Deadline: White House — "A Dark New Frontier"

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guest: Jonathan Karl (ABC Chief White House Correspondent, author of Retribution)
Date: October 27, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace welcomes ABC News’ Jonathan Karl to discuss his striking new book, Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America. The conversation centers on the broader implications of Donald Trump’s second presidency, the escalating campaign of political retribution, and the troubling transformation of American political culture. The episode probes the replacement of guardrails in US governance, the prioritization of loyalty over competence, and the long-lasting damage to democratic norms.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump's Escalation of Political Retribution

• Trump’s use of his platform to call for criminal prosecution of key officials (Merrick Garland, Lisa Monaco, Chris Wray, Jack Smith) without evidence:
  • Wallace contextualizes this as part of a broader "wrath and revenge campaign" by Trump, weaponizing investigations and accusations as political tools.
  • Trump’s claims misrepresent lawful DOJ activity as criminal, and GOP lawmakers are leveraging these claims to attack investigations into January 6th.
  • “All this appears to be yet another instance of Donald Trump’s wrath and revenge campaign trained on targets of his choosing.” (Nicole, 03:07)

2. Insights from Jonathan Karl’s Book – Cabinet Loyalty and Competence

• Revelations about Trump’s inner circle and cabinet:
  • Steve Bannon’s outsize role: Bannon lectured Trump’s national security team, influencing Ukraine policy more than the Secretary of State.
    • “In that moment, Steve Bannon... is effectively doing more to drive US-Ukraine relations than his Secretary of State.” (Jonathan Karl, 05:31)
  • The appointment of Kristi Noem as Homeland Security Secretary, attributed not to qualifications but to loyalty and Corey Lewandowski’s personal request.
    • Bannon’s reaction: furious at the process, not at Trump, but at those pushing unqualified individuals into positions of power.
    • "She’s got no qualifications for this. This is crazy.” (Steve Bannon, via Jonathan Karl quoting him, 09:02)
  • The shift in Trump’s second term: fewer moderating influences, total fealty replaces competence as the prerequisite for high office.

3. Mike Pence’s Notes and Trump’s State of Mind on January 6th

• Karl unveils for the first time Mike Pence’s handwritten notes from January 6, 2021, documenting Trump’s pressuring and beratement:
  • Trump: "You'll go down as a wimp."
  • Pence’s retort: "It doesn’t take courage to break the law. It takes courage to uphold the law." (Nicole and Jonathan Karl, 12:14-12:20)
• Importance: These notes provide real-time insight into Trump’s intent on January 6th, a potential “smoking gun” of criminality and state of mind.

4. Weaponization of the Justice Department Post-2024

• After Trump’s victory, outgoing special counsel Jack Smith rushed to finish his report while Trump’s incoming DOJ appointees prepared to purge those involved in prosecuting Trump:
  • Karl details the handover to Todd Blanche and Emil Bovey, who quickly began ousting officials who worked on Trump cases.
    • “He (Bovey) begins effectively, like a reign of terror, going through and firing anybody that had anything to do with the cases against Donald Trump.” (Jonathan Karl, 14:38)
• The episode explores ethical fault lines for lawyers and officials: whether to stay and serve, resign in protest, or try to moderate from within. Karl attributes some resignations (e.g., Eric Siebert, Daniel Sassoon) to conscience, and leaves the judgment on others, like Blanche, to history.

5. The Perpetual State of Retribution and Its Consequences

• Wallace and Karl discuss how retribution now animates Trump’s movement and governance:
  • Karl: “The person that wants to take it the furthest is the president himself… Hell bent on winning… ready to take revenge against anybody who was trying to do him in before.” (15:05)
  • Retribution is both a political motivating force and a governing principle, with few guardrails left inside the GOP.

6. Rigging Elections and Redistricting Battles

• The Trump administration is openly influencing GOP-run states to redraw congressional maps, as seen in Indiana and the counter-moves by Democrats in Virginia.
  • Trump’s DOJ plans to deploy election monitors—a visible effort to shape outcomes.
  • Claire McCaskill, joining the discussion, asserts: “They can send all the people they want to stand and watch, but ultimately… these are state and local races… I really don’t think this does anything frankly more than motivate Democratic voters to turn out.” (Claire McCaskill, 36:48)
• Karl adds that Trump only claims elections are “rigged” when he loses or anticipates defeat:
  • “Other than that he won, too big to rig. He was so big… Sure, they tried, but he won big.” (Jonathan Karl, 38:06)

7. Trump's Transformation of Institutions and Symbolic Acts

• Wallace references Trump’s demolition of the White House's East Wing as a metaphor for the disregard for tradition and rule of law:
  • Karl: “He is making changes that will far outlast his presidency. As we started this conversation out, that extends right to the physical layout of the building.” (Jonathan Karl, 41:31)

8. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Nicolle Wallace, on the shift in politics:
  "Undoing the damage Trump is doing to the psyche of the country will be much harder... commonplace for Americans... to view those who disagree with them not just as political opponents, but as enemies." (02:40)
• On the meaning of retribution in Trump’s worldview:
  “He is seeking retribution for... all these criminal indictments, the two impeachments… the major companies in this country… said they wouldn’t donate… he was made a pariah. And he’s resentful for that… that’s what he wants retribution for.” (Jonathan Karl, 31:03)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• 01:08 — Wallace sets the stakes: Trump’s revenge campaign, targeting public officials
• 04:23 — Karl on Steve Bannon’s behind-the-scenes Ukraine influence
• 07:15 — Loyalty vs. competence in the Trump Cabinet (Kristi Noem example)
• 10:33 — Mike Pence’s handwritten notes from January 6th revealed
• 13:01 — Karl on special counsel Jack Smith’s final days and DOJ handover
• 14:55 — The reach and limits of Trump’s retribution campaign
• 18:06 — The resignations and moral dilemmas for DOJ officials
• 19:19 — The fork in the road: resign or serve?
• 24:23 — Jack Smith’s cases and unknowns on secret final reports
• 28:09 — Mark Meadows’ testimony and others during investigations
• 30:04 — Retaliation as Trump’s core political philosophy
• 36:13 — Redistricting battles in Indiana and Virginia; guest: Claire McCaskill
• 38:06 — Trump’s “too big to rig” rationale for the 2024 win
• 40:50 — Symbolism of East Wing destruction
• 41:31 — Enduring effects of Trump’s presidency on institutions

Tone and Style

The conversation is journalistic but forceful, blending facts from deep reporting with clear alarm at the state of American institutions. Both Wallace and Karl bring urgency and historical perspective, occasionally wry but always precise. Guest Claire McCaskill’s interventions add a note of pragmatic political strategy and optimism about civic engagement.

Conclusion

This episode offers a sobering look at how Donald Trump’s second presidency has recalibrated both the mechanics and the norms of American politics, placing loyalty above law and stoking a self-perpetuating politics of retribution. Jonathan Karl’s reporting provides unique inside access, particularly on the motivations, rationalizations, and resentments animating the current administration—and how their actions may have consequences long after the Trump era ends.

Recommended for listeners who want to understand:

• The personal dynamics driving decision-making in Trump’s second administration
• The weaponization of American institutions for personal vendetta
• The erosion of traditional checks and balances
• How the future of democracy may be contoured by these transformative years