← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“A late night monologue for the ages”
00:46:35
Nicolle Wallace on Jimmy Kimmel's return to late night television and breaking news involving James Comey and Trump's Department of Justice.
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- [00:01]
Nicole Wallace
I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay, that no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.
- [00:22]
MSNBC Announcer
Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.
- [00:40]
Nicole Wallace
The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
- [00:46]
MSNBC Announcer
Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [01:09]
Nicole Wallace
Hi there everyone. It's 4 o' clock in New York. With humor and grace and arousing defense of American values, Jimmy Kimmel is back on the air. In a late night monologue for the ages, Kimmel addressed the comments he made last week about the murder of conservative activist Charlie Kirk. And then he took on an administration led by a president who tried to silence him because Kimmel said things he didn't like.
- [01:33]
Jimmy Kimmel
It's important to me as a human, and that is you understand that it was never my intention to make light of the murder of a young man.
- [01:47]
Nicole Wallace
I don't think there's anything funny about it.
- [01:49]
Jimmy Kimmel
I posted a message on Instagram of the day he was killed, sending love to his family and asking for compassion. And I meant it, and I still do. Nor was it my intention to blame any specific group for the actions of what it was obviously a deeply disturbed individual. That was really the opposite of the point I was trying to make. But I understand that to some that felt either ill timed or unclear or maybe both. And for those who think I did point a finger, I get why you're upset. I've had the opportunity to meet and spend time with comedians and talk show hosts from countries like Russia, countries in the Middle east who told me they would get thrown in prison for making fun of those in power. And worse than being thrown in prison, they know how lucky we are here. Our freedom to speak is what they admire most about this country. And that's something I'm embarrassed to say. I took for granted until they pulled my friend Stephen off the air and tried to coerce the affiliates who run our show in the cities that you live in to take my show off the air. That's not legal. That's not American. That is un American, and it is so dangerous. Should the government be allowed to regulate which podcasts the cell phone companies and wi fi providers are allowed to let you download to make sure they serve the public interest? Do you think that sounds crazy? Ten years ago, this sounded crazy. Brendan Carr, the chairman of the fcc, telling an American company, we can do this the easy way or the hard way, and that these companies can find ways to change conduct and take action on Kimmel or there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead. In addition to being a direct violation of the First Amendment, is not a particularly intelligent threat to make in public. Ted Cruz said he sounded like a mafioso, although I don't know if you want to hear a mob boss make a threat like that, you have to hide a microphone in a deli and park outside in a van with a tape recorder all night long. This genius said it on a podcast. Brendan Carr is the most embarrassing car Republicans have embraced since this one. And that's saying something.
- [04:12]
Nicole Wallace
Jimmy Kimmel also addressed his bosses, his parent company, Disney, saying that he disagreed with Disney's decision, of course, but he thanked them for bringing him back on the air and ultimately for defending his right to poke fun at people in positions of power. It's a decision that Kimmel says will invite backlash from an administration intent on muzzling any criticism.
- [04:34]
Jimmy Kimmel
Unfortunately, and I think unjustly, this puts them at risk. The president of the United States made it very clear he wants to see me and the hundreds of people who work here fired from our jobs. Our leader celebrates Americans losing their livelihoods because he can't take a joke.
- [04:53]
Nicole Wallace
He was.
- [04:57]
Jimmy Kimmel
Somehow able to squeeze Colbert out of cbs, then he turned his sights on me, and now he's openly rooting for NBC to fire Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers and the hundreds of Americans who work for their shows who don't make millions of dollars. And I hope that if that happens or if there's even any hint of that happening, you will be 10 times as loud as you were this week. We have to speak out against this.
- [05:25]
Nicole Wallace
Because.
- [05:27]
Carol Lennig
He'S not stopping.
- [05:29]
Nicole Wallace
We have to speak out. A call for action to defend democratic values and the First Amendment from Late Night host Jimmy Kimmel is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. My friend and colleague, MSNBC senior political analyst and contributing host of Pod Save America, Alex Wagner is here. Also joining us, host of the Bulwark Podcast, MSNBC political analyst Tim Miller. Is here. And executive editor at Deadline.com, dominic Patton is back. Dominic, I'm going to start with you because you've been my wing person through a lot of these twists and turns of this story. I apologize for my head cold. But tell me one, if you're surprised by the decision to return him to the air, and two, if you're surprised by anything he said once he got there.
- [06:14]
Dominic Patton
I don't think there's anything to be surprised about the decision to return to the air, Nicole. And sorry to hear about your head cold. I think that this was clearly the backlash that Disney were feeling. Sources at Disney tell us that, oh, it was all internal. We started talking to him from almost the minute we pulled him of finding a pathway back. And there might be some truth to that, but when you have a massive public backlash, when you have high profile people like Howard stern canceling their Disney plus subscriptions. And the churn for Disney plus was certainly up. When you see 400 celebrities sign an ACLU document, including people like Meryl Streep, people who Disney are in business with. When you have the former CEO of Disney, the man who Bob Iger pushed, decide to take over, Mr. Michael Eisner, when he's saying where is the leadership? The pressure is obviously getting absolute, especially for Iger, who's looking to retire next year, as I said before on this show and obviously wants to cement his legacy. I think more than anything with that, they were caught in this. Now, I think what also made this a little easier for them is Kimmel was very open to talks. Clearly there was compromises. Clearly that's the way this went. But as we saw in those clips that you guys just shown, Jimmy Kimmel didn't hold back. He was very, very upfront about what he wanted to talk about and how he wanted to talk about it. He, he was also very upfront in talking about Erica Kirk, the widow of the tragically shot Charlie Kirk, which in some ways is what started all this because of Kimmel's remarks about Trump and MAGA's response to Kirk's death. He talked about her. He talked about the grace that she showed, a grace that all of us, none of us can imagine, I'm sure. And he also talked about how that much that meant to him and how much it meant what had happened. This is going to go on for several days, clearly, because still nexstar and Sinclair are not showing the shows. But I think in many ways this has been put out in the fore. It's been handled. But of Course, now the President is now threatening to go after ABC again because he said he got $60 million out of the ones before. What can he get again?
- [08:06]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, Tim, let me do two things. Let me show you how many people watch Jimmy Kimmel's return monologue on social media. 19 million and counting. That is 13.3 million on YouTube and 5.6 million on Instagram. And that was just the numbers that we had available to us before we came on the air. Obviously, it's a quickly escalating figure, and we'll keep you updated. But this is the response, I think, that Dominic is talking about. It's Donald Trump's post. I can't believe ABC Fake News gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back. The White House was told by ABC that his show was canceled. Let's stop right there. Who do you think at ABC told the White House that his show was canceled?
- [08:56]
Tim Miller
That's a great question. I couldn't speculate on that. I mean, with Donald Trump, it's one of those things where it's like, did he make it up or is he sharing something out of school? Both are very Donald Trump characteristics. So it's hard to know, I think. Interesting. That post goes on to talk about how much money he got out of ABC from the lawsuit after the George Stephanopoulos shakedown that Disney, that they settled. And I think that we're getting to an interesting place where he goes on to talk about how he wants to get more money out of them this time and he wants to sue them again this time. And it's sort of this like, authoritarianism by lawsuit or I guess, what was the Ted Cruz line about Brendan Carr, a mobster. It's a little different than kind of authoritarian attacks on free speech in other countries, the kinds that Jimmy Kimmel was talking about, about his monologue. Right. Because it failed. It failed to shut him down completely. He wasn't on in some markets last night. We can get into that in a little bit. But it failed to shut him down, and they failed in some of their most overt authoritarian attempts, which is good. And yet he still is using the presidency in a way that no other president has, certainly in modern times, to bully people, to shake people down, to extort people, to try to get money for himself, to try to line the pockets of either him or his family or his presidential library. And he's doing that in a very overt manner. And in some ways, I don't know. This might be another Trumpian innovation. I mean, obviously there have been corrupt Banana republics before, but like this sort of like quasi, you know, authoritarian. It is different than what we see when we talk about the authoritarian attacks in other countries.
- [10:41]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean, Alex, this is a line that he says. The last time I went after them, ABC, they gave me $16 million. This one sounds even more lucrative. A true bunch of losers. Blah, blah, blah. Outing the motive that he possesses as a money grab is completely divorced from anything Brendan Carr said on the podcast. The other thing that they may not have anticipated was this incredible coming together. Let me show you some of the right wing influencers on this narrow question of government controlled speech.
- [11:26]
Jimmy Kimmel
I definitely don't think that the government should be involved ever in dictating what a comedian can or cannot say in a monologue. That's crazy. Now, the problem is the companies.
- [11:40]
Alex Wagner
If.
- [11:41]
Jimmy Kimmel
They'Re being pressured by the government. So if that's real and if people on the right are like, yeah, go get them. Oh, my God, you're crazy. You're crazy for supporting this because this will be used on you.
- [11:54]
Alex Wagner
I want us to be in control of where we spend our dollars, of what we're saying, and not like the government to press a button and say, you lose everything because we don't like what you said.
- [12:07]
Dominic Patton
I do not want the FCC in.
- [12:09]
Jimmy Kimmel
The business of telling local affiliates that.
- [12:11]
Dominic Patton
Their licenses will be removed if they broadcast material that the FCC deems to be informationally false.
- [12:18]
Jimmy Kimmel
Why?
- [12:19]
Dominic Patton
Because one day the shoe will be.
- [12:20]
Jimmy Kimmel
On the other foot.
- [12:23]
Nicole Wallace
Jimmy Kimmel spoke to all that. So let me just show you one more piece of sound. This is Kimmel on surprising support.
- [12:31]
Jimmy Kimmel
So glad we have some solidarity on that from the right and left and from those in the middle, like Joe Rogan. Maybe the silver lining from this is we found one thing we can agree on and maybe we'll even find another one. Maybe we can get a little bit closer together. We do agree on a lot of things. We agree on keeping our children safe from guns, from reproductive rights for women, Social Security, affordable health care, pediatric cancer research. These are all things that most Americans support. Let's stop letting these politicians tell us what they want and tell them what we want.
- [13:18]
Nicole Wallace
We are our leader. No one gets to say that very often, right, that we found something that Ted Cruz and, you know, from all across the spectrum can agree on.
- [13:35]
Alex Wagner
I wish. You know, when I heard it, Nicole, I thought, God, imagine if this call for unity, focusing on the things that bring us together, focusing on the grace and the forgiveness of Erica Kirk, trying to minimize the chasm that seems to separate Us instead of expand it. Imagine if those words were coming from the President of the United States and not a late night talk show host. Right. So the sort of like tragedy of, of where we're at, the surreality. I thought of that. But I think Kimmel was wise to remind us of the things that we do agree on. I wish that Ted Cruz was more alarmed about the trampling of free speech as a matter, as sort of an ethical matter, and not just they're going to weaponize this against us if they ever gain power again. But, you know, we'll let the specifics, we'll paper over those and focus on the fact that there were a lot of people from across the spectrum that saw this for what it was, which is an authoritarian power grab. And Nicole, I make a point in my life of trying to just follow where Tim Miller leads me, but I'm gonna disagree with him on just how out of the woods we are or even where we are on the authoritarian trajectory, because Brendan Carr and Donald Trump are clearly not dimmed by this latest debacle in their pursuit of silencing critics. Right. They're going after, they've already announced, they're gonna go after the View and Saturday night live and NPR. I mean, the campaign is. And authoritarianism in the 21st century doesn't look like necessarily Pyongyang or Yangon. It is. I just came back from Hungary a couple months ago. You can still go to Zumba class and have Greek yogurt and live in a dictatorial state where you don't have freedom of movement, civil liberties and freedom of speech. And that is, I mean, Trump is betting that we all imagine a very specific gulag when we think of the deprivation of our rights. But it can look like the society we have today, only with a lot less liberty. And be not mistaken, they are very much still on this campaign. And they may have been stymied for the moment, but there is a lot of money on the line. And the fact that nexstar and Sinclair refused to broadcast Kimmel last night and there are looming mergers that are going to have to meet with the approval of the Trump government suggests to me that the corporate powers are not done bending and scraping to this president. And he is still very much on a campaign to silence his critics because, as Jimmy Kimmel said last night, he can't take a joke.
- [16:11]
Nicole Wallace
To your point, Alex, Ann Applebaum said that this is exactly what authoritarianism looks like. There are still baseball games, there are still shopping, there are still stores. You know, authoritarian countries have all those things. They also have an absence of democracy, an absence of rule of law and an absence of free speech.
- [16:36]
Alex Wagner
That's exactly right. We shouldn't expect that it's going to look like, you know, it is not that everyone is just thrown in jail willy nilly, but it is a steady and continual erosion of basic freedoms and often with a tacit sort of sanction of the citizenry because they're too absorbed in their own lives, for better or for worse than to pay attention to the trampling of basic rights and in this case the Constitution. But everybody needs to keep their radars up. Everybody needs to, to keep paying attention. Jimmy Kimmel round won this round, but that does not mean this is over.
- [17:10]
Nicole Wallace
Let me ask you, Dominic, what may be a dumb question, but these are television stations in the business of television. As of 1:30pm 19 million people had watched Jimmy Kimmel on social media platforms. I mean, is this in their, is this in their interest to be shoving people away from television and onto YouTube and onto other platforms than their TV stations?
- [17:37]
Dominic Patton
Nicole, obviously we don't yet have the linear TV viewership numbers from ABC. I think those numbers are going to be pretty big. So I think the low ratings thing is out. But I think that's a very good point. I also think a very good point and Alex spoke about it so poetically, about what, you know, authoritarianism America 2.0 looks like. But I think there's another element to this because I think also to what Alex said, and again very poetically, is that indifference is the, is what the Trump administration are really playing on. And there's a number of ways in which that can be turned around. We have seen, for instance, just over the past 24 hours, a number of people who live in regions or markets that are serviced by Sinclair and nexstar and their ABC affiliates, which are not showing Kimmel, have been getting a lot of blowback from their viewers saying we want this on, we want this on now. And some of those, you know, while Sinclair and Nexar are mainly down in the red states in the south, they are also up in like Seattle, they're in Washington, D.C. for instance, and places like that. So there is consumer pushback. I think also too, what we can look at here is, well, we still have a free stock market and you can actually buy stock in these companies and start making decisions. There used to be, there used to be some nuns who used to do this. I think they got Exxon to eventually talk about climate change. So we can take real measures here. I think more importantly though, on a day to day basis, it is something like Kimmel. So to your point, in many ways Brendan Carr is playing a losing hand because the FCC don't have as much power as they think they do and they really don't have it in the digital spheres. So if you start seeing people shifting over to that more and more, and let's be honest, YouTube is the most watched platform in America as well. As Kimmel mentioned last night and others did, if you couldn't get his show in your market because of Sinclair and nexstar being your provider, you could go to Hulu Live and watch it on streaming. And a lot of people did, I bet. So there are alternatives and those alternatives are outside the realm of the fcc. In fact, the FCC also should remember that taking a license away is not like grabbing candy from a baby. It's a long, long process, one of which you can lose.
- [19:40]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I have to sing in a break. But Tim, I want to come back to you on the brand damage that they may have done to the Trump side of this by making Jimmy. If you weren't watching Jimmy Kimmel before, but you were open to him and you and you tuned in this week, you are probably going to tune in more often than you would have before Trump picked a fight with him. I want to ask you what that looks like. Also head it may seem like the Jeffrey Epstein story is inching along very slowly with incremental progress. But now someone has set up a physical reminder of this story that will not go away or be forgotten anytime soon. It's same the statue that has been put up of the convicted ex sex convicted sex offender and Donald Trump in the statue they depict and celebrate their quote, long lasting bond. This comes as Congress has likely secured enough votes to force a floor vote on releasing the files. Also ahead for us, some breaking news from our team in Washington, D.C. this afternoon. Former Director of the FBI Jim Comey is expected to be indicted by the Trump administration. And in the coming days we'll bring you the latest reporting there. Also ahead, what we know and don't know about the shooting at an ICE facility this morning in Dallas, Texas. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [20:59]
MSNBC Announcer
Saturday, October 11th. From New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brusinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, Jen Psaki, Lawrence O' Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [22:01]
Nicole Wallace
We're all back. Tim, I want to read this line one more time from Jimmy Kimmel. He says maybe the silver lining from this is we found one thing we can agree on and maybe we'll even find another one. Maybe we can get a little bit closer together. We do agree on a lot of things. And I thought about the clip I texted you about your appearance this week on a panel with Piers Morgan where I wondered in watching that if you think that's possible, if you think there is still enough that we agree on to even talk to each other.
- [22:36]
Tim Miller
I hope so. Right? If you don't believe that it's possible, it's kind of like, what are we all doing here? Might as well quit doing this work and I don't know, go to a beach somewhere and whale away our days. So I think so. I hope so. I think that there are a lot of forces working against it. As Alex mentioned in the last segment, the President of the United States is working against us all being able to come together and agree on things and lower the temperature. Several of the people I was on that panel with on Piers Morgan working against it, talking about how on the right it was Kerry Lake and Eric Bolling talking about how they wanted to go to war against the left and how the left is violent and how everyone in the left is violent and sick. And you hear Trump saying that type of stuff. You do hear the stuff from the left as well. I don't think we should pretend like there aren't some folks in the left that say that kinds of things about maga. Paint them with a broad brush. And so I do hope we had this shooting today, which I guess you'll get to later at the ICE facility. I just think it's important for all of us to take a breath and talk about as much as we disagree about things. We cannot just resort to political violence or minimize it or just think that that is the inevitable end game to this. Because if we think it's the inevitable end Game to this. It will be the inevitable end game. And what I liked about what Jimmy Kimmel did last night is he modeled what I think a temperament and a rhetoric that I think everybody on the left broadly, or the pro democracy movement could learn from. He was defiant, he was stalwart. There's no question where he stood when it comes to questions of democracy or questions of political violence or what his ideology was. Even you played that clip where he listed out the issues that he cares about. So he was defiant against this administration, against political violence. He wasn't weak or both sidesing it or anything like that. But he also was empathetic and authentic in talking about it. And he talked with emotion about how he felt about the assassination of Charlie Kirk and Erica Kirk's speech. He talked about how lightly, you know, how he felt about, like, you know, what they must be going through. He talked, as you mentioned, about his agreement here with Ted Cruz is unlikely agreement with him. He did it with humor. And I think that, that if we could get to a place where you can talk with humor and, you know, with passion and with authenticity about, about your disagreements with the, the other political side, but also the ways where potentially you can find some common ground, I mean, that's the only fricking hope we have if we can, if we, we can't get to that place and we are speed running our, like I said in that clip, to something that looks more like Yugoslavia, something that looks like one of these countries where political violence just happens all the time and you have these different political tribes or ethnic tribes and you're in a hot war. I don't think anybody wants that. And I think that you can be opposed to that while also being clear in opposition to what the Trump administration is doing, or if you're in maga, being in opposition to the left.
- [25:28]
Nicole Wallace
Tim, what do you take from. Yeah, it does. And I'm taking it all in. I'm listening. But I want to ask you if you take this moment and feel like the collective empathy I think that Jimmy Kimmel expressed, what a lot of people felt when they saw Erica Kerr grieving her husband and forgiving his assassin, his murderer was deep regard for her strength and deep empathy for her pain. And I think what a lot of people felt when Jimmy Kimmel was taken off the air was deep fear for the rights to disagree with the people in power. And I wonder if you think those two universally experienced emotions endure or if you think we're just at such a velocity that nothing endures.
- [26:24]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I wish I could tell you I was optimistic about that. Enduring. I'm not. I think that we're in a very like, I think the fever pitch is very high right now. And I think that there's a lot of irresponsible people stroking it, starting at the White House at the top. And so I'm concerned about that. But in order to actually de escalate, you need folks like Jimmy Kimmel to do what he did last night. And I do think that it was a good start. And I do think you also need to believe that there's some hope. And this going back to my slight disagreement, I think, which was mostly an agreement with Alex in the last segment we were talking about where are we on the authoritarian pipeline? One of the reasons that I like to say, you know, to point out the silver linings when I have a rare opportunity to do that is I think it's important for people to believe we're not on a path or not nearly Pyongyang or not Russia, because if we're Pyongyang or for the Soviet Union, there's no point in fighting. It's hopeless. And if it's hopeless, then people do turn to potentially, you know, rationalize violent actions. And I, and I don't want people to feel hopeless. It's bad. We should be clear eyed about what's happening. It's unprecedented what this president has been doing, you know, attacking the rule of law and attacking democracy. But we've also seen successful pushback. And I think people, and so you didn't have that in Russia, right? People that do successful pushback in Russia get thrown out the window, they start falling downstairs. We're not there yet. And so we should take these moments of successful pushback to galvanize people, to get them feel hope, to make them realize that they can have victories. And if you realize you can't have victories against the other side, then maybe it doesn't seem quite as scary and maybe these more extremist radicalizations that we've seen aren't as likely. I mean, that's a little bit Pollyanna. I even say just coming out of my mouth, I am even skeptical of my own argument there. But I just think that we have to at least try that, try to believe that and try that path.
- [28:13]
Nicole Wallace
Well, Alex, before I turn the floor over to you, I just want to say that one of the things that folks like Ruth Ben Ghiat and Tiffany Snyder write about when they write about studies of authoritarian regimes is that the most effective, the cheapest tool they have is a populace's despair and hopelessness. It costs nothing. It keeps people off the streets. You don't waste any bullets on them. You know, despair is a tool. It's a tactic. And so, you know, one act of defiance is to cling to, you know, glimmers of hope and community and this feeling that we still have agency. How do you feel about that analysis?
- [28:56]
Alex Wagner
I always agree with everything that you and Tim say. As someone who has worked with organizations that support journalists and freedom fighters in Burma and Myanmar and who's talked to dissident journalists in Hungary and really all over the world, those people haven't given up either, and they should serve as inspirations to us all. We have so much more freedom. Jimmy Kimmel is back on the air. Trump didn't win this round. I don't think we should be shy about proclaiming the sort of stakes that we face as a country. But I by no means think anybody should be giving up. And listen, I think with America, despair is part of the thing that we have to worry about, but so is numbness and so is isolation, and so is shutting things off and turning away and pretending like it's not happening in your backyard. People all across this country are touched by the policies of this administration, whether or not they choose to acknowledge it. They know people in backyards and on their corner who are affected by some of the most controversial and brutal positions this administration has taken. And it is, I think, time for us, in order to sort of rekindle the fire of reinvesting in our democracy and being civically engaged, is to feel that connection. And maybe that starts with conversations. I always think it does. My work as a journalist is always trying to talk to people who are as different from what I know and understand as possible and try to understand how and why they tick. Because I think as a journalist, that's our work. And as a citizen, citizen and democracy, remembering the connective tissue and the fact that we are one community, these United States. I'm not running for president, so I'm not trying to be overly heavy handed in all of this, but I think staying awake, keeping your light on, looking across the room and outside your door and reminding ourselves that this is a project we are all in together and a destiny that we choose collectively is the first step towards not despairing and giving up when the times are tough.
- [30:52]
Nicole Wallace
I love everything you all just said. Thank you so much for that. Alex and Tim and Dominic, thank you so much for starting us off. I needed all of you today. Thank you. Up Next for us, we'll talk with the reporters on the breaking news this afternoon. They have reported that former director of the FBI Jim Comey is expected to be indicted in the coming days by Donald Trump's Justice Department. Quick break. We'll be right back with that.
- [31:20]
MSNBC Announcer
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with legendary singer songwriter Joan Baez.
- [31:31]
Nicole Wallace
In all my career, I've said that social change cannot happen until somebody's willing to take a risk.
- [31:38]
MSNBC Announcer
The Best People with Nicole Wallace listen now for early access and free Listen listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [31:52]
Nicole Wallace
There is some breaking news from MSNBC to tell you about. As we've been reporting throughout the afternoon, former FBI Director Jim Comey, Donald Trump's longtime political foe, is expected to be indicted in the coming days in the Eastern District of Virginia. That is, according to three sources familiar with the matter. MSNBC is reporting that the full extent of the charges are unclear, but sources believe at least one element of the potential indictment will accuse the former FBI director of lying to Congress during testimony in September of 2020 about whether he authorized a leak of information. The statute of limitations on that charge expires Tuesday. If an indictment of Jim Comey goes forward, it would be brought by the same office where A Trump appointed U.S. attorney, E. Seibert, was forced out last Friday, late Friday, when it became clear he opposed bringing a case against New York Attorney General Tish James. According to MSNBC's reporting, Siebert was also reportedly not in favor of charging Comey. I want to bring into our coverage my colleagues, Ken Delanian, he is the justice and intelligence correspondent for MSNBC and MSNBC senior investigative correspondent Carol Lennig. Carol Lennig, take me inside what you're reporting.
- [33:12]
Carol Lennig
Ken and I have been hearing for a good few days now, Nicole, that a grand jury has heard information and potential evidence to charge Comey or to consider charging Comey with lying to Congress. We're really clear on what we don't know here, Nicole. We don't know whether or not a grand jury has been asked to indict. What we know is that some information has been presented and there are, there is a belief by three different sources that this indictment, if it works, if it happens, could come in days, possibly as early as tomorrow. I think what's really important to know here, Nicole, is that the evidence that the theory of charging former Director Comey that we have heard about what's been described to us is super questionable factually we've been told that he is accused by prosecutors of lying to Congress, and that's their operating theory, based on his September 2020 testimony on the Hill in which he said he did not authorize leaking information to the press and in particular authorize Andy McCabe to leak information to the Wall Street Journal about the Clinton Foundation. We're not saying we know that's what he's going to be charged with. We're saying those are some of the things investigators have been claiming as evidence in their case. But all of the public, Ev, Nicole, everything that I've read backwards and forwards about this shows that internal DOJ watchdog investigations concluded Comey did not authorize that leak. And Comey was surprised by that specific leak. So big questions here about how this case is going to move forward.
- [35:00]
Nicole Wallace
Can I ask you to help us stitch together a timeline, Carol? The New York Times reported late Friday that that Eric Siebert, the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, had recently told senior Justice Department officials that investigators found insufficient evidence to bring charges against Ms. Tish James, and it also raised concern about a potential case against Mr. Comey. That's according to officials familiar with the situation. It goes on to describe, as of late Friday night, a reluctance from Mr. Siebert, who is the, I believe he's the son in law of longtime Republican adviser to Glenn Youngkin. I mean, these are all Republicans who were nominated by Republicans and in communication with the Republicans who make up Donald Trump's Department of Justice. Is it your sense that the timeline would have the grand jury convened Monday after he's forced out of the Department of Justice Friday, and that the scenario that would have taken place is that it was this week that they presented this evidence that Sievert himself found insufficient to a grand jury?
- [36:12]
Carol Lennig
We don't know that with clarity, Nicole. What Ken and I do know is that these legal theories about allegations that Comey lied to Congress in his September 2020 hearing is one of the items that's at the core of this case, if you can call it a because we haven't seen the charges yet. We haven't seen a prosecution memo. We don't know. I can't tell you if somebody asked a grand jury to vote on this and they turned it down, I can't. All I know is we have sources who say the information has been presented to the grand jury. I'm so glad you focus on Siebert. However, this is a man who was viewed as very close to Emile Bove. In fact, he boasted, according to our sources of being really well aligned with Emile Bovet, the former deputy Attorney general and former acting deputy Attorney General. He also was viewed as a loyalist to Trump. I don't mean a blind loyalist, but somebody who wanted to implement the president's agenda. And in this instance, the facts we're told by sources got in the way of his loyalty, where, you know, he's a prosecutor and he knows what cases can be brought. And the Letitia James mortgage fraud case was just a bridge too far for him, according to our sources. And he was told, you will resign or we will remove you. And as you know, from Ken's and my reporting, last week he chose to resign and sent a note to all of his staff thanking them and just saying he was leaving.
- [37:42]
Nicole Wallace
We have all covered Jim Comey for years. He was thrust into the center not just of law enforcement, but of our politics in 2016. He's been on this show multiple times. The most recent time I asked him if he was afraid of just what you were reporting could be happening this week. Let me show you what he said. Do you worry that his people will not treat you fairly now that you're under scrutiny?
- [38:13]
Jim Comey
Sure. But we live in a reality based world where people, if they're going to make accusations, have to make them in front of judges, have to put evidence forward, have to swear that they things are true. I believe in our judiciary. I believe in that one remaining leg of our three legged stool, that independent judiciary is alive and well and gives me great comfort.
- [38:35]
Nicole Wallace
Is that what you think will backstop whatever comes at you from the Trump Justice Department?
- [38:42]
Jim Comey
Sure. I wouldn't expect anything to come at me from the shell business, but anything that did come at me, if I get more audits, more investigations. Yeah. Yes. Our saving grace, we still have a leg on our stool. If we lose that, I don't know where we are. But we have judges appointed by all different presidents of different parties who believe.
- [39:02]
Dominic Patton
In the rule of law.
- [39:03]
Jim Comey
And if you come into their courtroom, heaven help you if you're not telling the truth. That still exists in this country and should be a source of great comfort.
- [39:12]
Nicole Wallace
It's almost eerie to listen to him say that. I mean, he did have a backstop, it sounds like, and a Republican appointed prosecutor. And Mr. Siebert, Ken, what do you think when you hear him talking about the institutions or the guardrails that remain?
- [39:32]
Ken Delanian
I think he's right. I agree with him. But of course that will not protect him from the public opprobrium that would come with being charged with a crime from the legal expenses that he's going to have to pay to defend himself from the angst and emotional turmoil that he may go through. And look, you know, Jim Comey obviously is a man of means, so he can afford the best lawyers and he can afford to sort of wait for a judge to do the right thing, assuming that there's a case filed without very good evidence. But other people who are in the crosshairs of this effort are not, maybe in such a similarly situated position, then will suffer more and maybe can't afford, you know, a multimillion dollar legal offense defense. And that's really the rub here. I mean, this is, we've never seen this before in the United States, a situation where politicians are pressuring the Justice Department to make charging decisions, and they are moving forward despite the concerns of career prosecutors that the evidence is not there. I'll say, in terms of the facts of what we're looking at, there's also also, in addition to the exchange with Senator Cruz about leaking information back in 2020, there's also his, they also appear to be looking at his interactions with his friend Dan Richmond. And we all remember those dramatic hearings where Comey's, his diaries, essentially his writings, his memos that he wrote about his interactions with Donald Trump were made public. And so Dan Richmond, I've confirmed, has been called to testify before this grand jury. He declined to comment about that. So, but again, it's unclear. You know, prosecutors have had years to look at this, and it's unclear what the potential crime there would have been. Comey said he never authorized any leak of classified information. And so, you know, we just have to wait and see what they come up with. But again, again, going back to what Carol said, you know, and what you've made the point, this is a Republican appointee, Donald Trump's selection to be the U.S. attorney, also a career prosecutor, but a good Republican who took a look at the evidence in both of these cases and said, I don't think there's a case there. And he was shown the door. And now you have a woman, Lindsey Halligan, who was Donald Trump's defense lawyer, but who has no prosecutorial experience, who's running that office, and we'll see what decisions get made here.
- [41:56]
Nicole Wallace
Carol, let me ask you about that. The Times has also reported on the same facts that Kendallanean is talking about, and this is what they say about Mr. Richmond. Last week, prosecutors from Mr. Siebert's office subpoenaed Daniel Richmond, a Columbia law professor, and close friend and adviser to Mr. Comey. In addition, in connection with the investigation to whether the former director had lied about whether he authorized Mr. Richmond to leak information to the news media. Documents released by the FBI in August showed that investigators had examined possible disclosures of classified information to the New York Times. Mr. Richmond's statements to prosecutors were not helpful in their efforts to build a case against Mr. Comey, according to two people familiar with the matter. So it seems that what you and Ken are reporting, what the Times is reporting, is that under Mr. Siebert's leadership, they did pursue that line of investigation and at least as of late Friday night, did not find any evidence that was, quote, helpful in their efforts, efforts to build a case against Mr. Comey. Are you aware of anything changing or any new witnesses or new testimony?
- [43:01]
Carol Lennig
No, I'm not. I will say that the Richmond element of this potential charge, you know, one thing Ken and I had heard over the last few days was this allegation that somehow Comey had improperly released classified information. But what he gave to Richman was basically a description of his memo that he wrote to himself in a car after talking to Donald Trump. It's hard to imagine that containing classified information, it's conceivable, but pretty hard based on the reporting that we know that came of Comey's own memo. His memo basically said, I want to tell myself and remind myself what Donald Trump just said to me. That felt like pressure to close down the investigation into his campaign's contacts with Russian operatives and an obstruction investigation into Donald Trump himself and an investigation into his longtime ally, Michael Flynn. In many ways, what Donald Trump said to Comey in that memo were, you better be loyal to me. You're going to be loyal to me, right? And give Michael Flynn a break. All of these things are totally inappropriate things to say to an FBI director. And by my lights, reading what I know of that memo, none of it is classified.
- [44:21]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I think we've all covered this story for so long. I think the quote that was at least recorded was, see to it to let Mike Flynn go. He's a good guy. Let him go. And here we are, what, eight years later, still talking about it. You guys are amazing. Carol Lennig, thank you so much for joining us to talk about your reporting. Ken sticks around to talk to us about more of his reporting. Ahead for us. We're learning more about the deadly shooting at an Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility in Texas. We'll tell you about it next. We are following the news out of Dallas, Texas. Where a shooter this morning opened fire at an ICE field office. U.S. government officials say three detainees were shot. One is deceased. The two others are in critical condition. They also confirmed that no officers, no ICE officers were injured and that the shooter died on the scene from a self inflicted gunshot wound. Law enforcement officials say that the shooter fired multiple rounds at the ICE field office from a nearby rooftop. At this time, the motive is not clear. But according to a photo posted on social media by the director of the FBI, Kash Patel, at least five shell casings were found at the scene, one of which had quote, anti ice, end quote written on it in blue ink. We're back with Kendallaney and Ken. What is the latest on the investigation into this tragic shooting?
- [45:45]
Ken Delanian
Yeah, well, police say the shooting happened around 6:40am Nicole, and as you said, there was some confusion about this, but it's one dead and two wounded migrants were hit. No ICE officers, as you said. And police did say the shooter killed himself. He's been identified as 29 year old Justin John. He was perched on a nearby rooftop and used an AR style rifle. And investigators said that John fired indiscriminately at the ICE office, peppering a transport van with bullets and also hitting windows in the building. John's brother Noah told NBC News that he did not believe his brother was especially interested in politics and was not aware of any deep outrage on his brother's behalf about immigration policies. He said he didn't have strong feelings about ice as far as I knew. He said his brother had been unemployed but was previously working as a coder. We saw records that John was arrested in 2015 and charged with dealing marijuana. And other records show he was registered as an independent in the 2024 election, but last voted it in the democratic primaries in March 2020. Obviously, the inscriptions on the bullets echo what we saw in the Charlie Kirk killing and the Luigi Mangione alleged assassination of the United Healthcare CEO. And so that's getting a lot of attention. The FBI is focusing on that. They're looking at this as potential domestic terrorism, left wing motivated violence against ice. And it's part of a pattern, they say, of violence against ICE. They say that assaults against ICE officers have increased some 700% in recent months. There was an incident on July 4th where 15 people, some wearing 10 tactical gear, some carrying rifles, attacked another ICE facility in Texas. Those people are now charged. They shot and killed a local police officer. They're now charged with murder and other crimes. So we're in an environment of heightened political tensions over ICE and an environment where more and more people are turning to political violence from both sides of the political sphere and is really troubling to a lot of people in law enforcement. Nicole.
- [47:46]
Nicole Wallace
Ken, we have Joshua John as the name, not Justin John. Does that sound right?
- [47:52]
Ken Delanian
I'm sorry, I misspoke. Yeah.
- [47:53]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. Just want to make sure we have the same, the same reporting your sense of where the investigation goes from here.
- [48:02]
Ken Delanian
Well, obviously, we don't really know a lot about motive. And that's what law, that's what FBI agents are digging into right now. What was his online profile? Who was he talking to? Of course they want to know if there were any co conspirators, did anyone help him, did anyone know about this in advance? And they're going to want to know to what extent this was preplanned. Another thing that's really scary about this is the use of a rifle and him taking up a sniper position. Now, he had his brother said he was not a marksman. He had no real training with this rifle. And he fired indiscriminately and he didn't hit, apparently, the people that he wanted to hit. But he, but it's really hard to defend buildings against somebody in an elevated position using a rifle. And that's another thing that law enforcement is going to consider is what is the defense against these kind of attacks going forward.
- [48:48]
Nicole Wallace
Nicole, it's awful. Kendallane, thank you so much for joining us to talk about it and for all your reporting today. Up next for us, a special election in Arizona yesterday could be what forces the floorboat. I'm releasing the Jeffrey Epstein files. We'll tell you about that next.