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Michelle Norris
Oh no.
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- [00:48]
Host Nicole Wallace
The American people are basically telling the
- [00:49]
Michelle Norris
President that they are not okay with any of this.
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News Announcer
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47.
- [01:04]
Barack Obama
The Voting Rights act sections 2, 4, 5 were the cornerstones of providing political power to African Americans that then led to a whole range of other steps to make America more just and more equal. It was the cornerstone and the culmination of years of struggle, blood, sweat, tears, in some cases deaths. I might not be here as President had it not been for those who courageously helped to pass the Voting Rights
- [01:49]
Jimmy Kimmel
Act,
- [01:52]
Host Nicole Wallace
I might not be here as President. Wow. Hi again everyone. It's five o' clock in New York. That was President former President Barack Obama back in 2013, reacting then in real time to the Supreme Court's gutting of the Voting Rights Act. Today, the court went further than they did that day in a likely blow to Democrats representation in Congress and the complete and utter perversion of the original purpose of the Voting Rights Act. The nation's highest court told states that they can almost never consider race when drawing congressional maps to comply with Section 2 of the Voting Rights act and striking down Louisiana's congressional maps due to a majority black district, the decision was 6:3 along ideological lines with all three liberal justices dissenting. Justice Samuel Alito, writing for the majority, said this, quote, compliance with Section 2 of the Voting Rights act could not justify the state senior use of race based redistricting here. The state's attempt to satisfy the district court's ruling, although understandable, was an unconstitutional racial gerrymander. While the court technically stopped short of overturning this key provision entirely. In a scathing dissent, Justice Elena Kagan called it demolished and said that today's majority opinion amounts to, quote, the largest reduction to minority representation since the end of Reconstruction. Let that sink in here's more from her dissent. Under the Court's new view of Section two, a state can, without legal consequence, systematically dilute minority citizens voting power. Of course, the majority does not announce today's holding that way. Its opinion is understated, even antiseptic. The majority claims only to be, quote, updating our section 2 law as though through a few technical tweaks. But in fact, those quote, updates eviscerate the law. Today's ruling is part of a set for over a decade this court has had its sights set on the Voting Rights Act. Today, the Last piece, section 2 is applied to redistricting. It greenlights redistricting plans that will disable minority communities in Louisiana and across the nation from electing as majority communities can, quote, representatives of their choice. The Voting Rights act is, or now more accurately, was, one of the most consequential efficacy and amply justified exercises of federal legislative power in our nation's history. It was born of the literal blood of Union soldiers and civil rights marchers. It ushered in awe inspiring change, bringing this nation closer to fulfilling the ideals of democracy and racial equality. And it has been repeatedly and overwhelmingly reauthorized by the people's representatives in Congress. Only they have the right to say it is no longer needed, not members of this Court. I dissent, I dissent then from this latest chapter in the majority's now completed demolition of the Voting Rights Act. As Justice Kagan notes in her dissent, today's ruling will no doubt set off a redistricting feeding frenzy among red states ahead of November's midterms. On that, the New York Times reports this quote, coming in the middle of the primary calendar, there were still multiple states that could draw new maps. Citing Wednesday's decision. Republicans in Florida moved swiftly after the announcement the state's House approving a new map on Wednesday morning. Over in Tennessee, Republican Senator Marsha Blackburn has already come out and called for her state's assembly to reconvene and eliminate a majority black congressional district in Memphis, pledging to, quote, do everything I can to make this map a reality. Discrimination and chaos once again unleashed by the nation's highest court is where we begin the hour. Senior contributing editor Michelle Norris is back with us. With me at the table, former attorney for the Democracy Program at the Brennan center for justice at NYU School of Law, James Sample is here. He is currently a law professor at Hofstra University. Also joining us, Princeton University professor, political analyst. Our friend Eddie Glad is here. Take us through how this was decided and why.
- [06:17]
James Sample
The way I would frame this is that the Voting Rights act is a three legged stool. In 2013, the Supreme Court struck down the before portion pre clearance for states that had jurisdictions that had a history of discrimination in voting practices. When they took away the before, they said, well, at least you'll have the after. You still have the after. Section 2 litigation in 2021, in a decision called Brnovich, they struck down the after and all that was left was Section two redistricting. Today, that went away. So you now still technically have the Voting Rights act on the books, but all three legs of the stool are gone. And while it is technically still a law in existence, it is no longer being interpreted. It has been dismantled.
- [07:11]
Host Nicole Wallace
Michel, you know, we play President Obama because, well, one, he explains things better than just about anyone. But two, it's so, you know, I think that Trump benefits when the news feels fast and furious, but this is really one of those stories that everyone should sort of sit down, put the phone down, resist the doom scrolling, and just let it sink in that when just a piece of this was dismantled in 2013, President Barack Obama said, quote, I might not be here without this law.
- [07:46]
Michelle Norris
Well, this is a blow to the Voting Rights Act. It means that people of color have rights that are spelled out in the Constitution. So they have rights on paper, but they do not have those rights. In fact, they have lost the remedy to go back and try to adjudicate something if their rights are violated. And this has been, you talked about the fast news cycle. I mean, this has been a slow death of the vra, the Voting Rights act, through a number of cases. They've just chipped away on one side or I love the description that it is a three legged stool that's standing on nothing right now. And what it is allows, it allows legislatures to go in or other partisan actors to go in and draw districts as they want. And there was another case that you didn't mention, Abbott B. Perez in 2018, which was, you know, another one of the efforts to chip away at the Voting Rights act, where the court ruled that legislatures were entitled to the presumption of good faith. And it's really hard to assume that they can have good faith right now when we have a president in office who is strongly advocating for redrawing maps to basically maintain Republican rule. And the hypocrisy in all of this is just to swallow, you know, the idea that you cannot use race as criteria in drawing legislative districts, but you can use race as criteria when you are targeting people for immigration in immigration crackdowns that you can't use race in some cases, but you can use it in others. And you see that over and over and over again. And the thing that you take away from this is that we are no longer a country that is committed to a multiracial democracy. And we talk about this as something like a remedy that is fixing something that happened a long, long time ago in the Wayback Machine, as if we're looking at something that is, you know, ancient history. And it's not, you know, I'm older than the Voting Rights act, and I don't like talking about my age on television. But I'll just say that. So to make the point, you know, that this is not ancient history. My father fought in World War II, fought for democracy overseas, and came back to the state of Alabama and was not able to participate in democracy back home because America was not ready to give that to him. And that's not ancient history. And when Roberts dismantles this and talks about a Voting Rights act that has outlived its usefulness, that's just too short a shelf life for fairness. That's just too short a shelf life for something that is a right that is spelled out in the Constitution. And it just shows that we as a nation seem to be more committed to supremacy than democracy.
- [10:30]
Host Nicole Wallace
I have never heard you speak this personally. I'm going to press you for more, but I want to play for you, Senator Raphael Warnock first.
- [10:41]
Senator Raphael Warnock
John Lewis, who was my parishioner, died fighting for voice in our democracy. Amelia Boynton was beaten and gassed on Bloody Sunday. So many martyrs. And this decision today by the Supreme Court is a slap in the face of those who work so hard to push our country closer to its ideals. The answer to this assault on democracy, quite frankly, is more democracy. It's ordinary people standing up right now, not only committing to voting, but registering other voters, reaching out to their state legislature, pushing hard against the kind of tricks that we are seeing.
- [11:37]
Host Nicole Wallace
This is one of those weeks where I kind of anchor with a lump in my throat, right, to watch all these things that you think the country holds dear destroyed. But the thing about Senator Warnock's first line is he talks about voice. He says, john Lewis, who was my parishioner, died fighting for voice in our democracy. And that's what you're talking about. What is it about? Destroying people's voices, silencing dissent, silencing expression of political opinions, and presupposing that if anyone of color, if anyone had the access to vote, they would never vote Republican. I Mean, why is it so out in the open and interconnected that the Republican position is voter suppression?
- [12:31]
Michelle Norris
Well, you know, because it's. If you think about our history in America and if you understand America as we have all lived in this country, and if you look at how minorities have been treated in America, you would be reasonably concerned about becoming one. And so people try to hold onto majority status. Power doesn't give up anything without a vacuum. And so what you see here is a party. And you know, this is. It's important to note that this ruling came, you know, fell along party lines. And if you even take a set aside what's happening in the Supreme Court and contrast that to what's happening in the Republican Party, there is an effort to make sure that they hold onto power almost at this point by any means. And so I love what Reverend Warnock said is that the way to defend democracy is with democracy. And that is what our ancestors have done in the past. You know, they were playing on. They were not playing on a level playing field. They were facing mountains that were increasingly steep and craggy. And they just said, game on. If this is what we have to do, this is what we will do. And that's the attitude that people need to face now, to show up, to register, to show up, to participate in their communities. It is not a time to put down your bucket and say, well, this isn't fair. And, you know, and that's that. No, just the opposite is now required. And what you're probably going to see is, is a lot more lawsuits because there's a lot of confusion. This is a case that came out of Louisiana. Louisiana was supposed to have a primary on May. I think it was May 18th. Voting starts this Saturday. That is now thrown into confusion. There will be all kinds of lawsuits. So this will be something that will continue to be fought on several levels. But I do agree with Reverend Warnock. The best thing that people can do if they are concerned about American democracy is to not just defend it, not just talk about it, but participate in it every time you have, not just in presidential elections, not just in midterms, but, you know, if you have a chance to vote for a dog catcher in your community, show up. Because that's what democracy. Democracy needs that kind of oxygen right now if it is going to survive.
- [14:31]
Host Nicole Wallace
Are we up for that, Eddie?
- [14:34]
Eddie Glaude
I pray that we are. You know, there's an important addendum to that formulation. Democracy, you know, best cure for the ills of democracy is more democracy. John Dewey would add that you can't just simply repeat the same machinery, though. Something has to fundamentally change if there's going to be some transformation. Look, we know the impact.
- [14:52]
Host Nicole Wallace
Like what? Like a total change in the model to go from 40%. Orban is gone. Not because they finally tweaked the message, but because 71% of the country participated.
- [15:03]
Eddie Glaude
Exactly. We have to change some of the underlying elements of how we function as a society. Right. We're going to have to address those things that really gum up the way in which we do democracy in this country. And that that takes us back to the beginnings in so many ways. But look, we know what's going to happen. We know that this is going to have an implication. This has serious implications for the Congressional Black Caucus. We know that this is going to have serious implications for majority black state legislatures districts. We know it's going to have an impact across the board for how black folk are represented. So we need to understand this. Look, I'm trying to keep myself calm here at Nicole.
- [15:41]
Host Nicole Wallace
Why?
- [15:42]
Eddie Glaude
Because I'm really upset.
- [15:44]
Host Nicole Wallace
That's okay.
- [15:45]
Eddie Glaude
You get tired of people playing fast and loose with your dead. And it was triggered by Obama. You know how many dead people are in the bottom of rivers in Mississippi because they tried to vote? How many dead folk.
- [16:00]
Oliver Darcy
Right.
- [16:00]
Eddie Glaude
Folk who have wounds because of this. And here we are in this moment in the country's history and we have to deal with this again. You see what I mean? So you think about the glorious revolution, our glorious revolution that produced the Constitution. The court's constraint restrained it, limited Dred Scott, doesn't extend to us. You think about the Civil War, left 600,000 plus dead, get the Reconstruction Amendments. We finally look like we're going to try to become a democracy. What do we get? The courts, slaughterhouse cases, reduces it, rolls it back, and now here we are. We've only been a democracy since 1965, barely. Then 15 years later, Reagan is elected, mobile decision happens.
- [16:47]
Host Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [16:48]
Eddie Glaude
Roberts begins his career right there. And so here we are. It's exhausting. And so, yes, we have to get together, yes, we have to mobilize, yes, we have to organize. But these people play fast and loose with our dead. They play fast and loose with our sacrifices. They think they own freedom, they can give it to us and take it away whenever they want. And they think we're just supposed to sit here and take this. Right. So first of all, I'm just going to express my rage at this decision. And then the second thing we need to do, of course, is to get about the hard work of trying to, trying to salvage this democracy as we've done since the moment we've been on these shores.
- [17:29]
Host Nicole Wallace
Where does the first part of it end and the second part begin?
- [17:38]
Eddie Glaude
The first part of it ends when we admit honestly that racism still occupies the throne of this country. There's nothing about our current days that lead us to believe that should lead us to believe that we are in a post racial world. There's nothing about our days. And then once we admit that, admit of our sins, then perhaps we open up a future for us to be otherwise. But the noble lie isn't noble at all. Racism still occupies the throne of this country. And that's clear to me.
- [18:14]
Host Nicole Wallace
Is it crazy that we're having this conversation in 2026 or is it predictable? Or is it both?
- [18:22]
Eddie Glaude
It's not crazy. This is who we are. We've been saying this to. Oh, my God, Nicole. We've been together for so long, we've been saying this is who we are. It's just we don't tell ourselves the truth. We know it. We've had to endure it. We've had to survive it. We know it.
- [18:38]
James Sample
We see it.
- [18:38]
Eddie Glaude
We saw it. We live it, even when we're in these high places. It's not crazy. It's a feature. It's not a bug.
- [18:53]
Host Nicole Wallace
I'm always glad when you're here. I'm really glad you're here today. Thank you. No one's going anywhere. We have much more on this story. Today's Supreme Court ruling. When we come back, we're going to be joined. We're going to add to this group our friend, voting rights attorney and democracy docket founder Mark Elias. Later in the hour for us. For the second night in a row, Jimmy Kimmel stood up to Donald Trump and Melania, not backing down after Trump and his wife called for Jimmy Kimmel to be fired because he made a joke three days before the White House Correspondent's Dinner. It comes as Donald Trump's hand pick head of the FCC tries to take stations that don't throw the Trump line off the airline. White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today.
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- [20:28]
Host Nicole Wallace
the only person who can make this conversation even more meaningful is our next guest, voting rights attorney, founder of Democracy docket, Mark Elias is here. Mark Elias, the thing about this gang of MAGA people is that they put it all in writing and online and we can see it. So this is the Trump plan from his old campaign manager Brad Pascal. Quote, this is huge right now, this only applies to Louisiana, but states can challenge their congressional maps and with precedent, pick up Republican seats. If states are aggressive, we can see a healthy majority in the House perpetually. So that's their plan as sort of the legal superhero of our times. What is the plan to fight that?
- [21:11]
Mark Elias
Yeah, we are going to fight it. Look, people need to have a couple of hours, few hours now to process this and to recognize it for what it is, which is the court issuing an absolutely indefensible order. It's, it's, it's, it would have been terrible if they had just overruled, overturned the Voting Rights act, but it would have been honest. Instead, what they did was fundamentally cynical. You know, they, you know, Justice Alito claims he's not overturning the Voting Rights Act. He's basically telling black and other minority voters that they can, they can have Voting Rights act districts as long as they vote for Republicans. I mean, it's just, it's a, it's an absolutely disgraceful opinion from that respect. But, but after we get over that, then we need to begin the process, as you say, of fighting back. And, you know, if Republican legislatures think they are going to simply roll through democracy and ignore voting rights that are protected under a variety of theories, racial gerrymandering, intentional discrimination, other constitutional theories under the 14th amendment, then they're mistaken. You know, after Shelby county, you know, Republicans had the same, the same belief that they were just going to run the map. And I wound up bringing litigation that actually gained black and Democratic seats and won four times in the US Supreme Court. So I'm not saying that that's going to happen exactly like this this time. This is a terrible ruling, but we're certainly not going to give up without a fight.
- [22:31]
Host Nicole Wallace
Michel, let me read you what President Obama said in response to today's ruling. Hitting some of the Same points that Mark Elias just did. Quote, today's Supreme Court decision effectively guts a key pillar of the Voting Rights act, freeing state legislatures to gerrymander legislative districts to systematically dilute and weaken the voting power of racial minorities, so long as they do it under the guise of partisanship rather than explicit racial bias. It serves as just one more example of how a majority of the current court seems intent on abandoning its vital role in ensuring equal participation in our democracy and protecting the rights of minority groups against majority overreach. The good news is that such setbacks can be overcome, but that will only happen if citizens across the country who cherish our democratic ideals continue to mobilize and vote in record numbers, not just in the upcoming midterms or high profile races, but in every election and every level. There are, what are they called, the green shoots of that everywhere you look. I interviewed Governor Pritzker yesterday. I mean, in Chicago, they stood up against ICE In Minneapolis, where you and I had many daily conversations, they took that to the next level. Bruce Springsteen is now touring the country, essentially communing with thousands of people about who we are as a country. You know, that we're not perfect, but the country is more good and is worth fighting for. Athletes are now starting with the Olympics or maybe before that. I mean, we do have a whole of culture participation. It just isn't at the levels that'll bring about change. Orban, like throwing out of office. What do you think takes us from these green shoots to a real pro democracy movement with the momentum to go in a different direction?
- [24:28]
Michelle Norris
I actually think we're starting to see that and I think the numbers are big enough to bring about change. And the examples that you cited, you know, with the pushback and the immigration takedown, the recent elections that we've seen across the country, you know, people, the loudest people tend to get the most attention. And in this administration, you know that there's just a open fire hydrant of toxic news that comes at us all the time. And perhaps we don't pay as much attention to the way that those green shoots are growing and taking root. And so I think that there is evidence that we will see people step up and that we will see that kind of, that change. And it's really curious. I think it's worth also noting the partisan nature of the Supreme Court right now. And normally over years, the court has changed and has evolved with the nation. The law is like a river and it changes as it, it flows. And even, you know, we have constitutionals who believe that it's written in stone and it does not change. But it does. You know, I wouldn't be sitting in the seat if not for that. You know, because we've seen, you know, things like rulings like Brown versus Board of Education, you know, that was an example of where the court paid attention to the nation and understood that the nation was changing not just demographically, but hearts and minds were changing, that people's attitudes were changing. This court seems to be inured to that. You know, they don't seem to care what's happening out in the world, except for, you know, in a very narrow portion of America that happens to be a very loud portion of America. And so when this starts with, you know, with the Shelby v. Holder ruling, you know, back in 2013, where Justice Roberts says that we needed strong medicine in the past to remedy past discrimination, but we no longer need that medicine because as I noted that he said that this, you know, has outlived its usefulness. But at the same time, noting that voting discrimination still happens, he admitted that in that ruling in 2013. It still happens now. And so I actually am as angry as I am about this ruling and as disheartened as I am about the Supreme Court and its direction, I actually am fairly optimistic about the American people right now and what we will likely see in the midterms, even with there will be a lot of confusion around the midterms because of this ruling, but I think that we will see people really step up and defend the nation and defend the ideas of the nation and bend the moral arc toward justice, because it only bends if we reach up and grab it. And I think more people are willing
- [26:56]
Mikey Sherrill
to do that today.
- [26:59]
Host Nicole Wallace
Mark Elias, I have had on this show a real collision of optimism, optimistic notes and pessimism. It happened in the first hour in the conversation about DOJ and political retribution. And I wonder if you share some of Michel's optimism or if you see the moves, sort of the whole of government moves and the Supreme Court signals that they're sending pretty clearly as reason for more worry.
- [27:27]
Mark Elias
Look, I am fundamentally worried about this, because the fact is we saw the former FBI director indicted over seashells on a beach. Like, that's a. That's a rough road to travel. Like, if the standard of you are Donald Trump's political opponent and you face indictment because you take it because of a photo that gets posted of seashells on a beach like that is that is a tough way to. To stand up for democracy. I mean, I will like, you know, and, and I know other of your guests will, but, but I'm already seeing the reverberations of that in the last 24 hours of fewer and fewer people willing to pop their head up and stand up against this administration. And yes, it is true that you can, you can at the ballot box, you can defeat voter suppression laws. But you know, at some point, you know, like gerrymandering is gerrymandering for a reason. And yes, at the margins, you know, like Texas, for example, I don't think it'll be a plus five Republican map. I think maybe even plus two map. But it's, but it's still going to, you know, have its impact. And so, you know, we are in for a long, hard fight. Now, where I do see optimism, where I do see green shoots, is that this should be freeing for those of us in the pro democracy movement. We are no longer defending the thing that is being chipped away. We are now in a state where we can say, you know what, we can do better than reenact, react reenacting a law from 1965. We can be more proactive. We could be more protective of minority voting rights. We could be more protective of all Americans voting rights. And so to me, the optimism is that when Democrats take control, and I do believe they will take control, like there is an opportunity now to say that we are not going to restore the Voting Rights act of 1965. We are going to exceed that law with something new built for the current moment. And that is the thing that gives
- [29:19]
Host Nicole Wallace
me optimism and to do it under pro democracy imprimatur and umbrella. You know, if you look at the coalition being assembled in this country, Mark Elias, Michel Norris, thank you so much for joining us today and having this conversation. When we come back, one person who is unafraid to stand up to Donald Trump even in this climate, even in this moment, even in this news cycle, is Jimmy Kimmel. Will show you how Kimmel turned the tables on Trump last night after a short break.
- [29:51]
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Lots of places can expose you to identity theft.
- [29:53]
Michelle Norris
Oh, no.
- [29:55]
LifeLock Advertiser
That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial account, we alert you right away, all through text, phone, email or the LifeLock app. Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com Spotify terms apply home to
- [30:21]
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the Rachel Maddow Show. Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now.
- [30:38]
Jimmy Kimmel
They were married for 63 years and excuse me, if you don't mind, that's a record we won't be able to match. Darling, I'm sorry. Just not going to work out that way.
- [30:52]
Eddie Glaude
Wait a minute.
- [30:54]
Jimmy Kimmel
Did he just make a joke about his death?
- [31:00]
Host Nicole Wallace
My God,
- [31:03]
Jimmy Kimmel
we should be fired for that. Only Donald Trump would demand I be fired for making a joke about his old age and then a day later go out and make a joke about his own old age.
- [31:19]
Host Nicole Wallace
We will watch to see if the FCC looks into that Trump joke. More importantly though, Jimmy Kimmel isn't backing down in this very public feud with Donald Trump and Melania, even as FCC chairman Brendan Carr is picking another fight with Jimmy Kimmel, ABC and its corporate owner, Disney. So far, it's not going very well from the Carr Trump side. Texas Republican Senator Ted Cruz slammed the move by the fcc, telling Punchbowl News this, quote, it is not government's job to censor speech and I do not believe the FCC should operate as the speech police. Disney appears to be standing firm this time. Compared to the last time Jimmy Kimmel came under fire by Carr and the fcc. It could come down to a simple business decision, too. New York Times is reporting, or they reported last fall. Then the wake of taking Jimmy Kimmel off the air for comments he made in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's assassination, the company's streaming services experienced a high level of churn, the entertainment industry's dreaded term for the percentage of subscribers who cancel monthly, which spiked to 8% for Disney and 10% for Hulu. To compare, Netflix's churn stayed the same for a 13th month at just 2%. Joining me at the table, Oliver Darcy. He's the author of the newsletter Status, which covers all things media brilliantly and without fear. James and Eddie are still here. The thing about Kimmel that I noticed, and I noticed this in the seditious six, is that when you fight with Trump, you get very good at fighting with Trump and Kimmel is very good this time around. And Disney seems to be almost steadied by Kimmel's strength.
- [33:01]
Oliver Darcy
It's great that Disney is standing by Kimmel this time around. I mean, last time we all remember they pulled him from air and he was off there in many local markets for some time because the station owners refused to put him back on. This time they're all standing strong and they're all saying letting Jimmy Kimmel go on air and needle the President. And it's really great to see. It's disturbing, I think on the other end to see the federal government with Brendan Carr misusing abusing the FCC's powers to literally chill speech that is critical of the President to try to censor jokes. I mean, you talk about. These guys were talking about snowflakes right back in the day and being triggered. What snowflakes are they. They are literally trying to censor a comedian on air. And that's, I would say, one of the most anti American things you can do.
- [33:48]
Host Nicole Wallace
Well, I mean, they're chilling all speech. I mean, the Comey indictment is about chilling speech. She posted a picture of seashells on a beach and it's the exact same message that members of their Matt Gaetz posted, the same message about several Republicans. I mean, chilling speech and the assault on the First Amendment seems to be so offensive that it is yielding the same kind of MAGA insider defections as the war in Iran.
- [34:14]
Oliver Darcy
Yeah. The good news is though, that I think companies like ABC may have realized that they need to stand strong. As you pointed out, they experienced a significant churn last time they made the wrong move. And this is a big test of.
- [34:27]
Host Nicole Wallace
This is where quitting people just canceled it. People canceled it. People like the brand became toxic because they capitulated to Donald Trump in some way.
- [34:36]
Oliver Darcy
They almost have no choice here. Right. They have to stand by Kimmel because if they don't, their own customers are going to be very mad. And the people that they would maybe, I can't imagine they'd ever went over the mag audience if they even did cancel Kimmel. So there's no real win here for them. The only thing they can do is stand by their comedians. And obviously Donald Trump is being, you know, insane. Like this is, this is, this is crazy. This is, I mean, he makes the most reprehensible remarks and insults people who literally die. I mean, he celebrated the death of Robert Mueller like you know, a couple months ago. This is, that's, this is who he is. And that's not a joke. That's a real thing. He posted and apparently stands by. And so you want him to lecture us on what's acceptable on public airwaves? It's just nonsensical.
- [35:21]
Host Nicole Wallace
What is your sense of which one of these cases will end up being adjudicated in the court of law?
- [35:27]
James Sample
The Comey case will definitely not be adjudicated in a court of law because
- [35:32]
Host Nicole Wallace
you think it'll be dismissed.
- [35:33]
James Sample
It absolutely will be dismissed. The Kimmel case won't be adjudicated in a court of law unless it gets to a court of law. I mean, nowhere near that stage at this point, but realistically, neither one of those scenarios. I mean, let's step back for a second. There is nothing conservative, there's nothing small government about having the FCC or having the FBI. Right. Having the attorney general regulate speech. That is the antithetical of small government. That's exactly what traditional small c conservatives were against.
- [36:11]
Host Nicole Wallace
Well, and the whole thing that animates the conservatives moving to digital media and podcasts is their conversation with their base about free speech. I mean, it's Ted Cruz's whole sort of rationale for existing outside the Senate as some sort of podcaster. It animates a lot of young conservatives. It animated a lot of Charlie Kirk's conversations between him and his followers. I mean, it used to be a thing that the future of the Republican Party was inextricably linked to.
- [36:42]
Eddie Glaude
That's because it was tied to a critique of liberalism.
- [36:45]
Host Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [36:46]
Eddie Glaude
So liberalism constrains or limits or denies free speech of those who are not liberal. And so these people aren't committed to liberalism.
- [36:56]
Host Nicole Wallace
Right. Or free speech.
- [36:58]
Eddie Glaude
Or free speech. So what we're. What we're witnessing is, in effect, it's the substance of a position that is post liberal. And so we keep. We keep assessing them on the terms that they've already rejected. And so that's why we keep missing. We keep speaking past them. They aren't liberal. And once we admit that, then we can't describe them with the liberal term. Because conservatism, small C, functions within our particular political arrangement as a part of liberalism itself. They're post liberal.
- [37:27]
Host Nicole Wallace
They don't believe that, but they're also post constitutional.
- [37:29]
Eddie Glaude
Exactly. Exactly. So when they want free speech for themselves and then try to squelch free speech on the part of others, they're actually revealing their commitments.
- [37:39]
Host Nicole Wallace
All right, this is going to make my head explode. I need to go around one more time. Everyone sticks around. Don't go anywhere. We'll all be right back. Today's really been this clash between the dirty, ugly truth about what we're seeing and what we're covering and not sugarcoating it as a sort of faith project with our own audience and optimism where we see it. And I wonder where you come down. I mean, it is a better sign that Disney isn't sending Kimmel overboard like they did last time. And it is an ominous sign that they're More brazen in attacking things they once held dear, like free speech.
- [38:22]
Oliver Darcy
I mean, I think that the positive sign is that Kimmel's still on the air. And every time I watch him on the air, and he is just going after Donald Trump and putting the Trump Epstein Files TM graphic on the screen, knowing that that's driving the President of the United States crazy in the White House. I think at least the system is. It's under a significant stress, but it seems to be working. And I mean, this is a huge stress test, but so far it is working. Kimmel's still on the air. He's still mocking the president. And I guess that gives me a
- [38:56]
Eddie Glaude
little bit of hope.
- [38:56]
Host Nicole Wallace
Nicole, the other piece I saw, Brian Statler, reported today that the brand damage to capitulation is now viewed as toxic. I sort of waited 15 months for that to be the case. And I wonder what law firms will say, you know, let's rip up my. Basically a car rental agreement with Boris and stop doing work for the Trump administration because it damages our brand. Law firms may take longer to get there, but for a media company, at least as Stellar's reporting, to view it as toxic to capitulate does feel like progress.
- [39:24]
Oliver Darcy
It's obviously toxic. I mean, look at what's happened. I mean, look at their. They all have their own case study. And. And so they are obviously not running the same play as last time because they realized that was toxic to their brand. But even broader. I think anytime a media company has bent the knee to Donald Trump, you've seen them suffer as a business. And you could go down the line, whether it's paramount, they're seeing historic low ratings at CBS News because of the things that they're doing to kowtow to this administration, whether it's the Washington Post going to the right and seeing literally hundreds of thousands of cancellations. I mean, you go down the list, anytime a media organization kowtows to this administration, the audience rebels. And so if you actually do care about the business of these media companies, you have to stand up to the administration. And that's notwithstanding the actual politics, which is that Trump's not popular and the Democrats are probably about to get control of Congress. So the political winds are shifting in Washington. And these people, you know, these executives, they can certainly read that, too.
- [40:21]
Host Nicole Wallace
I remember talking to somebody on the Paramount side and saying, this is the most overserved group at the bar, right? Like, they've got table service. They've got. They're drunk on content. Why are you serving them more? Do you know the answer to that.
- [40:37]
Oliver Darcy
I would guess that I mean a few things. One, I think with Paramount, I think they're just trying to make sure the Trump administration that Donald Trump is happy with them because they need approval for
- [40:47]
Host Nicole Wallace
and it's worth like destroying CBS News.
- [40:49]
Oliver Darcy
And I think they just view that maybe as a casualty of this big deal that they want to get done, multibillion dollar deal that will define media and the landscape for maybe the next century. So I think they view that as just like get the deal done. But I do think that a lot of executives live in this fantasy land that they think that we're in 1990s where Republicans and Democrats. You have one Republican on the panel, you have one Democrat on the panel. They kind of bicker about the policy and then they go get brunch or something afterward. And unfortunately, we're living in a world where one party is no longer tethered to reality.
- [41:22]
Host Nicole Wallace
They or democracy.
- [41:23]
Oliver Darcy
Or democracy. They promote conspiracy theories, they denigrate institutions, they no longer believe in, literally the First Amendment. And so that world in which a lot of executives want to live because it's easier to deal with advertisers, it's easier to be apolitical, it just really doesn't exist anymore. Being political these days is defined as standing for the Constitution. That's like. That gets you framed as a partisan leftist.
- [41:45]
Host Nicole Wallace
Totally, totally.
- [41:47]
Oliver Darcy
That's the crazy thing about the world we live in.
- [41:49]
Mikey Sherrill
Right?
- [41:49]
Host Nicole Wallace
Right. It's so true. To be continued with all of you, please. It's the only way. What is it? I think it's like an Under Armour ad. The only way out is through or something. Now we're at Sneakers. Oliver, Darcy, thank you for joining our table. James Hippel. Thank you. You sat down. You know you'd be stuck with us for an hour. That's how we roll. Eddie, thank you. Thank you, my friend. Quick break, we'll be right back. If you ever wonder whether or not our elected officials truly understand the urgency of this moment or the impact of their actions on the lives of everyday Americans, my guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast, for her part, does listen to what New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill, a mom of four, told me about how she thinks about governing.
- [42:36]
Mikey Sherrill
It is a privilege to serve, but it's a responsibility. You've got to lead, you've got to serve and you've got to deliver. And for too many people, it's this theoretical book club. A well run government's life changing and we have to deliver And I'm a mom of four kids and I don't have time for this. I don't have time for people who aren't performing. And no family in New Jersey does either. I mean, think about it. You know, you're a mom. You seem, from everything I can tell, to be incredibly busy. I mean, you know that sense, right? Of like, oh my gosh, I cannot sit around right now. I need this to happen now. I need things to happen now because, you know, you just, you're too busy. And people in this state are too busy. They're working too hard, they've got too much going on in their life to have this nonsensical federal government that's making everything harder. They need somebody to stand up for them and they need it now. It's not, it can't be two years. It can't be a strongly worded letter. It can't be a 10 year study tomorrow. They need somebody doing stuff that's going to impact them tomorrow. And that's what we're working to deliver.
- [43:43]
Host Nicole Wallace
The conversation quickly moved to the things we order for our kids on Amazon and commercial breaks. The rest of that conversation is out now on YouTube, you scan the QR code on your screen for that where you download the best people. Wherever you get your podcast, be sure to let me know what you think of this one on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.
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