← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“A critical flashpoint”
00:42:47
Nicolle Wallace covers the latest on Trump's Epstein scandal.
Loading summary
Transcript66 lines
- [00:00]
A
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today, Saturday, October 11, from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scar, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.
- [00:56]
B
People are never going to forget.
- [00:58]
C
The problem is, do we have any power?
- [01:01]
B
What do we do? You know, what do you do? I mean, you definitely can change the.
- [01:05]
C
Way you vote, like if it comes up again.
- [01:07]
A
But the problem is this is a bipartisan issue.
- [01:09]
B
Bipartisan, certainly not a hoax. If Ghislaine Maxwell's in jail, too, she's in jail for sex trafficking. But the question is to who?
- [01:16]
D
Who?
- [01:18]
B
You have to be sex trafficking to.
- [01:21]
C
Someone, somebody in order to go to jail, right?
- [01:23]
B
So who? How's that work?
- [01:28]
D
Never stop asking questions and you have tons of power. You're Joe Rogan. Hi again, Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the East. On the scale of momentous and impossible to ignore Joe Rogan reminding his millions of listeners that they can, quote, change the people they vote for is a clear sign that Joe Rogan is not going to become Lindsey Graham. In this story, he's refusing to to buy the BS being peddled by the Trump White House and rescue Donald Trump from a crisis of his own making. His botched handling of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. The scandal has proven to be sticky and a critical flashpoint and growing political nightmare for Donald Trump and his entire administration as well as Republicans in Congress who in a sign of weakness, decided to tell everyone they were leaving Washington to go home to hide from the Epstein scandal. Now it is the subject of a significant brand new court ruling that broke late today. The judge overseeing the Epstein case saying he will not unseal the grand jury transcripts and exhibits, rejecting a request by Donald Trump and his bid to appear transparent and quell this political firestorm. Bipartisan backlash to his handling of it. In his ruling, Judge Richard Berman writes this today, quote, a significant and compelling reason to reject the government. Government's position in this litigation is that the government has already undertaken a comprehensive investigation into the Epstein case and not surprisingly, has assembled a, quote, trove of Epstein documents, interviews and exhibits. And the government committed that it would share its Epstein investigation materials with the public, end quote. Judge, Judge Berman also writes this, quote, the information contained in the Epstein grand jury transcripts Palestine. In comparison to the Epstein investigation information and materials in the hands of the Department of Justice, the government is the logical party to make comprehensive disclosure to the public of the Epstein files. By comparison, the instant grand jury motion appears to be a diversion from the breadth and scope of the Epstein files in the government's possession. Judge Berman's ruling coming one day after the Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee announced his committee intends to release Epstein investigation records to the public, which the Justice Department is expected to begin sharing with members on Friday. As the questions pile up, so too does the political peril for Republicans who could be forced into a vote next month that the New York Times says will, quote, thrust them into a political thorny position between Trump and constituents with a timetable that, quote, all but guarantees that the issue would hang over lawmakers throughout the August recess and that Republican leaders would be forced to address it when they return. That is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy docket Mark Elias is here. Plus former acting assistant Attorney General for National Security at the justice department, Mary McCord is here and MSNBC senior contributing editor Michelle Norris is here. Mark Elias, it is something I came to late, but something I now cover enthusiastically. And that is the political import to the Trump coalition and the Republican majority in Congress of support from the manosphere and this culture adjacent political wing. When you have the ostensible leader of that cultural adjacent movement saying we can, quote, change who we vote for next time, and explaining the nature of a child sex trafficking ring on the air, which was, you've got Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, but there are people she trafficked, too, making the very logical point that to be imprisoned for felony child sex trafficking, and I think there are four other convictions, conspiracy to commit child sex trafficking and whatnot. You had to have been trafficking children for sex to people. And so his point is simple and not really one to be argued with because she wouldn't be sitting in prison if she hadn't trafficked girls for sex. Two people. So where do you think this political crisis for Donald Trump stands today?
- [05:54]
C
So I think that it stands in a hiatus until Congress returns. And then there will be a critical pivot point, as you suggest. The fact is that the Republicans in the House almost certainly are going to have to vote on whether to release the Epstein fil. Now, the jujitsu that's starting to play out, you can just already see it, is that the Justice Department is going to selectively send some records to the House committee. Comer is then going to selectively release only some of those records. And I promise you, none of them will include the name Donald Trump. And so they will preemptively said, look, we did the thing that we said we were going to do. Democrats will call it out and say that is not true. And then the question is, where does the politics fall? Does the Trump coalition just say, okay, that's good enough, or as I suspect is the case, they say, no, no, no, we actually really want all the Epstein files. Like, we didn't, we didn't come this far to just have some of them. And that's where I just think, like, they have misread the politics of this all along. People can understand. People may not understand all the nuance of policy. They may not really understand how Medicaid cuts affect them this year versus next year. They may not understand who is telling the truth and not telling the truth about tax cuts. They understand what it means that there was a child traffic, sex trafficker in the name of Jeffrey Epstein that Donald Trump's campaign promised to release those files, that Donald Trump has a reason, some really good reason, personal to him, that he doesn't want them released and that the Republican Party is doing his bidding. That's not a complicated story for people. And so I think ultimately the politics cut in favor of these files having to be released. But I think the question is going to be the way in which the Department of Justice slow walks or selectively releases.
- [07:47]
D
Mary Today's ruling by Judge Berman, nothing short of extraordinary. The judge writing, quote, there is another compelling reason not to unseal the Epstein grand jury materials at this time, namely possible threats to victim safety and privacy. Victims did not have sufficient notice before the government filed the instant motions to unseal a nod. And I think a recentering around the truest part of the story, that the real victims are girls now, women who were sexually assaulted at the hands of Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Your thoughts on the language that the judge uses today.
- [08:25]
E
So to that point, I'm so glad you've uplifted that, Nicole, because one of the things that bothers me so much about this entire scandal totally of the Trump administration's own making. When you spin conspiracy theories and then you cannot deliver, they're going to come back on you because now it looks like a cover up. But with all of that swirl, I feel like we don't talk often enough about how many victims, child victims there were of this. You know, I prosecuted sex crimes in the District of Columbia, including child sex crimes. And these are some of the most heinous crimes out there. And people like Ghislaine Maxwell who enable and traffic to someone, as Joe Rogan said, I mean, they are an integral part of these types of sex trafficking rings. There aren't tons and tons and tons of them, but they exist in here. Of course we're talking about somebody who had such wealth, such power, such ability, Jeffrey Epstein, to, you know, make a convincing case through Ghislaine Maxwell, that these girls ought to come and engage in sexualized massages except, etc. That is that same sort of power dynamic that you see over and over and over in these types of cases. So I'm really, really glad you uplifted that and I'm glad that the judge today point it out. The other thing I think that is remarkable here is Judge Berman, of course, is not the first judge to basically call out the, the not lies, but misrepresentations in the Department of Justice's own pleadings seeking to unseal these grand jury transcripts. Just Judge Paul Engelmeier just a few weeks ago did the same thing, denied the Department of Justice's motion to unseal the transcripts from the Ghislaine Maxwell grand jury and said that the government's represent presentations that these transcripts would be revealing of, of information that is of significant public interest were, and this is a quote, demonstrably false. Which means, I guess I was okay saying a lie. Demonstrably false. False. Right. And he says anybody who actually reads these would see that there is no new information there. And the government, of course, knew that. And the government, when it first filed its motion to unseal, had not even included the transcripts. Judge Engelmeier then asked for them, looked at him and said this was not an investigatory grand jury. It did not hear from victims, it not did not hear from witnesses. It heard from a single FBI, a FBI agent who gave summary testimony about the what the investigation had shown. The Department of Justice knew that when it went into court and sought to unseal those. This was what both Judge Engelmeier and Judge Berman said. This was a diversion to try to blame on the courts the lack of information coming out to the public.
- [11:17]
D
Michelle, let me show you. Let me do two things. Let me pick up on Marg Elias point about Republicans dragging this out and ask you, so what, maybe one document a week for the next 14 months. How does that sound, Republicans? And let me show you Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia talking about what Bill Barr testified to yesterday in terms of what Pam Bondi could do if she wanted to.
- [11:46]
B
He indicated that the current Attorney general.
- [11:48]
C
Pam Bondi, has it within her power to release those files right now. And so we're once again saying she should release the entire files.
- [11:56]
D
And this idea that she's going to.
- [11:57]
C
Roll out some of it on Friday and then continue this kind of planned stage rollout is not acceptable.
- [12:05]
D
Again, Pam Bunny is probably only going to do what Donald Trump lets her do. But if they want to drop it out one document at a time, literally one paragraph at a time, that seems to only hurt them.
- [12:20]
F
They're apparently counting on people to get exhausted, to lose their interest in this, to move on to something else. Because in addition to dropping these dribbles out in terms of the documents, they're also rolling out distractions every single week and hoping that people will look at something shiny in the other direction. And I agree with Mark. I just don't think that's going to happen, in part because people do understand the heinous nature of these crimes and it has such a big, you know, sorry, this is not a scientific term, but an ick factor to it, you know, and think that it's something that people are going to let go of, particularly the constituency that he really cares about, they bought into this conspiracy theory and they expected him to deliver, and he's not. And, you know, to the extent that Joe Rogan and the other, you know, people that are part of the Brotopia podcast universe are going to keep looking at this because they feel, feel like they owe something to their own constituents. You know, in the world of podcasting, the people who are at the top of those podcasts really have a very close relationship with their listeners, with their constituents, and they feel like they owe something to them. And because of what's happening here, they feel like maybe they've sold them a bill of goods and they have to answer for that. And they don't like having to ride for Trump in the way that Republicans are comfortable doing. They're not willing to go along with this. And one of the extraordinary things about this ruling that is the judge is essentially saying, I'm not going to be accessory in this. You know, I'm not going to ride for you here. I'm not going to allow you to use the courts to dole out information. And then people point to us and say that the courts are somehow inadequate in the collection of information that would explain what actually happened here. Trump is finding that there are some people who really are willing to stand up to him.
- [14:09]
D
Michel, let me, let me try to key up on something that you're pointing out and, and maybe be a little more crass, blunt about it. As a new podcaster, I've spent a lot of time trying to understand the power of this space. And I'm not endorsing this worldview. But what I understand is that they see themselves as advocates for their listeners, as people who have a direct, intimate relationship with their listeners because they're telling them the truth. And there are a lot of ways that that relationship could be exploited. And I think around Covid and around vaccines, it was and is pedophilia and covering up for men or women. In the case of Ghislaine Maxwell, who heinously carried out sex crimes against girls, appears to be, I'll just quote them, quote line in the sand. And I think there's an underestimation on the maga. Right. And among Republicans in Congress. And you can tell some of them know this isn't the case, that this is a story they're going to let go or that they can be diverted from with more brutal ICE raids that cross pressures this group, too, because I think there's sort of a tussle around what is masculinity, and I'll leave the word toxic out of it reluctantly. But masculinity isn't domination. It isn't rape of girls. It isn't dominating a landscaper with 11 armed guys. This is happening in their sort of adjacent political coalition. And they don't seem to be onto it. No.
- [15:45]
F
And, you know, and there's a demonstration of power and there's actual power, and a president actually has actual power. And in this case, what you see is a president who is using acts of cruelty really to demonstrate power when he already has so much power in terms of legislative power. And for the podcast universe, for the people who he relied on, they delivered for him. They really helped him gain office. They delivered a lot of votes for him. But they're seeing someone, and we talked about this before, Nicole, they're seeing someone that they saw as almost like an outlaw when he was running for office. I mean, it was like, you know, the outlaw Josey Wales or like Billy Jack almost someone who was, you know, a felon running for office. And in this case, they expected that the guy in the black hat would also wear a white hat, that he would also be doing something that would deliver for them in terms of sexual violence against little girls. And the fact that that is a line in the sand for them, you know, good on them for standing up on this. And I think that there's another universe that is starting to talk about this that we don't talk about as much, and that is evangelical radio, terrestrial radio. There are a lot of people who don't listen to podcasts but still listen to terrestrial radio. And a lot of them are listening to Christian broadcasters. And an increasing number of them are also, you know, I just, they can't get past the ick factor in the story. And they're expecting Donald Trump to make good on the promise of delivering something that he said he would deliver and release the fil. And so far, he's not willing to do it.
- [17:17]
D
I mean, Mark Elias, there's a foolish lack of faith we could place in Joe Rogan and the evangelicals to save us because they've not done much in nine years. And. But let me just follow up with you on this part of the story. We're also post January 20, 2025, where we already know from Trump officials that hundreds of FBI agents were diverted to scrub the files. And we know from the Trump era that Trump's name is in it a whole bunch of times. No one can unknow that fact either.
- [17:53]
C
Absolutely. And I think you're, by the way, exactly right about this culture. Not that I am a big peruser of the manosphere, but as the resident man on this panel, it is also the case that J.D. vance acts like he is afraid to walk outside Union Station. I mean, there is something very un alpha male about a lot of the things they're doing right now. The protecting the Epstein files, the ripping people off of mopeds and grabbing them and tackling them with nine or 10 people, frankly, the chasing down a guy who threw a sandwich. I suspect most of the manosphere thinks the guy who threw the sandwich was hilarious. And the idea that the White House made this big video of it is quite, you know, non masculine. And then like I said, the whole way they are treating Washington, D.C. i mean, I walk down the streets of Washington, D.C. every day and, you know, don't have Secret Service surrounding me. So there is something, I think that Donald Trump's administration has lost the plot over around this and Republicans know it. And they know that they are in political trouble on this issue. And I suspect that they also know they're in political trouble on the broader set of masculine issues. I mean, the whole reason why the National Guard is in Washington, D.C. is because some dweeby teenage kid named Big Balls got beat up. And like the manosphere knows that, too. So I do think the Epstein thing's not going away. I do think that the Trump administration is mishandling this across a lot of vectors. And I, I think that Republicans in the House in particular are going to need to figure out some exit strategy.
- [19:36]
D
All right. No one's going anywhere. When we come back, pulling back the curtain over at Fox News, a trove of brand new documents from a defamation lawsuit against the right wing channel shows just how far Fox News was willing to go to help Donald Trump after he lost the 2020 presidential election. Again, it is an unvarnished look at how deep in the tank Fox folks say they are for Trump in their own words. We'll get to that next. Also ahead for us, Trump's all out assault on American history, American museums and culture again in our country has reached a dangerous new and insecure low. He now says there's too much emphasis on, quote, how bad slavery was, end quote. It's part of a long pattern of Donald Trump denying reality, erasing history and minimizing black history in particular. What's being done to stop him from forcing this delusional worldview on the rest of us? Later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [20:44]
E
We now have reams and reams of actual documents from smartmatic and Dominion, including.
- [20:52]
F
Evidence that they planned and executed all of this.
- [20:56]
C
The president's lawyers alleging a company called.
- [20:59]
D
Dominion, which they say started in Venezuela with Cuban money and with the assistance of smartmatic software, a backdoor is capable of flipping votes.
- [21:10]
C
They were being notified by Smartmatic in.
- [21:15]
A
Frankfurt that Biden was way behind.
- [21:18]
C
And they better come up with a.
- [21:19]
A
Lot more ballots and we can prove every single thing I just said. Saturday, October 11, from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Hayes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule, and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.
- [21:53]
B
Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [21:54]
C
This week on my podcast why Is this Happening?
- [21:56]
B
China expert Bill Bishop they position themselves as look, we are the country that cares about the most important existential issue in most countries have, which is climate change. You know, we are the ones who are now in a position to help you deliver the goods and fix that. And it is very useful on several levels for them. It's also very useful in their ongoing long term competition with the U.S. that's.
- [22:16]
C
This Week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow Start.
- [22:22]
A
Your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter each morning. Read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.
- [22:31]
D
The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform transform America.
- [22:36]
A
Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [22:53]
D
Smartmatic is a voting system software that certain Fox News anchors and guests railed against without evidence in the wake of the 2020 election. It was actually only used in one county during the 2020 election, Los Angeles County. But conspiracies about it and its use spread rapidly, largely on Fox News, which is what drove the company to sue the Fox Corporation and five individuals for a whopping 2.7 billion with a B dollars for defamation. Now, thanks to newly released documents in that case, we're learning once again just how much some Fox News anchors wanted to help Donald Trump. How hard they were trying to help Donald Trump. Jeanine Pirro, who Trump has now tapped to be the U.S. attorney for D.C. sent text messages to the then chairman of the Republican National Committee in September of 2020. They read, quote, pirro openly boasted about her efforts for President Trump, texting RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel, quote, I work so hard for the party across the country. I'm the number one watched show on all news cable all weekend. I work so hard for the President and party. End quote. Another anchor noted how beneficial it would be to promote Donald Trump's unfounded claims of election fraud. Quote On December 5, 2020, Jesse Waters texted Greg Gutfeld Feld, think about how incredible our ratings would be if Fox went all in on all caps. Stop this deal. Court filings even show dissent among the Fox hosts over the truth. On November 5, 2020, Fox executive Jay Wallace was made aware by Brett Baer via text that Maria Bartiromo tweeted false claims about vote dumps in favor of Joe Biden. Brett Baer told this executive Wallace, quote, none of that is true as far as we can tell. We need to fact check this crap, end quote. We're back with Mark, Mary and Michelle. Mary, your thoughts on what we're seeing. And it's incredible to read what they said to each other privately. It's almost worse. Slash, as bad as the stuff they say on the air.
- [25:08]
E
Yeah. I have to tell you, I didn't particularly enjoy that little trip down memory lane. Right. Replaying those because, I mean, what a low point. Right. We have people who purport to be journalists who are just blatantly lying to the American people. To hear Rudy Giuliani, again, lying about what he knew he knew could not be proven. And we have more than 65 courts that threw the, you know, baseless election fraud cases out of courts, judges appointed by Republicans, Democrats and Trump himself. And now to see that the Fox News anchors were, you know, pretty much well aware, but for all of their different motivations. And I want to come back to Jeanine Pirro because she is now the United States Attorney for the District of Columbia, the chief prosecutor in the District of Columbia. To see all of them with different motivations, their different interests, personal and personal and familial interests, trying to just suck up to Donald Trump and just lie about it is, you know, obviously this is going to be very important to smartmatic's case, but it should be important to all of us. And I, and I want to come back to Jeanine Pirro because this is somebody who, if you credit what these new communications reveal was because it looks very much like one of the main reasons she was doing this was to try to be able to seek a pardon for her husband from Donald Trump, a pardon that he eventually did provide at the very end of his administration. And that looks very much like some type of a quid pro quo. Now, nothing we're seeing in there would, would support an outright bribery charge because that has to be very knowing and explicit. But it certainly seems like that is what her intent was. And to think that she is now the person making prosecutorial decisions in the District of Columbia is pretty frightening. And she should have never been confirmed.
- [27:09]
D
Let me read that part of the court filing. This is from the court filing. Pirro's hard work for the president after the 2020 election, including on air, had a not so secret agenda, getting her ex husband a pardon. Pirro's ex husband was convicted of conspiracy to commit tax evasion and tax fraud during President Trump's first term. Her ex hus sought a pardon. Pirro worked behind the scenes to help his efforts. She contacted Giuliani and others in President Trump's circle about the pardon. When her ex husband initially was not included on the pardon list, Pirro exploded. Do not call me f him. I don't care about anyone else. Her outburst stemmed from the expectation that President Trump would pardon her husband eventually. President Trump did. Pirro had earned it. What does that even mean, Mary?
- [27:59]
E
Well, that means she had done enough to convince Trump that he owed her something and he provided that. And perhaps he was also worried about what other damage she could do if he did not provide that. I mean, obviously, I don't have that piece of it. That's, that is a natural inference from what those excerpts that you just read. And it's just, you know, it's, it's, it's just highly unethical. And this is a person, again, who is now the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia. And there are a, et cetera, of a large group of prosecutors who are supposed to answer to this person that they can now read this reporting. They can read the things that she put in emails. They can read what looks very, very blatantly like an attempt to curry favor in order to get this favor to get her husband pardoned, and threats, frankly, you know, of potentially doing damage if she didn't get it. I don't want to use threats in a sort of like the legal sense, but like certainly an inference there. So, you know, I guess, because I come from that, the U.S. attorney's office in D.C. and I fear for our country, I really am concerned about how this is going to impact what has already been A devastatingly impacted U.S. attorney's office. First, under the interim leadership of Ed Martin, who could not get through the Senate and his nomination was pulled. And now through this Fox News host who maybe one time decades ago was a judge and a prosecutor in Westchester, New York, but she has left that all and any ethics she had far behind.
- [29:35]
D
Everyone sticks around. I want to share more of what we're learning through these lawsuits, defamation lawsuits on behalf of voting systems with Mark and Michelle. But I have to sneak in a short break before I do that. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. We're back with Mark, Mary and Michelle. Mark, just take us through with what's legally significant about all of the willingness to, it sounds like, be part of a political effort that they knew wasn't rooted in fact.
- [30:09]
C
Yeah. So it's legally significant for the defamation case because it goes to state of mind, right. The Fox News defense is going to be effectively, we didn't know fog of war. We were just reporting what people were saying to us. And, and we did not intend or in any way know that we were airing false accusations. And what all of this goes to is putting that to show that it's not true. Right. That the fact is that here is Bret Baier a day after the election saying, look, we're putting stuff on the air that's not true. It's crap. And then a month later, after even more crap is put on, another host is saying, imagine if we went all in on the stop the steal, right? So it goes to state of mind, the fact that Jeanine Pirro is saying even before the election, I am doing all this stuff to help the president, I'm doing all this stuff to help the Republican Party. Goes to, you know, again, the sense that, that, that what they were doing here was not honest reporting, but rather was they knew that they were spreading false information. But Nicole, I want to add one other thing. You know, as the lawyer who led the effort to defeat those 60 plus lawsuits, history would have been different. I mean, we are right now facing a president who has threatened an executive order to ban mail in voting. We have a president who in that same social media post said that he believes states need to act at his direction as his agents in how ballots are counted. I mean, that's not Vladimir Putin talking. That's Joseph Stalin talking. And imagine how things would have been different if Fox News had come out and said, you know what, he lost. President lost and just gave no quarter to the big lie, gave no platform for Rudy Giuliani or Sidney Powell, gave no platform, frankly, for Pam Bondi, who was an election denier who badmouthed the election during the same time period. How would things be different today? Even if Donald Trump had won again, he would not have the currency of the big lie. He would not have an administration stock from top to bottom, bottom with election deniers who have been and he would not have a base that has been fed these lies over and over again. So, you know, to the folks at Fox News, yeah, they'll probably have to settle this case because they've had to settle the other. And the facts are against them. But shame on them. Shame on them for what they did to their audience. Shame on what they've done to the American public. And frankly, shame on them for what they have done to American democracy.
- [32:49]
D
Well, we don't have to wonder alone. I mean, let me read you Tucker Carlson's alternate history. MARK this is from the New York Times on Tucker Carlson's text messages after the election where Trump lost. Carlson texts with members of his staff two months after the 2020 election and two days before the insurrection of the Capitol building about looking forward to not having to cover Trump. TUCKER carlson, quote we are very, very close to being able to ignore Trump most nights. I truly can't wait. TUCKER Carlson, quote I hate him passionately. Also from Tucker Carlson after the after the riot at The Capitol on January 6, Tucker Carlson texts with Mr. Pfeiffer about Trump's culpability in the insurrection and how to deal with viewers who still support him. It was two weeks before the inauguration of President Biden. TUCKER carlson, quote Trump has two weeks left. Once he's out, he becomes incalculably less powerful, even in the minds of his supporters. TUCKER carlson, quote He's a demonic force, a destroyer, but he's not going to destroy us. I've been thinking about this every day for four years. We started Mark Elias talking about the manosphere. There's nothing more emasculating than having to lie down with your, quote, destroyer and quote, demonic force.
- [34:07]
C
Yeah, I loved the way you began this hour in your reference to Lindsey Graham, right, as the ultimate in obsequious personalities. And here is someone who was once viewed as an independent, someone who's viewed as having his own personal brand along with John McCain. And he has forfeited all of that and now is a punchline to what it means to have forfeited all your dignity and self respect. And that now goes for Tucker Carlson. It goes for, for all the House Republicans and all the senators. It goes for Marco Rubio, who, you know, little Marco has never looked so small as he looks right now. With each additional government position he takes on, he gets tinier and tinier. It's true for the countless number of Republican officials who privately said that Donald Trump was a joke and now have to suck up to him. It's true for the business leaders and the big law firm leaders who, who have diminished themselves as they have bent a knee and they will never stand tall again. So it's a tragedy for Fox News. It's a tragedy for American democracy. It's a tragedy for the broader society. But the one thing that those of us who stand up against him every day will be able to say is that when others were bowing down and diminishing themselves, we were willing to tell the truth.
- [35:31]
D
Mark Elias, Mary McCord, thank you very much for spending the hour with us. Michelle sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, Donald Trump's latest attack on American history. It's being called the epitome of dumbness and we'll tell you about it next.
- [35:52]
A
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week, Nicole, she sits down with podcaster John Lovett. The more you can make that big group of pro democracy Americans feel like they're part of one big movement, the more powerful that gets and the more success we'll have the best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC, MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [36:54]
D
If you have been to Washington and walked along the mall and walked into any of the magnificent museums that are are free, then you know the Smithsonian. Donald Trump is currently at war against the Smithsonian Institution and U.S. history and education at large. That battle, that culture war, has just hit a terrifying new low. Trump says he's ordered his lawyers to, quote, go through those museums to conduct a review because to him they focus too much on, quote, how bad slavery is, end quote. Donald Trump's vision for the 21 Smithsonian museums is only the beginning. A White House official telling NBC News that Donald Trump plans to extend his review of museums beyond the Smithsonian, first holding that institution, quote, accountable and then he'll, quote, go from there, end quote. Joining our coverage is Princeton University professor MSNBC political anthropology panelist Eddie Glaude. Michelle is still with us. Eddie, glad your thoughts.
- [37:59]
B
You know, Nicole, I just think that Donald Trump is reaching for a storybook version of America, one that begins with Plymouth Rock, the kind of, you know, genteel meeting of native peoples with, you know, pilgrims and Thanksgiving, George Washington chopping down the cherry tree in the like. And that storybook version of the country in some ways absolves him and others who believe it for their responsibility for the country's history, all of the good and the bad. So I think at the end of the day, as I've said on this show over and over again, I think this is part of Trump's Ongoing effort to make America white again. And what better to do way to do it than to assault and attack our history?
- [38:45]
D
You know, though, Eddie, let me just say this. In making new maps to rig an election, you're projecting political weakness. In erasing history, you're projecting knowledge of so much guilt by association. I mean, all of it reads so feeble. Are you surprised that there's such an unembarrassed vigor to the effort?
- [39:09]
B
No, not at all. Not in this moment, Nicole. In our history, we have gone through these cycles because we, the country, believes, I think, in interesting sorts of ways, that freedom is the possession of white folks to give and to take away. And whenever we move from a sentimental move, you and I, we were on television so much during the George Floyd protest. You remember when we told the young woman to put on a mask and we saw all of these people out in the streets protesting. And in the blink of an eye, in a blink of an eye, we're here just five years later, we move from sentimentality to rage.
- [39:46]
C
Why?
- [39:47]
B
Because at the heart of it all is that some people in this country believe that freedom is their possession and the rest of us should just simply express gratitude. So I'm not, I'm not surprised at all. You know, I, in my own work, I see, when I see the Klan called, they're just simply an exaggerated expression of the bitterness at the bottom of the cup and we just refuse to admit it. And now they just want to wipe it all out of view.
- [40:15]
D
Michelle, the assault on the Smithsonian is of a piece with the assault on PBS and the assault on, I think, usaid. It is an assault on the history and the endeavor for the United States of America to do good and as a not insignificant byproduct, feel good. And I wonder what you think the real cost is of erasing our capacity to do good, about telling the truth of our history, to do good by helping the most vulnerable and desperate people on the planet. And then, by extension, as the argument used to go, feel good.
- [40:53]
F
Well, I'm going to stick with what's happening at the Smithsonian right now and the erasure of history because I see it as a form of larceny. I think our history, as difficult as it is, is a part of our wealth. It is something that helps us understand where we are today. We cannot take measure of where we are today unless we take stock of where we've been. And I see it as a form of larceny to try to take that history away from Americans. We have been engaged in memory wars for centuries. And we see that in the way that our history is taught in textbooks. We see it in monuments, and, yes, we see it in museums. And the people who want to diminish and erase that history have found an effective warrior in Donald Trump. Effective in that he can try to erase history. But here's the thing about history, it cannot easily be erased. There's an African proverb that says, the body that you tried to bury years ago has a toe sticking out of the ground today. It's impossible to actually get rid of that history because it will still be taught in places. It will still be part of our popular culture. But what you see here is an expression of power and trying to control how that history is expressed in the Smithsonian Institution, which is the place where we tell our story, where we tell the American story. And by trying to get rid of that history, it is a malignancy on our body politic. And it makes possible the return of white supremacy. It makes possible the return of unapologetic bias. And you ask what's lost? What's lost is our ability to proceed forward as a country and to do that in a way that allows us to learn from the lessons in the past and to grow stronger as a country. We know that countries that figure out how to reconcile with a difficult past have a much better path forward. And we see that in South Africa. We see that in Germany. And what's going to happen, what I hope will happen, is what happened in Germany. And that we figure out how to reconcile with the difficult past. And it didn't happen in Germany, where they have both atonement and acknowledgement in that country. It didn't happen at the highest levels. It happened because people at the grassroots decided that they wanted to figure out how to look over their shoulder, learn from a difficult history, atone and acknowledge and move forward. We're a long way from that happening in a country where amnesia is unfortunately so common when we try to reconcile with that difficult history. But I hope and I pray that we get there.
- [43:21]
D
Who leads the effort, Michelle?
- [43:24]
F
Well, in. In at this point, I think it's everybody who cares about that history. Americans have to figure out how to find the pie in history and to teach it to your children, to fight for it being taught in schools, to figure out how to do it in communal settings and to actually embrace that history in the ways that you can teach yourself, embrace popular culture. I mean, you talk about pbs. PBS is one of the places where we've kept this history alive. That's one of the reasons I think that Donald Trump wants to attack an organization like that, an institution like that. And so, you know, we will look for people who will be warriors on the other side of this effort. But I think that everybody has a role to play in this to keep that history alive, to support this, to push back against this, and to remember that the Smithsonian is not Donald Trump's institution to do with it that he wants alone. It is America's institution. It is the place where we tell the story of America. And only recently have we begin telling a more fulsome story of both the centrality of slavery and the cruelty of slavery, but also what came out of that. You know, when you tell the story of people like Frederick Douglass, like Muhammad Ali, like Rosa Parks, like so many people that you see every day who are thriving or trying to survive, they have done that despite that difficult history.
- [44:50]
D
Eddie Glad and Michelle Norris, thank you so much for starting this conversation here. We'll stay on this story. Thank you both so much for today. One more break. We'll be right back.
- [45:05]
A
The right person to take on the right today is someone who feels it in their bones and isn't just going to sit back and wait for their moment. Yes, Donald Trump is relentless. He is somebody that is out there every single day. The right people to take on this version of the Republican Party need to be relentless, too. And not just because they want to win or, or they have a political goal, but because they see something that.
- [45:29]
C
Donald Trump does and they're pissed.
- [45:34]
D
Pod Save America host John Lovett tells it like it is. He is riveting. He is powerful. He seems made for this moment. He is my guest this week on the the Best People podcast. To listen, scan the QR code on your screen to watch the conversation on YouTube. And as always, you can listen by downloading my conversation with John Levitt, wherever you get your podcast. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.