“A moral and human issue”

Summary

---

Deadline: White House

Episode: “A moral and human issue”
Date: October 10, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC)

---

Overview

This episode focuses on the moral, legal, and political crisis around the Trump administration’s militarized immigration raids in Chicago. The discussion centers on the perspective of faith leaders, protest movements, the power of presence and solidarity, and the personal cost of these policies. Nicolle Wallace is joined by key voices: Revs. David Black and Quincy Worthington, Democratic strategist Basil Smichel, comedian Cristela Alonso, and Rep. Seth Moulton, to explore how America is reckoning with questions of justice, neighborliness, and democracy.

---

Major Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Human and Moral Core of Deportation Raids

• Nicolle Wallace opens by emphasizing that while mass deportations and national guard deployments in Chicago are legal and political, at heart they're "a moral and human question for the country" ([03:30]).
• She highlights the suffering of ordinary families: "These are people, moms and dads, grandparents, kids getting swept up by armed government agents...the vast majority now without any criminal history" ([03:41]).

Notable Moment:

• Rev. David Black, who was shot with a pepper ball while praying outside an ICE facility, is introduced. His words to federal agents:

  "I told them there is still time to repent, believe the good news, and turn from their wicked ways. That is when they open fire." ([04:30])

2. Bearing Witness and Building Community

• Rev. David Black describes the protests as acts of "world building" and "democracy where everyone can live where they choose to belong" ([05:41]).

• He urges viewers not to succumb to despair, but to see the protests as acts of hope and joyful resistance:

  "A new creation is coming to life in America at this moment, to the terror of this administration and ICE agents." ([07:01])

• Solidarity and Joy at Protests:

  • The protests are defined by “a deep sense of solidarity and mutual aid,” singing, praying, chanting—“an act of love” for those detained and their families ([07:33]).

• Rev. Quincy Worthington paints a vivid picture:

  "It's like watching the kingdom of heaven smash against the gates of hell...Instead of responding with hatred...they fall back, care for one another, flush the pepper spray out of each other's eyes, and then rally..." ([09:00])

3. The Role of Faith, Risk, and Protection

• On safety and roles:

  • Rev. Worthington stresses, "There is a role for everyone at every level," and highlights the importance of supporting the protest in whatever way people can: showing up, bringing water, or simply offering prayer ([12:18]).

• For families facing deportation:

  • "God loves them, that we love them, and that we will stand with them and walk through [the suffering]. The power of presence can never be understated..." – Rev. Worthington ([13:27])

• Nicolle: Sometimes “bearing witness is all you can do.” Rev. Black relates this to his faith tradition:

  "God...came to be among us and to suffer with us and suffer as we suffer. So nothing of what we are going through now is apart from what God also experiences." ([14:40])

4. Local Action and the Role of Community

• Basil Smichel connects faith-based activism to historical roles of churches as organizers and liberators.
• He stresses returning to the basics:

  "We've fed each other, clothed each other, taught each other and ministered to each other...Going back to the basics is what we need to embrace." ([16:22])

5. Faith, Aspiration, and MAGA

• Basil distinguishes between “a faith that is aspirational and one that is centered in a loss.” He sees current faith-driven action as “very tactile, very nurturing and supportive, but also brave and courageous” ([17:35]).

---

Media, Satire, and Public Opinion

6. Comedy and Satirical Resistance

• Cristela Alonso joins to discuss the role of humor:

  “My faith...allowed me to be open and honest about things. That’s how you motivate people into learning and becoming better people: being open. It really is about progress.” ([23:09])

• Nicolle and Cristela analyze the power of comedic mockery — e.g., Jimmy Kimmel and J.B. Pritzker mocking claims of “war-torn Chicago.”

  “The best revenge is to mock and trivialize something that they take so, so seriously.” – Alonso ([24:37])

• They discuss the shifting acceptance among right-wing media personalities, with Joe Rogan pivoting to criticize the result of Trump’s policies after previously supporting him. Alonso emphasizes the privilege of being able to “change your mind” in contrast to people in marginalized communities ([27:00–29:00]).

---

Political Crisis: Government Shutdown & Military Pay

7. The Shutdown’s Human Toll

• Nicolle interviews Rep. Seth Moulton about the ongoing government shutdown and its impact on military families.
• Moulton, a former US Marine:

  "When you’re in the US Military, you’re getting paid so little that you don’t have a choice about living paycheck to paycheck. You are living paycheck to paycheck. So this is gonna be really, really hard on military families.” ([33:47])

• He denounces House Speaker Mike Johnson’s refusal to hold a vote ensuring troops’ pay:

  “Johnson has basically told us all, like, go on vacation...No one in the military gets to go on vacation. They don’t get to take a day off defending the country.” ([34:23])

• About the political impasse:

  "Republicans would rather shut down the government than make healthcare affordable for Americans. That is why you have...even Marjorie Taylor Greene...starting to come out and break with the party line." ([35:02])

---

Honoring Democracy and Activism

8. Nobel Peace Prize to Maria Corina Machado

• Nicolle covers the global resonance of activism, highlighting the 2025 Nobel Peace Prize awarded to Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado.
• Her humble reaction:

  “This is achievement of a whole society. I am just one person. I certainly do not deserve this...it’s about something bigger.” ([39:35])

• Basil Smichel reflects on the “courage” the Nobel Prize committee looks for, not capitulating to outside pressure (notably Trump’s lobbying) ([40:04]).

9. The Subversive Nature of Joy and Connection

• Nicolle and Cristela discuss the power of joy, laughter, and community as forms of resistance:

  “They have a much easier time if everyone is sort of paralyzed. And they have a much harder time if everyone’s, one, laughing at them and two, creating a new community in this moment.” ([43:33])

• Cristela: “The fact that a Latina won makes me so happy. It’s almost very fitting...We will win.” ([44:53])

10. World-Building and Everyday Heroism

• The episode closes with an invocation of American resilience, quoting West Wing’s President Jed Bartlet/"Martin Sheen":

  “Every time we think we’ve measured our capacity to meet a challenge, we look up and we’re reminded that that capacity may well be limitless...This is a time for American heroes. We will do what is hard. We will achieve what is great.” ([46:03])

---

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• Rev. David Black:

  "These protesters are actively building and rebuilding...a democracy where everyone can live where they choose to belong." ([05:41])

• Rev. Quincy Worthington:

  "There is no way to peace. The way is peace." ([08:56])
  "It's like watching the kingdom of heaven smash against the gates of hell." ([08:56])

• Basil Smichel:

  "The church is meant to be this both liberating force, but also a convener, an organization that brings people together..." ([16:14])

• Cristela Alonso:

  "The best revenge is to mock and trivialize something that they take so, so seriously." ([24:37])

• Rep. Seth Moulton:

  "Even during prior shutdowns...we’ve always ensured that the military gets paid...This is absolutely awful and it’s unprecedented.” ([33:47])

• Maria Corina Machado (Nobel Prize reaction):

  “This is achievement of a whole society. I am just one person. I certainly do not deserve this...” ([39:35])

---

Key Takeaways

• At the heart of national crisis are real human stories and moral dilemmas, made vivid by faith-driven activism in Chicago.
• Solidarity, local action, neighborliness, and joyful protest are shown as antidotes to despair and authoritarianism.
• The political context—government shutdown, militarized deportations—faces resistance from unlikely coalitions, legal challenges, and shifts in public opinion.
• Culture and comedy are essential tools for breaking through fear and division.
• The episode honors the humility and courage of broader movements, emphasizing world-building over individual heroism.

---

This summary synthesizes the major themes and voices, providing a detailed roadmap and emotional throughline for listeners and non-listeners alike.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

Deadline. White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. It's Cybersecurity Awareness Month and Lifelock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, Lifelock is your best choice. Lifelock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Specialoffer terms apply. The state of emergency is in America.

[Reverend David Black]

Not Chicago, and is birthed from this.

[Narrator/Announcer]

President and his administration. Dr. King said he could not raise.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

His voice against the violence of the.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Oppressed without having first spoken clearly to.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

The greater purveyor of violence, his own country.

[Narrator/Announcer]

And those are my words to you, Mr. Trump. Before you dare speak about any violence in Chicago, look into your mirror and.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Address the violence coming from the White House. Hi again Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. As much as the deportation campaign underway in Chicago is a legal issue, a legal question, a government issue with government questions, and now a military issue with big, big, huge fundamental questions about our military. It is also, at its core, a moral and human question for the country. Because these are people, moms and dads, grandparents, kids getting swept up by armed government agents. People with families and livelihoods and hopes and dreams and plans, and the vast majority of them now without any criminal history. The moral issue is driving some faith leaders to speak out, like Father Michael Flager, who you just heard a pastor from the south side of Chicago, Pope Leo, has weighed in. He is from Chicago. He said he would, quote, stand with Catholic leaders in protecting immigrants facing mass deportations in the United States. That is according to a group of American Catholic leaders and advocacy groups he met with at the Vatican Wednesday. And there was this disturbing scene we played for you earlier this week where a minister was among the demonstrators outside the Broadview, Illinois detention center last month when he was hit in the head by a pepper ball and then collapsed to the ground. That man, the Reverend David Black, said about the federal agents this quote, I told them there is still time to repent, believe the good news, and turn from their wicked ways. That is when they open fire, end quote. The Department of Homeland Security has since called the protesters agitators, and the department said they were impeding operations at that facility. Reverend Black is among a group of plaintiffs who filed a lawsuit against ICE and just yesterday won a temporary restraining order banning federal agents from using forceful tactics against faith based and other demonstrators. Yesterday, another notable rebuke came from a Republican, the governor of Oklahoma, Kevin Stitt, chairman of the National Governors Association. He criticized the deployment of Texas National Guard troops to the state of Illinois as a violation of his belief in federalism and states rights. And a federal judge also just ruled against the deployment of National Guard in the state. Late yesterday, U.S. district Judge April Perry issued a temporary restraining order blocking the deployment of the National Guard, finding that the Trump administration's directive violates the Constitution and would, quote, only add fuel to the fire that the defendants themselves have started, end quote. The ongoing standoff between Donald Trump's militarized immigration raids in Chicago and the faith, government and community leaders opposing them is where we begin the hour with the Reverend David Black. He is the minister of the First Presbyterian Church of Chicago, who was shot in the head with pepper balls while praying in front of an ICE facility. Also joining us, pastor of Highland Park Presbyterian Church, the Reverend Quincy Worthington, who has also been at the protests and has endured pepper bullets and tear gas while there. And with me at the table, Democratic strategist and Columbia University professor, MSNBC political analyst Basil Smichel is here. Let me start with you, Reverend Black, because these images, at a time when a lot of people feel like too much is coming at them, really stopped everything, stopped the conversation. We played them during the broadcast on Wednesday. I received a flood of people who couldn't believe that this had happened. So I guess my first question is, how are you two? What are we to do with the despair or anger that we felt when we saw this happen to you?

[Reverend David Black]

Thank you so much, Nicole. And thank you for asking how I'm doing. I'm recovering. I've had a respiratory issue ever since that attack. And it seems to be connected to your question about despair. I would just encourage everyone who is watching these broadcasts to witness this as a moment of world building, that these protesters are actively building and rebuilding. A democracy where everyone can live where they choose to belong, where our neighbors can return and live at peace in our communities with us.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

How do we get to the peace part when we're seeing parents and people who've been here for decades, people who haven't lived in the countries where they are from for decades, snatched off streets and deported.

[Reverend David Black]

It's very disturbing. And, you know, people have been witnessing this violence against me and other pastors and press in broad daylight. So trying to imagine what might be happening to our neighbors who have been abducted and are being held in confinement behind closed doors is just horrifying. I find my hope by consistently looking towards the valor and the joy and the peacefulness of the protesters who have been gathering at Broadview. I've been joining them as a minister and as one, witnessing the gospel and the hopefulness that that brings me. Jesus proclaimed that the end of the world is good news because a new creation is at hand. And I think that new creation is coming to life in America at this moment, to the terror of this administration and ICE agents and people who are clinging to very old and very violent ways.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

What do you see in the protests that you describe as joy?

[Reverend David Black]

Thank you for asking that. There is such a deep sense of solidarity and mutual aid in these protests. Protesters are gathering in a way that is totally pluralistic and autonomous. This group has no leaders. It has no spons. It's a group of people who are in love with their neighbors and in love with their communities, and showing up to be in solidarity with people who cannot speak right now, who are hiding in their homes, or who have already been abducted and disappeared. I've read that thousands of people have disappeared and cannot be accounted for since they've been kidnapped by ice. And so the people who are gathering are doing it out of a profound sense of love. And we're gathering to sing and pray and chant and sometimes speak words of condemnation. But fundamentally, this is an act of solidarity and a deep desire for those who are inside the facility to know that they are not alone. They can hear our voices and know that we are with them and we are for them, and we will see justice for them and for them to return to our communities where they belong.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Reverend Worthington, let me bring you in on this. If you could just paint a picture of what you're seeing in your community and what you want people to know who may be disturbed by the images, but we're obviously not standing there with you. Tell us what's happening.

[Reverend Quincy Worthington]

Yeah, I think over the past month or so, what I've seen I can only describe as. It's like watching the kingdom of heaven smash against the gates of hell. Repeatedly thinking about your question, I'm Always brought back to the quotation from A.J. musk that there is no way to peace. The way is peace. And what I've witnessed among the group of protesters that I kind of view myself as a chaplain to at this point is people peacefully protesting, practicing their First Amendment rights, fighting for their neighbors as best they can to be met with such brutality. And instead of responding with hatred or violence of their own, what I witnessed is seeing them fall back, care for one another, flush the pepper spray out of each other's eyes, make sure everyone's okay, and then rally to go back up front to again voice their love for their neighbor and the protection of all people in this country. And it's been one of the most horrifying and most beautiful things I have ever seen.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Reverend Worthington, when people ask you if it's safe to be out on the protests or to bring their kids to the protest, what do you say?

[Reverend Quincy Worthington]

I think. I think there are different levels of safety. I would.

[Reverend David Black]

With.

[Reverend Quincy Worthington]

With the way ICE has been escalating the response to the protests, I caution us to ever say that it's safe there. But I think we do as best we can to provide a peaceful and safe environment. And there are different levels of risk that you can take at these. This morning, we were gathered with clergy from all denominations and walks of life to serve an interfaith communion service at Broadview in the hopes of maybe also being able to take it into the detainees. And the feeling there today, especially after these recent court rulings, was one of joy, was one of hope. There was a lot of dancing. So today was a good day, and it was a very peaceful day. And it would have been something I would have been glad to have anybody join us for.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

I mean, Reverend Worthington, I asked you that because I can hear my viewers and sometimes I read them directly asking me, we're seeing what's happening, but we don't know what to do. And one of the things that I think people want to do is to be in the streets. But I think that the design of the Trump administration is to make them afraid. And that is, at least from the outside, something that they appear to have had some success at. People are afraid. I mean, I just asked you, is it safe? I wonder if you can talk about sort of trade offs, because it presumes that being at home is safe. And the truth is, for people being hunted by federal agents, they're not safe in their homes either.

[Reverend David Black]

Right.

[Reverend Quincy Worthington]

And I think kind of what we're witnessing on Chicago is that, you know, even Just walking down the street sometimes isn't safe. That we've seen ICE agents throw tear gas indiscriminately onto the road. But what I will say is one thing that this movement has really shown me and teaching me is that there is a role for everyone at every level. We have people who can't be at the protest because of respiratory issues. So they bring water, they bring supplies, they pray for us, they support us in other ways. And so there's many hands to make the work light. And it really does seem like a stone soup situation where everybody finds a need and helps fill it. I've been telling people, even if you can't make it, just praying for the detainees is a huge step, and it is a huge way to go. And I always think about, too, if this is what we're facing on the outside, in broad daylight, in front of cameras, I can't imagine what may be going on inside these detention centers.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

I think about that, too, and I think about the handling of a sitting US Senator, Senator Padilla, and the arrest of New York officials at Federal Plaza. And I wonder how you counsel families who have had loved ones detained and transferred and potentially deported or awaiting deportation. What is your message to those effective families?

[Reverend Quincy Worthington]

That God loves them, that we love them, and that we will stand with them and we will walk through. I think one of the messages of my faith is that God doesn't necessarily protect us from harm and from suffering, but we're assured that God supports us through it. And I think the most important thing to do for those of us who have loved ones who are affected or know families that are being affected, is to show up and listen. And I think the power of presence can never be understated or underestimated, the impact that it has.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Reverend Black, let me bring you back in on this. The power of presence. And if this is a tortured tie to our politics, forgive me and correct me, but I think that sometimes this feels futile to me. Right. Bearing witness without the ability to spare anyone the brutality of the images that I broadcast. But one of my colleagues said there are days where bearing witness is all you can do. What is the parallel in your world, in the faith world, and what do you see? The power of showing up. What does that mean to you in our politics?

[Reverend David Black]

Thank you for that question. In our faith tradition, we believe that God became incarnate as Jesus. And that means that God came to be among us and to suffer with us and suffer as we suffer. So nothing of what we are going through now is apart from what God also experiences. God is with us in this. I would also say a big part of my faith tradition right now, that showing up is the importance of being a good neighbor, showing up for those who are with us. I think we can look at these systems and structures and feel so hopeless about changing them as individuals. And yet everything good starts with what happens around us locally. In my community, people garden together, people check in on each other, make sure that the elders in the community are safe, that kids get home by the time in time for dinner. And all of that neighborliness is fundamental to building the society that we all dream of having together. One that is safe, where we keep each other safe and where we are empowered to bring our values to bear and to build the kind of culture that supports and sustains everyone who lives among islands.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

I mean, Basil, you've been preaching this, you know, go local as not just a political strategy, but almost a survival strategy for this moment, for as long as I've been talking to you.

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

Well, thank you for this moment because it's a bit of a full circle. As an Anglican baptized kid who went to Catholic school for 12 years and was an acolyte in the Episcopal Church, it's wonderful to be on with.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Members.

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

Of the class that believe as I do and were raised in a faith in the way that I was raised, even though it wasn't formally taught to me. James Cone's theology of liberation lives in me that the church is meant to be this both liberating force, but also a convener, an organization that brings people together to talk about how to move forward together. And there's been a history of this. I mean, my own family and many other families in this city and others are here and are able to contribute because of the work of Catholic Charities. We think about the role of the church even in the 80s when you had Central American migrants fleeing horrific circumstances, being sheltered by the church. So to have boots on the ground, if you will, and collars on the ground, right. To be able to a engage people, to organize and to do the things that, as you said, I talk about doing. We know how to do this. We've fed each other, clothed each other, taught each other and ministered to each other. We've done that before. And going back to the basics, I think is what we need to really embrace, which is, I think, what they've all been talking about.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

What do you say to people that ask about the connection between MAGA and people of faith?

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

Well, there's a. To me, there is a belief and a faith that is aspirational and one that is centered in a loss. And I think in many ways some of them have been told and pushed to think more about loss and not about what they can gain through their faith. That's something that I learned, as I said, at a very young age, just the fact that Sunday school taught me about self, as did family, but certainly Sunday school helped teach me about self. My experience with pastors is watching them go outside or go into schools and say, this is what our community needs. How can I help you bring this about? So it's very tactile, it's very nurturing and supportive, but it's also brave and courageous, which to these pastors is an extraordinary example of what it means to actually face. You could call it evil, but frankly, it's just a sheer determination of living in this loss against living both proudly and substantially in your aspirations. That is what I think their example is. And that's how I was raised.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

I am humbled to be part of this conversation with all of you. Reverend David Black and Reverend Quincy Worthington. Thank you. I hope we can continue this conversation. We're going to need you. Basil sticks around a little bit longer. We're going to fit in a very short break on the other side. We'll bring in our friend Cristela Alonso on the other side. Also ahead, the government shutdown is now into its 10th day. Mass layoffs are underway and next week, paychecks will stop for members of the United States military. It's not a good look for Republicans, to say the least, as Donald Trump deploys troops to American cities and Speaker Mike Johnson rejects bipartisan efforts to try to pay them. Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts will be our guest. And the Nobel Peace Prize has been awarded. And no, it did not go to Donald Trump, despite months of publicly lobbying and campaigning for it. This year's winner and her humble reaction upon hearing the news later in the hour. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Narrator/Announcer]

It's Cybersecurity awareness month and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, LifeLock is your best choice. LifeLock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteed or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Specialoffer terms apply.

[Talkspace Sponsor]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself, talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace, you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus, Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com save $80 with code [e-mail] MSNBC presents season two of.

[Narrator/Announcer]

The Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she talks to live leaders, strategists and rising stars within the Democratic Party about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive Caucus red state Democratic Governor Andy Beshear of Kentucky, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 first two episodes drop Wednesday, October 15th. Follow now for ad free listening. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

It thrills me to say we have lured to the table. Stand up comedian Cristela Alonso. She's also the first Mexican American woman to create, produce, write and star in her own American primetime comedy, ABC's Cristela. Her new Netflix special Upper Classy is available to stream right now. Basil's still here. I'm so happy that after one remote appearance, we got you here at the table.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

I'm so excited to be here.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

What do we I mean, I feel like you left me with these notes about gratitude and the power of laughter and connection. And I feel like the tie between what we just heard from faith leaders and what you contribute to is that people are open when they're in a house of worship, right? They're not. They're not like we go into our politics with all of our armor on, you know, emotional and political and our jerseys on. You watch something on Netflix or on, on, on TV or. Or you sit in a faith setting with your heart open and I wonder if that's part of the secret sauce.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

Absolutely. I actually think that, you know, I think that my faith, growing up Catholic, really allowed me to be open and honest about things. And that's actually the secret weapon to, to motivating. It's really how you motivate people into learning and becoming better people is being open. It really is about being open. It's about progress, which is why the word progress is in progressive. You know, it's about evolution.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Can I show you how Jimmy Kimmel is sort of deploying some of the news stories? Okay, let's watch that together.

[Narrator/Announcer]

We also got a very special report filed by J.B. pritzker, the governor of Illinois. This is J.B. pritzker reporting from war torn Chicago. As you can see, there's utter mayhem and chaos on the ground. It's quite disturbing. The Milwaukee brewers have come in to attack our Chicago Cubs. We've seen people being forced to eat hot dogs with ketchup on them and our deep dish pizza, well, has gone shallow. So it's a challenge to survive here in the city of Chicago. But there's no hellscape that I'd rather be in. Well, thank you, Governor, and please know that you and the provost of Ian our prayers.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

So it's very funny. It's also the thing that drives Donald Trump insane. It has been reported that he runs for president after Obama mocks him.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

Yeah, well, because that is actually the best revenge is to mock and trivialize something that they take so, so seriously. Because you re. You show the ridiculousness of it. You know, it's like hot dogs with ketchup. I mean, that really is the most depressing thing because in Chicago you don't do that. But it is. It's bastardizing the problem and actually showing them. This is really what you think in the. Simplifying it. Simplifying the joke. Making it a joke. And simplifying it in the simplest terms is the way that you make them seem so ridiculous, because they are.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Well, and here's. Here's the effect. And I know chicken or the egg, we can debate that later, but here's Joe Rogan.

[Narrator/Announcer]

I did not ever anticipate seeing that on TV on a regular basis. Me either, man.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Me either.

[Reverend Quincy Worthington]

It's shock. It's shocking.

[Narrator/Announcer]

I really thought they were just going to go after the criminals. I really thought there was enough gang members and enough people, Ms. 13 members and whatever they were looking for that they're wanted, they would go after those guys. The only way to do it would be where you could get everyone on your side. Borders are closed and we're going to find out who's committed felonies, who out of the people that are illegal, that have committed felonies. And if you've committed X amount of felonies, you have to leave the country.

[Reverend Quincy Worthington]

Yeah, right.

[Narrator/Announcer]

If you've been robbing people for the last 10 years and you're an illegal, you have to leave the country. Right, that makes sense.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Announcer]

But if you've been here for 25 years, you have a family, your kids go to school here, you speak the language, you're just illegal, but you're a contributing member to the community that up until now has been protected. This is crazy to ask lower income and middle inc income people who are kind of getting by and then all of a sudden you're about to ship them to a country where they've never been, they haven't been since they were four.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

He's no hero because Donald Trump told us exactly what he was going to do. But that he doesn't like what he's seeing and is sharing that with his millions of listeners is important in terms of cracking the information bubble on that side.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

It is. But then it also to me shows me that it's such a lucrative business to be able to change your mind. I, I'm not allowed to change my mind. If I change my mind, my community is weak and has to defend themselves. It must be nice to have the privilege to be able to change your mind, you know, especially if you saw the RNC mass deportation signs everywhere. What did they think? I also think that the point of view that we don't talk about enough is that they, they'll say, oh, I thought they were going after the criminals. To some people, being here, undocumented is the crime. That's what they think. Anybody that breaks the law is a criminal. The president is a criminal. You know, but it is this thing where for them it's like, I didn't know. Yes, you did. You just made a lot of money doing it. And you can change your mind and do this and you're allowed to change your mind. You're going to be like, whoopsie, oh, I didn't know that it was going to be bad. Yes, you did. Don't act like you didn't. There is a point that you can say I was wrong, but you knew. You knew right away. Which is why he waited so long to endorse him. It was a calculated move. It's like, oh, I'm not gonna get into it. I don't know what's happening. Then the day happened right before the vote, the national vote, where it's like, well, let me endorse him.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

You knew.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

It's all about timing. Comedy is about timing, whether good or bad.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Yeah. It's an interesting point about the privilege and the profit. Right. I mean, if you follow the money, the money is clear. You know, the customers who canceled all their Hulu and Disney accounts, the money right now. And this could change back again. But the money right now isn't with the capitulation. The brand of defiance that Jimmy Kimmel embraces is a better brand. And Joe Rogan must be aware of that.

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

It has to be aware of it. And everything that's happened with Target and Disney is testament to the fact that the money does speak. And when you take that away, people are like, oh, maybe I should change my tune. And you're absolutely right. Because the first thing I thought about is what an amazing amount of privilege he has. Because if you're a person of color, first of all, we told you so. And secondly, we told you so because whether it's through our current history or current experience or our oral history, we know what to expect when certain language is being used, when certain behavior is being shown to us. And even if you didn't wanna believe us, consider the fact that, yes, Donald Trump did say everything he was gonna do. And then as it was happening, you had people like Dr. Phil embedded with ICE agents. You had the late Hulk Hogan taking pictures in front of people being detained. To them, this was a joke. So everybody saw what was going on until the money changed, and then they changed their tune. But before that, they were living in the moment and they enjoyed that moment. And so that's why when you talk about privilege, it's absolutely right. It's good to be able to change your mind, because for us, as you said, we have to be consistent because people's lives and futures are at stake.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

I want to press both of you on that more. I ask both of you to stick around. When we come back, members of the United States military and their families are on the verge of missing out on paychecks because Republicans, who control every lever of the federal government, have allowed the shutdown to persist into a 10th day. We'll get reaction from former Marine and current Congress Seth Moulton. Next.

[Narrator/Announcer]

It'S Cybersecurity awareness month, and LifeLock is here with tips to help protect your identity, use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication and report phishing scams. And for comprehensive identity protection, Lifelock is your best choice. Lifelock alerts you to suspicious uses of your personal information and also fixes identity theft, guaranteeing or your money back. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected with a 30 day free [e-mail] Special offer terms apply.

[Talkspace Sponsor]

This podcast is sponsored by Talkspace. You know when you're really stressed or not feeling so great about your life or about yourself? Talking to someone who understands can really help. But who is that person? How do you find them? Where do you even start? Talkspace Talkspace makes it easy to get the support you need. With Talkspace you can go online, answer a few questions about your preferences, and be matched with a therapist. And because you'll meet your therapist online, you don't have to take time off work or arrange childcare. You'll meet on your schedule wherever you feel most at ease. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or if you want some counseling for you and your partner or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus Talkspace works with most major insurers and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. No insurance, no problem. Now get $80 off of your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com save $80 with code [e-mail] as President Trump continues implementing.

[Narrator/Announcer]

His ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

The fiscal impact of the government shutdown is about to hit the American military. If the shutdown continues, American troops and their families and their kids will miss their next paychecks, which is supposed to happen Wednesday. Despite the shutdown, there is a bipartisan push for a standalone bill to ensure that the military receives their pay. But that effort has been rejected by House Speaker Mike Johnson. Yesterday, Johnson took calls on C SPAN and was confronted with his choice to deny military families their paychecks. Listen to how that went. I am begging you to pass this legislation. My kids could die. We don't have the credit because of the medical bills that I have to pay regularly. You could stop this and you could be the one that could say, military is getting paid. And I think that it is awful. And the audacity of someone who makes six figures a year to do this to military families is insane. Joining our conversation, Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, a former officer in the United States Marines who served four tours in Iraq. Congressman, thank you for being here.

[Congressman Seth Moulton]

Good to see you.

[Reverend David Black]

Nicole.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

What is. Just tell me what the state of play is for the military. If this bill doesn't have support from Republicans, there will be no pay unless the government shutdown ends before Wednesday. Is that right?

[Congressman Seth Moulton]

I mean, this is absolutely awful and it's unprecedented. Even during prior shutdowns, which were embarrassing enough in and of themselves, we've always ensured that the military gets paid. And yet Speaker Johnson refuses to even have a vote on this issue. And let me tell you, when you're in the US Military, you're getting paid so little that you don't have a choice about living paycheck to paycheck. You are living paycheck to paycheck. So this is gonna be really, really hard on military families.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

And what is the rationale? I mean, what are the Republicans saying to you.

[Congressman Seth Moulton]

That they want to put negotiating leverage on the Senate? I mean, it's just. It's so out of touch with reality. It's so out of touch with what the people who are putting their lives on the line for our country every single day need to survive. I mean, let's be clear. Johnson has basically told us all, like, go on vacation. Republicans, you just go on vacation, don't show up for work in Washington. We're not going to hold any votes. No one in the military gets to go on vacation. They don't get to take a day off defending the country.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

What is the shutdown about, in your best and bluntest assessment?

[Congressman Seth Moulton]

That Republicans would rather shut down the government than make healthcare affordable for Americans. And that is why you have Republicans, even extreme far right Republicans like Marjorie Taylor Greene, starting to come out and break with the party line and tell the truth that this is their fault. She blamed the shutdown on Speaker Johnson and Majority Leader Thune and said that she, her own family, cannot afford the healthcare prices that are coming down the pike if Republicans refuse to open the government and actually support these Obamacare subsidies. So Democrats are doing something, are asking for something, are negotiating for a deal that helps everybody in America, including an awful lot of red state Republicans. So why Republican leaders are so out of touch with their own people, I don't know.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Do you guys get paid during a shutdown?

[Congressman Seth Moulton]

Yes, we do. Now I personally am not. I've deferred my pay. I said I'm not gonna take a paycheck while our troops aren't getting paid or even just while the government is shut down. Because you know, your basic minimum expectation from members of Congress should be to keep the government open it. Right. I mean, how much more can you ask? How much less I should say can you ask of us? Right. So I'm not taking a paycheck, but I think most of my colleagues are.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Is it possible for Democrats to do a roll call and name and shame the members of the Republican caucus who are taking their paychecks while the troops they support deploying to American cities are going without?

[Congressman Seth Moulton]

Well, the problem is we don't control the House. So we can't just literally open the House for business. I mean, we've been doing press conferences, we've been doing social media to try explain this situation to the American people. And the American people are siding with us. It's not just Marjorie Taylor Greene. A majority of Americans blame the Republicans for their shutdown because they do own the White House. They control the Senate, they control the House of Representatives. So this is their government that is shut down. And the American people know that.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Do you have any idea when Congresswoman elect Grahava will be sworn in? I know Republicans were sworn in at a period where House wasn't in session, but it seems that coincidences are usually not the explanation. And she would be the deciding vote on the discharge petition to release the Epstein files.

[Congressman Seth Moulton]

Yeah. I mean, that's the amazing thing is that while Republicans refuse to protect Americans healthcare, just kicking millions off of healthcare because they won't be able to afford it, they're not hesitating to protect Jeffrey Epstein. They're not stopping, you know, protecting the President from whatever's in those files. You know, Jeffrey Epstein seems to be more important to them than health care, than healthcare for the American people.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Congressman, thank you for joining us today. We'll keep checking in on you. Hopefully there's some resolution. Thank you for your time.

[Congressman Seth Moulton]

Good to see you, Nicole.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

When we come back, Donald Trump did not get his long sought notes Nobel Peace Prize today. The award went to a pro democracy activist standing up against autocracy. Her decidedly un Trumpian response is next. Despite years of obsessing and recent weeks of both private and public lobbying, this year's Nobel Peace Prize did not go to Donald Trump. It was announced this morning that Venezuelan opposition leader Maria Corina Machado would be the recipient for her movement against. Against the brutal authoritarian tactics of President Nicolas Maduro and for her work and for her, quote, tireless work promoting democratic rights for the people of Venezuela as well as democracy worldwide. And while the White House decries the decision by the Norwegian Awards Committee as, quote, politics over peace, and Norway reportedly worries about receiving backlash from Donald Trump. Just listen to Machado's emotional reaction when she heard the news from her life in hiding. You will be awarded the Nobel peace Prize for 2025.

[Reverend David Black]

Oh, my God.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Warmest congratulations to you, Maria. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Well, I have no words.

[Talkspace Sponsor]

I.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Well, thank you so much, but I hope you understand this is a movement. This is achievement of a whole society. I am just one person. I certainly do not deserve this. Oh, my God. It's just this capsule of beauty.

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

Yeah. You know, another amazing moment was when the chair of the committee was asked at a press conference, you know, how did you determine the winner when you were getting lobbied by Trump and all these other folks? And his response was, in all the years we've been doing this, we get lobbied a lot, a lot of campaigns. And then we have pictures of the winners on the wall, and they represent something. They represent courage. And he kind of just paused and left it at that. And that matters a lot. You know, when people say, yeah, we could have capitulated to the campaign, but then we have to live with ourselves and walk through this building and look at the wall and think about our decision every time we see that picture. And that's clearly not what they wanted to do.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Well, it's funny. I think that this will be the. The defining question of our times. Right. Not were you scared, not were you tempted to make your life easier and accommodate the bully in the White House, but did you stay true to your own standards for yourself? And obviously, and I'll say in her.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

Reply, she said it wasn't even her. It's part of the movement. That's what shows you that she deserved to win it. It's not about her. It's about something bigger. We are all in something that's way bigger than us.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

Is that a good thing?

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

Of course it is. Because, you know, in that moment, what you learn is that when you're part of the movement and you actually have the chance to have the microphone or any kind of attention, it's important to actually acknowledge the movement as a whole so that people understand that it's working. Not that it's about a personal thing, that it's about so many of us putting together, coming together for what we believe is right. And that, that acceptance right there shows you that it is part of a change. Not one person's, not one person's pursuit to matter.

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

Yeah, you know, Reverend Black mentioned that at the beginning. He said, we're building something, right? He said we're building something here. We're building a democracy. And that's what it. It's building a person where you're building an institution.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

World building is what he called it.

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

You're building an institution, you're building up a person or you're standing up for ideals. And yeah, I think at this moment will be remembered for what they did and the decisions that they made. And every moment that they stood up, even if it was just the platform, which is their street corner saying, hey, if you're out here protesting, let me give you some water. Cuz apparently it's almost illegal to do that, even when you vote, by the way. But at least we could do that during a protest.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

You said this off camera, but I didn't want to let the hour end without asking you about yesterday's indictment of Attorney General Tischain.

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

I've known her my entire career, and the most heartening thing that I've seen since then, because that depressed the hell out of me. But we knew it was kind of coming, right, was that everyone on social media was posting pictures that they took with her over the years of their career because she has stood up for so many people. She was the one who, among a handful of people, wanted to hold Donald Trump accountable. She is one of the many black women that he targets. And if you can think. I can't think of. Sadly, she has to go through this and we always have to think of the human factor. But I also think that if there are a few images of the people who will be remembered for doing what is right, she will be one of them.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

You know, we talked about the subversive nature of joy. I mean, the other thing that feels subversive is staying connected and not wallowing. I mean, that is they have a much easier time if everyone is sort of paralyzed. And they have a much harder time if everyone's, one, laughing at them and two, sort of creating a new community in this moment.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

You know, I think that also in this time, we have to remember that they're kind of like moths. The moths are attracted to light and they love to be around light because that is what attracts them. But really they just kind of hover. And really it is. It's about when you trivialize what they're doing. When you really simplify does become comical that because no one criticizes him in his atmosphere. And when everybody outside gets to see it, it's really, it's really hilarious, you know, that, that they take him seriously, you know, the fact that we're taking advice from the guy from Home Alone 2, you know, and the guy that wanted The Home Alone 2 guy wants the Nobel Peace Prize. And the fact that a Latina won makes me so happy. It's almost very fitting to what is representative in this country. We will win.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

I love it. I love having you here. I always love having you here. Thanks for being at the table, both of you. Thank you so much. One more break. We'll be right back. A ceasefire is now in effect in Gaza. Israeli forces say they have completed the first phase of their withdrawal from parts of the strip. Donald Trump said he expects Israeli hostages to be released Monday or Tuesday in exchange for Palestinian prisoners. We'll be watching for his expected visit to Israel Monday, where he's been invited to address members of their parliament. And in Gaza, thousands of displaced Palestinians are returning to their homes. Israel and Hamas have only agreed to this first phase. So many are hoping that it holds. We'll stay on top of that story. One more break. We'll be right back. If you are looking for more fellow travelers in the fight to protect and preserve our democracy, we have something special for you. A reminder of this nation's essential goodness and resolve from one of the most beloved American presidents of all time.

[Reverend David Black]

The streets of heaven are too crowded with angels. But every time we think we've measured our capacity to meet a challenge, we look up and we're reminded that that.

[Basil Smichel (MSNBC Political Analyst)]

Capacity, capacity may well be limitless.

[Reverend David Black]

This is a time for American heroes. We will do what is hard. We will achieve what is great. This is a time for American heroes, and we reach for the stars. God bless their memory. God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

Thank you.

[Nicole (Host/Interviewer)]

President Jed Bartlett from the West Wing brought to life by acting legend Martin Sheen. Is my great honor to say that tomorrow I have the privilege of sitting down with Martin Sheen for a live in person taping of the Best People podcast at the MSNBC Live 25 event here in New York. We'll share that conversation with all of you Monday, wherever you get your podcasts. As a bonus for you, Sue Gordon, a frequent guest on this program and an expert on intelligence and national security and an extraordinary human being, is my guest. For an unprecedented honest and candid and human conversation in a special MSNBC Premium episode of the Best People Available today. You scan the QR code and subscribe to listen to it right now. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful.

[Narrator/Announcer]

This ad is brought to you by Veeve Healthcare, the makers of Tobato Dolutegravir Lamivudine if you're living with hiv, look ahead. Do chase a dream. Do consider how you stay undetectable. Do learn about Devato. Dovato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devato is right for you. Do find out how many medicines are in your HIV pill. Most HIV pills contain three or four. Devato is as effective with just two medicines. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines. Then do dream about tomorrow.

[Talkspace Sponsor]

It is unknown if Devato is safe and effective if you have HIV and Hepatitis B if you have Hep B. Don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide due to.

[Cristela Alonso (Comedian)]

Serious or life threatening side effects.

[Talkspace Sponsor]

If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Dovato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life threatening side effects Effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding or planned pregnancy.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devado.com or call 1-877-844-8872 to learn more.