Bora Clark (2:25)

Brings us to today, almost a full circle moment for Pete Hegseth and the Trump White House. The initial massive scandal which embarrassed the country and Donald Trump and his national security team, Signalgate. It was a massive national security breach. It was made possible entirely by the sloppy and haphazard nature of Donald Trump's national security team, whether they shared national security information, including war plans. And then former national security adviser Michael Waltz accidentally added Jeffrey Goldberg, a journalist from the Atlantic, to that group. Chat on Signal. A damning new report is being released from the Pentagon's inspector general that is the top watchdog at the building that Hegseth is in charge of running. That report says that Pete Hegseth shared information in that Signal chat, information that put mission operations and servicemen and women at risk about a pending military operation in Yemen that took place in March of this year. The Defense Department's Inspector general finds that while the mission ultimately was not jeopardized, Pete Hegseth violated his department's own policies when he used Signal, a commercial messaging app that is not approved for sharing classified information. The Inspector general's report, scheduled to be published on Thursday morning, was described at the Atlantic by numerous U.S. officials familiar with its findings. Now, while that controversy ultimately led to Michael Walz being removed from his position as Donald Trump's first national security adviser, Pete Hegseth and the White House have maintained that he did nothing wrong. The Pentagon's chief spokesperson today called the inspector general report a total exoneration of Hegseth.

Bora Clark (4:12)

It's important to remember that if anybody did this who was not named Pete Hegseth.

Bora Clark (4:19)

Like any of the men and women farther down the chain of command, those men and women would be thrown out of the military and almost certainly face criminal prosecution, maybe even worse. And keep that in mind as we're covering Hegseth in the White House. Throwing people like Admiral Bradley under the bus for an act being described by Democrats and Republicans this week as a, quote, potential war crime. The Atlantic goes on to report this. Quote, current and former government officials have told us that if lower level employees shared such sensitive information on a commercial platform, they would certainly be fired and possibly prosecuted. The inspector general's conclusions seem likely to create an impression among the military rank and file that there are two sets of rules. One, one for the Defense Department's presidentially appointed leadership and one for everybody else. And that is not a surprise in Pete Hegseth's Pentagon. It is the culture he's ushered in. It is what we on the outside, the American people, have come to expect. In his nearly 10 month tenure running the largest military on the planet. But it's also an embarrassment not only for the nation, but that the military serves for the men and women in it and for its commander in chief. Frankly, Donald Trump calls into question just how much more embarrassment Donald Trump is going to tolerate from his hand picked, bipartisanly opposed secretary of defense. It's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Shane Harris is here. He covers national security and intel for the Atlantic. He is bylined on the reporting about the IG Report we just read from. With me at the table for the hour, my friend and colleague, senior political analyst, contribut host on Pod Save America, host of the podcast Runaway Country, Alex Wagner is here. Shane, take us through what you know about the IG Report.

Shane Harris (6:13)

Well, this has been some time in the making. We know that we'd anticipated even a few months ago, but it's now finally going to be published on Thursday. And people who've read it say that it is pretty unambiguous about what Pete Hagseth did, that the information that he shared in that Signal chat, which to remind everyone, included very detailed information about the time that US Warplanes would be over their targets in Yemen, that if that information had fallen into the wrong hands, it could have jeopardized the lives of US Forces as well as the success of the mission. And, you know, I think this is important to repeat because from the beginning, the real issue with the way this entire Signal chat was set up is that the members of that group obviously did not seem to know that they had included an outsider, namely my editor, Jeff Goldberg, in that group. And it would have been trivially easy to add anyone else to that group as well. So from the very beginning, the security of this channel that was talking about an active military operation had effectively been compromised. And I think that that's really a key finding of the Inspector general report to say, look, the information, had it fallen into the wrong hands, could have been, you know, very significant losses could have occurred. And the other is that the report is clear as saying that the information was classified at the time that Secretary Hegseth received it. And this is really important, too. Information like battle plans and operations of the kind that he shared are presumptively classified because of the damage that could be done if they were exposed. Administration officials, including Secretary Hegseth, have long said the information was not classified. So this is going to raise some really interesting questions when we see the full report. Did he declassify it before he put it in that channel? Did he affirmatively take steps to do so. What is clear from people who've read it is that the IG says the information was classified when Pete Hegseth received it from US Central Command, which has responsibility for the military operation. So, you know, ultimately I think this is a real affirmation of what we originally reported, which was that this was an extraordinary security breach and that the secretary should not have been handling this information in the way that he did.

Bora Clark (8:32)

I mean Shane, I understand that we are.

Bora Clark (8:37)

It. Certainly as a journalist, it's part of a story you're covering. It is possible that he will say as an excuse, I declassified it before I put it in the chat, but I'm going to read them to you and then I think your body of reporting and our ability to use our common sense will make clear that these were not unclassified messages, even if he is going to retroactively say he declassified them. 11:44am Eastern Time, Pete Hegseth posted in the signal chat at an all caps quote team update. The text beneath this began quote time now 11:44 Eastern Time. The weather is favorable. I just confirmed with centcom we are a go for mission launch. Centcom, or Central Command is the military's combatant command for the Middle East. The HEGSETH Text continues. 12:15 Eastern Time F18s launch first strike package 13:45. So 145 trigger based F18 first strike window starts. Target terrorists is at his known location so should be on time. Also strike drones launch. I'm going to keep reading, but I'm going to stop here. In all of your years, is there any example you've ever covered where a military operation targeting a known terrorist location was declassified before it was communicated with other heads of national security agencies?

Shane Harris (10:00)

Never. And there would be no need to do so. Those people who he was sharing that with all have the highest level security clearances. So why would he need to be declassifying information to share it with, for instance, the CIA director who was also in that chat, or the national security advisor, I mean Pete Hegseth when he's sharing this, does not know that Jeffrey Goldberg, who does not have a security clearance, we should emphasize, was in that room. So you know, if he is going to make an argument and we're going to see, I guess what his statement is when the full report comes out that he declassified at the time. My question is why? Why would you need to if this is operational information that you're sharing with the CIA director, the national security adviser People of that level, there's no need to declassify it. They're allowed to see classified information. So something about this doesn't really quite wash in the sequencing, which is I would think of why it's important to kind of come back to this IG finding that it was properly classified in the first place. If Hegseth is going to say now, well, I declassified it, that seems sort of to me like a retroactive excuse that he would not have made had this information not become public as it did.

Bora Clark (11:11)

Let me read you a few other of the texts that he sent. More F18s launched the second strike package. 215 strike drones on target. This is when the first bombs will definitely drop. Pending earlier trigger based targets. 15:36 F18 second strike starts also for sea based Tomahawks launched. We are currently clean on OPSEC. That is operational security. Godspeed to our warriors. It is a real time TikTok of an ongoing, of a military operation as it's happening in real time. And just I don't mean to be dense here, but is there any example you've ever covered of an ongoing military operation being declassified in the moment of it happening?

Shane Harris (12:03)

No, not being declassified. I mean, there are plenty of examples of senior level officials sharing information in real time. I'm not aware of the Secretary of Defense sharing them with so many other people in the cabinet this way, but if they were in the situation room or if he were briefing people, it's conceivable this is the kind of information that's kept in a very tight circle of people and shared on secure government communication systems for a reason. While Pete Hegseth is sharing that information in that signal chat, Jeffrey Goldberg, as he's reported, was sitting in his car watching it come across onto his phone. I mean, it really gives you a sense of just how dramatic the breach was here, that this information in real time, as you say, was being broadcast out to a civilian. You know, and I've said this before, had, you know, had this ended up with a much less scrupulous journalist, somebody could have tweeted this in real time. Somebody might have thought, hey, I've got a great scoop. I'll just go ahead and write the story now about a bombing operation that's about to begin in Yemen. We obviously did not do that in our earlier reporting. We detail how we handled it. But that's the risk here, is that he's sharing this information in real time. If that has become known to the Houthis who have surface to air missiles who have air defense. The lives of those pilots would immediately be put at risk because they would know the Houthis would know that the attack was coming and when it was coming.

Bora Clark (13:28)

It's extraordinary that journalists and editors at the Atlantic had more concerns about the U.S. military's operational security than the secretary of defense did on that day. Shane, thank you so much for being part of our coverage and for joining us today. I want to bring into our conversation Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego of Arizona. He sits on the Homeland Security Committee and was a Marine combat veteran. He served in Iraq. Thank you for being here with us. Your reaction to what we're learning about this inspector general report?

Senator Ruben Gallego (13:59)

Well, I didn't need the inspector general's report to tell me and to tell the country what, you know, Secretary of Defense was dangerous and put his men in danger. It's not that hard to figure out. While if you're sharing time, location, ordinance and potential targets, you know, where are the particular trajectories that some of these planes could be coming from and the timing and the fact that, you know, Secretary Hecseth couldn't admit that he made a mistake and then tried to go back and say, well, it's not classified. It doesn't matter if it's classified or declassified at any point. The fact is you shared information in such a dangerous way that you could have compromised the mission and compromised men and women, all to appease his little, little fragile soul because he's just trying to make up for the fact that he is way over his head and he's just a TV show host pretending to be the secretary of defense.

Bora Clark (14:50)

When you see this IG report findings.

Bora Clark (14:55)

Start to seep out, the full report will be released on Thursday. And you see the White House for at least the three days that we've all lived through together of this week, very publicly and rather brazenly blaming Admiral Bradley for the strike that is under scrutiny. What do you think the men and women of the military are feeling right now about their secretary of defense and commander in chief?

Senator Ruben Gallego (15:24)

Well, the men and women of the military, the professionals that we so rely on, Democrats, Republicans, independents, I have heard that they are just not exactly trusting the leadership of this man. They think that he is a joke and that he's effectively using our military to help him and help in whatever goal he is, he has. And, you know, we, we were very clear and you've seen the story change this whole week. But many of us that serve the military said what, what they did in off the coast of Venezuela was an illegal act. You should not double tap. It's what we call the military people that are no longer in combat, no longer eluding. And the fact that he first bragged about it, but then backed off from it, and now throwing someone else on the bus shows you that this man is not ready for the job. He's not ready to be Secretary of Defense, and he is potentially putting our national defense at danger.

Bora Clark (16:16)

It's been explained a couple times on this show, and I keep underscoring it, because it feels important that the manual that the military trains from to understand where the line is morally and ethically includes this example of a shipwrecked person on a vessel that's been struck as that is an example. That is the example of where the line lies. And that once someone is shipwrecked, they're rendered defenseless and so they must be rescued. What do you know about Admiral Bradley that squares in your mind with why someone who was one of the first to deploy to Afghanistan after September 11, someone whose record, at least that's public facing, is sterling, how do you think someone with that much experience goes on to violate the exact example that's in the military's own war manual in terms of the thing that you don't do?

Senator Ruben Gallego (17:13)

Listen, this admiral has a lot more experience in combat than I had. You know, as an infantry infantryman with the Marines in Iraq. We saw a lot of combat. But this guy knows and has seen a lot more, and he's faced this same scenario, I bet, just as often as I have, in a personal capacity. And, you know, it is tough. It is tough to be in combat and then have to render aid to the terrorists that were just trying to kill you. But we did it in Iraq. And whatever happened, whatever these men and women that were in these boats, whether they were, you know, narcos or they were cartels or they were fishermen, the reason you stop after they are no longer. After they're no longer a threat is to give it a time and an assessment for number one to actually take in information. Maybe we now discover that they are not actually transporting drugs or the other thing is maybe you want them to understand that it's best to actually give up to the United States instead of trying to fight or fly as fast as possible way. All these things are what this admiral understands. But the most important thing is what Pete did not understand, that he violated not just his oath, but also the true essence of what America is. We are the good guys. We are the good guys. We're not the ones that shoot people after they give up. We are the country that has stood up and said that we want to have the most humane, have humane and civil opportunities when it comes to engaging in war. And he basically has given up that dignity that we have held through many, many wars because, again, he's trying to fulfill some of the, some, some small hole that he needs to fill.

Bora Clark (18:49)

Senator Ruben Gallego, thank you so much for being part of our, our coverage today. We appreciate you.

Bora Clark (18:56)

Alex. Whatever else happens, the damage and the stain that they put onto the military that we're even asking these questions. It is hard for these sentences to come out of my mouth and to see Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill who didn't come together.

Bora Clark (19:14)

To oppose anything that's happened over the last 11 months, but who have come together now to investigate whether a possible war crime took place and then to watch the White House press secretary blame. Admiral Bradley has been a stunning turn even for this group.

Alex Wagner (19:28)

The bar is already so low, we didn't think he could get further down into the ground. I'm really struck by, I think, the symmetry of behavior between what he did in Signalgate and what he did with what I guess is being called the double tap strike, AKA a potential war crime in the Caribbean, the sharing of classified information. First of all, I highly doubt in the minutes between the strike and when Pete Hegseth got the information, he declassified it. Unless he, like Donald Trump in his Mar? A Lago documents, declassified it with his.

Bora Clark (19:57)

Mind, in his brain.

Alex Wagner (19:59)

And nor did he keep the record of correspondence when he shared the same war plans with his brother and his wife and his personal lawyer. This is the behavior of someone who, like, it's the text version, I guess, of wearing a T shirt that says, look at me, I'm the Secretary of Defense. Look at the information. Information that I have access to. He's so excited. It's like a diabetic being released into a chocolate shop, right? Like, look what I have. Look what I have access to that he has to share it with a people that already have the information and know exactly what to do with it, and his family to try and impress upon them. I think, you know, his seniority and his accomplishment, when in reality this is effectively a men's grooming expert who's cosplaying as a Secretary of Defense. He has no qualifications for this job. His interests in American security, national security, are effectively skin deep. Then he goes and orders what is a potential war crime and his excuse for the Caribbean boat strike is that he was out of the room when the second strike occurred, which is maybe the worst excuse you could possibly have. He's so actually uninterested in the outcome of a deadly strike that killed 11 people that he leaves before it's over. I mean, all of this paints a picture of someone who's just so utterly unserious and utterly, utterly unqualified. I know that right now the White House position and the Potemkin Village over at the Department of Defense is to deny that any of this is incriminating or an indictment of his character, but I don't know. Pete Hegseth has made a lot of really, really bad mistakes. And Donald Trump is not known for his loyalty. And I do think that I would believe, and maybe it's naive of me, but I think his days at the Pentagon are limited.

Bora Clark (21:40)

Well, Trump already said I wouldn't have approved of the second strike and we.

Alex Wagner (21:44)

Shouldn'T be using signal.

Bora Clark (21:46)

Right. If he even knows what it is. No, it is extraordinary. And I always come back to his confirmation, which wasn't a sure thing. I mean, Donald Trump was reported to have been flirting with Ron DeSantis. I mean, that's a gross sentence to say out loud, too, as a backup in case Hegseth didn't make it and.

Alex Wagner (22:04)

Yet seems like a viable alternative compared to the man Barbie at the I mean, it's just, it's all so shameful that this is even a chapter we.

Bora Clark (22:11)

Have to talk about and such a burden to place on the men and women of the military to even have the scrutiny. All right, after the break for us, how a small special election in Tennessee became the political story of the night last night and exposed another political vulnerability for dozens of House Republicans and potentially sending shockwaves to the balance of power. And Washington, Washington, D.C. also ahead, Donald Trump's crackdown on immigration continues, as well as the not just gross but dangerous rhetoric he has started using publicly and going after communities already here living legally in this country. We'll talk about that later in the broadcast. Back to Pete Hegseth and the ever changing explanations that led to the deadly and potentially illegal boat strikes in the Caribbean. All those stories and more when Deadly White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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Bora Clark (24:23)

The man who once implored the American people to disregard what they can see with their own eyes and read is today begging them to dismiss and disbelieve what they feel and experience as well. Donald Trump's latest reality bending endeavor, which we'll share with you in a second, is especially shameless this afternoon given what the rest of us witnessed late yesterday in Tennessee, a single frame snapshot of what appears to be a tidal shift in the public mood and support for MAGA Republicans. Yes, Republican Matt Van Epps held off Democrat Acton Benn in that state's 7th congressional district. As expected, it's a hugely gerrymandered state and a hugely gerrymandered seat. And yet the actual result of the special election is still sending a jolt up and down the spine of the Republican Party today. Why? Well, because yesterday's nine point margin of victory is, practically speaking in this gerrymandered seat, razor thin. This district went for Donald Trump by 22 points barely one year ago and Republicans had to spend millions of dollars on this race just to deliver that nine point win. It brings us back to where we started. Both candidates in Tennessee made affordability and the cost of living a top issue in the contest. And yet Donald Trump, who just this weekend declared in all caps, quote, I am the affordability president, had this to say yesterday.

Donald Trump (25:52)

This is fake narrative that the Democrats talk about affordability. They just say the word. It doesn't mean anything to anybody. They just say it affordability. I inherited the worst inflation in history. There was no affordability. Nobody could afford anything. The prices were massively high. The word affordability is a Con job by the Democrats. The word third affordability is a Democrat scam. They say it and then they go on to the next subject and everyone thinks, oh, they had lower prices, no, they had the worst inflation in the history of our country.

Bora Clark (26:28)

Nobody could afford anything. That's why I knocked down the White House, that's why I took a jet from Qatar and some crypto money. I want to bring in former senior advisor to President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris. The former mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landers here, he's now the co chair of American Bridge, 21st century. Alex is with us as well, Mr. Mayor. I guess that's what I know I'm losing sounds like from Donald Trump.

Donald Trump (26:56)

Well, Donald Trump won the election because he promised the American people that he would fix their number one problem, which is that things cost too much and they were out of control and that working class people were having to choose between paying the rent, paying for gas, paying for their kids tuition and they couldn't make ends meet. This is Donald Trump's economy and Donald Trump has completely and totally failed to deliver that. All of those things that Donald Trump just said are provably false. Costs are actually up, they're up high and the American people know that. So in this economy, what you basically have seen in the last round of elections a month ago and then yesterday is that working class people know that Donald Trump is not telling them the truth and they're sending a very loud and clear message. And even though we lost that race last night and a loss is a loss, let me be clear about that. When you close a 22 point gap and you knock it down by somewhere between 10 and 13 points, it does not bode well for Donald Trump and the future. But this is Donald Trump's America. Whether it's national security, whether it's the economy, whether it's immigration, most American citizens do not like what they see and they think that the President has failed them. And I completely agree with him.

Bora Clark (28:09)

Mitch, have you looked at what 13 points looks like laid over the map? I mean, have you done sort of your own back of napkin look at what's competitive?

Donald Trump (28:17)

Well, let me just say that that's a huge number in a, in a red district in the south. That is a big, big number. And what it means is if that holds, and that's a big if because we're far away from it and we have to learn the right lessons. But that means the Democrats will absolutely take back the House and if all of the Senate seats were up at the time they would take back the Senate too. The bigger point of this, I don't want to get too much into the horse ra that working class folks that are in the middle of this country are fed up with Donald Trump. They're fed up. They think he's chaotic, they think he's incompetent, they think he's corrupt and they think he's cruel and they don't like that. Americans are tough, but they're not cruel. They do not like what they see in their commander in chief and allowing Pete Hegseth to basically continue to be a train wreck and put our American soldiers at risk. They don't like the tariffs and the imposition that those are having on their day to day lives. They want to close the border and they want to go after criminals, but they absolutely don't want to put Maw Maw and Pawpaw in a hole with no due process of law and then tell them that you're actually doing them a favor. That is not what they want. And this country is headed in the wrong direction fast. The American people know it. And they said it last month in New Jersey, they said it in Pennsylvania, they said it in Georgia. And then last night they actually spoke very loudly in Tennessee and said, you better wake the hell up because we're coming for you.

Bora Clark (29:34)

Trump has a reputation as a shape shifter. There is no shape to shift your way out of this one. He's been revealed as a liar on the Epstein files. That might have been the keyhole. And through that open door came revelations about all the other lies. And you've got Joe Rogan and Andrew Schultz saying, you know, what do they think we are, babies? Yes, they thought you were babies. They thought you were as gullible as the Republicans in the House and Senate and that you would just go along with everything. But on the other side of that is a lived experience that now has ding, ding, ding. Donald Trump doesn't give a about your personal economy. And that is abundantly clear by the grift. I mean everywhere you turn over the, whatever it is, the Rubik's Cube, Trump has a bigger political problem.

Alex Wagner (30:25)

Yeah, I mean, I think this is, I mean, I do think this is the biggest one for him. Just in terms of electoral politics. Every accusation is an admission.

Bora Clark (30:34)

Right.

Alex Wagner (30:34)

We've learned that through multiple years of this man and during that cabinet meeting, slash cabinet nap, where he fell asleep several times, he said, this is, you know, they don't know what the word affordability means. It doesn't mean Anything. He doesn't know what the word affordability means. He also bragged about how much money the federal government is making, billions of dollars from these tariffs. That case is going to the Supreme Court, Nicole. And major US Companies who've borne the brunt of these tariffs, like Revlon and Costco, are this week filing preemptive lawsuits in expectation of the Supreme Court saying, Donald Trump, you can't impose these tariffs. All that money that Donald Trump thinks is going to the federal government is going to be returned to the companies that have had to pay it. And in the meantime, those coffers will dry up. The companies that have been bearing the brunt of Trump's ridiculous economic policy policy have slowed hiring, they've raised prices, they've rejiggered their supply chains. All of this stuff has a very profound effect on the American consumer, whether in the job market or actually purchasing power. I mean, this is the con job is the idea that Donald Trump ever wanted to do anything to help the American people and now they're seeing it. And you can tell them over and over again that this is the Democrats fabrication. People know how much stuff costs. The Christmas season is upon us and people do not understand the sticker price in a more emotional way than they do during the holidays. Good luck to that, ma'. Am.

Bora Clark (32:04)

It's brutal. And everything is more expensive. And I think Donald Trump also doesn't shop. So he doesn't understand that you can see what you paid for the same things. A lot of people buy things online, a lot of people buy things on Amazon and people know what they paid for things. It can't be. What does he do? Hoaxified. Mr. Mayor, thank you for joining us. To be continued. Alex sticks around a little bit longer with us after the break for us will turn to Donald Trump's immigration crackdown as it rages on, his demonizing of other human beings, his dangerous worlds, his latest targets. We'll tell you about it.

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Bora Clark (34:15)

As the Trump administration seems to crack down and snuff out any legal immigration pathway, Donald Trump hasn't just been ramping up on his verbal attacks against immigrants and immigration. He's been engaging in outright bigoted rants against human beings, immigrants themselves. Just before his administration announced that it would pause green card and citizenship applications from 19 countries, Donald Trump went on a public tirade. He called residents of one of those countries Somalia, quote, garbage. Watch.

Donald Trump (34:50)

I don't want them in our country. I'll be honest with you, okay? Somebody would say, oh, that's not politically correct. I don't care. I don't want them in our country. Their country is no good for a reason. Their country stinks and we don't want them in our country. These aren't people that work. These aren't people that say, let's go. Come on, let's make this place great. These are people that do nothing but complain. They complain, and from where they came from, they got nothing. You know, they came from paradise and they said, this isn't paradise. But when they come from hell and they complain and do nothing, but.

Donald Trump (35:28)

We don't want them in our country, let them go back to where they came from and fix it.

Shane Harris (35:35)

Thank you very much, everybody.

Bora Clark (35:39)

I'd love to see who clapped at that. Right?

Bora Clark (35:44)

And if we're going to get rid of the complainers, sign me up. We're going to bring into our coverage Alan Orr. He's an immigration attorney and the former president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association. Alex is still here as well I know there is, and I see it with the coverage, or lack thereof, of his 150 tweets overnight, which, if it was a celebrity or an athlete, entertainment media would be focused on it for days. Sports media would be focused on, you know, athletes and their mental health for days. Trump says stuff like that, and.

Bora Clark (36:18)

It'S so typical of him. And it's just a. We call it a mask off moment or a tirade, but it is deeply unsettling and is probably terrifying. If you're an immigrant from Somalia right now.

Bora Clark (36:35)

What do we do to make people feel safe while he's president?

Alan Orr (36:39)

Well, I think the first thing we do is recognize that that rhetoric is trash. That's where the trash is. It's very un American, and it's very unpatriotic. And it also undermines our national security. How do people become rationalized or radicalized when you other them? And he's othering a whole group of people who are United States citizens that were born here. And that's the way you move people away from the fold and also claiming to have a country. This is our who here. Who is here is part of this society and should not be sort of forced out of the system. But once again, these statements also radicalize and put discrimination into immigration. And that's really the plan of sort of sorting out different nationalities to say this entire group of individuals have a problem. I can remember not too long ago there was a statement made about Republicans and they all said, oh, my God, don't say this about a whole group of people. But he continually does this about a group of individuals and specifically immigrants, which are the foundation of our country, even his own family. If we look one, two to three generations behind every person in this country, there's an immigrant.

Bora Clark (37:34)

Well, and his. His problem is clearly, in the first term, he called them whole countries. I mean, he's clearly targeting people of color and communities of color. And I wonder how you represent so many people at one time being targeted by the President of the United States.

Alan Orr (37:53)

So, unfortunately, this targeting of people of color isn't new to this society, is something that we need to resolve and sort of move forward from of this blaming of other and specifically black and brown people. And the way that I stand up in our community for that is making sure they know their rights. We may survive this presidency by knowing our rights and being effective in ensuring that these individuals know that just because the president says something doesn't automatically remove them from the ability to have the Constitution. The Constitution is sort of drafted and it is the text that we will provide our clients with the rights by. And it is not based on color or nationality. And as long as we stay in that text, we can isolate what the President's doing because Congress will not step up and do what they need to do.

Bora Clark (38:27)

But how do you do that if his own Secretary of Homeland Security has shown a willingness to defy a judge's order?

Alan Orr (38:32)

So, I mean, there's a battle between ice, the federal court, the branches of our government are at war. And it is time for Congress to step up and resolve that war. But in between that, it is also time for the people to say, as we saw in North Carolina, we saw communities stand up and turn away from that issue. So we need people to stand in the gap to say, this is not allowed here, this is not who we are, this is not what we stand for. Because this constant saying that they're criminals, they're rapists, and the numbers don't support that. Where's the evidence and the analysis to go behind and say that these are the problems? So yes, it's difficult, it's always been difficult for minorities in this country. Small percentages of people, no matter where you take them from, either social groups or nationalities who are being blamed for things of a greater class of individuals to stand up. But our society, our Constitution can stand it. And our courts have been there. And while they're overrunning through these courts, the thing that I want to remind people is that lawyers will lose their law degrees and that the President won't be president for always. And justice will find you no matter where you are after this administration.

Bora Clark (39:28)

Wow. It's also one of a number of issues where he's deeply unpopular even with self described Republicans. We'll talk about that. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be right back on the other side.

Bora Clark (39:45)

We're back with Alan and Alex. I mean, Alex, the reality of this is that it doesn't get the coverage that it deserves because of the expanse of it. Right. We can focus in and try to tell one story of the terror. There is a six year old child that is right now lost.

Bora Clark (40:04)

Separated and lost child separation was such a scandal that it's actually, I think the only policy that Donald Trump himself reversed himself on in a first term.

Alex Wagner (40:13)

Yeah.

Bora Clark (40:14)

They're doing that on such a scale across the country from coast to coast, targeting so many communities, sweeping up American citizens. Very few of the people being rounded up are actually guilty of any crimes. Yeah, I mean there are some and that's where the public support is. But the vast majority of people that are deporting have committed the civil offense of being here illegally. And some of them. Not even that.

Alex Wagner (40:36)

Yeah, some of them are American citizens. I think what's really important to contextualize this in the big picture, which is the White House is embracing ethnic cleansing. I mean, that is what is happening here. This is, is make America white again. And it's sort of by any means necessary. It's under the auspices of immigration reform and getting the, you know, the garbage out. But it's really about targeting black and brown people and allowing white Africaners into the country. I mean, that's literally. Those are the priorities of this administration. And they'll find any way in which to do it, whether it is constitutional or not, whether it means gutting the immigration system and firing the judges who adjudicate this stuff and installing people who are more likely to just kick people out en masse, whether it is, you know, bringing in under qualified ICE agents to go and raid cities and communities. They're going to New Orleans today, Charlotte another day. They target black and brown blue cities and the residents in there. And if you're not swept up in the dragnet, they will terrorize you. They will change the way you go to church, how you look over your shoulder when you go to work. This is a wholesale reinvention of the American promise, and it is a redefinition of what it means to be an American. And the answer from this administration is to be an American and to belong in this country, you need to be white. I mean, 19 countries is a lot of countries, and they are predominantly black and brown countries that the administration is stopping immigration from. And they are some of the most dangerous and difficult places to live. The idea of this country as it is made physical in the Statue of Liberty is to give the huddled masses a safe haven. Trump has torn that up. That promise, which is foundational to our country, is something this White House has thrown on the ground and treated in turn like a piece of garbage. And I think it's really important to understand from a 30,000 foot perspective what he is trying to do to reinvent this country.

Bora Clark (42:28)

Well, what's interesting to me is that people don't like it.

Alex Wagner (42:33)

Yeah.

Bora Clark (42:34)

And for all the fear that we've also covered from law firms and universities tripping over themselves to capitulate, they couldn't capitulate fast enough. More people identify themselves as being members of the no Kings movement. And the first thing that got people out in the streets was protecting their neighbors, protecting their communities. I mean, how do you see the politics laying over this?

Alex Wagner (42:54)

Listen, I think, you know, you and I were talking about in this break, there is some sort of viciousness that undergirds. I think that is probably if Trump has an organizing principle, it's brutality and viciousness and rage. And it's like guys in the narrative of owning the labor. But he likes the cruelty. And that's why I think he's not giving up on immigration, because he likes calling people garbage. He likes talking about countries. He likes seeing people terrified, even if it's not politically acceptable.

Bora Clark (43:18)

Kristi Noem keeps retweeting it and they put it to me. I mean, they do at least want the public to think they enjoy what they see.

Alex Wagner (43:26)

The cruelty is, as Adam Serwer said, the point. And at a point, I mean, it isn't serving him politically. I don't I mean, from an economic standpoint, from a political standpoint, you can't gut this country of millions of people who do some very difficult jobs and expect that it's going to stay as it was. Nor can you take away the cultural import of having a diverse and inclusive country. That's America. You can't change it overnight without real repercussions.

Bora Clark (43:50)

This conversation to be continued. Thank you for being here today. Alex, thank you for your time here today. After the break, Republicans continue to deny Jack Smith the public testimony he is asking for. We'll bring you that reporting next.

Bora Clark (44:10)

Today, the House Judiciary Committee under the leadership of Congressman Jim Jordan, subpoenaed Jack Smith to testify behind closed doors on December 17th. Jack Smith, for his part, has said again and again that he wants to testify, but he wants to do so publicly so the American people can hear what he has to say. In response to the subpoena, Jack Smith's lawyer said this in a statement, quote, we are disappointed that our offer was rejected and that the American people will be denied the opportunity to hear directly from Jack on these topics. Jack looks forward to meeting with the committee later this month to discuss his work and clarify the various misconceptions about his investigation. We'll stay on top of that story after the break. For us, how long can Pete Hegseth withstand the mounting bipartisan criticism of him over those boat strikes in the Caribbean? Much more news straight ahead. Don't go anywhere.

Bora Clark (45:08)

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Alex Wagner (45:30)

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