Andrea Flores (4:03)

It's a huge opportunity. And for any Senate Democrat right now, when I'm looking at what's happening in the culture, I'm seeing opportunity to turn those people into stakeholders for this moment in terms of immigration enforcement reforms. So this is something to be harnessed. And that's something that Trump had been really good at doing before when there was any anti immigrant sentiment. It is time for Democrats to do the same thing and say this is what the public is saying. And they're even saying it in these wrestling matches. We saw the Grammys, like how many more cultural moments. I think it's happening all over the place. Businesses are complaining, CEOs are speaking out. This is an open invitation and it's great leverage. And I'm just surprised that I haven't seen Democrats start to speak with that confidence. They have it. So start pushing Senator Thune to defend things like why should you not have a warrant to go into somebody's home? Like that's what the people are saying right now. They wanna stop those types of tactics.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (4:56)

You're almost saying instead of robust policy, which is, I know, on your agenda, but you Also understand the numbers in the House and in the Senate. Press Republicans on whether or not they stand with the administration on the pieces of these actions that are apparently very unpopular with the American people.

Andrea Flores (5:11)

That's exactly right. I saw some qualifying language from Senator Schumer and Leader Jeffries today around masking the American people over and over again, hate masking. America has never had a secret police force, so they are very well within their rights. You could have a small public health exception. That is fine. We want to protect people from, you know, diseases like Covid. However, for officers, that's a clear ask. Get rid of masks. Make Republicans defend the things that Americans are clearly saying they don't want anymore. Because that's been something we've failed to do in immigration reform. Whether you're Republican or Democrat, we haven't been good at channeling these moments for real policy change that Americans actually want on immigration.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (5:48)

So I'm not a wrestling fan, just to be fully transparent here, but I am an elder millennial, which means the time that I spend not in this studio and not with my kids and husband, I spend on Instagram. And part of what the algorithm has been feeding me lately, beyond the you're over 40, eat a lot of protein and up your creatine intake. Yes. Where the weight I bought the weighted vest. Same is, is I'm seeing all of these influencers who generally talk about home decorations and food recipes and humor, who have never been political in their feeds, feeling they have a moral imperative to assert where they are in this moment. And we'll talk with Cornell about the polling because he's the pollster. But it feels to me like there are these moments percolating everywhere that says that something in the culture has shifted.

Mini Thimaraju (6:42)

You know, we are seeing. So my favorite nutrition influencer also did a whole piece about Alex Preddy. And he, of course, he got the regular comments saying, stick to your, you know, politics. Stick to state of politics. Stick to your lane. And he was like, this is my lane. I'm a human being. You know, this is what we've been trying to do for so long with this Trump administration and the chaos that they've wracked through this whole country. The grassroots, the culture follows the grassroots. And this is what we were talking about in the green room. The people are energized, and it's giving courage to the influencers and the celebrities. The people of Minnesota and moms and parents across the country saw Liam's face, right? And they said, no, we don't want this anymore. And this is important because this is a truly grassroots movement demanding change. And this is an incredible offensive opportunity for the immigrant rights community and immigrant rights movement. You know, we took an allied position on immigration reform, meaning reproductive freedom for all members wanted to be engaged on this. They see reproductive freedom as tangential to immigrant rights. We're seeing pregnant women in ICE custody who are not getting the services and care they need. We're seeing women not going to maternal health clinics because they're afraid to leave their home because of ice. In Minnesota and Minneapolis, we sent out an action alert on the DHS funding vote, and in 24 hours, we had 12,000 members take action. Unprecedented, because everybody, it's a movement. We all care so much. So I guess it's a way of saying the culture is critical. It comes from these moments of crisis that unify. Like George Floyd, right? This is so similar. And Minneapolis being the home of. Of the same crisis, a similar crisis is important because I keep reminding my friends, Minnesota, I'm old. I'm a Gen Xer in politics. Minnesota is the home of Paul Wellstone, right? Wellstone Academy for folks who don't follow Minnesota politics. He was the consummate grassroots organizer. Minnesotans, it's like in their DNA, they know what to do. And that courage is contagious. And it is imperative on us to channel it into political power and action at the legislative level.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (9:05)

Cornell, let me bring you in for the two step that you and I tend to do on this program, which is I have now gotten everyone hyped and you now are ready to throw cold water based on the fact that you are the one who was actually in the numbers on those polls. You were the one who was actually in the focus groups. And I think one of the most salient things that I read off the top was that reporting that said, yeah, you have a voter who is very sensitive to this issue of immigration and attuned to this issue of immigration, but the economy is still her dominant issue. And I wonder how that is bearing out as you conduct your focus groups and do your own polling.

Cornell Belcher (9:40)

Well, a couple things. One, first, let me say I support everything that two guests have just said and just really smart things. And it is an organizing opportunity. And look, I think they're right. The politicians follow what happens on the ground first, right? And they sort of give them courage. And there. And there should be some courage in that data. Look, that. That clip you just played of what was happening at a wrestling match is quite frankly, startling because the cultural stuff has such importance, right? And it's these sort of blue collar non college voters who have been the face of Trump's support for a long time. Non college white voters broke for Trump by 34 points in the last election.

Alicia Menendez (10:24)

Right.

Cornell Belcher (10:24)

Now in that latest polling that you're just talking about, 57% of non college white voters think ICE has gone too far. So his policies are actually losing sort of. The people who helped brought him to the dance and by the way, are critical to Republicans in the upcoming election. 71% of independent voters in that data says ICE has gone too far. Right. You and I've had this back and forth about the, about the economy all the time. And of course, Democrats always want to dumb it down and say, oh, it's affordability. And we found this silver bullet. We got to talk about affordability as if Democrats hadn't been talking about affordability in the last elections. Right? It is as if, as if we didn't see these massive swings even in red areas towards Democratic candidates in all these elections simply because Democrats said the word affordability. Right. It's so dumb as it make your head explode. There is something bigger and larger happening out there in America, and our two guests talked about it. It's happening at the grassroots level. It's happening with the people on the streets who are upset and feeling frustrated that their communities are being torn apart, that their neighbors are afraid to come out the House. Right. So it's not just that, it's not just the affordability.

Alicia Menendez (11:34)

Right.

Cornell Belcher (11:34)

Economy is always going to be a top issue. If you ask people like I've been doing polling for a long time, it's always the economy's top issue. But the act, like it's only one variable that is driving Trump's numbers into the ground and is swinging Republican areas more towards Democrats is simply because the Democrats are talking about affordability is absolutely absurd. Right? What's happening on the ground with this grassroots and the swelling up of these frustrated people. And you can see it even with these non college white voters who again, 57% of say, ICE has gone too far. That is a startling number. And if I were a Republican in a swing district, it would put me on the seat, on the edge of.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (12:16)

My seat, there's this number from Quinnipiac. Andrea, Almost half of voters say they know someone who is living in fear from Trump's deportation policies. I think one of the challenges of talking about immigration as a policy has always been that in the vernacular, it's almost as though, like they all live over there and we all live over Here, not there is an undocumented person next to you in church, there is an undocumented child next to your child in class, there is an undocumented person next to you in the hospital. We live in community with people who may or may not have legal status in this country. And what happens to them happens to you. And so, yes, we need to care about it for them. But there's also a self interest in Americans actually wrapping their mind around this issue. And I wonder if in this horrendous moment of our own history, one of the only good things to come of it will be that there will be a whole class of Americans that are dispelled of that notion of this idea that immigration is happening somewhere else to someone else and not a broken system that they themselves are ensnared in.

Andrea Flores (13:24)

I think that's right. I mean, this issue, when I've worked on campaigns, has been treated as though it doesn't have a real voter base because it happens to people who can't vote. And that is always left out, whether it's the 4 million US citizen children with an immigrant parent, it is always left out the households who live with immigrants. And so I think this is an interesting opportunity for anyone pro immigration reform to say, we have a voter base potentially on this issue. We need to organize it. And when I think about, you know, as Americans are learning about these enforcement tactics and how it impacts them, there is an American democracy interest. This is a democracy issue. We cannot, you know, the entry point for a lot of Trump's authoritarian tactics is immigration policy. So whether that is him occupying a federal, a city right now with federal agents, that is an authoritarian tactic. There's 2,000 agents in a city against the will of the governor and the mayor. We haven't seen that before. Right. And if I were, say, Democrats wanting to get support right now, you don't have to choose between immigration and affordability. It's a false choice. Right. You can just say the very simple talking point, that they've spent $75 billion on these operations and they've also increased your healthcare costs at the same time. Or I'd say these businesses don't have business right now because people are too afraid to leave their homes. You don't have kids going to school. I mean, it's just there's so many ways to tell this story in a new way. And Democrats especially need a new way to offer Americans an alternative, and they're just being given it every single day. So I really hope that Senate Democrats feel strong in this negotiation because, I mean, we've talked about three different things here that they could start using as their new immigration messaging. Because we need a new message. True. Yeah.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (15:04)

Cornell, do you have a sense of the message that actually breaks through?

Cornell Belcher (15:08)

Look, I think there's a combination of, of messaging around. Around this, both from an economic standpoint, but also, look, you know, we act like Americans are just transactional. They're not. Most Americans make sense of their lives through the prison of their values and their religiosity. There's a values conversation here that is deeply upsetting to Americans and that has also to be a part of the messaging. I will say this, that Democrats are actually beginning to message around this. I think one of the independent expenditure groups has started running ads against Susan Collins in a Senate seat that Democrats think they must flip. They have any chance. And they're running ICE ads against Susan Collins. I believe in starting, I think starting.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (15:54)

This week, just thinking, Minnie, about the fact that sort of your core issue, the issue that your organization works on was in some ways this story during a period of time where it was visceral and front of mind. And let me just be honest, we were leading each of our news coverages with it. The reality is still there. Yes.

Mini Thimaraju (16:15)

There are still 21 states with abortion bans and restrictions.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (16:19)

And so I wonder, as you look at this moment through that lens of narrative dominance, what you think the opportunity and the possibility of missing the opportunity really means here.

Mini Thimaraju (16:31)

Well, I feel really urgent about it. I mean, this is actually the conversation we were having where I was like, this is a moment to seize. Because a couple of things. The freedom narrative is a really great message. And through line here, freedom versus tyranny. Right? Government overreach. These are some thematic similarities. Like Americans may be conflicted on immigration policy, they may be conflicted on abortion itself, but they are not conflicted about wanting to live in a country where they feel free from tyrannical government. So there is a universality of message and a framework that these certain actions by Republicans, sending masked folks into people's homes, kidnapping children, separating from their families, denying them life saving abortion care, these are signals that these Republicans are tyrannical and extremist. So from a values frame. And Abigail Spanberg did this so well in her campaign. They're the radical extremists. They want to talk about these radical extremist things. I actually do want to talk about affordability and I support freedom.

Andrea Flores (17:34)

Right.

Mini Thimaraju (17:34)

So there is a very simple shift here that we should take. And then I think from a larger movement standpoint. There's lessons to be learned that we have to keep reminding our friends, Democratic policymakers that to what Cornell said, values are not exclusive of political strategy. You have to be authentic and say, I support freedom, I support these policies in these communities. And I can also win campaigns. You don't sell out one community to support your larger agenda. And voters want to see courage from their elected officials on abortion or on.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (18:11)

Immigration want to see courage. They want to see values made to Meraju, thank you so much. Cornell Belcher, thanks for spending some time with us today, Andrea. You are sticking with me because when we come back, another striking example of the brutal tactics ICE has brought to the streets of American cities, tactics that have proven to be so politically toxic for Donald Trump, a father along with his two year old daughter swept up in a raid in Minneapolis detained by federal agents. Our colleague Jacob Smith Soboroff has exclusive new reporting. He's going to bring it to us after a break. Also ahead, what happens when Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen faced questions from Senate Democrats about Donald Trump's economy? Trump's plans to take $10 billion from American taxpayers in a dubious lawsuit against the IRS. It is must see TV for critics of this administration and anyone who cares about how Donald Trump is repeatedly using his office to enrich himself. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us. Looking for a Valentine's gift she'll truly love? 1-800-Flowers.com knows what she wants. For 50 years, 1-800-Flowers.Com has helped guys get it right, delivering millions of fresh Valentine's roses nationwide with high quality bouquets guaranteed to last. Right now, when you buy one dozen premium roses, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen for free. Valentine's is coming fast, so don't wait until the last minute. Double your blooms today at 1-800flowers.com sxm that's 1-800-flowers.com sxm.

Narrator/Advertiser Voice (19:41)

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Alicia Menendez (20:17)

When they broke the window, she started crying. And when the glass shattered, my baby's little hand was right there.

Cornell Belcher (20:23)

She had red marks and some blood.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (20:27)

That Was Elvis the father of two year old Chloe, on what ICE agents put his daughter through when they arrested the two of them? Ms. NOW's Jacob Soboroff obtained exclusive video of Elvis and Chloe's arrest showing at least six agents escorting Elvis to a dark van. As he clutched his daughter, he can be heard repeating to the agents that he wants to keep holding his baby. Afraid he later explained that they would take her away from him. In a new report for Ms. Now, Jacob writes that, quote, chloe's story highlights a concerning trend amid Trump's aggressive immigration crackdown. Children are being swept up and detained during immigration raids at an alarming rate. Recent independent analysis by the Marshall Project shows that the number of children held by Immigration and Customs Enforcement has skyrocketed in Trump's second term from an average of about 25 children detained per day during the final 16 months of Biden's presidency to about 170 children per day under Trump. On some days, the analysis found ICE held 400 children or more. For his part, Chloe's father, Elvis, feared that they were trying to use his daughter as bait to arrest her mother as well. Just take a look.

Alicia Menendez (21:43)

My reaction was to lock the car and not open it. They kept telling me to roll down the window or open the door. I just hugged my baby. Then one agent, I think he was Mexican, told me to call my wife.

Cornell Belcher (21:54)

So she could take the baby.

Alicia Menendez (21:56)

So you thought it was a trap?

Cornell Belcher (22:00)

Yes.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (22:03)

It turns out that fear was perhaps not unfounded. About an hour after the arrest, Chloe's mother said her husband called from a detention center with a message that still stunned her. They told him to tell me to turn myself in. She said not to come get my daughter, to turn myself in. In a statement, DHS responded that, quote, we don't use children as leverage. We enforce the law that was passed by Congress. Let's bring in senior national and political reporter Jacob Soboroff. Andrea is still with me. Jacob, thank you for your reporting. Talk us through it.

Alicia Menendez (22:33)

Well, Alicia, on January 22nd, I was in South Minneapolis with Connor Baric and Alex Tabett, our photographer and producer reporter. And we had been spending time driving around South Minneapolis looking for Greg Bevino and those agents on the street. And this is the scene that we came upon. I reported it that day, I believe, on this broadcast. But we didn't know who was down at the end of this alley. They had set off flashbang grenades. There were many ICE watchers blowing the whistles. And thanks to the work of Kay Guerrero, we have been able to not Only uncover that this was two year old Chloe and her father Elvis, but that against the judge's order, they were sent to Texas, turned around, brought back to Minneapolis and we were able to track down Kay. Was Elvis inside the Sherburne County Jail where he is now after going through this awful ordeal? He had no criminal record. They were going to buy a piece of fruit, he told us, and instead they were followed by and detained as if they were the so called worst of the worst. And we wanted to do this story because it is important to see what it means that a federal immigration raid can take a two year old girl, what it means for this family, what it means for this community and what it means for this nation.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (23:54)

Jacob, I want you to talk me through what I thought was some of the most heartbreaking of your reporting, which is the way in which this family believed that they were trying to lure the mother and wife out of her home with the visuals of the child.

Alicia Menendez (24:11)

Yeah, you know, Elvis had said this to us, said this to Kay, and in our conversation had mentioned it. But not until we saw the surveillance footage did it become very clear that he had made it home. He had made it to his house and he was trying to get inside. But it was the tactics of the agents that he believed was trying to use his daughter, 2 year old Chloe, as bait. I wanted to ask him about it. I wanted to see what he had to say. Let's watch a little bit of that. Do you think that they were asking you to call your wife because they wanted to take her too? Or would they have given Chloe to her and allowed them both to stay in the house? Obviously it was to detain her because she's Latina. They wouldn't have let her take our girl.

Cornell Belcher (25:00)

They wanted all three of us.

Alicia Menendez (25:05)

It's very familiar, I think, to people who have been watching this broadcast on this network to the story of Liam, the five year old who was coming back from preschool. His parents alleged the same thing. And while two cases don't prove a larger tactic, the fact of the matter is there are children in immigration custody at a rate that we have not seen and certainly didn't see in the last administration. Obviously we had the family separation policy, but the idea that children are being rounded up in this effort that's supposedly going after the worst of the worst is evidence that they're not, as I said to Nicole yesterday, they're not going to reach the numbers that Stephen Miller wants without engaging in raids just like this. And what the consequences are is a century of Suffering as a senior career social worker in the federal government said to me during the family separation policy.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (25:52)

Exactly right. And I think about Liam, his little bunny hat, and a nation that I think fell in love with this little boy and a lot of folks who rallied behind this little boy. And part of the challenge is that needs to happen for each and every one of these children. And I worry that when there aren't names and faces and cute little bunny hats that they become numbers and that there is not the same energy to make sure that they are returned to their parents.

Andrea Flores (26:19)

There isn't the same energy. I mean, I want to give full credit to Congressman Joaquin Castro for making sure we followed Liam's release and saw what it looked like for him to go home. But now that Congress is in the middle of a negotiation, the fact that they're not talking about these kids and family detention feels like, one, a missed political opportunity, but two, a missed moral opportunity because there is no legal, political or public safety reason to detain children. It just doesn't exist.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (26:46)

But the law does allow it.

Andrea Flores (26:49)

So if I'm in Congress right now and I have a real negotiating window, why isn't family detention on the table right now? Because these kids are most likely. I don't know the individual case details here, but like, Liam was part of a family that was going through the asylum process. There is no legal reason to detain asylum seekers like that. He was complying. His father was complying. And so these are things we can change if people are still energized and outraged about Liam. The calls to Congress right now should be to end the practice of family detention because you cannot actually have a criminal record to be held in the facility where Liam was held. So they're not at all. There's no nexus of public safety threat. Right. So that is actually something we could fix. And I do hear, as we were talking about culture earlier, even celebrities saying, I don't know what to do. It was Billie Eilish at the Grammys saying, I'm watching this and I don't know what to do, but we can push Congress. There is something to do. And so, you know, calling your reps, even if they're Republicans, this is such a moment to actually change a harmful policy that has been going on since I worked for President Obama. And that expert after expert says, there's no safe way to detain children. And that's what I would be doing right now.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (27:57)

Again, this reporting that we have been bringing you, it is exclusive to Ms. Now. It is from Jacob Soboroff and his team. You can read the entire story on our website. Ms. Now. No one is going anywhere. We're going to sneak in a very short break. Be right back.

Alicia Menendez (28:22)

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Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (28:30)

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Mini Thimaraju (28:32)

I'm freaking out.

Alicia Menendez (28:33)

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Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (28:39)

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Alicia Menendez (28:53)

This week on my podcast why is this Happening? I'm joined by Ms. Now's Jacob Soboroff and Alex Wagner to discuss what we saw in Minneapolis.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (29:01)

It was so emotional to see the goodness and the organization and the bravery of these strangers.

Mini Thimaraju (29:06)

Hoping that they can help someone in.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (29:08)

A way that will make maybe redirect the course of their life or their immediate, you know, next couple weeks.

Alicia Menendez (29:13)

As much as the border patrol has evolved their tactics, I've seen them evolve on the other side of the nonviolent resistance since la. That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (29:31)

Teachers in Minnesota are warning about the terror their students have been subjected to since the beginning of Operation Metro Search. Take a listen.

Mini Thimaraju (29:40)

We have community members patrolling around our schools at drop up and dismissal times to keep watch for immigration agents. We had an incredible traumatic dismissal time in recent times and we heard the.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (29:53)

Patrollers blowing the whistles around dismissal and.

Mini Thimaraju (29:56)

One of our staff members went running outside.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (30:00)

We have many students who walk to.

Mini Thimaraju (30:02)

And from school and that staff member grabbed the students and got them safely home and or back into the building.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (30:08)

One of my students told me the.

Mini Thimaraju (30:10)

Story and he said that he almost got, almost didn't make it home. He almost got taken. Our staff person had saved him. There were tears in his eyes.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (30:22)

We're back with Jacob and with Andrea. Jacob, you've already spoken about how this is large scale trauma. Trauma that will not be over once these federal officers leave. I think there's the element of this that is focused on the children. There's also the fact that these educators, I mean you and I have kids the same age. You know these teachers, they're buying jackets for the kid that doesn't have a jacket. They're making sure that, you know, everybody has, you know, their homework in their backpack. And now on top of it, they have to contend with how to keep their kids safe from federal agents. I saw a posting from teachers in Minneapolis who basically said we weren't sufficiently prepared and if we could go back and do it again, here are the things we would begin doing now. Making sure that we have contact information for parents. Making sure that we have neighborhood watch. Given the time that you spent in Minneapolis, what did you hear from parents, from kids and from educators about the way in which these systems are currently colliding?

Alicia Menendez (31:22)

Half the time you hear from parents, from teachers, as parents, little kids, it's. We don't. We weren't even equipped to give pencils to children in class this year, much less know what to do if ICE comes after the children in their classroom. It is extraordinary that we're even having this conversation and that teachers have to protect people like little Liam or little Chloe. And by the way, I'd encourage everybody to scan the QR code on the bottom right part of the screen to watch the full seven minute mini documentary we made to see what children in Minneapolis are going through in depth. One of the extraordinary and I think heartening things that I've seen from LA to Charlotte to Minneapolis is how many educators have been standing up from the very beginning. I went out with Union Del Barrio here in Southern California. I think you were hosting this show that day when I presented the report that driving around Home Depot parking lots looking for ICE officials and Border Patrol officials raiding people all across Los Angeles. Those were teachers, they got day jobs, but they're out there doing it anyways. I don't know what it is about teachers other than they have the biggest hearts of anybody perhaps on planet earth. In Charlotte, North Carolina on a Monday night, 300 people went out to a Siembra, North Carolina training event at the Methodist Church there. And I did that report for the Rachel Maddows Show. And I met a teacher named Jenny who said, I learned how to put that vest on and blow the whistle. And guess what? We stopped them from taking one person. And now in Minnesota, it's almost a science how dialed in these teachers are and how adamant they are and how pissed they are frankly about what's happening in and around schools. I was in Columbia Heights on that day that Liam was taken. The first day I got to Minneapolis several weeks ago. This is not something that any of them are taking lightly. And I think that they have emerged as the strongest and most public face of the resistance that I have seen so far.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (33:09)

To watch these systems collide, it is a reminder that none of this operates in a silo. And, you know, I mean, you've talked to parents. There are forms. Those of you who don't know their forms, parents fill out, where they say, this is my child's name. This is their medical contact. These are the medicines they're on. This is what they like to be sung when they go to bed at night. Because there are so many parents who know that there is the very real possibility that they won't be there at school. Pickup. That transcends this administration, that goes back as long as you've been living with this issue. But it is more acute now than it has ever been before.

Andrea Flores (33:45)

I think about going back earlier to talking about immigrants as sort of adjacent to our community or something that happened to our community. Look, we came out of the Biden administration and people thought, well, maybe Americans do want this. Tougher interior enforcement. Maybe mass deportations will be possible. And look, there are polls that say Americans do want immigration laws enforced. And that's an important principle. But that is not what is happening right now. And it's also not. They're responding to the reality of it, right? They are seeing, wait a minute. We didn't think it would happen this way. We didn't think as teachers, maybe we'd have to be signing up. And if those actions by all of these people protecting their neighbors is not showing people in D.C. that there's a shift leaders in D.C. that there'S a shift here. I mean, we've had two American citizens lose their lives to protect their immigrant neighbors. That's it. And we have an American city that's still occupied after that. Americans are not rejecting immigrants. They're fighting for them. They're giving their lives. And these teachers are every single day doing the same thing. So, I mean, to me, this is a sea change inflection point, really, in this. In this issue. And if our leaders don't listen to that again and then think that we're still in the same politics of the 2024 election, I just worry they're going to let down the American people on this issue. But look, the American people aren't giving up. The people of Minneapolis aren't giving up. That city's occupied, and they are still organizing and taking care of their neighbors. And if you think this won't come to your community, it will. So if you are questioning right now, calling Congress, don't question because it's coming to your city next. I already know of cities asking Minneapolis, how do we prepare? And so we should all know that we still have time to stop it and we still have a Congress that has some leverage to do something.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (35:30)

Jacob, for those who are interested in your reporting, I want to remind everybody that QR code on the bottom of the screen, you can watch the full mini doc that Jacob and the team put together. But tell us, where does Elvis and Chloe's case stand right now? Where does their story go next?

Alicia Menendez (35:45)

Yeah, I'm sorry to report that Elvis has already signed his own deportation order and his wife Nicole and little Chloe are likely going to be going back to Ecuador with him. He just didn't want to put her through this ever again. He didn't want to take her into detention ever again. He didn't want to be faced with the possibility of reliving the trauma that they lived out in that alley in south Minneapolis on January 22nd. And to Andrea's point, you know, Donald Trump said yesterday in that interview that maybe we need a softer touch. Let me just break it to everybody. There is no version of a softer touch when you are trying to implement the largest mass deportation campaign in American history. Maybe there'll be less tear gas canisters thrown at protesters. Maybe there won't. But the people that they have to go after to do what Donald Trump and Stephen Miller and Tom Homan and Kristi Noem and Corey Lewandowski are want to execute is by going after the Chloe's and the Liams and everyone else across the country that has been caught up in the middle of all this. A softer touch is not possible when you're trying to institute the largest mass deportation campaign in American history.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (36:51)

Nicole and Elvis and Chloe, I'm sure, are all desperately missed by their community. Jacob Sobroff, thank you so much for bringing us your reporting. Andrea Flores, as always, thank you for spending so much of the hour with me. When we return, what happened on Capitol Hill today when Senate Democrats asked Donald Trump's treasury secretary about Trump's plan to sue the IRS and bilk $10 billion B with a B billion from American taxpayers. That's our next story after a quick break. Donald Trump's treasury secretary, Scott Bessen testified before the Senate Banking Committee today as Americans continue to struggle with an affordability crisis. And for Besant, things didn't exactly go well. Besant was pressed on the $10 billion lawsuit launched by his boss against his own government over the unauthorized disclosure of his tax returns during his first term. Take a listen to how Bessant justified what many see as a shakedown of the American taxpayer.

David Frum (37:52)

You are fully aware that the President.

Cornell Belcher (37:54)

Is suing your agency for $10 billion.

David Frum (37:58)

We would agree. Would you agree that $10 billion is.

Cornell Belcher (38:00)

A good sum of money?

Alicia Menendez (38:03)

Yes, sir.

David Frum (38:03)

Where would that be cut from?

Cornell Belcher (38:05)

Let's say for some reason he actually wins that lawsuit.

David Frum (38:07)

Where would that $10 billion come from?

Alicia Menendez (38:10)

Again, it would come from.

David Frum (38:15)

Process wise.

Cornell Belcher (38:16)

I'm not asking like your opinion whether.

David Frum (38:17)

It'S right or wrong.

Alicia Menendez (38:18)

It would come from Treasury.

Cornell Belcher (38:19)

It comes from treasury, which comes from.

David Frum (38:21)

The general fund, the treasury general account.

Cornell Belcher (38:24)

So taxpayers.

David Frum (38:26)

Yes, thank you.

Alicia Menendez (38:27)

Part of the 440,000 taxpayers whose returns were leaked.

David Frum (38:31)

If the now, if the President, they're not suing, but president prevails in this lawsuit, he's going to be able to pocket that money. My question is, is the president, has anyone in the President's office talk to.

Cornell Belcher (38:43)

You about this lawsuit in any regard?

David Frum (38:46)

They have not.

Alicia Menendez (38:46)

And the President has said he will.

Cornell Belcher (38:48)

Donate the proceeds to charity.

Alicia Menendez (38:49)

You may have missed that.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (38:53)

Want to bring in staff writer at the Atlantic, host of the David Frum video podcast, David Frum. I'm not sure that defense from Scott Bessant lands quite the way he thinks it does, David.

David Frum (39:03)

No, no. It's plunder. It's plunder. And Scott Besant in general has been a very poor custodian of taxpayer interests. He's acquiesced in Donald Trump taxing people without Congress. There have been Trump schemes, these kickbacks to farmers to spend money without consent of Congress. You know, if there is a. There's one principle that is underlain. The last 400 years of American and then before that, English political tradition, constitutional tradition. This is the thing for which the American Revolution was fought that the English cut off the heads of the Stuart kings over is that the executive can't tax or spend without the consent of Congress or Parliament. Wars and wars and wars have been fought by English speaking people for 400 years over that principle. And Besant is the secretary who's giving it all away.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (39:47)

Okay, so this lawsuit was not the only interesting back and forth during this hearing. As you know, Trump has a new pick to be the Fed Chair, Kevin Warsh. Elizabeth Warren pressed Besant on the independence of the Fed. This was his response. This should be an Easy one. Mr. Secretary, can you commit right here.

Mini Thimaraju (40:09)

And now that Trump's Fed nominee Kevin.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (40:12)

Warsh will not be sued, will not.

Mini Thimaraju (40:14)

Be investigated by the Department of Justice if he doesn't cut interest rates exactly.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (40:20)

The way that Donald Trump wants?

Alicia Menendez (40:23)

I. That. That is up to the President.

David Frum (40:27)

Can you commit that you will.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (40:29)

I'm sorry.

David Frum (40:29)

Can you commit that you will not.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (40:31)

Hold up.

Alicia Menendez (40:34)

Interest rate you and you.

Mini Thimaraju (40:36)

Won'T be criminally investigated?

Cornell Belcher (40:38)

The President also made a big joke about you that I won't.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (40:43)

That was supposed to be the softball. And yet he can't actually answer the question. He doesn't even seem prepared for the question, quite honestly.

David Frum (40:51)

Yeah, look, I think the right answer to this question is the one laid down by Senator Tillis of North Carolina, a Republican, which is no action on any Fed nominee until these malicious prosecutions of the existing Fed governors stop. Until the prosecutions of Powell stop or the prosecutions of Cook stop. As long as there are active criminal attacks on Fed governors for exercising their independence, the Fed should. The Congress should just not. The Senate should not approve any new Fed people. And that would leave, by the way, the existing Fed leadership in place. That is the way to go. And Besant is not the person to turn to. He's obviously not someone who holds any of these principles very much to heart. There's one other exchange with Besant that I thought was very interesting. I don't know if you're getting to that, but the Venezuelan oil, oil funds, I don't.

Andrea Flores (41:39)

I don't have it clipped, but go.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (41:40)

Ahead, tell us about it.

David Frum (41:41)

Okay, so Bessant was asked in another round of hearing. Look, the President has seized oil from Venezuela again with no act of Congress. It's an act of piracy on the high seas. The United States is selling that those oil revenues and claiming that they will be used for the benefit of Venezuelan people at some point in the future. Those oil sales have happened. The money's going into accounts in Qatar. Controlled by who? Under what legal authority? There's just this slush fund of money that is supposed to be used according to executive order for the benefit of Venezuela. There's no congressional check of any kind. Again, it's money outside control of Congress. If there is one principle that goes back through 400 years of Anglo American law, it is that Parliament, Congress controls the money. The executive spends the money with the permission and at the direction of Congress. Parliament. And if you don't do that, like Charles I, you end up in a bad way.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (42:32)

Well, David from. I have about a minute left. Talk to me about the politics of all of this. The Venezuelan oil, the trying to take control of The Fed, a $10 billion lawsuit against your own government that your own American taxpayers will have to pay for at a time when one of the biggest issues Americans care about is the economy and affordability.

David Frum (42:52)

Yeah, look, this is Trump is losing some of the finger feel that he used to have for American politics. The ballrooms, the green Kennedy Center. He's thinking about what interests him at a time when, Unlike the first three years, in the first three years, when he neglected his duty in 2017, 2018, 2019, most people felt pretty good. And if the president was taking a holiday at public expense and stealing a little, they didn't care that much. Now he's stealing a lot. He's taking big holidays at public expense, and most people are not feeling good.

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (43:22)

David Fromm, thank you so much for joining us, talking us through this. We're gonna take one more quick break. We'll be right back. This week on the Best People podcast, Nicole talks to former Attorney General Eric Holder about what it will take from all of us to protect and preserve democracy and the rule of law.

Alicia Menendez (43:50)

There's going to be a lot of fighting that needs to be done to protect and to try to minimize the destruction that we're going to have to. You know, Dr. King always said that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. But the deal is it doesn't bend on its own. It only bends when people like us, that is average, ordinary, but extraordinary American citizens, put our hands on that ark and pull it towards justice. And that's what each of us has to ask ourselves. What am I going to do? What am I going to do to save this democracy and make this nation the exceptional one that it has shown that it can be?

Host (possibly Alicia Menendez or another main anchor) (44:29)

You can hear Nicole's entire conversation with Eric Holder on this week's episode of the Best People. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for spending part of this Thursday with us. We are so grateful Nicole will be back tomorrow.

Narrator/Advertiser Voice (44:43)

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