He's safe. He doesn't need ICE age. They don't need ICE agents to protect them. He's going to be okay. This is about political intimidation and harassment. And this is the biggest government overreach I've certainly seen since I've come to Washington. And I challenge to find any conservative, find a bigger one in the streets happening right now than a Democrat did.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that's a really, really, really important point. I have to sneak in a break. I want to bring Alex and Basil back into this conversation. On the other side, we also have a response from ICE. We'll tell you about it next.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Saturday, October 11th. From New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle and more. Visit f msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.

[Basil Smichel]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening?

[Nicole Wallace]

Baltimore Mayor Brandon Scott.

[Basil Smichel]

When you think about the history of Baltimore and gun violence, this issue has.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Really been the issue that has made.

[Basil Smichel]

Or broken the careers of mayor after mayor after mayor and really been the centerpiece for all discussion around this city for more than 50 years, longer than I've been alive. That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now. And follow.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Amanda, Alex and Basil. Let's put the picture back up. Alex. We just got a statement from Gregory Bovino. He's the chief patrol agent of El Centro Border Patrol Sector and the commander of operation at large here in Los Angeles. He says this, quote, Customs and Border Protection is conducting roving patrol duties in downtown Los Angeles. This is a location where we have been conducting roving duties over two months. We did make an apprehension. Our presence is to make Los Angeles a safer community. So do you know what, quote, this location is, Alex? Governor Newsom gave a speech at the Japanese American National Museum. I don't even know what to say. I mean, World War II is calling and it wants its moral disgrace back. What?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm, I guess I'm surprised that they're pretending to have, like, an actual strategy beyond just we go places where there might be brown people or Democrats and try and scare them because that's what the execution looks a lot like. I Mean, I'm with Amanda on this. This is of a piece with investigating your political adversaries and filing lawsuits against media companies. The name of the game here is intimidate, intimidate, intimidate, and chill. Chill the environment. Like woe be to any other person that steps out and says, we can't, we don't support this. This is undemocratic, and we're going to fight back or we're going to tell the truth or we're going to be critical. I mean, this is what fascism. This is what authoritarianism looks like. I mean, let's not mistake what's happening here. The other piece of this, Nicole, is I am reminded of a moment that happened eight years ago Monday, I believe, when a crowd of white nationalists came to Charlottesville, Virginia, and a neo Nazi mowed down and killed a peaceful protester named Heather Heyer. And the president of the United States at the time, Donald Trump, said, there are good people on both sides. He didn't call in the National Guard. He didn't call in federal troops. He didn't say, it's a disgrace what's happening in one of America's cities. But when a Doge employee gets carjacked, then it's the federal seizure of blue cities, potentially all across the country. I mean, let's not forget the asymmetry of the response when one woman died and a Doge employee gets carjacked. That's not to minimize what happened to the man who calls himself Big Balls. But it is to look at the way this president reacts to what happens to one group of people and what happens to another group of people.

[Nicole Wallace]

Basil, I am sort of gobsmacked by the audacity of the response. Right. To not even pretend to give some birth to a speech from the governor of the largest state that's being delivered at the Japanese American National Museum to even. To not carve that out from immigration raids out of deference to our country's story and our country's history. And I'm embarrassed that I can still be shocked by them. I really am. Like, it's been 10 fricking years. I should not be able to be gobsmacked on live television by their audacity, But I still am. And so here we are. Your thoughts?

[Basil Smichel]

I think it was. Did you read in that statement, did I hear you correctly, that they said, we've been here for two months and made an arrest?

[Nicole Wallace]

They made one today. They made one today. I think they made one today.

[Basil Smichel]

That's everything you need to know. Yeah, that's everything you need to know. What is the. What is the point? You've been there two months and you've made an arrest.

[Nicole Wallace]

I don't think that's what they said. I, I think they meant that they've been doing regular raids there. Let me read it, because I don't want to misquote ice. Customs and Border Protection is conducting roving patrol duties in downtown Los Angeles. This is a location where we have been conducting roving duties for over two months. We did make an apprehension. Our presence is to make Los Angeles a safer community. So you have a good point. I don't know if that's what they mean, but that is what they said.

[Basil Smichel]

Well, that is what they said and what that suggests to me, as I've said all along, this is theater. And what Amanda and Alex have been saying, this is theater. This is anticipatory obedience. We're going to put these folks on the ground. We're going to find a way to make sure that you now obey and comply. And if you're in the shadows, we will go after you. But others have said that this is an extraordinary, extraordinarily expensive political theater only meant to scare and particularly scare black and brown people, because this show of support, those kinds of press releases did not come out during or in the days after January 6th. And we know it didn't. You know, that wasn't done recently because he pardoned so many people from that moment and from that day. So this is meant to show his supporters that we're going to go after all of these miscreants, all of these people that don't follow the rules, all of these people that break the laws. But the reality is that you're going in is where you could have had good policy solve the problems that you're focused on. But as you said before, Republicans don't do that. Right. So now Democrats have to find a way to just actually push back and fight back. But the truth is. But. But the reality is this is about the most dangerous kind of political theater that I could imagine, where somebody could get hurt and in worse, people could get killed. Because you want to make a point, a racialized point.

[Nicole Wallace]

I couldn't love talking to the three of you any more than I do. Thank you so much. Amanda Carpenter, Alex Wagner, Basil Smichel, thank you so much for spending this hour with us. When we come back, another big piece of evidence that Donald Trump's economic policies are backfiring for the economy and for the American people. We'll explain next.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Headline number is whoppingly big. Oh my goodness. Up 9. 10 of a percent, up 9.

[Basil Smichel]

10.

[MSNBC Announcer]

And if you strip out food and energy, guess What? It's still up nine.

[Basil Smichel]

Ten.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Boy.

[Nicole Wallace]

That was CNBC's Rick Santelli delivering some unexpected and unwelcome news to the markets today. The prices for wholesalers rose at the fastest pace in three years this July, a jump that we have not seen since June of 2022. And it's a warning sign that consumers may be about to pay the price for Donald Trump's tariffs at the grocery store. Axios took a look deeper into the producer price index and found that a nearly 40% increase in prices for fresh and dry vegetables from June to July was one of the major drivers of the higher than expected report today. The biggest month over month increase for fresh vegetables since March of 2022. And the rate cut that Donald Trump has been seeking and hoping for from Fed Chair Jerome Powell. Well, that now seems very unlikely. We'll stay on top of all of this for you. Up next for us, the push for transparency and answers. One of Jeffrey Epstein's earliest accusers and her attorney will be our guest after a short break, an important conversation you won't want to miss. Don't go anywhere.