“A moment that will test democracy”

Summary

Deadline: White House – Episode Summary: “A Moment That Will Test Democracy”
Release Date: June 3, 2025

Introduction

In this pivotal episode of Deadline: White House, host Nicolle Wallace delves into the escalating tensions within the Trump administration and its implications for American democracy. Drawing from her extensive political experience, Wallace facilitates a compelling discussion with key figures who shed light on the current political landscape.

Miles Taylor’s Stand Against the Trump Administration

The episode opens with Nicolle Wallace introducing Miles Taylor, formerly known as Anonymous Miles Taylor, a whistleblower and former Trump official. Taylor has recently filed a complaint urging the Inspectors General of the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice to investigate the legality of an executive order targeting him and former Trump cybersecurity chief Chris Krebs.

• Key Quote:
  Miles Taylor [02:06]: “Day 594 of the Trump administration brings a first-person takedown of a president, anonymously and in print.”

Taylor recounts how, in April, President Donald Trump signed an executive order revoking the security clearances of Taylor and Krebs, citing their public statements that the 2020 election was “the most secure in history.” Taylor interprets these actions as part of a broader retribution campaign aimed at silencing dissent within the administration.

• Notable Insight:
  Taylor highlights the personal and professional toll of these executive orders, explaining how it has forced him to become the sole income earner in his household, necessitating the launch of a legal defense fund to cover mounting legal expenses.

Internal Resistance Within the Trump Administration

Wallace and Taylor discuss the unprecedented internal resistance within the Trump administration. Taylor emphasizes that the executive orders against him and Krebs are intended to create a “modern blacklist,” aiming to ruin the lives of those opposing Trump.

• Key Quote:
  Miles Taylor [04:47]: “He wants to create a modern blacklist and have that blacklist ruin people's lives.”

Taylor elaborates on how Trump’s administration systematically targets individuals across various sectors—including law firms, universities, media outlets, and nonprofits—to send a chilling message to potential dissenters.

Impact on Individuals and Institutions

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of Trump’s retribution campaign. Taylor shares personal anecdotes about social isolation and the erosion of support systems, noting how fear induced by the administration’s actions leads to self-censorship and withdrawal from public discourse.

• Notable Quote:
  Miles Taylor [09:27]: “It really is a day-to-day thing... social isolation is very hard.”

Taylor underscores the danger of such tactics, likening them to autocratic methods used to silence opposition and suppress free speech.

Legal and Democratic Implications

Barbara McQuaid, a former U.S. attorney and legal expert, joins the discussion to analyze the legal ramifications of the executive orders. She critiques the Justice Department’s departure from established protocols, emphasizing that investigations should be based on evidence of wrongdoing, not personal vendettas.

• Key Quote:
  Barbara McQuaid [21:10]: “We don't investigate people, we investigate crimes.”

McQuaid highlights the violation of the Domestic Investigations Operations Guide, which mandates that investigations must have a factual basis rather than being driven by political motives.

Harvard vs. Trump Administration: A New Front

The episode transitions to a scandal involving Harvard University, where the Justice Department has reportedly targeted the Harvard Law Review for alleged discrimination against white men. Michael Bender from The New York Times provides an in-depth report on how a former student and current White House staffer, Daniel Wasserman, acted as a cooperating witness in the investigation.

• Notable Insight:
  Amanda Carpenter [35:15]: “This is an all-out attempt for a hostile takeover of one of America’s premier places of higher education.”

The administration’s aggressive tactics against academic institutions are portrayed as part of a broader strategy to impose its political agenda and punish perceived enemies.

Democratic Party’s Response and Strategy

Nicolle Wallace engages with former Republican Congressman Joe Walsh and former Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms to explore the Democratic Party’s efforts to counter Trump’s influence. Both guests advocate for a united front comprising moderates, progressives, and even conservatives to defend democracy and the rule of law.

• Key Quote:
  Joe Walsh [51:00]: “If at this time, all of us can't come together... then we'll never be able to fight.”

They discuss the importance of addressing tangible issues such as healthcare, economic stability, and protecting institutions from authoritarian overreach. The conversation emphasizes the necessity of building a broad coalition to effectively challenge Trump’s policies.

Economic Impact of Trump’s Policies

The episode delves into the adverse economic effects of Trump’s trade policies, highlighting rising consumer debt and increased reliance on Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) services to cover basic necessities.

• Key Quote:
  Miles Taylor [28:40]: “It's fear. Fear, fear, fear, fear.”

The guests criticize Trump’s erratic tariff policies, arguing that they have destabilized the economy and led to widespread financial insecurity among American families. Discussions include the decline in consumer confidence and the detrimental impact on small businesses.

Molly Jong-Fast’s Memoir: Personal Reflections Amid Political Turmoil

In a poignant segment, Barbara McQuaid discusses Molly Jong-Fast’s new memoir, How to Lose Your Mother: A Daughter’s Memoir. The book explores the complexities of growing up with a famous mother, Erika Jeong, and coping with her dementia diagnosis while battling personal health challenges.

• Notable Quote:
  Molly Jong-Fast [78:11]: “This is the story of the worst year of my life.”

McQuaid reflects on the profound emotional and psychological impacts depicted in the memoir, drawing parallels to the isolation and resilience discussed earlier in the episode.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up by reinforcing the critical juncture at which American democracy stands. Nicolle Wallace emphasizes the collective responsibility of citizens and leaders to resist authoritarian tendencies and uphold democratic principles.

• Final Thought:
  Miles Taylor [15:44]: “We can't let this become the norm.”

Wallace leaves listeners with a call to action, urging engagement and solidarity in the face of political adversity.

Key Takeaways:

• Whistleblower Risks: Miles Taylor’s courageous stand highlights the personal costs of challenging executive overreach.
• Institutional Integrity: Legal experts stress the importance of maintaining independent oversight to safeguard democratic norms.
• Political Strategy: Democrats are focusing on unity and addressing core issues to counteract Trump's divisive policies.
• Economic Consequences: Trump’s trade wars and economic policies are causing significant hardship for ordinary Americans.
• Personal Narratives: Molly Jong-Fast’s memoir adds a human dimension to the broader themes of resilience and vulnerability.

This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of the current political turmoil surrounding the Trump administration, the resilience of democratic institutions, and the ongoing fight to preserve American democratic values.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there, everyone. It's four o'clock in New York. Quote, we are in a moment that will test democracy for the ages. Those words are from the man who, without even identifying himself at first, dropped a political bombshell in the form of a warning to the country about Donald Trump that resonates to this hour. On this day, we are talking about the former Trump official who for a time was known as Anonymous Miles Taylor. Today he is filing a complaint asking the inspectors general of the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice to investigate the legality of the executive order levied against him. Back in April, Donald Trump signed an executive order inside the Oval Office targeting Taylor and former Trump cybersecurity chief Chris Krebs. They committed the sin in Donald Trump's eyes of saying that the 2020 election was the, quote, most secure in history. The executive order revoked their security clearances and tasked officials with investigating both Miles Taylor and Chris Krebs. According to Miles Taylor, the complaints are a test case to see whether independent watchdogs like the IG's offices are still actually independent or that they too have been taken off the playing field and co opted and corrupted by Donald J. Trump, something Taylor has now been warning about publicly at pretty high cost to himself for seven years. When he first wrote an op ed in the New York Times, as Anonymous, Taylor said Trump was amoral and impetuous, adversarial, petty and anti democratic. His comments that Trump cabinet members had discussed invoking the 25th Amendment had the entire country, or at least yours truly, googling exactly how the 25th amendment would work. It was without a doubt a political earthquake watch.

[Miles Taylor]

Day 594 of the Trump administration brings a first person takedown of a president, anonymously and in print.

[Nicole Wallace]

As this president is fond of saying.

[Miles Taylor]

The likes of which we have never seen before.

[Nicole Wallace]

In a stunning and unprecedented move, the.

[Amanda Carpenter]

New York Times is publishing a shocking.

[Nicole Wallace]

Anonymous op ed from a senior Trump administration official.

[Miles Taylor]

The people closest to the President of the United States are sending flashing red warning signals to the American people about the danger this man poses to the nation.

[Nicole Wallace]

Perhaps you can see the steam emerging from the White House at the moment.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Reportedly, Donald Trump's response to all of.

[Nicole Wallace]

This has been volcanic panic, nothing less. The sudden pulling back of the curtain of the very chaotic Trump White House confirmed what we thought we were seeing from the outside, that there was an active high level resistance within the Trump administration to Donald Trump's worst impulses and whims, something that Taylor warned would not happen in a second Trump term. In June of 2023, Taylor wrote this quote, people I spoke with predicted widespread career resignations under another MAGA presiden. The result will be a younger civil service without the knowledge, experience, or wherewithal to run government agencies. Mass resignations will be made worse by mass recriminations. A future MAGA president will purge careerists who dare to dissent against the commander in chief. Those mass recriminations in Trump 2.0 have included action against Taylor himself. According to Taylor, the Trump administration has found ways, big and small, to upend his life again, going so far as to fire a DHS official for attending his wedding. Taylor is, of course, just one of the many people who have found themselves on a list of people targeted by the Trump administration, a list that includes big law firms, universities, media outlets, nonprofits, political action committees. We could go on and on. Taylor calls the orders a, quote, a scalpel that they'll use to ruin the lives of individuals the president is opposed to. A first step in fighting back against Donald Trump's retribution campaign is where we begin with Myles Taylor. How are you doing, Nicole?

[Miles Taylor]

I appreciate you having me. We're getting through. It's been a bumpy road, but, you know, as you know, we've kind of done this show before. Coming out against Donald Trump was a rough and tumble exercise. He made it so. But we always knew if he got reelected, his goal would be revenge, and that's exactly what he's trying to carry out.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is he trying to do to you and your family?

[Miles Taylor]

Look, I think he wants to create a modern blacklist and have that blacklist ruin people's lives, because it's a lot of effort to go through with trying to pursue and prosecute hundreds of your enemies. All you need to do is try to successfully do that to a couple to send a message. And that's what some of his officials have said is the point of these executive orders against me and Chris Krebs are to send a message. And to a certain extent, that works. I mean, in the immediate wake of this, I'm the sole income earner in my household. I had to leave my job. My wife, who stayed home with our daughter, had to return to work so that we can buy diapers, so we can buy formula, so we can pay the mortgage. We had to go launch a legal defense fund because we don't think we can pay for the legal bills for this type of thing. And then there's the security threats, which I know you're all too familiar with, but you get crazies coming out of the woodwork from the MAGA side who will dox you and your family members and send threatening messages. And you never know which one of those is going to become the real thing. I'll add to that. Nicole, someone told us relatively recently you guys need to go update your last will and testament to name a guardian for your daughter. I will tell you that's not something you take lightly when you're sitting there with your wife and a lawyer signing documents to name a guardian in case the worst happens, because we don't know what's going to happen. That's how serious it is. And that's just being named on the blacklist. Charges haven't happened yet. They haven't raided our house yet. But that's what it looks like in modern day America. When the president adds you to that list.

[Nicole Wallace]

What do they think they're looking for if they proceed to try to scrounge through your life?

[Miles Taylor]

That's a big question. Because normally if you see some sort of criminal case or federal review taking place, you sort of know what they're looking into. Look, if you stole money from the petty cash drawer, you know you stole money from the petty cash drawer. In this case, it's an investigation without a predicate. It's an investigation meant to just be punitive. When this happened the day after Wall Street Journal came out and they called it a fishing expedition, and that's sort of how we feel that this is proceeding. We have no idea what they're going to try to find. But I can remember being in the Oval Office with Donald Trump, and I think I've shared this with you before is he talked about how in business you don't threaten to sue people because then they just blow you off. You sue them so they settle. And he said that to us. He talked about his view on getting leverage. And I suspect that's what they're trying to do right now. And it's very destructive, not just to us, but all the people around us that it affects.

[Nicole Wallace]

You have lawyers. You said you're raising money for a legal defense fund. What is that like? I mean, do you strategize with the legal team? Are they talking to the justice? I mean, are they trying to have more visibility into what is actually happening and whether it is, as you said, just an attempt to get you to bend the knee in some way? And would you ever do that?

[Miles Taylor]

Well, look, I think this is something that people really need to know and it's one of the reasons we're speaking out about this. Is my wife and I had a lot of conversations because people tell you, hey, keep your head down. Maybe it'll blow over. But we know this guy. We don't think this will blow over. And even if it did, I'm a guy from a small town in Indiana, and you don't just watch something this wrong happen and not say something. And we know that that means we're going to have to take more punches if we're out there. But this is just wrong. And one of the things I think people don't realize is the fear in the legal community right now makes it very, very hard for someone to go get the representation they need. Now, I'm lucky. I've had incredible people like Abby Lowell, who represented not only Jared Kushner, but Hunter B. All across the aisle. And a lot of different fantastic people come forward to help. But what if you're number 25 on that list? What if you're number 60 on that list and the President has ordered an investigation into you? Will you be able to get the legal support you need? I was lucky. An organization called Whistleblower Aid came forward. They've launched something called EndPresidentialRevenge.org as a place to go raise funds for people who are targeted for their public service by this White House. But if it wasn't for that support, we'd be in a very, very difficult position. And our first thought, I'm not going to lie, I mean, we sat there at the kitchen table after this order dropped. We were in the driveway when it happened, and we went inside and Hannah looked at me and she said, do you think we're going to lose the house? And I said, I don't know.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is your sort of getting through day to day? Like, how much are you looking at the horizon of when this ends? And how much are you just trying to put one foot in front of the other?

[Miles Taylor]

It really is a day to day thing. I mean, the other piece that I would share, which people don't talk about, and it's kind of humiliating to talk about, but I think it's important to talk about, is social isolation. And you hear about this when you read about autocracies. And it's kind of a textbook thing, okay? Dissidents and autocracies, they end up socially isolated, and that's the goal. But it's very foreign and remote until it happens to you. And I've had very close friends, very, very close friends call and tell me I'm going to need to keep my distance until this is all over.

[Nicole Wallace]

Why?

[Miles Taylor]

Because they've got a business interest, maybe with the federal government, because they're worried about the impact on their families. So that support system you think is going to be there with you in the trenches, whether it's through a divorce or a death or persecution from your government, starts to vanish. There are even some family members who you find out are skittish about being there. Given the gravity of the situation, that is very hard. And you end up with a very different circle than you imagined. Again, that's before there's charges, that's before there's anything but. I mean, we've spent the past two months totally watching the reimplosion of our lives and building back from that. But I tell you all this, Nicole, again, not so that people play the violin for me, but because it's as easy as the president signing his pen to a piece of paper to order a revenge investigation against an American right now. This could be happening to anyone. And that's why we've decided to step out. That's why we've decided to start taking legal steps, because we can't let this become the norm. No president of any political party should be able to just order revenge investigations and criminalize criticism. And that's what we want to try to stop.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's so it's terrifying to speak out when you've been targeted. And I remember I was swatted. We were swatted. And I remember the first time I said it on the show and George Stephanopoulos was on with the book and he said, well, I was swatted. And then someone else came on and said, I was swatted. But there's part of you when you're targeted, and that can feel very violent. Right. The law enforcement response. You, you know, it's scary. It's in your house, you know, you've got kids. And there is a piece of it where they hope that you'll feel frightened into silence and you won't have any community around being targeted. And as you said, that's also an autocratic tool. Despair and isolation are how the autocrat. They're the most efficient tools of an autocrat. I wonder how you feel about some of the folks you worked with most closely, people like John Kelly breaking his silence, going on tape and warning the whole country that Trump is fascistic to the core, as Spanis and Melaye also attested to. And then a lot of people you and I knew from Republican politics voted for him anyway.

[Miles Taylor]

Yeah, I think that at the end of the day, this leads to A conclusion that I've said before to folks and is ironic coming for me, of all people. But I think the biggest threat to free speech in this country is not Donald Trump at the moment. It is anonymity itself. It is people being anonymous and not speaking up. And that's how we got into this situation in the first place. That's how we had a guy that a lot of people in our former party felt like was unfit for public office rise all the way through the ranks of the party, while party leaders opposed it. They thought it was a joke, and he won the presidency. That's why Donald Trump was able to go forward with a lot of the unethical and now policies the courts have deemed to be illegal activities is because people didn't speak up. It's how he returned to the presidency. This is also how democracy dies, is if people hide behind their opinions and they don't share them publicly. And that was a lesson I learned in a difficult way through the anonymous exercise. Yes, that device drew attention, but I realized in the course of that I need to go out and own those words before the election. Otherwise it sends the wrong message that you can just hide. And I worry right now that we're in a situation where we could watch the death of free speech in the United States because it's as easy to suppress right now, again, as the stroke of the president's pen.

[Nicole Wallace]

What do you, when you pull the thread forward, having been in the Oval Office the first term and there were people like John Kelly and Don McGahn, you could disagree with them, and they all have their own flaws. But there is no one serving as any semblance of a breaking system on Donald Trump this time. What is going to happen this time?

[Miles Taylor]

Well, there's not. Those guardrails are gone. I don't think we can depend on the folks that are in the administration. I'd hoped for another conclusion. I mean, after this election, I had hoped we would see a lot of people go in and recommend that the president not undertake unlawful activities, unconstitutional activities. But as we've seen from recent court decisions, that hasn't happened. There's been a slew of decisions that the courts have already found to be illegal or unconstitutional. And so that guardrail is no longer there. So what do we have to depend on? Well, of course, the courts and the courts have been stepping up, but I think that's a very tenuous guardrail at the moment. I mean, I've been in the Oval when Donald Trump said, let's get rid of the judges, you know, we are one court decision away from Donald Trump saying forget it and ignoring the courts, and then we're in a full blown constitutional crisis. So what other levers do we have? It's one of the reasons why we sent this letter to the inspector generals of the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security is to say you are independent watchdogs whose role is supposed to assess whether things being carried about, carried out by those agencies are unlawful or not, are being done for persecution or not. Now, I don't know how the IG's are going to respond to this request, but it is a test for us to see is the system working? Are there those pieces that will still function despite the withering pressure of the White House on civil servants?

[Nicole Wallace]

And then the goal is if they show signs of life, they take this on from inside and the orders are rescinded. Is that the legal strategy?

[Miles Taylor]

Well, look, we hope so. I mean, we hope what they'll do is first send a message that if there are investigators, if there are public officials in these departments engaged in activity that is retributive in nature, violating the constitutional rights of people like me and Chris Krebs, that it will put them on notice that they need to cease and desist that type of activity. But more importantly, that it could shine a light on potential unlawful and inappropriate conduct and stop it in its tracks. Otherwise, these things could proceed behind the scenes. And yes, they could result in trumped up charges. It could result in, you know, even more dangerous precedent being set for people who speak out.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you have confidence that if the IGs at DHS and DOJ find what is, I mean, from the outside, obviously these are unlawful orders, executive orders against you and Chris Krebs. I mean, it feels like if they go to the tops of those departments, Pam Bonney and Kristi Noem are not guardrails. What happens if they find wrongdoing?

[Miles Taylor]

I think that's a really good question, and that's what we're going to find out is how those department heads respond to those independent inspectors general. If there is something, and that's an important thing, not just for the Congress to know, it's an important thing for the American people to know about whether the system is functioning. And I can't believe we have to have that conversation because I wouldn't have even imagined some order like this could get through the White House to the President in the first place. These are the types of things we were actively trying to persuade the president not to do in the first term is, Mr. President, this is illegal, Mr. President, this is immoral. Mr. President, this is unconstitutional. And so many of those pieces of paper got clawed back from his desk. Was it perfect? By God, it was not. It was a disaster. But this time around, they are getting through to his desk. He is signing them. He is criminalizing criticism. And I think there's a very slippery slope there already. The attorney general has cited the orders against me and Chris Krebs as the rationale for rolling back protections for journalists, protections that have been in place at the Department of Justice to prevent journalists from being surveilled, from having their devices taken with search warrants. Those have now been rolled back and they cited our orders for the reason for that. But it could go even more broadly. Who's to say that today the president won't decide to threaten a CEO he doesn't like, a nonprofit leader he doesn't like and say, I may order a federal investigation into you, but if you do what the law firms did or maybe some universities did, if you want to reach a deal with the White House, maybe we don't have to do that to you. That is wrong. That is un American. That's why we're stepping forward and we're trying to fight this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, they're walking. You're going to stay for the hour. They're walking up to the line of exactly that with Harvard. I want to say one thing about the isolation and the loneliness, because I think that is the thing that you hear from people that were out, that were around this table in the first term and really fear that what happened to you will happen to them. And I just wonder, and I guess I just would offer this table and these hours as a place where nobody should feel alone. I so admire your courage in making that point and being here. And I hope you know how many people watch this program are, if you can't see them or touch them, are certainly thinking about you and asking about you and supporting you and your wife and your little baby all the time.

[Miles Taylor]

It means more than you know. That's the other thing. It's a trope. But you realize who your true friends are, and that really gets you through.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right, you're going to stay for the hour. Right. Because we need your big brain, not just your experience. On the other end of Trump CEOs ahead for us, there is brand new reporting on just how far the Trump has been administration was willing to go. As I just mentioned, in its war with Harvard with a MAGA mole, essentially at the university now inside the White House. Plus the ambitious remaking of the Democratic Party, how its base is driving a new metamorphosis, and why one of our guests suggests that this is the fight of our times, what that looks like. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Michael Bender]

MSNBC presents a new original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with Jason Bateman and Rachel Maddow.

[Miles Taylor]

We are in a really important moment and we're an important place in it, and I'm glad that we're there together.

[Michael Bender]

The Best People with Nicole Wallace. Episodes one and two are available now for early access, ad free listening and bonus content. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Nicole Wallace]

Joining our conversation, writer and editor for Protect Democracy, Amanda Carpenter is here. Also joining us, Barbara McQuaid. She's a former U.S. attorney and professor at the University of Michigan Law School. Barb is also the author of Attack from How Disinformation Is Sabotaging America, which is out in paperback today. Miles is still here. Barbara McQuaid, it's a weird question, but how much has DOJ been sort of turned inside out and backward that this is happening?

[Joe Walsh]

Well, Nicole, of course we don't know all the things that are happening internally with investigations, but this is exactly the opposite of how DOJ is supposed to conduct its work. One of the most famous speeches ever given to federal prosecutors was by Robert Jackson. He was an attorney general, Nuremberg prosecutor, supreme Court justice. He is the gold standard. And one of the things that he told an assembly of U.S. attorneys in the Great hall at the Justice Department, that is gospel, at least until a recent day, was that we don't investigate people, we investigate crimes. And so you look at evidence, you look to see what happened, and then you try to figure out who might have done that sort of thing. The idea of instead saying, Miles Taylor is my enemy or Chris Krebs is my enemy, and now I'm going to find out what they might have done wrong, I'm going to investigate them, is exactly the opposite of how that is supposed to work. The Justice Department, of course, has incredible power of surveillance, the ability to look at all kinds of private data and other kinds of things. But since the Watergate era, the Justice Department has followed something called the Domestic Investigations Operations Guide that says they cannot begin an investigation on the basis of First Amendment protected activity. There first must be predication, a factual basis, that a crime has been committed or that there is a national security threat. You don't just pick a target and then see what you can pin on them.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, Amanda, that is in a democracy where the rule of law is healthy and strong. And I think you've been charting our. I don't even think regression is the right word progression towards something more autocratic. How do you see this?

[Amanda Carpenter]

Well, I don't think we can overlook the fact. I mean, we really have to spend some time explaining what an unconstitutional, unprecedented abuse of power Donald Trump is engaging in when he is deploying these executive orders in a manner to publish Miles Taylor and others by name. That is not supposed to be how executive orders. And what I really think is novel and interesting about the strategy that Miles is pursuing there is that, you know, they're spreading the aperture of responsibility for these questions. Donald Trump may want to do this, but he cannot do it alone. Right. He can't launch these investigations all by himself. He can write that piece of paper, but it is on a number of other people to carry that out. And so when we're asking for more oversight, you spread that aperture. Right. Because I think one of the biggest lessons from Trump 1.0 is that there are a lot of people willing to go along with Trump's misdeeds, unlawful, unconstitutional acts, as long as they weren't personally responsible for carrying them out. I'm thinking about Bill Barr resigning as Attorney General at the Last minute in December 2020. He was fine to go along with a lot of it until that fell directly within his realm of responsibility. And of course, this is a lot different because Donald Trump has surrounded himself with loyalists who are willing to carry out unlawful actions. But that's not everybody. It's not everybody. And so put the question to more people in the government. Correct. Because they do have responsibility, not just to be loyal to Donald Trump, to actually be loyal to the constitutional and take that to court and force those questions in an arena where people like Miles can win.

[Nicole Wallace]

Miles, what is your best guess or assessment of what it is that made him so mad at you?

[Miles Taylor]

It was that original opinion piece about the 25th Amendment. And I didn't even know how big of an impact it had had on him psychologically until after the administration. Someone who had not been a friend at the time, Stephanie Grisham, who had attacked me from the podium after the fact that we became very close friends. And she shared with me, she said, you have no idea in the years afterwards how often he sat in that room in the Oval Office and looked around and wanted to know, is one of these people. Anonymous that's incredible. I think that it really stuck with him. But also when it comes to our defense in this situation, in some ways, Donald Trump, as he always does, gives up the ghost very early on because in the immediate wake of publishing that opinion piece and doing the thing that drives him crazy, which is telling the truth about him, he published a seven letter tweet in all capital letters treason. From the moment I spoke out, he had already decided, this is subversive. This is treason, which is a crime in the United States that's punishable by death. Fast forward seven years. As he sat there in the Oval Office and signed this order, he already gave his assessment of what he thought the verdict was like. Barb said he put the cart before the horse and said, I think he's guilty of treason. And so he's made his motivations clear from the start. Not that he's investigating some crime that he found, but that he is indeed weaponizing the powers of his office to go after First Amendment protected speech.

[Nicole Wallace]

Because the warning was based on things that you were seeing firsthand. And many of those voices would follow you into the public space, Kelly just being one of them. I mean, the 25th Amendment is something that Kevin McCarthy and his own voice talks about after January 6th and his argument against it and those tapes from the two Politico journalists who wrote a book is it'll take too long. You should do impeachments. I mean, it is an idea debated from the point that you publish Anonymous through the days after the insurrection on January 6th. What is the delta now between people's private conversations, which in 1.0 included you and Kevin McCarthy, at least talking about the 25th Amendment and Trump 2.0, where he seems to have totally consolidated not just support but dissent.

[Miles Taylor]

Well, I think it's efforts like he's undertaking with these orders that are designed to prevent that sort of dissent. So I think things are a lot more closely held now. I do have a sense from folks that are in the administration. I do have friends that are in the administration. I won't even suggest who those remaining friends are because as you noted at the top of the program, people have been fired from the executive branch because there were photos of them at our wedding. I mean, that's the level in which they're going is if you have any association with this guy, we're going to nuke your job. But people are in there. Now do still suggest that there's a lot of fear about how the president's carrying out his orders. And I'll give You an example on tariffs, there was a lot of concern among people who care not just about economics but about counterchina issues and a whole raft of other issues in terms of how the president was handling that. The difference, though, is this time there's almost no air cover. There's no one coming out and saying, hey, this is a widely held view inside the administration. People need to speak up. And that's really important. That goes back to my point about anonymity being an actual threat to democracy, because if folks don't create that air cover for others, people won't see it as safe to come forward and the suppression of dissent works.

[Nicole Wallace]

How do you see his political strength right now? Where the tariffs, for example, have about a 33% approval rating, you've got Rand Paul on TV railing against their stupidity. Even on Fox Business. You've got a lot of pursed lips and you can see the steam coming out of their ears. He's pursuing an economic policy. It's ruinous.

[Miles Taylor]

Yeah, it works because of fear. It's fear. Fear, fear, fear, fear. Look at what happened the other day with Tim Cook, with the president flip flopping back and forth on are they going to punish Apple? Are they not going to punish Apple? Are they going to be covered by the tariffs or not? No CEO in this country wants to be on the receiving end of some kind of order that's going to, in a targeted way, kill their business. And they certainly don't want to be on the personal receiving end of a Miles Taylor or Chris Krebs order to investigate their lives. And that fear is working. And the only way to break through and stop that fear from working is people have to be unafraid to come forward and say no. They have to be willing to go challenge it in the courts. They have to be willing to at least go avail themselves of those last remaining guardrails that protect democracy to show that we can't let things like this stand. But that social fear is very high right now and it's where the president has most of his power at the moment.

[Nicole Wallace]

The turn seems to be happening in some of the reporting in the Wall Street Journal yesterday that the law firms who fought the EO's who have undefeated in court. I think Judge Beryl Howell said that the EOs against the law firms tend to chill down her spine. Other judges appointed by Democratic and Republican presidents have been equally appalled by the EO's targeting law firms. And you now, according to the Wall Street Journal, see the firms that fought adding to their client list, seeing an actual business benefit to fighting Trump and not capitulating?

[Joe Walsh]

Yeah, I think it's actually a real silver lining that we are seeing people rewarded for fighting back. You know, I try not to be too harsh on those law firms that did capitulate. It reminds me a lot of some of the cases that I oversaw as a prosecutor involving public officials who shook down small business owners and said, if you want to get the contract, you have to pay a kickback or something like that. They might say no, and they would lose the business. And so oftentimes, grudgingly, they would go along with the kickback or the bribe.

[Nicole Wallace]

O ice is a small business owner.

[Joe Walsh]

On a different scale perhaps. But the lesson I think is let's not blame the victim. Let's blame the person who's really at fault here, the extortionist. But all of those small businesses ultimately regretted their decision because they had to continue to pay the extortionists. They thought that if I pay you once, I'm done and I'm in the clear, but every time they would come back for more and more and more. So I think the lesson was there really is no ability to appease the extortionist. And so you are just delaying the payment day by appeasing them and capitulating in the first place. And I think those law firms are.

[Nicole Wallace]

Learning that lesson now, at least in the case of Paul Weiss. They've lost four of their top partners for doing so. No one's going anywhere. Up next for us in the latest chapter of the White House versus Harvard, new and never before reported details about a so called cooperating witness at the university involved in the Justice Department's case against the school. It turns out this insider now works inside the Trump administration. We'll bring you that reporting next. In the latest escalation of the Trump administration's retribution campaign against Harvard University. And now the Independence student run Law Journal on campus, stunning revelations about how the Trump administration is wielding power to punish its perceived enemies and impose its political agenda. New York Times is reporting this, quote, the Justice Department quietly approached Harvard University last month with startling claims and signaled that it was reviewing claims of discrimination against white men at the Harvard Law Review and accused the renowned publication of destroying evidence in an open investigation. Quote, in a series of letters that have not been previously reported reported, the government also disclosed that it had a, quote, cooperating witness inside the student run Journal. That witness now works in the White House under Stephen Miller, the architect of the administration's domestic policy agenda. Trump officials confirmed, quote, the Witness Daniel Wasserman was identified as a government cooperator in two of the letters to Harvard University from the Justice Department last month when he was still an editor at the Harvard Law Review. Joining our conversation is New York Times correspondent Michael Bender. He's bylined on that reporting we just read from Amanda. Barb and Miles are still with us. This seems wild. Michael Bender, take us through what you're reporting.

[Keisha Lance Bottoms]

Yeah, this has been one of the more remarkable stories, I think, in this entire saga from Trump, his assault on academia, mostly most recently on Harvard. I think this is, you know, whether it's sort of his deportation policy or his tariff policy or these attacks on higher education, the Trump administration has prioritized speed and shock value first and foremost. And what this story does, I think, is sort of shows the risks and the rewards of that kind of shoot first mentality. You mentioned there is a cooperating witness for the Department of Justice who works in the White House. It is not clear to me that the White House knew he was a cooperating witness when the Justice Department hired him. It's not clear to me that the Justice Department knew he was working in the White House or interviewing with the White House when they started working with him on his case. And that has led to, as you can imagine, a lot of complications, a lot of complications in this investigation. On the other hand, the administration did extract some concessions out of the Harvard Law Review. Now, this is a student run publication that doesn't have any, is independent of Harvard and doesn't receive any federal funding. And it was fairly extraordinary that they got involved at the Law Review on behalf of this student in the first place. But the Law Review did decide to revoke some disciplinary action against this student for downloading documents in violation of their privacy policy. And they've largely moved away from their requests of him to stop disseminating those documents. Maybe not a big deal in and of itself, but you know, where the Trump administration is concerned, even though small things are viewed as big victories inside the administration.

[Nicole Wallace]

Michael Bender, just explain to me why Harvard is engaged or how layered it is for the Law Review person who viewed himself as, I guess, wrongfully reprimanded based on the reporting. At what point in the timeline does he become a West Wing staffer in the Trump war against Harvard?

[Keisha Lance Bottoms]

Yeah, so he is. There is some overlap in those timelines. Hehis first day in the White House was at the end of May. At basically the same time, the Department of Justice is sending Harvard letters informing them that they have a, that they have a Cooperating witness from inside the Law Review. It's our reporting that this employee, this former Harvard Law student, started interviewing with the White House about roughly at the end of April. That's also about the same time this issue first bubbled up within the Law Review of potential discrimination against white men. White authors inside their review was from a conservative publication, a story in the Washington Free Beacon that sort of spun up this story and launched investigations now from the Department of Education, the Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Justice into the Harvard Law Review.

[Nicole Wallace]

Amanda Carpenter, I don't know where to begin. We are now, I guess, with a straight face to swallow the discrimination cases being pursued by the almighty United States Department of Justice Civil Division. The reporting suggests it may eventually become a criminal investigation by a young man who is now a West Wing staffer. Tell me all the things that, yeah.

[Amanda Carpenter]

I mean, it's worth taking a step back because it's hard to like, keep track of all the ways, right, that Donald Trump is seeking to punish Harvard. And so like, what is this about? I mean, this originally started with claims of the university not protecting Jewish students. And that was a reason to question all these practices. And now it's just kind of spiraled out of control to the way that they want to police the editorial practices of a student run paper. Right. I mean, this is, I mean, I think we should see this for what it is. This is an all out attempt for a hostile takeover of one of America's premier places of higher education. Right? Like these people want to use these threats in withholding federal funding essentially to make every college in America Hillsdale. They are questioning their ability to set their own hiring practices, admission curriculum, and now what students write and say among themselves for their own papers. I mean, this is an incredible, incredible overreach. And you know, I think they're so focused on Harvard precisely because it is a crown jewel of education. Essentially. If you can break Harvard, you can break all the colleges because they have more resources. And so this, this is a roadmap. I don't think it's working, but it is working with some, with some success. Right. Even at Harvard, because they have to engage in all these harassing investigations. The students now have to be afraid of what they're doing on their own. And so this is going to be tough. But I do think everybody should be looking closely, not just on the nitty gritty and day by day of what they are doing to Harvard, but the big picture, all the things they are doing. And you know, I just got to Praise Michael and everyone else who's really been following the story at the New York Times because it is hard to track. It does take a lot of resources. I think they're up to something like eight separate investigations into Harvard right now. But if they can do it to Harvard, they'll do it to everyone else.

[Nicole Wallace]

I have to see. I want to come back and go around on why. Right. Like everybody benefits from the breakthroughs in pediatric cancer research. So why destroy the university that sponsors the world's greatest cancer, pediatric cancer researchers? Why destroy that thing if you run the country whose citizens might someday need that? You have a minute to think about it. We're going to sneak in one more break. We'll be right back. We're all back. Barb, is any of this. Where do you run into problems of legality?

[Joe Walsh]

Well, number one, we've got this so called, I don't know what he is, a whistleblower who is both a witness and an investigator now. So, you know, which is it? You kind of have to choose which hat you're going to wear. So I have some problems with it from the get go. As Amanda said, this really feels like we're just going to hit Harvard from every possible angle until they bend to our will. It feels like that now and again. I don't know the facts. Maybe Harvard is discriminating against male authors. But let's think about what this is. This is a student run public publication. They pick and choose from submissions from all over the country from the best scholars in the world. Do they want diversity of viewpoint and opinion? Probably. But that is what editorial freedom is all about. That's what academic freedom is all about. So what, are we only supposed to publish the white male authors? I mean, says who? And so, you know, again, we don't know what the evidence is. I also want to make a point about this destruction of evidence, the part that suggests that this might actually be a criminal case. According to Michael's reporting, what happened is this student inappropriately downloaded articles and email correspondence that violated the privacy rules of the publication. When the publication found out, they said, please destroy those things. You're not supposed to have them. Now, that is part of the investigation as obstruction of justice or destruction of evidence or something like that. If they want the evidence, they can use the subpoena to get the evidence. That's not what this is. And so I think that there's an awful lot of, you know, announce the investigation first, ask questions later going on here in an effort to just sort of dirty up Harvard Again, from another.

[Nicole Wallace]

Angle, the destruction of Harvard has consequences for people that have never stepped foot on the Harvard campus, Largely the research that is a magnet the world over infectious diseases, rare cancers for which there's no financial incentive for pharmaceutical companies to do that research. Why is Donald Trump so happy and proud to destroy Harvard?

[Miles Taylor]

Well, because it sends a message to all the other universities. And if you talk to people who are running different political science departments or law schools around the country, if you've got friends in that universe, there is already fear on those campuses. No, university presidents are not telling them totally stand down, don't publish anything that could be deemed critical to the administration's agenda. But people are quiet, canceling themselves because they don't want to stick their necks out. In fact, I heard an anecdote from someone on the west coast about a relatively well known researcher on issues related to autocracy who's decided to stop publishing on those issues for the time being so that funding doesn't get pulled so that the individual's not in the crosshairs of the university or the administration. This is what happens and it also echoes what university. I'm not going to name the person, but I was shocked and not shocked to hear that. But this starts to spread all across society. And I'll give you a quick antidote. I'm doing an event in Chicago on June 19 to raise for this legal defense fund and there was a caterer that was going to help for the event and they backed out of the event. Why? Because they're afraid that maybe their employees will be targeted for being immigrants if they support an event that has to do with a Trump administration whistleblower. That's how pervasive this is becoming.

[Nicole Wallace]

Will you keep coming back and keep us posted?

[Miles Taylor]

I absolutely will. And thank you for having me, Nicole. I really appreciate it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Give your family all of our best.

[Miles Taylor]

I will.

[Nicole Wallace]

Michael Bender, thank you for your incredible reporting. Amanda Carpenter, thank you for being here for the hour. Barbara McQuaid, thank you for being here and congrats on the paperback release of your amazing book. Miles Taylor, our table is your table. Please come back. This is Barb's book Attack from Within. Pick up the paperback copy. It's much more beach friendly. How Disinformation is sabotaging America. A quick break. We'll be right back. Now that Elon Musk is no longer a special government employee, he picked today to post his most forceful opposition to Donald Trump as of yet. And Trump's big beautiful bill currently working its way through Congress, Musk saying this quote, I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. You know it. End quote. Whatever you think of his outrage, consider this from author and commentator Paul Waldman, who wrote about Trump's former lieutenant. So why isn't Musk happy? The answer isn't that he didn't succeed because in most ways he did. What upsets him is he didn't just want to lay waste to the government and enrich himself. He wanted to do that and then have us thank him for it. Tell that to a mother watching her child die from malnourishment. Or a skilled park ranger who got fired from their dream job. Or someone in tornado alley who can't get updated weather forecasts. Or AIDS patients who no longer have their life saving medication. I'm sure they'll be very sympathetic. We're going to sneak in one more break. Up next for us Democrats on offense. We'll look at the Democratic Party finding its voice fighting back against Donald Trump. The next hour of Deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Michael Bender]

Introducing the WEEKNIGHT on msnbc, join hosts Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for a spirited conversation challenging each other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's about knowing what you are for.

[Joe Walsh]

Who you are for.

[Miles Taylor]

That's what politics is about.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's engagement. We are going to dive deeper into.

[Barbara McQuaid]

The legal side of today's breaking news.

[Michael Bender]

The weeknight, Monday through Friday at 7pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Barbara McQuaid]

We are not silent. That's right, Unwary silence.

[Nicole Wallace]

I have so much anger over his election and over the fact that he was reelected when we knew we knew what he was about. We are young. We are here.

[Barbara McQuaid]

And we don't want this. We want change. We want democracy.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi again, everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. Remarkable scenes have emerged in the last 130 days. Those of resistance in ways big and small. All but that last clip were from American cities and streets and voters speaking out at local town halls everyday. Americans taking to the streets whenever they can and a senator speaking out on the senate floor for 25 hours straight without even a bathroom break in. Massive organized protests all across the nation's largest cities. Democrats are voicing their condemnation of what is taking place in Trump 2.0. This coalition of resistance has been loud, but so far not so consistent or smooth or Universal reporting in the New York Times explores how the Democratic Party is still searching for a clear way forward. Quote, the Democratic base is aghast at the speed at which Mr. Trump is undermining incidents, institutions and reversing progressive accomplishments, and at the lack of resistance from congressional leaders. Now top party officials, activists and donors are broadly weighing how to rebuild and reassessing how to speak to voters, how to listen to them, and how to reach those who have tuned out entirely. Two of our next guests are uniquely qualified to break through the first one who is no stranger to major political moments. Keisha Lance Bottom served as the mayor of Atlanta during the COVID pandemic. She gained national attention during the Black Lives Matter protests in her city. She then went on to serve in the Biden White House and is now throwing her hat into the ring to serve as Georgia's next governor. If elected, she would be the nation's first black female governor. Here's a bit of her campaign announcement. Taking on Donald Trump head on.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Donald Trump is a disaster for our economy and our country. From his failure to address rising prices to giving an unelected billionaire the power to cut Medicare and Social Security, it's one terrible thing after another. And while I laugh when Donald Trump spent part of his first day in office firing me from a job I didn't even have, for thousands of hardworking Georgians who've lost their livelihoods, Donald Trump is no laughing matter.

[Nicole Wallace]

Another of our guests this hour has a different origin story, if you will. Elected to the House of Representatives in the year 2010, he was deemed at the time as, quote, extreme by Republican honchos and an unabashed Tea Party member. Now, in the wake of a Republican Party completely remade in Donald Trump's image, former Congressman Joe Walsh is announcing today that he is officially a Democrat. Let's see how far he's come. Here's a snippet of his appearances on this network back in 2011.

[Michael Bender]

Why did the Senate vote 97 to nothing, Chris, 97 to nothing against the president's budget? Why, sir? Why would you have voted no on every one of the 18 Ronald Reagan debt ceiling increases? Lawrence, I'll give you an honest answer. I don't know. What's interesting to me is so there might have been a debt ceiling increase that you would have voted for, just.

[Miles Taylor]

Not an Obama debt ceiling increase?

[Michael Bender]

No, no.

[Nicole Wallace]

After a long journey political and policy that we have at times covered on this program, Walsh has turned his back on his former party, which he now calls a, quote, real and direct threat to democracy and the rule of law. In a brand new op ed today, he writes this quote, anyone who cares about the Constitution cannot sit by and watch as fundamental American values, the rule of law, democracy, pluralism are attacked daily. To defeat my former party and defend democracy, we must do something different. We must assemble a broad coalition of moderates, progressives and yes, even conservatives. Nothing is more important than this unprecedented, sure, but that means we must act in unprecedented ways. It means that those of us who would defend democracy and the rule of law must put aside for as long as it takes our particular policy differences and formally lock arms for this higher cause. This is the fight of our times. The fight of our times is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Former Republican Congressman Joe Walsh joins us. Also joining us, former Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms. And with me at the table for the hour, host of the Fast Politics podcast, special correspondent for Vanity Fair, Molly Jong Fast is here. Her new book is getting all of the buzz, how to Lose youe A Daughter's Memoir. It's out today. We'll talk about it later in the hour. Let me start with you. I'm just going to go by the order that I see you. Joe, take me through your message to other Republicans and to Democrats in joining the Democratic Party officially.

[Michael Bender]

Join me. Nicole, it's great to be with you. Look, we have to fight. I mean, former Tea Party congressman me would not be doing this unless we lived in really unprecedented times. Nicole, you laid it out beautifully. We have the very thing our founders feared in the White House. My former political party has turned its back on democracy and the rule of law. If at this time, this time, all of us can't come together, progressives, moderates and even a bunch of conservatives and lock arms and fight at this time to defend what this country is, then we'll never be able to fight. And Nicole, the last thing I'll say is I'm talking about fighting, fighting. I was a son of a gun when I was on the other side. You know that. I said a bunch of things that I regret. But dammit, I'm a fighter. And we need Democrats to be fighters. We need Democrats to be authentic fighters and not be in sound like politicians.

[Nicole Wallace]

Madam Mayor, what is it that you have learned from sort of representing Atlanta while Trump was president from being inside the Biden White House? Well, I don't know. That's the out. I know it's not the outcome any of us wanted. Trump and Trumpism was gathering strength, not weakening. If we're likening it to a weather system. What is it you've learned from the diversity of your experiences that you bring to your fight to be governor of Georgia?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Well, first of all, Congressman, welcome. This is a really big tent and we are glad to have you under it. What I would say, Nicole, under Trump 1.0, when I served as mayor for three years under the first Trump administration, I remember sitting around the table in our conference room in the mayor's office and saying to our team, God bless the child who's got his own. What I've learned is that sometimes you have to look in inward in order to be able to move upward. We couldn't look to the Trump White House. We couldn't even look to our state capitol for support. So it really meant that we had to dig down and figure out how we could deliver for our people under ideal circumstances. When I was in the White House as a part of the senior team, it didn't matter what affiliation or if you were red state, if you were were a blue state. What mattered is that we needed to take care of people whether it was a natural disaster or providing resources to support small businesses. And so one of the biggest lessons I've learned is that leadership matters. It makes a difference. And this is why so many people are excited about the governor's race in Georgia. And it's why I believe we have so much momentum in our campaign campaign, and we're going to see that across the country in 26.

[Nicole Wallace]

Joe, I want to read more from your op ed and bring everybody in on this conversation. You write this quote, donald Trump is the worst of us, and sadly, the rest of the Republican Party emulates his cruelty, dishonesty and authoritarianism. We're better than what we've seen every day these past four months. America is better than this. As a former Republican, I know that cruelty sells well. It's time for decency to sell. Let me show you a little bit of what sells at Fox News. Here's Mr. Waters and Gutfeld.

[Michael Bender]

I saw Senator Thune at the gym.

[Nicole Wallace]

The man is jacked.

[Miles Taylor]

The guy is in great shape and he lifts hard. You look at Schumer, he's built like a woman.

[Nicole Wallace]

Now, men do not want to be.

[Miles Taylor]

Led by the party of women.

[Michael Bender]

At worst, a guy gets sent to.

[Keisha Lance Bottoms]

A country he doesn't want to go to. You know what?

[Miles Taylor]

I can live with that.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Into a prison camp. Not just out in the wild.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's a pretty popular show on a pretty popular network.

[Michael Bender]

It is, Nicole. But we're better than that. Look, I come from that world. I come from the right wing media world and that does sell, but that doesn't sell to most Americans. The problem is we need a big tent. The problem is MAGA and Trump's base, I think, are bigger than most Democrats even realize. And so we do need a big tent to defeat it. We do need progressives and moderates and conservatives to lock arms at this time. Nicole, we're not always going to agree on every single issue. You know, my journey, my God, I've spent the past six to seven years listening to people who disagreed with me and I've learned a lot and changed on a number of positions, but we're not going to agree on everything. But we've only got two political parties in this country. One of our political parties, my former political party, is utterly opposed to democracy and the rule of law. The Democratic Party embraces our founding principles.

[Nicole Wallace]

Madam Mayor, how do you, I mean, to give credit where credit is due. Vice President Harris welcomed Liz Cheney into her campaign in its final push to prevail last November. The Democratic Party has made space for people like me and Joe and still seems to not have the vibes of being on offense. How do you change the vibes to something where, I mean, the fact is Donald Trump on the economy has a 33% approval rating. Donald Trump is deporting people for whom there's 9 to 13% public support for the people he's sending out of the country and disappearing from high school volleyball practices and whatnot. How do you get your party to act and look and talk and sound more as though they are on the offense? They should be when you look at where the public is on Trump's policies.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Nicolas, I'm talking to people across the state. What they are talking about are those things that matter to their families and to their communities. How do they put food on the table? How do they relieve some of this anxiety that they are feeling about their small businesses? Whether it's our farmers in our rural communities who are being shaken by tariffs or someone who is trying to, to retire and can't retire because of the fluctuations in the market. What we need to do is remind people of who we are as a party. So, for example, I'll remind people as I'm out on the trail that as mayor of Atlanta, we raised our minimum wage to $15 an hour in the city of Atlanta. We also made sure that we provided grants and support for small businesses. As a candidate for, for governor, I want to eliminate state income taxes for teachers that's 125,000 teachers across the state expanding Medicaid, making sure that people have access to health care. We have nine rural hospitals that have closed. These are issues again, that transcend party. It's about what will make a difference in the families across this country, what will make a difference to families in Georgia. And we got to make the message plain. We've learned a lot of lessons the way from the last election cycle. And we've got to speak directly to people about those kitchen table issues.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, you could, you know, she had me at Medicaid. Here's what Joni Erd says it sums down to, you're all going to die. Watch. They are not eligible, so they will be coming off. So we people are not well. We all are going to die. So for heaven's sakes, I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the auditorium understood that, yes, we are all going to perish from this earth. So I apologize and I'm really, really glad that I did not have to bring up the subject of the tooth fairy as well. She's in a race with Nancy Mace to be like the MAGA mavens of the month on the message side. I mean, that's where the Republicans are. I mean, you could just isolate that single issue and on the facts that 62% of all Democrats and 62% of all Republicans and 69% of independents have either received benefits through Medicaid or have someone in their family who have.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah. And this is a lot huge cuts to Medicaid to snap. Right. Food stamps for children. And look, these work requirements for Medicaid, they will mean that if you have a child over the age of seven, you have to work 80 hours a week. Okay. Like you are. These are not popular things that these Republicans are going to have to defend. And they are all in the service of keeping a tax cut and adding a tax cut for very wealthy people. I don't know. It's not popular unless you're a very wealthy person. So I don't understand. Like, I think fundamentally Joe has a lot of actually good points here, and I think he's right. Like, I think that if Democrats speak like people and explain that Republicans are taking away stuff that they had, you know, that rural hospital, that nursing home had to close because Republicans, Republicans cut Medicaid so that they could give a tax cut to very wealthy Republican donors and Democratic donors.

[Nicole Wallace]

So, Joe, what does that message sound like in the fight you imagine for the Democratic Party that you are now a part of?

[Michael Bender]

And Nicole Let me just buttress what Molly just said there. Look, as a former Republican, I can tell you that Republicans will fight to the death to win politically. And we Republicans never believed that Democrats would. So Democrats need to fight. They need to go to the map. And I want to stress this again, sound like real people, like get pissed off, get righteously angered. You last hour Nicole talked about how Donald Trump, that tyrant in the White House, is continuing to go after his political opponents. Don't respond to that. Democrats like politicians respond like righteously pissed off people. We shouldn't be on the map. I say we now, I'm a Democrat. Democrats right now stand for everything this country stands for. And I didn't always get this, Nicole, but Democrats stand for decency and tolerance and dammit, that's what they should push and that's what we should celebrate again and be proud about.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mayor Bottoms, you want to respond?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah, I was a journalism Major, Nicole, and Dr. Hawkins at FAMU used to tell me if Joe on the back of the Coca Cola truck, then understand it is too complicated. I keep that in mind as I'm talking about issues facing people across this state. We have to make it plain. These issues are very cut and dry. People want to be able to eat. They want to be able to be comfortable and send their kids to school in safe environments. They want their communities safe. They want to be to able will put gas in their tank. Those aren't complicated issues. But as policymakers, we have the ability to make it complicated or not. We can make decisions that make a difference in people's lives or we can create chaos. And that's what we're seeing coming from the White House. And there's a ripple effect across Georgia and across this country.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, I think there's this conventional wisdom that the Democrats aren't fighting, they are fighting. And you've got a lot of people breaking through. I mean, the Bernie Sanders AOC rallies were like rock concerts. And Chris Murphy is a sort of a one man rapid response machine. I think what's disorienting is that the Democratic leaders seem to be marching to the beat of their own drum. I don't see Jeffries encapsulating the spirit of aoc. I don't see Schumer encapsulating the spirit or the speed or the normal sort of lexicon that Chris Murphy does. How do you get the leaders to be responsive to the members who are being responsive to the public?

[Barbara McQuaid]

Well, this is a real question and this goes back to this idea of a Democratic Tea Party Right. Because the base is enraged. I mean, enraged, enraged. You see the base just so angry. And they're angry at their electeds, too. I mean, they want more. They want real resistance. So the, the question is if the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Leadership is not, and there are Democrats resisting, you have Cory Booker on the floor for 25 hours. You had Chris Murphy, you have AMC of Bernie, and there are others. It's the leaders that seem disconnected from their own members.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Right. And I think that's a real. And we see that again and again. And I think this is an opportunity for leadership to be out there and they should be out there. And I'm not entirely clear as to why not.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right. No one's going anywhere. When we come back, there are troubling new signs that point to real, real problems, actual and political, for Donald Trump's economy. Consumers are increasingly financing like using credit to pay for things like groceries. With more and more people using the Buy Now, Pay later feature for loans for groceries, how Democrats can drive home the message that Trump is not doing what he promised to do at all, which was to lower prices. We'll have that conversation next. Also ahead, we'll talk to Molly about her new book. It's called how to Lose youe Mother. It's a candid memoir of her complicated relationship with her very famous mom. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. I used to pay 100. Now I'm paying 150 just to get groceries these are golden eggs. They have to be golden eggs to be this expensive grocery store, the gas station, everything.

[Barbara McQuaid]

We try to, you know, be very careful about the special things that we're.

[Amanda Carpenter]

Picking and really just try to stick to the basics.

[Michael Bender]

You know, we're scared that, you know.

[Miles Taylor]

We'Ll lose business because, you know, you.

[Michael Bender]

Can only get so much out of a dollar.

[Nicole Wallace]

Donald Trump's economy, ladies and gentlemen. Americans across the country are cutting back or juggling their budgets in the face of ever rising prices. It has gotten so bad for lots of families that Americans are increasingly financing their groceries. The New York Times reports on that. Quote, for some American consumers, quote, buy Now, Pay later loans aren't just for big ticket items like televisions and vacations. They are for groceries, too. When Tia Hodge stocked up at her local Kroger in early April, her bill was nearly $400. At checkout. She scanned her app from Klarna, a Buy Now, Pay later company that offers short term loans. Mrs. Hodge is hardly alone. Nearly a quarter of consumers using Buy Now, Pay later loans finance groceries up from 14% one year ago. That's according to a recent LendingTree survey. Americans turning to credit for their most basic needs for their families isn't the only sign of the damage Donald Trump has wrought in the few short months since he's been president. Again, the damage he's doing is proving to be global. According to the New York Times, quote, president Trump's trade war is expected to slow growth in the world's leading economies, including the US this year and in the years to come unless world leaders can resolve their differences over trade, quote, through to the end of 2024, the global economy showed real resilience, said one expert. But the global economic environment has become significantly more challenging since. Everyone's back. Joe, if the shoe were on the other foot from five in the morning until midnight. I mean, I won't even say if when the economy was actually strong, but people felt crappy about it. That media ecosystem held the Biden administration accountable politically for an economy that was better than they charged. Donald Trump is creating actual economic insecurity and despair for American families. What should the political pushback look like?

[Michael Bender]

Oh my gosh, Nicole, if I were still in Congress right now, I'd be in my district every darn day talking to real people and putting cameras in front of real people and having real conversations with real people, a lot of whom are Trump voters, about how they're feeling this pain. Look, Nicole, Trump lies about everything and most of his voters believe the lies. But he can't lie about the economy cuz his voters live the economy. So they're going to feel this pain. And I mean, I hear every day from his voters who tell me this isn't what I voted for. Joe, I thought prices were going to go down. Nicole, It's a lot like the whole issue of cruelty. I've had Trump supporters tell me, voters tell me, Joe, I wanted like you to be tough on the border, but I didn't think we were going to deport kids and moms because Trump has moved so fast and so, so furiously in an extreme ugly direction. Again, there's a great opportunity for Democrats here to talk to folks in the middle all over America. This is not the America anybody voted for.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mayor Bottoms the most basic thing, the price of eggs. Donald Trump, before he was sworn in between his election and his inauguration said, oh yeah, prices aren't going to go down, they might go up. How do you hold him accountable for lying to the country?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Well, Nicole, I was in the grocery store yesterday, so I saw it for myself. I have A family of six. I was blown away. A big box of Cereal was nearly.

[Nicole Wallace]

$9, almost $11 for a big box of cereal here. Yeah, I know. Everything is really, really sticker shock expensive.

[Molly Jong-Fast]

Yeah. Watermelon, almost $10. I mean, it's ridiculous. And I think that's how Donald Trump will be held accountable. People are seeing it. People will believe their own eyes. And I'm fortunate enough I'm not living paycheck to paycheck, and I didn't have to get a short term loan to be able to pay my grocery bill, but I did clutch my pearls when I walked down the aisle because prices are not going down, they are continuing to go up. And Donald Trump is continuing to distract the American people, people with all these other things, this chaos that he's creating in an attempt to distract us from the things that are before our very eyes, like putting food on our tables.

[Nicole Wallace]

Molly, the economy is, to me, the most surprising thing. That Trump has willingly destroyed his political superpower was that people believed his gold toilets and his helicopter would rub off on them, that his ostentation wealth could, by association or proximity or affiliation, politically lead to their wealth. The opposite is true. And this is something where folks were either around him, that prevented him from harming not just his own voters, but all voters, everyone who has to put food on the table. The idea, I mean, these are short term loans. I mean, some of the more predatory loans, like payday loans are the next step. I mean, we are now at a point where people, people are spending money to feed their families.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah. And I think it's important to remember this happened because of a trade war which is still going.

[Miles Taylor]

Right.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Some parts are paused, other parts are not paused. We were promised 90 deals in 90 days, right. TRUMP is.

[Nicole Wallace]

There are no deals, Right?

[Barbara McQuaid]

There are no deals. And even the deals, the sort of UK deal is kind of a framework.

[Amanda Carpenter]

Right.

[Barbara McQuaid]

And so I do think, and look, you've never seen anyone misread a mandate quite like Donald Trump, right? Like you had these Trump voters who said, I voted for Trump because I thought things were too expensive. And he said, and he said on the campaign trail, I'm going to make things cheaper. And then he launched a trade war which is inflationary. So this is really a scary moment. And I would say, like when you talk to, you know, the market has not responded to this. They say, still think Trump will chicken out. Right. They still think that the taco scenario will continue and maybe it will. But I think, you know, we're going to see more stuff from the bond market. I mean, this isn't very, this economy is still very fragile.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and I think, Joe, this is where Democrats can do what Republicans have done for years. I mean, what makes our economy so resilient is the consumer piece of it and what Trump has destroyed with the instability. And we should say I cover it every day. The tariffs were announced, paused, raised, lowered. 90 deals in 90 days announced. We are tick, tick, tick. We have the framework for one and that's it. So I guess we'll count that as half. We have 0.5 deals done in about 60 days. I mean, there is nothing. This is like Mexico, build the wall, which was always BS but now he's ruining or at least destabilizing people's sense of economic security.

[Michael Bender]

Nicole, he's a madman. Again. I think this is part of the problem. Don't normalize what this is and who he is. I know you aren't Nicole, but we Democrats can't. This guy is everything our founders feared. He lies every time he opens his mouth. He single handedly, through his ignorance and his obsession with tariffs has broken what was a beautiful, great strong economy that he inherited. And to your point, the only people benefiting from this are him and his wealthy buddies who have figured out how to take advantage of his idiocy and play the market. It's regular folk and small business owners who are being hurt right now, who are feeling pain right now. That's what we Democrats, those are who we Democrats need to focus on.

[Nicole Wallace]

I am not quite used to hearing you say we Democrats. Yeah.

[Michael Bender]

Oh my God. Nicole.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'll get there. I'll get there. I'll get there. I'll get you. It's lovely to interview you Democrats Joe Walsh and Keisha Lance Bottoms. Thank you both so much for starting us off. To be continued. Molly sticks around because when we come back, we're going to talk about her, about her brand new book. It's out today. It is brilliant and beautiful. It's called how to Lose youe Mother, A Daughter's Memoir. We'll have that conversation next. Our dear friend Molly Jong Vest is out with a beautiful and moving new memoir. Today she reflects on being raised in the shadow of her very famous mother, the larger than life feminist icon and acclaimed author, Erika Jeong. And how to Lose youe Mother. Molly writes with brutal honesty about her complicated but close relationship with her mother. Made all the more difficult two years ago with Erica Jeong's dementia diagnosis, which happened just as Molly's husband discovered he had a rare type of cancer. Putting this book out there is something she grappled with. But to her, this is not just a story about growing up with a famous mother. It is, quote, the story of what happens when the bottom falls out, when all the tests come back bad, when the doctors tell you there's nothing more they can do. This is the story of the worst year of my life. We're back with Molly John Fast. The book is exquisite. And to read it is to sort of sizzle off the page, talk about your childhood first and your very famous mom.

[Barbara McQuaid]

So, I mean, I am 46, so I have. What was. What I do think is that when you have a childhood that is a bad childhood, you're always trying to go back and fix it. And if you have, like, a good childhood, you always miss it. You know, you have this nostalgia for it. And what I did with this book was I wanted to sort of look at why I was so stuck in it and also to sort of. To, in a way, to sort of give us all permission. I mean, we are this sandwich generation. You know, we have these parents that need us, and we have these kids that need us, and we have these jobs that we. That we need to do. And so what I wanted to talk about was that, you know, our generation, Generation X, gets written about the least. And weirdly. And so we are in this moment. And every friend of mine, you know, was like, I mean, I just would run into friends on the street who would say, like, I'm going to my mom's house to clean out the stuff, or to make sure she's okay, or, I'm sleeping there. And so. And we all just feel bad, you know, I felt so bad about that I just wasn't the daughter I had wanted to be, that I wasn't the mother I had wanted to be, that I wasn't doing it all. And I wanted to sort of write a book that said, you know, it's okay. Like, we're just doing the best we can.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, what was your childhood like with your mom as your mom?

[Barbara McQuaid]

I mean, she was fabulous and glamorous and, you know, the closest thing we have to magic in modern life is this is fame, whatever that looks like. And she was ambitious and brilliant and strange and alcoholic and narcissistic and all the things. And I got sober when I was 19, which meant that I was able to look at the trajectory of her life in the. And see how much she really did suffer and feel for her and love her despite the fact that she wasn't able to get sober. And also, you know, what I really wanted to talk about was because I got sober when I was 19, I was able to see the many ways in which alcoholism affected my life. And we are in a culture where alcoholism is affecting a lot of us.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Barbara McQuaid]

We have even now, Trump's brother died. Trump's. Trump's brother. Yeah, died. His beloved brother died of alcoholism.

[Nicole Wallace]

Fred's father.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Right.

[Nicole Wallace]

Fred's.

[Barbara McQuaid]

You know, and you had, in fact, you know, Biden never drank and had. Hunter suffered with a lot. Yeah. And has been sober for a while. And I think these are, you know, this is shaping our world in myriad ways. And so I did want to talk about. I like talking about being sober and getting sober when I was 19, because I want to destigmatize alcoholism.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, so much of it is just about sitting right and sharing because you don't cure anything with a million stories. The only chance to cure something is with one story. And I wonder what it was like to write about your childhood with the famous mother. And it was challenging. It was. I mean, you write about the pain of growing up with your mom everywhere. Can I read some of that?

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Nicole Wallace]

You're right. I grew up with her everywhere. On television, in the crossword puzzle, in the newspaper. Mom was a kind of second wave feminist, a white feminist, and a highly educated, wildly affluent, Jewish, and somewhat out of touch every woman. But she wasn't an actual every woman. Of course, she was too famous for that. Too famous and too special. She was famous for that book. And then later she was famous for being famous. And then eventually she was famous anymore. Because fame, like youth, is fleeting. It deserts you when you least expect it. The wheel of fortune is always spinning. So you had to live with her grappling with her own fame, but also be one of the people in her life that still loved her when she wasn't famous anymore.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah, And I think it was. Look, this is a very. It was a very tough situation for her. I do also think it's important to remember that, like, in the 80s and 70s, parenting was not the way it is now. Like, people that, you know, we didn't have car seats, everyone was smoking. The people found, like, being, you know, I was a kid, I drank the bottom of people's champagne glasses. Everyone thought it was hilarious. You know, it was just a different way to treat. They sort of treated children like little adults. And I do think it's not like that anymore. And I think it's probably a very good that we don't treat our children the way that we were treated, but it was, you know, culturally much more appropriate. So I don't want to, you know, I adore my mother, and I think that I, you know, first of all, I got huge advantages from being born into this family, but I also got huge advantages because she had this incredible belief in me that she believed that I really was so brilliant and special, despite the fact that I was wildly dyslexic. And that kind of belief in your children is really profound and did really make me who I am.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to ask you how it affects you now because we kind of know each other as moms. I have to sneak in a break. We'll be right back. I want to ask you about writing, writing this and just writing and doing the same thing. Your mother. Did you write this? Sometimes. When I was working on this book, I bristled at the whole project of the memoir. A daughter trying to come to terms with the loss of a mother. But I never had Erika Jeong. How can you lose something you never had?

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah. I mean, look, the whole goal here was to do two things, right? It was to show that you can go through anything, right? That you can go from Sloan Kettering to New York Hospital to visit from your husband to your stepfather to your mother in the nursing home and do it. And how.

[Nicole Wallace]

How do you do that?

[Barbara McQuaid]

I mean, I think the. The thing that helped me the most was being sober, right? I've been sober for 27 years, and so I had a framework to know that I could do hard things, right? And then I had seen that other people had done it, too, right? That you can do it. So I think that was, in fact, a big help. But I also think that we, you know, my husband and I would say to each other, we look at each other and we would say the only way through is through.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting, too. I mean, people come up to you on the street. I mean, your kids see people recognize you. How do you deal with that differently, having been on the other end of that?

[Barbara McQuaid]

Well, I feel like you and I have sort of talked about this, and Maddow talks about this so well. We are so lucky that we get to, you know, interpret the news and explain the news in a way that is soothing and comforting to people. And we're so lucky because we need to stay. We all need to stay engaged. Right? Democracy is so important. This moment is very perilous, and so we get to be able to connect with viewers, to explain what's happening in a way that isn't stressful, that isn't scary, but that explains a very scary time. And I feel delighted that I get to do that. And I'm sure you have that same thing where people come to you and they say, thank you for just connecting. And I'm so grateful that I get to do that. I feel delighted. And the people are so interesting, and it's just a delight.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think it's different, too, because I'm always aware that. And I'm always happy to meet a viewer, but I always am cognizant. Maybe it's my own brain damage from so many years on Twitter that as many people hate me as. Watch. You know, it's a different moment. I think your mother grew up in an era where fame is fame. Now it's like being in the arena is exactly. Half the people will appreciate you, the other half will loathe you.

[Barbara McQuaid]

Yeah. But, you know, that's okay. I mean, the other alternative is not right.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're so loyal to be in the arena. Yeah.

[Barbara McQuaid]

And we get to do. And we get to be on the right side of history, which is. It's such a privilege. And I feel very lucky. And, you know, we were just talking about all these Democrats who are really, do you know, Chris Murphy and aoc, these people who are out there doing what needs to be done. And we're so lucky that we get this opportunity. So I do feel. Look, it's a huge privilege, and I feel very lucky.

[Nicole Wallace]

Two questions. How's your husband doing now?

[Barbara McQuaid]

In remission and, you know, has had this amazing moment, and I wrote about Joe Biden's cancer diagnosis and how we have this opportunity to embrace our humanity. And my husband has this, you know, job in education where he is able to really focus on, you know, what he thinks can help fix society, and that that gives him his life great meaning. So I feel very lucky that I get to be, you know, that we get to sort of look at what we're doing on this planet with fresh eyes.

[Nicole Wallace]

What was the scariest thing that you wrote in here when you saw it in the galley? What was the thing that made you feel most vulnerable to put in writing?

[Barbara McQuaid]

It's all terrifying. I was like, what am I doing? I should have written about feminism. Like, we're dogs, right?

[Molly Jong-Fast]

You're a dog person.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm like, maybe I'll write about dogs.

[Barbara McQuaid]

I mean, why? What am I doing? Like, I thought, why am I doing this? This is insane. Yeah, I did. Absolutely. It's totally scary. But the thing is, I do feel like people connected with it and they got to see that they don't have to suffer and that you are the best child you can be and the best mother you can be. And that's enough. And so if somebody feels better after reading this, you know, Daye knew as my.

[Nicole Wallace]

And if any of your kids follow in your footsteps, your daughter wants to be a writer. How do you feel about that?

[Barbara McQuaid]

Good for her. And I hope she writes. You know, my mom was so great about saying just write.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, you're right about that. She says everything is, everything is copy.

[Barbara McQuaid]

And like Nora Ephron. Yeah, yeah. And so everything is copy. And my daughter, I hope she will go on to write great things and write critically and write about the good stuff and the bad stuff. Like, this is a family tradition.

[Nicole Wallace]

We love you so much. Our viewers love you so much. The book is exquisitely written and the vulnerability just leaps off the page and moves you to your last sort of humanity. It's beautiful. It's really. And it's getting so much buzz and rave, rave, rave reviews. Congratulations. Thank you. The book is called how to Lose youe A Daughter's Memoir. It is out today. Another break for us. We'll be right back. This afternoon, on the third day of pride, no less, we learn Secretary of Defense and former Fox News anchor Pete Hegsett has officially ordered the U.S. navy to rename the U.S. harvey Milk. It's an oiler, a support ship named after the Harvey Milk, the politician and gay rights activist back in 2016. We don't yet know what they'll call the vessel instead, but if the recent rebranding of military bases is of any guide, perhaps the names of the Confederate generals aren't off the table. We'll follow the story for you. We'll be right back. Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart to all of you who have subscribed to and listened to and sent me notes on bluesky and Instagram about our new podcast, the Best People. We appreciate your support so much. If you haven't subscribed yet, you can scan the QR code up on your screen right now. And thanks to you for letting us into your homes this afternoon. We are grateful.