Ron Insana (3:22)

The story with inflation and you know, we're well aware that this is a story at this point is that if you get away from tariffs, inflation is in the low twos, right? So it's really tariffs that's causing the most of the inflation overshoot. And we do think of those as likely to in the current situation as.

Tim Miller (3:44)

Likely to be a one time, you.

Ron Insana (3:47)

Know, one time price increase. Our job is to make sure that it is and we will do that job.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (3:53)

It is likely tariffs. So inflation is worse. For the same reason we're being encouraged to buy two pencils instead of I don't know how many normal people buy because of tariffs. Which brings us back to the point made by none other than Jimmy Kimmel. Consider this single photo, a mere slice of the Oval Office, one angle from a bylat held in September. So not $37 or 37 pencils. According to our very unscientific count, there are 37 gold gilded items new to the Oval Office in this picture alone. In this frame, not including the picture frames, as our friend Claire McCaskill asked on this program yesterday 24 hours ago, isn't too enough, especially in this economy. It's an in your face example of what more and more Americans seem to realize and be frankly pissed off about. An out of touch, literally gold gilded president who outright refuses to recognize the economic reality for the vast majority of Americans is putting 37 gold things on literally one wall while he's asking families to tighten their belts at the holidays. To live without more than two pencils or two dolls in the name of an economic policy that everyone knows is making inflation worse. That's where we start the hour. Some of our favorite experts and friends, Ms. Now political analyst, host of the Bulwark podcast, Tim Miller is here. Also joining us, political analyst and pollster Cornell Belcher is here and CNBC contributor and publisher of the Message of the Markets on Substack. Ron Insana is with me at the table. Let me start with you, Tim Miller. This is the worst week for Donald Trump in late night comedy and entertainment that I can remember between sleeping and fantasizing about mom, Donnie and then the line about just do with two pencils and two dollars. I mean, I've never seen him be more sort of mocked on grounds that he is creating. I mean, he is giving us all of our material to criticize him with.

Tim Miller (6:07)

Yeah, indeed. I mean, I guess it does. We don't have to rank the worst weeks. I guess it does. Harken back to the Epstein stuff.

Ron Insana (6:13)

Right.

Tim Miller (6:14)

You know, just happening as well. And I remember being on here, we were talking about this Nicole and I said, you know, the one thing back then I was thinking more about kind of the more pro Trump type comics, not just the late night guys at the time, but they don't like to be made fools of. Right. And, and it's, and if Trump is Trump's vulnerability, you know, is, is him being mocked.

Nicole Wallace (6:37)

Right.

Tim Miller (6:37)

I think sometimes those of us who've opposed for good reason, me first in line, you know, attack him with outrage and horror and say, you know, he's being racist, he's being cruel and like he feeds like. And a lot of his supporters feed on that. Right. But he doesn't really like being mocked. And right now he's being mocked on the issue that was core to his campaign, which was the economy. And he was elected really based on saying that he was going to fix what he had criticized in Joe Biden's economy and he was going to fix the things that people were uncomfortable with in Joe Biden's economy, particularly inflation. And now here he is, we're a year in, we're coming up on Christmas, and his message is fewer pencils. And that's mockable. It's extremely mockable. And it's mockable for people that had been critics of him like Stephen Colbert or Saturday Night Live or whatever. But it's also mockable among kind of the cultural types that had been open to Trump or even supportive of him. And I think it's a sign of kind of how bad of straits he's in that he's just getting roundly mocked on this stuff across the board because he doesn't have a non. Mockable message to offer, at least on the economy.

Cornell Belcher (7:52)

Yeah.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (7:52)

And Cornell, I think perhaps the more politically salient piece is that he's making fools of his voters. And I think that's actually a tragedy. And they do not deserve our mocking. They deserve our sympathy and our empathy because it's, I think, the greatest political betrayal in modern times that he stood before melting food products in Bedminster. I think everybody, including this network, took it live. His explicit promise to the voters ahead of last November's election was that he would bring down the price. He kept calling it the grocery singular, making clear what we all knew. He didn't do any grocery shopping himself, but that's fine. Other presidents have not had that on their honey do list. But this is the mockery of his voters. One, calling it a hoax and two, saying, just buy fewer pencils.

Cornell Belcher (8:44)

Well, you know, I've got to go back to that photo, Nicole, because I think that photo actually encountered.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (8:50)

Please, please. I dug that up. Let's put the photo back.

Cornell Belcher (8:53)

I mean, my go. If you look at that photo, I think when you look at that image of that photo and all the gilded things and all the dudes and all the white dudes, I think they're proud of that. But I think at the same time, that image that they're proud of and they think is tough and strong, I think it cuts against them. Because, look, that is an image that does not look like everyday America. It just doesn't. And for that mom who's sitting out there in middle America, you know, struggling to put groceries on the table and struggling to understand how she's going to be able to pay for her daughter's college, you know, no one in that room speaks to her, right? And I don't think she sees that photo and thinks anyone in that room in that photogrounding him really understands the pain of her life or even the aspirations of her life. So I think in many ways it is the performance, the literal performance and the policies, but it's also the show that he's putting on. And the show that he's putting on right there in the Oval Office, in the White House, I think, is not carrying the message to middle America that they think.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (10:11)

I don't say this very often, but I get to say it today. It's not just Cornell. Marjorie Taylor Greene thinks so, too. Watch.

Commercial Announcer (10:23)

Look.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (10:24)

Electric bills have gone up. Everyone's bills have either stayed the same or going higher. Grocery prices have not gone down. Everybody suffered from inflation. That happened during the Biden administration. And I think the president needs to be aware that he's a billionaire president of the United States, and you can't gaslight people and tell them that their bills are affordable. And to that, Trump says, watch me.

Ron Insana (10:56)

Well, you know what's wildly ironic about this, Nicole, is on the one hand, it's the Louis 14th presentation of the Oval Office, which is wildly out of touch with most.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (11:05)

Can I see the numbers again? I love the numbers. I hadn't seen it in a full size. See, we didn't count the gold frames because other presidents have, you know, you take the portraits from the portrait gallery and you don't get to frame them. But everything else was a choice, a choice for gold.

Ron Insana (11:19)

And what's also interesting about that though, is when he is denying the lived experience of folks or asking them to make do with fewer pencils or fewer dolls. Remember, you're not old enough to remember this, but Jimmy Carter at one juncture asked us to turn down the thermostat, wear a cardigan, wear an extra sweater because energy prices were so high. And as Marjorie Tillery Greene said, you know, look, energy prices on average are up more than year over year, in some cases as much as 10%. And not sharing the sacrifice, which was something Jimmy Carter was willing to do but ultimately paid a price for, is antithetical to what we're seeing here. And so you have a president that is. And this was also something that was pointed at George H.W. bush, that he was. Seemed to be out of touch on the economy. This is orders of magnitude different.

Cornell Belcher (12:03)

Right?

Ron Insana (12:04)

It was just that George H.W. bush was living in the White House and didn't scan his groceries. This is a president who refused to take in any information about the economy and is suggesting that it's better than it really is, that inflation is coming down. It's not still stuck around 3%. We see that again. The pencil thing is very strange. It's an odd fixation. I mean, I happen to use a lot of them myself.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (12:27)

I find the dolls even weirder.

Ron Insana (12:28)

Well, yeah, and I don't. My kids don't have 37. My girls don't have 37 dolls. I have 40 pencils at home. It's all I use and I'm not willing to give them up under any circumstances.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (12:38)

But how much for 40 pencils?

Ron Insana (12:40)

I don't even know. I mean, they're just in the drawer.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (12:42)

They're not very much.

Ron Insana (12:42)

No, they're not.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (12:43)

We buy a lot of pencils too.

Ron Insana (12:44)

But look, I mean, we know the labor market is. The economy is being propped up by this huge investment in AI infrastructure and the top 20% of all wage earners are driving the bulk of consumer spending. So we have this K shaped economy that he's unwilling to recognize that there are people on the downside of that K who aren't keeping up with inflation or doing worse. And they're the people who need his attention and they are not getting it.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (13:08)

Tim, how do you think he got here? Like, I understand the economic picture. I've worked hard to Try to learn it. And this sort of discrepancy between the market and the real lived experience of the vast majority, 80, 90, 95, 96, 97% of all Americans is totally divorced from what's happening on Wall Street. But Trump used to have people around him like Steve Bannon and others that made sure that that was always, if not in his mind, he was reminded of it. How did he lose the ability? Because he's always been ostentatious. He had a gold toilet before he gilded the oval office with 37 gold things just on that one wall. But how did he lose the ability to make his wealth feel contagious to his supporters?

Tim Miller (13:54)

Yeah, well, I think there are two things that are happening there. One, as you're alluding to, the people that had the ability to help him do that aren't around him anymore. The people that had the savvy to do it. He's around a lot of billionaires now. And the people he's around is like Scott Besant and the other Lutnick and Witkoff people that they're in the crypto scam deals with. And he's just around a very rich, out of touch people. And the ban ends of the world, I don't think have the influence. And I remember a story, I believe it was on election night of 2016 when Kellyanne Conway, or it was in the lead up to the election we thought he was going to lose in 2016. And Kellyanne Conway was trying to remind him that this wasn't all about him on the plane. This was in one of the books about the campaign. It's about that. You got to keep in mind the forgotten people. I think there's been a challenge for him going all the way back. It's just that he had advisors that were better at reminding him that he should at least pretend to care about the people for a while. But the other really big difference here is the economy was pretty good in the first term. How much credit does Trump get for that versus economic cycles? People can debate that's not true this time. People are feeling the pain in this economy and Trump himself and his policies have made it worse with the tariffs in particular and also some of the immigration policy and other policies they put forth. And so this becomes a conundrum for Trump that he can't figure out how to get this straight in his brain, which is, I've got to care about the people and pretend that I care about their interests and talk about them, but I also have to talk about how great I am. And how everything is going well. And in the first term you could kind of bridge those things by him talking about how it's the greatest economy for black people, it's the greatest economy for Hispanics, and we all know the rant that he would do. Anyone who watched his speeches, he can't do that now. And so I think that is what is underlining his inability to connect with people that are struggling.

Ron Insana (15:59)

Nicole, if I could do the math on what Tim is saying. When Donald Trump came in the first time, his first three years were almost identical to Obama's last three years in terms of job creation and GDP growth right now.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (16:12)

Until Covid.

Ron Insana (16:13)

Until Covid, yeah. Which you know, you can't blame him for to an extent you can. The response may not have been adequate in some ways, or both he and Biden may have overdone it. You can argue both sides of that when he came in now, job growth is down to about half of what it was a year ago and a third of what it was two years ago under the Biden administration. Yes, inflation was higher and coming down post pandemic, but the economy was in much better shape then in 23 and 24 than it is today. And he keeps saying that we have the best economy in the history of the country and that it's just absolutely, provably, demonstrably untrue.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (16:50)

So Cornell, what is the opportunity for Democrats right now?

Cornell Belcher (16:55)

You know, I was gonna say, you know, tempse is a conundrum for Trump. I think it's a conundrum for House, for House Republicans. Look, you know, and the AP poll that's out today, and we keep talking about Trump overall approval numbers. You know, for context, there was three points that separated Harris from Trump among independent voters in the last presidential election. Three point separated them. Right now 80% of independent, that's 80% of independent disapprove of the job that the President's doing on the economy. Right. That is completely collapsed. You know what you don't want to do if you're a House Republican going into a midterm election where independent voters have turned solidly against your party's standard bearer around economic issues. It is, it is. You know, I would be pushing the panic button if I, if I were over there. Because look, when you look at where these congressional districts are, they're going to need independent voters, they're going to need middle of the road voters to win those suburban, those suburban and even to a certain extent rural districts. And I think when you where this meets where this meets the road, Nicole, is look at how Democrats have been overperforming in every special election.

Nicole Wallace (18:10)

Yeah.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (18:10)

I mean, and this is where the gerrymander won't save them. I mean, I do think that we can't take our eye off the ways that Trump is trying to rig the election. And the setback in Indiana isn't enough to count them out of that game. But there is a piece of the gerrymander where you just make every seat more vulnerable. And we're looking at 11 to 20 point swings. That's almost sort of wave immune. I want to look at some of that in terms of looking ahead. No one's going anywhere. There's much more to get to on why America is Republicans think Donald Trump is so out of touch on questions of economic security and economic stability and why they think he's unwilling to address the rising costs of just about everything. As Tim said, it probably has something to do with the number of billionaires in his inner circle. We'll get to that next. Also ahead, by law, the Jeffrey Epstein files have to be released by the end of next week. But there's real concern among Epstein survivors and many Democrats on Capitol Hill that the files may have been or may be tampered with. What they're doing to make sure that doesn't happen. Later in the hour, Deadland White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Commercial Announcer (19:15)

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Nicole Wallace (20:48)

This economy, the $30 trillion US economy can grow 4%. It can grow 5%. And I think under President Trump, you're going to see it grow 6%. And people think, oh, these things aren't possible. Lower rates, lower energy, you're going to have that growth. You're going to fix America doing both sides, raising wages, great jobs coming into this country, bringing down the cost of energy, bringing down the cost of interest rates. You're going to have Americans feel good about the United States of America under Donald Trump.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (21:22)

I hope so. But I mean, that is as likely. I'm 5, 4, I could be 55 and then 56 and then 57 and then 58 and then 5 9. I could grow 6 more inches in my 50s. I mean, like, sure, it's possible, but nothing that they're doing makes it more likely.

Ron Insana (21:41)

No, I mean, the Fed cutting interest rates at the margin probably helps a little bit, but we have structural problems in the labor market that have nothing to do with interest rates. We have structural problems in the housing market, a lack of supply that has nothing to do with interest rates. And growing 6% in real terms, which means inflation adjusted terms, you'd actually have to grow 9% in dollar terms, subtract the 3% inflation rate to get a real 6% growth rate. We don't do that that often. I mean, we've been growing on average between 2 and 3% over the course of the last 20 or 30 years. It's not been since the 1990s that growth has been gangbusters. And there is no single policy or even collection of policies right now. When you look at the tariffs, when you look at some of the other things that are being done, mass deportations that are going to push the economy that much farther ahead. We would need a massive productivity boom to take place immediately for us to get anywhere close to those numbers.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (22:35)

Tim Lutnick has provided one of the single best testimonials to his one on one time with Jeffrey Epstein. He described his tour of his mansion as quote, Creepy and couldn't understand why there was a massage table instead of a dining room table in his dining room, which I thought was actually like fascinating texture to what sort of Epstein's equally wealthy peers thought of it. Blutnick thought he was creepy, but in terms of the economy, he's not seemed to feel any compunction to operate with credibility. What is his role in all this other than Trump cheerleader?

Tim Miller (23:11)

I think Trump likes him because he's a Trump cheerleader. I think that pretty much is the role. And you see reporting from inside the administration, it's obviously anonymous sources, but basically Lutnick's peers think that he's the dumb one and that that's pretty hard to stand out. I'm just telling you what the anonymous sources are telling the Beltway rags. So it's hard to argue, though, and he's not making very strong arguments. Maybe I'm hearing things, but in that clip you just played, I think you might have said unpossible like Ralph Wiggum instead of saying impossible. Maybe that's wrong. Maybe I'm projecting. But one reason why they're out of touch, going back to their being out of touch, it's worth mentioning in seriousness with Lutnick is his kids, the Leddic children. They reported earlier this year they had the best year ever for their firm. The Wyckoff kids are in business with Trump. As I mentioned in the last segment with the Trump kids on crypto, these guys are all doing great. I do think that contributes to how out of touch they are in the economy, is that it has been a good economic year. If most of your money comes from the stock market, it's been an especially good year. If most your money comes to the stock market and you're corrupt and you have inside deals with the administration. And it's been a really, really great year if you're in the Trump family or you're in the business with the Trump family. And I think that that is both a massive scandal, but also contributing to their disconnect with what's happening with everybody else.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (24:44)

I mean, Cornell on that. I know we live in post ethics America that the voters got to decide if the emoluments clause and grifting and Donald Trump, who was the first presidential candidate in American political history not to turn over his taxes ahead of his first run for president in 2016 because he kept saying he was being audited. I know we've normalized that. Not you we, but we we in the media. But it feels like maybe that should be looked at and sort of turned over again like a, like a, like a rock. Because underneath it is is real voters economic despair this time. I mean, the economy sucks. And I wonder if all the grifting and all of the lack of ethics and all the self dealing and all the destruction of norms in the category of sort of ethics and emoluments and all that deserves another look or another sort of having the spotlight turned on it by Democrats.

Cornell Belcher (25:39)

Well, I think the spotlight is turned on it. I don't think it's turned on it by Democrats. I think the spotlight is being turned on it it by everyday Americans when they go to the grocery store and everyday Americans when they try to get health, health care. Right. And you know, Nicole, I was watching focus group last night in Georgia and one of the young participants talked about how aca, they had a heart issue that they didn't know about and aca and thanks for the aca, they were able to pay for it. If not, they would have gone bankrupt. And the idea that ACA is going to go away for them is not only a economic and pocketbook blow, but it is a dignity and a life or death blow to these people. So behind all of our economic numbers, there are real people in their lives and the pain and suffering that's happening inside this data and that pain and suffering that's going to continue. But at the same time, look, the echo chamber that we did and then we keep saying that the economy is good, economy is good and it's going to grow, it's going to grow. If you look at the data again, just go no further. In the AP poll that was out, that's recently out, and you look at where independents and Democrats think the economy is poor, a slight majority of Republicans do think the economy is good. So they do keep pushing this. But Nicole, to their base and in their echo chamber, it's working to a certain extent. It's collapsing with independent Americans, but with the base of their party has not totally collapsed as of yet.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (27:24)

Real quick, last one.

Ron Insana (27:25)

If the Democrats really wanted to make a point of this, the trust that Donald Trump's sons run, he is the sole beneficiary. If you look this up, he is the sole beneficiary of those trusts, which no president has ever done this before, where they did not divest their interests in business before they went into office or immediately thereafter, he remains the sole beneficiary of those trusts. Democrats could run that commercial all day and say he's got $3 billion made since he's gotten into office and it's his.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (27:51)

And that's all. Let's do that. Why don't we pull that up? Let's look at that and we'll look at how much money they've made. Why not, right? Just for kick. Cornell, Belcher, Ron and Sana, thank you for being here. Tim sticks around. When we come back, the deadline is fast approaching for the release of all of the Jeffrey Epstein case files. And Epstein survivors and Democrats on Capitol Hill want to be sure that the files haven't been hidden away or tampered with. The top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee will be our next guest. Don't go anywhere. Pressure's on the Justice Department to release the Epstein files ahead of the December 19th deadline as required by that bipartisan law. Ahead of their release, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes and abuse and a group of Democrats in Congress are asking the DOJ's inspector general to determine whether any of the records have been tampered with or concealed. In a letter today, Senators Dick Durbin and Adam Schiff said their request is because, quote, Attorney General Bondi and FBI Director Kash Patel directed and oversaw an intensive effort beginning in March to review the massive trove of evidence in the government's possession, which resulted in around 1000 FBI personnel working 24 hour shifts and required personnel to identify any mentions of President Trump, adding this quote, to reassure the American public that any files released have not been tampered with or concealed. The chain of custody forms associated with records and evidence in the Epstein files must be accounted for, analyzed and released. And according to reporting in CBS News, quote, representatives of some Epstein survivors have also asked for a third party review to check if any record has been scrubbed, softened or quietly removed before the public sees it. The requests today come on the heels of rulings from three federal judges to unseal grand jury records in the criminal investigations into Epstein and his convicted co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell. I want to bring into our coverage Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He's the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee and has been pivotal in pushing for the public release of the Epstein files. Joining me at the table, legal analyst Christy Greenberg is here. She's a former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY and the host of the YouTube show Courtside. Tim is still here as well. Congressman, I start with you. Tell me if this request not to scrub, conceal or soften any evidence is based on a tip that someone had scrubbed, sealed or otherwise tampered with any of the evidence.

Nicole Wallace (30:30)

Well, look, I'm not sure if it's based on a tip, but what I can tell you, there is great concern both in the Senate and in the House about any tampering of evidence, any redactions that could essentially are beyond what the law and the subpoena actually lay out or what the administration may not actually produce for us. The administration right now, without even the law in place, has the ability to release all of the files today. Yet we know they refuse to continue and continue to do so. They've been for months and months and months, hiding, concealing, encouraging Republicans to not vote for the law, opposing our subpoena efforts at every step of the way. And so this idea that somehow we should just trust the Donald Trump White House, that we should trust Pam Bondi and the attorney general, is crazy. There's no question that we've got to be very, very critical about what happens next week and be very careful and thorough in our review of what we are given. But I want to remind those that are watching, and also the President and the AG should be aware that there are hundreds and hundreds of FBI agents that are patriotic Americans that have worked to put these documents together. And so if they think they're going to conceal what many across this government know may be in those documents, or if they think they're going to tamper with something that so many have worked on and tried to do the right thing, they are highly mistaken because we will ensure that the truth comes out.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (32:02)

How will you do that?

Nicole Wallace (32:05)

Well, look, we have, we believe that there are folks within the government, rightly so, that are patriotic Americans that are carefully watching what the White House and the DOJ does next week and probably in the weeks ahead. I mean, I'm under no illusion that somehow next week they're going to produce all of the documents. They may produce some of them. They may do this in a way that rolls over the next few weeks or months ahead. But I don't expect them to release everything in their possession next week. They should. It's just not. They continue to, to, to, to lie and cover things up. And so I'd be surprised if they did that in any way.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (32:40)

Are you hearing from any whistleblowers inside the FBI that they've been asked to scrub or conceal anything?

Nicole Wallace (32:51)

All I can say is that there are, there are patriotic Americans that work in our agencies that are closely monitoring what's going to happen next week. But I can't speak to that directly, but I will say that there are numerous reports from folks at our agencies, survivors Some of whom. Some of who have told us what they believe are in some of the documents. Other folks that know Epstein that also have information about what may be in the documents. The President has spent his entire campaign saying he's going to release this files and then did a complete change of heart. Democrats and Republicans across the country want the files released. He should release him immediately.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (33:32)

I want to be respectful of what I think you're guarding, and let me ask it this way. Are you assembling a record of corroboration from the victims and the survivors so that when things are released, you'll know what's missing?

Nicole Wallace (33:52)

We are absolutely talking to survivors. We are talking to the Epstein estate. We're talking to folks at New Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And so we have been in a constant process of interviews and collection of information and data. There's a lot in the Epstein files that the DOJ has that we believe we know some of what's in there. But as a reminder, what they have is an enormous amount of documents, photos, likely videos and other materials. And so we know that what we have and the information that we've collected is probably much smaller than the enormous trove of documents that so many FBI agents have worked in over many years to put together. And so we are putting as much together as we can. But the only way to get to the actual truth is to get all the documents from the DOJ and then to ensure that all of the banks, which we have either under subpoena or want and demanding to subpoena get us all the financial records. Those two pieces are very important.

Commercial Announcer (34:51)

Important.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (34:52)

Let me switch gears and ask you about a hearing that you and Senator Blumenthal had on Tuesday to receive testimony from five US Citizens who have experienced unconstitutional detentions by agents of the Department of Homeland Security. Tell us what what you have unearthed and what, if anything, DHS has had to say, because I'm sure you're aware that we're not. More fireworks today from Kristi Noem, who showed no remorse and didn't deny that they're deporting veterans of the United States military.

Nicole Wallace (35:26)

Kristi Noem is a disgrace and should resign today. And I saw much of that hearing. Today. We held a hearing with the Senate and brought forward five United States citizens, folks as American as you or I, that were all detained by ICE because essentially the color of their skin or because they were perceived to somehow be criminals in this country. We had one gentleman who is a veteran who served us in Iraq, who was detained. He did nothing wrong, was detained and put in detention for three days without access to a phone call, a lawyer, contact with his family. He told them that he was a veteran, that he was a citizen. They gave him no explanation for the arrest and they released him three days later without any charges or explanation. He missed his daughter's birthday and yet has to receive any sort of information as to why he was detained. This is happening over and over again in this country. We know of over 170 times where US citizens have been wrongfully detained by ICE. And if ICE is targeting US citizens now, first no one is safe. And you can then even imagine if their treaty treating our own American citizens this way. How are they treating people here that are on work permits or that are non citizens who are here just working or going to school or have some type of temporary residency. It is horrific what is happening right now with ICE and this agency and what Donald Trump and Kristi Noem has turned it into.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (37:00)

Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you for engaging with us on those questions. I know some of them are sensitive and we appreciate you.

Cornell Belcher (37:07)

Thank you.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (37:09)

Christy Greenberg, let me bring you in on the Epstein, the state of the release of the Epstein files. Congressman was careful not to reveal any information they have, but clearly there are some flashing yellow lights here about what will be turned over on the Epstein front.

Christy Greenberg (37:29)

So one thing I would suggest that Congress could do is look into getting a subpoena over to the DOJ for information on the document review platform where all of these documents are loaded. So the DOJ submitted a letter to the court this week where they explained basically everything is on this platform. You've got people who are able to run searches for different names and they can apply the redactions in that platform. Typically, at least when I used to run those kinds of searches and have that kind of discovery, there would be saved searches for each of those individuals. And you would know then on this date this user went in, applied these redactions. So, so let's say in March there are reviews going on for the name Donald Trump. Right. That's what some of the public reporting suggests. And that according to Jason Leopold from Bloomberg, there were redactions that were applied. So it'd be very easy to go to that platform and look at when that search was run, who was running it, how many hits there were for his name, how many documents hit and what redactions were applied. Take those numbers back for March and now let's look at what they produce. Type in his name.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (38:41)

Incredible.

Christy Greenberg (38:41)

Are there the same amount of hits for documents is his name coming up. You'll know if they withheld something. You'll know if something was redacted that's not showing up. It should be a very easy report that's not actually showing you the content of the documents, but just showing you the number of hits on these word searches.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (38:58)

That's extraordinary. I want to bring Tim in on this as well. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be right back. On the other side.

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Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (40:35)

We're back with Kristi and Tim. Tim, it strikes me as another sign of how out of touch he is, that he's literally using the same word for the Epstein files as he is for the economy, that it's some sort of hoax where, as with the economy, where there are real victims of our economic challenges, there are real victims of Epstein and Maxwell's heinous crimes.

Tim Miller (40:59)

Yeah, he doesn't have another play. You know, look, this worked for him in other areas and I think that's why he has continued to push forward on it. And it's worked for him in defending himself against his own crime times. It worked for him with the lies around the 2020 election. And a reason why calling those things hoaxes worked for him is because as you just alluded to, they didn't intersect with other people's lives. It was easy for somebody to watch Newsmax or Fox all day to believe that there was some hoax out there that was stealing the election from them, that there was some hoax out there in the Justice Department that was going after Donald Trump unfairly. I mean, it's obviously wrong and ridiculous and a lie. But you can understand how he got away with doesn't work. You can't call people's grocery bill a hoax. They experience their grocery bill. You can't call all of these women that have been and girls that have been victims of Epstein and Maxwell hoaxes. There are a lot of people out there in the country that have followed the story and cared about it for years and years now watch documentaries about it. And so they're not going to buy that. They're not going to buy what he's selling. And I think it explains a little bit why his numbers are down and why he's struggling on these topics.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (42:13)

Christy, it's so interesting what you say about a record, I mean, a digital footprint of what's been redacted. Do you think that that will become something public?

Christy Greenberg (42:22)

I think Congress should seek it. I think they should look into it because what they've asked for is an audit from the inspector General at the Department of Justice. And good luck. Good luck there. I mean, I don't think we're going to hear much from the Department of Justice unless they're compelled to provide something. And again, that digital footprint exists, it doesn't lie, so they should seek it. There is every reason not to trust them. You've got not only the survivors saying, we don't trust you to protect us and to do this the right way. You actually had a federal judge this week in his order saying this Department of Justice is paying lip service to these survivors and not treating them with the solicitude that they deserve. I mean, those are, those are striking comments from this judge and very intentional comments saying that their concerns are regrettably based in fact. I found that language in his order ends the fact that he said SDNY U.S. attorney Jay Clayton has to personally certify that they are complying with the act. I mean, these are all measures you take when this Department of Justice has no credibility with the court.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (43:24)

Tim, what do you think? I mean, Congressman Garcia seems to be signaling to anyone at the FBI who may be thinking about being part of tampering or helping them conceal something or not release everything. Basically, we're watching you. What do you think is ultimately turned over to the public?

Tim Miller (43:43)

Well, I thought that was interesting. Carson Garcia said, and there'll be some limits to that power this year where the Democrats take back the House. I think officials that worked on this should be aware that subpoenas are going to be coming from that. And we've seen the public reports at this point. You know, you played in the last segment that thousands upon thousands of hours of agents who, you know, time was spent going through all these files and like marking off whether Donald Trump was mentioned and putting it into a share file. And so we know that that file exists. And so if they release these files and it seems like stuff is missing, well, the people that went through those files, you know, might be called down to Congress when the Democrats take, which I think is likely in 2027. And folks should be thinking about that. And I don't even think that's really a threat so much as it is like a reminder. There are a lot of people in the FBI that are just doing good work. You've had Mike Feinberg on your show and others, people who are doing good work in the FBI and have been pushed out for political reasons by the top of this bureau. And so I think that those folks do know the truth. And the truth is going to come come out.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (44:53)

And you've got Marjorie Taylor Greene, who said out loud and in public, Democrats will take over. And we she was talking about, we as Republicans will be asked to defend Donald Trump in his impeachment. I mean, talking about all these things like a foregone conclusion, one, that Democrats win and two, that Trump is impeached. Tim Miller and Christopher Greenberg, thank you so much for being part of our coverage on this. Another break for us. We'll be right back on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. My guest, my friend, one of my favorite people, Rachel Maddow, makes us all feel smarter as usual. But she also, for the first time in about a year, made me feel more optimistic and hopeful to listen to the entire conversation. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download it wherever you get your podcast. And you can watch the interview, the conversation on YouTube by scanning the QR code on your screen right now. As always, let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We'll be right back.

Cornell Belcher (45:46)

Back.

Host (possibly Nicole Wallace or co-host) (45:50)

Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.

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