Nicole (2:24)

from no wars to however long it takes. Now with the war in Iran intensifying on multiple fronts and already costing the United States $1 billion a day and the loss of six lives of men and women of the military, it appears that it will take a whole lot of US Military force and possibly treasure and spending the White House press secretary claiming in a statement to Axios that Donald Trump quot makes decisions based on what's in the best interest of the United States and the American people, end quote. But here is what the American people think about Donald Trump's war in Iran. Six in ten of them disapprove of the decision to take military action in Iran. 41% of Americans approve. 6 in 10 also say they do not think Donald Trump has a clear plan for handling the situation. Donald Trump's lack of a plan might be one of the reasons as to why he has not yet sought approval from Congress, as prescribed in the Constitution, to launch a war against a foreign country and its leader. The New York Times reports today how presidents for decades have sidestepped Congress to launch military strikes, but that Donald Trump's unilateral decision to attack Iran is an extraordinary escalation because, quote, the prospect of attacking Iran, absent a literally imminent threat of attack by the country has stood apart as a textbook example of what would seemingly still require congressional authorization. The potential for rapid spiraling of retaliatory strikes on US Citizens, troops and allies in neighboring countries, of escalation into a bloody regional conflagration with global economic consequences, seem too extreme a risk for any one person to decide to take to take on. As we wait for the briefing at CENTCOM to begin, I want to bring in our panel. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He served as a commanding general of the US army in Europe. Also joining us, staff writer at the Atlantic video podcast host David Frum is here. Also joining us, PAC News, senior political columnist, national affairs analyst John Heilman's back and senior political analyst, contributing host on Pod Save America, host of the podcast Runaway Country. Alex Wagner is here. General Hartling, let me start with you. What would you like to hear today and what haven't you heard yet on what is, I guess, day five or day six of this war with Iran?

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (4:46)

Well, what I would like to hear today, Nicole, is what are the objectives? What are the strategic end states? What's the vision for this conflict? And number two, you know, as you were just talking, a mind meld came into me. Thinking back to FDR during World War II and the grainy films that all of us saw in our history classes where he went before Congress and talked about a day that will live in infamy and gaining the support of the American people. If he's looking to conduct a war, as you just showed on the statements there, the majority of the American people, me included, don't believe in this conflict because we don't know what it's all about. We don't know the strategic objectives. So in order to go to war as a nation, the leader of the nation usually has to persuade and influence the American people to understand the reasons for that war. We still don't know other than the fact that they wanted to decapitate a regime and go along with our partners in Israel to make their lives safer. So that's what I'd like to hear.

Nicole (5:49)

Truthfully, General Hertling, I just want to keep an eye on this and take it as soon as it starts. If I interrupt you, I apologize in advance. What is the impact to the military of the. I think last time we talked, there were four rationales. Marco Rubio said we followed Israel. We knew they were going to strike, so we had to engage. Donald Trump about a month ago talked about the people protesting on the streets yesterday. He added what we count as the fourth or fifth rationale, and that was that they tried to kill him. After the strike against General Salmani. We also have from Rubio and other members of the Cabinet other utterances about Iran, but not one clear reason why we are at war with Iran. What is the impact on the military of having that not either agreed to among the different members of the Cabinet, including the president, or communicated directly with the country?

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (6:48)

When you are an operational level commander, Nicole, and what I mean by that is someone who pulls forces together and develops a plan, they take a look at first. What are the strategic objectives? What do my political and civilian leaders want me to do? Again, I'm going to harken back to World War II. I studied this in history classes. But when Marshall gave Eisenhower the command to go into Europe, he said, enter the continent of Europe and defeat the Nazi war machine. That was directly from the President. And the president knew what the strategy was going to be next, so the operational commander knew what he had.

Pete Hegseth (7:29)

I'm honored to stand.

Nicole (7:31)

We're going to listen in. This is Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth at the podium alongside CENTCOM commander Admiral Brad Cooper will listen.

Pete Hegseth (7:39)

In better part of two hours, going through the entirety of this, this operation, Operation Epic Fury. And Admiral, I want to thank you for everything you do and your incredible leadership, for your dynamic thinking, the way you're attacking this problem set on every level. In just days of Operation Epic Fury, you and your team have delivered nothing short of devastating, precise strikes, taking out the better part of Iran's navy, making it combat ineffective, neutralizing missile sites and launchers and establishing total dominance over the Skies we fly over and seas we fly over. Our forces are executing with unmatched skill and the mission is advancing decisively. This is the kind of no nonsense, results driven war fighting that America demands. And you're delivering it in spades. You are the man for this moment, Admiral Cooper. On behalf of the President, the Department of War and every American watching, I want to thank you for your outstanding job you and CENTCOM are doing. Keep pressing the fight and we are with you all the way. A few thoughts before I hand it over to the Admiral for an update. Iran is hoping that we cannot sustain this, which is a really bad miscalculation for the IRGC in Iran. You see, there's no shortage of American will here. We remember and honor our fallen. Those six that we will soon welcome at Dover who gave everything for their country in this mission. We remember them. But we remember them by rededicating ourselves even more fervently to this mission. Our commitment to our mission objectives only increases as our advantages continue to increase. We've got no shortage of munitions. Our stockpiles of defensive and offensive weapons allow us to sustain this campaign as long as we need to. Again, our munition status only increases as our advantage increases. Our capabilities. We have only just begun to fight and fight decisively. Having a chance to hear from Admiral Cooper, if you think you've seen something, just wait. The amount of combat power that's still flowing, that's still coming, that we'll be able to project over Iran is a multiples of what it currently is right now. When you add up our capabilities and those of the Israeli Defense Force forces and we have no shortage of authorities, the Admiral knows we have clear objectives with maximum authorities on the battlefield. The dumb, politically correct wars of the past were the opposite of what we're doing here. They had vague objectives with restrictive, minimalist rules of engagement. No more. Our authorities, his authorities, centcom's authorities through the President and myself, are maxed out. Our capabilities are overwhelming and gathering still, as are those of our Israeli partners. Our munitions are full up and our will is ironclad. Which means our timeline is ours and ours alone to control as long as it takes to ensure the United States of America achieves these objectives. And as we flow more forces and as we flow more capabilities and as our munitions are as we're flying over the top, have even more devastating effects. We set the tempo, we set the timeline. Led by the commander on the ground. Our ear is to the ground to listen to Admiral Cooper, what he needs and what he needs, he will get. We are built for this fight and we are in it to win it. And we have the right commander in the lead. So I'll now hand it over to Admiral Brad Cooper to give you an update right here from CENTCOM. Admiral.

Admiral Brad Cooper (11:33)

Mr. Secretary, first, thank you very much and good afternoon and welcome to U.S. central Command headquarters, America's war fighting headquarters. It's great to be here alongside the Secretary and representing the more than 50,000 men and women in uniform currently executing Operation epic fury. So, Mr. Secretary, first, thank you very much for your leadership and support and the very clear vision and objectives that you've given us to allow us to use overwhelming force against the Iranian terrorist regime. And thanks to all of you for attending today and welcome to Tampa. We are now starting our sixth day of a historic mission to eliminate Iran's ability to threaten Americans. We are. If I could channel my inner Navy officer, we are at full speed ahead in executing orders given by leadership in Washington. The President and Secretary Hexath have been crystal clear in their expectations, and we are at a high level of execution, as described by the Secretary and earlier this week by me. US combat power is building. As Iranian combat power declines, our air dominance allows us to hit Iran's center of gravity with overwhelming power and reach a couple of examples. In just the last 72 hours, America's bomber force has struck nearly 200 targets deep inside of Iran, including around Tehran. And in just the last hour, US B2 bombers dropped dozens of 2,000 pound penetrator bombs, targeting deeply buried ballistic missile launchers. Notably, we've also struck Iran's equivalent of space command, which degrades their ability to threaten Americans. Then if I just look back over the last 24 hours of the operation, compared to where we were at start, ballistic missile attacks have decreased by 90% since day one. Drone attacks have decreased by 83% since day one. Having said this, we remain vigilant. Our strikes against the Iranian navy have intensified. You may have heard the President say just a little while ago that we have sunk or destroyed 24 ships. That was true. At the moment, we're now up over 30 ships. And in just the last few hours, we hit an Iranian drone carrier ship roughly the size of a World War II aircraft carrier. And as we speak, it's on fire. The President gave us another task to raise or level Iran's ballistic missile industrial base. So we're not just hitting what they have, we're destroying their ability to rebuild. And so, as we transition to the next phase of this operation, we will systemically dismantle Iran's missile production capability for the future. And that's absolutely in progress. This is going to take some time, but our forces are well supplied, as the Secretary said, and we are absolutely ready to prosecute this mission decisively. Our combined joint forces have relentlessly destroyed Iran's air defenses over the past few days, and they've continued hunting for more systems to kill. Our air defenders are operating at the very top of their game. I couldn't be prouder. Shoulder to shoulder with our partners in the region, in many cases providing the most integrated air defense network in Middle east history, we are fighting to win through combined US And Israeli combat power. We will continue decimating Iran's ability to project power outside its borders. And if I can just conclude by saying a strong salute to the brave men and women who are out on the pointy edge of this, really doing exceptional work, I just couldn't be prouder. And I know the American people sharing that same pride. So thank you very much.

Pete Hegseth (14:58)

Absolutely. And with that, we'll take a few questions. Yeah, right here, sir. Appreciate it. Admiral, I wanted to ask. Secretary. The Ukrainian president said today that the US has asked for specific capabilities deal

Alex Wagner (15:12)

with shattered drones, Iranian drones.

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (15:14)

Can you guys talk about what you asked for?

Pete Hegseth (15:16)

And has there been any surprise, any surprise from Iranian capabilities that you guys

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (15:21)

have seen in the past six days?

Pete Hegseth (15:23)

Go ahead.

Admiral Brad Cooper (15:24)

We're very familiar with Iranian's capabilities, and as you might imagine, we planned for it right from the outset, and I feel good about what the plan was. Like any good organization, we adjust as necessary to meet the environment, and we've made those appropriate adjustments.

Pete Hegseth (15:40)

Absolutely. Right here.

Nicole (15:41)

Thanks, Secretary. I have two for both of you. One was an American pilot shot down today in Iraq. And two, I've heard reports that there's enriched uranium stored in Isfahan. Also heard reports that there's not a lot of bombing there. Is that on purpose? Do we believe there's new British uranium there and would we ever send special forces to secure it?

Pete Hegseth (16:02)

As CENTCOM pointed out that those reports of an F15 being shot down are false. As you can imagine, Iran is doing everything it can to peddle in lies, deception, and inflation of numbers and reality, mostly to propagandize to their own people. Right. They don't. They've shut down the Internet. They're hoping they can convince their own population that they're having success. One thing one of their leaders said recently is that, you know, 500Americans have been killed. They claim these are lies. The lies will Continue. CENTCOM will continue to debunk those lies. So, and as often is the case in conflict, first reports are. Are often wrong as it pertains to nuclear material and things like that. One of the objectives, the President has always said, is that Iran will not have a nuclear bomb, nuclear capabilities. But we would never disclose what we will or will not do inside operational plans. So Admiral Cooper's got a plan. We're working that plan. And, and targets will be struck or not struck according to what we want to achieve. Yeah, right there. Secretary, he said earlier today in an interview that he would like to have a say in who's the next leader of Iran. Is this an expansion of your military objectives? Do you view it that way? And additionally, you spoke earlier today about how previous leaders have drawn resources from our hemisphere to the Middle East. How do you avoid that? Well, there's no expansion. Ultimately, I think the President's having a heck of a say in who runs Iran, given the ongoing operation we have. So there's no expansion in our objectives. We know exactly what we're trying to achieve. I think today's a great example of what this War Department is capable of doing. I was just another part of Florida today where we announced, you know, America's counter cartel conference. 18 countries coming together from central South America and the Caribbean coming together to fight cartels. That is something that is ongoing. We're focused there. We're focused in the Indo Pacific. We can mass combat power in centcom. EUCOM is able to support that as well. So we know we're laser focused on our hemisphere and our homeland. That's why we locked down the border. That's why we're working with partners to take on cartels. That's why we're sinking drug boats. That's why we're on the offense there. But the beautiful things about Combatant Commands is that, you know, Brad Cooper's laser focused on Central Command, just like Frank Donovan is laser focused on Southern Command. We can do both. That's what a global power can do. Ultimately, this. This issue of Iran's nuclear pursuit and their unwillingness through negotiations to stop it was something President Trump has said for a long time, needs to be dealt with. And after 47 years, he's doing something that no other president was willing to do. And we're doing it overwhelmingly and we're doing it decisively, while also in other parts of the globe having the desired effects. I mean, take for example, what we displayed yesterday. The Iranian ship in the Indian Ocean sunk by Indo Pacom Another combatant command who coordinated with us in order to make that happen. So America's reach is global. Our focus here though, those missions, these missions are narrow, they're scoped and Admiral Cooper is well on his way to ensuring that we reach those objectives right here. Yes sir.

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (19:16)

Do the Ukrainians are talking about providing more costly interceptors given their experience, that's something that the Pentagon is looking for

Angie.com Announcer (19:25)

in can you walk us through a

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (19:27)

little bit about the how effective the

Nicole (19:29)

Lucas drones have been, what kind of

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (19:31)

targets they've hit and how much that's helped given that they're low cost alternative

Nicole (19:36)

to the more expensive helium.

Pete Hegseth (19:39)

Go ahead.

Angie.com Announcer (19:40)

Sure.

Admiral Brad Cooper (19:41)

I'm not familiar with the particular offer, but the interceptors in general, we've had a number of new capabilities being fielded. Obviously I'm not going to talk about it from an operational specific perspective of what those are, but I think you have seen over a period of time us kind of get on the other side of this cost curve on drones in general. If I just walk back a couple of years, you remember what you used to always hear, we're shooting down a $50,000 drone with a $2 million missile. These days we're spending a lot of time shooting down $100,000 drones with $10,000 weapons from ours. So that's one aspect of it, Lucas, indispensable, as many of you know. And if you don't know, this was an original Iranian drone design. We captured it, pulled the guts out, sent it back to America, put a little made America on it, brought it back here and we're shooting at the Iranians. Good targets.

Pete Hegseth (20:33)

Good targets, absolutely. Right there, yes.

Nicole (20:36)

Thank you so much, Secretary. President Trump in his first speech after the launch of the Operation Epitome Fury, he addressed Iranian people and he said

Pete Hegseth (20:47)

that there is going to be a

Nicole (20:48)

time for you to come out, but it's not now. Stay home. It's not safe. I want to know if there is a timeline for that, that you're going to urge Iranian people to come out, how that is going to play out and how are you going to protect the protesters? You know that they're going to be

Pete Hegseth (21:06)

shot probably at V business in January.

Nicole (21:09)

That's what happened. How are you going to protect and support the protesters? And Admiral, I have one question for you. How are you going to minimize the civilian harms? We have a lot of evidence that the BASI units, IRGC commanders, they are now gathering in schools and hospitals in purely residential areas because their headquarters are bombarded. They are ruined, of course. So how are you going to protect the civilians while you're attacking the IRGC people?

Pete Hegseth (21:44)

Part, I would just say on the protests, obviously, a lot Iranian people. The Iranian people showed a lot of courage in those protests. And we saw the Iranian regime was revealed for what it is in the way they reacted to that. The world saw that. No one's done more than President Trump to reopen the opportunity for those who want a free Iran to. To do so. Ultimately, it's common sense, as he said up front, don't go out and protest while bombs are dropping inside Tehran and elsewhere. So there will come a moment where he determines or they determine that it's the time to seize that advantage. But there's a lot of things we're doing and the Israeli military is doing, targeting those individuals who are targeting those who protest. The more you do that and you erode their will and you erode their capabilities, the more you create an opportunity for people to boldly stand up.

Admiral Brad Cooper (22:33)

Yeah, I would just reinforce the point. We're targeting the people. We're targeting the headquarters and the people who are targeting the protesters. You know, first and foremost, I'd also just double down on the president's comments that he previously made to the people. Stay in your homes, keep things calm, you know, stay out of the way. There's a lot of US And Israeli capacity coming over. We're hitting a lot of targets. The best thing for them to do for right now is just to lay low right here.

Nicole (23:01)

Secretary, one common outcome of American military

John Heilman (23:04)

action in the past has been taking in thousands of refugees into the American homeland. And I'm wondering if there's any safeguards put in place to make sure that

Angie.com Announcer (23:14)

the American people aren't having to have

John Heilman (23:16)

another wave of refugees from the Middle east or anywhere else come and stay here.

Pete Hegseth (23:23)

I think it's safe to say there's no plan for a wave of new Middle Eastern refugees to the United States of America. I think, as the President has pointed out for a long time, there are a lot of countries in this, in the region who would be capable of providing that kind of support if need be. But that's certainly not something we're planning on. Yeah, back there.

Admiral Brad Cooper (23:41)

Yeah.

Pete Hegseth (23:42)

Yes, sir. Michael and Washington Times wanted to ask, I know, you know, separate Gumby is always of a truism in the military.

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (23:49)

Did the British decision to refuse Diego Garcia have any impact on the mission itself? Did you have to adjust, or were you able to just completely, you know, go with the mission without even worrying about that?

Pete Hegseth (24:02)

Well, as the president stated, it was unfortunate that the Brits didn't from day one say, hey, go ahead and have access. But we got there, we got there. And that's now part of the way that we're operationalizing bomber runs. And as part of the when we say more to come, it's more fighter squadrons, it's more capabilities, it's more defensive capabilities, and it's more bomber pulses more frequently. The amount of firepower over Iran and over Tehran is about to surge dramatically. And part of it is that we're going to have even more basing. And it's not just the UK We've had other friends step up, and we're grateful for that. Maybe, maybe one more right here. The Aziri president earlier today basically authorized

Admiral Brad Cooper (24:45)

his minister of defense to begin preparing

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (24:47)

troops for some type of retaliatory action

Nicole (24:49)

at the airport strait.

Mike Schmidt (24:51)

Has the Department of War and CENTCOM

Angie.com Announcer (24:53)

been working on deconflicting with the Azeri

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (24:54)

if they were to meet that or

John Heilman (24:56)

attempt something in retaliation?

Pete Hegseth (24:59)

I'm sure there are plans and I'll let the admiral speak to that. But that does allow me to kind of address this idea that the war might be expanding or there's chaos and nothing could be further from the truth. If anything, what Iran is doing by targeting allied countries that would otherwise want to stay out of this, they've actually pulled them into the American orbit. So now you've got UAE and Qatar and Bahrain and Saudi and Kuwait and others saying, hey, we're with you. Here's we'll shoot with you, we'll fly with you, we'll defend with you. We'll allow you more basing and other, a lot of which, you know, we can't talk about and won't talk about, but it's actually firming up the unity of the resistance in order to focus exactly where we need to. So this idea that it's expanding or going, no, it's actually. It's actually simplifying in a number of ways exactly what we need to achieve and how we'll achieve it. I don't know if you anyone like

Admiral Brad Cooper (25:51)

that how we'll get out of policy, ahead of policy in terms of what we might do. What I will point out is this is now the 12th country that Iran has attacked, 12 countries. And it goes right back to the secretary's point. Those 12 countries are none too happy. And I look forward to working with all the partners who are willing to join us in this.

Pete Hegseth (26:09)

I would just close by saying, Mr.

Nicole (26:11)

Secretary, one more question. Would you. What is your message to Americans who are concerned about security here at home with the change up that we're going to see at the Department of Homeland Security.

Pete Hegseth (26:21)

Well, I think, I think Kristi Noem did an excellent job over there securing our border and keeping us focused on threats and President making a change. We all serve at the pleasure of the President. I'm sure Mark Wayne Mullen will do a fantastic job. He's been a friend of mine for a long time. But Christie did a great job setting us up for success. So I don't have any concerns about whether or not the homeland will be covered down on. And I'll just end by saying I wish every American could get a chance to see what we see. I had a chance to go into the control room, into the tactical operations center, go see these young men and women that are doing this, the dedication that they show at every level, the way they've refined their craft. And now I'm talking to a young colonel who's iterating on how we target and how we find and fix different aspects of what the Iranians are trying to do. They don't know what they're up against. And if they think they've got it solved for, they're wrong. And ultimately the combination of our ingenuity, the skill, the professionalism, the discipline, and then the sheer weight of the capabilities of the US military, what you're going to see may look routine. It may start to be like, oh, another boat. Oh, another launcher. Oh, another drone facility. What it takes to do this with the precision that we do is world class. No one else can do it. And it's world class Americans like the ones I saw here, like the ones that are coming home, that we're going to greet home, that are the engine of what makes our country great. And so I'm so grateful for folks like those here at centcom, at Central Command who are under your command. Thank you for your decisive leadership. And all I'll say to you is what I say to them. Keep going. Because the President and myself, we have your back. Thank you, Adwin. Appreciate it.

Admiral Brad Cooper (28:02)

Thanks very much.

Nicole (28:03)

Mr. Secretary, how is this operation going

John Heilman (28:05)

to ensure Iran never gets a nuclear weapon?

Nicole (28:07)

We have been watching Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth and the CENTCOM commander Brad Cooper hold a briefing on the war in Iran. We're back with Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. David Frum is here. John Heilman is here. Alex Wagner is here. General Hertling, let me come back to you. The headline seems to be that we have barely started Pete Hexath saying over and over again, everything that you will see is intensifying, from the bombing raids to the targets to the targeting. I heard one objective articulated by Admiral Cooper, and it was the destruction of ballistic missile capabilities. 35 countries have ballistic missile capabilities, so that was striking. But just in terms of how long you heard them discuss or what you heard them discuss, how long does it take to carry out just what they publicly stated they had planned as imminent?

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling (29:08)

The targeting packages that Admiral Cooper talked about is something that goes on in every headquarters. It's conducted conflict. They plan those through intelligence assessments. They look at the targets, they look at the best weapon system to put on those targets. And it was interesting to me, Nicole, that the Secretary said at one point, Admiral Cooper has his operational plan, and he does, and he's executing it extremely well. He gave a very succinct and good briefing outlining the kinds of war fight they are conducting right now. That's all good. There's no question of that. I have no question after serving four decades in the military, that they are executing this mission with aplomb, that they're doing it extremely well. And all the people that the Secretary talked about in the headquarters at CENTCOM and in the forward locations are executing what they have been training to do for years. That is their mission. The one thing I didn't hear, though, Nicole, and this is the important part, what is the strategy? What is all this killing about? Is it just about destroying all of the missiles and the weapon systems and the barriers and the ballistic missiles, as you just said? Is it striking Iranian targets at every opportunity, like the boat they sunk in the Indian Ocean? Is it looking to shut the country down? And even though the population has been told to stay indoors, which they probably haven't heard because there's no TVs or radios working inside of Iran, you still have to concern yourself with what happens next. When the bombs start falling, you can destroy every single target you go after. That does not win a war. There still is no indication of what the strategy is, what should be the outcome and hope, Hoping that someone steps up or hoping that there's a leader that says, I'm now in charge of Iran after all this is over, after you've been pounding it so far for six days, the potential for up to eight weeks is going to limit the amount of people that are going to want to step forward. The other thing I mentioned, I actually saw a map, unclassified version. I want to make sure you know that of the city of Tehran and the amount of Targets they have struck inside that city that has millions of citizens. It could not have avoided collateral damage. It's just not possible. They are striking all the right headquarters, the irgc, the Basij, the police stations, all the security forces. But there are people living in that city, too. The last thing I'll say, Nicole, I wrote down at the beginning of the secretary's speech. He basically said, the will of the American military is sky high. And that's true. He said something like that. But then he claimed that the will of the American people and the will of the American government are 100% behind them. I'm not sure that's true. We are behind the warriors. We are behind what they are trying to do. But again, the American people's will is important. They haven't been told what the objective is. The American government, if you're just talking about the executive branch, it's obviously, it's obvious they're behind it. The Congress of the United States writ large is not behind it. So I would question the American will. And as we've talked before, Clausewitz said, you have to have a great military, you have to have the will of the citizenry behind you, and you have to have the support of the United States government. Right now, we have one of three of those. So that doesn't lead toward good strategy execution.

Nicole (32:55)

In fact, 60% of Americans do not approve of going to war with Iran, and only 26% of Americans, according to a poll from February of 2026, approve of the gentleman who uttered those words. Pete Hegseth, let me bring you in on this, John Heilman. He also said, Pete Hegseth, quote, authorities are maxed out and munitions are full up. Let me read you this headline from the Wall Street Journal. When the US Military's top general laid out the risk to President Trump of launching a major and extended attack on Iran, one of the issues he flagged was America's stockpile of munitions that is being put to the test as the US Races to destroy Iran's missile and drone force before it runs out of interceptors to fend off Tehran's retaliation, current and former officials and analysts say. What do you make of what we heard from Pete Hegseth this afternoon?

John Heilman (33:58)

Well, Nicole, there are so many questions that are begged when you use phrases like maxed out. You know, I've heard Pete Hegseth, I'm almost certain in the last few days, talking about munitions and saying that we have an infinite capacity. I know the guy went to Princeton, but apparently his grasp of vocabulary Sometimes is a little lacking. I mean, we do not have infinite capacity. By definition, we have finite capacity. That doesn't mean we don't have enough capacity to fight this war. Doesn't mean that we can't fight this war and still have enough munitions to handle other security threats around the world. But the point that I'm trying to make is when you hear him say that, just as when we heard Marco Rubio talk about how the threat from Iran was imminent, but it was off in the future somewhere, again, these words don't mean what you think they mean, sir. Imminent and off in the future are not the same thing. They're actually at odds, those pieces of language. And so what it raises is a bunch of. It raises more questions. These uses of these words and the way they talk about this raise more questions than they answer. And they raise significant doubts, I think not just in my mind, but in a lot of minds about how credible the people who are enunciating these statements, making these claims. I think you would need to have a lot of follow up and would need to know a lot more about what is true in these cases to be able to really evaluate some of the things that Pete Hags this is saying. That was the main thing that struck me is that there's just a massive credibility again, given the way this last week has gone and the absence of articulating anything like a clear, consistent, not internally contradictory, not incoherent case for war, which is what going to Congress would have been good for the administration if it had a real case to make, to be able to stand up in front of the Congress, to get the support of the Congress and then be kind of compelled to make the public argument for what we're doing here. That would have been, if they had a credible case for this, it would have been good for them to do that in terms of building public support. They have instead not made that case publicly. And to the extent they talk about things in public, they say 35 different things. And a lot of those things are literally at odds with each other, in addition to being kind of difficult to even really parse what they mean. So we have here a familiar thing. In cases of war fighting, I would say in many cases in America we have a credibility gap. And it's very hard to kind of, to really size up what to say about Pete Haggis. You can have various tonal objections to tonal objections to the way that he presents himself, but the more fundamental thing is can we believe the things that they're saying and on the basis if you take the administration as a whole over the course of the last year, and certainly if you take Donald Trump over the course of entire political career, the answer to that question is at least the default setting should be no.

Nicole (36:56)

I want to bring Alex and David from into this conversation. I have to sneak in a quick break before I do that. We'll be back on the other side of that. Also ahead for us, we'll get to the other big political story of the day, the firing of Homeland Security Secretary Christine got a shout out from Pete Hexith. I'll have to check to see if her approval rating is higher than his dismal 26% in the break to see what that shout out really means. Everyone sticks around Dudley and White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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Nicole (39:03)

we're back. We're all back. I'm David Frum. Let me read from your terrifying piece. You write this in the Atlantic quote The paradox of Trump's Iran attack. Some of his supporters are circulating a plan to use emergency powers to seize presidential control at the 2026 congressional elections. His party would likely lose badly if those elections were free and fair. Now there's a genuine military emergency at hand of a kind that federal courts have historically deferred to. It's frightening to imagine the sinister domestic use that Trump will make of these powers, especially if Trump's war lasts long.

Admiral Brad Cooper (39:36)

Yeah.

Nicole (39:36)

Please say more.

Angie.com Announcer (39:38)

All right, well, the two stories of the day that you've highlighted is two stories. The press conference and the departure of Kristina are one story. Because here's the thing to worry about. Even if you're someone who's broadly sympathetic to the need to free Iran from the terrifying regime that has ruled misruled it for so long. There was a mass shooting in Austin a couple of weekends ago. We now have an alleged shooter, and the alleged shooter was taken. There's a photograph of him in a shirt wearing the Iranian flag. Now, I don't suppose for a minute that the alleged shooter in Austin had anything to do with the Iranian government, but Iran is the world's largest state sponsor of terror. The United States is now engaged in a global war with Iran. They have in the past struck on the American homeland. They could do so again. And at this moment, what you really need at the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Taking Care of the Homeland, is someone professional, honest, competent, but also dedicated to protecting the liberties of the American people against false or fictitious threats. There's a real worry here. This is the thing that worries me most about this war, that in trying to free Iranians in Iran, a noble objective, if that's the objective, the United States is at danger of risking freedoms at home because you have an administration that is contemptuous of American freedoms, a Department of Homeland Security that is run by people who have no business anywhere near the repressive apparatus of the American government. And there's going to be justified fear of Iranian terrorism that can be used as a resource for people who want to then take exaggerated fears of Iranian terrorism and use it as a weapon against freedoms and against free elections in 2026.

Nicole (41:15)

Alex, it is shaping up to be the nightmare scenario.

Alex Wagner (41:20)

Yeah.

Nicole (41:21)

Yes.

Alex Wagner (41:22)

But I will say, Nicole, I mean, I'm old enough to remember in 2016 when Trump was the person advocating fiercely and loudly and on the Internet against foreign entanglements and foreign intervent. And one of the things that proved so durable for Trump was his narrative about the corruption of the elites and how they were content to spend money freely and have the working class go to war and do the hard work of defending democracy. And now that entire prospect has been inverted. Trump is spending a billion dollars already on this ill conceived Iranian lark. I don't even know what to call it. We have no idea what the goal is. It's, as I can understand it, more an exercise in EAs burnishing than anything else, letting Trump pick the next successor regardless of whether the Iranian people actually want that or not. And in the meantime, Pete Hegseth, who clearly spends his mornings putting molding paste in his hair and not actually, I don't know, fighting on the front lines of Tehran, is out here at press conferences saying our will is ironclad and the timeline is our own. Well, that's easy to say if you don't have to be one of the working class Americans, sending your son or daughter to the meat grinder in service of Donald Trump's ego. I mean, the expansion of blood and treasure is something Americans are not on board with as it concerns foreign wars. And it seems to be something Donald Trump has totally forgotten. And it absolutely plays into the narrative of the corruption of elites. Here's Donald Trump building ballrooms, spending Americans taxpayer money on a project completely of his own confection, while we just hemorrhage blood and treasure all over again.

Nicole (43:03)

I mean, David Frum, to the, to the points you and Alex are both making, Trump wins in 15. I mean, he really wins by the beginning of 16 because he is the one in a sea of what was in normal times viewed as a rather healthy offerings, if you will. Jeb Bush was running. Chris Christie was running. Marco Rubio was running. Lindsey Graham was running. I'm sure no one watching the show thinks any of them are good options, but my point is that there were a lot of choices in 2016. The single reason Donald Trump wins is because it wasn't just a country that had turned against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It was the Republican Party. Those views against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have not softened, they have hardened. They have also launched the political identities and careers of J.D. vance and Pete Hegses.

Angie.com Announcer (43:57)

Yeah, well, if you were fool enough in 2016 to believe a word Donald Trump said, that's a you problem, that's not a him problem. He's the one thing he's always been very upfront about is that you cannot trust him. He would end his rallies by reading the Snake parable. You knew I was a snake when you took me in. Yeah, he told you so. So Donald Trump in his first term fought an extended war in Iraq and northern Syria, Iraq and Syria, against isis. He inherited that war from President Obama. Donald Trump continued it. He continued the war in Afghanistan, which he did not stop. He dropped larger ordinance in Afghanistan than his predecessors had done. He fought an undeclared war with Iran. He killed Qasem Soleimani In 2020, the commander of the Quds terror force. Maybe a good move, by the way, but not, yeah, I think definitely a good move, but not the act of an isolationist. That was all blather and if you were fool enough to believe it, jokes on you. He told you not to trust him. Now here's the moment of reckoning that is coming for everyone, for the country. As has been said, this war is supposed to be costing a billion dollars a day. There is money in the pipeline to pay for it. But sooner or later, regardless of whether Donald Trump asked for Congress's permission in advance, he's going to have to come back to Congress for supplemental appropriation. And the question for everybody at that point will be do you try to stop the war mid course or do you, despite the way that it was launched, without permission, without an explanation, do you try to make the best of what's to come? Because that request is coming probably in a few weeks for some big amount of money as a supplemental and Congress there aren't there? There is. The Republicans are not united in favor of it. So the voting coalition to vote the supplemental. Maybe you can get it through the Senate with all Republican votes, but in the House, he's going to need Democratic votes to pass the supplemental if it passes.

Nicole (45:45)

Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you for being here for the better part of the hour. David, Alex and John, stick around. When we come back, the line, Christine Gnome, Corporate. That may have cost her her job and it apparently had nothing to do with calling two American citizens killed by federal agents domestic terrorists. We'll get back to Nome's firing after a quick break.

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Pete Hegseth (47:42)

the President approved ahead of time you spending $220 million running TV ads across the country in which you are featured prominently.

Nicole (47:53)

Yes, sir. We went through the legal processes. Did it correct the president? Yes, he did.

Pete Hegseth (47:59)

I'm not saying you're not telling the truth. It's just hard for me to believe, knowing the president as I do, that you said, Mr. President, here's some ads

Nicole (48:09)

I've cut and I'm going to spend

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$220 million running him. That he would have agreed to that.

Nicole (48:19)

She's of course in full glam on a horse, riding it around. Two days after that exchange and DHS Secretary Kristi Noem is out. She has been fired. She's on her way to or. She is now the former secretary of dhs. Donald Trump denied signing off on that expensive ad campaign and then a short time he fired her. So it will be Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen's job, now, pending confirmation by the Senate, to lead the Department of Homeland Security, an agency squarely focused on Donald Trump's very unpopular mass deportation agenda. We're back with David, John and Alex. Alex, so much, so much to mull. Let's start with Kristi Noem and then we'll do. And we'll do her replacement.

Alex Wagner (49:12)

Yeah, I mean, on its face, this appears to be a corruption issue because Kristi Noem funneled $220 million to the strategy Group, which is a group run. The CEO of the Strategy Group is married to her DHS spokesperson. The Strategy Group was instrumental in Kristen Ome's 2022 gubernatorial campaign. They cut ads for her, again, paid with state money while she was governor in 2023. I mean, the level of corruption here, quite obvious. However, I think what it's really about is ego. Right? There is only room for one big dog on the main stage and that big dog is Donald Trump. And you see John Kennedy, the senator, in that, in that hearing yesterday, I don't want to say masterfully because I'm not sure anything John Kennedy does is masterful, but basically using Trump as a cudgel, Trump's ego is a cudgel with which to beat Chrissy Noem. And saying the big dog never would have approved you taking out a multi million dollar ad campaign to burnish your own credentials, would he? And she's put in the awkward position of basically lying and saying, you know, no, he was okay with it. Trump is never okay with any of his cabinet secretaries taking the limelight. And I wish it was a move, you know, driven by the fact that she is completely corrupt. In addition to the strategy group, there are myriad other examples of this which we've talked about on this show, Nicole, including blankies that result in people getting fired or blankies not being there resulting

Nicole (50:34)

in people not getting moved from one private jet to the other.

Alex Wagner (50:38)

I think that's the thank you for putting a finer point on it. Her boyfriend looking for official DHS guns. Her boyfriend Corey Lewandowski, not really legally being entitled to have the job that he does at dhs. But I really genuinely think this is. Trump doesn't like when other people have the limelight, when other people are making things inconvenient for him. And so in the way that he does, he banished her to a job completely fabricated, called the Shield of the Americas, which I guess is like an off brand Marvel franchise. I don't even know what it is. I'm surprised he didn't just make her deputy ambassador to Greece and send her along the way with Kimberly Guilfoyle. But it's inconvenient to be a woman like Kristi Noem right now.

Nicole (51:20)

John Heilman, you can either get a quick minute or I can tell everybody that we're not done. We are all going to carry over the top of the hour. You pick.

John Heilman (51:30)

Well, it's up to you. Is your show Nicole?

Nicole (51:32)

All right. All right, tell me. Okay. Okay, I'm going to take it back then. It's my show. And Ari Melbourne is supposed to be here in four minutes. He isn't going to be here. So you are going to see all four of us for a little bonus panel. We need to fit in a quick break and make a quick plan for what we're going to talk about on the other side. It's going to be exciting. Don't go anywhere.

Alex Wagner (52:00)

Hi, everyone.

Nicole (52:01)

I'm still here. It's now 6 o' clock in New York. I don't usually get to say it, so 6 o' clock in New York. Normally, you'd be seeing my dear colleague and my friend Ari Melbourne right now. He's a few minutes delayed. He's coming. Don't go anywhere. You tuned in for him, as I'm sure you all did. He will be here in a minute. But we're going to get to a story that was buried in all the news of the last 24 hours with Pete Hegseth and Admiral Cooper having their press conference on the war in Iran and the breaking news about the firing of DHS Secretary Christi Noem. It's a story that says a whole lot today about the state of the rule of law in our country. New York Times is reporting about the efforts the Department of Justice made to find something, anything but something that did not exist about former President Joe Biden to the point that they opened a criminal investigation. From that reporting, quote, the Justice Department, after calls by Donald Trump to investigate Joe Biden, scrutinized whether Biden and his aides broke the law in using the auto pen to sign presidential documents, but was ultimately unable to move forward with making a case, according to three people briefed on the matter. We want to bring in New York Times investigative reporter Mike Schmidt. He's bylined on that reporting. David Frum, John Heilman, Alex Wagner are all doing overtime. And they're still with me. Mike, take me through what you and your colleagues are reporting on this.

Mike Schmidt (53:21)

Basically, this is the most recent failure by the Trump Justice Department to follow through on what Trump wants. They were not able to build a criminal case against former President Biden and his aides. To many legal folks, this was a pretty clear issue. There had been a Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel opinion that essentially allowed for this to happen. The president, as we all know, has a lot of immunity in official acts. And while Trump had pressured the department to do this, the department was ultimately unable to essentially criminalize behavior that he did not like. And this is part of a pattern that we see now where the president is unable to get the Justice Department to bring the indictments that he wants or have those indictments stick. And he has really set out to do retribution. It's not that retribution has not had damage to those that have been criminally investigated and targeted by his department because there is a cost for these individuals, even if they are not charged or the cases don't go forward. But at the end of the day, Trump has not been able to jail his rivals in the way that he's wanted.

Nicole (54:43)

Mike, when, when, when you and your colleagues break these stories, it's this window into absolute insanity inside the Department of Justice. And, you know, it sort of runs on a parallel track with the efforts to indict six Democratic lawmakers who made a video telling men and women of the military not to follow illegal orders. The, I don't know, half a dozen times to try to indict Tish James. The efforts to or the successful effort to indict Jim Comey. Is this all that they're doing? I mean, I think there's also activity in Florida to try to investigate former President Obama and people around him. How much of the department's resources are tied up in losing retribution prosecutions.

Mike Schmidt (55:30)

Look, we know that this is something that consumes the time of top prosecutors in many different offices, and we know that this is a Justice Department that is also distracted by other matters. Sdny, the prosecutor's office in Manhattan has spent an enormous amount of time on the Epstein and the Epstein documents. We know that the U.S. attorney's office in Miami, as you were saying, has been working on this conspiracy investigation that goes all the way back to the Biden, the, the Obama years to see if there was this larger conspiracy that started with Russia that goes all the way through the documents investigation of Trump. We know that the department has been hollowed out at the top, both the Justice Department at the prosecutor level, but also at the FBI, where dozens and dozens of agents have been fired. And, you know, even more recently, those agents that had been dismissed right after Cash Patel most recently got into trouble. So this is a Justice Department, and we've written about this, but I'm not sure that it always comes through as clearly. Sometimes as we're seeing it, that is thinned out, that is under enormous amount of pressure. Agents and prosecutors don't want to touch anything that could blow up in their faces. And because of that, there are people in the department who are worried that the country is in a weaker position to deal with major frauds or major national security threats to the country because these offices are so knee deep in other things, are distracted by other matters, or are hollowed out.

Nicole (57:12)

I mean, John Heilman is such it's one of the few effective mile markers for how we have descended, how much worse off we are. In the past, even if you didn't like who won an election, you didn't like who they picked to be the Attorney general, you had some ability to trust that underneath that political post. And there are very few at the Department of Justice for people who have been prosecuting drug cartels or prosecuting cybercrimes or prosecuting and investigating child sex traffickers for a long, long, long time, for the entirety of their careers. That's what they've ripped out. And it's like yanking all the cords out of the wall. There's nothing.

John Heilman (57:54)

Nicole, I don't want to minimize the serious point you're making, but this morning at around 6:45am I walked into the green room and saw your husband Mike there. And he was, he was about to go on Morning Joe and he walked out there to go on the show. I was going to go on a little bit after him. And I looked up and saw Chiron that said the Justice Department had realized it couldn't make the case on the auto pen. And I was like, you know, we are. This is the most. This is. Of all the mendacious stuff that the DOJ has done, this is the thing that's just the stupidest. I mean, it is literally of all of the stupid stuff, of all the like, petty, trivial, totally divorced from any kind of legal logic or any kind of real consequence in the world, that just complete retribution. It's completely just, you know, blowing smoke or spreading around the fire hose of crap that they do. This is the one that has in some ways set me off most because it's just a ludicrous thing, this idea that somehow Joe Biden, that the use of the auto pen would somehow be the basis for a legal case in the court of law in America. And I looked at that Chiron and I thought, you know, we talk about Earth 1 and Earth 2 on the show all the time. I'm like, we're on Earth 3. And Earth 3 turns out to be the stupidest of the earths. Like, if this is like, now we're doing Chirons. Breaking news. The Justice Department can't prosecute Joe Biden for using an auto pen. That every single president in our lifetime, since they invented the auto pen, every president has used the auto pen. I've never, even when I try to put myself in their heads, I can't quite understand what even the most fantastical, hallucinatory, ridiculous basis, like if you were trying to spin a rationale for why that would be illegal. I can't get there. I mean, there may be some place to get that I could convince myself, but it would take some kind of drug that I have not yet discovered. And I have tried hard to find drugs that are that strong. They're not out there. So I'm piecing out on this story. I just can't believe we're spending any time talking about it on the way up or on the way down.

Nicole (60:12)

David from I'll give you the last word, but I'm going to ask you to build on Heilman's take, not mine. I mean, I spoke to someone who's otherwise pretty smart. He's actually a very, very senior media executive over the summer, and he said something. I didn't even know this. I mean, I actually do try to track the conspiracies on the right, especially after Elon Musk's tweet about Donald Trump being in the Epstein files. I was like, whoa, I'm missing a whole bunch of stuff. And I'm now pretty steeped in the pyramid conspiracy. I miss I will confess to missing the auto pen conspiracy theories. But this was an otherwise rather intelligent person who said, oh, what do you think about the auto pen conspiracy? And I was like, what are you talking about?

Angie.com Announcer (60:57)

Well, when you get in the Department of Justice working on the auto pen conspiracy, you keep them too busy to ask the question that I've been thinking about all day, which is the former, the now former Secretary of Homeland Security steered 200 plus million dollars to seemingly fake, bogus companies controlled by her friends to. For work that didn't need to be done. One of the questions, I would think, if I were prosecutors, I wonder, did any of that money possibly make its way back to her? That's the question. Did she just send them a very, very nice. The contractors, the bogus contractors just send her a very nice thank you note or did they express their gratitude with flowers or maybe even something more? That's something you would want. That's just an obvious line of inquiry. The Department of Justice will not be allowed and won't have time to look

Nicole (61:40)

into even if they wanted to. It's such a good point. Mike Schmidt. It's a great piece of reporting, David, from John Heilman and Alex Wagner. You've done the extraordinary. You've served your time on my show. You've hung around for a little bit of an after party. We got to moonlight in some of Ari's hour. I want to thank all of you. I want to thank our viewers for rolling with all of us so seamlessly. We are so grateful to all of you. Thank you for letting us into your homes tonight.

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