← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"A child play with fireworks"
00:43:33
Nicolle Wallace on a series of rambling texts, social media posts, and unhinged rants from President Donald Trump.
Loading summary
Transcript54 lines
- [00:00]
LifeLock Advertiser
The New Year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft leading to lost funds. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals with LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com Specialoffer terms apply as President.
- [00:32]
MSNow Host
Continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [00:48]
Juana Summers
The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.
- [00:52]
MSNow Host
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at ms.dot now Project 47.
- [01:07]
Juana Summers
Hi there everyone. It's four o'clock in New York. It is a genuine inflection point today, right now, for America and Americans and the world. It is upon us, and it is more akin to watching a small child play with fireworks than any serious examination of policy choices being made by a serious or rational actor. Today, the world is madly translating and trying to decipher a series of rambling texts, social media posts and unhinged rants delivered from the podium of the West Wing of the White House to try to figure out what exactly it is that Donald Trump is threatening. A series of late night posts up the ante in what the Washington Post describes as the gravest transatlantic crisis in generations. Donald Trump once again posting texts from world leaders, including this one, French President Emmanuel Macron, asking for a meeting and saying what we're all thinking at this point, quote, I do not understand what you were doing in Greenland, end quote. Their posts contained fake images of Donald Trump planting a flag on Greenland. Another an Oval Office meeting in which a map shows that both Canada and and Greenland have been annexed by the United States of America. All that happened on top of yesterday's stunning text message to Norway's prime minister in which Donald Trump made a lot of things clear, but one of them was that he wanted Greenland because he wasn't given the Nobel Peace Prize. And Applebaum in the Atlantic writes that the message to Norway's leader reveals that, quote, donald Trump now genuinely lives in a different reality, one in which neither grammar nor history nor the normal rules of human interaction now affect him. Also, he really is maniacally, unhealthily obsessive about the Nobel Prize. Donald Trump seeming To prove her point in remarks to reporters this afternoon, making the dubious claim that somehow he saved millions of lives. Watch.
- [03:11]
MSNow Host
You know, should have gotten the Nobel Prize for each war. But I don't say that I saved millions and millions of people. And don't let anyone tell you that Norway doesn't control the shots, okay? It's in Norway. Norway controls the shots. They'll say we have nothing to do with it. It's a joke. They've lost such prestige.
- [03:34]
Juana Summers
I feel like someone should have the job, though, of telling him that Greenland is a territory of Denmark which isn't Norway at all. When asked about the French president not joining his so called abortive peace, his pay to play members only club of world with a fee of Austin powers sounding numbers, $1 billion for permanent membership. Trump threatened to slap a 200% tariff on French wine. This manufactured voluntary chaos, the constant threat of on again, off again tariffs, of military action, of possibly sparking a financial crisis as the United States suddenly looks insane and like a really risky place to invest or bet on long term, all of it begs for someone, anyone, to say out loud what everyone's thinking, including Emmanuel Macron. And for someone, anyone to decide enough is enough. Time to rein him in. Especially as more and more Americans experience Donald Trump's rollercoaster of manufactured chaos. The more they're on it, the more they want to get off. A batch of devastating poll numbers for Donald Trump show that just 37% of Americans approve of how he's handling the job as president. 71% of all Americans say the country feels out of control. That's not a number or a question I've ever even seen asked before. As for the possibility of an invasion of Greenland, 9% of Americans think that's a good idea. So that's the backdrop against which California's Governor Gavin Newsom is today urging Europeans to stand up to that wildly unpopular President Donald Trump. Watch.
- [05:23]
Governor Gavin Newsom
Yeah, it's time to buck up. It's time to get serious and stop being complicit. It's time to stand tall and firm, have a backbone. You know, it's, I've seen this in the United States, the supine Congress playing both sides. You know, saying one thing on a text or a tweet and another publicly. It's time to have principle. It's time to stand tall, tall and strong. It's a time to stand united. You make that determination. I don't make that determination. When you say standing collectively, just. I can't take this complicity. People rolling over. I should have brought a bunch of knee pads for all the world leaders. I mean, handing out crowns and handing, I mean, this is pathetic. Nobel prizes that are being given away. I mean, it's just pathetic. And I hope people understand how pathetic they look on the world stage. I mean, at least from an American perspective. Perspective, it's embarrassing. Europeans think this is diplomacy, and this will ultimately work. This is diplomacy with Donald Trump. He's a T. Rex. You mate with him or he devours you.
- [06:31]
Juana Summers
You mate with him or he devours you. I'm waiting for someone to put that on a sweater. The country and the world grappling with a T. Rex. An erratic and seemingly unstable president is where we start today. Atlantic staff writer Ann Applebaum joins us. A new season of her timely podcast Autocracy in America is out right now. International affairs analyst Michael McFaul is here. He's a former U.S. ambassador to Russia and executive director of Protect Democracy. Ian Bassin is with us as well. Ann Applebaum, I start with you. Your tweets and your posts, and the things you pull out and underscore are the things I'm sort of grabbing onto to try to understand how the world sees us right now. But just tell us what you're hearing and reporting.
- [07:15]
Anne Applebaum
I think the story of this today's madness really starts a couple of days ago with the text that Donald Trump sent to the prime minister of Norway, which not only went to that prime minister, but was then sent out by the White House to ambassadors in Washington and maybe elsewhere. The text blamed Norway for not giving him the Nobel Peace Prize. It said now that he hadn't won the prize, he wasn't going to be so interested in peace anymore. And he implied that this was a justification to invade Greenland. The same text had grammatical errors, historical errors, things he said about Greenland that just weren't true. You know, he said something about there being no written documents proving Danish sovereignty. Actually, Denmark and the US have signed treaties over Greenland. Others have as well. And it really, I think it caught people's attention, even though many other crazy things have happened. But this was a. It was so strange and it was so off the wall, and it was so clearly detached from reality, from historic reality, from, you know, from normal grammar, from normal behavior, that I think people are finally beginning to see that there's something very wrong. I mean, Trump is living in his own world. I'm not going to make a medical diagnosis. I don't think there's any point in doing that at this point. But he has his Own world, his own rules. He's not practicing normal diplomacy. He's not seeing the world in a normal way. And that is, of course, since he controls the US Military, very dangerous. And could there be a violent invasion of Greenland? Yes, there could.
- [08:57]
Juana Summers
I am reminded, Ian Bassin, of sort of the parable of kidnapped victims who are there for days, weeks, months, years. And then one of them gets up and opens the door and it's unlocked. Like, this could end today. This could end before I get off the air. You know, I mean, like Congress could decide to do, not to confront him, but just to do their job. The thing that the Constitution ascribes and describes as their function. The courts could be respected. The business leaders who were like, making bricks for Donald Trump and doing all sorts of other pathetic, sick stuff could wake up and realize that his brand is in the toilet. 9% of Americans support his war in Greenland, 37% think things are going well. It's a toxic brand. They wouldn't have anything to do with any celebrity or person anywhere on the planet with those approval ratings and the whole permission structure for him to act as Ann describes. And again, we don't know why he acts this way, but let's just say it, he acts like a bleeping lunatic. That could end before I get off the air at 6:00pm Eastern.
- [10:03]
MSNow Host
I mean, we belabor this point, but the founders anticipated a threat like this of someone who was tyrant in the presidency. And the protection, as you know, was that there was not one person who got to make these decisions, that we had three supposedly co equal branches of government that were supposed to serve as checks on one another. And I thought, Governor Newsom, you know, I appreciate that he's trying to buck up the European leaders, but, you know, he spared one line there for members of Congress and the courts here. And they're the ones who need the knee pads, right? I mean, this is a situation, as you note, that could end tomorrow if the Republicans in Congress actually did with their offices and their votes what we all know they are saying in private. And look, the liberal order has had massive success and some challenges. The neoliberal order certainly had its successes. And it may be that there are things about both that need some form of renovation and updating. But you don't renovate your kitchen by destroying and blowing up the entire house. And if Congress and the American people and the courts saw that the person they brought in to do some renovations was actually destroying the whole place just as if it were your house, you would step in and do something about it, you know, so this isn't America first. This is America alone. This is going to end up as America broke, and it could end tomorrow.
- [11:27]
Juana Summers
I mean, Ambassador McFaul, Ian hits on something that's really important. The most biting personal digs at Donald Trump. Things like, quote, cultural heroine, quote, America's Hitler, quote, the worst person I've ever met, quote, the most damaged person I've ever been around, quote, fascistic to the core. Those come from, in order. J.D. vance, Mitch McConnell, General John Kelly, Generals Mattis Milley and Kelly agreeing, and Kelly adding that he, quote, meets the technical definition of a dictator. The evidence and the eyewitness testimony all comes from deep inside Trump's first White House, Trump's Republican Party, and the congressional enablers of Donald Trump. So the world is seeing something that Mitch McConnell and John Kelly and J.D. vance saw years and years before any of us covering him did. What does the world make of what they're seeing?
- [12:32]
Michael McFaul
Well, the world is just horrified by us. It's outrageous. I just was speaking with a former senior government official in Europe just 30 minutes ago, and he's just shocked. He cannot believe this is the America. This is not the America he grew up with. But we need to take that shock. We need to take that and translate it into action and fight it bit by bit. The idea to annex Greenland, there are many other things Trump has done, policies we've talked about him for years, that I radically disagree with. But this is the worst, most, stupidest, dumbest idea ever by any president. As far as I teach a course on American foreign policy here at Stanford. I start 250 years ago. I can't think of anything more idiotic and antithetical to our security and prosperity than this idea. So on this one, we all those people you just named need to step up again and you just put the numbers up. Trump is so out of touch with American society with this idea that I think there's room, even if you're just self interested, even if you're just Vice President Vance and Secretary Rubio, you both want to be president. Signing up for this idiotic idea is going to make that a lot less likely. And I hope those. Because it has to be the Republicans, Democrats, there's no Democrat that agrees with this horrible idea. They have to make that clear as a way to prevent what I think would be a catastrophic mistake by the United States of America.
- [14:06]
Juana Summers
Could you also explain. Well, let me quote Trump trying to explain it first, and then I'll have you give me the reality. So this is in an interview with the New York Times. Journalist says, why is ownership important here? Trump says, because that's what I feel is psychologically needed for success. I think that ownership gives you a thing that you can't do. Whether you're talking about a lease or a treaty. Ownership gives you things and elements you can't get from just signing a document that you can have. A base. Journalist says, psychologically important to you or the United States. Trump Psychologically important for me. Now, maybe another president would feel differently, but so far I've been right about everything. Journalist, you wouldn't. And you would use military force to get that? Trump. I didn't say that. You said that. Journalist I'm asking you, would you? Trump. Yeah, I wouldn't comment on that. I don't think it'll be necessary. Trump doesn't own a house. He lives at a club. Why is owning Greenland a thing?
- [15:00]
Michael McFaul
Ambassador so that interview, I'm glad you played that one, because there's been lots of things, but that one was especially revealing because it shows. First, this has nothing to do with the security of the United States of America. We all know that. We have bases all over the world. The Fifth Fleet is based in Bahrain to provide deterrence in the Middle East. Did we annex Bahrain?
- [15:23]
Jason Hauser
No.
- [15:23]
Michael McFaul
The seven fleets in Japan, we didn't have to annex it. The Missile Dome. We have missile defense systems in Poland or Romania without annexing territory there. This is not about security. This is about Trump personally. And that's what was so revealing about that. This is a vanity project for Trump. It's just like his stupid ballroom that tragically, 20 years from now, people are going to go to the White House and they're going to say, this is the ballroom that Trump built. And those are probably facts on the ground that won't be reversed. And that's what he wants here. He wants people to say he was the president that expanded the United States, even call it Trump land. And that is what it's all about. It's about him personally and nothing to do what is good for the American people. And he himself revealed it very candidly in that interview.
- [16:13]
Juana Summers
Anne Applebaum, how do European leaders think this ends?
- [16:18]
Anne Applebaum
Well, I mean, they hope that it ends with Congress or the courts or the military or the American people restraining the American president. But they're planning for alternatives, and they are now scouting out what would be the real military possibilities. What would happen if US troops landed in Greenland? What would day one look like? What would day two look like? They're looking at different kinds of retaliation. I mean, and there's a kind of ladder. You know, there's a, there are trade sanctions, there are tariffs, then there, there's a kind of nuclear option which is that European countries and European companies could begin to sell U.S. stocks and U.S. reserves and U.S. treasury bonds, you know, creating a financial crisis. I mean, of course that would hurt them, but it would hurt us as well. And that's the kind of conversation that they're having. In other words, how do we respond to this? You know, what, what's option A? What' option B? And how do we prevent it from happening? I mean, also, just to underline what Mike just said, the thing that's confusing to Europeans, and this started, I was in Denmark a year ago and I heard this first. There is that Trump has never been able to articulate to anybody why exactly he needs Greenland. He can't give people military reasons. There's been a US Base there for many years. There used to be more US Bases. The US Actually cut the number of bases that it's had there because there wasn't a military threat to Greenland. There isn't a threat from Russia and China that can't be dealt with under current treaties. There is a real Russian threat to Ukraine. Right now, Russia is bombarding Ukraine. There's supposed to be another major missile strike this evening. And yet Trump isn't worried about that. So the security argument is bizarre. The economic argument makes no sense. None of it makes sense. And so for Europeans, this is a kind of Kafkaesque moment where they have to prepare for a possible military conflict with their closest and oldest ally, the one to whom they looked up for so many years while not really understanding why.
- [18:27]
Juana Summers
Yeah, I mean, what Ann just said is amazing that they're preparing for a possible military conflict with the United States. News flash. So is Canada. I'll bring you that reporting in Bloomberg and much, much more on this topic in a second. No one goes anywhere. Also ahead for us, as ICE continues barreling into communities and homes, new reporting sheds light on an agency originally designed to protect Americans from far away threats, from threats outside of our borders, outside of our country, and now appears exclusively focused on fighting Donald Trump's so called enemies from within and the quote, worst of the worst. Later in the broadcast, how the US Military is preparing for Donald Trump's next moves attacking American allies and where they would ever find the legal architecture to, to do that. We'll have all those stories and much more when Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news these days it's the skills that count. Udemy can help you get those in demand. Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game Developer. We've got you covered. AWS Certified Cloud Practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.
- [19:55]
MSNow Host
Start your day with the MSNow Daily Newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up at Ms.
- [20:11]
Jason Hauser
Here in the Peace center of this continent, we do believe that we need more growth, we need more stability in this world. But we do prefer respect to bullies.
- [20:23]
Michael McFaul
We do prefer science to plotism, and.
- [20:26]
Jason Hauser
We do prefer rule of law to brutality. You're welcome in Europe and you are.
- [20:30]
Michael McFaul
More than welcome to Frank.
- [20:40]
Juana Summers
Ian I just want to level set that none of this is normal, right? I worked for a president who put in place policies wildly unpopular in Europe and was met with protests. But his relationships with foreign leaders were never to the point where any of those leaders would go out publicly and call him a bully, as McConnell obviously did. And Canada. It's very hard to have a fight with Canada as Americans as America. Canada is not just our best and closest neighbor, they're a very kind and generous neighbor. And Canada is preparing for war with America. Let me read you Bloomberg's reporting on that quote. Canada's military has modeled how it would respond to an American invasion after Donald Trump publicly talked about the country as a potential 51st state, as according to a report in the Globe and Mail, the northern nation's defense would include tactics similar to those used in Afghanistan against Russian and later US Led forces, according to the Globe, which cited government officials it didn't name. The officials stressed they consider a US Invasion to be highly unlikely. The Canadian military envisions small groups of irregular fighters or armed civilians carrying out ambushes, sabotage or drone warfare, according to the Globe. Those tactics could include so called hit and run attacks involving improvised explosive devices similar to those used by the Taliban in Afghanistan against the United States of America and allied forces, including Canada. Again, I used the word insane too many times in the last 24 minutes and 30 seconds, but this is just an insane state of affairs, you know?
- [22:16]
MSNow Host
After the horrific tragedy of World War I, the historian Barbara Tuchman famously wrote a book called the Guns of August about all of the fateful decisions that led to Europe falling into this incredible conflagration. And they were dumb decisions, they were unstrategic decisions, and they were orders of magnitude more logical than what's going on here. We don't have the guns of August today. We have the madman of January. You know, Gerard Baker, no lefty in the Wall Street Journal wrote a piece the other day talking about an envisioned future after the US Wins a quote, unquote battle for Greenland, in which in the future, the US has lost its global financial dominance, it has lost its technological advantage, it has lost its domestic prosp disparity, and it is left clinging to its only remaining allies around the world, El Salvador, Qatar, and Senegal. It's a world that nobody should want. And frankly, it's a world that nobody does want. Americans don't want this. And that's the incredible irony, right, is that after Donald Trump famously is credited by political pundits of having won an election with a campaign ad that said, kamala is for they them, Donald Trump is for you. What voters are finding out is that Donald Trump has always been only for him. That is who he has always been. He doesn't care about anyone else, either in the United States or around the world. And we are about to live in the consequences of a world driven solely by what would potentially burnish Donald Trump's fractured and broken ego.
- [23:45]
Juana Summers
Ian, I want to pick up on two things you said. Just to not let them go, sort of to not let them become normal things that people hear on cable news, right? I mean, we, not you, but we can become sort of background noise. And I mean, I think you're making a point that wars have commenced. Deadly, tragic world wars have commenced over events, frankly, less aggressive and more logical than what you're seeing. Is that your point?
- [24:15]
MSNow Host
I think we, unfortunately, are too removed most people living in the United States from the horrors of what it is like to live through an actual violent conflict and a war. There is nothing worse that humanity could experience or live through. And you go back to the 19th century where Trump has his picture of Andrew Jackson on the wall, and American presidents like James Polk made arguments for American expansionism and initiated wars with Mexico and elsewhere. And I'm not going to credit anything that James Polk did, but the argument, one of the arguments he made was that America, flawed as it was, offered a republican form of government and liberty, in contrast to most of the world living under monarchy and dictatorship. Now, that was obviously deeply flawed and wrong. We were a country that had slave at the time. But it was at least arguably, some noble idea of bringing freedom to greater territory. Donald Trump doesn't even have that. And even if he supported what Polk did, it was unbelievably bloody and violent and disastrous. And hundreds of thousands of people losing their lives and leading, including to the American Civil War. Who wants to live through that? We should all pray that neither we, our generation, nor our children's generation, nor our grandchildren's generation have to suffer in the death and violence and suffering. Suffering that Donald Trump's recklessness is threatening to bring down on all of us.
- [25:37]
Juana Summers
You know, Ambassador McFaul, it's a real, I think, disservice to the level of discourse in the country when people say that folks aren't paying attention. I think people pay attention to everything all three of you say. I think you really. And that's why you're here today. You make people stop and think. And I think people are paying enough attention that 91% of Americans oppose taking over Greenland. So the notion that nothing matters and the protests. He'll do what he wants, maybe, but everything matters. And everything that I know you and Ann and Ian say has people sort of stop in their tracks and think. And in this moment, where you've got Trump championing something that he says is, quote, for me, psychologically, never even heard him talk about his own psychology. So there's that. That 91% of all Americans oppose and every world leader opposes. Where would you assess the country if you were advising someone in terms of how to deal with us? What would you tell them to do? Who would you tell them to talk to?
- [26:49]
Michael McFaul
Well, Juana, I would just repeat that data that you just described, because sometimes people conflate President Trump with the United States, and on this issue, they're completely different. Anecdotally, you know, we talked about my new book a couple months ago. I've been to 20 cities now, almost all in red states. Whenever I mention how stupid this idea is, I get raucous applause. I was just in Florida. I was just in Trumpland five days ago. Raucous applause. So the president is isolated. And if we collectively push back, I think we can avoid that world, that just horrible world that you guys were just talking about. We don't have to go there. And it's also not forever. Governor Newsom, where I live, out here in California. Okay. I would use some different metaphors than he just used. I'm not gonna go there. But, yes, we all need to stand strong. Well, presidential candidates should start standing strong. Right now and pledge that if I'm elected president, I'm going to give back Greenland. This doesn't have to be forever. That's something that they could do as well. I actually am cautiously optimistic that this does not lead to the end of America. But this is as close as we've come. And empires overreach, emperors overreach. This is an emperor trying to overreach. We need to stop him now before we get to that horrific world that you two were just talking about.
- [28:15]
Juana Summers
I mean, Ann, it's amazing how dramatically far the Overton window has moved, right where we're debating whether it may or may not mean the end of America. In Ukraine, though, they don't have that kind of time. Right. In three years, the next president is going to run on restoring the Rose Garden to Jackie Kennedy's original plan, restoring the East Wing to what was there, returning Greenland. If Donald Trump does take it, giving back the plane given to him by Qatar, taking out political prosecutions, I mean, you know, if we unwind all the damage that's been done to the rule of law, the politicization of the military, the desecration of our own national monuments and symbols of the state, it doesn't help anyone. On the other end of a Russian missile strike tonight in Ukraine, what is the thinking in Ukraine and among our allies for what happens when Trump takes America off the stage as an ally?
- [29:13]
Anne Applebaum
So, first of all, it's important to remember that the United States barely supports Ukraine anymore. We do offer them some important intelligence support, and we do have ammunition for air defense that they need. There are a few things that we give them. But Ukraine is now almost entirely supported by Europe. And the vast majority of the drones in Ukraine that are used, and this is a drone war in Ukraine, are made now in Ukraine by Ukrainians. I was even taken through a Ukrainian factory a couple months ago where the woman who was showing me around was very proud to say, we have no American parts here and we have no Chinese parts. In other words, they're looking for a way to be self sufficient. The question is whether that's going to be enough, whether that will get them through the next year or the next two years. Because while all this has been happening, while we're all talking about Greenland, while we're focused on the tragedy in Minnesota, the Ukrainian peace negotiations have gone nowhere. Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner have produced nothing. They're America's negotiators, not diplomats, but they're the ones who are doing it. There has been no effort to put pressure on Putin to stop fighting. On the contrary, the Greenland incident and the Greenland talk encourage him to keep going. So in effect, we're encouraging and we're helping him by offering the example of an America which is also expansionist and also destructive and also disregards borders. And of course, by distracting the alliance. I mean, the Danes are actually a really important component of Greenland's defense and we are hampering that effort. We are helping to keep that war going.
- [30:54]
Juana Summers
It's a tragic, tragic moment. I appreciate all of your candor and clarity. And Applebaum, Ambassador Michael McFall and Ian Bassin, thank you so much for starting us off today. After the break, Donald Trump's immigration crackdown, while wildly unpopular with the American people, also continues with another horrifying incident caught on camera. Federal law enforcement agents dragged a barely dressed United States citizen from his own home, forcing him out in sub freezing temperatures with hardly any clothes on. We'll talk about that and look at how the Department of Homeland Security has turned into this. Don't go anywhere.
- [31:34]
LifeLock Advertiser
The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft leading to lost funds. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your new year's goals. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com SpecialOffer terms apply.
- [32:04]
Juana Summers
The US military deployed on the streets of America, whole communities targeted for removal. And when accountability finally came knocking, the burn order to cover it all up.
- [32:14]
MSNow Host
Rachel Maddow presents Burn All Episodes available now.
- [32:21]
Juana Summers
Donald Trump is threatening to escalate what is happening in Minnesota right now, even as armed and masked ICE officers are growing increasingly violent and aggressive toward U.S. citizens. Watch what happened on Sunday. A naturalized U.S. citizen was forcibly removed from his house, his home in St. Paul, Minnesota, at gunpoint and without a warrant. You can see ICE agents dragging him out into the sub freezing temperatures. He was wearing shorts and slippers and appeared to put a blanket over his shoulder. He says he was returned to his house later that day without any explanation or any apology. Meanwhile, ABC News reports that attorneys say DHS is denying detainees, including at least one US Citizen, their constitutional rights to due process and visits with their own legal counsel. This is all a starkly different picture than when the Department of Homeland Security was created. It was formed in the wake of the September 11th terrorist attacks. It was created for the purpose of securing the protection of the homeland of America against the threat of Al Qaeda and international terrorism that at the time permeated through American public life. The New York Times, Hamid Ali Aziz writes this about the new agency's new direction, quote, more than two decades later, some Democratic leaders say the department's role appears to have strayed far from its original purpose, turning its tools of enforcement away from external threats and toward President Trump's domestic critics. They say enforcement has looked more like an occupation. I want to bring in the aforementioned journalist, Hamid Al Gaziz. He covers the Department of Homeland Security and immigration issues for the New York Times. Also joining us, former top ICE and DHS official Jason Hauser is here. Take us through your reporting. You widen the lens in a way that goes back further than I think most people do, not just to how the last couple presidents have dealt with the issue of immigration, but to what the actual agency was designed to do, the kinds of people it originally recruited in the mission it used to have, as opposed to what it's doing now, which, in the words of a lot of people in Minneapolis and Minnesota is terrorized local residents, legal residents, US Citizens, and protesters.
- [34:43]
Hamid Ali Aziz
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's remarkable to see mayors of major cities describing an agency, a federal agency, as an occupying force. As the mayor of Chicago said he felt like DHS was the personal police force of President Trump. Again, this is an agency that began with the idea with a stated mission to increase collaboration and cooperation with locals, with local law enforcement, with local leaders. And right now, you have some of the biggest cities who are at odds with this agency. And we're really only a year in. It's unclear what's next.
- [35:26]
Juana Summers
Hamed, you've got Joe Rogan comparing them to the Gestapo. I mean, it's not just Democratic mayors. Right. I mean, the tactics are being criticized by anyone who watches the video of what's happening.
- [35:37]
Hamid Ali Aziz
Yeah, I mean, this is a critical moment for ice. This is an agency right now that, you know, during Democratic administrations doesn't get as much attention. You know, during the Biden administration, they were not necessarily out on the streets as much, obviously. And now this is an agency that. That even more so than during Trump, Trump won. Every single action they are taking is under a microscope. And right now, the polling indicates that, you know, more and more people are critical of some of the work that ICE is doing. So this is perhaps the, you know, the most pivotal moment in the agency's history.
- [36:15]
Juana Summers
Right now, Jason, 52% of all Americans say that ICE is making communities less safe. Only 31% say it's making communities more safe. It's terrible for the victims of their excesses. It's also really bad for ice.
- [36:33]
Jason Hauser
Yeah, you know, let's think about this. Let's just even set aside the politics for a moment and how the politicization is seeping into our federal law enforcement. But let's just take that example that you shared, the rest of that U.S. citizen, Minneapolis. There was dozens of federal law enforcement, both ice, Homeland Security Investigations, FBI, dea, atf in that operation. The hours, the equipment, the resources, the focus. Are we more safe from that gentleman being targeted in that manner? Additionally, in law enforcement, we don't. Again, we talk about outcomes. What national security and public safety threat is not being prioritized because there's flashbangs and door knockers going into that gentleman's home? We have to ask ourselves that. Additionally, this administration is asking for all of sort of state and local law enforcement who reprioritize away from national security public safety threats and focus on these sort of mass arrest operations. We have to start asking ourselves, is our public safety being deprioritized? Quite frankly, these are the same individuals that are carrying out this, that we're that were raising all the massive concerns in 2020 during the George Floyd riots, defund the police movement. What we see here is a refocusing, a sort of deprioritization of law enforcement on national security and public safety threats. And I must admit, Nicole, this is just the beginning. Over the next five or six months, with the resources that the one big beautiful bill is provided, DHS are now coming to sort of operationalization. We're going to see more detention. We're going to see warehouses brought online. We're going to see a doubling of agents that are less trained. And what we have to do is we need the public, as you're saying with polling is we're beginning to see that we have to turn our law enforcement back on what keeps our communities safe. But I do fear that we're far.
- [38:36]
Juana Summers
Away from that and moving in the wrong direction, as you point out. All right, no one's going anywhere. I have to sneak in a quick break. We'll all be right back. We're back with Hamed and Jason Hamed. I want to read this. From your reporting, you write that the recent conflicts with local officials have alarmed some former leaders of dhs. When it was created, the agency was not just supposed to connect different parts of the federal government, but also expand its outreach to local and State, I mean, here in New York, that looked like messages, like, if you see something, say something. And DHS was a federal agency that was supposed to sync up not just with local elected officials, but with communities and try to keep the country safe from those kinds of threats. What does it mean for sort of the DNA of the institution that is now viewed by overwhelming numbers of Americans? 52% said says ice makes it less safe. How has that sort of changed the fabric of the agency itself?
- [39:39]
Hamid Ali Aziz
Yeah, I think that this agency now is and for many years is defined by immigration. But especially now you have these DHS agents, you know, one example, Homeland Security investigations agents, who typically working on criminal cases, criminal investigations, these agents have been thrust more into immigration work. So you see the agency, you know, moving and shifting its work toward more immigration enforcement. And that's how it's being defined now. And that's where the breakdown is happening with these local cities and these local law enforcement leaders in Los Angeles. The police chief there told me that there were times where they would get reports of kidnappings in their city and be concerned and send a bunch of police officers to a scene. And ultimately it was a federal agents making an immigration arrest. So there's a lot of confusion with some of the police departments across this country. What is DHS doing exactly?
- [40:42]
Juana Summers
I mean, Jason, you're talking about public safety and law enforcement. I mean, the public doesn't view ICE that way. And this is seeped into culture. Again, you've got Joe Rogan, I think, one of the biggest podcasters in the country, comparing I ICE to the Gestapo. You got NBA games where they're shouting, get out of here. At the Minneapolis, at the Timberwolves game the day after Renee Nicole Goode was murdered. Her murder or her killing or shooting death is being lifted up by people like Bruce Springsteen. I mean, the climate feels unsustainable. Is there any sense that inside ICE that this is unsustainable?
- [41:24]
Jason Hauser
No, I, I must say I've talked to dozens, if not hundreds of of state, local law enforcement, as well as keep in touch, you know, all the time with my former colleagues, you know, as you say, is, you know, with great responsibility comes great trust. And Title 8 immigration enforcement authorities are extremely block broad. But I, from any officer, former current that I hear from, the sort of, sort of how this is being carried out, no one sees as sort of in the public safety interest. There has been systemic failures across multiple administrations, across the fact that we've never come to terms with our immigration system. And our immigration system is what the Department of Homeland Security is to carry out and we're starting to see the outcomes of that. That in our community is starting to personally affect not just migrants but our communities because of whether it's political opportunism or whether it's sort of quota arrest targets, whether it's just sort of, sort of driving fear is sort of a deterrent to kind of stop individuals from some seeking asylum or coming to our country in our immigration system. But DHS and Department of Homeland Security, as Ahmed is reporting, was, was excellent. Is I used to see Moose was not built to oversee 14 million.
- [42:43]
Juana Summers
But can I ask you about the human immigration docket?
- [42:45]
Jason Hauser
Yeah.
- [42:45]
Juana Summers
I mean you talk about, you still know, the human beings inside. How does a human being grab a human being, an elderly gentleman and rip him out of his house in his underwear?
- [42:55]
Jason Hauser
I mean it's, it's, it's hard to watch and it. Is it right. Nicole, you're raising the exact right question is what is the tactics, what is the sort of direction, what is the command that's being given by the leadership both in the field level but also across from the White House down. But you have a situation here where in this instance dozens of officers are arresting a non U S citizen when in fact drugs are not down in this country. The, the cyber, the cyber traffickers, the human trafficking, the, the, the, the, those that target our children, as Hamed said, those are the individual, those are the sort of crimes that Homeland Security investigations, a part of ICE historically has went after. There's been a deprioritization of that. So when you have dozens of officers standing in the cold streets of Minneapolis arresting a US Citizen, what are they not doing? So we Americans are beginning to see, as the polling you showed, we're less safe. But to your fact, the sort of tactics are carried out to hit these quotas, I mean, there has been multiple reports showing that even that arrest counts towards the 3,000 arrests a day that the administration wants. I mean, how absurd. But that, that is the sort of, the hypocrisy and that you can, we can even reflect on. You know, I was in the Biden administration, I was in the President Obama's administration. We have to reflect and become more honest, more transparent and we have to build an immigration system that's going to work. And this is not working for our communities, it's not working for our economy and it's not now working for our national security and public safety. So all that, you know, we are where we are.
- [44:29]
Juana Summers
We are where we are. Jason Hauser. I appreciate you, Mohamed Ali Aziz. The reporting is extraordinary. Thank you for joining us to talk about it after the break. For us, a judge calls out Donald Trump's handpicked prosecutor for, quote, masquerading as a United States attorney. We'll bring you the latest in that standoff next. The insurance lawyer formerly known as U.S. attorney Lindsey Halligan had another brutal, terrible, very bad day in court today after a federal judge barred her from continuing to identify herself as a U.S. attorney in all legal matters. The Trump appointed judge condemned Halligan for continuing to use the title after a court ruled months ago that she had been appointed unlawfully. From his order today, quote, no matter all of her machinations, Ms. Halligan has no legal basis to represent to this court that she holds the position. In short, this charade of Ms. Halligan masquerading as the United States attorney for this district in federal defiance of binding court orders must come to an end. The judge also ripped Halligan's explanation for why she continued to use the title, saying her response, quote, contains a level of vitriol more appropriate for a cable news talk show. Some would say that's an insult to cable news talk shows. Coming up next, a Danish lawmaker with very strong words for Donald Trump warning him that Greenland is, quote, not for sale. We'll show it to you next.
- [46:04]
LifeLock Advertiser
The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft leading to lost funds. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals with LifeLock, save up to 40 your first year. Visit LifeLock.com SpecialOffer Terms apply.