“A clown show”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – “A clown show”

Date: September 17, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC

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Episode Overview

This episode of Deadline: White House dives deeply into the explosive and contentious House Judiciary Committee hearing featuring FBI Director Kash Patel. The focus is on the Trump administration’s handling—and apparent cover-up—of the Epstein sex trafficking files, with new scrutiny on Director Patel's evasiveness and confrontational demeanor. The discussion broadens to examine the implications for institutional trust, political violence, the politicization of law enforcement, and the erosion of democratic norms. Key legal and political minds join Nicolle Wallace to dissect it all, including Christy Greenberg (former Criminal Division deputy chief, SDNY), NYU Law Professor Melissa Murray, and Rick Stengel (former Undersecretary of State). Later, Congressman Dan Goldman joins for firsthand insights into Patel’s testimony and the committee’s attempts to get the truth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Kash Patel’s “Clown Show” Testimony

The central drama is the House hearing with FBI Director Kash Patel, who repeatedly dodges direct questions about the Epstein files and Trump's potential involvement.

• Repeated Evasions:

  • Kash Patel is grilled by lawmakers (notably Dan Goldman) regarding whether he informed the Attorney General that Trump’s name appeared in the Epstein files. Patel dodges with “alphabet jokes” and never gives a straight answer.

    “Who you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files? Yes or no?”
    Interviewer / Host [01:37]
    “Why don’t you try spelling it out?”
    Kash Patel [01:44]

• Deflection & Aggression:

  • Rather than answering, Patel suggests the committee focus on violent crime and accuses Democrats of protecting pedophiles—a clear attempt to deflect.

    “Why don’t you try serving your constituency by focusing on reducing violent crime ... and the number of pedophiles that are legally harbored in your sanctuary cities in California?”
    Kash Patel [01:55]

• Legal Jargon and Stonewalling:

  • Repeated references to protective orders and sealed witness statements, but as expert guests explain, these do not prevent the release of the critical Epstein interview reports.

    “...protective order would never govern what the FBI has in its own file ... the judge said ... you can produce the Epstein files, including those interview reports, you can produce all of that ... they don’t have a leg to stand on with respect to keeping some of this material secret.”
    Christy Greenberg [09:03–10:42]

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2. Political and Legal Analysis: The Depth of the Cover-Up

• Hypocrisy & Gaslighting:

  • Patel is called out for his reversal—from once demanding House Republicans “put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are” to now stonewalling on releasing those names himself.

    “Kash Patel is now in charge ... His answers are not only illogical, legally, they're totally unrelated to everything he ever said he believed House Republicans could do in the past.”
    Host [10:42–11:26]

• Performance for “an audience of one”:

  • Analysts note Patel’s bombastic style seems designed for Donald Trump’s approval rather than the MAGA base or the wider public.

    “Maybe it's for an audience of one ... but we're not talking about what he could do and why he hasn't done it, because we're so riveted by his absolutely bombastic demeanor.”
    Rick Stengel [12:47]

• New Revelations & Lack of Qualifications:

  • Patel’s ignorance of notorious white supremacist Dylann Roof, referenced by the committee to illustrate his unfitness for office.

    “Of all the things he has said yesterday and today, this was the single most disqualifying thing—that the head of the FBI didn't know who Dylann Roof was.”
    Melissa Murray [16:04]

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3. Impact on Law Enforcement & National Security

• Decimation of Expertise:

  • The mass firing of senior FBI officials with counterterrorism backgrounds is highlighted as weakening the agency and the country.

    “They’ve decimated the ability of the FBI to protect anyone from anything.”
    Host [21:08]

• Shift of FBI Priorities:

  • Shift away from domestic extremism to immigration enforcement under White House direction.

    “The priorities are shifting within the FBI to not focus on domestic terrorism and instead shift the focus to immigration enforcement, which historically has never been part of the mission of the FBI.”
    Christy Greenberg [19:21]

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4. Congressman Dan Goldman’s Firsthand Account ([24:26–32:53])

• Coordination and Cover-Up:

  • Congressman Goldman accuses the FBI, DOJ, and House Republicans of coordinating to conceal information in the Epstein files that could implicate Trump.

    “There’s a coordinated effort from the White House, the Department of Justice and House Republicans to conceal and cover up the materials in the Epstein files that would have Donald Trump’s name, likeness or image.”
    Rep. Dan Goldman [24:41]

• Witness Statements & Incomplete Disclosures:

  • Goldman underscores that key witness statements and interviews with Epstein’s victims are being withheld despite no legal barrier.

    “Those are the files ... not included in the list of documents that the Republicans confirmed ... are the full Epstein files, when in reality they’re not.”
    Rep. Dan Goldman [26:48]

• Direct Accusation of Perjury:

  • Goldman says Patel “lied under oath” regarding Epstein’s trafficking activity.

    “He said that ... did Epstein traffic women to anyone else? And he said no, flat out. No.”
    Rep. Dan Goldman [28:09]

• Manipulation of Ghislaine Maxwell’s Prison Transfer:

  • Goldman argues the decision to move Maxwell to a less secure facility was a coordinated effort, not a Bureau of Prisons decision alone, to keep her silent.

    “The Bureau of Prisons ... ultimately did execute that request. But it is absurd to say they made that decision alone.”
    Rep. Dan Goldman [29:26]

• Signature Forgery and Legal Maneuvering:

  • Goldman mocks Trump’s claim that the birthday book signature is forged, noting Trump hasn’t sued over it and that comparable “investigations” are used to stall or distract.

    “If it was truly a forgery ... he would of course file a lawsuit and he didn’t.”
    Rep. Dan Goldman [31:10]

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5. Political Violence & The Loss of Democratic Norms

• Reactions to Charlie Kirk’s Murder:

  • Recent uptick in political violence, highlighted by the killing of conservative activist Charlie Kirk, leads to calls for civil dialogue and rejection of vengeance.

• President Obama and Governor Shapiro’s Words:

  • Obama and Shapiro are contrasted against the current White House for their calls for unity and for upholding the First Amendment.

    “We have to be able to disagree and have sometimes really contentious debates without resort to violence.”
    Barack Obama [36:24]

• Expert Analysis on Free Speech:

  • The panel dissects Attorney General Pam Bondi’s call to “go after hate speech”—pointing out that hate speech is protected under the First Amendment and that suppressing speech is antithetical to American values.

    “The Attorney General ... did not know that hate speech is protected whether we like it or not.”
    Melissa Murray [38:05]

• Deterioration of the Rule of Law:

  • Dangerous implications for equitable justice when top law enforcement officials pre-judge cases in the press, potentially undermining prosecutions by poisoning jury pools.

    “All she had to say was, ‘Hey, we have this person in custody ...’ But she felt the need to take it further ... this kind of rhetoric is the way you can inadvertently lose a slam dunk case.”
    Christy Greenberg [44:52]

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6. The Epstein Files, Accountability & The Bigger Picture

• Moms As Key to Accountability:
  • Advocacy by Jess Michaels that mothers, regardless of politics, are the group most likely to demand justice for Epstein’s victims.

    “I think moms. Moms understand this. Moms are hurting with us ... this is a nonpartisan issue.”
    Jess Michaels [46:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |------------|---------------------|----------------------------------------| | 01:44 | Kash Patel | “Why don’t you try spelling it out?” | | 03:30 | Cong. Dan Goldman | “I want to understand what the court order prevents you from releasing witness statements ...” | | 09:03 | Christy Greenberg | “[T]hey don’t have a leg to stand on” (re: withholding FBI’s Epstein files). | | 12:47 | Rick Stengel | “This is a kind of clown show that we are all riveted by.” | | 14:58 | Christy Greenberg | “Dylann Roof, who followed white supremacist propaganda, murdered nine black parishioners ... Do you deny this?” | | 16:04 | Melissa Murray | “This was the single most disqualifying thing—that the head of the FBI didn’t know who Dylann Roof was.” | | 19:21 | Christy Greenberg | “...the leadership in those counterterrorism roles, are the ones being fired ... priorities are shifting ... to immigration enforcement ... never been part of the mission of the FBI.” | | 24:41 | Rep. Dan Goldman | “There’s a coordinated effort ... to conceal and cover up the materials that are in the Epstein files that would have Donald Trump’s name, likeness, or image.” | | 28:09 | Rep. Dan Goldman | “He said ... did Epstein traffic women to anyone else? And he said no, flat out. No.” | | 31:10 | Rep. Dan Goldman | “If it was truly a forgery... he would of course file a lawsuit and he didn’t.” | | 36:24 | Barack Obama | “We’re at an inflection point ... we ... have to fight for our democracy ... to disagree ... without resort to violence.” | | 38:05 | Melissa Murray | “There’s no greater contrast between demeanor and temperament than Kash Patel in front of the Senate and Barack Obama.” | | 46:12 | Jess Michaels | “If you were to ask me what demographic can make the most difference? I think moms.” |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Kash Patel grilled on Epstein files: [01:13–04:50]
• Legal analysis: why hiding the files is bogus: [07:20–11:26]
• Patel’s demeanor and Trump “audience of one”: [11:26–13:38]
• Patel’s ignorance on Dylann Roof: [14:58–16:52]
• Firing of counterterror experts; FBI’s priorities: [19:21–21:08]
• Congressman Dan Goldman interview: [24:26–32:53]
• Discussion of political violence, Charlie Kirk, Obama’s comments: [34:28–44:44]
• Moms and the Epstein justice movement: [46:12–46:29]

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Conclusion

This episode uses a raw, clarifying lens to scrutinize the Trump administration’s efforts to contain the Epstein scandal’s political fallout, documenting how top law enforcement officials' evasions undermine public trust and security. With legal, historical, and contemporary analysis, the guests expose the disconnect between performative politics and public service, making a compelling case for transparency and adherence to democratic principles in the face of ongoing political turbulence.

Transcript

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office? Or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx? Nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Rippa now. Wherever you get your podcasts, when's the.

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[Interviewer / Host]

Did you ever tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files?

[Kash Patel]

The Attorney General and I have had numerous discussions about the entirety of the Epstein files and the reviews conducted by our team.

[Interviewer / Host]

Did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name Epstein files and we.

[Kash Patel]

Have released where President Trump. It's a simple question. During many conversations that the Attorney General and I have had on the matter of Epstein, we have reviewed the question is simple.

[Interviewer / Host]

Who you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files? Yes or no?

[Kash Patel]

Why don't you try spelling it out?

[Interviewer / Host]

Yes or no?

[Kash Patel]

Director the Alphabet.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yes or no?

[Kash Patel]

No. ABC Director.

[US Cellular / Stephen A. Smith (advertisement voices)]

It sounds like you don't want to tell us.

[Interviewer / Host]

Did you tell the Attorney General that Donald Trump's name was in the Epstein files?

[Kash Patel]

Why don't you try serving your constituency by focusing on reducing violent crime in this country and the number of pedophiles that are legally harbored in your sanctuary cities in California?

[News Anchor / Host]

Hi again, everybody. It's Bible clerk New York. Ask yourself this question. 81% of Americans think Donald Trump is hiding something when it comes to the Epstein files. Did Kash Patel help or hurt? Yes or no? Let you Decide. Another meltdown today from FBI Director Kash Patel before the House Judiciary Committee. This time he comes in the midst of his ranting and raving. But what you didn't hear from Patel was a clear answer to a very direct question about what his role has been in a scandal that now looms large not just over the administration and the justice department and the FBI, but over Donald Trump, with again, 81% of all Americans believing that he's covering something up. Team Trump's shambolic and evasive and gaslighty handling of the criminal case involving Trump's one time friend, the deceased sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. That evasiveness was just part and parcel though, of Patel's. We'll call it a performance, the answers he gave when he was pressed on this issue that is so important to Trump's coalition. The Epstein case, it was a night and day contrast from when he was a podcaster, a media personality who yelled at House Republicans to, quote, put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are, end quote. Here's what he told Congressman Dan Goldman.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

I want to understand what the court order prevents you from releasing witness statements that the FBI took.

[Kash Patel]

You should know that as a real prosecutor, when the court hand downs a protective order and a motion to seal the material is sealed, that your testimony.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Here is that all of those witness statements are under a court order, a protective order.

[Kash Patel]

We are providing everything we can legally provide.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Now, that's not my question. My question is why are those witness statements that are not grand jury testimony, that if they were under a protective order, are no longer under a protective order? Why are they not being released?

[Kash Patel]

How are they not under protective?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Why are you not going to the court like you did for the grand jury testimony to unseal those records?

[Kash Patel]

DOJ did go to the court.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

No, not on those records. Why aren't you going? You just went on grand jury. Time of the gentleman has expired. You are hiding the Epstein files after.

[Kash Patel]

The jail is expired.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

You are part of the COVID up.

[News Anchor / Host]

We will have a chance to talk to Carson Goldman later this hour about that exchange and other revelations from today. At one point, Cash Patel said he would indulge in Donald Trump's unsubstantiated claims that his letter and Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book is somehow fake.

[Kash Patel]

You've seen the picture of the woman's body with the writing and the President's signature. The president says that's not his.

[Christy Greenberg]

Okay.

[Kash Patel]

President says it's not his. The Republican colleagues say it's not his. The administration say it's not his. Will you be opening up an investigation into the Epstein estate for putting out a fake document with the president's signature linking him to the world's largest pedophile ring? We'd be opening that investigation into that. On what basis? On what basis? They literally put out a fake document, according to the president, with a fake signature. It's a forgery of the president of the United States. Signature. That's the basis. Sure, I'll do it.

[News Anchor / Host]

Sure, I'll do that. What is it again? As a reminder, that fake signature was part of a book for Jeffrey Epstein's 50th birthday, meaning that Ghislaine Maxwell compiled it in the year 2003, I think Donald Trump was a Democrat that year. It was put together by Ghislaine Maxwell. It was handed over to the House Oversight Committee by the Epstein estate because of a subpoena. At the end of the hearing, Democrats made a push to issue multiple subpoenas for bank records for the head of the Bureau of Prisons for answers about Ghislaine Maxwell's transfer, because Kash Patel said yesterday that's who made that decision. And to Deputy Director of the FBI Dan Bongino for more files, including witness testimony. But all of those motions are opposed by Republicans. A day of explosive testimony about Donald Trump's FBI and the Epstein case is where we start this hour with former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst, host of a new YouTube show, Courtside, Christy Greenberg's back. Also back with us, NYU law professor Melissa Murray, who clerked for Justice Sonia Sotomayor while serving at the U.S. court of Appeals, and former Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public affairs during, during the Obama administration. MSNBC political analyst Rick Stengel. If you had told me, I don't know, three years ago, that I would be introducing such accomplished people with such lovely resumes to talk about Kash Patel's antics about dead child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. I would have said I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't. That's like, that's, that's, that's, that's not what we're going to be talking about, but here we all are, so let's do it. Let me show you what Republican Congressman Massie had to say about Patel's excuses today as just a baseline.

[Kash Patel]

You also said somewhere in the hearing and here today that the problem is that the case files are constrained by limited search warrants from 2006 to 2007, and that the non prosecution agreement hamstrung future investigations. Those constraints only apply to Southern District of Florida.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

They do not apply to Southern District of New York.

[Kash Patel]

The location of the 2019 sex traffic.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Indictment, which produced many things, including a series of FD302 documents, according to victims who cooperated with the FBI in that investigation.

[Kash Patel]

These documents in FBI possession, your possession.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Detail at least 20 men.

[Kash Patel]

We know these people exist in the.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

FBI files, the files that you control.

[Kash Patel]

I don't know exactly who they are.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

But the FBI does.

[News Anchor / Host]

I don't know who they are, but you do. Is what he was saying. Just in terms of understanding how much Patel is keeping secret. We got it there from a Republican.

[Christy Greenberg]

Absolutely. And what I found so interesting was that exchange with Congressman Goldman where he's trying to understand, like, what is the legal authority. You're saying, I'm not producing the Epstein files because I legally can't. He's saying, tell me about these court orders that you say can't, in particular, with respect to the interview reports, which is what is really going to be the basis of any sex trafficking investigation. What did the witnesses say? What did the victims say? That's what we'd want to see first. What protects those? And he mentioned a protective order, which, you know, for the legal nerd in me, I'm looking like protective order is. It just governs discovery. It's about what the defendant really can share. And those interview reports are never produced in discovery, so. And the protective order would never govern what the FBI has in its own file. That's its own documents. And also, even if you thought for some reason that the protective order stopped you, the protective order says at the end of it, it can be modified by an order of the court at any time, and the parties can agree. And with respect to other things, Jeffrey Epstein's estate, with respect to the grand jury materials, for example, they've taken no position on whether or not these things are revealed. So it's. He really put the lie to this. Like, it wasn't clear to me at points during this hearing whether or not Kash Patel really doesn't know the answer. Like, he really doesn't know the law or if he's playing dumb, kind of the same result. It's a clown show. But. But I think the result of this hearing is that you have to then say, you're wrong on the law. You can produce those documents. And why don't you go back to the judge? I mean, Judge Berman issued a court order where he said, I'm not producing the grand jury materials. And part of the reason why is because you can produce the Epstein files, including those interview reports, you can produce all of that, and that is going to better inform the public than this tiny snippet of hearsay testimony that's protected by secrecy rules. So all of this is legal jargon, but ultimately what it comes down to is they don't have a leg to stand on with respect to keeping some of this material secret. And the more that they blame the judges and try to blame Democrats and blame everybody else and say that the law is preventing them from doing it, it's just not true. So there should be a follow up from this hearing to say go back to the judge, clarify the position. If the judge says you can produce it, which is what we understand it to be, then you need to turn over those files.

[News Anchor / Host]

What's interesting to me as the non lawyer is that Kash Patel said, and I always want to quote him accurately, house Republicans, put on your big boy pants and tell us who the pedophiles are. So Kash Patel's operating theory was that members of Congress and his Red House Republicans had the ability to find out who the pedophiles were, ostensibly from then the previous administration's Department of Justice. Kash Patel is now in charge of that department at the Department of Justice. And his answers are not only illogical, legally, they're totally unrelated to everything he ever said he believed House Republicans could do in the past.

[Rick Stengel]

No, I think that's totally right. You know, the world is sort of turned upside down. It's a great time for podcasters. They don't want to denigrate. I'm a podcaster myself. Who knows what could happen. But the world is turned upside down. He's in a position of authority. He is actually the thing about which he once complained. And you know what's interesting is his demeanor. I mean, he's never been a decorous witness before any of these chambers, but he was incredibly combative and antagonistic during this. And a lot of the reporting about both the hearing yesterday in the Senate and the hearing today before the House really emphasized and sort of talked about how combative he was, how disrespectful he was to both the senators and the representatives. Very little discussion about the substance. And the fact, as Christy points out, he's the one who could release everything. And he just won't answer those questions about why he hasn't. And that actually could be by design. Like, I mean, this is a kind of clown show that we are all riveted by. And maybe it's for an audience of one, it's probably for an audience of many, with the benefit of one audience member particularly. But we're not talking about what he could do and why he hasn't done it, because we're so riveted by his absolutely bombastic demeanor during this time. Well, we are, but not everyone else is.

[News Anchor / Host]

I take your point, but let's. I mean, we're talking about Kash Patel, who. I said yesterday makes me miss Matt Gaetz and wish he'd survived. But the. I don't. The only thing I would challenge you on is it is an audience of one, because the base wants the records. It's not for anyone but Trump, because Trump's voters. The base of the Republican. The jam Republicans are in is that one, isn't a hoax, the victims are very real, as we've discussed, and two, the conspiracy theories around it festered on the right. And it became a mainstream news story when Elon Musk tweeted, donald Trump is in the Epstein files. And the next story was that his people told him, yes, indeed, you were in there many, many, many times. So the audience of one is the truest thing about what he's doing. This is not for the MAGA base.

[Rick Stengel]

No, it's not for the MAGA base. I do think it's too deflect to a certain degree. I mean, like, he's facing a lot of blowback, both from within the White House and the broader base about the way he has performed as head of the FBI. This is not what people wanted. It's probably not what his boss wanted either. And this reminds me a lot of Brett Kavanaugh's second performance before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Not the first one where he appeared to be slightly contrite, even tearful, but the one where he was really bombastic and challenging. I mean, that was to show, ostensibly, Donald Trump that he could stand up, and he was the kind of nominee that Donald Trump wanted. This, I think, is the same kind of thing. Like, I am a fighter. I am fighting for you, for whatever it is that you want. And I'm deflecting a lot away from the real questions here, which is, who's in charge? What do they have, and why haven't they disclosed it as they said they would?

[News Anchor / Host]

What's interesting about the substance of it is that they make no progress on the fact pattern. But every time they're up there deflecting or doing whatever they are, they do reveal new, deeply disturbing things on the other substantive part, which is their abject lack of experience for the jobs they hold. Here he is acknowledging that he has no idea who Dylann Roof is.

[Melissa Murray]

Oh, yeah.

[Christy Greenberg]

Dylann Roof, who followed white supremacist propaganda, murdered nine black parishioners in Charleston in 2015. Do you deny this?

[Kash Patel]

I'm sorry, Dylan Ruth Roof.

[Melissa Murray]

Roof.

[Kash Patel]

Can you give me some more information?

[Christy Greenberg]

You're head of the FBI. You probably know this. If you don't know, that's fine.

[News Anchor / Host]

I can.

[Kash Patel]

You can give me a reminder. I've got a lot in front of me.

[Christy Greenberg]

It was national news.

[Melissa Murray]

It's.

[News Anchor / Host]

Let me say something else about this, though. Like, it was. It was the kind of national news that you could be forgiven for believing actually united everybody. It was one of the most incredible moments of President Obama's presidency. He stood there in silence to hear a pin drop. And I came, sang Amazing Grace. I mean, it was. I felt at the time that it was a national moment that transcended people politics. And I guess what Kash Patel proved today is that it wasn't what I thought it was.

[Melissa Murray]

Of all the things that he has said yesterday and today, this was the single most disqualifying thing that the head of the FBI didn't know who Dylann Roof was. A white extremist murderer who killed eight black parishioners in Charleston. That was gigantic news. And what has been in the news lately, how much white extension extremism there is that are promoting violence, you'd think that maybe he had read something in the last few days that would remind him of this. I just think that's appalling. And to your point, that these jobs, in Trump's estimation, are all performative. You know, you live by the performance, you die by the performance. But these jobs, director of the FBI, you actually have to know something. You have to know law, you have to know facts. And when you don't, you have performance. And that's all that he has.

[Kash Patel]

And.

[Melissa Murray]

And it's just very, very, very disturbing. And by the way, speaking of President Obama, what he said, I believe it.

[News Anchor / Host]

Was yesterday in Erie Pea.

[Melissa Murray]

And he referenced the Dylann Roof murder and said, you know what, I could have used this for partisan purposes, but I didn't. I used it to try to unite the country. And to your point, I really do think, and I don't want to be naive about American presidents, but I don't think there's ever been a president in American history who has less desire to unite the public than Donald Trump or even has a sense of that's. What the job is.

[News Anchor / Host]

And I don't think we have to guess. He told us so. He's told us that he hasn't. And he's announced he ran on a war within and attacking the enemies within. So in his defense, he believes he disclosed that as a candidate and then he seemed to double and triple down on it over the last seven days when he said some unbelievable things about the American left. I want to, though, follow up on your point about what an FBI director should know, because this might explain why he doesn't know. This is from the Guardian. U.S. justice Department removes Study Finding Far Right Extremists Commit Far More violence quote, the U.S. justice Department has scrubbed a study from its website concluding that far right extremists have killed far more Americans than any other domestic terrorist group. The Vanish study opened with, quote, since 1990, far right extremists have committed far more ideologically motivated homicides than far left or radical Islamic extremists, including 227 events that took more than 520 lives. In this same period, far left extremists committed to 42 ideologically motivated attacks that took 78 lives. And where this report once appeared, the Justice Department wrote it is, quote, reviewing its websites and materials in accordance with recent executive orders. I would add that Republican Christopher Wray, handpicked by Republican President Donald Trump after defending Republican Chris Christie, testified in September of 2020 that the largest threat to the homeland was domestic violent extremism. And within that bucket of threats, the largest bucket was the word he used, was right wing racially motivated crimes.

[Christy Greenberg]

And what's really disturbing is that the people within the FBI, the leadership in those counterterrorism roles, are the ones being fired. And so the people with the institutional knowledge to know what those threats are and be able to react to them and be proactive even in tracking these groups, they are the people who are being downsized. And the priorities are shifting within the FBI to not focus on domestic terrorism and instead shift the focus to immigration enforcement, which historically has never been part of the mission of the FBI. Yes. Could the FBI, could that be part of an FBI case?

[Rick Stengel]

Sure.

[Christy Greenberg]

But that's not really what they do. There are other federal agencies that handle immigration enforcement enforcement. And so it's such a reconfiguration of how the FBI is structured, what its mission is, what its people do. And I think you are seeing it not just with them taking down the material, but with the personnel as well.

[News Anchor / Host]

You know, we've been covering last week we covered the lawsuit a 67 page lawsuit from three fired senior FBI officials. Yesterday the New York Times had the first firsthand accounts from two more fired agents who are not part of that lawsuit of the three leaders. And I don't know anything about their politics, you usually don't about an FBI agent. But their resumes include among all of them decades of combat military service, decades of counterterror swat, you know, the toughest and the hardest jobs at the FBI. And for again, all of the signaling of being attracted to masculine, you know, protective virtues. They've decimated the ability of the FBI to protect anyone from anything.

[Rick Stengel]

Not just protect anyone from anything, but like they've actually weakened the entire country. I mean, the fact that someone has decades of counterterrorism experience is relevant as part of the FBI. When you were working in concert with the CIA, for example, to stop the next terrorist, terrorist attack on the homeland. I mean, the fact that we're losing this kind of expertise, that's important. I mean, these are the things that keep us safe. We don't hear about them, we don't know who they are. We're not supposed to. The fact that we haven't had a big episode means that they've been doing their jobs. And so the question is, what are we vulnerable to? I mean, we talked about in the wake of 9 11, why were we so vulnerable on 9 11? And one of the things that came out is that, you know, we were vulnerable at least in part because there was such a long period in terms of when the election happened and when it was actually decided for George W. Bush that there wasn't a proper transition and the kind of alignment that typically happens between national security interests, the FBI, all of those things didn't happen. And it made us weaker, it made us more vulnerable. This is the same kind of thing. Things are not lining up.

[News Anchor / Host]

Such a good point.

[Rick Stengel]

These points of alignment are falling apart and that will make us more vulnerable.

[News Anchor / Host]

Vulnerable. Everyone sticks around. When we come back, Congressman Dan Goldman will be here. We just showed you what he did at the office today. It included grilling Cash Patel later in the broadcast. We also have previewed these comments from President Barack Obama. He is speaking out, saying that the country may be at an inflection point when it comes to the danger of political violence. We'll show you what he had to say. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Congressman Dan Goldman]

You want sports?

[Interviewer / Host]

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[Interviewer / Host]

I'm afraid. Director Patel, you've given us reason to believe you've used the powers of the FBI to serve Donald Trump and his agenda of partisan retribution. You've broken your promise not to do that. You've betrayed Jeffrey Epstein's victims and survivors. You've turned your back on the career law enforcement officers, the FBI, and as a result, you've left all of us less, less safe than before.

[News Anchor / Host]

Joining our coverage, Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman of New York. He is a member of the House Judiciary Committee. Congressman, take us inside. What you're doing left with in terms of your theory of what Cash Patel is involved in covering up?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Well, I think ranking member Raskin really covered all of it there. The FBI is now just a political arm of Donald Trump. And as that political arm and personal arm of Donald Trump, Kash Patel has gone from the biggest advocate for releasing all of the Epstein files, including the names of any collaborators or anyone who received women from Jeffrey Epstein, to now coming up with the most convoluted, absurd explanations for why the FBI can't turn over those materials. So right now he is truly at the center of the COVID up. It is very clear that there's a coordinated effort from the White House, House, the Department of justice and House Republicans to conceal and cover up the materials that are in the Epstein files that would have Donald Trump's name, likeness or image.

[News Anchor / Host]

Congressman, your Republican colleague, Congressman Massie talked about the FBI having in its possession documents that detail at least 20 men. Do you know who those 20 men are?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

I do not know who they are. That's part of the reason why we need to release the Epstein files, as Kash Patel so vigorously argued for so many years. But the point that Congressman Massie made, which is exactly right, is that yesterday Kash Patel testified that Jeffrey Epstein trafficked no one to any other people and Congressman Massie listed off a group of 20. I mean, we certainly know about Prince Andrew. We don't know whether one is Donald Trump, but we have credible reporting that he is in the Epstein files, which is why the about face has happened. But the notion he essentially lied under oath yesterday and he continues to lie about the Epstein files to continue and perpetuate the COVID up, we should know what the FBI knows about those people that Congressman Massie talked about. We should see the witness interviews of the victims that the FBI unquestionably had to have done and is not protected by grand jury secrecy, is not protected by any court order, could be turned over by Kash Patel today. And those are the files that they are concealing. Those are the files that are not included in the list of documents that the Republicans confirmed and affirmed when they passed a bill two weeks ago. And that's the difference between what they're trying to do is to gaslight the American people, that those documents in the Oversight Committee that they requested are the full Epstein files, when in reality they're not. And that's why the Mass Econo discharge petition is so important, because it does include all of those recordings, all of those witness statements, and so many much other information, including who was the one who tipped the FBI first about Jeffrey Epstein's conduct in 2004.

[News Anchor / Host]

I just want to be really precise and make sure I understand and I'm keeping up with everything you absorbed from this hearing. You said he lied under oath yesterday, which is a crime. What is this specific lie that he told?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Well, he said that in a response to Senator Kennedy from Louisiana who said, I think the question was, I don't have the exact numbers, but did Jeffrey Epstein traffic women to anyone else? And he said no, flat out, no. And so, you know, Congressman Massey listed a number of suspected individuals. We know based on Virginia Giuffre's testimony under oath about Prince Andrew, who ultimately settled the case. And certainly there are reports of many more. There are survivors out there who have reached out. I Understand, to talk to the FBI. Kash Patel said today that he has not heard from them. That is not true. And they would have information about other individuals who Jeffrey Epstein's sex ring involved.

[News Anchor / Host]

He also testified yesterday that the Bureau of Prisons made the decision to move Ghislaine Maxwell from a not super secure prison, but to a much less secure prison, more like a camp, as has been described in reporting about that. Do you believe that is the case, that the Bureau of Prisons made that decision?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Well, let's break this down. The Bureau of Prisons is a section of the Department of Justice. Todd Blanche is the Deputy Attorney General. He's the number two person in the Department of Justice. If Todd Blanche or anyone under him asks the Bureau of Prisons to move Ghislaine Maxwell from Florida to a camp, the Bureau of Prisons will ultimately have to do it and ultimately did execute that request. But it is absurd to say that they made that decision alone. Of course they did not. They took an order from above. And the reason why they did that was to keep Ghislaine Maxwell quiet, to make sure that she continued to lie, as she blatantly did in her any information or statements that she makes. And it is to keep her in their back pockets so that she doesn't incriminate Donald Trump or anyone else.

[News Anchor / Host]

Let me ask you one more question. I've done some of my own homework trying to understand the manosphere. I've listened to a lot of these podcasts where they furthered the conspiracy theories around Jeffrey Epstein. And in that world, if Maureen Comey, the lead sex crimes prosecutor out of sdny, is fired the same day that the Wall Street Journal calls Caroline Levitt, the White House press secretary, to get a comment on a birthday book that Donald Trump is now claiming is fake. But that Kash Patel, who's very eager to open criminal investigations into any and all enemies that Donald Trump testified today under oath to not opening any investigations about, what would those dots, what thoughts on a line, say to you?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Well, let's, let's get even before we have a criminal investigation of something that would have occurred, you know, in 2002 or three. How about the fact that Donald Trump is the most litigious person on earth? He is filing lawsuits right, left and center. New York Times, cnn, every media organization, you name it. Why hasn't Donald Trump, if that is, is actually a forgery, filed a lawsuit against the Epstein estate, which was the, the entity that turned over the document? We know he knows how to do it. If it was truly a forgery, as he claims then he would of course file a lawsuit and he didn't. But I was happy to see that Cash Patel said that he would open an investigation into forgery because that is what Donald Trump claims. It's of course absurd. Anyone who has vision can see that that is his signature when you compare it to any other signatures with just his first name. But let's call a spade a spade here. Let's put him to the test. And it's just yet another example of the gaslighting and cover up because Donald Trump wants to conceal what's in the Epstein files. And for years the far right, that manosphere you're talking about how had all these conspiracy theories about what was in the Epstein files, they wanted them all out. Well, you know what? The conspiracy theories were bogus. And it's important that it comes out not just to expose the perpetrators, which is important, of course, but also to expose the lie of this massive conspiracy theory. Just like all the other conspiracy theories that come from the far right are bald faced lies.

[News Anchor / Host]

Congressman Dan Goleman, thank you for taking time to talk to us today. It's great to talk to you.

[Melissa Murray]

Thank you.

[News Anchor / Host]

After the break for US President Barack Obama reminding all of us what a president should sound like, what is normal in the wake of a horrific murder like that of Charlie Kirk last week. That's next.

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It's Stephen A. Smith here.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

You want sports?

[Interviewer / Host]

SiriusXM's got it all.

[US Cellular / Stephen A. Smith (advertisement voices)]

Every game, every team, all season long. Debates, rants, hot takes and no filter whatsoever. Trust and believe. You don't want to miss what I have to say this week on the Stephen A. Smith show, only on SiriusXM.

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[News Anchor / Host]

In the wake of last week's murder of conservative activist Charlie Kirk, we've heard from a lot of elected political leaders in this country, past and present, on the recent uptick in political violence across our country. Pennsylvania's Governor Josh Shapiro is one of them. He's no stranger to political violence himself. In April, April, a man firebombed his house while he and his family were asleep. A trooper knocked on their door, got them out safely, and fortunately, nobody was hurt or injured in that attack. Governor Shapiro spoke out about this moment in our nation's politics at the Eradicate Hate Global Summit. Listen to that.

[Interviewer / Host]

Unfortunately, some from the dark corners of the Internet all the way to the Oval Office want to cherry pick which instances of political violence they want to condemn. Listen. Doing that only further divides us, and it makes it harder to heal. Violence is never the answer. And we cannot allow violence to be used as a pretext for more violence. We must reject the rhetoric of vengeance and instead focus, as you are today, on the work of healing censorship, using the long arm of government to silence people, to silence businesses and nonprofits and restrict their right to free speech. Well, that will not solve this problem. Prosecuting constitutionally protected speech will only further erode our freedoms and deepen the mistrust that is un American.

[News Anchor / Host]

President Barack Obama also addressed today's political moment at a Fireside Chat last night in Erie, Pennsylvania.

[Interviewer / Host]

We're at an inflection point in the sense that we. We always have to fight for our democracy, and we have to fight for those values that have made this country the envy of the world. What happened to Charlie Kirk was horrific and a tragedy. What happened, as you mentioned, to the state legislators in Minnesota, that is horrific. It is a tragedy, and there are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The central premise of our democratic system is that we have to be able to disagree and have sometimes really contentious debates without resort to violence.

[Melissa Murray]

And.

[Interviewer / Host]

When it happens to somebody, even if you think they're quote, unquote, on the other side of the argument, that's a threat to all of us, and we have to be clear and forthright in condemning it.

[News Anchor / Host]

We're back with Christy, Melissa, and Rick. I mean, Rick, Those comments became. I mean, it's always news when former President Obama speaks, in part because he chooses his moments and his words so deliberately, but also because it stands in contrast to what the current occupant of the White House said.

[Melissa Murray]

The current occupant, Kash Patel. You talked about Kash Patel's demeanor. There's no greater contrast between demeanor and temperament than Kash Patel in front of the Senate and Barack Obama. This part, demeanor, presentation, bringing people together, those are all part of what the job of president is to do. And every other president has basically done that again, except for Donald Trump, who tries to use everything for partisan purposes. They, both the governor and President Obama talked about the First Amendment and what has also been so dispiriting. And you can. You've seen the Pam Bondi interview where she said, we're going to go after hate speech. The Attorney General of the United States did not know that hate speech is protected whether we like it or not. You know, Justice Holmes said, the First Amendment is not for the thought that we love and revere. It's for the thought that we hate. That went all the way to New York Times versus Sullivan. You have the Attorney General who doesn't understand that, and you have the President of the United States who doesn't understand that. Who really, his understanding of the First Amendment is free speech is for me. But if you're saying something that I don't like, you shouldn't have free speech. That really is his full understanding of the First Amendment.

[News Anchor / Host]

Charlie Kirk actually did understand this.

[Melissa Murray]

He did. He was a free speech absolutist.

[News Anchor / Host]

He tweeted this last year, quote, hate speech does not exist legally in America. There's ugly speech, there's gross speech, there's evil speech, and all of it is protected by the First Amendment. Keep America free.

[Rick Stengel]

That's exactly right. I mean, it's the reason why you would have the ACLU defending Nazis marching in Skokie, Illinois, like it's a free speech matter. What's really interesting about hearing Attorney General Pamela Joe Bondi talk about the criminalization of hate speech and suppressing free speech more generally is that ordinarily we think of this wing of the Republican Party as, again, being free speech absolutists. These are the ones who are complaining about cancel culture. Like, people can't say what they want. We are being too politically correct. And now suddenly speech is problematic and those who are wielding speech are domestic terrorists. I mean, all of this is not necessarily objective. Like, the line between what you find to be hate speech and what is permissible speech seems entirely subjective and one that she might define for herself very differently from other people. But that's the kind of point, right. We live in a marketplace of ideas, and you may not like what other people say, but the idea is that we are part of a community in which these things have to be said. Like, there may be certain limits. You can't yell fire in a crowded theater. But we go pretty close to the line and it makes it messy, it makes it hard.

[News Anchor / Host]

But.

[Rick Stengel]

But that's the point of being free.

[News Anchor / Host]

I mean, the entire legal predicate for removing all content, moderation from something that everyone agrees is something that ails our society. Social media is around this question of free speech.

[Rick Stengel]

Well, this is the question that occupied the framers of the Constitution. I mean, they came out of the American Revolution with the entire colonial experience at their back, where the British crown had stopped them from printing certain things, from talking about certain topics, from saying certain things against the crown, against Parliament. They didn't want that. They wanted to protect what they called fundamental freedoms, and they enshrined them in the First Amendment. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, the freedom to petition the government for the redress of grievances, the freedom to assemble. All of the things that, interestingly, this administration seems to find deeply problematic. People gathering together to protest, people talking about this administration, people writing things about this administration. It's so peculiar for a group that consistently talks about healing to the Constitution. They don't seem to have any idea what precipitated and inspired the document or.

[News Anchor / Host]

Even what it said. Melissa, thank you for being here. Rick and Christy, stick around a little bit longer. We'll be back after a very short break. We'll show you more of what President Obama said last night, as promised. Here's more of President Obama last night in Erie, Penn.

[Interviewer / Host]

And so when I hear not just our current president, but his aides who have a history of calling political opponents vermin, enemies who need to be targeted, that speaks to a broader problem that we have right now and something that we're going to have to grapple with all of us, whether we're Democrats, Republicans, Independents. We have to recognize that on both sides, undoubtedly, there are people who are extremists and who say things that are contrary to what I believe are America's core values. But I will say that those extreme views were not in my White House. I wasn't embracing them.

[News Anchor / Host]

I'm hung up on. I wasn't embracing them. And when you look at where we started and these bigger questions about a director of the FBI who doesn't know who Dylann Roof is and what former FBI Director Christopher Wray said was, quote, by far the greatest threat to the homeland is domestic violent extremism. You just really worry that the people in charge of protecting us safe don't understand the threats.

[Christy Greenberg]

Absolutely. So one thing that struck me recently was Attorney General Pam Bondi gave an interview to ABC and she was asked who killed Charlie Kirk. And her response was, left wing radicals, they will be held accountable. This may be the first time in history that the attorney general has pointed the finger at someone that is not arrested, that some unknown people, rather than the person they have in custody who they are saying actually shot Charlie.

[News Anchor / Host]

Did that come up in trial? I mean, could the defense lawyer say the most powerful law enforcement official in the country said it was somebody not my client?

[Christy Greenberg]

Yes, yes, yes. And so all she had to say was, hey, we have this person in custody. He's the person that we believe committed this murder. We are investigating as to whether or not he worked with anyone else. And, you know, you don't say more. But she felt the need to take it further, even to the fact, and I don't know, maybe she does not know that this will affect his ability to get Tyler Robinson's ability to get a fair trial. This is the kind of thing that poisons a jury pool. Even though it seems like they have a very solid case against this individual, this kind of rhetoric is the way you can inadvertently lose a slam dunk case when you make it so that it's impossible for this guy to get a fair trial. So just the fact that she felt the need to insert that into the narrative shows that we have a very serious problem in how we talk about political violence in this country.

[News Anchor / Host]

I want to thank both of you for having all these difficult conversations with me, Rick Stengel, and Christy Greenberg. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. For all the fireworks on Capitol Hill today, we want to remind you of one of the people at the center of that important story, my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast, Jess Michaels. She believes moms are actually the key to achieving justice and healing and accountability for the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein. Watch.

[Rick Stengel]

I think that if you were to ask me, you know, what demographic do I think can make the most difference? I think moms. Moms. Moms understand this. Moms are hurting with us.

[News Anchor / Host]

I don't.

[Rick Stengel]

It doesn't matter what political party they are. This is a nonpartisan issue. When you're talking about child sex trafficking.

[News Anchor / Host]

And sexual assault, you can watch the complete interview with Jess Michaels. On YouTube, scan the QR code on your screen, and as always, it's available wherever you get your podcasts. We will be right back. Thank you so much for showing up and letting us into your homes again. We are grateful.

[Interviewer / Host]

Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host, Woody Harrelson. It's called where everybody knows your name and we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson, and Woody Harrelson sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts.