← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“A pivotal day”
00:42:32
Alicia Menendez — in for Nicolle Wallace — on the latest probe on Capitol Hill into the Epstein case, Donald Trump’s threats to free speech, and a dismissed Trump lawsuit.
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- [00:00]
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Alicia Menendez
Hi there everyone. It is 4 o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace in the middle of a pivotal day on Capitol Hill for the probe into the government's handling of the Jeffrey Epstein case. At this hour, the House Oversight Committee, they are still in their closed door meeting with Alex Acosta, the former U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida and Donald Trump's former labor secretary. Now you'll recall Acosta led the negotiation of that highly controversial 2008 plea deal that shielded Epstein from any federal charges. The agreement allowed Epstein to plead guilty to state charges involving one underage victim, gave him generous work release privileges while he served just over a year in prison. According to Blockbuster reporting from the Miami Herald's Julie K. Brown, in 2018 that helped lead to Epstein's 2019 federal indictment. Quote, acosta allowed Epstein's lawyers unusual freedoms in dictating the terms of the non prosecution agreement. As a result, neither the victims nor even the judge would know how many girls Epstein allegedly sexually abused between 2001 and 2005, when his underage sex activities were first uncovered by police. There are so many gaps that Acosta's testimony could fill in. For example, why was this sweetheart deal kept hidden from victims? But here's how Democrats on the committee described how Acosta's interview was going earlier today. He seems to be pretty dug in on the decisions that he made and unfortunately I heard things that disturbed me. Such as, well, back in 2006 it.
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Lisa Rubin
Was a different time and it seemed as if we were going back to a little bit of victim shaming, believing.
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Alicia Menendez
That, well, nobody's Going to believe these.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Girls or these women, essentially said he didn't have faith in the victims, their stories and their ability to tell their own story and their own testimony, which is deeply disturbing.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
One of the survivors that was there was very clear that she was abused and assaulted and raped by Jeffrey Epstein during his work release and during that time when he was out, during that 18 month period that was given to him by Mr. Acosta and his team. And yet Mr. Acosta stands by the deal.
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Alicia Menendez
As the Trump administration continues to struggle to quell the outrage over their handling of the Epstein files, Alex Acosta also emerged as a new figure for them, the fall guy. That's according to FBI Director Kash Patel. Patel testified to lawmakers that the, quote, original sin in the Epstein case, this was Acosta's 2008 deal. Here is what survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse had to say about that testimony. Quote, Director Patel testified that the original sin of the Epstein case was the unconscionable non prosecution deal the U.S. attorney Alex Acosta gave Epstein and the limited investigation Acosta conducted as head of the FBI. Director Patel can work now to remedy that in a way that finally centers survivor voices and finally pursues the whole truth. The public demands it, the victims deserve it, and our system of justice without fear or favor, requires it. Survivors are waiting. And that is where we start today with Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He is the ranking member of the Oversight Committee. Big day, Congressman, for the committee. What can you tell us about your interview with Alex Acosta?
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Congressman Robert Garcia
Yeah, thank you. Look, Democrats spent a few hours this morning interviewing Alex Acosta directly. In fact, our lawyers are still there right now finishing up this last round of testimony, gathering of information. And I will tell you that I have many more questions today than I even had yesterday. Let's review the facts. Mr. Acosta gave Jeffrey Epstein a sweetheart deal for 18 months where he had work release. And during that work release, Jeffrey Epstein goes on to continue to rape and abuse more women. Yet we also know that his line prosecutor, which he admitted to today in his testimony, had given the office and Mr. Acosta a much stronger set of prosecution. A case actually against Epstein that included the enormous amount of violence he had caused against women. And yet that case, those recommendations were ignored. I asked Mr. Acosta directly today if he stood by that decision to only give Jeffrey Epstein those 18 months, knowing that his line prosecutor, that she himself and the team, her team had requested and said that he should be prosecuted much, much more for his crimes. And he stood by that decision. And in addition to that, I think what people need to know right now is Mr. Acosta also is saying to us that he has no knowledge that somehow that other victims and other survivors were abused during that time, which is ridiculous considering that has been widely reported. And so this interview continues. We're going to have a lot more information in the days. But I'll tell you this. Donald Trump decided to make Mr. Acosta his cabinet secretary at the Department of Labor, knowing the immense harm that he had caused all these survivors.
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Alicia Menendez
Well, and Congressman, I mean, a through line here is the absolute disregard and lack of care for these survivors. A 2020 review from the DOJ's Office of Professional Responsibility found that Acosta, quote, exercised poor judgment when he failed to make certain that the intended to and would notify victims identified through the federal investigation about the state plea hearing. His decision let victims uninformed about an important proceeding that resolved the federal investigation. I wonder, did he give any more details about why he chose to keep the plea deal a secret from victims?
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Congressman Robert Garcia
Well, look, a piece of that. We're going to be releasing more information in the days ahead. What I will tell you is this, is that he is taking no responsibility for what actually happened here. He has completely stands by his decisions, completely stands by not listening to his lying prosecutor. But the question here is why? Why, when your lying prosecutor that is bringing you an 80 page indictment, 80 page indictment of all the crimes of the abuse of children, the abuse of women, why would the lead person at the U.S. attorney's office, having only a recommendation from your line attorney, why would he disregard that and instead not make those federal charges, but instead give him this sweetheart deal where he gets a work release and goes on to abuse other women. He today will stands by that, refuses to answer questions, is not answering direct questions about what he knew and who was talking to him before his confirmation process in the Trump administration. And so what this really opens up for us is it makes it clear that Alex Acosta is hiding something. We're going to get to the truth of this. We've got much more questions for him in the hours ahead. And what people need to know right now and what Alex Acosta needs to understand is we're going to get to the truth when this White House finally releases the Epstein files. We have a active subpoena right now and we don't understand why Pam Bondi and Donald Trump continue to refuse to release the files.
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Alicia Menendez
Well, let's add into that FBI Director Cash Patel, who seemed to use Alex Acosta as an excuse earlier this week as to why he couldn't release more of the Epstein files. Your Republican colleague, Congressman Thomas Massie revealed is in the FBI's possession. Take a listen.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
You also said somewhere in the hearing and here today that the problem is that the case files are constrained by limited search warrants from 2006 to 2007 and that the non prosecution agreement hamstrung future investigations. Those constraints only apply to Southern District of Florida. They do not apply to Southern District of New York. The location of the 2019 sex trafficking indictment, which produced many things, including a series of FD302 documents, according to victims who cooperated with the FBI in that investigation. These documents in FBI possession, your possession, detail at least 20 men.
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Alicia Menendez
You know anything, Congressman, about the identities of those 20 men?
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Congressman Robert Garcia
We are, we are gathering a lot of information. We have a lot of whistleblowers that are getting us information. And so obviously in the weeks ahead, we plan on getting more information out to the public. Though what's important in that, in that testimony there is, you have the FBI director right now doing everything he can to not release the files. When he spent his career as a podcaster before that, actually saying he wanted to release the files. You have the Attorney General who said before she was the AG that there should be transparency. All of these folks involved right now, Pam Bondi, Cash Patel, they have the full Epstein files. They know who these men are. They know how many times Trump's name is in the files. They know what Trump may or may not have done and what these powerful men have done and the harm they've caused to these women. But they refuse to tell the American public after Donald Trump campaigns on releasing the files. And so what I will say is this is the American public should know that on the Oversight Committee, we are working every single day and we're gathering more and more information. And I want to encourage folks, there have been many folks out there who have sent us information, victims who have contacted our whistleblower outreach system that we have, that we have set up. FBI agents, others continue to get us information because we are putting together this case and Donald Trump should know that we will not rest till we get the whole truth about what's actually in the Epstein files.
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Alicia Menendez
You, to that point, have been working hand in hand with the Epstein survivors. This is some of what they had to say about Kash Patel's testimony. Quote, we are shocked by the testimony of FBI Director Kash Patel before the United States Senate and the House Oversight Committee. Director Patel stated that in the FBI's Jeffrey Epstein case file. There is, quote, no credible information, none that he trafficked to other individuals. We are struggling to understand what this means. Even the limited information that has been made public includes accounts such as Virginia Giuffre's report that Epstein trafficked her to other individuals beside himself. Do you think that Kash Patel may have lied under oath?
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Congressman Robert Garcia
I think it's absolutely a possibility. In fact, I have a hard time after watching his testimony thinking about how he didn't lie under oath. I mean, it's very clear that Kash Patel has seen the files. It's very clear that he knows what's in them, along with Pam Bondi. And he even actually inferred in part of his testimony that somehow the FBI had released everything that they could. I mean, that is just a complete lie. They have sent us just a tiny bit of the available files that they have in their possession. They are under no type of court order to release these files and not release the files to us. And so FBI Director, the Attorney General, they should be releasing the files to Congress now, and they'll be complying with the actual subpoena. And so I think Cash Patel right now is in a lot of trouble. He seems to be not telling the truth under oath. He is lying to the survivors and the victims. I understand there's a lot of pressure within the FBI to push Patel out, and so it'll be very interesting to see how he navigates in the weeks ahead.
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Alicia Menendez
Okay. As if you were not busy enough, Congressman, you launched a probe yesterday into ABC's decision to take Jimmy Kimmel off there. Just given that you have been able to create bipartisan energy around the Epstein file release, do you think there are Republicans you can bring on board for this investigation?
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Congressman Robert Garcia
I do. In fact, just yesterday during a hearing, we were asking the Republicans to join us in bringing Chairman Carr, Brendan Carr, of course, who heads up the fcc, a Trump appointee, in front of us, in front of the Oversight Committee. We did get Chairman Comer to agree to bring Carr in front of the Oversight Committee. And so that's a commitment he made to me directly. I repeated that commitment to both the Republican and Democrats on the committee. And so we expect to hold him accountable to his word that Carr will be brought hopefully in front of our committee. And at the same time, what I've told Republicans is, look, they're the ones that are crying the First Amendment. They have talked about cancel culture. They've talked about the ability of people to have free speech in this country. And yet so many of them are the first in line to agree and support what's happening to Jimmy Kimmel. This is outrageous that a late night talk show host during a monologue where he was giving an opinion is somehow not going to be pulled off the air because Donald Trump didn't like what he said. This is a dangerous time in the United States. The Oversight Committee is going to be on this. We're investigating right now, abc. We're investigating what's happening at the fcc. And we're absolutely looking at Sinclair, who has a major role in what's happening right now. And with this firing, especially Congressman Robert.
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Alicia Menendez
Garcia on a very busy day for you on Capitol Hill. Thank you so much for starting us off. I want to bring into the conversation MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin and former New York Congressman Max Rose. Anything that you heard there surprise you.
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Lisa Rubin
First of all, I think we knew that there were whistleblowers who, for example, were talking to the Senate Judiciary Committee. But I think that Congressman Garcia just made some news in talking about multiple whistleblowers who are in communication with the House Oversight Committee, some of whom might be survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, but others of whom might come from law enforcement or have information from other sources. So that's one thing that surprised me. The other thing that I thought was really unfortunate is Alex Acosta's failure to take responsibility or to see events differently 17 years after he was the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida where he oversaw this investigation. And, and in particular, Alicia, there are a bunch of documents that Alex Acosta saw and or was involved in creating that could be released by the Department of Justice tomorrow. But also some of them might still be in Alex Acosta's own possession. I just want to detail three of them for you, please. There was a draft 60 count federal indictment drafted by a prosecutor named Anne Marie Vilafagna in 2007. It was drafted in May 2007 before they started negotiations about that non prosecution agreement. I am sure the Department of Justice has that. I am positive they can produce it in a redacted form that protects known and potential victims as well as third parties. But people deserve to see what was the legal theory of the case. How did they get to 60 charges against Jeffrey Epstein and yet let him plead to a single state count of solicitation of prosecution? Second document, the prosecution memo that Anne Marie Vilafagno wrote, it's a lengthy explanation, exploration of the evidence that she thought she could use at trial as well as the legal theories. And the third one, and this is the one I think Alex Acosta has himself is his own interview transcript from the Office of Professional Responsibility investigation that was conducted at DOJ in 2020. That was an investigation started at the instigation of Republican Senator Ben Sasse, who after the Miami Herald released its reporting, that three part reporting from Julie K. Brown in November of 2018, Ben Sasse wrote a letter to the Department of Justice and said, you need to look at whether there was professional misconduct by lawyers there. They did that. And as part of that investigation, all five of the lawyers who were being investigated sat for transcribed interviews under oath, same as a deposition. Alex Acosta was one of them. He must have that transcript. How do I know that? Because he and his lawyers were given an opportunity to review it and suggest any corrections that needed to be made as part of that OPR investigation. So members of House Oversight, if your interview is still going on and you have an opportunity, ask Alex Acosta where is the transcript of that 2020 interview. Because I guarantee you, from my experience as a lawyer, somebody's memories of something that happened 17 years ago were undeniably fresher five plus years ago when they were last interviewed.
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Alicia Menendez
An indisputable fact. This man, though, despite all this, despite the fact that he has inquiries on the part of Republican senators, goes on to become Donald Trump's, a member of Donald Trump's cabinet. What does that tell you?
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Right? It's funny how the world works. Look, normally when politicians or their representatives obfuscate or try to distract, it's because they're in a political pickle. They have some constituency that believes something or wants something, and they're getting all these other requests that are in conflict with that. That's not the case here. There's no political justification for what the Trump administration is doing in regards to the Epstein files. Which leads us to the only possible explanation, which is that the President of the United States is personally implicated in some way, shape or form with these Epstein files. Why else would they be doing this? Because this is not a political winner. But the other thing that's going on here is, look, Donald Trump has a PhD in changing the subject. And over the course since the Epstein files, this issue has kind of resurged. He has called for the impeachment of individual members of Congress. He has engaged in unlawful killings in Latin America. He has gone to every major sporting event humanly imaginable. He's put tariffs on everyone besides my mother. And nonetheless, the Epstein files are still top of the news. And that shows that this thing is not going anywhere. And is a political winner for the Democrats and they're going to stay on top of it.
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Alicia Menendez
Your mother doesn't drink Brazilian coffee. I bet you. I bet she's seen some of those tariffs. I want you just real quick to take a listen to something else that Thomas Massie had to say about those 20 men we referenced.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Keshe Patel has the names. He does. Yeah, but that was the whole point of my thing.
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Alicia Menendez
Right. How do you know for sure that.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
He has the names?
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Commercial Announcer
Because they're in 302s.
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Alicia Menendez
Gotcha.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
That FBI wrote down when they interviewed the. The victims.
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Alicia Menendez
Is there any concern that maybe just by reading out the descriptions without names that it could lead folks to, to wrongly accuse someone else of being that person?
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
These, these, this needs to get litigated at some point. Like the question is, so the FBI director said there was no credible evidence of anybody else doing these crimes. So my question to him is, do you not think the victims are credible? Isn't there, isn't this enough for probable cause? They have multiple witnesses or victims identifying the same people.
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Alicia Menendez
That's from MSNBC's congressional reporter, Michael Schnell. What did you make of that sound?
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Lisa Rubin
Well, I think Thomas Massie was trying to explain, Alicia, to Michael Schnell what it was that was animating his conversation with Kash Patel at yesterday's hearing because he was asking about those 302s. For the uninitiated, an FBI 302 is how the FBI memorializes an interview with a potential witness. We have seen scores of 302s, for example, in the Russia investigation and the Mueller investigation. Folks like Jason Leopold, who's now at Bloomberg, FOIA'd all sorts of 302s. And that is how many people put together the puzzle of what happened there. So the notion that a 302 is not something that can be produced by that's just false. In fact, there are 302s in the FBI's own publicly available FOIA vault documents available on its website. But I think that puts some more granularity on what he's talking about. Victims have told him that they gave interviews to the FBI in which they named names. They expect, based on the substance of those interviews, that they have been reduced to writing. And his expectation is that Cash Patel either has seen them or could have seen them. And in the event that he says that he's never seen them, it's also not tenable for him to say there is no credible information because he continued to maintain yesterday there is no additional credible information that I can give. And Massey pressed him on that. How do you know that? Have you seen these 302s? And finally, Patel was forced to admit, no, I haven't seen them. They were described to me or the evidence was described to me. How can you say that the victims didn't give you cause to do any further investigation if you didn't even read the document yourself? At the very least, they bear some inter those accusations bear some interrogation. It would have been far better for him to walk in the door and say, we've looked at that. And those allegations, while we trust the victims about their experiences, are not criminal for reasons X, Y and z. And yet he was unable to do that wholly and completely.
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Alicia Menendez
That level of clarity and granularity is why I'm always so grateful to have you at the table on these days. Lisa Rubin, thank you as always, Max, you are sticking with me. When we come back, the bully pulpit pressure which has sidelined Jimmy Kimmel is being used again with Donald Trump threatening more networks and late night hosts who give him, quote, bad publicity. Much more on that and how Jimmy Kimmel's fellow hosts are reacting to it all. Plus, the president set to fire another top prosecutor at the Justice Department because that attorney could not find a reason to charge yet another one of the president's perceived political enemies. And later in the show, more signs that Americans do not support Trump's campaign of mass deportations as ICE picks up democratically elected local officials doing oversight on the treatment of those detained. We get to all of that and more when Deadline White House continues after this.
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Commercial Announcer
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Ah, DSW Earth Place of the humble.
- [23:03]
Alicia Menendez
Brag here. The shoes are so good, no one.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Would ever know how little you paid.
- [23:08]
Alicia Menendez
If you didn't go telling everyone. Everyone that is. And with never ending options for every style, mood and occasion, all at really great prices, they'll definitely give you something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh sneakers from your favorite brands or try those boots you always secretly knew you could pull off. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW stores or@dsw.com Let us surprise you.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
MSNBC presents the Chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with Epstein survivor Jess Michaels.
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Alicia Menendez
I'm asking for every woman in the lives of the men that are making these decisions to please stand with us.
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Lisa Rubin
And speak up for us.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
The Best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
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Alicia Menendez
New questions, new concerns today having to do with what comes next as it relates to a sudden and escalating assault on the 1st am in this country for Air Force One. Yesterday Donald Trump was again asked about Disney's ABC's pulling Jimmy Kimmel late night show from the airwaves following applied from the FCC and its chairman Brendan Carr. Take a look.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Are you going to ask Brendan Carr.
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Lisa Rubin
To weigh in on other late night.
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Alicia Menendez
Hosts that you have?
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
You know when a late night host is on network television there is a licensing. I'll give you an example. I read someplace that the networks were 97% against me. I get 97% negative and yet I won and easily won all seven swing states popular. I won everything. And if they're 97% against, they give me only bad publicity or press. I mean they're getting a license. I would think maybe their license should be taken away. It will be up to Brendan Karp.
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Alicia Menendez
That suggestion that this might be the beginning, not the end of a broader crackdown on media provided fuel to Kimmel's contemporaries. Here is how Jon Stewart began his program last night.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
From Comedy Central. It's the all new government approved Daily Show. With your patriotically obedient host Jon Stewart.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
We have another fun, hilarious administration compliant show.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
What are you doing?
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Shut up. Blow this press. I don't know who this.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
Johnny Dremel Live ABC character is, but the point.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Is our great administration has laid out very clear rules on free speech. Now some naysayers may argue that this administration's speech concerns are merely a cynical ploy, a thin gruel of a ruse, a smokescreen to obscure an unprecedented consolidation of power and unitary intimidation principle less and coldly antithetical to any experiment in a constitutional republic governance.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
Some people would say that.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Not me. Though I think it's great.
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Alicia Menendez
That particular bit persisted across a number of the late night shows.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
Yeah, a lot of people are worried that we won't keep saying what we want to say or that we'll be censored. But I'm going to cover the President's trip to the UK just like I.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Normally would Here we go.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
Well, guys, President Trump just wrapped up his three day trip to the UK.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
And he looked incredibly handsome.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
As always.
- [27:24]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
His tie was exactly the right length.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
And his face looked like a color.
- [27:29]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
That exists in nature.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
While back here at home his administration is pursuing a crackdown on free speech.
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Tim Miller
And completely unrelated, I just want to say before we get started here that.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
I've always admired and respected Mr. Trump.
- [27:45]
Tim Miller
I've always believed he was.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
No, no, no. A visionary, an innovator, a great president. And even better, is free speech more.
- [27:53]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Under attack in Britain or America? How dare you, sir? How dare you, sir?
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Congressman Robert Garcia
What, what outfit are you with, sir?
- [28:15]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
The Antifa Herald Tribunal?
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Alicia Menendez
Joining us now, host of the Bulwark Podcast, MSNBC political analyst Tim Miller. Max is still with us. Tim, when you get Jon Stewart on a Thursday night, you know that it is big consequential news. But let's start with that sound of the President on Air Force One. I mean, there's no subtext. He is telling us what this is about. This is about the mysterious 97% of bad coverage.
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Tim Miller
Yeah. Who needs me on the show? Lisa, you could have just played the whole Daily show from last night.
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Alicia Menendez
I considered it, Tim. I considered it.
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Tim Miller
I'm gonna do my best to add to what those great comedians were doing. Look, it's a real threat and so it's a serious threat. But it's also a good sign that all those guys were out there last night mocking him. I think that's the right posture towards treating Donald Trump. It's the thing that he abides the least, getting mocked. And when it comes to these other threat about how he might come for the licenses and the networks, there was some suggestion by Brendan Carr, I think that the View or Saturday Night Live and some of these other late night shows might be next. Those are real scary threats. They aren't with precedent in our lifetimes, at least coming directly from the government. And I think that the problem that I see though is that, is that too many people are folding to the fear. They haven't actually done anything, right? I mean, they've made threats. That's bad, it's inappropriate. Some of they should be taking the court, right? But nobody's licenses are gonna be taken away. They weren't gonna. The Brendan Carr can't take Jimmy Kimmel off the air. Bob Iger took him off the air. And I think that if right now, I think that the right posture towards this administration's aspiring authoritarianism is to stand up to it, say no. Okay, do it. Let' Try me. And maybe Donald Trump calls the bluff. Maybe Donald Trump tacos. But I think the most concerning thing for me right now, and I'm extremely concerned about Donald Trump, but the most concerning thing is the response to him and how easily people are folding in the face of these threats. That might just be bluster. The guy tweets out all kinds of crazy stuff all the time. I don't know that people need to be quite so responsive to it.
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Alicia Menendez
I do want to talk about some of the pushback resistance we are seeing from some unlikely voices. But first, just a little bit more Stephen Colbert.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Listen up. In light of Jimmy Kimmel's suspension, ABC's parent company, the Walt Disney Corporation, has a little message for all the employees.
- [31:06]
Tim Miller
Shut your trap, shut your trap.
- [31:11]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
We're warning you to cutsy clap.
- [31:14]
Tim Miller
A dear leader's skin is thinner than a sheet of plastic wrap. Mom's the world, have you heard?
- [31:21]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Kissing us is what's preferred.
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Tim Miller
Don't insult a great dictator or he'll.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Hit you with this turd. The new rule at abc, don't make fun of Donny T. And don't point.
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Tim Miller
Out that he's naked.
- [31:34]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Mostly flu.
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Alicia Menendez
So don't you make a scene or.
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Tim Miller
Mention Jeff Epstein or your show will be scrapped.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Shut your trash. Shut up.
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Alicia Menendez
It is a reminder, Max Rose, that resistance takes many forms.
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Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Sure.
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Alicia Menendez
And I wonder if you see this as a form of bravery.
- [31:54]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Sure, it absolutely is. Maybe not the height of bravery, but it's certainly funny. But I do think we should go back to what the underlying allegation or point that Donald Trump and the rest of MAGA universe is making, which is that somehow the media and the Democratic Party have been unfair prejudice and engaging in hate speech in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's murder. So let's just go over what happened in those days thereafter after Charlie Kirk was murdered. J.D. vance, the Vice president, canceled his appearance at Ground zero in Manhattan on 911 to go pick up Charlie Kirk's casket on Air Force Two. The media said nothing. If a Democrat vice president had done that, had canceled at ground zero on 9 11, a massive show of disrespect to all those who made the ultimate sacrifice. So many years ago, the media on both sides of the aisle would have been irate. Donald Trump then announced that flags would be at half mast for nearly five days in respect of Charlie Kirk's legacy. Fallen soldiers who die in combat don't get anything close to that. The Pope did not get anything close to that. The media said nothing. Democrats said nothing. So really the only people right now who are showing a massive, in my mind act of insensitivity towards Charlie Kirk's legacy is the MAGA world is Donald Trump who basically are using his legacy and his voice and his death and his murder for political reasons and they will stop at nothing to make this a political issue irrespective of what the media does. Cuz Jimmy Kimmel didn't actually say anything that bad. If you go back to what he said, it certainly wasn't hate speech. So it's really, really sad the way that they are making this a political issue.
- [34:00]
Alicia Menendez
Max Rose, Tim Miller, I want you to both stick with me. When we come back, a sign today there is indeed a split in the GOP's emerging decisions over the party's view on free speech. We're going to show you that unexpected source where it is coming from now.
- [34:13]
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Alicia Menendez
Feel kind of giddy.
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Tim Miller
I want to be an astronaut, an.
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Artist, an actress to visit another country.
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Tim Miller
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Alicia Menendez
A way I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.
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- [35:32]
Alicia Menendez
The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.
- [35:36]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47.
- [35:45]
Alicia Menendez
This afternoon, Republican Senator Ted Cruz addressed the FCC's pressure to censor Jimmy Kimmel. It is likely going to surprise you, so take a listen.
- [35:54]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
I think it is unbelievably dangerous for government to put itself in the position of saying we're gonna decide what speech we like and what we don't and we're gonna threaten to take you off air if we don't like what you're saying. And it might feel good right now to threaten Jimmy Kimmel.
- [36:12]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [36:13]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
But when it is used to silence every conservative in America, we will regret it. And so, again, I like Brennan Carr, but we should not be in this business. We should denounce it. It's fine to say what Jimmy Kimmel said was deplorable. It was disgraceful, and he should be off air. But we shouldn't be threatening government power to force him off air. That's a real mistake.
- [36:37]
Alicia Menendez
And we are back with Tim and with Max. Tim, your response to what we just heard from the senator.
- [36:42]
Tim Miller
Well, should we start with the good or the bad? We'll start with the bad and then we can compliment him on the backside. He didn't mention Donald Trump. None of these guys ever mentioned Donald Trump. And we've had the spate of courage from people on the right. We should say not just Cruz, but a bunch of the right wing commentators spoke out against Pam Bondi last week when she said that the Department of Justice was gonna go after hate speech in the wake of Kirk's death. I think that obviously there's some conservatives for whom their obsession over free speech. Obsession is probably the wrong word. There's some conservatives for whom their use of arguing for free speech was maybe more of a political power play in retrospect, and they don't really care that much about it. But there are some conservatives who genuinely care about free speech and they've gone after Pam Bondi. And now we've seen Ted Cruz rightly go after Brendan Carr. They always seem to, though, not mention Donald Trump's name. And Donald Trump has not only agreed with Carr, but said he should go further. And not only agreed with Bondi, but said she should go further. So I would need a little bit more from Ted Cruz to give him full kudos, to give him a standing ovation, but we'll give him one clap for that. And I'm happy that he's out there.
- [37:50]
Alicia Menendez
Saying, you're giving the Nancy Pelosi State of the Union clap for that one.
- [37:55]
Tim Miller
A snap, maybe. A snap.
- [37:56]
Alicia Menendez
To your point, he is not the only Republican who's been talking about this. Let's take a listen to what other Republicans have had to say.
- [38:06]
Tim Miller
Yeah, people are getting fired.
- [38:07]
Congressman Robert Garcia
Free speech doesn't mean you don't have.
- [38:09]
Mark Elias
Consequences for your speech.
- [38:10]
Tim Miller
Like free speech means the government shouldn't fully step in and say, hey, you can't do this.
- [38:15]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Right, but.
- [38:17]
Mark Elias
And again, licensing is a different question.
- [38:19]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Do you think comments from the FCC have in any way chilled freedom of speech? This isn't to take Jimmy Kimmel off air.
- [38:25]
Mark Elias
I think Jimmy Kimmel was taken off.
- [38:27]
Tim Miller
Air because he's a unfunny activist.
- [38:29]
Congressman Robert Garcia
Do I think it's good that Disney yanked a show?
- [38:31]
Alicia Menendez
Yeah, I do, actually.
- [38:32]
Congressman Robert Garcia
That was their choice.
- [38:33]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
But using the power of the government.
- [38:35]
Congressman Robert Garcia
To regulate speech, I mean, you guys were concerned about Biden doing things like this, but this is even further. Well, wait, this isn't the government mono. This is.
- [38:44]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
This is Disney.
- [38:46]
Alicia Menendez
Okay, I just want to follow their logic for a second because it's not like he. Let's say he was unfunny, right? It's not that he turned unfunny on the same day that the FCC chair just happens to say, we can do this the easy way or the hard way, and the next star changes their mind.
- [39:02]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
Oh, they are so desperate for the subject to change here because this tap dancing is really obvious. But what's also obvious is just the dramatic about shift they have made about cancel culture. I mean, these were the folks that were saying in an election less than a year ago that the other side are snowflakes. The other side will want to cancel everything you're saying. All this woke stuff, one could actually argue, was a relatively significant issue in the last election. And now just because Donald Trump has said something. They haven't read one poll that shows this Jimmy Kimmel issue is a good one for them. In fact, it's obviously massively unpopular. But just because Donald Trump said something, they are all falling in line and falling on their sword. So it's yet another indication that they will even commit political suicide just in strict subservience to him as fully owned subsidiaries of Donald Trump and Maga Incorporated.
- [40:03]
Alicia Menendez
Tim Miller, I've only got about 30 seconds left, but I do wonder if you think this is breaking through with folks who might not watch, you know, politics as closely as you and I do.
- [40:13]
Tim Miller
I do think so. I think that, you know, obviously there are some MAGA folks who are disingenuous about their concerns about free speech, but I think that there were Trump voters, you know, particularly, you know, kind of people in the comedy space and the manosphere space and the podcast space. Free speech is their business, you know, and I think that it's kind of an American thing that is bipartisan, the belief that in this country we can say what we want, we can make fun of our leaders. This isn't China. It's part of American pride that a lot of people feel. And so I do think this is breaking through. And I think that there are parts of Trump's coalition, maybe not in Washington, but out in the country, that are upset about this. And I think we've seen some of this. If you watch kind of the barstool sports podcasts or some of the other comedian podcasts that are out there, I.
- [40:54]
Alicia Menendez
Will say anecdotally, there are definitely parents at the bus stop who I ordinarily do not see talking politics who were like, whoa, we're at a different moment now. Tim Miller, Max Rose, thank you both so much for joining us today. Just ahead, another swift and quick legal defeat for Donald Trump. That story when we return. This afternoon, a federal judge in Florida issued a rebuke of Donald Trump in one of his latest attempts to crack down on the free press. A judge throwing out the president's defamation suit against the New York Times, calling the complaint improper and impermissible in its current form. The lawsuit, which asked for $15 billion in damages, accused the Times and four of its reporters, as well as the book publisher Penguin Random House, of disparaging Trump's reputation as a successful businessman. The judge called the suit unnecessarily lengthy and aggressive. He criticized Trump's lawyers for waiting until the 80th page to Lodge a formal allegation of defamation and for including ahead of it dozens of florid and envious enervating pages lavishing praise on the president and enumerating a range of grievances. Joining me now, voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy docket, Mark Elias. Mark, I want both your reaction to the initial lawsuit that was filed by Donald Trump and now to the judge's dismissal today.
- [42:12]
Mark Elias
So they're very much connected, right? I mean, the initial lawsuit was a press release put on a caption signed by a lawyer. And that is what the judge saw it for. The New York Times did nothing to warrant a defamation lawsuit. This was a lawsuit that was frivolous from the get go. And it was drafted in a way that, frankly, you know, is difficult to imagine was drafted by lawyers. And that was the basis for the judge doing something today that is extremely unusual. I mean, you know, usually if you file a lawsuit, you wait for the other side to say all the things that are wrong with it and why the case should be dismissed. Here the judge, before even hearing from the other side, read the lawsuit and said this simply violates the most simple rules about how one files a complaint. The initial filing, it is Supposed to be a short, concise statement of the facts and the law and the claim for relief. And as you pointed out, this case, this pleading went on for paragraphs and pages and pages before it even got to any allegations. And so the judge struck it and gave them a few weeks to file a new pleading and put them under a 40 page limit, which is also pretty extraordinary.
- [43:22]
Alicia Menendez
This is some more of what the judge wrote in his dismissal. Quote, a complaint is not a public forum for vituperation and invective, Judge Merry Day wrote. Not a protected platform to rage against an adversary. It seemed to me that a lot of what the judge saying was, marcus, are you actually filing a legal document here? Are you trying to win this in the court of public opinion? And I wonder through that lens, Mark, just how damaging a lawsuit like this is in terms of time and money spent in terms of reputational damage, even if you have a judge quickly dismissing it.
- [43:57]
Mark Elias
Yeah, look, I mean, I can speak from personal experience. Donald Trump sued me and a bunch of other people for racketeering in Florida in 2022. And in that case, the judge dismissed the lawsuit. By the way. I did not settle. I did not seek to settle. I did not compromise. We just like litigated and, and we won. Donald Trump is now appealing that to the 11th Court of Appeals, but the judge threw that lawsuit out because it was under a different rule, but essentially a similar principle. This was a, this was a whole lot of, of Donald Trump venting through a lawyer, putting their name on it. And, you know, it is time consuming, it is expensive, it is burdensome. It is, you know, even when you know you're in, it is, you lose a certain amount of sleep over it. Right. Because here it is, the guy who is the president. United States is suing you. And so, you know, we shouldn't take these things lightly, even when they are frivolous or perhaps especially when they're frivolous, because we have seen him weaponize this against his political opponents and to extract settlements in cases that are completely nonsensical and good for the judge here in preventing at least some of those costs and burdens from being borne.
- [45:11]
Alicia Menendez
Okay, Mark, you're going to be with me in the next hour because as our friend Nicole Wallace likes to say, this is like Hotel California. You can check out, but you can never leave. When we come back, Health Secretary RFK Jr. S hand picked vaccine advisory committee, known vaccine skeptics. They are meeting today deciding who can get critical vaccines and when going to bring you the very latest next.
- [45:35]
Lisa Rubin
Just.
- [45:35]
Alicia Menendez
Last hour, the closely watched CDC advisory panel voted to weaken its COVID vaccine recommendations, calling it an individual decision. That vote adding to concern about the chaos at HHS and the motives of panelists handpicked by Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Earlier today, the group postponed a vote on limiting the use of the hepatitis B vaccine for newborns because, the Times reports, quote, the panelists said they felt unready to decide. They also recommended against giving children under age 4 the combination vaccine for measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox. And then today, the panel took back its own vote allowing a federal program to cover that vaccine because, according to the New York Times, apparently some members had misunderstood the way it was worded. Just ahead, another U.S. attorney on the brink of losing his job for not bringing charges against another perceived political enemy, Donald Trump. The next hour of deadline White House starts right after this quick break.
- [46:38]
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- [46:46]
Tim Miller
I need a coffee.
- [46:47]
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