“A painful, unnecessary experience”

Summary

Deadline: White House, October 24, 2025

Episode Title: “A painful, unnecessary experience”
Host: Alicia Menendez (in for Nicolle Wallace), MSNBC
Main Theme:
This episode centers on the politicization of the justice system under President Donald Trump, focusing on the legal cases brought against New York Attorney General Letitia “Tish” James and former FBI Director Jim Comey, both seen as political enemies of the administration. The discussion expands to the broader climate of institutional fragility, rising political retribution, deepening threats to democracy, and fallout from Trump’s domestic and foreign policy choices, including trade conflicts with Canada.

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Key Segments and Insights

1. The Prosecution of Attorney General Letitia James — Political Retribution?

[00:15–06:00]

• Background:
  Attorney General Tish James appeared in court, pleading not guilty to charges of mortgage fraud. The case was initiated after the contentious appointment of acting U.S. Attorney Lindsay Halligan, following the firing of Eric Siebert (who had doubted the strength of the cases against both James and Comey).

• Defiant Statement:
  James delivers a forceful speech outside the courthouse, invoking faith in the justice system and citing biblical language:

  • “There’s no fear. No fear. I believe that justice will rain down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.” — Letitia James ([02:27])

• Case Details:

  • Prosecution’s core allegation: James misrepresented a property as a second home to save money on her mortgage.
  • Undermining Evidence: Prosecutors found evidence that supports James’ innocence: the house was purchased for her niece, who lived there rent-free, no lease was signed, and James paid expenses. A critical memo detailing these facts was authored by a now-fired prosecutor, raising further questions about the case’s legitimacy.

• Politics at Play:
  The panel highlights the broader sign of weaponized justice, with the rapid sequence of indictments after Halligan’s appointment and overt efforts to sideline career prosecutors.

Memorable Quote:

“This is Donald Trump’s revenge docket... The nuance is that no crime was committed.” — Joyce Vance, legal analyst ([09:25])

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2. Panel Analysis: Personal and Political Stakes

[06:00–15:43]

• Lisa Rubin’s Perspective:
  Compares Tish James’s combative response to Trump’s own handling of legal threats: “They are both at their political best when they are under attack.” ([06:00])

• Rev. Al Sharpton’s View:
  Emphasizes the toll of politicized prosecutions:

  • “Going through it is a painful, unnecessary experience. And Donald Trump knows that. And inflicting that on people because they were critical of you is extremely, not only immoral to me, I believe it is illegal.” ([14:20])

• Joyce Vance on Legal Ramifications:
  Outlines the possible outcomes if Halligan’s appointment is ruled unlawful—dismissal of the indictments or reassignment of the cases. ([10:57])

• Panel Consensus:
  The cases have little legal merit; the impacts are humiliation, financial costs, and public intimidation for political opponents.

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3. Threats, Violence, and Erosion of Norms

[15:43–18:33]

• Case Study:
  Christopher Moynihan, a man with a previous Trump pardon, is released on bail after threatening Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries’s life. The seriousness of the threat—combined with Moynihan’s access to weapons and history of extremist behavior—underscores growing political violence.

• Shock at Lack of Support:
  Alicia Menendez notes that Jeffries had received no outreach from House Speaker Johnson or any Congressional Republican:

“That is an untenable state for a democracy.” ([17:43])

• Panel Lament:
  Joyce Vance mourns the loss of cross-partisan civility, emphasizing that basic norms of caring about one another in government have been shattered.

---

4. Institutions on the Brink — Can They Hold?

[21:52–29:12]

• Steve Bannon’s “Trump Third Term” Fantasy:
  Clips of Bannon openly discussing plans for a Trump third term in defiance of the 22nd Amendment. ([21:52])

• Panel Rebuke:

  • Joyce Vance:

    “This is just crazy sauce… The 22nd Amendment is an absolute bar on serving a third term… The Court would have to say, ‘We no longer believe in the rule of law,’ to get around something like that.” ([22:14])

  • Vance also urges faith in democratic institutions despite recent corrosions—arguing that history suggests institutions and the people will ultimately prevail, even when the trajectory is dire.

• Rev. Sharpton’s “Plan B”:
  Places confidence not just in institutions, but in the American people’s capacity to reject autocracy—recalling Trump’s previous electoral defeat and the growing dissatisfaction among even his onetime base. ([25:34])

• Lisa Rubin’s Legal Faith:
  Compares lawyers’ reverence for the rule of law to religious faith, but acknowledges the dread if that world shattered:

“For us, the rule of law is akin to a religion. The Constitution might as well be biblical text for many of us... the idea that that could all shatter... Our entire worldview... no longer exists.” ([27:52])

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5. Trump’s Tariffs and Trade War with Canada

[31:06–44:13]

• Escalating Trade War:
  Amidst rising inflation and consumer hardship, Trump halts tariff negotiations with Canada after a TV ad airs featuring Ronald Reagan's 1987 defense of free trade—a direct rebuke to Trump's policies.

• Canadian Backlash:
  Suzanne Craig describes deep, lasting anger in Canada, including boycotts of American products and a unifying sense of identity against U.S. provocations:

“These are choices people are making that become permanent.” ([40:37])

• Economic Impact:
  Mitch Landrieu details American hardships:

  • “The number of jobs available are going down, electricity bills are going up, food lines are starting to form again... he’s bailing out Argentina... and the people are pissed.” ([35:56])

• Political Fallout:
  A Reuters poll shows cost of living as the most important voter issue, surpassing democracy, immigration, and crime. Landrieu is skeptical that Republicans can weather the coming political consequences:

“They haven’t done anything but passed a bill that made costs go up, took people’s health care away and gave a tax cut to the rich. So I think the people who elected Donald Trump because he said he was going to reduce their costs are going to rightly feel like he betrayed them.” ([38:20])

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6. The Broader Moment: Democracy, Division, and Protest

[44:13–46:18]

• Long-term Damage:
  Craig asserts that even a change of U.S. administration may not repair the cross-border trust, as Canadians have begun making permanent economic and cultural adjustments.

• Dissent and Protest:
  A D.C. resident, Sam O’Hara, sues after being detained for protesting the National Guard’s presence in Washington by playing Star Wars’ ‘Darth Vader’ theme—highlighting threats to civil liberties and the chilling of peaceful protest.

• Panel on Division:
  Landrieu laments that GOP leaders continue to see politics as right vs. left, instead of searching for common ground. Democracy and American pocketbooks, he argues, are the ultimate casualties.

---

Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• Letitia James (Attorney General of New York):

  • “There’s no fear... I believe that justice will rain down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream.” ([02:27])

• Lisa Rubin (MSNBC legal correspondent):

  • “She is like Donald Trump in that they are both at their political best when they are under attack.” ([06:00])

• Joyce Vance (former U.S. attorney):

  • “This is Donald Trump’s revenge docket... The nuance is that no crime was committed.” ([09:25])
  • “This is just crazy sauce. The 22nd Amendment is an absolute bar on serving a third term.” ([22:14])
  • “For us, the rule of law is akin to a religion... No other universe without that universe, our entire worldview, our entire structure of being, no longer exists.” ([27:52])

• Rev. Al Sharpton:

  • “Going through it is a painful, unnecessary experience. And Donald Trump knows that... inflicting that on people because they were critical of you is extremely, not only immoral... I believe it is illegal.” ([14:20])
  • “If you don’t start fighting back and beat these guys back, that’s the kind of bedlam you’re going to have...” ([14:42])

• Alicia Menendez (Host):

  • “He had not heard from a single congressional Republican. That is an untenable state for a democracy.” ([17:43])

• Mitch Landrieu (fmr. New Orleans mayor):

  • “He’s bailing out Argentina. So I think the American people are rightly frustrated... right now, Donald Trump has put... America last and the people are pissed.” ([35:56])
  • “They haven’t done anything but passed a bill that made costs go up, took people’s health care away and gave a tax cut to the rich... I don’t think the Americans are going to reward him for that.” ([38:20])

• Suzanne Craig (NYT investigative reporter):

  • “These are choices people are making that become permanent.” ([40:37])

---

Structural Overview and Flow

• Opening: Analysis of weaponized justice and politicized prosecutions of Trump’s critics.
• Panel: Deep-dive into institutional fragility, legal odds, personal costs, and political strategy.
• Case Study: Threat to Hakeem Jeffries, rising political violence, and partisan breakdown.
• Institutions & Democracy: Speculative threats to the Constitution, legal and public responses.
• Economic Impact: Trump’s trade war with Canada, domestic consequences, cross-border relations.
• Closing: Protest, civil rights, and growing unease about enduring damage to U.S. democracy.

---

Useful for:

Anyone seeking a comprehensive briefing on how the Trump administration’s pursuit of his enemies, policy decisions, and disregard for institutional norms has escalated threats to democracy, weakened the justice system, intensified political violence, and strained international alliances—with panelists offering historical context, legal expertise, and a call for vigilance and hope.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This is about all of us and about a justice system which has been weaponized. A justice system which has been used as a tool of revenge. This justice system which has been used as a tool of revenge and a weapon against those individuals who simply did their job and who stood up for the rule of law. And a justice system which, unfortunately, is nothing being used as a vehicle of retribution. But my faith is strong. And my faith is I have this belief in the justice system, in the rule of law, and I have a belief in America and all of its individuals who have stood with me, not only in New York, but all across this nation.

[C]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

I've heard from just about every jurisdiction in this nation who have said, stand up and be tall and never, ever cow down or back down or break or bend. So there's no fear today. No fear. No fear. No fear. No fear. I believe that justice will rain down like water and righteousness like a mighty stream. And I'm here to say that my work and my job and all that I do, all throughout my public career, I've stood up for the rights of New Yorkers and Americans, and I will not be deterred.

[A]

A trial now set for January 26th. If, and this is a big if, the case actually goes to trial. Tish James attorney Abby Lowell telling the judge today that they will push to challenge the appointment of acting US Attorney who brought that case, Lindsay Halligan. Former FBI Director Jim Comey has also challenged Halligan's appointment. And those motions will proceed as one case. As we've reported on this program, before Halligan was appointed, after Trump fired The previous acting U.S. attorney in the role, Eric Siebert, he had expressed doubt that the cases against both Tish James and Jim Comey were strong enough to end in a conviction. Halligan brought the case against Comey within days of being appointed and then after that, she brought the case against James. She presented both cases to a grand jury by herself, a sign of how little confidence prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia had in both cases. And there is more reporting today on why prosecutors felt that way. MSNBC reporting that prosecutors had actually found evidence undermining the central claims made in the indictment that James saved money on her mortgage by describing it as a second home instead of a rental property. And they presented that evidence in a memo last month. ABC News was first report on that memo from that reporting, quote, james purchased the home in Norfolk, Virginia, for her great niece in 2020 for $137,000 and immediately allowed her and her children to begin living in the house rent free. Prosecutors met with James's niece, who stated that she had never signed a lease, had never paid rent for the home and that James had often sent her money to cover some of the expenses. The memo concluded. Sources tell ABC News that prosecutors found no record of James collecting rent from her niece beyond $1,350 that James reported on her 2020 tax return, which was said to cover the cost of utilities. The author of that memoir was fired last week. New York Attorney General Letitia James fighting back as new questions emerge about the strength of the criminal case brought against her is where we start today. Joining me at the table to discuss, former U.S. attorney Joyce Vance. She is an MSNBC legal analyst, a professor at the University of Alabama School of Law. She is also the author of the brand new book Giving Up Is A Manual for Keeping Our Democracy. Also with us at the table, the Reverend Al Sharpton, president of the National Action Network and the host of Politics Nation on msnbc. And MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin is with us as well. Lisa, we have watched a lot of people outside of a lot of courthouses together. What did you make of that statement?

[D]

You're talking about the attorney general's statement. I thought that the attorney general was as feisty today as I have ever seen her because not only have I seen a lot of people outside courthouses and observed a lot of trials, I'VE observed a lot of Tish James. I was there almost every day of the civil fraud trial. And so I've seen her make lots of statements, and I've never seen her quite as invested as she was today. And in that respect, and I'm sure both sides will pale at what I'm about to say. But in that respect, she is like Donald Trump in that they are both at their political best when they are under attack. Remember, I watched Donald Trump turn the hallway of a New York City criminal courthouse into his press conference room every single day during his criminal trial. That was Donald Trump at his best, too. And so Tish James now under attack, really pushing back strongly, seeming to exude confidence in her case at his best.

[A]

Potentially a low bar, but fair enough. But it strikes me that I think part of what James understands here is that she is now an avatar for the fight for democracy and the attacks on democracy. I know you are our reverend, but she was speaking there like a spiritual.

[C]

Leader and quoting the Bible. I mean, you know, justice coming down like a mighty stream is biblical. And I think that you me knowing Tish James, she is a practicing Baptist. She's not just quoting something that some attorney handed her on the way to court. She believes that every time you hear her speak, she speaks to that. And many people feel that, given the and this is even before the report came out today, that prosecutors in Virginia felt that they had evidence that undermined the indictment. Many people felt this was targeted because, again, why did you fire the attorney, the U.S. attorney that had done both cases that you didn't like, bring in someone who had to go to court with assistant US Attorneys from North Carolina, they wouldn't even bring in.

[A]

They're importing lawyers now.

[C]

They had to import lawyers for this. And it seems strange at best, those of us that know Tish James, and I've known her for decades in New York politics, I don't think she crossed the street on a red light. I mean, she is that particular about. Everybody's got to be very cautious. But the absurdity of this, and it's the same charge he tried to go at Lisa Cook. I think the main thing that people will have in mind is, particularly in Virginia, is this president who said he wanted to sue the government this week for $230 million for his own cases that he had to deal with. And he said what he said out loud, what he believes he says, but of course, I have to sign off on it. I have to agree to it. So he's telling everybody he runs the Justice Department, not the Attorney General, not the Assistant Attorney General. It's me. Which, of course, is not the case, but it is the case in this administration, and that is anti American.

[A]

It strikes me that the case they have brought against Comey and the case they have brought against Jamesburg, different cases in some ways, right? Materially, they are not the same, but they are now converging. Because so much of it has to do with whether or not you believe that Lindsey Halligan was, in fact, rightfully appointed.

[E]

Well, that's true. I mean, this is Donald Trump's revenge docket. You know, there's no longer a mortgage fraud docket and a false statements docket. This is the revenge docket. And when I listened to the new reporting today, talking about career prosecutors who declined to indict, the nuance that I'm hearing isn't just that the evidence was weak. The nuance is that no crime was committed. Because when prosecutors are saying it's not clear that she did anything fraudulent when she signed off on the mortgage loan, I mean, that really is not prosecutors saying, we think that a crime was committed here. We just can't prove it. That's prosecutors saying, we don't think there was even a crime. And that's an entirely different sort of thing. So when I hear Tish James referencing the Book of Amos, I'm reminded that she's also referencing Dr. King, who used those same words when he spoke at the beginning of the Montgomery bus boycotts and when he gave the I have a Dream speech. I think she's reminding us all that this is not just Tish James being prosecuted. She came out and said that, right? That it's all of us. I think she meant it in a very visible, very sincere, very committed way that like Jim Comey, who is also very capably represented by a lawyer who will bring cases challenging Lindsey Halligan's appointment, that they are in this for the American people, not just themselves.

[A]

If a judge is to find that Lindsey Halligan were not properly appointed, what happens then?

[D]

Well, two things could happen. So, first of all, we know who that judge is going to be. It's judge Cameron McGowan Curry of the District of South Carolina. She's going to hear both motions combined at a hearing on November 13th. So mark that date on your calendar. But if she finds that Lindsay Halligan was unlawfully appointed, she has two options. One is to find that the indictments, both have to be dismissed because Lindsey Halligan's the only one, Alicia, who signed them. She's the only one who went into the grand jury, therefore the charging documents themselves would be invalid. But the other alternative for her is let's say she decides that the indictments can stand. She's also been asked to enjoin Lindsey Halligan for from functioning in any way as a U.S. attorney, which would mean she can't supervise the case, the office can't have the case, meaning nobody under her supervision could handle the case. That's the situation with the order facing Alina Hamad in Jersey right now.

[A]

Then it goes to a different office.

[D]

Well, theoretically that's one option, right, that either the president has the option of appointing someone lawfully and here he's out of vacancies to fill without a nomination. Or so the argument goes. That's the argument that both of these defendants, lawyers are making, that the president can no longer fill it on an interim or acting basis, but only the district judges can do it or he can nominate and have someone confirm. So that's one option. Or the other option is that the Department of Justice has to farm it out to a different office. But what they want in the first instance, of course, is for both indictments to be dismissed as invalid because she is not functioning properly as the U.S. attorney.

[A]

Okay. So in this choose your own adventure, that is one possibility, the other possibility, and Abby Lowell today said it's the quote, worst kept secret that they're going to file to dismiss the case for a vindictive or selective prosecution. How do they build that case?

[E]

Right, so these are motions. We've been talking about this a lot lately as a career prosecutor, every year you'd have a couple of defendants who would claim prosecutors were biased against them. They'd file these motions. And there used to be something called the presumption of regularity that said public officials were presumed to be acting in good faith. And so the judges would say to defendants, look and look, unless you've got some evidence that suggests prosecutors have acted wrongly, this motion just is going to be denied right here. We live in a different world now where in both of these cases the defendants do have evidence that the government did not act in good faith. You've got Donald Trump's I don't even know what to call it. It's the truth post that looks like a text message to his attorney general. Right. Please indict my enemies. And so that means the government's in a precarious position where a judge could permit defendants to discovery about how they treated these cases when they were making indictment decisions. Ultimately, those sorts of motions, even if the cases were righteous prosecutions, which they're not, but even if they were, they could be dismissed if a judge determined that the government had engaged in vindictive or selective prosecution.

[A]

It almost feels rude that I'm using these two great legal minds to discuss two cases that have no legal merits. Right. Because fundamentally, this is about the humiliation that has already ensued. It is about the money that is going to be spent in defense of these two individuals. It is largely for Donald Trump, the revenge, not just about the legal, potential legal consequences. It is about what has already transpired and cannot be taken back.

[C]

And I think that. That we should not be unmindful of, because it's going to cost money, it's going to cost a lot of stress, and there's a lot of bearing on their families to have to deal with this. So it's easy for people to say, when you go through this process, you'll end up stronger and a martyr. But going through it is a painful, unnecessary experience. And Donald Trump knows that. And inflicting that on people because they were critical of you is extremely, not only immoral to me, I believe it is illegal. But at the same time, I think you have to listen to what Attorney General James said today. They've got to fight this for all of us, because if you don't back them up on their heels, they will keep coming at everybody and anybody. And I think that we just saw a man prosecuted for threatening to kill Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, who was pardoned by Donald Trump for participating in a riot. I mean, this man was involved in the insurrection of January 6th. Trump pardoned him, and he has no shame. He comes back out and going to plot the killing of the Minority Leader of the House of Representatives. That's the kind of bedlam you're going to have if you don't start fighting back and beat these guys back.

[A]

And to that point, we have some breaking news on that story.

[D]

We do. Christopher Moynihan, who is the man the Rev was just referring to, was being held in a Dutchess county jail, Alicia, after his arrest last weekend. As of today, he's been around, released from that jail. He was supposed to have a hearing yesterday. We understand that he himself requested a delay of that hearing. And I expected that he would remain in jail while he awaited that hearing. No, he has been bailed out of a Dutchess county detention facility. And so as far as we know right now, he is a free man while he faces New York State charges of making a terroristic threat via text, telling somebody in his life, who then reported him to the FBI, that Hakeem Jeffries was going to be in New York City this past Monday making a speech and that he intended to extinguish him for the future. That Hakeem Jeffries was a threat to all of us and he needed to be killed. And I want to remind you, public records reflect that Christopher Moynihan has access to an AK47 because someone living at the same address is on New York State's assault weapons registry. Public records reflect that Christopher Moynihan has a history of narcotics abuse. And public records now reflect that Christopher Moynihan, according to the person who tipped off the FBI, has had a recent uptick in what the court papers described as homicidal ideation. And yet this man, as far as we know, is free on the streets, despite making a very credible threat against the top Democrat in the House of Representatives. It's not a day that I ever thought would come, and it's a shame.

[A]

Can I layer onto that shame? Last night, Simone, Michael and I had Leader Jeffries on the weeknight with us, and I asked him whether or not he had heard from Speaker Johnson. And as of last night, he had not heard from Speaker Johnson on this question of the threat on his life. He had not heard from a single congressional Republican. That is an untenable state for a democracy.

[E]

You know, it's so difficult to watch this happen. These basic norms of caring about people, regardless of political party, have been broken. And I'm old enough to remember a day when in the United States Senate and Congress, people liked each other, they were aware of political differences, but that didn't keep them from being friends and working together. And so an incident like this where Hakeem Jeffries life is threatened by someone with a prior criminal conviction that's been pardoned, that would have been an outcry that would have transcended political party. And I think it speaks to the moment where we have leaders in Donald Trump's Justice Department who claim that they are pushing back against the weaponization of the criminal justice system. While we're seeing whatever all of this is, this sort of just very low brow behavior in the political discourse, and.

[A]

Yet you are much more optimistic about the institutions than I am. So we got to talk about that. You are staying with me, as are Lisa and Rev. When we come back, on the heels of millions of Americans saying they won't bend to an autocratic ruler, here comes one of Donald Trump's loudest and biggest backers saying there's a plan for a Trump third term. We're going to dig into how to keep the fight going in the face of institutions pushed to the brink. Plus, an overnight presidential meltdown over an ad campaign targeted to Trump's signature economic policy has led again to chaos and now again, tension with one of our most important, important trading partners and neighbor to the north. What this latest aggression with Canada means here at home. And later in the show, the Pentagon under Pete Hegseth making one of its boldest moves yet, sending the world's largest aircraft carrier to the Caribbean. A huge escalation of our military presence in Latin America. We're going to look at the message that it is sending around the world. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after this. Are you ready to get spicy? These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy. Maybe it's time to turn up the heat. Or turn it down.

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[A]

Okay, we're going to show you something that typically we would not amplify. But before we do, let's bear in mind that Donald Trump's approv rating has cratered recently, hitting 37%. According to the Associated Press. The current priorities of Trump's presidency include going after immigrant communities in Democratic led cities, attacking his political enemies with rogue prosecutions, and destroying the east wing of the White House. It has all led what we have seen for months and culminated last week with the no Kings protests. Millions of Americans pouring out into the streets to protest a president who is acting like a king. The Trump administration's response has been to mock the American people for speaking out. But what's more chilling is that Donald Trump does not seem to care about the deep contempt and unpopularity that this second term has evoked. And maybe it is because of comments like these from Steve Bannon, one of Donald Trump's most prominent influencers. Does he need a third term in order to see that job through?

[H]

Well, he's going to get a third term. So Trump 28. Trump is going to be president 28. And people just ought to get accommodated with that.

[F]

So what about the 22nd Amendment?

[H]

There's many different alternatives. At the appropriate time, we'll lay out what the plan is. But there's a plan. And President Trump will be the president in 28.

[A]

We are back with Lisa, Joyce and rev. All right, Joyce, what is he talking about?

[E]

You know, this is just crazy sauce. The 22nd Amendment is an absolute bar on serving a third term. Yes, of course Donald Trump is scheming. He always does in this area. And we've seen him trying to push and normalize this notion that he might serve a third term. But despite the complaints people have had about the Supreme Court, this is one area where not only the plain language of the law, but our history and our tradition in this regard would require the court to outlaw any of these crazy schemes, like maybe he can run as the vice president and then the new president would resign. This is, I think, fanciful imagining, not reality.

[A]

Okay, so I was in bed reading. Giving up is unforgivable. And you to the, to this answer, you are just a much bigger believer. You have a deeper faith in these institutions than I am capable of sharing in this moment. So when you say to me, don't worry, no matter how messed up the Supreme Court is, they got this one, what are you using as the proof point that give you faith that these institutions that we have watched absolutely rocked by this administration are actually going to stand up when it matters most.

[E]

So I think this is the right question to ask because this Supreme Court has blown through barriers, right? I can remember thinking, oh, the Supreme Court will never say it's okay for a president to use Seal Team 6 to assassinate his political enemies. That has to be a crime. And yet here we are after the Supreme Court's decision in the presidential immunity case. I think the 22nd Amendment is an outlier sort of a. Just because there's clear law, plain law, this court, unless it were simply to say, well, we no longer believe in the rule of law, that's what they would have to say to get around something like that. But to your larger question, why should we have confidence given what we've lived through? I think this is Donald Trump's narrative, right? He wants us to believe that he's already won and that he's inevitable. And so the reason that I wrote the book was to think about, instead of just taking a snapshot of this dangerous moment to take, do sort of the video, videotape version, look across the trajectory of our history and understand that we are a country where the institutions sometimes do come close to failure. And when one institution fails, and we've had times in our history where that has been the Supreme Court, it may take years, but the other institutions sort of reconstitute themselves and protect American democracy so we can go forward. And so I took advantage of the opportunity to reflect on some of our history. You know, the civil rights movement is a great example where people who could have just as easily given up and said, this democracy doesn't protect me, my right to vote, my right to get an education. You have those people continuing to act within the democracy so that we are able to make progress. And that, I hope, is what people will come to see.

[A]

I think often of something that Mark Elias says, which is that hope doesn't mean we win. Hope means we try. And that feels like the moment that we find ourselves in. When you hear Bannon laying out plans for a third term, and they're plans, and they're planning that are already in motion. They're not plans that are forthcoming. This is why there is redistricting. This is why the federal government is trying to get involved in state elections. We are in the middle of this fight.

[C]

We're definitely in the middle of it. But the reason that I agree with Joyce on this is I think not only will it be very difficult for the Supreme Court and institutions to give on this, my backup, my B plan is the people. Let us not forget Donald Trump. Steve Bannon said Donald Trump was going to win in 2020. Joe Biden beat him. If there is, by some disaster, a 28 election with Donald Trump in it, the people will vote against Donald Trump. You can redistrict all you want. A national vote is a national vote. I don't care what district you live in, everybody votes for the presidency. He could not win the election. So thinking that Steve Bannon is never wrong. Just get your tapes out from what he said, said was going to happen in 2020. People are going to stand up against this, and they would stand up against Trump. Let's not forget you've got farmers now that are suffering, that voted for Donald Trump in red states that watched him give money to Argentina and bankrupt them because he ended tariffs to China, and China went and started doing business with Argentina, and Argentina could do what they needed to do with our money, and they did this. He did this to his base, not ours. So I think that as Trump goes on, we're looking at SNAP recipients days away from their SNAP supplicants being taken. We're talking about people that need to eat, and we're talking about the fact that this man has been totally oblivious to this. In the middle of people looking at SNAP programs go. In the middle of people looking at facing premiums going up on affordable Care. He's building a ballroom, and people are watching this. You're not knocking down walls to build medical centers, a ballroom, so your high rollers can party hardy. While we are sitting around wondering how we're going to handle with supplemental eating and deal with premiums going up on our health care. People are not that insensitive.

[A]

I have to say I have more faith in the people than I have in the institutions at this moment. When you hear Bannon say, well, there are other options, where does your lawyer brain take you?

[D]

I think my lawyer brain takes me to God knows where it takes me with Steve Bannon, because sometimes I think Steve Bannon is living in his own. You know, Nicole talks often about Earth 1 and Earth 2. Steve Bannon's Living on Earth 3 sometimes where it comes to the Constitution. But I think one of the arguments goes that Donald Trump was deprived of a presidency that he rightfully earned in 2020. And so there should be some compensatory rain check for him. I don't know where that shows up in the Constitution, much less in any statute. But. But that's an argument that I've heard them make before. But I want to return to something that you said to Joyce about where she gets the hopefulness from, because I think Joyce is a beautifully hopeful person and an exemplar in that respect. And yet I think there is something common to those of us who have an education in law, in that for us, the rule of law is akin to a religion. It is so fundamental to who we are as people and how we see the world. The Constitution might as well be biblical text for many of us. And so the idea that that could all shatter, I think many of us hope against hope sometimes that the Supreme Court will be that backup for us because we know no other universe without that universe, our entire worldview, our entire structure of being no longer exists.

[A]

Alicia Lisa Rubin, Reverend Al Sharpton, Joyce Vance, how great to have you at the table. Thank you so much for being here today. The book is called Giving Up Is Unforgivable, A Manual for Keeping a Democracy. After the break White Trump melted down over a TV commercial featuring Ronald Reagan's own words. Stay with us.

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[A]

There are alarming signs that Americans are about to start feeling the full brunt of Donald Trump's tariffs. Tariffs The New York Times reporting that inflation data had shown limited effects for consumers through the summer. Corporate earnings calls in recent weeks suggest that is changing. And data released today showed that good prices are adding to overall inflation after pulling it down last year comes as Americans are already hurting from inflation, using Buy Now, Pay later services to fund groceries. Yet despite that, late last night, Trump halted tariff negotiations with one of our key trading partners, Partners Canada, because a TV ad got under his skin. The ad uses Excerpts from a 1987 radio address he gave on free trade. Let's take a look at the ad Donald Trump does not want you to.

[I]

See when someone says let's impose tariffs on foreign imports, it looks like they're doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs. And sometimes for a short, short while, it works, but only for a short time. But over the long run, such trade barriers hurt every American worker and consumer. High tariffs inevitably lead to retaliation by foreign countries and the triggering of fierce trade wars. Then the worst happens. Markets shrink and collapse, businesses and industries shut down, and millions of people lose their job. Throughout the world, there's a growing realization that the way to prosperity for all nations is rejecting protectionist legislation and promoting fair and free competition. America's jobs and growth are at stake.

[A]

This afternoon, the premier of Ontario, Doug Ford, said it would pause the ad campaign starting Monday so the trade talks can resume. However, it will still air during the first two World Series games between the Los Angeles Dodgers and Canada's Toronto Blue Jays. Joining me at the table, New York Times investigative reporter and author of Lucky Loser, Suzanne Craig. Not only is she Canadian, but she was named to the order from Canada for her contributions to journalism. Also joining us, former senior advisor to President Biden and VP Harris, former mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrieu. It is good to see you both. You were just in Canada.

[I]

I was.

[F]

I was up in Montreal. I haven't been in years.

[A]

And what are the Canadians saying?

[F]

The issue's still very alive. You know, I think it comes of faded a little bit from there's so much going on in the U.S. but in Canada, you go into stores and there's, you know, not only just buy, buy Canadian stickers everywhere, the alcohol has still been removed from, from shelves. I did go in just to check not to have a drink, but you needed that joke. No, no, no, no. U.S. alcohol can be found in liquor stores. And I have to say what was really interesting was I came back on the last long weekend and the border was fairly busy. I've been back before when you've just been able to drive right through. And I started looking at the license plates and I found two out of hundreds of the plates to be Canadian. The rest were all us returning home. That was sort of what I found. Almost the most remarkable thing that I saw is that there's just very little traffic coming from Canada to the U.S. i have a friend who's coming down to visit, and he's asked me not to tell any of our friends that he's coming. I mean, it's real and I think Canada's really kept this alive. And that commercial that Doug Ford put together, you know, there's a huge game going on in Canada tonight, and I think a lot large percentage of the country will be watching it. It's not a hockey game. It's the World Series. Canada is in it and it has become a point of pride in the country. And that ad is going to air tonight there.

[A]

I want you, Mitch, to listen to a little bit more of that 1987 address.

[I]

Because of the prices made artificially high by tariffs that subsidize inefficiency and poor management, people stop buying. The memory of all this occurring back in the 30s made me determined when I came to Washington to spare the American people the protectionist legislation that destroys prosperity. Now, it hasn't always been easy. There are those in the Congress, just as there were back in the 30s, who want to go for the quick political advantage, who risk America's prosperity for the sake of a short term appeal to some special interest group, who forget that more than 5 million American jobs are directly tied to the foreign export business and additional millions are tied to imports. Well, I've never forgotten those jobs.

[A]

Mayor. I'll take clairvoyance for 1000. Why is that ad getting under Donald Trump's skin?

[H]

Well, ironically, there's a big picture of Ronald Reagan in the Oval Office right behind Donald Trump's desk. He ought to turn around and look at it and ponder what President Reagan said. I can't believe I'm agreeing with some of the things President Reagan said. You look at chaotic imposition of tariffs that are indiscriminate, that don't make any sense, wound up hurting the American people. I think that's what President Reagan was trying to say. Right now, American citizens are hurting really badly. Their costs have gone up, inflation's gone up, the number of jobs available are going down, electricity bills are going up, people are worried about their food, food lines are starting to form again. People are having to make choices between paying their rent, paying their mortgage, paying their kids tuition, and of course, right about now, their healthcare costs are about to go through the roof because President Trump has decided to shut down the government so that he can give a tax cut to the rich. He also is spending all of his time on a ballroom that's gonna cost 300 dol million, where he's getting the money from corporate interests that I'm sure are either being made promises to or being threatened. And he's bailing out Argentina. So I think the American people are rightly frustrated. Secondly, Canada has always been our friend and our allies. We always have friendly competitions. If you're spending all your time fighting with your friends and you take your eye off of your enemies coming to hurt you, then you got a real problem coming through. And so I think The American people are rightly frustrated with where we are. It doesn't make any sense. Just a minute ago, she talked about liquor, liquor not on the shelves in Kentucky. I mean, in Canada, that liquor came from Kentucky. And so the folks that are producing bourbon in Kentucky are hurting very bad. The cattle farmers are hurting very badly. The rice farmers are hurting very badly. The governor of Michigan and Pennsylvania have now talked about how damaged they are because of this chaos where the president just can't seem to sit down and have a reasonable conversation, and a competitive one, if you will, with our trading partners so that we can get to equilibrium and make sure that we put the people of America first. But right now, Donald Trump has put him. He's put America last and the people are pissed.

[A]

Well, and Mayor, that comes as you've got this new Reuters poll. Let's put it up on the screen. The cost of living is the most important issue for voters in the midterm. It is more important than democracy, than immigration and crime. I've only got about a minute left. But if Republicans allow Donald Trump to be their standard bearer on affordability and their messenger on the affordability crisis, what do they have come midterms to point to as their success?

[H]

Well, first of all, they haven't done anything but passed a bill that made costs go up, took people's health care away and gave a tax cut to the rich. So I think the people who elected Donald Trump because he said he was going to reduce their costs are going to rightly feel like he betrayed them in exchange for tearing down the east wing of the White House, a House that is not his, it's the American people's. But that's where his focus is. That's where his priority is. And I don't think the Americans are going to reward him for that.

[A]

Okay, no one is going anywhere. Stay with us. We got much more ahead. We are back with Suzanne and with Mitch. So when you are in the motherland and you are talking with fellow Canadians, what is the posture towards America? I mean, is there sort of like, good luck to you, go it alone? Because what I'm interested in is not just what is going to transpire in the next 48 hours. Right. Because we've been back and forth on these tariffs a million times. But there is a long tail of damage that he is inflicting on our relationships with countries we have long called our allies and our friends.

[F]

I think it is a good luck to you. I don't think this is something that's just going to Bounce back even if there's a new president from another party in the White House. I think Canadians are genuinely really pissed about this and they've made permanent changes and I think they're willing to go the course on this. It is true. I mean, you think about it, you know, Canada is sort of population wise smaller and things are bigger there. And this is about their identity. Sometimes, you know, I think for Canadians think our identity is just that we're not American. It's much more than that. And they've really embraced so many things about them. And I think they've sort of seen more in the last six months about what they have in common than what they don't. You know, provinces fight and they bicker. But I think this has really been unifying to them. And you see it at sporting events, be it a hockey game or tonight the World Series is starting, which has just ignited that country. But you see it just in the choices that they're making. The other day, it was in the summer I went to see my family and they were putting, they didn't want to put the fruit that was grown in the US in the salad. So they found like Canadian fruit to put in it. I mean this was next level. Everywhere I went, these things were happening. I mean, this is choices people are making that become permanent.

[A]

Choices that people are making that become permanent. Mayor that also impact Americans. I mean, if all of a sudden Canadians don't want to use US produce that affects farmers, it affects farm workers. I wonder just given the fact that the three of us and anyone on our network has been talking about these tariffs now for months and there have been these backs in force where we have warned that the impact was forthcoming. But then because of the back and forth, it has not quite landed on consumers exactly at as many folks are now anticipating that. Well, how you message around that, how you connect the dots and how you do it in a way that is not Chicken Little.

[H]

Well, first of all, I have to say this. In little friendly competition, I'm for the Dodgers and I hope they sweep the series. Lucky guys in Canada. But you know, again, Canada is just to remind everybody Canada is our ally and has always been a friendly ally. We ought to have robust competition and have free and fair trade. That's different from indiscriminate yelling and screaming and stopping and starting and threatening the welfare of not only our relationship, long term relationship with Canada, but the well being of the American people. And so again, just to reiterate, when President Trump ran for office, the election was Close. Notwithstanding how he describes it, it was to reduce cost on the American people. And when you add up the inflation, when you add up the loss of jobs, when you add up the impact that tariffs have had, even though it's been sporadic over time, it's all going to come tumbling down on the American. And all of the polls are indicating the American people are feeling this, including what's about to happen with the health care and their electric bills. And so I just think that, you know, from, from the perspective of not even Democrat, Republican, just representing the American people, you know, getting the cost off of that back so they have to, so they, they can stop choosing between essential items like paying for health care, paying for electricity, paying for a car, paying for their kids education or, or daycare. It's a real problem. And the President unfortunately seems to be focused. Instead of fighting our, and protecting us against potential terrorists, fighting our friends, tearing down the White House, bailing out Argentina, I think the American people are gonna say resoundingly that he has his priorities wrong, that he's got Donald Trump first and America last.

[A]

Well, and Mayor, I would add to that, I would add to the American people standing up and saying that the fact that this deal in particular has angered the gop, the Argentina bailout has angered the gop. There have, even with these, you know, strikes on Venezuelan ships, finally been Republicans who are saying, I think you are overstepping your own powers. It feels as though we are beginning to live in a slightly different moment. I wonder if you agree.

[H]

Well, I'll believe that when I see it. I am really sorely disappointed in a lot of my friends in the GOP who continue to see things right versus left. I think really what we're in right now is people who want to see us divided because they think that helps them win and Americans who want to find common ground that benefits all of us. And, you know, if people can't get aroused by the fact that the President just tore down the White House and he's bailing out Argentina, I have a hard time, you know, waiting for them to show up and shame on them for that because we're now talking about the future of the American republic and the pocketbooks of the American people, which are in desperate need right now of good leadership so that we can focus on the things that matter, matter.

[A]

I'm sports inept, but if you just want to quickly respond on the baseball of it all, I want you to have the opportunity to defend your team's honor.

[F]

This is a crazy day that we're I'm even talking about baseball and tv. So that's where we are.

[E]

You and me both.

[A]

This all right. Suzanne Craig, Mitch Landrieu, thank you both so much for being here today. After the break, a D.C. man saying his rights were violated after he was arrested for playing Star wars music, something that could only happen in a galaxy far from far away. Going to explain a D.C. resident is fighting back against Donald Trump's National Guard deployments to blue cities, filing a lawsuit this week alleging he was unlawfully detained for following the National Guard in his city around and playing Darth Vader's theme song from Star wars on his phone. National Guard troops did not take kindly to this peaceful protest, according to his lawsuit, and called a local police officer over. The officer handcuffed him for 15 to 20 minutes before releasing him without charges from his lawsuit. Quote, the law might have tolerated government conduct of this sort a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. But in the here and now, the First Amendment bars government officials from shutting down peaceful protests. The man, Sam o', Hara, told the Associated Press. When I see armed troops at our farmers markets and outside of my favorite restaurants and my dog park, I don't think, oh, wow, I feel safe. I think these feel like stormtroopers. I feel like I'm living in a Star wars episode or movie and this is like an invading dark force. We're going to keep an eye on that lawsuit. After a quick break, bypassing Congress and any type of authorization, Donald Trump sends more warships and planes to the Caribbean. The very latest on that escalation when we come back. If you're looking for new ways to get ahead, then you're our kind of person. We're Udemy and we help learners like you upskill in AI, productivity, leadership and management and more.

[E]

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[A]

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