"A payout funded by taxpayer dollars"

Summary

Deadline: White House – "A Payout Funded by Taxpayer Dollars"

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Air Date: May 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the explosive controversy surrounding a nearly $1.8 billion fund established by former President Donald Trump to pay out pardoned January 6th insurrectionists—financed by taxpayer dollars. Nicolle Wallace and her panel of legal, political, and investigative experts break down new lawsuits by Capitol police officers, Republican and Democratic reactions, the corruption and constitutional questions raised by the fund, and the broader threat to American democracy. Through interviews, testimony, and analysis, the episode explores the real-world ramifications of rewarding violent actors and the far-reaching implications for governance, law enforcement, and future political violence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Lawsuit to Block the Fund

• [06:23] Brendan Ballou (Attorney for Officers Dunn & Hodges):
  • Describes the fund as “an act of extraordinary presidential corruption, maybe the most in American history.”
  • Emphasizes ongoing credible threats against the plaintiffs, which the fund exacerbates.
  • Warns that allowing this payout sets a precedent for the U.S. government to finance paramilitaries and insurrectionists, something “we haven’t seen since the KKK.”
  • “If this fund is allowed to continue... we will be financing paramilitary organizations in the United States... willing to be violent for the President but are not accountable to the law.”

2. Testimony of January 6 Defenders

• Harrowing reminders from officers who defended the Capitol:
  • [02:43] Brendan Ballou (paraphrasing officer testimony): “I was grabbed, beaten, tased, all while being called a traitor... they began to beat me with their fists and hard metal objects.”
  • [03:12] Officer's Statement: “I could feel myself losing oxygen and recall thinking to myself, this is how I'm going to die… A man grabbed the front of my gas mask and used it to beat my head against the door.”
  • [04:25] Host paraphrase: The officer was called the N word for the first time in his life while in uniform.

3. Corruption and Political Fallout

• [09:05] Rep. Robert Garcia (D-CA):
  • Blasts the fund as “the most corrupt thing the president has actually done.”
  • Lays out how Trump “negotiated... between your own government and then hand[ed] it out to criminals... to himself, possibly.”
  • Stresses bipartisan surprise and outrage, noting, “I'm actually stunned at how many Republicans... are finally saying, what the hell is going on.”
  • Calls for oversight and investigation into the fund’s recipients.

4. Republican Response & Complicity

• Multiple instances of Republicans privately or publicly criticizing the fund, yet failing to unite against it:
  • Rep. Fitzpatrick and Rep. Kylie cited as openly opposing.
  • [19:55] Scott McFarlane: “This slush fund is as popular as poison ivy... even among Republicans.”
  • [22:33] McFarlane: No congressional Republican is officially supporting the “permanent hall pass for tax cheating”; no mass statements of protest.

5. Legal and Structural Issues with the Fund

• [23:52] Brendan Ballou:
  • Argues the settlement has “no statutory authority”; calls it “not actually a legal settlement—it's functionally the creation of a new government department.”
  • “You can't use the fiction of a lawsuit settlement to create a new government agency... There’s any number of ways that this is violating the law.”

6. Recidivism and Specific Cases

• [24:54] Host: Reports at least 33 pardoned January 6ers have been rearrested for serious crimes, including child sex offenses and rape.
  • [26:24] McFarlane: Highlights Andrew Johnson, who, after being pardoned, told a molestation victim he would share hush money from the anticipated Trump payout.

7. Broader Threats to Democracy

• [27:59] Ballou:
  • Speaks to the ongoing fight for public memory of January 6 and the peril of letting this act be forgotten or condoned:
  • “If the president is able to convince people to forget... then he can convince people to accept any attack on democracy.”
• [32:41] John Brennan (Former CIA Director):
  • Condemns the “height of hypocrisy” of compensating those who attacked the Capitol with public funds.
• [36:08] Alex Wagner (Journalist/Author):
  • Lampoons the legal/corrupt farce: “It's like killing someone and then writing down... I will not be prosecuted for murder.”

8. Congressional Power and Democratic Strategy

• [38:37] Alex Wagner:
  • Urges Democrats to use the power of the purse to stop this: “Congress can reign Trump in... This is why we have a separation of powers.”
  • Argues that reclaiming House and Senate control is the path to stopping this corruption.

9. The Administrative Overreach and Immunity Clause

• Explores the fund’s provision giving Trump, his family, and his companies immunity from investigation or audit.
  • [22:33] Host/Scott McFarlane: Notes no Republicans want to defend this “hall pass for tax cheating,” and that it’s politically explosive.

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Notable Quotes

• Brendan Ballou [06:23]:
  “This is about encouraging and endorsing violence by people acting in the President’s name, but fundamentally beyond the reach of the law.”
• Rep. Robert Garcia [09:05]:
  "He's a small, pathetic loser who has no business getting a dime to give to anybody."
• Scott McFarlane [19:55]:
  “This slush fund is like as popular as poison ivy or a dinner plate full of vegetables, even for Republicans.… I have zero statements of support for this fund from any congressional Republican.”
• Alex Wagner [36:08]:
  “This is like killing someone and then writing down... I will not be prosecuted for murder. Like, you can't just decide you’re exempt from any tax investigations.”
• John Brennan [34:38]:
  “It shows how frightened... and willing they are to sacrifice their principles... to stand behind somebody who just demonstrates corruption on a daily basis.”
• Officer’s Testimony [03:12]:
  “I cried out in pain and managed to shake him off... I was effectively defenseless and gradually sustaining injury from the increasing pressure of the mob.”

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• [00:56-04:25]: Firsthand accounts from January 6 officers—graphic details of violence, racial slurs, trauma.
• [05:29]: Sen. J.D. Vance’s dismissive comment on “disproportionate sentencing.”
• [06:23]: Attorney Brendan Ballou explains the rationale behind the lawsuit.
• [07:48]: Rep. Jamie Raskin debunks claims of weaponized prosecutions.
• [09:05]: Rep. Garcia calls the fund “complete corruption.”
• [11:23]: Exploring the future threat of violence and Trump’s loyalty-rewards system.
• [13:29]: NPR report: convicted child molester claims future hush money from Trump fund.
• [17:14]: Ed Martin (Trump’s pardon attorney) publicly advocates J6 payouts.
• [19:55]: Investigative reporter Scott McFarlane details deep Republican unease.
• [23:52]: Legal arguments against the fund’s legitimacy (Ballou).
• [24:54]: CREW study on recidivism among pardoned January 6ers.
• [26:24]: Scott McFarlane on courtroom boasts and continuing threats.
• [32:41]: Brennan, Wagner, and Wallace analyze corruption, DoJ complicity, immunity provisions.
• [38:37]: Wagner and Wallace on Congressional authority and the path forward.
• [41:10]: Wagner: Democrats must act to restore guardrails if they reclaim power.

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Memorable Moments

• The raw, personal testimonials from police officers (“This is how I’m going to die”—[03:12]) set a sobering tone and push back against efforts to rewrite the narrative of January 6th.
• Rare bipartisan outrage surfaces as even some Republicans break ranks to oppose the fund, but the episode underscores the GOP’s overall silence and complicity.
• Vivid exposure of high-level legal shenanigans and administrative manipulation—e.g., the “permanent hall pass” for Trump and his businesses ([22:33], [36:08]).
• The ethical lines blurred as self-dealing becomes policy—evident in Ballou’s, Garcia’s, Wagner’s, and Brennan’s comments on the lethal mix of violence, retribution, and payoffs.

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Tone and Language

The episode is direct, urgent, and unsparing in its criticism. The language is often blunt (“small, pathetic loser,” “slush fund,” “brazen corruption”). There is a strong sense of frustration at the lack of institutional pushback and outrage at what’s characterized as audacious, unprecedented abuse of power.

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Conclusion

This episode offers an intensive look at a moment of deep constitutional and moral crisis. It exposes the mechanics, dangers, and political fallout of literally paying insurrectionists with taxpayer money, the ongoing trauma to victims, and the erosion of basic democratic ethics. The consensus of legal, political, and journalistic guests is clear: if unchecked, the fund represents a new and perilous standard for government corruption and the incentivization of violence—and serves as a stark call to defend democratic norms before they are irreparably undermined.

Transcript

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[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Hi there everybody. It's four o' clock in New York. Two of the law enforcement officers who defended the U.S. capitol on January 6, 2021, have sued today to block the nearly $1.8 billion fund established by Donald Trump to potentially pay off pardoned violent insurrectionists. In their brand new lawsuit, the officers say this quote, the fund endangers the lives and safety of plaintiffs Harry Dunn and Daniel Hodges, officers who defended the Capitol on January 6, 2021 in two ways. First, by its very existence, the fund encourages those who enacted violence in the President's name to continue to do so. Dunn and Hodges already face credible threats of death and violence on a regular basis. The fund substantially increases the danger. Second, if allowed to begin making payments, the fund will directly finance the violent operations of rioters, paramilitaries and their supporters who threaten the plaintiffs lives that day and continue to do so. Here's a little reminder of what happened that day and a reminder of the actions of the people who may soon be receiving a payout funded by our taxpayer dollars as described by the officers who defended the US Capitol and testified before the January 6th elect committee. I felt the bike rack come on top of my head and I was pushed backwards and my foot caught the stair behind me and my chin hit the handrail. And then I at that point I had blacked out, but the back of my head clipped the concrete stairs behind me.

[Brendan Ballou]

I was grabbed, beaten, tased, all while being called a traitor to my country. I was at risk of being stripped of and killed with my own firearm as I heard chants of killing with his own gun. As I was swarmed by a violent mob, they ripped off my badge. They grabbed and stripped me of my radio. They seized ammunition that was secured to my body. They began to beat me with their fists and with what felt like hard metal objects.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

I too was being crushed by the riders. I could feel my myself losing oxygen and recall thinking to myself, this is how I'm going to die. Several attempted to knock me over and steal my baton. One latched onto my face and got his thumb in my right eye, attempting to gouge it out. I cried out in pain and managed to shake him off, Managed to shake him off. Before any permanent damage was done. I was effectively defenseless and gradually sustaining injury from the increasing pressure of the mob. Directly in front of me, a man seized the opportunity of my vulnerability, grabbed the front of my gas mask and used it to beat my head against the door. One woman in a pink MAGA shirt yelled, you hear that guys? This voted for Joe Biden. Then the crowd, perhaps around 20 people, joined in screaming, boo. No one had ever, ever called me a while wearing the uniform of a Capitol Police officer.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

So the people who did that called Harry Dunn the N word for the first time in his life while wearing a uniform of a Capitol Police officer. Those people who beat officers to within minutes of their lives, people who committed those brutal acts of violence that we all saw with our own eyes because it happened on live TV in broad daylight. Those people, all of them who were pardoned, are now also eligible to be paid out with our money, taxpayer dollars. Officers Hodges and Dunn, who you saw in those clips and who filed the lawsuit today, put it this way. In their lawsuit, quote, payments from the fund will be used to finance the operations of those who have threatened and tried to kill the plaintiffs. It's actually for all the gaslighting that happens In Trump 2.0, these facts are things that J.D. vance and Todd Blanche have refused to rule out in public comments they've made over the last 24 hours. Here's what JD Vance said.

[Scott McFarlane]

You know who never ever gets an ounce of sympathy when it comes to that disproportionate sentencing is people who voted for Donald Trump and and participated in the January 6th protest.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

That's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Brendan Ballou is here. He is representing Harry Dunn and Daniel Hodges in the lawsuit brought today to block Donald Trump's so called anti weaponization fund. He's also the founder of the Public Integrity Project and a former special counsel in the Department of Justice. Also joining us, Scott McFarlane. He's the chief Washington correspondent for Midas Touch. He's done extensive investigative reporting in and around the Capitol insurrection, including the prosecutions, the event itself, the sentencing, the trials of the rioters, and everything that's happened since then. Brendan, first tell me about the lawsuit.

[Brendan Ballou]

Yeah. So, you know, this is a act of extraordinary presidential corruption, maybe the most in American history. But it's more than just corruption. You know, as you were talking about, you know, my clients Danny Hodges and Harry Dunn, you know, could have died on January 6. But the threats didn't stop there. They have continued to receive credible death threats for years for speaking out about January 6th. And what could happen here is that the very people who threaten their lives on January 6th and beyond could suddenly be getting millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. And what I want people to understand is that this is about more than just corruption. This is about encouraging and endorsing violence by people who are acting in the President's name, but fundamentally beyond the reach of the law. And if this fund is allowed to continue, if this is allowed to disperse money, what we will be doing in America for the first time since the KKK is financing paramilitary organizations in the United States, militias, insurrectionists who are willing to be violent for the President but are not accountable to the law.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

I want to bring into our coverage the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee, Congressman Robert Garcia of California. Congressman, thank you for being here. I want to play what your colleague, Congressman Jamie Raskin said about this so called weaponization fund at a hearing today.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Not a single J. Sixer has had charges thrown out because of a false, malicious or retaliatory prosecution. Not a a single one has had their criminal conviction reversed on appeal because of a false, malicious or retaliatory prosecution. The idea that they were falsely or maliciously prosecuted has not been found by a single judge, Republican, Democratic or independent appointee. And this is a defamatory slur on law enforcement and the serious civil servants at the DOJ who have been under attack since this nightmare of MAGA weaponization began in January of last year. False, malicious and retaliatory prosecutions are how Donald Trump and his DOJ operate. Not real law enforcement, not real prosecutors.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

It's an important, I think, alignment right of every judge, whether they were appointed by Democrats or Republicans, has upheld the convictions, the criminal convictions of the insurrectionists. Not one of them has found any one of them to be retaliatory or the result of a weaponized Prosecution. What do you make of both the announcement of the fund and the lawsuit on behalf of officers to stop it?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

I mean, first, let's be really clear. This fund is completely outrageous. It's complete corruption from the most corrupt president in the most corrupt administration in the history of our country. And, and this fund might be the most corrupt thing that the president has actually done. On top of the crypto funds, the real estate deals, selling access to the White House, the investment funds, the idea that you're going to take $1.8 billion, that you negotiated yourself between your own government and then hand it out to criminals, to traitors, to election deniers, to, to Donald Trump's friends, for all we know, to himself, possibly. We have no idea what Donald Trump is thinking. We're here and right now I'm actually stunned at how many Republicans on the Hill are actually finally saying what the hell is going on. And I would hope that the Speaker, Mike Johnson, would actually have a backbone to denounce his fund. I support Jamie Raskin's efforts and oversights. Also going to be involved in looking at who actually gets these funds and what corruption is actually happening there.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Say more about Republicans speaking out against the fund.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Look, I've talked to some colleagues, I was in a committee earlier that were discussing it. Hopefully some of them will, will be a little bit louder in their comments. But you are hearing whether it's Representative Fitzpatrick and others coming out very clearly, Representative Kylie coming out and saying this is crazy, what this is corruption. And I think we've got to hear more Republicans saying that there isn't, there shouldn't be an American on the ground anywhere in this country that should support what's happening. He is stealing your money. He is stealing our money directly from your pockets and putting it into his and into the pockets of his friends. And the complete lack of, of respect for law enforcement to give a penny to the January sixers of people that invaded this Capitol, that attacked this Capitol, that try to overthrow an election, just goes to show you the kind of man that Donald Trump is. He's a small, pathetic loser who has no business getting a dime to give to anybody.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

There's a real threat that's been articulated through legal experts and through the officers themselves that if the people who carried out violence and their mission statement that day was actually to, quote, hang Mike Pence, that was what they were there to do. And the reason J.D. vance is the current vice president is because that relationship couldn't be recovered after Donald Trump was unrepentant about his supporters chanting, hang Mike Pence, that that was the mission, one of the missions of the insurrection. What do you make of the fact that the insurrectionists themselves have now been pardoned and he seeks to pay them? How does that play out in terms of future threats of violence?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Look, it's crazy and insanity that an American president wants to compensate people that attacked the Capitol, people that tried to essentially murder the vice president, people that were caused harm to police officers on the ground. There were people across this Capitol, people that were on the staff, that were law enforcement, where they were members of Congress, that were in terror and that still are suffering, in many cases, the ramifications of what happened that day. And we know that these January Sixers, many of them, have gone on to commit additional crimes. There's no judge in the country that will support what they did. They all believe that they should have justice and pay the price. And yet Donald Trump is obsessed with retribution. He's obsessed with going after anyone that he believes has wronged him. And he weaponizes the government in the favor of his allies. He's also sending a clear message that if you are loyal to Donald Trump, he's always going to compensate you. And that is a dangerous place to be for democracy. So I support this lawsuit. Of course, that is in place. We've got to support. We've got to support additional legislation that's coming out of our committees based on this fund. And then we've got to investigate who the recipients of this fund is going to be and what corruption is likely there as well.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

NPR reported. And this came up in the questioning yesterday. I think Senator Chris Van Hollen had a line of questioning to this effect with Todd Blanch that a convicted child molester who's been adjudicated and is serving a life sentence in prison told one of his child victims of molestation that he was coming into a lot of money and that this child victim of molestation had to keep quiet. And if he did keep quiet, this insurrectionist would give him some of the restitution that he'd been promised from the Trump administration. Will the investigation include sort of the premeditation and the communications? Obviously, this is a convicted child molester who went on to commit more crimes after he was pardoned for being an insurrectionist. How did he know that there was a slush fund coming his way? Will you be able to get to the bottom of questions like that?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Those are exactly the questions that need answers. And in the case that you're describing, obviously horrific. Every single one of these J6ers or the election deniers or whoever else gets this money needs to understand that we are going to investigate you. We are going to ensure that the American taxpayer understand every single piece of how this happened. Who knew? What did the President tip people off? Were folks in his orbit letting people know that they were actually going to. That this deal was going to happen? Which, of course, Donald Trump essentially between him, between him, his own government, himself negotiated. And how, how on earth can this Congress stand by and not have hearings, investigate what is one of the most brazenly corrupt actions by anyone, certainly an American president in our history? I mean, Donald Trump leaves anyone in the past. I mean, think about Nixon, you think about Watergate, you think about other actions in the past. Donald Trump is stealing from the American public in broad daylight, and Mike Johnson and John Thune are saying absolutely nothing.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

I want to ask you about someone who's aligned himself with your work on the Epstein Transparency act from the other side of the aisle. Thomas Massie, who lost his primary last night. He had a little. I mean, I've watched a lot of victory speeches. I've watched a lot of concession speeches. He had a little glint in his eye about the work he could do in the next seven months as a sitting member of Congress. Have you talked to him or do you, do you know what sort of work, in terms of being unshackled from having to appease Donald Trump, he had in mind?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Look, I don't. I don't know what obviously Tom is going to do next. And I think whatever he decides will be really interesting to see. What I do know is that I never doubted that he was a patriot and love this country. We obviously disagreed on most things, and I think that was clear. However, what he has done, his legacy, on protecting survivors, on getting the Epstein Transparency act into law, on always standing up for his values. Kentucky, what he believed was the Republican Party is unmatched. And he would always willing to stand up to Donald Trump, to Mike Johnson. He stood up for survivors. He stood up for ensuring that we had the right subpoenas in place, that we were pushing issues around. Penn Bondi testifying. And for that, I think that the country should be grateful for his service in those areas. And I think it's really unfortunate that someone that was so involved in pushing back lost his primary. It's a really sad night. Donald Trump again now strengthens his hand over his party and proves to the rank and file that he's going to come after you if you don't follow

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

him every single time, even when it's wildly unpopular. Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you for taking time to talk to us today about all this. We are appreciative. We're going to turn back to Brendan Belew and we haven't talked yet with journalist Scott McFarlane. We'll also get to some new reporting on Donald Trump's very, very MAGA pardon attorney who's been promising the January six defendants this big payday for months. We'll bring you that reporting next. Also coming up, be careful what you wish for. Donald Trump and his allies in Washington while pushing for what we've been discussing, this unflinching loyalty could soon find their party's agenda in even more trouble. We'll look at what happens when outgoing lawmakers find their independence, as Thomas Massie did last night, and their voice now they're not running for office anymore. We have all those stories and more when Deadline White HOUSE continues after quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

What I am for is if you lock somebody up at three plus years in jail on a lie and you, Lisa Monaco and Merrick Garland knew it was a lie and you hammered them, you know what? They probably should get their, I don't know, their car back. They should probably get their job back. They might need to get their military benefits back. I think they should get paid back for being destroyed by their government. We shouldn't be afraid. Oh, you want to pay J6ers? You're dead. Damn right I want to pay J6ers.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

That was Ed Martin doing away with the Trump 1.0 term, saying the quiet part out loud. Now it's just all the loud part out loud all the time. Importantly, Ed Martin serves as the pardon attorney for Donald Trump. He's the one who's been advocating very publicly for the payment, cash payments for the J6ers, who he has used to grow his political career inside Donald Trump's orbit. It appears now that his plans, which he talked about on podcasts, have come to pass. NBC News reports that earlier this year that guy, Ed Martin, predicted that the Justice Department would do this, would dole out millions of dollars to those Gen Sixers who'd been charged and then later pardoned for participating in the riot at the Capitol. That's according to two people familiar with the matter. Ed Martin estimated it would be something along the lines of $40 million. As people said. Of course, the pot ended up being much, much, much larger. DOJ denies, Ed Martin said. What is in the NBC News reporting. We're back with Brendan and Scott. Scott I guess the good news here is what the congressman was alluding to. You know, how bad is it? It's so bad, even terrified Republicans are vowing to, quote, kill it.

[Scott McFarlane]

There are so many Republicans coming out against this thing. Nicole it appears to me this slush fund is like as popular as poison ivy or a dinner plate full of vegetables, even for Republicans. I've got a whole list here. Brian Fitzpatrick told me he wants to just kill this thing. Fitzpatrick won a primary, faces a tough reelection in Pennsylvania. David Schweikart, frontline Republican in Arizona, says he is very Parents, have you heard

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Scott McFarlane]

concerned, deeply concerned about the money. And Don Bacon says he's not sure how Trump got this whole lawsuit settled. How do you negotiate against yourself? He. He's troubled, but I go deeper here. There are some MAGA Republicans who are equivocating. Clay Higgins of Louisiana, I asked him if he's comfortable with the payout. He says he's comfortable having a conversation about how this works. And Lindsey Graham says he wants to see what happens when it gets to the Senate floor. Nicole, that presumes this thing even goes to the Senate floor. It would be Republicans who put it there. Nobody is claiming ownership of this thing. I have zero statements of support for this fund from any congressional Republican.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

I mean, you raise a good point. I mean, the fund also includes this insane statement that came out a little bit after Todd Blanche's testimony that says that from now till the end of time, Donald Trump can never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever be investigated or prosecuted for tax crimes. Can never, ever, ever be audited. Neither can his kids, neither can his companies. They're doing all sorts of foreign deals and business with the government and the Pentagon and whatnot. Are they speaking out about that part of it as well?

[Scott McFarlane]

Same dynamic with this idea of a permanent hall pass for tax cheating, that there are no Republicans declaratively saying, that's a great idea. I support it. I'm going to go home to my constituents and champion this too. None of this is happening in a vacuum though, right? Nicole, if you're running a campaign and you know the issue you want to hit on is prices and affordability, do you want to carry the baggage that is a Trump inspired taxpayer funded payout to himself, to his supporters, to violent rioters who maimed, beat and in some cases blinded police? And do you want to be there for them when they use taxpayer money for the ballroom? All of this type of thing infuses a wave that is clearly forming. And I want to add one note to all the misinformation I'm filling a notebook with misinformation spreading about January 6th today idea that these cases were wrongful. No case was overturned, not a one on appeal. And lots of people appealed. And as Brendan would tell you, they had a 100% success rate for juries at trial. If you ever been on jury duty, you know how impossible it is to get 12 people to agree on a lunch order. They got every single jury, dozens of them, to agree to convict.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Brendan, what is that? If you pull that thread forward, just talk about your legal strategy for blocking the fund in court.

[John Brennan]

Yeah.

[Brendan Ballou]

So the basic problem that the government has is that has absolutely no statutory authority to enter into a settlement like this. And it really, frankly isn't even a settlement. So the first problem that you have is this was a sham settlement based on a lawsuit that lacked what lawyers would call subject matter jurisdiction. So there wasn't even really a case to settle. But even if there were, what this is, is not actually a legal settlement. It's functionally the creation of, of a new government department or agency, one that the attorney general is going to get to appoint the members for the president, is going to get to remove those members, and it's going to be their discretion ultimately about how this money gets spent. And so, you know, the analogy that I use is you can't use the fiction of a lawsuit settlement to create a new government agency like the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or the FCC or something like that. And you can't do that to create this sort of legal monstrosity that they're doing right now. So there's any number of ways that this is violating the law, obviously.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Scott, let me bring back to, I think, everyone's awareness what this group of people have done. In addition to the footage we started the hour with beating almost to within inches of consciousness and some feared for their own lives. Cops after they were pardoned, 33 pardoned insurrectionists have gone on to commit other charges, other criminal, other crimes. This is from crew. Quote, at least 33 January 6th insurrectionists pardoned by Trump have been rearrested, charged or sentenced for other crimes since January 6, 2021. According to new analysis by CREW, six of the pardoned January 6 insurrectionists are charged with committing child sex crimes ranging from sexual assault to possession of child pornography. At least five were charged with illegal possession of weapons, including at least two who had a previous domestic violence conviction. Five were arrested or charged with driving while impaired or under the influence. In two of the cases, the defendant's reckless driving resulted in a fatality and a death. Two were charged with rape. These are serious violent crimes, child sex crimes, rape, and domestic violence. Those are the people who Donald Trump pardoned. That in normal times is a political scandal of a century, but now those are the people who J.D. vance and Todd Blanche won't rule out paying.

[Scott McFarlane]

A lot of people I talk to who are victims of January 6, the staffers, the police do not like. The vice president using the term January 6th protest from the briefing room yesterday. But let's put that aside for a moment. You mentioned the recidivism, the people who've been charged with new crimes in the months since their pardon. It includes the case you referenced earlier, the case of Andrew Johnson of Florida, who not only was convicted of molestation, but according to police, told the victim he could provide hush money from the payout he planned to get from Trump down the road. I can tell you, in the courtroom, watching those cases, watching those prosecutions, there was so much unapologetic boasting about future pardons or future glory from the defendants, even to their own detriment. Nicole during their criminal cases, they knew this date was coming. They sensed this day was coming. I think it's one of the reasons why the victims of January 6, including the plaintiffs who are filing the suit with Brandon, feel like they need to make a change here. We cannot vindicate, lionize and enrich people who beat cops.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

It's just amazing that that's a partisan statement or a controversial statement. Brendan, I know you're representing Harry Dunn and Daniel Hodges. Country got to know many of the officers through the public hearings, the January 6th select committee hearings. But I wonder what you're hearing from the broader group of officers, those who became. We heard for ourselves from Officer Michael Fanone yesterday. He described the slush fund as an effing disgrace in his characteristically blunt way. But what are you hearing from other officers who may not be as public?

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Yeah.

[Brendan Ballou]

And you know, Scott and I have sort of, you know, been following this for years. Sort of knew each other down the hallway in the DDC courtroom when I was prosecuting cases. And he was following them, you know, and I think we both have talked to any number of folks that were affected by January6 who, you know, see this as part of a broader story, a story to try to rewrite the history of that day so that people either forget about the attack on the Capitol or worse yet, condone it. And the reason that that matters so much, the reason why we're still having a fight over something that happened over five years ago, is if the president is able to convince people to forget or accept the attack on the Capitol, then he knows that he can convince people to accept any attack on democracy. And so, you know, the people that I talk to understand that this fight over the past is really a fight over the future. And it's absolutely essential through this sort of litigation, through other cases, through advocacy, through reporting, that people understand what January 6th was.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Brendan Bellew and Scott McFarland, two people who help us do that. Thank you both so much for starting us off today. After the break, someone who's been on the receiving end of Donald Trump's attempts to weaponize the Department of Justice will talk to the former director of the CIA about Donald Trump's takeover and corruption of the federal government. Stay with us,

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[Nicole Wallace]

Subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNOW's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace Why is this happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite Ms. Now shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, including Rachel Maddow Presents Burn order. Subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Brendan Ballou]

I don't know how it will work and how it will be administered. Kiddingly want to know. Do I get to apply? Do all victims of weaponization get to ask for attorneys fees? We'll have to see. Would you submit a claim? I might. Maybe just to be humorous about the whole thing. But if it's for people who've been targeted for reasons other than the normal standards of the Department of Justice, I'm ready to get in line.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

This former director of the FBI, Jim Comey, Monday night. Now, beyond the brazen flagrant corruption of the $1.8 billion slush fund, there's also the blatant irony of the fact that the rule of law has never been weaponized, as official stated U.S. government policy, until Donald Trump directed it to be weaponized against his perceived political opponents. As the New York Times editorial board writes today, quote, the Trump administration has already fired federal agents who did their duties. By investigating the president's attempts to overturn the 2020 election, Trump has issued blanket clemency to more than 1,500 January 6 rioters, some of whom may soon receive payments. His Justice Department secured an indictment of Jim Comey, the former FBI director, on dubious charges as retribution for his role in investigating the 2016 Trump campaign's ties to Russia. The fund continues the effort to turn law enforcement into a tool of raw political I want to bring in the former director of the CIA, our senior national security and intelligence analyst, John Brennan. Also joining us, senior political analyst, the host of Runaway country on crooked My friend Alex Wagner is here. She's also the author of the forthcoming book the Four Right Wing Hardliners, One Republican Presidency and the Raid on America's Courts. We can't wait to talk to you about that in the coming days and weeks. Director Brennan, I start with you on what feels like a frequency and a flurry of conduct and an uptick in brazenness and audacity on the weaponization of the instruments of government, especially inside the Department of Justice. What are your thoughts?

[John Brennan]

Yeah, well, when I saw the reports about the slush fund, I was astounded by the height of hypocrisy that individuals who were prosecuted appropriately and fairly for engaging in criminal activity, including for the assault against our nation's capital, may be compensated or paid off by this taxpayer fund. And so it's just, it's hard to imagine that they were going to be compensated for it while this Department of Justice, this administration, is engaged by any objective measure in a campaign of retribution against individuals who had the temerity to speak out and speak up against Donald Trump and his actions and policies. And so, again, the contrast couldn't be stark marker. But it's unsurprising also, because as we've talked many times before, the extent and depth of, of corruption and graft and grift in this administration, I think knows no bounds. And so clearly, this is what we are seeing the latest example of. And I think, you know, Donald Trump, with a very compliant acting attorney general, is going to continue to push the bounds here.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Donald Trump has a playbook. He does something audacious and shocking and unprecedented. He has in 2.0 a cabinet that plays their role as henchmen and stooges. Well, not doing things that Trump didn't want to do in the first term, but doing things that Jeff Sessions or Jim Mattis or even Bill Barr wouldn't do. What do you make of the absence of really vocal, unified objection from Republicans in Congress? Scott McFarlane is a fantastic investigative reporter who in his note, a list of three or four Republicans, but there weren't any statements put out en masse. The leaders didn't go to the steps and say over, you know, no way, no how are we doing this? It's all still pretty meek for something so to your point, brazenly corrupt.

[John Brennan]

Yeah, I think it shows a couple of things. One is how frightened and scared these individuals are of any type of reaction or retaliation by Donald Trump against them, as is evident in the recent primaries and his endorsement of those candidates who are going against his perceived enemies. And secondly, it just shows how willing they are to sacrifice their principles, their ethics, their morals to stand behind somebody who, again, just demonstrates corruption on a daily basis. And so obviously, these are the enablers. And as we've talked before, even recently, yes, a lot of this is laid on the doorstep of Donald Trump in terms of what he has done. But it is those enablers, particularly those members of Congress, those government officials who have taken an oath of office to the Constitution, who turn a blind eye to the rule of law and doing the right thing in order to appease Donald Trump and give him what he wants, to enrich himself and to enrich those around him.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

It is amazing, Alex, that he's, you know, the corruption of DoJ happens without anyone in DoJ saying anything about it, but the enrichment of himself and the carving out of himself and his businesses and his kids for immunity from any further investigation or audit from the IRS is so politically toxic that I wonder what you make of perhaps the political gift their silence gives Democrats.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just so blatant. It's such clear corruption. And it's also, I don't think it'll hold up in a court of law. I mean, for my podcast this week, I was talking to Andrew Weissman, and he said, this is like killing someone and then writing down on a piece of paper, I will not be prosecuted for murder. Like, you can't just decide side. You can't just make an agreement with the IRS that you're exempt from any tax investigations and that your family and businesses are equally exempt. I mean, so there's the legal and judicial piece of this, but then there's the political piece of this, which is. I mean, all of this is happening at a moment when Americans are paying more for their groceries than ever. Skyrocketing fuel costs, health insurance premiums that are through the roof, an administration that is getting an F on its shepherding of the American economy. And what is Trump doing? Saving himself potentially 100 million doll in tax penalties with this fake agreement with the IRS and funneling $1.8 billion to his lackeys and stooges who have done his bidding as a symbol that if you help overturn the results of an election or try to, Trump will grant you pardons and payouts. And he's doing this a few months before the midterms, where he's very much on track to lose both houses of Congress.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Yeah, I have just seen a break, but I want to talk more about sort of the sleeping political giant that he's awoken with all this flagrant corruption. Alex and John Brennan. Stick around. We'll be right back. We're back with John Brennan and Alex Wagner. Alex, the New York Times editorial board seems to be taking the step back and writing for the moment, writing for the history of this moment. Let me read what they have written today. It's worth pausing to put this fund into the larger context of Trump's political project. He's destroying pillars of American democracy to empower himself. He claims elections are legitimate only if he wins. He uses federal law enforcement to investigate and prosecute his perceived enemies. He purges his party of officials who defy him. He describes members of the other party in civil society as traitors and enemies. He incentivizes his supporters to break the law on his behalf and rewards them when they do. He directs his allies to change election rules to keep his party in power. They're certainly tying it all together with evidence that what he's doing is undeniable. What do you think the reaction is or should be?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, I think, like as it concerns the slush fund, the best option here is for Democrats to retake the House and Senate and put an end to this. I mean, Congress is vested with two sacrosanct powers. One is the authority to go to war, and the other is the power of the purse on both. Congress can reign Trump in. I mean, I think they're making real overtures towards reining him in on Iran. But in terms of the slush fund, I mean, this is why we have a separation of powers. What is the point of having a legislative branch if the President can make up phantom lawsuits, then settle them with himself and appropriate billions of dollars to be used to his own ends with no transparency allocated by a commission of his choosing? I mean, it makes no sense. This is. This has nothing to do with the Constitution and it doesn't pass the smell test. The body that can be stop. This is Congress. If Democrats needed a better argument for why they should regain the gavel in the House and control the Senate chamber, this is it.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Yeah, I mean, Director Brennan, one of the most remarkable moments in Todd Blanche's testimony was when Senator Van Hollen said, well, you have the power to appoint four of the five commissioners. And Blanche said, no, all five. I mean, they're not even trying to hide their big fat thumbs on the scales of any even fraudulent attempt at justice.

[John Brennan]

Yes, and I think the New York Times is exactly right. You know, Donald Trump has been a very, very consequential president, but virtually everything is the destruction of those institutions, the rule of law. He's trampled traditions, he's trampled our reputation globally in terms of what he is doing, the Iran war, other types of things. So, again, I'm hoping that this, you know, blatant corruption, as well as what I think is incompetence, as well as the impact particularly on economy, is going to come home to roost in November, especially among the independents, who basically have been kept out of a lot of the primaries, you know, as Donald Trump has been able to get his favorite candidates to win Republican primaries. But if those independents see that the Republican Party itself is corrupt also because they follow Donald Trump, I'm hoping that's going to lead to a real sea change. Both in the House and the Senate come November.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Alex, are Democrats ready?

[Alex Wagner]

Sorry? Are Democrats ready?

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Are the Democrats ready to do that work? I mean, you look at the sort of. I mean, you look at the work on Epstein and it seems like they have built bipartisan coalitions. It seems that they have taken their subpoenas to court. It feels like they have done this work already in preparation for having real accountability and oversight over the corrupt acts of the executive branch.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And I think there are a lot of people who are disappointed by how Democrats conducted themselves the last time they had power. The transgressions and the corruption. The unconstitutionality of this administration is so profound, it is eye watering. Right. Like the slush fund is just. It's like the most explicit example of the corruption, but it is coming on the heels of just an extraordinary run. And I think Democrats realize that when they get power again, the alarm bells are so ringing that they're shattering. They're ringing so loudly, they're shattering themselves and they really need to sack up. Sorry, I know it's a family program. And do something serious to reestablish some guardrail. Trump has shown us the holes in the fabric of our democracy and it is up to whoever is a real legislator to patch them.

[Host (MSNow Anchor)]

Yeah. And I think the public's behind them. I mean, I think you take some issues where the public splits on partisan lines, but on the issue of corruption, traditionally that's been unpopular across the spectrum. Director John Brennan, we are always grateful when we get to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining us today. Alex sticks around a little bit longer after the break. We remember a Democratic trailblazer and an outspoken critic of Donald Trump, who even in his final days was still speaking out. Some sad news to tell you about. Former Congressman Barney Frank, a Democratic icon and the architect of the landmark Dodd Frank act for Wall street reforms, died at the age of 86 after he entered into hospice care last month for congestive heart failure. Frank was a trailblazer. He was the first member of Congress to come out as gay voluntarily and the first member of Congress to enter into a same sex marriage. Speaker Emeritus Nancy Pelosi remembered him this in the wake of the financial crisis, he was a force for reining in an out of control financial system, establishing a consumer financial protection agency and improving transparency in the markets. All of us fortunate enough to serve alongside him were blessed by his boundless knowledge, sage wisdom and great humor. We will also remember him as a fighter till the end. In an interview with Politico last month as he entered hospice, he said this quote, one of my regrets is that I won't see the continued implosion of Donald Trump. When we come back, the continued implosion of the Trump administration. We'll pick up on that theme after a quick break. Stay with us.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sunday, June 14, from Washington, D.C. a special live taping of MSNOW's hit podcast, the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Join her as she talks with actor and author Billy Eichner. They'll explore the power of humor in the face of adversity. And Eichner's new audio memoir, billy on Billy the Blueprint with Jen Psaki live with Billy Eich Eichner. Get your tickets today at sixthandi.

[Congressman Robert Garcia]

Org.