"A humiliating climbdown by the Trump administration"

Summary

Deadline: White House — Episode Summary

Episode Title: A humiliating climbdown by the Trump administration
Date: May 8, 2026
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Guests: Ben Rhodes (former Deputy NSA), John Heilemann (PAC News), David Rohde (National Security Reporter), Angela Carusone (Media Matters for America), Angelo Carusone (Media Matters for America President)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the Trump administration’s abrupt and embarrassing reversal of “Project Freedom,” a military operation aimed at reopening the Strait of Hormuz, following backlash from U.S. allies in the Middle East, especially Saudi Arabia. Nicolle Wallace leads a panel of national security and political experts in breaking down the implications: the erosion of U.S. alliances, the administration’s mismanagement and opaque decision-making, the personal style and political calculations of Donald Trump, and the domestic response to his focus on extravagant vanity projects amid war and national hardship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Humiliating Climbdown": Project Freedom and the Strait of Hormuz

[00:53-05:02]

• Trump launched “Project Freedom” via social media, intending to break Iran's control over a crucial waterway.
• Surprise and anger from key Gulf allies like Saudi Arabia and Oman, who were not consulted.
• Saudi Arabia refused U.S. military use of bases and airspace, forcing Trump to pause the operation.
• Reports suggest only two U.S.-escorted ships made it through in 36 hours before Iranian retaliation: drone and missile attacks, heightened tension.
• Quote: “It is really hard to piss off Saudi Arabia. And we have done that.” — Nicolle Wallace [04:48]

2. Process Breakdown & Diplomatic Fallout

[05:02-06:39] John Heilemann

• Unprecedented closure of Saudi and Kuwaiti airspace to the U.S.
• Fundamental failure to inform or coordinate with regional allies.
• “The President lies about why he ends the operation. He claims it’s because there’s progress in negotiations…when in fact, it’s because Saudi Arabia and Kuwait closed their airspace to U.S. aircraft.” — John Heilman [06:09]

3. Unprecedented Risks and International Realignment

[06:39-10:12] Ben Rhodes

• Trump’s pattern is to alienate traditional U.S. allies (NATO), now extending to Middle East partners.
• Gulf allies (especially Saudi Arabia) view war costs as far higher for themselves than the U.S.
• Economic pain for Qatar, Kuwait, Europe; fractured trust.
• Geopolitical risk: Gulf states may realign towards China and become less reliant on the U.S.
• “Gulf states ... can start to realign themselves geopolitically. … That’s a totally new world that we’re going to be in because of this war.” — Ben Rhodes [09:27]

4. Geopolitical Gifts for Rivals: Russia and China Rising

[10:12-12:15]

• Russia’s alliance with Iran is strengthened; U.S. intelligence suggests Russian help in targeting U.S. facilities.
• War’s economic impact (oil prices) strengthens Putin’s war machine.
• U.S. perceived as unreliable; Gulf countries question U.S. support compared to aid for Israel.

5. Trump’s Decision-making & Isolated Inner Circle

[12:15-14:59] John Heilemann

• Lack of conventional national security process; decisions made by a “dot” of inner circle (names mentioned: Marco Rubio, J.D. Vance, Steve Witkoff, Jared Kushner, John Ratcliffe).
• Fiercely insular to prevent leaks—at the expense of informed decision-making.
• Hostility and unpredictability discourage dissent, allies, and even internal advisors.
• “There’s a fear of him … He has a volcanic temper. … It’s a really disturbing and scary dynamic to have so much power in the hands of one person.” — John Heilemann [13:21]

6. Information Wars and Perceived Weakness

[14:59-16:37] Angela Carson

• Iranian propaganda weaponizes Trump’s own obsession with media and image (memes, “Lego videos”).
• Trump’s inconsistent messaging (“love taps,” “skirmish,” “minor excursion”) adds to confusion and erodes confidence among allies and the public.
• “He looks uncertain, he looks apprehensive, he looks confused, and…clearly one thing, which is that the costs of the war, economic and political, are weighing on him enormously.” — Angela Carson [18:08]

7. Political Calculations vs Reality

[16:37-23:15]

• Trump attempts to “wishcast”—declare war over, minimize violence—to avoid Congressional scrutiny and maintain political support.
• Reality of continued casualties, economic pain, and lack of clear objective becomes inescapable.

8. The Public, the Military, and Honest Reckoning

[23:15-25:54] Ben Rhodes

• Discusses profound human and economic toll of war: military deaths, wounded, families affected, global economic strains.
• Trump’s attempts to spin narrative can’t override the reality for “literally billions of people.”
• “This is not one that he can lie and obfuscate his way through because the consequences of war are so real.” — Ben Rhodes [24:05]
• Iran likely to hold out for meaningful concessions, not hand Trump a public “victory.”

9. Vanity Projects Amid Crisis

[25:54-32:43]

• Trump focuses public attention on lavish projects (the “gold ballroom,” reflecting pool) even as nation struggles economically and the war rages.
• Republicans privately decry these expenditures, but none go on record to oppose them.
• “This ballroom is the most politically insane thing and gift to Democrats I can think of.” — Ben Rhodes [36:16]
• Trump’s antagonism toward critical reporters, especially women and people of color, heavily discussed.

10. Trump’s Attacks on Female Journalists

[32:43-42:35]

• Pattern of abuse going back years; considered not just “Trump being Trump” but damaging to national discourse, women and girls' status.
• “The way he talks to women reporters is not funny ... it is outrageous and offensive. It is not good for our young girls in this country.” — Ben Rhodes [37:09]
• Racial dimension apparent in targeting of reporters of color: “the ratio is really cranked up now on female reporters of color.” — Angela Carson [44:12]
• Trump’s attacks seen as both a feature of his personality and political strategy, not a recent development.

11. Reckoning with the National Mood

[43:20-45:10] Angela Carson

• Trump’s public focus on frivolous opulence (the ballroom) is clear evidence of his cognitive and political decline.
• What played to his base in 2016 now rings out-of-touch and politically damaging.
• “No stronger proof of Trump’s mental decline…his political fingertip feel for working people…is totally gone.” — Angela Carson [44:54]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the diplomatic failure:
  “In 50 years, this hasn’t happened. … It is astounding that the president and his aides did not inform any of our allies ... and it’s astonishing again how many unforced errors are happening.”
  — John Heilemann [05:02]

• On Trump’s unpredictability:
  “Is it a circle? Or is it a dot?”
  — Nicolle Wallace and John Heilemann, regarding Trump’s decision-making inner circle [13:22]

• On Trump’s grasp of reality:
  “He’s basically pleading with Iran to give him an off ramp. And everyone on this panel knows that when you start pleading with your adversary to give you an off ramp, they know they have you.”
  — Angela Carson [19:43]

• On aggressive press handling:
  “Not just journalists, but female journalists. It’s far from a stupid question to ask the Commander in Chief…especially since some of his own Republican fellow Republicans are starting to grow skeptical of some of these projects.”
  — Nicolle Wallace [30:28]

• On broader social impact:
  “We do not talk enough about the fact that we’ve had a misogynist dominating our national discourse for 10 years. ... It is not good for our young girls in this country.”
  — Ben Rhodes [37:09]

• The final zinger on Trump’s opulence:
  “That ballroom looks like it was designed by Marie Antoinette ... Jon Stewart referred to that ballroom as looking like it was the inside of Marie Antoinette’s vagina.”
  — Angela Carson [45:10]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:53] — Episode proper begins: Trump’s failed operation and fallout
• [05:02] — Heilemann on diplomatic disasters and unforced errors
• [06:39] — Risks of alienating Middle East allies
• [07:57] — Ben Rhodes on lack of strategy and why Gulf allies distrust Trump
• [10:12] — Geopolitical shifts towards China and Russia
• [12:47] — Panel discusses fear in the White House and Trump’s tiny decision circle
• [14:59] — Angela Carson: Trump v. Iranian meme war, information strategy, public perception
• [23:15] — The real human and economic toll of the Iran conflict
• [29:58] — Trump lashes out at questions over focus on vanity projects
• [32:43] — Angelo Carusone on GOP fecklessness, Trump’s intimidation
• [37:09/40:41] — Patterned abuse of female journalists, with racial component
• [44:12] — Angela Carson on attacks against female journalists of color
• [45:10] — Humorous critique of Trump’s ballroom as evidence of political disconnect

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Tone & Language

The conversation is candid, at times biting, and driven by political clarity and frustration. Wallace and her guests use vivid imagery, humor, and sharp critique, particularly in their assessment of Donald Trump’s leadership style, communication, and decision-making. The panel does not mince words about the dangerous diplomatic consequences or about changes in American political and media culture due to Trump’s conduct.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a comprehensive, critical analysis of the Trump administration’s foreign policy blunder in the Strait of Hormuz — and how it signals a broader unraveling of U.S. alliances, credibility, and basic norms at home and abroad. It puts special focus on the political, personal, and cultural costs of Trump’s leadership style, with panelists warning about the dangerous new precedents being set for American power and politics.

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in New York on a Friday. Donald Trump's chaos, incompetence and governing at a time of war by true social post has come back to bite him in the you know what when it comes to the war with Iran. An abrupt decision to launch an operation led to pushback from stalwart allies of the United States in the region and a humiliating public climb down by Donald Trump. Multiple outlets, including NBC News, the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times are today able to report that Donald Trump was forced to stop what the administration had dubbed Project Freedom and announced it was a plan to help ships cross the Strait of Hormuz after Saudi Arabia refused to let the US Military use its bases in airspace. Here's how NBC News describes it, quote, Trump surprised Gulf allies by announcing Project Freedom on social media Sunday afternoon, the official said, angering leadership in Saudi Arabia. The call between Trump and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman did not resolve the issue, the two U.S. officials said, forcing the president to pause Project Freedom in order to restore US Military access to the critical airspace. Donald Trump angered other allies in the region as well. A Middle Eastern diplomat with knowledge of the matter told our colleague David Rhode that Donald Trump failed to tell Oman, the country that sits on the other side of the Strait of Hormuz, from Iran. Other outlets report that Kuwait and Qatar were not informed either. The Trump administration insists that allies were notified in advance. Donald Trump claimed on Truth Social that the operation was paused because of progress in negotiations, but there is no known reporting to suggest that that is actually the case. Regardless, the operation was not going particularly well for the United States. Just two ships made it through the Strait of Hormuz in 36 hours. Here's how the Wall Street Journal describes the journey of one of those two ships. From that reporting, quote, the Alliance Fairfax, a towering black and white car carrier ship that had been stranded in the Persian Gulf for over two months, was finally making a break for it. Quote, you are all set to go. US Military officer radioed as the ship glided through the Strait of Hormuz on Monday and swung around the peninsula at the northern end of Oman. Safe travels. Soon after, Iran launched a barrage of missiles and drones at commercial ships, at the US Navy and at one of America's allies, United Arab Emirates, where an oil transit hub was set ablaze. US Helicopters sank Iranian speedboats and Iranian drones hit a civilian ship. The intervening hours included the most serious escalation in the conflict since President Trump declared a ceasefire in the war in April. That's where we, that's where things stand right now. That's where we are. A ceasefire in which both the US Military and Iran are attacking each other. But also claiming that the ceasefire remains in effect. U.S. central Command announced this morning that U.S. forces attacked two ships that were violating the blockade on Iranian ports. Donald Trump set back on his heels after backlash from close allies over a hastily arranged plan to break Iran's control over one of the world's most important waterways is unfortunately where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Former deputy national security advisor to President Obama, Ben Rhodes is back. Also joining us, PAC News senior political columnist and national affairs analyst John Heilman's here. And with me at the table, our national security reporter, the aforementioned David Robe. Everyone wants America to win. Everyone wants America and military assets and any commercial assets to be safe. No one is rooting against America or in this capacity, Donald Trump. But there is an unavoidable reality to the fact. I mean, it is really hard to piss off Saudi Arabia. And we have done that.

[John Heilman]

In 50 years, this hasn't happened. That's what's so extraordinary. And the fact that the fact that the President launched this incredibly important operation and it might have succeeded, it was to reopen the Strait of Hormuz by force. It would have taken Iran's big leverage point away from them. It would have brought down energy prices eventually. And it was very well planned. And it was only America could do it. They complained about other countries, but there was 100 aircraft providing 24, seven sort of air cover for this operation. And it is astounding that the president and his aides did not inform any of our allies in the country from Saudi Arabia, the Stalwart you talked about to Amman, which actually borders the waterway and should have known, and it's incredible. And then the Wall Street Journal's reporting, great reporting by our former colleagues at NBC, breaking it. And then Kuwait closed its airsport airspace also. It's astonishing again how many unforced errors are happening. And then lastly, the President lies about why he ends the operation. He claims it's because there's progress in the negotiations with Iran, when in fact it's because Saudi Arabia and Kuwait closed their airspace to US Aircraft.

[Nicole Wallace]

Donald Trump has it's like a signature of his rule to alienate our NATO allies, but it's a new feature to alienate our Mideast allies. Just talk about the risks for him having ostracized all of our NATO allies and now put America in a place of, frankly, unprecedented tensions with these allies in the Mideast.

[John Heilman]

Um, the risk will be clear next week when he goes to China. And he's not going as a weak leader with plenty of allies around him. Instead, he's systematically alienating people with off the cuff ideas or insulting them. I mean, if you just go back to Canada being the 51st state, Greenland was, you know, then the focus, and then this, you know, war of choice in Iran and just belittling the Europeans, who have lots of minesweepers, lots of ships, that could have been part of this. And even if he wanted to go to war with Iran, he could have done it in the bush way. George H.W. and George W. Getting a coalition together, going to the UN Security Council saying Iran is violating these things, Ben. And can say more about this. But instead it's a go it alone and insult your allies. And then again, to launch this operation without telling Saudi Arabia and all these countries was just a huge mistake that I think will haunt this, this country and his presidency.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ben Rhodes to be a fly on the wall when MBS for whom Donald Trump toed the line on Khashoggi better than literally some Saudis did. For MBS to say, I've seen enough, I'm out, is just an extraordinary point to be pushed to when it comes to Donald Trump's conduct.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, and I think there are a couple of things to it. I mean, to kind of return to your opening, Nicole, I think the problem is nobody knows what America is trying to win. You know, it started with regime change and then, you know, the destruction of the nuclear program. Those things, you know, did not come to fruition. Now winning just seems to be opening a strait of water that was open before the war. And so the fact that Trump doesn't even really know why he's doing what he's doing, I think is a reason why these allies just don't trust him because they're not consulted. They've not been brought in at any juncture of this war. And then to focus specifically on the Saudis, the cost to these countries is much, much higher than the cost to the United States. And so already, you know, Qatar has had the largest liquefied natural gas field in the world taken offline. Huge hit to their revenue. Kuwait, all these Gulf states have suffered dramatic economic consequences that are going to be lasting for years. Never mind the fact that our European nation allies are suffering far more shortages than just high gas prices than Americans are suffering. And look, if he did this Project Freedom, what the Saudis knew is that the Iranians would start attacking again, and they'd start attack Saudi oil facilities and Saudi energy infrastructure. And so if you're Saudi Arabia, if you're mbs, and you're sitting there and thinking, this guy has not made me a partner from day one, he's bungled this whole war, I don't even, frankly know why he's doing it. Even if the Saudis don't like the Iranians now, why should I allow my airspace used and recognize that I'm going to be attacked by Iranian drones and missiles and potentially suffer huge economic consequences for a war that I don't even understand at this point? That's where we are. And it is a huge geopolitical shift because as David points out, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Emiratis people with enormous resources have options, and those options include Beijing. They can start to realign themselves geopolitically. And I think that's going to happen, frankly. I mean, not totally, but they're certainly going to hedge. And what we're going to see is the consequences of this war can be felt for many years, because if you have Gulf states and Europeans and others moving away from the United States, making their own arrangements with the Chinese and others, you know, that's a totally new world that we're going to be in because of this war.

[Nicole Wallace]

And let me just press you, not just a new world, but a more dangerous world. I mean, Ben, the only country you haven't mentioned is Russia, but Russia's alliance with Iran in an operational manner seems to be strengthened as well.

[Ben Rhodes]

Not just that. I mean, there are a couple things to that. First of all, the Pentagon has not been transparent at all about the damage that's been done to US Facilities across the region. And the reporting, which is not surprising to me, is that that damage is far more extensive than we knew. Very pinpoint strikes have been launched by the Iranians against US Facilities. That's probably. And again, I don't have intelligence. I would assume, because the Russians are providing intelligence and information to the Iranians to help them do literal damage to the United States military presence in the Middle East. Never mind the fact that driving up the price of oil and as this war is done, that pads Putin's war machine, because that's how Putin gets revenue from selling oil. And never mind the fact that the United States has literally had waivers on sanctions that prevented the sale of Russian oil to countries like India because we're so worried about the price of gas. So this. This is just a geopolitical gift from the heavens to Russia and China. And it's just been devastating to US Allies in Europe, in Asia, and in the Middle East. And it just means that the United States, you know, can't be trusted. These countries, I think, are exasperated. The Gulf countries tried to flatter Trump. In many cases, they contributed to enriching Trump's family. And now they see that at the end of the day. One more thing that I hear from people in the Gulf, too, is that we provided a lot of missile defense support to Israel that we did not provide to the Gulf. So they felt a bit like, left out in the cold after this war began that. That many of them opposed and didn't support because they knew what the Iranian response would be. So I think it's hard for people to understand just how much this has shaken the Gulf Arabs, who literally have an entire security paradigm that is based on stability, predictability, and reliance on the United States.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me just ask both of you. You're both talking to sources, I'm sure, 24 7. As events are so volatile by design, right? They're not volatile because of external dynamics on the battlefield. They're volatile because of Donald Trump. Trump's utterances. Do you hear any like, oh, my God, I thought he was just playing a madman. Do you hear any epiphanies about understanding Donald Trump in new ways from any of our allies or any sort of strategic partners in the region?

[John Heilman]

I hear it from some allies, but everyone seems to fear Donald Trump, whether it's his own aides who this all took by surprise. Marco Rubio defends this whole operation. Hours later, it's canceled. And so.

[Nicole Wallace]

Which, in and of itself is amazing because he does seem like the adult in the Room.

[John Heilman]

Yes.

[Nicole Wallace]

He goes out and does this. Very well attended, very lengthy press conference. I think it's within two and a half hours. Trump has undermined his central announcement again because he.

[John Heilman]

They don't follow the basic step of informing allies. It's such a tiny circle around President Trump. And I saw a circle, though.

[Nicole Wallace]

Or is it a dot?

[John Heilman]

It's a dot. And It's Marco Rubio, J.D. vance, you know, Steve Witkoff, Jared Kushner and John Ratcliffe. That's it. There's no national security process, there's no National Security Council. That's all been. And it's designed to, on one hand, prevent leaks, and it's done that. It's a very small circle. But you don't have people speaking truth to power, telling the president, before you go to war with Iran, they'll take the Strait of Hormuz before you launch this new naval operation, we should tell our allies in the Gulf. So it's. There's a fear of him, too. I mean, he has a volcanic temper. And you just see it in their public comments. Even Rubio is like, I don't want to get ahead of the President, you know, in saying this or that about a policy. And it's, it's a, it's a really disturbing and scary dynamic to have so much power in the hands of one person. And then lastly, in terms of the erratic threats at that press conference last night, where he's standing, he drives out into the from reflecting pool in front of the Lincoln Memorial. He uses a line about, if they don't agree to the ceasefire in Iran, there's going to be glowing red, we're going to annihilate, we're going to blow it up. And a lot of people interpreted that as a reference to a nuclear strike. He didn't say that overtly, and I don't think he necessarily was meaning that. But Valiancer, an expert on Iran, who I've known for years and respect a great deal, he just said this kind of constant language, these threats of annihilation, it's not working. It's perceived by desperation among Iranian officials. And so the. I'm unpredictable. I'm, you know, going to threaten you. It's. It's not working at all in this war.

[Nicole Wallace]

John Heilman, There is an unbelievable Iranian information disinformation. I don't know what you want to call it, but the videos they're putting out about Pete Hexith and Donald Trump feature Legos and catchy jingles. And it gets to this point that David Rod is making. We are winning. In terms of Donald Trump, who is obsessed with vibes, all of his vibes are not just desperation, but fear. And I wonder what you make of what. Like, we've been talking about Donald Trump every day for, I don't know, it feels like 30 years. It was probably just 11:10, but who's counting? What do you like? I feel like I understand that little Rocket man tweet episode chapter when John Kelly was chief of staff better than I understood it at the time. Because you see that when you take out all of the. Whatever it is filling in the helmet, it's just Trump clang, clang, clanging against metal. And it's not strategic and it's not strong and it's not measured and it's not productive. I mean, to David's point, it's not working.

[Angela Carson]

I mean, Nicole, thank you for, on a Friday, for giving me that very vivid image of Trump's metal, metal on metal, the clanging and everything. You should go to work with the Iranian meme makers, because you'd be perfect. That's the kind of thing I'm on

[Nicole Wallace]

the other side in a Lego thing. But I watched the videos and I'm like, how did we walk into this?

[Angela Carson]

They're very good. They're very good. And I will say, actually, earlier this week, Roddy Chang was on the Daily show, and he was like, you Iranians can't possibly compete with us in the meme wars. America is like, where memes are made. And then he played some of the Lego videos, and he was like, oh, my God, these guys are incredible. They're so good at this. Not that he's on Iran's side. That's not the point. The point is that they're playing a game that Trump himself is constantly trying to play. We've seen Trump post a lot of memes of himself. You. We mention them all the time. When he puts himself, when he looks, he's got his Conan the Barbarian body. And you remember the videos where he would be at a UFC match and he'd be body slamming cnn. These are some of his favorite things. And, man, the ones, they're going toe to toe with him. The Iranians are, in terms of making just absolutely both hilarious and scorchingly brutal videos about this. And you're. You're talking about the memes and you're talking about Trump's clanging psyche. I just, I think about this from the standpoint of if you were trying to understand what's going on in this war from, from a normal American voter and from the standpoint of a normal Iranian voter and a normal American voter this week saw Marco Rubio go out on at the White House podium and say, the war is over. The next day, Donald Trump said, we won the war. The war is again reinforcing the notion that the war is over. The very next day, we're engaging in missile aerial bombardments with Iran because they have attacked us and they've attacked us enough that we had to. There are three different places we had to go to, the sources of those military attacks. And Trump, of course, now has to explain that. And so what he does is stand up and say, first he calls ABC News and says they were love taps, that language which we now can put on the list that goes up there with skirmishes and blips and, and all of these weird descriptions of a war. And I stand right next to David Rhoden being offended when you think of the fact there are 50,000Americans in harm's way and there's a 15 who have been killed and there are hundreds, over 500 who've been wounded in this. And the President's talking about love taps. And then he says, they trifled with us again. Add another one to the list and I am getting to the answer to your question, Nicole. Trump does not look anything like the picture of confidence and the picture of even sometimes luna, like big lunatic energy, I think Sarah Longwell calls it sometimes, right where it's like he doesn't have that right now. He looks uncertain, he looks apprehensive, he looks confused, and he looks like he understands clearly one thing, which is that the costs of the war, economic and political, are weighing on him enormously. He is begging Iran for something just. He's basically pleading with Iran to give him an off ramp. And everyone on this panel knows that when you start pleading with your adversary to give you an off ramp, they know they have you and their, their degree of sense of leverage, both political, economic and psychological, has grown with every passing week of the war. And right now, there is no reason why, if you were sitting in Iran and thinking about what your political, economic and strategic interests are, there's no reason why you would be like, let's give Donald Trump an ramp. If the reporting is true, that they can sustain another three or four months of an embargo, but keep hold of the straight before it really starts to bite there. I don't really see why strategically, Iran wouldn't say that's exactly what we're going to do. We're going to take as much pain as we can take because this guy is crumbling before our eyes.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. And the reporting does bear that out. David Rode, thank you for starting us off and for your reporting on this. All week long, Ben and John, stick around. Still ahead for us, against the backdrop of this war, Donald Trump was pressed on whether all of his overpriced and unnecessary vanity projects are connecting with the voters. If it's really what Americans want today, right now, this week, we'll show you what he said. Plus, a huge slap in the face to more than a million voters who last month went to the polls and approved a plan, approved a map that would have given Democrats more seats in the midterms. We'll talk about the nationwide plan to fight back. And look later in the broadcast. They just don't stop. The FBI is now questioning a top election official in Wisconsin about Donald Trump's 2020 presidential election loss there. We'll get to that and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Angela Carson]

Tuesday, May 12, from New York City, a special live taping of Ms. NOW's chart topping podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Join her for an urgent conversation with legendary documentarian Ken Burns. As America approaches its 250th anniversary, they'll explore the state of our country today

[Donald Trump]

through the lens of our past.

[Angela Carson]

Ken Burns and Nicole Wallace in conversation. The American experiment at 250. Get your tickets today at 92ny.org we

[Donald Trump]

are at, as they would say, a war. They call it a war. I call it a military operation. Of course they call it a war. I call it a military conflict. We're in a, I call it a mini war because that's all they are. I call it a skirmish because that's what it is. We have to make a journey down to Iran. This is a minor excursion.

[Ben Rhodes]

This is a short excursion.

[Donald Trump]

It'll be a short term excursion. This is an excursion, a little excursion. We're winning the war by a lot,

[Angelo Carusone]

Filon.

[Angela Carson]

We're up.

[John Heilman]

We're up 35 points,

[Nicole Wallace]

Ben. I think that's the point that Halman was making with some audio visual support there, thanks to Jimmy Kimmel. I mean, we've gone 26 minutes without, I mean, Halman mentioned, without speaking too seriously about the people for whom there's no exasperation, just fear. People whose kids are there, people whose dads are there. The men and women of the military don't get to watch this right from a distance or with remove or Compile sound meshes of the 11 words Donald Trump uses instead of war because the war polls at about 15%. They know their kids are at war. And I, I wonder what, what you think comes next.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, well, first of all, I'm glad you said that, Nicole, because this war has affected literally billions of people. And it starts with US Service members who have been through this deployment, including people who've been killed, people who's lost loved ones, people who've been gravely wounded, never mind the, you know, thousands of people killed, many thousands if you include Lebanon and Iran, including those girls school, girls who were killed in that girls school. But then if you extend out the people around the world that are suffering grave economic hardship, some people sliding into poverty because of this war, people in the United States not just paying high gas prices, but farmers are going to deal with shortages of fertilizer. This is a seismic event. And for him to try to think that he can impose his version of reality on it by using different language or true social posting memes, people know that that's not true. This is not one that he can lie and obfuscate his way through because the consequences war so real. And when you think about what's coming next, you know, I, I agree with John. Like Iran has weathered our punch. The regime is in place. Like they, they've suffered some loss in their military capability, but there reports that some, something like 70% of their ballistic missiles remain and they're making more of it. And they saw their stockpile of highly enriched uranium. And why would they want to just hand Trump some victory that he can declare to get an off ramp? They're going to want him to just leave quietly and maybe they'll open the Strait of Hormuz if they can toll it and continue to get revenue off of it. Or maybe they'll open it if the United States quietly gives them a huge payout in unfrozen Iranian assets or some sanctions relief. But when you look ahead at some point, honestly, the most likely thing is he's just going to have to suffer a humiliating defeat here where he didn't achieve the things that he said in Mar A Lago, that the Iranian people are going to rise up and the regime is going to fall and we're going to obliterate their nuclear program. He'll spin it and say we blew up some ships and some missiles and maybe, hopefully he'll get some nuclear concessions and that stockpile out in exchange for something in return. But you know, he's got bad options and probably the best option is to just try to get anything you can get on the nuclear side, because that's the thing that America really cares about in exchange for some revenue for the Iranians and just call it quits here because he cannot find a military victory. He wants some military victory. That's what Project Freedom was like. Let me show that I did something with my military that won something, but that's what the Iranians, I think, are not going to give him.

[Nicole Wallace]

Halman. The other sort of thing applying downward pressure on our chances to end up better than we started, is Trump's own waning interest in being a leader of the military and of the country at a time of war. He is much more eager. He carries around his own audio visual elements and he makes lots of trips and he's much more eager to talk about his gold Ballroom and the, I don't know, the arch thing and painting the bottom of the fountains. And I mean, like, this is not top of mind for him, clearly.

[John Heilman]

Right.

[Angela Carson]

And I think it goes back, I mean, one other illustration of that, Nicole, is that I think that, you know, what we were talking about before the break, when he talks about how the war is over and how we've won it, you sometimes hear people say, you know, well, he's being, he's being strategic there in the sense that, you know, there's, you have to go to Congress after 30 days or 60 days to get the war power, to get the authorization. And so if he admits it's that the war is still ongoing, they would be confronted with this congressional thing, which of course, they'd never be confronted with, because Republicans in Congress aren't going to ask him to do that. But it's also just too subtle and sophisticated an answer. He's wishcasting. He doesn't want to have to be in charge of making decisions about what it would take to end the war, either on any front. He fulminates and issues these maximalist threats that are, if they were believed by Iran, they would up the existential stakes. They would say to Iran, he's going to destroy our entire civilization. We have all the incentive in the world to hold on to the straight for as long as possible. We don't even care how much pain we have to suffer, because if we, if we, if we get up the straight, he's going to blow us all. The kingdom come. Or what is increasingly the case. They think he's the boy who cried wolf. And every time he now yells about how he's going to bomb in the back of the Stone Ages. They're like, how many times have I heard that before? I've heard that now a dozen times. It's a joke, right? So either way, he's. He likes spouting those threats, that hyperbole verbally, or just basically trying to say that, he's just going to try to bullshit his way through it and basically say, well, the war is over. We won the war. Why are you even talking to me about the war? The war? What war? What war are you even talking about? You guys. And unfortunately, this is a place where even with all of his prodigious powers of spin, reality is just too large for Trump to spin his way through.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. And I guess what makes it different in a domestic political manner is that most voters are onto him. Right. They either understand that this was a promise, Right? No forever wars. And we are now at war in the Middle east, and they see the consequences of it every time they drive by a gas station or fill up. John and Ben, stick around. We have a lot more to get to, including when asked about this stuff, Trump lashes out. Also, when asked about his favorite role right now, Home, Reno guy, his ballroom in there, and his little hands up on the screen. There is some new reporting, though, that shows finally some Republicans might be breaking with him on his pet projects. We'll tell you about it next. Facing record low poll numbers, soaring gas prices that are putting a real strain on a majority of American families in a deeply unpopular war with Iran, Donald Trump is laser focused on his vanity projects in Washington, D.C. things like his $400 million ballroom, the one that he's asked Congress for another $1 billion for to secure it, his victory arch and his reflecting pool Renault that he paid a surprise visit to last night. While there, he was asked by ABC News's Rachel Scott why his focus is on this stuff against the backdrop of a war with Iran. And here was his totally unhinged answer.

[Donald Trump]

That's such a stupid question you ask. We're fixing up the reflecting pond to the Lincoln Memorial, the Washington Monument, and you say, why are you fixing up? Because you can understand dirt maybe better than I can, but I don't allow it. This is one of the worst reporters. She's with ABC Fake News, and she's a horror show. She's saying, why would you bother fixing this up? A question like that is a disgrace to our country.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, it's not like he's down there with a fricking paintbrush. Why is he so mad? The answer really is important, though, and it adds to a litany now of episodes in which Donald Trump has been verbally abusive toward a journalist. Not just journalists, but female journalists. It's far from stupid question, though, to ask the Commander in Chief, especially since some of his own Republican fellow Republicans are starting to grow skeptical of some of these projects. Punchbowl News is reporting this today. Quote, several House and Senate Republicans are privately raising alarms about the money and the political pitfalls of funding anything related to Trump's controversial ballroom. Some of these skeptical Republicans feel the ballroom project is just too politically toxic right now. Especially when Trump said for so long that we'd be paid for by private funds. Quote, a first year poli sci major would know not to ask members to take this vote. And we hope the speaker does, too. That was one House Republican. Another House Republican, put it this way, quote, there is no way in hell that this will get 218 votes on the floor. I want to bring in Media Matters for America President Angelo Caracson. Ben and John are still here. Angelo, I feel like I'm going to predict the first thing you're going to say. The most important thing about that story is that they're unnamed Republicans.

[Ben Rhodes]

That's right.

[Angelo Carusone]

I was going to say they didn't

[Nicole Wallace]

go on the record. Right. They didn't go on the record and crap on the ballroom. Let's look at the ballroom. Let me show you what this ballroom looks like. One, Americans are paying record high prices at the gas pump. Two, economic anxiety and economic inequality are soaring. And three, this was not a journalist that snuck into the Oval to catch Donald Trump secretly foaming at the mouth over his gold Ballroom. Like, this is what he's projecting to the country. This is what he wants people to know he's doing all day, every day. And the Republicans secretly said this is a crappy idea. We are not making too much progress toward normalcy. Angela.

[Angelo Carusone]

No, I was gonna say prove it. Right. I mean, they talk about how absurdly politically toxic this is that anyone should know, right, that the speaker and the President and that this is bad politics. If it's bad politics, then you should have no problem being on the other side. In fact, if it's bad politics, which it is, you should put your name on it because you would reap a reward from being out there speaking that truth. And I think there's a little bit of a tie in here with how he responded to that reporter, which is that he is unhinged.

[Nicole Wallace]

He's.

[Angelo Carusone]

He's aggressive and, you know, totally intense, and people are afraid. They're not putting their name on there. They're leaving the politics to themselves, the personal benefit to themselves on the table because they're afraid of the guy. And I think that's the tie in with the reporter response, which is like, you know, that is what he thinks is going to work. If you just get overly aggressive, you can get in the heads of the people you're, you're engaging with and maybe they'll be quiet and you can just bluff your way through. If you make everything, you put a fresh coat of paint on everything, then somehow the people that are out there, your own supporters that are out there now increasingly saying, we can't afford this, will somehow think, well, everything is going great because things seem a little bit cleaner. And that's the, that's the, the narrative and that he's sort of pushing the, the other piece of this, which is a little bit to the side. But I mean, there's something to unpack about this in his larger like, well being, which is, did he totally not hear what the reporter said, not understand what she said, or intentionally distort it? Either way, there's so many problems with how he responded. It gets into his massage and everything, but he genuinely didn't respond. He just made up a response. And that ties into a lot of the way I think he's engaging online and even this narrative that he's pushing about gas prices, that somehow you can just throw anything out there and people are going to eat it. And that's been true for a while, including amongst his supporters. But, you know, now it seems like the only people willing to continue to buy what he's selling are not even his diehards as much anymore, but it's the standard Republican elected officials. And that's why we continue to be in this mess. Those anonymous people are the only ones that can stop this right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Ben, it's sort of back to where we started, right? You've now like, how bad is he? He's so bad that the Saudis and the Emiratis are saying like, whoa. And it all circles back to what damage does it do if one of the two political parties fails to operate like a political party and instead becomes supplicants and sycophants and obedient members of a gang. This is what happens. And the only difference, I guess, between the way he talks to reporters and the way Republicans fall in line is that the reporter, I'm sure, got up and went back to work today and continue to ask difficult questions of Donald Trump Republicans haven't done that for nine years.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I mean, I have thoughts and feelings about this, Nicole. I mean, first of all, this is what happens when you have someone in your life who exhibits incredibly reckless and self destructive tendencies. If you enable that person for 10 years, you end up in this situation, right? This war, this ballroom, this chaos in this sense that, that we're falling and there's no net. I mean, one thing Donald Trump used to be pretty good at, at least was politics. And this ballroom is the most politically insane thing and gift to Democrats I can think of. I mean, that ballroom looks like it was designed by Marie Antoinette for that to be what he's focused on at a time of an affordability crisis. We didn't even talk about the cost of that war, which is surely going to run into the hundreds of billions of dollars money that could cover affordable health care subsidies for every American. Now he wants to raise the money to build that ballroom that is a monument to the Trump era, to his ego, and to what his priorities truly are, which is not the people that voted for him, it's his ability to sit with his rich tech oligarch friends who along with the taxpayer are paying for this corrupt ballroom that looks like it literally came out of pre revolutionary France. And then the second thing I just want to say is I have two daughters. We do not talk enough about the fact that we've had a misogynist dominating our national discourse for 10 years. The way he talks to women reporters is not funny. It's not just some quirk of Trump. It is outrageous and offensive. It is not good for our young girls in this country. We're going to be living with the consequences of it for years. We don't talk enough about what he has done to debase discourse in this country and to put at risk women and girls in this country. Because if boys and men are looking at the most powerful person in this country talking to and treating women like that, you can bet that that's having an impact around the country. And I just think that's the intangible that these Republican elected officials who just like to say, well, that's Trump being Trump, or I wouldn't have put it that way. No, you are a co author of that and shame on you for doing that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, to that point, I have some of that. I appreciate the turn. We'll follow you there on the other side of a very short break. Everyone sticks around.

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[Chris Hayes]

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. I'm here to let you know the very first episode of my special miniseries, why Is this Happening? The AI Endgame is out right now. In this series, I talk to a variety of experts each week about AI and what it actually is, what it means for us. To kick things off, I spoke with journalist Derek Thomson. He's been spending the better part of the last year trying to get his arms around the same question I am just how big a deal is this?

[Ben Rhodes]

These guys don't really know exactly what

[John Heilman]

it is they're building.

[Ben Rhodes]

They don't know exactly what's behind the door that they're planning to open six months from now.

[Chris Hayes]

Now, why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts,

[Angelo Carusone]

Quiet.

[John Heilman]

Quiet.

[Nicole Wallace]

Why wait for Congress to release the EXA files?

[Angelo Carusone]

Why not just do it?

[Donald Trump]

You know, it's not the question that I mind. It's your attitude. I think you are a terrible reporter.

[Angelo Carusone]

Your DOJ IG just reported this year

[Nicole Wallace]

that there was thorough vetting by DHS and by the FBI of these Afghans who were brought into the US So why do you blame the Biden administration?

[Donald Trump]

Because they let them in? Are you stupid? Are you a stupid person? Because they came into on a plane along with thousands of other people that shouldn't be here, and you're just asking questions because you're a stupid person.

[Angelo Carusone]

What would you say to the survivors who feel like they haven't gotten shot?

[Donald Trump]

You are the worst reporter no one to see. CNN has no ratings because of people like you. You know, she's a young woman. I don't think I've ever seen you smile.

[Nicole Wallace]

If we had the time, if we had the airtime, we could go back to attacks on Megyn Kelly during the debate in 2015 and 16, or Mika Brzezinski in 2017 or 18. Donald Trump has been attacking female journalists since as long as he's been on the political stage. Angela, what is your sense of whether this is more agitation or just a sustained feature of Donald Trump?

[Angelo Carusone]

I mean, this is deep Muscle memory. It's almost a reflex at this point. And I mean, that is. You know, it started. We all know this about Trump, right? I mean, it's not just sort of a new thing that he's picked up along the way. It's the lens through which he sees the world, and he sees women as less than. And obviously, then if you add in other characteristics, he'll even rank you even lower. You know, if you're. If you're not white, you'll be a little bit lower. And that's just it. And it's not a. That's not sort of like a wild assessment. You just have to look at the way he talks. It is totally, much more intense, depending on where you fit on that spectrum. And, you know, and that is a part of who he is. We elected him, everyone in America did, knowing that it was not something that, you know, he was really, ultimately held accountable for. He then was. You know, there was a civil lawsuit against him which found that he was at least guilty of a whole bunch of basically, types of rape. I mean, I don't know. So it's not a surprise. And we accept it, and at least his supporters do. And that, I think, is the ultimate problem. And it gets back to what we were saying last segment. Republican Party accepted this. He's their standard bearer. And they continue to accept it. They don't criticize him. They write it off. They find ways to excuse it. And fundamentally, it is a reflection. I'm so glad Ben brought that up. It ultimately reflects on everybody. Whether or not you supported him, he's still the President of the United States. And that has an incredible downstream effect on how people see their own future, because it says where you fit in the world. And it is breaking a lot of people's perception of just what would have been the American dream, in fairness and just basic decency. And it's all gone. And the real consequence of all of this is that there's so much grossness and mud and intensity that you can't respond in kind. But ultimately, it is making all of our politics, all of our communication, so much worse. And, you know, it has been a decade, and everything seems a lot uglier and grosser and darker. Um, it's not all his fault, but he's certainly been a big reason, a big wind in the sails of making all of our communications a lot more nasty.

[Nicole Wallace]

And because he's litigious. I just want to say, I think the civil trial you referenced, the outcome was he was adjudicated and found liable for sexual assault and defamation of E. Jean Carroll. I think that's what you were talking about.

[Angelo Carusone]

Yes. Appreciate it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Of course, I'm going to give Halman the other word. I know he's bursting because I can see him and we've been texting, but I have to sneak in a break before I do that. Well, I'll be right back. On the other side, foreign. We're back with Angela Ben and John Hamim. Where do you think we are in terms of or do you think we are reckoning with everything that we've been discussing over the last hour?

[Angela Carson]

Well, we're definitely reckoning, but I feel, I felt the need to do a little bit of annotation here just as we head into the break. And I know we're on a very tight clock, so I'm going to do it really fast. Number one, yes, he's a misogynist, but also in particular, the list of female reporters of color that he has gone after. He's been attacking white women reporters for a long time, but boy, the ratio is really cranked up now on female reporters of color, whether it's Yamiche Alcindor or April Ryan or Abby Philip or in this case last night, Rachel Scott, who he's attacked before in almost exactly the same way as he attacked her last night. There's a real racial component there. Number two, I think every time Trump, Trump takes out talks about how he's taken a cognitive Test for the 19th time and now that proves that he's not losing it. I think we need to point to those pictures you pointed to of him sitting in the ball, sitting in there showing off the pictures of the ballroom. Because, Nicole, there is no stronger proof of Trump's mental decline, his cognitive decline in than that because that is something that if you thought got back to Donald Trump in 2015, 2016, unimaginable that he would be sitting there boasting about his Gold Ballroom in that way. He is so far out of touch with what he used to have, this political fingertip feel for working people in America and for the members of his coalition that Trump would have looked at that in the fall of 2016 and been like, you want me to hold him a picture of a Gold Ballroom in Altoona, Pennsylvania? Are you out of your mind? He now thinks that's how he wins. And this is not a thing even about self enrichment. It's not like he's getting rich from the ballroom. He's spending our money. So that's not even a trade off. And the third thing, I'll say to Ben's point about how that ballroom looks like something that was designed for Maria Antoinette, I will leave you with an image of my own. Although it's not mine, it's Jon Stewart's, who referred to that ballroom as looking like it was the inside of Marie Antoinette's vagina.

[Nicole Wallace]

Oh, my God. Only on a Friday. All right, now you've left me speechless. Angelo, thank you for joining us. I'm sorry for Heilman, Ben Rhodes, John Heilman, thank you for spending the hour with me. After a break. Virginia's Supreme Court has ruled against the will of Virginia's voters and in doing so only raises the urgency for Democrats to keep pressing ahead and protecting democracy. We'll talk about how they do that when the next hour of Deadline White House starts after a very short break. Stay with us.

[Chris Hayes]

Artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast, and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes, and as part of my podcast, why Is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.

[Commercial Announcer]

We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now start listening today. Wherever you get your podcasts.