“A Conversation with Gov. Josh Shapiro”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode Title: "A Conversation with Gov. Josh Shapiro"
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Air Date: January 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the escalating tensions between states and the Trump administration over federal immigration enforcement, prompted by the controversial killings of citizens by ICE agents in Minnesota. Host Nicolle Wallace is joined by Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro, who speaks candidly about protecting state sovereignty, the rule of law, restoring trust in communities, and his own experiences with political violence. The conversation delves into the broader political climate, shifting forms of civic resistance, Shapiro’s insights from public service (detailed in his new book), and the role of individual and collective action in a time of democratic stress.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. States’ Rights vs. Federal Overreach

• Minnesota’s Stand: Minnesota AG Keith Ellison asserts the state's right to resist federal overreach after ICE shootings ([00:49]).
  • Quote: "The federal government doesn't have the authority to convert us into its deputies... What the federal government has done is said, well, if you don't do it our way, we're going to saturate your state with 4,000 ICE agents until you cry uncle and obey us. And that's unconstitutional and illegal." —Josh Shapiro quoting MN AG ([00:49])
• Governorial Pushback: Wallace notes that even some Republican governors have condemned the federal response ([01:25]).
  • Governors across party lines, including TX, VT, and OK, call for restraint against ICE excesses.
• Shapiro’s Position: Governor Shapiro strongly opposes unchecked federal enforcement in PA, emphasizing state sovereignty under the Tenth Amendment ([03:49], [05:38]).
  • Quote: "We will be prepared in the court, we will be prepared in the community." ([03:49])
  • "There's no question that this mission is compromised and the mission needs to be terminated, period." ([05:38])

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2. Public Safety and Community Trust

• ICE’s Impact: Shapiro argues that Trump’s policies are eroding community safety and destroying critical trust between law enforcement and residents ([03:49]):
  • "The story that is often missed... is how these federal officials... are eviscerating the most important thing you need to keep a community safe, and that is trust. Trust between law enforcement and the community they are sworn to protect." ([04:31])
  • Cites reduction in crime and gun violence in PA as results of maintaining local trust.
• Learning from Minnesota: Shapiro shares that PA has prepared concrete measures—legal, law enforcement, and otherwise—to resist federal overreach if ICE surges into his state ([07:06]):
  • Details remain confidential for security and "element of surprise," but openness to all options is emphasized.

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3. Accountability and the Rule of Law

• State Authority to Prosecute: Shapiro makes the case for state-level investigations and prosecutions, arguing that state crimes cannot be pardoned by President Trump—even as federal pardons are misused ([07:38], [09:54]):
  • Quote: "Based on what I saw of the killing of Mr. Peretti, I'd charge voluntary manslaughter... I'd charge obstruction of justice... I'd charge conspiracy." ([07:38])
  • "No one is above the law." ([09:04])
  • "State crimes are not pardonable by Donald Trump." ([09:54])
• Critiquing Pardons and Federal Hypocrisy: Shapiro slams Trump’s use of pardons, citing both hypocrisy (e.g. pardoning January 6th rioters and foreign drug traffickers) and damage to the justice system ([09:54]).

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4. The Political Climate and Civic Engagement

• Rising Tribalism and Hope: Shapiro acknowledges acute tribalism but retains faith in ordinary Americans’ goodness and desire for basic security and opportunity ([11:38]).
  • Quote: "Most folks just kind of want the same core things. They want a good school for their kid. They want a safe community." ([12:22])
• Leadership Disconnect: Both parties, Shapiro says, have failed at times to listen and deliver, but he stresses the importance of “showing up in people’s communities” and getting things done ([12:31]).
  • His personal mantra: “GSD—get stuff done.” ([12:46])

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5. Personal Experiences with Political Violence

• Surviving an Attack: Shapiro describes in detail a harrowing anti-Semitic attack on his family at the Governor’s Residence ([13:24]):
  • Memorable moment: "Trying to explain this to your kids... when he asked, did they do this to us because we're Jewish? ...We were thankfully not physically harmed... but I think we still bear some emotional scars from it." ([13:24]–[15:51])
  • Discusses honesty with his family and the emotional toll of public service.
• Motivation to Serve: Despite the trauma, public violence has strengthened Shapiro’s resolve to serve—grounded in both his upbringing and faith ([15:56]).

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6. Resilience of Civil Society

• Solidarity in the Face of Fear: The mass mobilization in Minnesota inspires Shapiro, with Americans showing “self-determination” reminiscent of the nation’s founding ([17:08]).
  • "To see them take to the streets peacefully... that inspires me."
• Shift in National Mood: Wallace and Shapiro discuss a palpable shift—from despair and inaction to active resistance and hope, as people quit “pulling the covers up” and get involved ([18:22], [19:09]).

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7. Behind the Scenes: Shapiro’s Vetting for VP

• The Harris Ticket: Shapiro discusses his experience being vetted as a potential running mate for Vice President Kamala Harris ([21:26]):
  • Shares discomfort with invasive questions about his identity and faith during the vetting process ([21:58]):
    • Quote: "Have you ever been an agent of the Israeli government?... Was she kidding? I told her how offensive the question was."
  • Ultimately, the decision not to join the ticket was about where he could have most impact and remain true to his values, not due to one incident ([25:57]):
    • "At the end of the day, I just thought it was not the right fit."

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8. Election Integrity and Facing Trump’s Tactics

• Historic Legal Fights: Shapiro reflects on his past victories as PA AG against Trump’s lawsuits to overturn the 2020 election (43–0), as well as more recent suits against federal actions affecting state funds ([27:44]):
  • "Donald Trump and his enablers sued us in Pennsylvania 43 different times... He went 0 and 43. I went 43 and 0." ([27:55])
• Renewed Threats to Voting Rights: The Trump administration’s unprecedented demand for private voter info is flagged as a red alert for democracy ([29:18]):
  • "They wanted the private personal information of all voters... I believe they want that information, to use it for nefarious purposes."
• Call to Action: Shapiro urges a national response at the ballot box in the midterms ([30:38]):
  • "If you don't like what's happening in Minnesota, show up and vote...We need a national referendum on Donald Trump and his policies."

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9. Moments from the Ground: Minneapolis and the National Response

• Outpouring of Civic Engagement: Minneapolis residents’ organizing, documentation of abuses, and peaceful protests are heralded as beacons for the country ([33:03], [35:18]):
  • Jon Stewart quote: "There is nothing more dangerous to a regime predicated on lies than witnesses who capture the truth." ([32:30])
  • Chris Hayes on-the-ground: "The palpable sense of unity that people face when they're being essentially attacked... is remarkable to witness firsthand." ([35:18])
• National Ripple Effect: Leaders and celebrities like Martha Stewart, Steve Kerr, and Chet Apatow are taking stands, inspired by grassroots organization ([33:47]).

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10. Pressure for Action and Corporate Complicity

• Tim Miller & Chris Hayes’ Analysis: Miller discusses the lack of transparency about ICE agents’ identities and ongoing abuses; he’s “gobsmacked” that officials don’t know the agents involved in the shootings ([38:58]).
• Accountability Gap: Miller and Wallace highlight the importance of sustained pressure; "If these guys had their way, we'd never know." ([39:13])
• Corporate Response Critiqued: CEOs like Tim Cook are admonished for celebrating at the White House during a moment of national crisis ([41:58]).

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Notable Quotes & Highlights

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Moment | | ----------- | --------------- | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | 03:05 | Shapiro | "My fundamental responsibility is to keep people safe... What we're seeing him do... is making people less safe." | | 05:38 | Shapiro | "There's no question that this mission is compromised and... needs to be terminated, period." | | 07:38 | Shapiro | "I'd charge voluntary manslaughter... obstruction of justice... conspiracy" re: MN ICE shootings | | 09:04 | Shapiro | "No one is above the law." | | 09:54 | Shapiro | "State crimes are not pardonable by Donald Trump." | | 12:46 | Shapiro | "I talk every day about GSD—get stuff done." | | 13:24 | Shapiro | (On attack on his family)" Trying to explain this to your kids... when he asked, did they do this to us because we're Jewish?" | | 17:08 | Shapiro | "They inspire me... to see them looking out for their neighbors... inspires me." | | 19:09 | Shapiro | "Our country has been defined by ordinary Americans rising up and demanding more... And that inspires me." | | 21:58 | Shapiro | (On vetting) "Have you ever been an agent of the Israeli government?... I told her how offensive the question was." | | 27:55 | Shapiro | "Donald Trump and his enablers sued us in Pennsylvania 43 different times... He went 0 and 43. I went 43 and 0." | | 29:18 | Shapiro | (On voter data) "They wanted the private personal information of all voters... for nefarious purposes."| | 30:38 | Shapiro | "If you don't like what's happening in Minnesota, show up and vote. We need a national referendum..." | | 32:30 | Jon Stewart | "There is nothing more dangerous to a regime predicated on lies than witnesses who capture the truth." | | 35:18 | Chris Hayes | (From Minneapolis) "The palpable sense of unity... is remarkable to witness firsthand." | | 39:13 | Tim Miller | "If these guys had their way, we'd never know... the people are speaking up and showing they still have power." | | 41:58 | Tim Miller | (On Tim Cook) "The night after Alex Preddy was killed... Tim Cook and a bunch of other CEOs... went to the White House for a party... It's shameful." |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:49–02:26: Keith Ellison & blue-state governors respond to ICE violence
• 03:05–05:34: Shapiro on safety, legal preparedness, erosion of trust
• 05:38–06:43: How to terminate ICE’s unchecked operation: courts, Congress, public voice
• 07:06–09:38: Learning from Minnesota, state/federal legal interplay, on charging federal agents
• 09:54–12:08: Pardons, accountability, PA as “party of law and order”
• 13:24–16:39: Shapiro’s account of anti-Semitic violent attack on his family
• 17:08–19:09: Minneapolis protests as inspiration; public resolve in crisis
• 21:26–25:57: Shapiro discusses vetting for VP, values, and decision-making process
• 27:44–29:18: Election defense, lawsuits, protection of PA voter data
• 33:03–33:47: Jon Stewart on accountability, social proof through citizen videos
• 35:18–38:10: Chris Hayes reporting from Minneapolis—civil resistance and community
• 38:58–43:33: Tim Miller on accountability gaps, corporate complicity, pressure for action

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Tone & Style

• Direct, urgent, and emotionally resonant: Both Wallace and Shapiro speak with conviction, weaving national and personal stories.
• Emphasis on civic action, defending rule of law, and the power of communities.
• Includes moments of reflection, grief, and hope.

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Conclusion

Governor Shapiro passionately articulates the stakes: state sovereignty, the preservation of trust and safety within communities, and the imperative to hold even federal agents and leaders accountable under the law. The episode underscores the transformation of public despair into broad-based resistance, the pivotal role of ordinary Americans and local leaders, and the need for sustained, collective action in troubled times. In a political era where both hope and outrage coexist, this conversation offers sobering truths—alongside a call to action.

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Transcript

[Josh Shapiro]

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[Josh Shapiro]

Minnesota is abiding by the law as written. We we under the 10th amendment, the federal government doesn't have the authority to convert us into its deputies. We have the right as a state, as a co sovereign to do our own business with our own tax money. And what the federal government has done is said, well, if you don't do it our way, we're going to saturate your state with 4,000 ICE agents until you cry uncle and obey us. And that's unconstitutional and illegal.

[MSNBC Host]

Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. That's Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison on the imperative of states to exercise their legal and constitutional authorities and stand up against Donald Trump and his administration's apparent attempts to shut states out of investigations into the deaths, the killings of their citizens at the hands of Donald Trump's ICE agents. It comes as governors across our country have pushed back against the Trump administration's attempts to supersede the authority of state elected officials, something Republicans used to care about. With even some Republican governors like Texas Governor Greg Abbott, Vermont Governor Phil Scott and Oklahoma Governor Kevin Stitt calling for restraint. From Donald Trump's ICE in the wake of the killing of Alex Preddy by federal agents on the streets of Minneapolis blue state governors are readying themselves, girding themselves really, for their states to possibly be Donald Trump's next target. They're preparing every tool in their legal arsenals to fight back. Here's the governor of Washington State ICE.

[Josh Shapiro]

Is, to be blunt, completely and totally out of control.

[Chris Hayes]

To say that I'm angry is the right word.

[Josh Shapiro]

I don't have the right word for.

[Chris Hayes]

How I feel about it.

[Josh Shapiro]

I'm sure how Attorney General Brown feels about it. We are not passive bystanders to what is happening and we are prepared to.

[Chris Hayes]

Use every tool at our disposal to.

[Josh Shapiro]

Mitigate against the harms inflicted by ice.

[MSNBC Host]

Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro, who has been named as a potential candidate for president in 2028 and whose state the commonwealth has been listed among the next potential targets for an ICE surge, called out the President for putting American citizens in danger.

[Josh Shapiro]

We're prepared out in the community to be able to protect our citizens. My fundamental responsibility is to keep people safe. The President's fundamental responsibility is to keep the American people safe. And what we're seeing him do in communities across this country, particularly in Minneapolis, is making people less safe.

[MSNBC Host]

That is where we start the hour with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. His new book, where we keep the stories from a life of service. Today's Pub day, and I finished it this morning and we'll talk about this. But I want to start with what's happening in the news, something we've been covering really around the clock, and that is ICE in the streets of American cities. What is the degree of activity in your state?

[Josh Shapiro]

Not what we're seeing in Minnesota, where I believe ICE is acting outside the bounds of the law. I think General Ellison was right to highlight that. I think There's a strong 10th Amendment claim that they can't really be there in the first place, operating as they are, and that's before we even get to the legal consequences. I think that those officials, those federal officials, should be held to for the killing of Miss Good and Mr. Preddy in Pennsylvania. We are preparing as though we could be next, and we have been for months. We recognize that this president seems hell bent on sending these troops into other cities with a goal, I believe, of intimidation. What they're doing is outside the bounds of the law. We will be prepared in the court, we will be prepared in the community. I think that the story that is often missed in the horrors of what we're seeing play out in Minnesota is how these federal officials, at the direction of President Trump and Vice President Vance and Secretary Noem and others, is eviscerating the most important thing you need to keep a community safe, and that is trust. Trust between law enforcement and the community they are sworn to protect. They've destroyed that with their presence in Minnesota. We have that trust in Pennsylvania between our law enforcement and our community. By the way, it's why Crime is down 12% and fatal gun violence is down 43% across Pennsylvania. That trust is sacrosanct. We're going to continue to do everything we can to protect it, to stand up to the lawlessness of this administration, to stop the chaos and cruelty that we're seeing in Minnesota and elsewhere from coming to Pennsylvania.

[MSNBC Host]

Do you agree with your fellow governor's assessment that ICE is out of control?

[Josh Shapiro]

There's no question that this mission is compromised and the mission needs to be terminated, period. I think there's three ways to terminate it this week. Number one, Minnesota officials going to court to explain how this action is outside the bounds of the law. Number two, the Congress of the United States on Friday has to vote. It seems like there is a bipartisan consensus coming together to be able to put some guardrails around ICE spending. They need to do that this week. And number three, the people need to continue to speak up. I think what we're seeing is an administration on their heels. You mentioned even Governor Greg Abbott of Texas now calling into question the president's conduct. You know, I'm not sure he's doing that out of the goodness of his heart. I think it's because he's hearing from the people. And so the people need to continue to speak up, speak up peacefully, but make sure that their voices are heard. Those are three concrete things that can be done this week to stop what we're seeing in Minnesota.

[MSNBC Host]

Can you imagine being the governor and finding out that not one but two of your citizens in your state's biggest city were shot and killed by ICE, and within 17 days, Renee Nicole Good and Alex Preddy were shot and killed. Is there anything, you know, with sort of the benefit of hindsight or of watching the state go through sort of the crucible of this first that you would do differently?

[Josh Shapiro]

Look, I think we have learned a lot from what's happened in Minnesota, so that if they were to deploy troops to Pennsylvania, Philly, Pittsburgh, anywhere in our commonwealth, that we've been able to have the benefit, if you will, of hindsight to learn and know what we would do in court, what we would do from a law enforcement perspective, what we would do with the guard and what we might do otherwise? I'm obviously not going to get into those specifics here. I will tell you as a governor, my primary concern.

[MSNBC Host]

Just to protect and preserve an element of surprise if they come, or are.

[Josh Shapiro]

They just to make sure we're keeping all of our options open to protect our citizens? Look, at the end of the day, my fundamental responsibility, and this is true of the president, it's true of any governor, it's true of any mayor or executive, is to keep people safe and to know that the federal government is the reason why people aren't safe in your community. I mean, this is not okay, what we're seeing, and we need to stand up to it. I would also just state, and I base this only on publicly available video and information I'm seeing. I do not have the background that General Ellison has in Minnesota. But based on what I saw of the killing of Mr. Peretti, I'd charge voluntary manslaughter. In that case, I would charge obstruction of justice. And if the federal government was coordinating the effort to obstruct justice and to destroy the crime scene, I'd charge conspiracy. I mean, I think we have to be very serious about not only a state investigation, but to follow that where it leads and to bring charges even against federal officials if they are warranted.

[MSNBC Host]

Well, that's so interesting, because the whole frame around the rule of law is about sort of reaching for what we've lost. But what you're asserting is that states should sort of do what they have the prerogatives to do and act out on their authorities.

[Josh Shapiro]

Absolutely.

[MSNBC Host]

More aggressive.

[Josh Shapiro]

The 10th Amendment guarantees us those authorities. And despite what Vice President Vance has said, no one is above the law, and no one has. I believe he referred to it as absolute impunity or however he said it. I mean, he's just wrong on the law. Pardon me. He's wrong on the law. He obviously has an audience of one. He's trying to please Donald Trump all the time, and that's why he obviously said something as misguided as he did. The bottom line here is there needs to be a full investigation led by the state, and charges need to be brought if they are warranted. No one is above the law.

[MSNBC Host]

Well, and those charges would be immune from Donald Trump's sort of pardon fetish. He seems to be signaling, as he did in the first term, that if you're doing what he wants you to do, pardons are available. He doesn't seem to have much of a bar for that. But state crimes aren't pardonable by Donald Trump.

[Josh Shapiro]

State crimes are not pardonable. And look, I mean, that's a whole other top. I think this president has absolutely abused his power to pardon. It is certainly his and is certainly technically legal what he's doing. But he's undermining the rule of law. He's undermining our justice system. And frankly, it makes it harder to take him at his word when he takes other actions. Here's just one concrete example. You go set the pretext for taking Maduro out to be about combating drugs and in this country, and then you pardon the former Honduran president who was one of the biggest drug runners across the globe. I mean, you're calling into question the very foundation of your argument. When you exercise your pardon power that way. You want to claim. Here's another example. You want to claim that you're the party of law and order. You want to claim that you're the party that supports law enforcement, as they do, oftentimes led by Donald Trump. And literally, the first signature you affix to a document in your second term as president is to pardon the people on January 6th who assaulted cops. Come on. Look, I think what we're seeing more and more is a Democratic Party, particularly the way in which we respect law enforcement in Pennsylvania. We're the party of law and order. And I think it's nonsense for Donald Trump and his allies to assert that any longer. Given their record on pardoning those on January 6, given their record on Minnesota, given their record on these extensive pardons.

[MSNBC Host]

Do you feel like the political climate is shifting right now? Do you feel like we're living through a shift, or do you feel like people are still sort of in their tribes and in their corners?

[Josh Shapiro]

I mean, look, there is some tribalism for sure.

[MSNBC Host]

There's more than some. There's a ton.

[Josh Shapiro]

There is tribalism for sure. I should delete the word some. But, you know, as I write in the book, and I know we'll get to that in a minute, I think there's so much goodness in the people, particularly I see it in my state, which is, you know, the swingiest state in the whole country. Right. As politically as divided as you get. And most folks just kind of want the same core things. They want a good school for their kid. They want a safe community as long.

[MSNBC Host]

As you support their sports teams.

[Tim Miller]

May.

[MSNBC Host]

Be more tribal, but let me. I don't disagree with you about the people, but our politics have seemed as though the people have been abandoned by their leaders. Do you think that is changing?

[Josh Shapiro]

I think in many ways, the leaders, some of the politicians have stopped listening to the people have stopped taking their cues.

[MSNBC Host]

Do you think Democrats are guilty of that?

[Josh Shapiro]

I think both parties are. And I think what we need to do more of is show up in people's communities, by the way, even communities that didn't vote for you or didn't vote for your party. Listen, learn and do. I talk every day about gsd, get stuff done. And I think if you talk to.

[MSNBC Host]

People, Bill Barr crossed that that S word for us many, many moons ago. So.

[Josh Shapiro]

Well, I think if you talk to most people, just Want government to like, solve some problems in their lives, make their lives a little bit better. And I think both parties are guilty of not listening to people and not doing and delivering.

[MSNBC Host]

Do you sort of look back? I mean, the book, you detail, you detail a horrific attack on your home and on your family. And I wonder if you can, I mean, we covered it from the outside, tell the story from the inside about what it was like to be a target of political violence, of anti Semitic political violence. Will you tell that story here?

[Josh Shapiro]

I mean, look, the facts, I think folks know at this point, we had just wrapped up our Passover Seder. About 20 of us were there. Big family event. Like most Shapiro family events, they last well into the night, way later than they should. We had just retired to the sleeping quarters of the governor's residence and someone had broke in with a metal hammer, threw Molotov cocktails throughout the house and was trying to hunt me down in the residence with that hammer. And as he later stated, he was going to use it to try and kill me. He was convicted. He's behind bars for up to 50 years, convicted of attempted murder, aggravated arson and other crimes. I think the first reaction when I got that bang on the door from the state trooper was just get my family out. It's a fire. It's probably some accident in the kitchen. Nothing to worry about except get them out, make sure they're safe. And as we saw the firefighters rushing in, you're reminded of what real heroism and real bravery is. As we're running out, they're running in. It wasn't until a few minutes later we learned that this was a targeted attack. And then the hard part came, which was not about being a governor, but being a dad. Trying to explain this to your kids, being a husband, trying to comfort your wife, explain your 14 year old kid when he asked, did they do this to us because we're Jewish? And having to work through that with your kid. Laura and I just decided we're going to be honest with our kids about everything we knew. I don't, I still to this day don't know if that was the right thing, but we felt that just absolute truth, tell them everything we know and that's the best way to handle it. We were thankfully not physically harmed. The way the President was in Butler, Charlie Kirk was in Utah, Melissa Hortman was in Minnesota, Gabby Giffords, Steve Scalise and others. But I think we still bear some emotional scars from it. We're still working through it. I'm still grappling with the fact that I'm in a job, I love that. I find great purpose in that, brought this kind of trauma to my family and continues to be a risk. So there's a lot to work through. And I tried to write really candidly in the book about how we're processing that, what we went through, and making the clear point also that we're not going to be deterred, we're not going to be afraid, we're not going to stand down.

[MSNBC Host]

Is it a factor for you in considering whether or not to run for higher office?

[Josh Shapiro]

I mean, look, I'm proud to be governor, and we decided together as a family that we wanted to run for reelection. That's all thinking of. But, you know, we worked through that as a family and we made our decision. And I think we all feel a commitment to service. It's how I was raised, I write about in the book. It's how my parents raised me. It's what my faith teaches me, to serve others. And you don't have to share my religion to believe that, you know, we need to feed the hungry and heal the sick and put a roof over the head of people who need one. I mean, these are kind of universal teachings, and I think there's a universality to that faith, and that's what I learned growing up. And that's what drives me to serve to this day.

[MSNBC Host]

I think there's a service and you write about it and there's the sort of pact that you have with your family and if you live a public life. I recently told my son that we'd been swatted and I hadn't told him before. Yeah, everyone in the arena deals with it, but I feel like no one is at more risk right now than the ordinary people of the city of Minneapolis. And I wonder if anything you're seeing on the streets, American cities right now, people taking the risk of being shot to death in their hands, changes the way you're thinking about how long and how far you'll go in serving the country.

[Josh Shapiro]

They inspire me. Yeah, I mean, to see people in Minnesota, we've seen it in Philly and other places in Pennsylvania in solidarity with those in Minnesota. To see them take to the streets peacefully, to see them looking out for their neighbors, to see them standing up in a constructed way, not in a violent way, that inspires me. I mean, those are the foundations upon which this country was built and started. In the city of Philadelphia 250 years ago, this is what it was all about, about peaceful protest, about standing up and Having self determination in our DNA, that self determination is taken away from us with the overreach of the federal government you're seeing under Donald Trump. And to see Americans stand up and fight for that is inspiring to me.

[MSNBC Host]

I mean, they're fighting for each other. They're also fighting against the excesses of Donald Trump. You mentioned the Maduro operation, which is so many layers of hypocrisy. They also called it a law enforcement operation, but they must do double tap strikes in the Caribbean on boats because it's a secret act of war. I mean, how do you see sort of the mood of the country in terms of how unpopular Donald Trump seems to be getting by the week look.

[Josh Shapiro]

In terms of mood, people are scared. They're worried. I think before this week or these last couple weeks in Minnesota, I should say, and it's still true to some extent, there was a desire by some to just pull the covers up or turn off the tv. No disrespect.

[MSNBC Host]

None taken.

[Josh Shapiro]

And pretend that this was gonna go away because the last 12 months have felt like 12 years. I feel that way. But I think what you're seeing more and more is folks coming to the conclusion that our ancestors or some ancestors came to 250 years ago in Philly and says, no one's going to do this for us. It's on us now. We've got to do it. And so maybe fewer people turn off the TV and maybe fewer people pull the covers up and instead start doing things in their community, start doing things on their social media pages that call this out. I've been encouraged that it's not just elected officials or wonderful folks like you that talk about these issues every day. Steve Kerr, Coach Kerr spoke up. Chet Apatow spoke up. People who don't sort of practice politics are speaking up and standing up for their country. Our country has been defined by ordinary Americans rising up and demanding more and seeking justice over the last 250 years. And you're seeing more and more of that on the streets of Minnesota and across this in big ways and small. And that inspires me. And so for as bad as it is under Donald Trump, I'm taking inspiration from the people that I'm seeing every day do extraordinary things.

[MSNBC Host]

We're just taking a break. But on the other side, I want to ask you about. I mean, there's a lot of news in here, and I want to ask you about the process of being vetted to be on the ticket with Vice President Kamala Harris. Also ahead for us, what the People of Minnesota have unlocked in all of us what we're talking about here with the governor. They have stood up, they have organized, they have demonstrated by the tens of thousands. And their courage is proving ever more contagious as more and more people across the country are using their platforms to speak out against Donald Trump and his immigration crackdown, some of them for the first time since he was reelected as president. Beth Then White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Home to the Rachel Maddow Show. Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more. Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now. We're back with Pennsylvania's Governor, Josh Shapiro. Before I get into the book, you gave a speech about freedom that I think we either carried live or played most of it in its entirety that seemed to sort of embody the best articulation of the difference between Democrats and Republicans. Do you sort of look at what's happen now and feel like you wish you'd been on the ticket with Vice President Kamala Harris?

[Josh Shapiro]

Look, I did everything in my power to support Vice President Harris, Governor Walz, and both in Pennsylvania across the country, filming an ad for them, doing anything that was asked of me. I so wanted them to win and I think the country would be far better off had they won that election. I didn't make any kind of political calculus there for me and Laura. It was a question of how best to serve, how best to continue to be connected to our children and what was the best way to help people, the way I've been taught throughout my whole life.

[MSNBC Host]

I mean, it's all that and you write about that, but you also write a lot of pages about how it did not sit well in your gut as you went through the vet. And let me just read. This is on page 240. The ride to D.C. was mostly quiet apart from a call from Dana Remus. The Vetters people vetting. You had just one more question. Before my meeting, she told me, quote, have you ever been an agent of the Israeli government? She asked, had I been a double agent for Israel? Was she kidding? I told her how offensive the question was. Well, we have to ask, she said. We just wanted to check. She added, have you ever communicated with an undercover agent of Israel? If they were undercover? I responded, how the hell would I know? I'd been attorney general for my state. I understood what undercover work was and had dealt with and employed many undercover agent. I calmly answered her question. Remus was just Doing her job. I get it. But the fact that she asked or was told to ask that question by somebody else said a lot more about some of the people around the vice president. Now, I don't want to take a single passage that's newsy out of context. You write over and over again how lovely Vice President Kamala Harris was to you throughout the process, but I worked in politics. You are a leader of a hugely important state. Your people are a reflection of you. Was this a nail in the coffin in terms of your gut?

[Josh Shapiro]

I think throughout that entire week, I was struggling to match up my head, my heart, and my gut. And I talk about that vetting process as one of many processes I've gone through over my 20 years in politics where I had a fork in the road and had to make a decision, and I was struggling with this one. That is one piece of a larger vetting process. And I've got no ill will toward Ms. Remus or anyone else who was involved in that process. I think, for me, though, that was not the decider. It was, you know, frankly, being able to have a candid meeting with the vice president, where, to this day, I'm grateful that she was directing Candid with me and I was directing candidates, and I thought that we had a very, very good, honest dialogue about what she envisioned for that role. I then went home later that evening, reflected on it, prayed on it, spent time talking to Lori and the kids, and ultimately decided that evening that the vice president had a very important decision to make, arguably the most important decision she would make. And I didn't want to be considerate in that. And so I picked up the phone that evening, you know, roughly, I guess, 48 hours before she made her announcement, to just say I did not want to be included in that process. And that was the alignment of head, heart, and gut. And there are other stories in this book, both from a personal level, as a husband, as a father, in my journey in public service, where I've frankly struggled to line those three things up and be able to come to a conclusion. I think one of the other things that's clear in the book is oftentimes the conventional wisdom said to go this way, and I went that way. And conventional wisdom seems wise usually at the time. But what I've learned in life is you've really got to focus on what drives you, what your core values are, the things motivating you, and follow that. And this was, of course, the biggest stage where I had to deploy that thought processes. But I'm proud of the process we went through and the decision we made.

[MSNBC Host]

I mean, just to let you put this in your own words, do you think that it was a misalignment in terms of your views about Israel, or is it your values about how you served your country and leaving Pennsylvania? I mean, I just want to make sure that I understand what you're saying about a misalignment of values, because a lot of what comes out in the vet are questions about whether or not you'd go to Michigan and apologize for the things you'd said about your faith. Was it a misalignment of your values around something so central to who you are, or was it a misalignment in your values in terms of how you would serve and in what capacity?

[Josh Shapiro]

I think it really came down to what's the best way I can serve others. Look, I'm committed to a life of service. We've talked about the different ways I've served over many years in different capacities. And I want to be in a position of service where I can have the most impact, where I can be heard, and where the people that I've learned from over the years I write about in this book. Those values that I've learned along the way can be deployed to make people's lives better. And at the end of the day, I just thought it was not the right fit. And again, I appreciate the job her staff had to do, and I truly appreciate how candid and forthright the vice president was in the time she gave me when we had that direct dialogue.

[MSNBC Host]

Let me ask you one more question. We got to know you as a show during COVID when you were the Attorney General of Pennsylvania. And I just interviewed Leslie Jones, who has one of her funniest commentaries. When your son walks in the background of one of the interviews, I think that my colleague Rachel Maddow was out and I was filling in, and I think it was at 9 one day, and you were booked for her, and I was filling in, and he walks in the back, and it's sort of become interconnected with COVID memories and Covid culture, with that extraordinary 2020 election. But the fact of it, the reason we were having that conversation is you were defending the commonwealth against frivolous lawsuits from Donald Trump and his campaign, and that is, for him, still very much alive. Pam Bondi had brought some of those suits in Pennsylvania, and she's now the Attorney General. What with your experience as Pennsylvania's Attorney General, defending those lawsuits, defending the integrity of the vote in Pennsylvania, should We be prepared for as a country, as we head into the midterms with a lot of those characters, as Nick Corsanini just reported in the last hour, pulling the levers of power at the federal government.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah. Well, you'll recall when we were talking back in 2020, when my kid walked behind me on in and out, we.

[MSNBC Host]

Should say he had no interest in being on and out.

[Josh Shapiro]

Yeah, I think he realized. And then he backed out. Right back out.

[MSNBC Host]

Yes.

[Josh Shapiro]

You know, Donald Trump and his enablers sued us in Pennsylvania 43 different times to stop legal votes from being counted. He went 0 and 43. I went 43 and oh, and we had a free and fair, safe and secure election. Fast forward to the first year of his administration as governor. Now, I've sued the president 19 times. We're 19 and 0. And we've been able to recover over $3 billion in Pennsylvania tax dollars that were taken away from us, that belong to us. And we're in the midst of litigation right now. To get to the heart of your question here involving protection of elections, once again, a couple months ago, the Trump administration demanded that I turn over all of the voter information for roughly 9 million voters in our commonwealth. Now, for those who don't know, you know, certain information is public. Right. Josh Shapiro, Democrat, lives at this address, is his voter history. They didn't want that. Anybody can get that. You can go get that. Either party can. They wanted the private personal information of all voters. And understand, I have a legal obligation to protect that. Secretary Al Schmidt, our great secretary of state in the commonwealth, has a legal obligation to protect it. It also raises the question, what the heck do they want it for? I mean, I know that.

[MSNBC Host]

What do they want it for?

[Josh Shapiro]

With everything going on in Minnesota, they're demanding the voter file as a condition or maybe a precondition of withdrawing the troops from Minnesota. I believe they want that information, to use it for nefarious purposes. I believe they want to undermine our elections. And listen, this is not, you know, hyperbole past his prologue here. I mean, 43 lawsuits to try and undermine the right to vote and the rule of law in Pennsylvania four years ago, five years ago, at this point, they want to do the same thing, and they want to wreak havoc and make it harder for people to vote, because they know that when the public goes out and votes, that that ultimately is a referendum on their work. And I think they're worried about what that referendum would look like. And I just want to say, you know, to the American people, you don't have to live in Pennsylvania. You don't have to live in a swing state in these midterms. We need a national referendum on Donald Trump and his policies. If you don't like what's happening in Minnesota, show up and vote. Even if you're in another state, even if you're in a state where Your district is 80, 21 way or the other, people need to show up. We need to hear their voices. And that's going to help usher in real change in this country.

[MSNBC Host]

Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for coming here to talk about it. It's great to get to talk to you about all things. Thank you.

[Josh Shapiro]

Thanks for having me.

[MSNBC Host]

The book is called Where We Keep the Stories From a Life of Service. It's out now, today's pub date. Governor, thank you for spending time with us today.

[Josh Shapiro]

Thank you.

[MSNBC Host]

When we come back, as thousands of Minnesota residents stand up to Donald Trump, their courage is proving to be contagious, lighting the way for the rest of the country as more and more people who don't usually speak out, who don't usually use their platforms to talk about politics, are voicing discontent and anger over what is happening in Minneapolis. We'll show you what that looks like today. And we'll be joined by our colleague Chris Hayes, who is there after a short break.

[Josh Shapiro]

Start your day with the MSNow Daily Newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.

[MSNBC Host]

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[Josh Shapiro]

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[MSNBC Host]

In the face of the constant and disorienting gaslighting from the Trump administration about the violent and deadly force used by agents deployed to their city, the people, the people of Minneapolis have become beacons for all of us. Witnesses to atrocity, bearing witness for everyone. With cell phones in hand, their video evidence fully contradicting the Trump administration's efforts to vilify the two U.S. citizens slain by federal agents Renee Good and Alex Preddy, who was holding a cell phone while agents fired off at least 10 shots killing him last night, Jon Stewart pointed to their roles as the last witnesses to accountability.

[Josh Shapiro]

That's how they lie when they know we know. Imagine how they lie when there's no evidence to contradict them. And maybe that more than anything explains why Alex Preddy really was a threat, because he was Brandishing a weapon, a handheld aluminum 1080p 60fps weapon of mass illumination. Because there is nothing more dangerous to a regime predicated on lies than witnesses who capture the truth.

[MSNBC Host]

As always, profound, profound words from Jon Stewart here. The thousands and thousands of citizens at Minneapolis who have rallied and organized and demonstrated they have unlocked something in the rest of us, something we haven't witnessed since the murder of George Floyd. As a result, more and more people in positions of power are now following those people and using their platforms to voice their outrage.

[Josh Shapiro]

Watch. We need to believe what we're seeing with our own eyes. Our government is allowing anonymous masked agents to execute its own citizens and then lying about it. Now, a clear sense of checks and balances. It makes it very difficult for any community that's feeling oppressed, particularly to feel like they have support.

[MSNBC Host]

It's been a long time since I've put anything on on Instagram. I am outraged and sickened by what is happening under the Trump regime. The cruelty, inhumanity and arrogance, the voracious corruption, the cowardice, the sickening hypocrisy, the blatant manipulation of facts, and now the cold blooded murder of American citizens. Even Donald Trump's own former Vice president, Mike Pence is calling out the Trump administration, calling the images of Alex Preddy's murder, quote, deeply troubling and calling for a full and transparent investigation to take place immediately. And this extremely rare political statement from Martha Stewart, the Martha Stewart who writes this quote, I am disheartened and sad each and every day that we cannot demonstrate our sympathy for the beleaguered, that we are told immigrants, which most of us are descended from, are unwelcome, that we cannot show our frustration and peaceful demonstration, and that we can be attacked and even killed by federal troops. Martha Stewart says she chose to speak out after her 14 year old granddaughter texted her this quote. I'm not sure it's excusable to not be speaking up right now. I want to bring in my colleague, Chris Hayes, the host of All In. He is on the ground in Minneapolis. Also joining us, political analyst, host of the Bulwark podcast. Tim Miller is here as well. Chris, tell me everything.

[Chris Hayes]

Well, we just got here. We're standing not far from where Alex Purdy was killed. There's a memorial that's in May. There's dozens of people there. They've been coming through all day. And I just got off a shift, actually, with two folks that are part of the fabric of civil resistance that's grown up here over the last Two months that were doing an ICE patrol. They basically ride around and they look for ICE cars and see if anyone is being abducted. They attempt to document those abductions, if they happened, and blow whistles on them. And just getting this sense of, like, the amount of infrastructure that is built up among ordinary people rising to this moment because of how horrified they are across all these different lines of difference that you would find in any major city. I mean, people stereotype cities as these sort of, like, you know, liberal bastions. But any place with hundreds of thousands of people is going to have all. All kinds of different people with all kinds of different views. And the palpable sense of unity that people face when they're being essentially attacked, which is how it feels to the people who live here, is remarkable to witness firsthand.

[MSNBC Host]

There's something about watching the human spirit out there after the atrocity, right. And out there in bigger numbers. And I, like you, covered the first shooting of Renee Nicole Goode with fear for these people that are out there, but with awe when there were more of them out there that night and the next day. And it seems that the same has happened with the killing of Alex Preddy. Just tell me where that is coming from. I mean, have you. Have you figured that out from being on the ground? Is that. Is that them? Is that this moment? Is that this moment meets a city? What is that?

[Chris Hayes]

There is this really profound and powerful sense of resolve and just kind of like moral fortitude. I mean, the two folks that I was riding around with, I asked them about that. I said, when Nicole. When Renee Goode was shot on that day, how did you feel? We were really upset. And then we had to go and go to the local high school where ICE had showed up, and we had to be there for them. And they use this word a lot. Everyone who's sort of active in this kind of, again, burgeoning civil resistance here uses this word neighbor, as the kind of fundamental unit that they're talking about, the kind of building block of what a democracy is. I don't want to see my neighbors taken. I want to protect my neighbors. I want to make sure my neighbors have food. There's something that's almost. It's not said in very, like, partisan or factional or even ideological terms. It's said at the most basic, human to human, shoulder to shoulder, neighbor to neighbor terms that it's wrong for the people that we live beside to be taken and preyed upon by our government. And it's important that I do everything to stop that from happening and protect them for as long as it takes.

[MSNBC Host]

Chris, I'm so happy you're there. I'm so excited to watch your reporting from there. Please, I don't want you to freeze to death, but come and be with us while you're there as much as you want to. We will gather around in my house and watch your show tonight at 8 o'.

[Chris Hayes]

Clock.

[MSNBC Host]

Thank you so much. So much for being.

[Josh Shapiro]

Thank you.

[MSNBC Host]

Appreciate it. Special edition of all in tonight at 8pm Chris Hayes live in Minneapolis. Tim Miller and I will be back on the other side of a short break. Stay with us, Tim, you have a very newsy interview with Governor Walz today. Tell us what struck you most. I mean, I'm riveted by the fact that he doesn't know the name of the ICE agent who shot Alex Preddy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, look, I think it all has echoed a lot of what Chris said in the last segment, just about the spirit of Minnesota and the people and just how inspired he was by the people in the streets. And a lot of in the little bits of accountability. We don't nearly enough. But the little bits have come because of those people.

[Josh Shapiro]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

And just look, for example, in the Caribbean, we're bombing all these boats. We don't know who the victims are there still. We don't know who gave those illegal orders still. And the reason we are starting to learn more and there's starting to be some accountability in Minnesota is because the people are speaking up and showing they still have power. And if these guys had their way, we'd never know. So look, I am as gobsmacked and astonished as you that the governor of Minnesota, that the mayor of Minneapolis does not know who killed their own citizens, that these people are and that the states know. It's not like this is a cold case. Right. The government knows. The federal government knows. Christine Home knows. Greg Bevino knows. Donald Trump presumably knows, Stephen Miller knows. They know who did it. And they've shuttled these people to another state. And so we're not anywhere near reconciliation or accountability. If, if we live in a country where the federal government can send in masked armed agents of the state, have them kill citizens and then have them secretly shuttle them off to some other city. These guys are maybe on the streets of another city. They might be here, New Orleans. We don't know where they are. And so I think that was really gobsmacking for sure. And I think that Walls was happy that they are like modestly de escalating because I understand that it is a tense scene there. But I think that the governor was very clear that like, Pavino is not the end here. Like, getting rid of Greg Bevino is window dressing. Like, they need to change the way that these agents are acting in the streets. And so I was happy to hear that from the governor. And you know, I'd hate to put more on the people of Minneapolis, but like, this isn't over, right? I mean, they will brush this under the rug if they can. And there's going to need to be continued pressure to put upon them. And this is still happening today in Minneapolis. And we've seen some cell phone videos today of some pretty unacceptable behavior still by federal agents.

[MSNBC Host]

I, like you, have looked at the sort of shards of, sort of fragments of excuses for hope. And I feel like on days that you're hopeful, I'm not and when I'm hopeful, you're not. So we balance each other out. And I have found some hope in the number of people who've spoken out following the people of Minneapolis. And again, I just saw a post from Tim Snyder, like, it doesn't matter if you, if you haven't stood up against authoritarianism and fascism in your own country until now, do the right thing now and we'll deal with who joined the effort later. But the idea that Tim Cook is on the other side, right, he's like the opposite example. Literally eating cake with Melania and screening her, whatever the movie about her is, is something you brought attention to in a post today. And I wonder if you could just expand on your thoughts.

[Tim Miller]

Look, I just can't even imagine it. And the night after Alex Preddy was killed by Donald Trump's armed goons, Tim Cook and a bunch of other CEOs, but he's the biggest name. Put on a tuxedo and went to the White House for a party. There's a picture of him holding a glass of wine with the director, is accused of sexual assault and he's toasted. He went to the White House to toast Melania the night that Alex Preddy was killed. And think about the contrast between that and the people in those sub zero temperatures out there protesting for their neighbor and for their fellow citizen. None of those people have the resources that Tim Cook has. None of them have personal security or anything else. And yet he was at the White House. It's shameful. And so I agree with you. Look, there's some little shards of hope. And in some ways there's something to be said for the cowardly CEOs like Sam Altman for example, put out a statement OpenAI today where it was where he said, I'm concerned about ice. I'm shorthanding it. But Donald Trump is a very strong leader, so I'm sure he'll make it better. So it's like, that's not a great statement. There's not a lot of hope in it. But it's better than the nothing statements that he's been saying. Right. And so you can see, like, the pressure that is being put to bear on these people. It's coming from the ground and it's coming from the people in the streets. It's coming from the videos. They wouldn't be doing this if there aren't videos, as Jon Stewart said. But, like, that's why the pressure's got to keep going. Right. Because they'll be happy to go back to their comfortable offices and not have to weigh in on this again if there, if there's not continued uproar over the behavior of these agents.

[MSNBC Host]

Yeah. And you have to come back tomorrow because I'm sure you're seeing what I'm seeing, a lot of calls for boycotts and economic strikes. I wonder if we could have that conversation tomorrow, because that feels like the debate about where this goes, if it continues. Tim Miller, thank you for jumping on with us today. I know you've already had a busy day. A quick break for us. We'll be right back. I know a lot of you have listened to it already because I've seen your nice notes about the incredible and the brilliant Susan Rice. She is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. She is thoughtful and deliberate and powerful and wise in absolutely everything she says. After decades of public service under 33 different presidents. You can watch the conversation now on YouTube by scanning the QR code on your screen right now, or you can listen to it wherever you get your podcast. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes.

[Josh Shapiro]

We are grateful as President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the MSNow News Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[MSNBC Host]

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

[Josh Shapiro]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.