← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"A dark new frontier"
00:40:04
Nicolle Wallace is joined by ABC News reporter Jonathan Karl to discuss new reporting in his latest book, "Retribution".
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- [00:01]
Jonathan Karl
When work gets crazy, I like to.
- [00:03]
Rob Lowe
Stop by the bar after have a few cold ones. I don't drink at all until 4 o'. Clock.
- [00:09]
Jonathan Karl
We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night. Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink to Drink more@rethinktodrink.com no HA Initiative Deadline White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote now@progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.
- [01:09]
Nicole
Hi everyone. Happy Monday. It's four o' clock in New York this afternoon. The United States appears to be sinking more fully into a dark new frontier in Donald Trump's malign campaign of political retribution with all the subtlety of a jackhammer. Over the weekend, Donald Trump shared on social media what was essentially a personal referral for criminal prosecution targeting the former Attorney General of the United States, Merrick Garland, his deputy Lisa Monaco, the former director of the FBI Christopher Wray, and special counsel Jack Smith. Without providing a scrap of evidence or even naming any of the laws he believes they broke to Donald Trump, alleged that those four officials, quote, spied on members of Congress, quote, taped those lawmakers phone calls and quote, rigged the 2020 election, quote. Misleading is one word for Trump's accusations. Fake, false, cockamamie. Or a few others we can say on TV because they have to do with the FBI's entirely lawful collection of tolling data. That's basic incoming and outgoing call information of certain Republican lawmakers in the time immediately surround the January 6th insurrection. Last week, Jack Smith insisted that the subpoena for those records was entirely proper and consistent with DOJ policy. But Republican lawmakers have refused to let the matter go. They are now using it as a political bludgeon to suggest that they were somehow improperly targeted by the FBI, which again was run by Chris Wray. It's an entirely upside down and backwards situation. It is punctuated by the fact that Republicans seeking Jack Smith's testimony want to interview him behind closed doors, while Jack Smith, a former special counsel himself, insists that Any on the record conversation with him should take place in public, in full view of the American people. But again, details shmeetails all this appears to be yet another instance of Donald Trump's wrath and revenge campaign trained on targets of his choosing. And as our ABC News friend and colleague Jonathan Karl writes in his stunning new book, such attacks further a poisoning of the well in the broader American life. Quote, the second Trump presidency is poised to be more consequential, more radical and more lasting than his first. Plenty of what Trump does during these four years will be undone by future presidents, and some will be unwound by the courts while he is still president. But undoing the damage Trump is doing to the psyche of the country will be much harder. The message resonated to the point where it is now commonplace for Americans across the political spectrum to view those who disagree with them not just as political opponents, but as enemies. That is where we begin today. With us at the table for the hour, ABC chief White House correspondent Jonathan Karl. He's the author of a tremendous new book, Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America. Thank you for being here.
- [04:09]
Jonathan Karl
It's great to be with you, Nicole.
- [04:11]
Nicole
You have to keep writing books because it's the only time I get to talk to you. They're so full of reporting. And I wonder if you could tell me what you reported for the book that's getting traction that you're surprised by.
- [04:24]
Jonathan Karl
Look, there's an incident that I describe. I wouldn't say it necessarily surprised me, but there's an incident I describe where Steve Bannon basically lays the groundwork for what we saw in the Oval Office with Zelenskyy in February. Ban never been reported. I learned that before Zelensky came to town, Trump was having a meeting with all his national security advisors. He was, you know, Witkoff and Rubio and Besant and Hegseth. The whole Crowd was there, J.D. vance. And they're trying to get Trump on board with this idea of having a minerals deal to exchange for security for Ukraine. And Trump is not having it. So he says, get Steve Bannon on the line. And Bannon, first the National Security Advisor waltz, calls Bannon. Bannon puts him to voicemail. Then Trump calls Bannon, because Bannon's in the middle of his show, by the way. So Bannon takes it, gets off his show and through that little speakerphone in Trump's iPhone and his telephone, Bannon then effectively lectures the national security team for the next half hour about how Zelenskyy is that punk. And you can't do a deal with him because he's going to want security guarantees. In that moment, Steve Bannon, who many people think is just kind of, like, out there making noise on kind of Trump's behalf, but not really at that moment, Steve Bannon is effectively doing more to drive Ukraine, Russian, US Ukraine relations than his Secretary of State, than Trump's Secretary of State.
- [05:56]
Nicole
Yeah, but that's not a surprising piece of information about Secretary of State. I mean, Marco Rubio is sitting there, can't find his voice, as Donald Trump fabricates an investigation that Marco Rubio described as the most comprehensive one ever done into the origins of the 2016 Russian attack on US elections. I mean, what are you able to report out about why Marco Rubio is amnesiac in his role in this Cabinet?
- [06:22]
Jonathan Karl
Look, I think that it gets to right at the heart of what makes this second Trump term different than the first. Look, there were plenty of people who did whatever Trump wanted in the first term, of course, but they weren't serving as Secretary of State, defense secretary, attorney general, White House counsel. You had people who had a sense that they had to keep the presidency somewhat on the rails. Rubio, Rubio. We know what Rubio's background is. I mean, there was, with the exception of J.D. vance, I don't think there's anybody out there on the Republican side that was a harsher critic of. Of Donald Trump before 2016 than Marco Rubio. But he also knows that to survive in this White House, in this administration, you are all in or nothing.
- [07:15]
Nicole
Let me read what you're talking about. Steve Bannon's role in sabotaging Zelensky's first trip to the Oval Office. Let me read about his reaction to Kristi Noem becoming head of Homeland Security. I have some of the polls, but I want to read it straight from the book. You sort of get into this. Subpar is my word. But the inexperienced characters that are in this cabinet that you're talking about, the explanation may be that fealty is more important than competence. And I think that gets right at how Kristi Noman's up in the Cabinet. You write that Trump says, I did it for Cory, quote, it's the only thing Corey Lewandowski asked me for. Trump was referring to Corey Lewandowski, the Republican operative who had served as his first of three campaign managers during his 2016 run for the White House. Corey Lewandowski was not well liked among Trump's advisors, but his loyalty to Trump had never wavered, and he had developed a close personal relationship with Governor Noem. That Trump would offer Noem a high profile job was no surprise. She had been a long defender of his, and in 2020, she had gifted him a model of Mount Rushmore with five faces included. His. You go on to report out what Steve Bannon said about her. We've got the global war on terror. And exasperated Steve Bannon told me two days after Trump made the announcement. She runs the whole thing. She runs the effing Secret Service. It's all of it. It's a global war on terror. It's all that. What are you talking about? She's never been in law enforcement. What is your understanding of why this was the one thing Corey Lewandowski wanted?
- [08:51]
Jonathan Karl
Well, there are certainly theories on that, but you know, Corey Lewandowski is obviously a close advisor of, of Kristi Noem, close personal relationship that they have had for several years. And this is what he wanted. And what's interesting with Bannon's reaction to this is he's furious. And you have to really hear him as he's telling me this, because I'm talking to him right after the announcement has been made. And he's like, she's got no qualifications for this. This is crazy. But he's not angry at Donald Trump. He's angry at Corey Lewandowski or Noemi or Noem. He's like, Nome's like. But he's angry that Corey Lewandowski has effectively pushed this on Donald Trump. And by the way, are they a couple? I mean, I'll let others, I mean, I'll let others answer that question, but there's no. They're obviously very close. And he is still a close advisor to Kristi Noem as the Secretary of Homeland Security. And Bannon just can't believe that that's the person that's going to be in charge of the Department of Homeland Security.
- [10:01]
Nicole
The other piece that is pretty revelatory is Mike Pence's evidence that was provided to Jack Smith that it's not clear if that ends up being sort of a tipping point kind of evidence that makes Jack Smith feel like he's on solid enough ground to indict the President. But it feels important enough that it is reported here for the first time. Tell us about Mike Pence's notes that became known to and by. And that will never, likely never end up in a court of law.
- [10:34]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah. So I mean, when you think about all that has been written and investigated and said about January 6th, I mean, I wrote an entire book about it. I know the Hours and hours of primetime hearings of the January 6 committee, all of the great journalism that has been done on January 6th. This is one critical, historic document that had never seen the light of day before. And it's the notes. And look at. It's actually on Mike Pence's date, time, calendar. So he gets a call from Donald Trump at about 11 o' clock in the morning on January 6, shortly before he goes up to the Capitol. And Trump is berating him, trying to one last time to pressure him to use his ceremonial role, presiding over the certification of the election to overturn the election. And he starts writing down what Trump says and what he says in response. One line you can see, I mean, it's a little chicken scratch, but you can go through. It's in the photo section of the book. You can see he says, you know, you will go down as a wimp. He says, I made a big mistake five years ago when I chose you as my running mate. And then in the middle of that document, down towards the middle left, you see what looks from afar like an X. It's actually. It's a sad or angry face emoji that Vice President Pence writes, like an angry face. And under it, you see that he writes.
- [11:54]
Nicole
It's quite an illustration.
- [11:56]
Jonathan Karl
It's quite an illustration from a guy, Mike Pence, who had been such the uber loyal, loyal vice president, who is now completely exasperated. And he quotes Trump on Redditor there saying, you listen to the wrong people. And Pence responds, I listen to my heart and my mind.
- [12:14]
Nicole
And you report. I think for the first time that Pence says to Trump, it doesn't take courage to break the law. It takes courage to uphold the law.
- [12:21]
Jonathan Karl
Exactly, exactly. And this is. He goes. He writes that. He takes that call. He writes those notes while he's on the phone, and then he goes to the Capitol. And of course, we know what happens. The crowd, not only the mob, not only, you know, attacks the building, but a subset of them actually call for the execution of Mike Pence.
- [12:41]
Nicole
Well, what's amazing is the whole effort to investigate Donald Trump, first by Robert Mueller and then by Jack Smith and through the course of two impeachments, is to get into his state of mind right there. In Pence's own description, he describes Donald Trump as wanting to break the law. He gets right at his state of mind, of criminality.
- [13:01]
Jonathan Karl
He gets right in real time. And, you know, I spent a fair amount of time about what Jack Smith did after the election because he was preparing a criminal case. Trump had already been, you know, already been indicted. He was preparing for a criminal trial, which was not going to happen for a while, thanks in part to the Supreme Court's immunity decision, but not just the Supreme Court's immunity decision. And then suddenly, Trump wins the election, and Jack Smith knows time is up. He's got just a matter of a few weeks to wrap up his investigation, finish his final report and take off. I mean, Trump says he's going to fire him. He's not going to stick around to be fired. What's fascinating is while Trump is preparing his transition, he still has to engage with Jack Smith. His lawyers do. His lawyers, by the way, will go by the names Todd Blanche and Emil Bovey, who are about to take over the Justice Department that is still wrapping up a prosecution of Donald Trump. And you see, and I have this chapter called Weaponized, where you get into the mind of those two, and they're fighting with Jack Smith. They don't want Jack Smith to do his final report. Jack Smith is saying, you can come and review the final report, but you have to come to my offices in Washington. You can't bring your cell phones into the board, into the conference room when you read it. All this stuff, they're taking offense to this. Who is this guy to tell us what we can see, when we can see it? We're about to take over. And then Bovey goes within days of all of that to being the one man in charge of the Justice Department. Blanche is not confirmed yet. Bondi's not confirmed. Bovey doesn't need confirmation. He's in charge. And he begins effectively, like a reign of terror, going through and firing anybody that had anything to do with the cases against Donald Trump.
- [14:56]
Nicole
What is your sense of how far the retribution, desire and what has been operationalized will go?
- [15:06]
Jonathan Karl
Well, I think that one thing that's been absolutely clear is that the person that wants to take it the furthest is the president himself. And as we've discussed, there aren't a lot of guardrails on this. But you have to, again, this is really the whole structure of the book, starting with those dark, dingy courtroom at 100 Center street in New York, where he had to sit there for weeks on end and go through a trial where he can't say a damn thing. He has to be present. All kinds of embarrassing things are coming from the witness stand. Michael Cohen is testifying against him. Stormy Daniels is testifying against him, and he must be there, and you can see him. I was up there for a few days to watch it in person. You could get a sense of just how much he was seething and angry about it. And he faces this campaign where he is either going to face the very real possibility of going to prison or he is going to become quite possibly the most powerful president of our lifetimes. Most powerful because the Supreme Court immunity decision, but also because he has completely captured his party in a way that no president of our lifetime ever had. I mean, there's nobody left. I mean, there's a Rand Paul every once in a while or Thomas Massie. There's really nobody of any consequence that is going to stand up to him. And as far as I can see in watching and doing the reporting on this, he was hell bent on winning because he wants to win and doesn't want to be seen as a loser, obviously, but ready to take revenge against anybody who was trying to do him in before.
- [16:44]
Nicole
What is your sense of how prepared Todd Blanche was for his legacy to be an in person visit with Ghislaine Maxwell? The prosecutions, over the objections of MAGA friendly US Attorneys like Eric Siebert, of people for whom there's no actual evidence to win cases?
- [17:04]
Jonathan Karl
You know, I mean, Todd Blanche, I think is a serious lawyer, had a pretty distinguished career as a prosecutor in the Southern District of New York. He did a damn good job representing Donald Trump. I mean, the strategy was primarily delay, delay, delay. And it worked facing all the, I mean, think about what Blanche had to do with a relatively small legal team spearheading the trial in New York. That's like one thing. But also being the two federal cases, one in Florida and one in Washington D.C. you know, I don't know. He, you know, appears to me he's a serious lawyer and he's got a damn important job in that Department of Justice.
- [17:51]
Nicole
Will he be willing do serious lawyers prosecute cases over the resignations of serious lawyers like Eric Siebert?
- [17:57]
Jonathan Karl
I mean, it's no secret that what happened in the Eastern District of Virginia.
- [18:04]
Nicole
What about Daniel Sassoon, Stan? Why he's called off.
- [18:07]
Jonathan Karl
I mean, as you know, I go chapter and verse. These are, these are prosecutors who are for the most part conservative lawyers. Daniel Sassoon, who clerked for Scalia, Federalist Society. Yes, Federalist Society. A serious. And by the way, it's a total, I think it's in there. I think it's seven lawyers who from sdny.
- [18:30]
Nicole
And then you write about what happens at mainedoj. But I guess what I'm asking about is when you write something like this and you have access to Steve Bannon and all the people, people around Donald Trump. You write the definitive narrative. And if we're still calling Todd Blanche a serious lawyer as he's overseeing prosecutions over the objections of peers, Danielle Sassoon and Eric Siebert aren't that much different. They just had a conscience and they resigned. How are they different from Todd Blanche?
- [18:55]
Jonathan Karl
Look, I'll leave it to others to judge Todd Blanche's legacy. My job and what I try to do here is I report what happened. And I'm not here to make a judgment about whether Todd Blanche should be condemned. I mean, I'll let others do that.
- [19:11]
Nicole
But I'm not condemning, but I'm going.
- [19:12]
Jonathan Karl
To outline what he has.
- [19:15]
Nicole
Where is the fork in the road for Eric Siebert, Danielson and Toddler?
- [19:19]
Jonathan Karl
Well, look, I think that this is a fundamental question that anybody in a position in this administration faces. Do you. And by the way, it's something that we dealt with and I tried to chronicle in my previous books with the first administration. Do you resign in protest? Do you refuse to go to work for them in the first place? Then do you resign in protest after any of the 15 things you could resign in protest for? Or do you stay there thinking that this is still the executive branch? This is the executive branch of our government and you need to have some competent people who are motivated by something beyond pure loyalty to the commander in chief.
- [20:00]
Nicole
And I have to take it. Right. But I'll ask you if there are any such people who are motivated by anything other than pure loyalty. Well, are there any people loyal?
- [20:06]
Jonathan Karl
I mean, I think that there are good people that serve in this administration. Yes.
- [20:10]
Nicole
Can you. Are they. Do they want to be named or is that not safe?
- [20:13]
Jonathan Karl
It probably wouldn't help any of them.
- [20:14]
Nicole
For me to say you have a list in your head. I mean, that would choose the Constitution over loyalty to Trump.
- [20:20]
Jonathan Karl
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
- [20:20]
Nicole
Okay, we'll see if I'm getting those names out of him. And much more on this really important new book. John Carl talks to everyone and always has the facts exactly as they are. Two more states have also joined this fight over redistricting. We're going to cover that later in the hour. A Trump led assault on fair elections in our country aimed at having the GOP hang on politically through those midterms at any cost due to their narrowing standing in the polls because of the unpopularity of Donald Trump's policies. And later in the broadcast, Donald Trump shut down Cruelty, the program that actually feeds millions and millions of Americans set to expire in a couple days. An official U.S. government agency on its website is blaming Democrats, immigrants and the trans community. Why? The Republican controlled government is shut down right now. That really happened. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [21:19]
Jonathan Karl
Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here.
- [21:21]
Rob Lowe
If you haven't heard, I have a.
- [21:24]
Jonathan Karl
Podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday.
- [21:49]
Rob Lowe
So subscribe, please and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding, and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teens safe. Sign up for Greenlight infinity@greenlight.com podcast hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. And for decades, Angie's helped millions of.
- [22:33]
Nicole
Homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter.
- [22:37]
Rob Lowe
Get all your jobs done. Well@angie.com.
- [22:41]
Jonathan Karl
When I started out, if I had told my boss at the DA's office, hey, I've got this case and I was gonna bring it, but, you know, I just found out that the guy is a friend of the da. So maybe we could find a way not to bring it. Or if I said, hey, I wasn't gonna bring this case because it's not a legitimate case on the facts and law, but I saw that he was an enemy of the DA and maybe we shouldn't bring it. My boss, my first boss, he would have tossed me out a window. Right, toss me out a window. When I was the chief of the Public Integrity Section, we were doing the highest profile corruption cases around the country. I had no idea of the politics of people who work for me because it was entirely irrelevant to our work. And that was the same when I was in Brooklyn, New York. It was the same when I was in Tennessee.
- [23:27]
Nicole
You start the Come Retribution chapter with a Trump quote from June. Quote, I was the hunted and now I'm the hunter. I'm not sure there's anyone for whom that applies more acutely in Trump's mind than the special counsel investigations. The first one that hung over his first presidency, Mueller. Mueller and his colleagues. Andrew Weissman seems to be the face of that in Trump's social media postings. But Jack Smith and you go through really how close Jack Smith came and the strength of his case, I think, is the point of the Pence notes. Right. Pence speaks to Trump's criminality in his own notes. That seems like a smoking gun of intent. I wonder if you can just take us through both what you report and what you believe now, having covered him for nine years, will ensue when it comes to Jack Smith and his team.
- [24:23]
Jonathan Karl
Well, first, I spent a lot of time trying to reconstruct what Jack Smith had done to try to reimagine what his final reports would be. We saw one of them heavily redacted, but we saw the final report on January 6th. The, the final report that he did on the documents case. Classified documents case will probably never see the light of day. Who the hell knows where it is? But it was buried.
- [24:49]
Nicole
But it was completed, right? There is a document.
- [24:53]
Jonathan Karl
It was completed. We know some of what's in there from his indictments and from what he said through his court filings. And I went through as much as I could find out, what else I could learn in both of those cases. Also, not just to imagine the final report in the January 6th case, but a trial. What would the trial look like? For instance, Dan Scavino, who is as loyal a Trump aide has ever existed. I mean, the person has worked for him longer than anybody. He worked for him as a caddy as a teenager, and now he's deputy chief of staff and he's in charge of personnel. And he's all loyal to the boss, but he was very candid. You know, he didn't commit perjury. He was very candid about what he witnessed on January 6th. And I know from, you know, from the reporting that was for this book, what Scavino described happening on January 6th. Cuz he was there with Donald Trump, and he saw Donald Trump watching the attack on the Capitol unfold in that dining room off the Oval Office and saw him getting angry. And as he said, angry. Not that people were attacking police officers or smashing and breaking into a building, but angry that Congress was about to certify his election loss.
- [26:10]
Nicole
What?
- [26:11]
Jonathan Karl
And that would have been so compelling testimony to actually, for me to report it, whatever.
- [26:15]
Nicole
Right.
- [26:16]
Jonathan Karl
But to see it in a trial, somebody hand on the Bible, sworn in, who is a total Trump loyalist, compelled to testify, sworn to tell the truth.
- [26:26]
Nicole
Well, there's an incredible scene that you write about where Bannon's coming out of jail and is on the phone with Trump somewhere between 3am and 6am And Trump, who has won the election yet, is asking him what jail's like. And Bannon assures him, we're not going to get there. Trump, based on your reporting, seems very open to the idea that he could have ended up in jail.
- [26:46]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah, there was a moment during the New York trial where he had violated the gag order so much that Judge Mershon told the Trump legal team, look, we're doing these thousand dollar fines. They're obviously not having an impact. I will jail him if this continues. And there was one moment where Trump actually issued a truth social, which was clearly a violation. And Todd Blanche, who we were talking about earlier, is, you know, frantically trying to get it through to Dan Scavino, who controlled the social media account, because Trump is not there at that moment to bring it down to delete it, which almost never happens in Trump world. And they did. And the reason is because they knew that this was a real possibility, that he could actually be temporarily put in jail. And so much so that the Secret Service had meetings about how you protect a president who is behind bars.
- [27:41]
Nicole
What is your sense? I mean, your book and the congressional investigation into Donald Trump's role on January 6th traveled down a lot of the same reporting. I think you report it first.
- [27:53]
Jonathan Karl
Yes.
- [27:54]
Nicole
And a lot of their investigation covers a lot of the same ground. What did Jack Smith have that Congress didn't?
- [27:59]
Jonathan Karl
Well, first of all, he had the testimony of a lot of the people that. Well, I mean, one of them is Vice President Pence.
- [28:06]
Nicole
What about Mark Meadows? Did we ever learn what he testified to?
- [28:10]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah, yes, we did. And we did some reporting. One of my colleagues at ABC News, Katherine Falders, did some tremendous reporting. I worked with Iran about what Pence told investors. I mean, I'm sorry, what Mark Meadows told investigators. And by the way, one thing that's interesting, and it's just a basic point, but it's a really important one. Meadows, like Scavino, like Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel, virtually everybody else around Trump at the time, said, no, we didn't see any evidence that the election was Stolen. And now I don't. I mean, could you say that?
- [28:45]
Nicole
So are they going to be witnesses? I mean, he announced over the weekend that he wants to go and prosecute everyone for leading to his loss in 2020. Will those people who were around him testify to the truth of 2020?
- [28:57]
Jonathan Karl
I mean, if you were. So I don't know who he's going to prosecute. I guess. I guess Bill Barr is one possibility.
- [29:03]
Nicole
I mean, he named Garland Monaco, Jack Smith. I mean, named him.
- [29:06]
Jonathan Karl
Well, it's funny, because they weren't really in the White House at that point.
- [29:08]
Nicole
They had anything to do with 2020.
- [29:09]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if you were, if you found yourself being prosecuted under one of these cases, I would think you'd want to subpoena every single one of them to testify.
- [29:21]
Nicole
I mean, betrayal, retribution. You get at the heart of what the essence of the Trump story is at any moment. We've all been living it for 10 years now. I mean, retribution is both the animating and organizing principle of Trump 2.0. It's also politically toxic. But your telling in here suggests that no one will tell him that. What is. Do you see any tension with that, or does Trump view himself as all powerful? Because your sort of conclusion is basically, this moment will end, someone will restore the things that he's smashing, and you write that some courts will unwind them while he's still there. How do you see retribution as a governing philosophy?
- [30:04]
Jonathan Karl
You know, we could cite polling to show that, actually, this is something that might. It does appeal to Trump's hardcore base, but doesn't have appeal to independent, and certainly isn't going to win over Democrats. It's something he talked about and pushed candidates to talk about in 2022, when Republicans suffered losses in those midterms, losses that cost them Senate seats, governorships. But he came back and he wins in 2024. So Trump has an ability to take this message more than any of the other people around him. I mean, he has. There is nobody else quite like Trump. I mean, can J.D. vance or Marco Rubio take that message and win a campaign with it, a national campaign? I think there's a lot of reasons to doubt that.
- [30:57]
Nicole
Tell us just what he is, what he thinks he's seeking retribution for.
- [31:04]
Jonathan Karl
He is seeking retribution for the way he was treated, for the fact that he faced all these criminal indictments, the two impeachments that he was canceled by the big tech companies. He was banished from Twitter, from Facebook, from Instagram, from every, basically every form of social media that the major companies in this country not only wanted nothing to do with him, but said that they wouldn't donate to anybody that was associated with him on trying to overturn the election. You remember that? I mean, this was most of the top countries in the country.
- [31:39]
Nicole
I don't know, 15 minutes. But yes, I remember it.
- [31:41]
Jonathan Karl
We are not going to donate to any Republican that voted to overturn the election. So he was canceled. He was made a pariah. And he's resentful for that. For the prosecutors that did it, for the Democrats that went after him, but also for the Republicans who he feels didn't help him fend all that off and played along, that's what he wants retribution for. He's got a long list of things that he wants retribution for.
- [32:06]
Nicole
And nowhere in his brain does he acknowledge any criminal wrongdoing the likes of which Pence writes in his own notes.
- [32:11]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah, absolutely not. Absolutely not.
- [32:13]
Nicole
All right, well, ask you what that's about next time we get to talk to you. The book is amazing. The book is another tribute to the fact that whatever else is going on in the country, real journalism still happens. Thank you very much for being able to be here and talk to us about it.
- [32:27]
Jonathan Karl
Thank you, Nicole. Really appreciate it.
- [32:29]
Nicole
The book is Retribution. We've been reading from it. Donald Trump and the campaign that Changed America for the break, as Trump starts laying the the groundwork with claims of election rigging now threatening to quote, unquote, watch voters at the polls during next week's elections. How Democrats are responding to the break.
- [32:52]
Jonathan Karl
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Rob Lowe
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Jonathan Karl
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Rob Lowe
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Jonathan Karl
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Rob Lowe
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Jonathan Karl
You get your podcasts.
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Rob Lowe
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Nicole
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Rob Lowe
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- [34:08]
Jonathan Karl
The.
- [34:09]
Nicole
Trump administration, and Donald Trump specifically, is making the effort to essentially rig the 2026 midterms one of their priorities publicly. They're not hiding it. They're doing it by bullying Republican controlled state legislatures into redrawing their congressional maps, even when they don't seem to want to. Today, Bully scored another win. Indiana's Republican Governor Mike Braun is calling a special legislative session to consider redrawing that state's congressional map. The session is scheduled to start November 3rd. Republicans currently control seven of Indiana's nine congressional districts. The Trump administration has been lobbying Republicans there for months to get on board with their plan to redraw maps. The Democrats are fighting back, entering this arena as well. Just in the last hour, Democrats in Virginia have called a special legislative session with the purpose of redrawing their congressional map to counter moves that the Republican states are making in red states. Democrats control both state houses in Virginia, and the move is an explicit sign to voters about what their agenda is with that state holding statewide elections next Tuesday. Should Democrats retain control of the state House and former Representative Abigail Spamberger win the governor's race, it would pave the way for a new map to be drawn in Virginia. Democrats across the country are making this a central issue to voters, as right now the Trump administration has an overall disapproval rating of 61% and has made suppressing the will of the voters one of its real public priorities. Case in point, Trump's Justice Department says it will dispatch monitors to two high stakes elections taking place in California and New Jersey on Tuesday. Joining us now, former Democratic senator MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill's back. And in the break, I asked John Carl to stick around since it's a rare treat to get to have him here on the news. Claire McCaskill, let me show you some of how Gavin Newsom is framing this around Prop 50 in California and then we'll launch into the larger battle over the maps.
- [36:14]
Jonathan Karl
They're creating the pretext that after we're successful with Prop 50, after there's a Democratic governor in New Jersey, there will be one in Virginia, unquestionably that they can suggest somehow these were fraudulent, these elections were rigged against them. This is a preview of 2026. Wake up, everybody. I mean, what more? They're just doing it in the open.
- [36:38]
Nicole
Trump has always relied on this. If I do it in the open, no one can call it a crime because I just said it. Strategy. Do you think it'll work in this instance?
- [36:48]
Rob Lowe
You know, I really don't. This election is particularly local. This is not a federal election. They can send all the people they want to stand and watch, but ultimately, the election authorities in these states are state and local. These are state and local races that are being decided. And the judges that would hear any challenges would be local judges, state judges. I really don't think this does anything, frankly, more than motivate Democratic voters to turn out. I hope he keeps talking. I actually believe the more he does this, the more he will encourage the voters of California to come out and answer his attempt to rig the next election. And by the way, isn't it interesting that the only elections that are rigged in Donald Trump's book are the ones he's lost? Are the ones he's afraid he's gonna lose? We haven't heard anything about 2024 being rigged. What, was there some magical fairy dust that was sprinkled over 2024 and made it all just kosher for him? I don't get it. It's only when he thinks he's gonna lose that he starts talking about that somebody cheated.
- [38:00]
Nicole
John Carl, what are you able to say from your reporting about why he thinks the 2024 election wasn't rigged?
- [38:07]
Jonathan Karl
Other than that he won too big to rig. Too big to rig. He was so big, it was sure. They tried to rig it, and they sure deprived him some votes. He probably would have won more states, but he won big. I mean, I don't really take it seriously because he won. That's what counts. When he won in 2016 for a while, you remember, he wanted to even set up a commission to look into this. How did he lose the popular vote? It eventually it went nowhere. But he wants to now still relitigate 2020, which is astounding.
- [38:47]
Nicole
John Carl and Claire McCaskill, stick around. I want to show you these. Sort of the battle for redistricting on the other side of the brink. We're back with Claire and. And John Carl. Claire, do you think Virginia does their map? I think that was maybe in the works, but not really publicly known until over the weekend. Do you think they'll proceed?
- [39:13]
Rob Lowe
Oh, absolutely, I think that's going to happen. And I think, frankly, a couple of states like mine, I think they're going to have trouble getting the new map through all the hoops they're going to have to jump through to make it happen. Before next November, for example, we're going to probably have a ballot issue. And if the ballot issue gets to the ballot, if we get enough signatures on that, it won't even take effect the map before next fall's election. So this hasn't gone according to plan for Trump. I think he thought he'd do Texas and he'd be sitting pretty. And then Newsom said, hold my beer and off we go. But I don't want anybody to forget who started this, who wanted to rig the election and change lines and make someone in Kansas City share a congressional district with somebody who's almost in Arkansas. I don't want people to forget that. This began because Donald Trump wanted to figure out a way to win an election that he saw that he was probably going to lose.
- [40:12]
Nicole
Donald Trump is right now. I think polls have him from about 34%. I don't know if there's one that's current that has him at 41, but he's at, I mean, he's as unpopular as he's ever been. He's just demolished the east wing of the White House. That's got about a approval rating. I mean, it really divides his own coalition of people who voted for him less than one year ago. You work in that building. You worked in that building for a long time. What is your sense of whether or not anybody has any idea of just how symbolic that single act is for all the things people hate about him, even some of the people that voted for him?
- [40:51]
Jonathan Karl
Well, it's certainly symbolic of how he's approaching his second presidency. It's, first of all, the rules don't matter. You know, look, he's got, he have the planning commission that would technically be responsible for overseeing new construction at the White House, but not deconstruction. I mean, not destroying part of the White House. But they're gone. They've been replaced. You know, all the Biden appointees have been pushed aside. It's all Trump appointees. And he just went through and did it. So it's a metaphor for I do what I want to do, but it's also a metaphor for the kind of change he is making. He is making changes that will far outlast his presidency. As we started this conversation out, and that extends right to the physical layout of the building. Look, the next president. And by the way, I spoke to Gavin Newsom recently. We've got an interview that's going to go out on Wednesday, long conversation. And I asked him, will the next president, will the next president undo all that Trump's done? Well, they can't like magically make the East Wing reappear. I mean, they can take the gold off the, out of the Cabinet Room.
- [41:57]
Nicole
Don't you think they'll try to restore it? I mean, there are restoration projects all over the world.
- [42:01]
Jonathan Karl
Yeah. I mean, but how much of that ballroom is done by then? Who knows? The point is he is there will be efforts for many, many years to undo what he has done. But some of those things are going to far outlast him.
- [42:15]
Nicole
It's an incredible painful reality to anyone who sort of revered some of the institutions in the office presidency. But I think you're right. I fear that you're right. Congrats again on the book. Thank you for sticking around for the rest of the hour. Claire McCaskill, I'm sorry we were short on time today. We went too long on John's great new book. But thank you for joining us. Of course, a very short break for us. We'll be right back. Hurricane Melissa is strengthening to a Category 5 storm as it prepares to bear down on Jamaica. It is looking to be the island's strongest recorded storm, unleashing catastrophic flooding, landslides and widespread damage. If it maintains this strength, it will be the strongest hurricane to hit Jamaica in recorded history. The storm has already been blamed for six deaths in the northern Caribbean, and according to the National Hurricane center, it is the planet's strongest storm of the year. The U.S. state Department says that it is continuing to, quote, closely monitor Hurricane Melissa and evaluate the need to send assistance, according to a spokesperson for the State Department. We'll stay on top of the storm and the potential fallout. When we come back, we'll look at the government shutdown and what damage it has brought to millions of Americans already. The next hour day, then White House starts after quick, quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [43:42]
Jonathan Karl
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