“A plus”

Summary

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Deadline: White House – “A Plus”

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC NOW
Date: December 9, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace dissects the state of American democracy amid growing unease with the Trump administration’s actions at home and abroad. The hour centers on controversy over a concealed military strike video, the administration’s evolving and controversial foreign policy in Venezuela and Ukraine, public dissatisfaction with Trump’s handling of the economy, and the rapidly consolidating, increasingly politicized media landscape. Wallace is joined by Senator Chris Coons, journalist Anne Applebaum, media analyst Oliver Darcy, and others, providing bipartisan analysis and urgent commentary.

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Secrecy in U.S. Military Operations: The Venezuela Strike Video

[00:50–12:07]

Key Points

• Bipartisan Outrage Over Concealed Video: Lawmakers from both parties are frustrated that a second strike video, depicting what some describe as a possible war crime against shipwrecked sailors, remains classified. Democrats and some Republicans are now advocating for its release.

  • “It is imperative that we be given a chance to see all of the videos...The provision in the NDAA that takes away Hegseth’s travel money...is a pretty good sign that Republicans share our disgust and impatience.” – Democratic Politician/Commentator [00:50]

• Senator Chris Coons’ Eyewitness Account: Coons, having viewed the video, unequivocally states that the victims were clearly shipwrecked and defenseless, raising grave concerns about the administration's legal rationale and true objectives.

  • “You see the strike that kills two individuals standing on top of a floating piece of wreckage, waving...The larger frame here...is whether this entire undertaking is a good use of...our special forces.” – Sen. Chris Coons [04:23]
  • Coons suspects the escalation is aimed more at regime change in Venezuela and access to resources, rather than drug interdiction.

• Legal and Strategic Consequences

  • Repeatedly, the Law of War manual is cited regarding protections for shipwrecked persons. Coons notes the administration is applying counterterrorism legal logic, originally intended for imminent threats, to questionable anti-drug operations.
  • “If there’s any chance at all that the floating wreck might contain cocaine...that justifies lethal action against them. I frankly think most Americans wouldn’t support this level of violence.” – Sen. Chris Coons [07:00]

• Impact on International Relations

  • U.S. credibility is damaged; the British have ceased intelligence cooperation over the incident.
  • “We’re risking separating us from our partners and allies.” – Sen. Chris Coons [04:51]

• Opaque Motives and Inconsistent Answers

  • Coons calls responses from the Trump administration “unsatisfying, incomplete, or ‘We’ll get back to you.’” [08:35]
  • No clear rationale is provided for targeting distant vessels or for the focus on cocaine, not fentanyl.

Notable Quotes

"I'm afraid that Secretary Hegseth and President Trump are sleepwalking us into a war with Venezuela." — Sen. Chris Coons [05:15]

“If interdicting drugs...is really the point...why did President Trump pardon...the former president of Honduras convicted...of trafficking hundreds of tons of cocaine?” — Sen. Chris Coons [08:03]

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GOP Anxiety and Muted Public Dissent

[10:50–12:07]

Key Points

• Republican Private Concerns
  • Growing alarm, especially about the Venezuela strike, Trump's softening on Ukraine, and his willingness to allow tech exports to China—but Republicans are not yet speaking out publicly.
  • “That’s got a lot of my Republican colleagues concerned, but not in ways they’re talking about publicly, at least not yet.” – Sen. Chris Coons [11:47]

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Global Perspective on Trump’s Foreign Policy & Leadership Style

[12:32–17:53]

Key Points

• Anne Applebaum on Trump’s Ukraine Policy

  • Trump’s calls for Ukraine to cede territory—without security guarantees—defy long-held bipartisan positions and undermine U.S. credibility.
  • “Trump seems now to be saying that Ukraine should not just recognize de facto Russian occupation...but give up territory...in exchange for nothing.” – Anne Applebaum [12:50]

• Erosion of U.S. Military and Diplomatic Reputation

  • Absence of respected military leaders replaced by aggressively hawkish appointees like Pete Hegseth, who downplays war crimes and sees legal protections as obstacles.
  • “He’s now surrounded by people who are determined to undermine the reputation of the United States...whereas we were once reliable...now we’re completely unreliable.” – Anne Applebaum [15:12]

• Unpredictability and Instability

  • Trump’s erratic, self-interested leadership generates international apprehension and planning paralysis.
  • “Everyone...has to be braced for...some erratic decision, for a rapid change, for a complete policy reversal that can come at any moment.” – Anne Applebaum [17:08]

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Reality vs. Rhetoric: Trump’s Handling of the Economy

[19:30–27:08]

Key Points

• Trump’s Economic Self-Assessment vs. Voter Reality

  • Trump claims the economy deserves an “A plus plus plus plus plus.” [20:24]
  • Polls tell a different story: nearly half of Americans—and over a third of recent Trump voters—say cost of living is the worst ever, and most blame Trump. [20:29]

• Expert Analysis

  • Steph Rule: Trump's boasts are untethered from on-the-ground reality. Recent tariff wars and subsequent stimulus to farmers underline policy failures.
    • “You can BS people on a lot of things...you cannot BS my mother...when it comes to the economy.” [21:30]
  • Sam Stein: Detachment from reality is political suicide; voters perceive Trump’s wealth as increasingly isolated from their struggles.
    • “If you say everything’s getting better...and the voters don’t feel it...they’re gonna say not is he making things actually worse...but he’s totally detached.” – Sam Stein [23:51]

• Wealth and Corruption

  • Guests highlight ostentatious displays (e.g., Mar-a-Lago parties) and Trump family business dealings as “stratospherically different” grifting that lands with voters as disconnected and corrupt.
  • “He was able to make his ostentatious gold toilet wealth feel contagious. That part...is over.” – Nicole Wallace [25:27]

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Authoritarian Media Takeovers: The Paramount–Warner–Netflix Saga

[27:43–40:47]

Key Points

• Media Consolidation under Political Influence

  • Trump and his allies, particularly Larry and David Ellison, are steering hostile takeover attempts of major media properties, with the fate of CNN a central focus.
  • “Donald Trump has inserted himself into this process, which is sort of unprecedented...media moguls basically have to grovel before the president to get a deal done.” – Oliver Darcy [30:09, 31:38]

• Regulatory Leverage

  • Trump makes public his preference for which media deals succeed, with approval linked to favorable coverage or changes (e.g., intent to “fix” CNN). The DOJ’s blessing becomes political currency.

• Foreign Investment Concerns

  • Deals involve $20+ billion financing, with heavy investment from Jared Kushner and Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds, raising alarms about foreign control over U.S. media.
  • “The idea that [the Saudis] would be a part-time owner or part owner of CNN is astonishing.” – Oliver Darcy [34:33]

• Brand Risk and Consumer Response

  • Companies risk alienating audiences, but analysts doubt wide-scale consumer revolt as loyalty and platform confusion run deep.
  • “If you think that the American people are gonna stand up and say, hell no, we won't go. They won’t.” – Steph Rule [39:40]
  • Oliver Darcy raises the difficulty: “If you want to vote with your dollars, where do you send your dollars?” [40:04]

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Rachel Maddow Weighs In

[41:36–42:51]

Key Points

• Media Decisions and Historical Judgment
  • Maddow calls recent media moves to appease Trump “a huge embarrassment,” referencing the planned cancellation of Stephen Colbert and the chilling effect of Trump’s low polling and alleged war crimes.
  • “Maybe don’t do that. Maybe you can now see where in history you’re going to end up, and now’s your chance to try to alter that.” – Rachel Maddow [42:18]

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Notable Quotes

• “It certainly seemed that way to me...two individuals standing on top of a floating piece of wreckage, waving at something, presumably the plane that is closing in on them to kill them.”
  — Sen. Chris Coons [04:23]

• “Trump is surrounded by people who are determined to undermine the reputation of the United States...now we’re seen as a kind of rogue army.”
  — Anne Applebaum [15:12]

• “You cannot BS my mother or your mother or any person on the street when it comes to the economy.”
  — Steph Rule [21:30]

• “Detachment from reality is political suicide.”
  — Sam Stein [23:51]

• “They dangle Brendan Carr, the FCC chair out there...you have to aggressively curry favors with him or get on his right side if you want to get what you want.”
  — Ms. Now contributor [32:18]

• “If you care about democracy, do you want CNN falling into the hands of a pro-Trump force?”
  — Oliver Darcy [33:29]

• “That type of behavior on steroids, on top of steroids.”
  — Ms. Now contributor [40:44]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Controversy over Military Strike Video – [00:50–12:07]
• GOP Concerns and Private Dissent – [10:50–12:07]
• Global Reactions to Trump’s Foreign Policy – [12:32–17:53]
• Trump’s Economic Reality vs. Rhetoric – [19:30–27:08]
• Media Merger Politics and Risks – [27:43–40:47]
• Rachel Maddow’s Perspective – [41:36–42:51]

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Tone & Language

The episode is urgent, sharply critical, with moments of irony and candid exasperation. Wallace and her guests speak directly and vividly; analysis is grounded in real events but colored by a clear defense of democratic norms and sober alarm at their erosion.

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Conclusion

This edition of Deadline: White House amplifies bipartisan congressional angst over secrecy and legality in U.S. military actions, exposes the economic pain and anger among Trump’s base, and scrutinizes the unprecedented entanglement of the Trump administration with the nation's major media outlets. The primary concern: transparency, accountability, and the future of American democracy in the face of politicized violence and media consolidation.

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Transcript

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[Democratic Politician or Commentator]

Whether we view it tomorrow or at some other point, it is imperative that we be given a chance to see all all of the videos, including September 2nd. But more important, the American people need and deserve to see those videos. The provision in the NDAA that takes away Hegset's travel money, at least in part, is a very good sign that Republicans are becoming as disgusted and outraged as Democrats by this continuing cover up and concealment. It's only a shot across the bow. It's symbolic more than real. But it is a pretty good sign that Republicans share our disgust and impatience.

[Nicole Wallace]

That in and of itself is a seismic shift in our politics. Hi again Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. Is there anything more quintessentially Trumpian than the old over promise under deliver trick? More specifically, when Trump makes a big show of his wish or desire to share some information with the public in the name of transparency, say on his tax returns or medical records or the Epstein files before then retreating from that position and saying fake news? I never said that. That's precisely what's happening here. That's the sort of situation we are covering and monitoring this afternoon on Capitol Hill where a number of Trump officials, including Defense Secretary Pete Teg says have been engaged in meetings with lawmakers on one topic in particular, a video from September still under seal of that follow up strike on suspected drug traffickers in the Caribbean. We understand the so called Gang of Eight just wrapped up their briefing. Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said, quote, we did not get satisfying answers at all, end quote. Remember last week Trump said he would have, quote, no problem showing the American public a recording of what may or may not have been a war crime at sea in that second strike. But now it appears that video, seen only by military personnel and some lawmakers at this point will remain secret unless something shifts. That something is the will of Congress leaders in the House and Senate from both political parties notably, want to look at that recording, one Trump says is entirely in the hands of Pete Hegseth, who's been almost giddy about sharing edited versions of the videos of other boat strikes, including the first strike on the same date, just not the second one. New York Times reports this, quote, the annual defense policy bill on track to clear Congress in the coming days would compel the Pentagon to provide lawmakers with the specific orders behind the strikes that the US Military is taking on boats in international waters, as well as with unedited video of the attacks. The inclusion of the provisions tucked into must pass legislation that sets defense policy and provides a pay raise for US Troops signals bipartisan frustration on Capitol Hill that members of Congress are being kept in the dark about crucial aspects of the operation. That is where we start the hour with Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware. He's a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He received a closed door briefing with Admiral Bradley on the September 2nd strikes. Senator, thank you for being here.

[Senator Chris Coons]

Thank you, Nicole. It's always great to be on with you.

[Nicole Wallace]

So you have seen the second strike on the shipwreck sailors in the Caribbean from September 2nd, is that right?

[Senator Chris Coons]

Yes.

[Nicole Wallace]

Can you describe it to us?

[Senator Chris Coons]

Well, frankly, part of why I support releasing this video is that I think all Americans should see this so that they understand the policy choices that are being made by President Trump and Secretary Hegseth. You see the strike that kills two individuals standing on top of a floating piece of wreckage, waving at something, presumably the plane that is closing in on them to kill them. And the larger frame here that matters is whether this entire undertaking is a good use of the exquisite and expensive resources of our special forces. Whether these drugs were on their way to the United States at all. There's been no proof of that. And whether this is the most effective way to actually interrupt the cartels that are poisoning Americans with drugs. Of course, I support interdicting drugs on their way to the United States, but the way this is being done risks separating us from our partners and allies. The British have stopped sharing intelligence with us and risks undermining the credibility of our work around the world to promote American security. I'm afraid that Secretary Hegseth and President Trump are sleepwalking us into a war with Venezuela. And that regime change and access to the critical mineral resources and oil and gas of Venezuela is the real purpose and real goal here. But we don't know because most of Congress hasn't been briefed at all.

[Nicole Wallace]

When this story broke, when it burst into public view in the Washington Post report about the vessel being on fire from bow to stern about two shipwrecked people. Many of the military experts that have been on this program pointed us and our viewers to the Law of War manual, which has as its specific example of the line in the Law of War manual being shipwrecked people. Is there anything in the video.

That makes that not any less stark? I mean, these seem like from Democrats and Republicans who've seen the video, say, for Tom Cotton, shipwrecked people.

[Senator Chris Coons]

It certainly seemed that way to me. But, Nicole, what matters here is less what you see in the video than the analysis, the assumptions. And that's all rooted in the policy decisions made to equate trafficking cocaine with attacking America. I understand how the legal framework that was put in place to strike Al Qaeda operatives carrying explosives in Afghanistan who were threatening to attack and kill American troops, I get how that worked. But that same framework and analysis is being applied here, such that if there's any chance at all that the floating wreck might contain cocaine and might make it back to Venezuela and these two individuals might be able to rejoin the fight, that that justifies lethal action against them. And I frankly think most Americans wouldn't support this level of violence against the open ocean equivalent of of two kids standing on a street corner selling drugs rather than going after their bosses in the cartels. If interdicting drugs being trafficked to America is really the point of all this, then why did President Trump pardon last week the former president of Honduras convicted in an American court of trafficking hundreds of tons of cocaine to. To the United States? That raises the question, what's the real goal of all this anyway? Is it protecting America from drugs, something we all support, or is it overthrowing a regime in Venezuela, something we should have much clearer plans for, what comes next and why we would take on those risks.

[Nicole Wallace]

Have you had a chance to pose that question to any members of the Trump administration?

[Senator Chris Coons]

Yes.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is their answer?

[Senator Chris Coons]

Unsatisfying, incomplete, or. We'll get back to you.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is there any explanation of why they're going for the cocaine coming on boats? Maybe. Maybe not coming to America and not the fentanyl from China and Mexico?

[Senator Chris Coons]

No. Look, there is strong and good work being done in partnership with Mexico, as there was under the previous administration. And there's strong and good work being done to try and persuade China to reduce the amount of fentanyl that they're producing in precursors and sending to the United States this is a bipartisan effort that's gone on for years. But any explanation as to why a boat 1,000 miles from the United States, rounding Trinidad and likely headed towards Europe, is a legitimate military target? That's not something we've received in enough detail to persuade me and many of my colleagues.

[Nicole Wallace]

Are you aware of many drug shipments that have lots of drugs and 11 people on the boat? Is that a common way of trafficking lots of a large amount of drugs?

[Senator Chris Coons]

Nicole? I don't know that level of detail. It did seem odd to me that this relatively small boat needed 11 people on it. And so that may be buried in operational details about what they were planning to do after they rendezvoused with some other boat. But it does seem like a lot of people relative to the size of the boat and the amount of its cargo. Our larger point, rather than getting into the minutiae of this exact incident, is where are we headed and why is Donald Trump taking us there? I'll remind you, he ran on I will lower your costs. I'll make America healthy again. And no stupid foreign wars. He's failed at lowering costs. The costs of health care and housing are going up. He's failing at making America healthy again. We're going to cast a vote here this week on whether or not millions of Americans will no longer be able to afford health care. And now it seems he's failing at the third sleepwalking us into a war with Venezuela.

[Nicole Wallace]

Just real quickly, my last question is about the Republican response. The bar is so very low, but they do seem to be, with a couple of exceptions, almost as concerned as Democrats. What are the private conversations like among your Republican colleagues?

[Senator Chris Coons]

Nicole, there's three different things that Republicans have shared with me this week they are alarmed about. One is, of course, this episode and the justification and the video. Another is the statements Trump is now making about Ukraine, suggesting that he's going to abandon Ukraine to Russia and knuckle under to Putin's aggression. And the third is Trump's decision to allow advanced AI chips to be sold to China. He's just released a national security strategy that fails to say that Russia is an aggressor, fails to say that China is our leading threat to our way of life in the world, and fails to support our European and Indo Pacific partners and allies who are joining with us in this work against the aggression of Russia and China. That's got a lot of my Republican colleagues concerned, but not in ways they're talking about publicly, at least not yet.

[Nicole Wallace]

Maybe they're waiting for him to go down to 26 in the polls. Senator Chris Coons, thank you for your time and your candor. We appreciate you. I want to bring in doctor coverage staff writer for the Atlantic, author of Autocracy Inc. And Applebaum, interesting that the second thing he points out is there growing discomfort with Trump's direction on Ukraine. I'm sure the Ukrainians would appreciate public, not private hand wringing.

[Anne Applebaum]

They certainly would.

The dramatic shift in Trump's rhetoric, I mean, it goes back and forth, but it's been lately been going in one direction on Ukraine goes directly in contradiction to what many Republican leaders have been saying for years.

Trump seems now to be saying that Ukraine should not just recognize de facto Russian occupation of territory, but that Ukraine should give up territory that the Russians haven't conquered and that it should do so. So in exchange for nothing, in exchange for no security guarantees, all of which would lead Ukrainians believe to another war. So Ukraine would end the war, but in a way that it wouldn't be able to defend itself. Ukraine would be very difficult to invest in and rebuild because who would invest and rebuild a country that's going to be invaded again? And it's almost as if Trump doesn't want to hear this or doesn't understand it or has got bored of it. And he seems to have sent his son in law and his one of his former business partners to do this negotiation and their primary interest is deals with Russia. So that runs very against the grain of what a lot of Republican leaders and especially leaders in the Senate have been saying they believe American foreign policy should be for many years.

[Nicole Wallace]

Anne, I keep thinking about the.

Impact around the world of sort of the negative space that's created by the absence of men like Mattis, Esper, Millie, Kelly around Trump, that there's no one with established morality or knowledge steering Trump's use of the military. How is that being received around the world?

[Anne Applebaum]

I mean, it's not just an absence of his previous colleagues. It's also the presence of people who are using aggressive, irresponsible language. So it's not just that Pete Hexseth isn't Jim Mattis. He's also somebody who seems to be in favor of war crimes. And a lot of the language that he uses is directly saying we need to get rid of these rules on American soldiers that are somehow preventing them from being effective. I mean, those are the rules that the United States wrote in order to ensure that our military remained an honorable institution, that it wasn't.

Creating excess damage or creating excess trauma or Tragedy. And the American military is proud of those things. This is what, one of the things that it was very happy to stand for. And it was one of the things that was admired by our allies. And so, you know, it's almost as if he's now surrounded by people who are determined to undermine the reputation of the United States in many different areas. You know, whereas we were once a reliable and predictable partner, now we're completely unreliable and unpredictable. You know, whereas we had a military that was seen as, you know, law abiding.

You know, at the very least, you know, now we, now we're seen as a kind of rogue army, you know, targeting boats in waters far away from us for reasons that are unclear. All of these things undermine our ability to have allies, to have a strategic policy, to work together with other countries.

And it almost seems as if, you know, Trump is surrounded by people who don't think strategically at all. They don't think in the long term, they don't think about the broader consequences of what they're doing.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, here Saturday Night Live is one of our cultural touchstones, cultural reference points. And SNL has spoofed Trump as sort of falling asleep and incapable of staying awake. And the opening skit this week was about carting him off for another mri. There's a very public reversal on Trump's part on releasing the video of the second strike, where his first public comments about it were that, one, if that happened, I wouldn't like it talking about the Restrike or the second strike on the surviving sailors. And two, he said, I would have no problem with releasing the tape. Yesterday, confronted with the same question and asked if he stood by those first two answers, he smeared the female journalist with misogynistic attacks. I wonder what the international or the European assessment is of sort of the erratic public posture of Donald Trump himself.

[Anne Applebaum]

I mean, the Europeans see the same thing that we see. They see somebody whose views change from day to day and whose primary interest always seems to be winning in any given circumstance. So if he's talking to a journalist, he has to emerge the victor. You know, if he's, if he's on a stage somewhere, he has to say how great he is and how bad.

And he's interested in himself and in his idea of winning the moment. And he's not very interested, as I said, in any kind of strategic thinking, any kind of long term policy. And that means that everybody around the world, world has to be braced for, you know, for some erratic decision, for a rapid change, for a complete policy reversal that can come at any moment. And it's going to make it very hard for everybody else to plan to include the United States to develop a kind of stable and serious way of talking to Americans.

[Nicole Wallace]

Just remarkable. And Applebaum, thank you for joining us on these big news days. We appreciate you.

When we come back, Donald Trump thinks he's doing a bang up job in the economy. At least we think he thinks that. It's an issue the American people are giving him increasingly low marks for and all the available public polling. It comes amid a cost of living crisis. Many of his own voters say it is the worst it has ever been for them. Why he continues to ignore his own voters and the concerns of the American people and why doing so comes at his own political peril. That's our next story. Also ahead, how one of Trump's biggest and richest political allies is mounting a hostile takeover for one of America's most storied media companies. The changes he's promising to make to appease Trump and the role the White House is playing in all of this later in the hour. Plus by one of Trump's most prominent critics in the world of late night TV has reason to celebrate today. Deadline White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Jen Psaki]

Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive Caucus Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Season 2 all episodes available now.

[Nicole Wallace]

As the holidays approach, families all across the country are gathering to watch a holiday classic, A Christmas Story, which is about a little boy who just wants a Red Rider BB gun for Christmas. Little Ralphie dreams of winning over his teacher with an essay about why he has to have his number one present.

Poetry here. Poetry.

This holiday season, another little fella is also dreaming big. Take a watch.

I do want to talk about the economy, sir, here at home.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

And I wonder what grade you would give the economy.

[Nicole Wallace]

A. Yeah.

[Anne Applebaum]

A plus plus plus plus plus.

[Nicole Wallace]

Unfortunately for Donald Trump, if you ask actual voters, even his that appears to be just as much of a fantasy and a fiction as Little Ralphie's dream. Polling by Politico found that, quote, almost half, 46% of all Americans say the cost of living in the United States is the worst they can ever remember it being a view held by 37% of people who voted for Donald Trump in 2024, 12 months ago. Americans also say that the affordability crisis is Donald Trump's responsibility, with 46% of all Americans saying it is Donald Trump's economy now and Trump's administration is responsible for the costs they struggle with. I want to bring in the managing editor of the Bulwark, Ms. Now contributor Sam Stein. And with me at the table, my friend and colleague, host of the eleventh Hour, and senior business analyst Steph Rule. Steph, what is it that Trump is missing? I mean, what piece of this must he be looking at to say a plus plus plus plus plus plus plus.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

It doesn't matter what he's looking at. Right. Fake it till you make it has been extraordinary for him throughout his life, and he's hoping it will be now. The thing is, you can BS people, right? If you're a salesman, if you're a showman, you can BS people on a lot of things that they don't see and feel and touch every day. You cannot BS my mother or your mother or any person on the street when it comes to the economy. And while we do have a good economy compared to other countries, the struggles that we are facing are in large parts due to Donald Trump's tariff war. Look no further than 24 hours ago, right? $12 billion to farmers. Why? Because soybean farmers are getting crushed because of the trade war you had the agriculture secretary say. And we're putting together this $12 billion package thanks to the tariffs. Let me edit that for you. Because of the tariffs, we have to have this package so the administration could be making moves to improve things. But to say he's done an A job and this is the age of the economy, that's just factually incorrect.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sam. There's an interesting thing going on with the credibility of Donald Trump, and I've thought a lot about why all of the warnings from Democrats didn't land with swing voters or people making their decision based on the price of things, the price of groceries. I wonder what you make of the price he's going to pay for his own credibility to constantly talk about the economy as being a plus plus plus plus plus when record number of people, including his own voters, feel terrible, terrible about the economy.

[Senator Chris Coons]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

First of all, can we extend the Christmas story metaphor? Is Scott Besant the guy who gets his tongue stuck on the frozen lamppost in this analogy?

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, I could talk about Scott Bessant for an hour, but I think I'm actually, I think Steph might be the only Other one that finds him equally ridiculous in the story about people's economic anxiety. Well, Ara, I'll tell you, next time, we can do a whole hour.

[Sam Stein]

It is the season prepared to answer your question. Seriously. There's this old saw among Democrats that goes back to the Clinton era where the worst thing you can do politically is to talk about the economy that's recovering or in doldrums, to talk about it in a favorable way. And the reason why is that it signals to the voter that you're just detached from reality.

[Senator Chris Coons]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

If you say everything's getting better, take stock of how good things are. The stock market's roaring, we're hot right now, and the voters don't feel it. They're gonna say, not is he making things actually worse from me? But he's totally detached. He doesn't understand what I'm going through. And that's political suicide.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

So there are real risks here. And I wish I had the data in front of me, but there was an interesting poll number where it wasn't. The problem for Trump wasn't so much that people blamed him for the state of the economy or thought the economy was bad. It was that they blamed him for making the economy bad. They thought that his policies were hurting them. And that extends not just to the tariffs, but also to the immigration rates that is disrupting local economies.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Nicole, it's more than detached, because this president, it's not just. He's not just saying or showing. I don't acknowledge your pain. It's a heyday of supreme wealth for Donald Trump and his family and the business people who are surrounding him. Right. Howard Letnick is the Commerce Secretary, yet his firm, Cantor Fitzgerald, is going to have one of the best years ever. Trump's family business is doing extraordinarily well. In the last day, we learned that in video the chip maker, we've now changed legislation so they're going to be allowed to export their super chips to China. Okay? If you have the best chips, you will win the AI race. All of this completely undermines the reason we were putting in place the trade war to win. And it's just, how do we get richer? How do the businesses that we're now in business with become more successful? While the American people who are watching the East Wing become a ballroom are scratching their heads, saying, I wasn't invited to the Great Gatsby theme party at Mar a Lago, I'm looking for a job.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and I think, Sam, I think a Trump critic would say he's been Grifting the whole time he's been on the stage, but I think he was able to make his ostentatious gold toilet wealth feel contagious. That part of the Trump story is over. It has come crashing down around him, but he hasn't shifted his tactics. If anything, they're in overdrive. He's taking jets from the. He's in the crypto business. Do you see the corruption and the grifting landing differently politically?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, 100%. I think, yes. It's fair enough to say he's been grifting for a while, but I think this is like a stratospherically different level of it. And just the optics. We always talk about that. But Steph was right. I mean, the idea that you would throw this kind of lavish Great Gatsby party at your private club at the same time that your party was considering cutting food stamps is a shocking piece of political malpractice. Right. So I think that's part of it. But I think the corruption stuff extends even beyond the economy. It's like you can even extend it to the Epstein stuff where it's, why is he not releasing these files? It's because there's a bunch of rich people who are stuck in them and who don't want to be exposed. You know those little things where corruption becomes the umbrella under which you put all these issues.

[Senator Chris Coons]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

And not just rich people, but, like, the kind of people nobody really knows. Like, the people who take private planes to.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Those are people who nobody knows, but who would be happy to pay a fortune to make sure these files don't become public. And remember, Donald Trump is not running again. So while he is in this White House, he and his family can ring the cash register as much as humanly possible and laugh on the way out.

[Nicole Wallace]

We'll see if they're laughing. Sam Stein, thank you for joining us. We'll give you a warning and do the whole Christmas story properly next time. Steph sticks around because when we come back, how Donald Trump and his allies could reshape the entire media landscape, silencing voices critical of his agenda and moving the country to one giant step closer to autocracy. That conversation's next.

The larger media world is bracing for a massive battle involving some of the largest and most prominent media companies in the world. And the Trump administration is in the middle of it, set to play a major role in how it all plays out. On Monday, Paramount, Skydance launched a hostile takeover effort for Warner Brothers Discovery. The two media conglomerates have been in Negotiations for weeks about a potential sale. Paramount made this move after Warner and Netflix announced a deal on Friday which would merge those two companies but not include CNN or other cable chann. So then Paramount Skydance, which is run by David Ellison, whose son is Larry Ellison, who's a big Trump guy, who since gaining control of that corporation, has shaken up Paramount's news and entertainment properties in order to appease the Trump administration. Moves which have included the $16 million settlement with Donald Trump. Over 60 minutes, Kamala Harris interviewed during the 2024 presidential campaign, along with the cancellation of Stephen Colbert's wildly successful late night program, which Donald Trump happily has taken credit for on social media. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Ellison's father, that billionaire Oracle co founder Larry Ellison. As we said, a Trump ally called Donald Trump after the Netflix deal was announced and told Donald Trump the transaction would hurt competition, according to a White House official and a person familiar with the matter. During a recent visit to Washington, D.C. david Ellison offered assurances to the Trump administration and their officials that if he buys Warner, he'd make sweeping changes to cnn, common and frequent target of Trump's ire. That's according to people familiar with the matter. Trump has told people close to him that he wants new ownership of CNN as well as changes to CNN programming. Now, like most massive media mergers of this size, the Justice Department would have to approve any deal between Warner, Netflix or Warner, Paramount or any combination thereof. Which means none of this happens without Trump's approval. I want to bring in Oliver Darcy. He's the author of Status, our newsletter source for all things media. Our favorite one, Steph, is still here. So here's my question. Other than Richard Gere's character in Pretty Woman, I don't really know what a hostile takeover is like. What did Trump's media company try to do to Time Warner, which also seems to have some Trump adjacent, or at least Trump open figures running it? Why didn't that work out?

[Oliver Darcy]

Well, I think for people watching this deal play out, they might be like, why do I care about what happens with Netflix and Warner Brothers and these assets? And I think a couple reasons. One is if you care about how entertainment is shaped and the idea of like potentially a Trump ally gaining a legendary studio like Warner Brothers or hbo, that's interesting, right? But more importantly, Donald Trump has inserted himself into this process, which is sort of unprecedented. The President of the United States saying he's going to play a role in approving a deal here. Which leaves you to wonder, how are they going to Curry favor with Donald Trump. What is Netflix going to do to get an edge with Donald Trump? Are they going to do what Amazon has done, which is give Melania Trump this documentary? Are they going to do something else? What is that going to look like? And with David Ellison and Paramount, what are they going to do? I think that's actually more interesting because they want cnn. They want not only Warner Brothers and hbo, but they want the cable assets, which includes cnn. And we know that David Ellison, he said this yesterday on cnbc, which was kind of strange, he just admitted this. But he said he's talked to the president about cnn. And now we have the Journal reporting that he's assured Trump if he gets that company, he's going to make changes to cnn. Obviously, those would be in a more pro Trump direction. And so I think people should care about this because at the end of the day, you're seeing media moguls basically have to grovel before the president to get a deal done. And they're obviously going to want to give something to him so that they have a. They have an edge in this whole.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Transition, and it's not.

[Nicole Wallace]

Can I ask one more question, though? Because I barely understand this myself.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Yes, you do.

[Nicole Wallace]

Didn't Netflix already make a deal with Time Warner?

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

They did, but nothing's been agreed upon. And remember, you need to get regulatory approval. And we have already heard from the Paramount side that we think we have a better chance of getting regulatory approval. This is an all cash offer and Trump has made it clear he likes one deal over the other. He dangles Brendan Carr, the FCC chair out there. Remember when the Jimmy Kimmel, right, you kept saying, why is Bob Iger letting this happen? Because Bob Iger didn't just have to worry about Jimmy Kimmel. He's got espn, he's got the NFL, and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of business in front of the business.

[Nicole Wallace]

But obviously not more hundreds of millions of dollars than the millions of Americans who canceled Hulu and Disney.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Okay? And that is why it's an extraordinarily tricky balance for these business leaders. Put Ellison aside, who's clearly in Trump's camp. But for the most part, many business leaders are neither left or right. They're trying to focus on their shareholders, their customers, their employees. But in the environment that we're living in with Trump, you have to aggressively curry favors with him or get on his right side if you want to.

[Nicole Wallace]

Get what you want.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

The only even example I can think of lately of a business leader who didn't was Jamie Dimon of JP Morgan is one of the only major companies that didn't give millions and millions of dollars to the new ballroom. And he said, I'm not going to give that money because I don't want the next president to be elected. And we all get in trouble for currying favors. We don't want this for bribing.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think he was worried it was a bribe.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

He doesn't want this to look like a bribe. And the fact that he said that out loud shows this new world we're living in that you've got to pay to play with the president.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is. If you are a pro democracy, consumer of shows, who are you rooting for?

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Msnbc? Oh, sorry, I don't know.

[Oliver Darcy]

I mean, I think that's the question. I mean there's a lot to think about here. If Netflix gains these assets, they basically have to some extent, you might argue a monopoly over the entertainment industry. And that might lead to thousands of jobs eventually being cut. Now they're obviously saying that that's not going to be the case. They're going to be growing the businesses. But consolidation typically isn't good for these industries. And if you care about democracy, do you want CNN falling into the hands of a pro Trump force that's apparently talking to Donald Trump about the changes he might make at the network? I don't, I doubt you.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

And remember, it's not just the Ellisons.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

The Ellisons have put forward $12 billion of financing, Jared Kushner and five different Middle Eastern sovereign wealth funds. Okay. In the 55 page SEC filing, Jared's name, the President's son in law isn't even listed until page 48. And the fact that they have put together north of $20 billion to finance this, I didn't think in a modern world we would say, oh sure, the Saudi sovereign wealth fund, the Qataris, they're going to have hold over at least a portion of US media.

[Oliver Darcy]

But if the Saudis too, by the way, which butchered a journalist not too long ago, the idea that they would be a part time owner or part owner of CNN is astonishing.

[Nicole Wallace]

But if Trump is at 36% and dropping like a stone, the Saudis are maybe the only people less popular than him, why do they think this is a good branding effort?

[Oliver Darcy]

I have no idea, Stephanie.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Access and control.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right, Right.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

But to what?

[Nicole Wallace]

To like a shrinking part of the.

[Oliver Darcy]

Public is really, they probably need the money. So that's why they went to the Middle east for this money. But, but there's a clear reason that David Ellison, when he's on cnbc, is not talking about his Middle Eastern buddies who are financing this deal. It's because it's not popular. Right.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

And the Saudis have had a push for access into the US and normalization of Saudi Arabia. They want tourism to move there. They want business to move there. And this is another step towards it.

[Oliver Darcy]

If you're Saudi Arabia, how great would it be if you own this asset And White Lotus is shooting White Lotus in Riyadh. Right.

[Nicole Wallace]

Just not believe we're talking about Donald Trump, Larry Ellison and the Saudis.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Rush Hour four being shot in Riyadh.

[Nicole Wallace]

There you go. All right. No one's going anywhere to fit in a quick break. We'll try to find a silver lining on the other side.

What made you confident that you could do something that hadn't been done before?

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

I have no fear of failure. Trailblazing women, changing the game. One of my favorite pieces of advice, think about what your boss's boss needs.

[Nicole Wallace]

Leadership can look in many, many different forms. It really does come down to just trusting yourself. Life is short, and you just gotta think big to accomplish big things.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Julia Boorstin hosts CNBC Changemakers and Power Players. New episodes every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nicole Wallace]

I have.

[Democratic Politician or Commentator]

One more bit of entertainment news to.

[Nicole Wallace]

Share, and that is that I've decided.

[Democratic Politician or Commentator]

To extend my contract here at ABC for another.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Thank you.

Our show has been renewed until.

[Democratic Politician or Commentator]

Please sit.

[Senator Chris Coons]

It's embarrassing, but our show's been renewed.

[Nicole Wallace]

Till May of 2027 or until the world ends.

Oliver and Steph are trying to make sense of all this to me. So square that example with what you're both, I think, articulating about the sort of masters of the universe in the media space. This was very much something that seemed beyond people's control until people took control of the matter. And Trump is increasingly unpopular. Voters voted on an idea in California about redistricting that people say, oh, voters, you know, there's so much disinformation, they won't go for that. I mean, it does seem like in a climate where people are only paying more and more attention as we head into the midterms and then a presidential. There's real brand risk to being on the Trump wagon.

[Oliver Darcy]

I don't disagree with that. I think there is real brand risk. But I think if you're looking at this from the way the companies are looking at this, Paramount right now, which is owned by David Ellison, does not have enough scale to meaningfully compete in the streaming wars. They have to Acquire another company, Warner Bros. Discovery, to compete as a business. If they lose a few million subscribers, really, that doesn't matter that much because they need, like, 100 million more subscribers, and that's why they want to own HBO Max. And so I think they probably have factored this into their equation, and it just for them, better business, they think to capitulate to Donald Trump to try to get this deal done so they can compete with Netflix, they can compete with Disney. Right now, they can't. And so.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

And if you're Netflix, the reason you're happy to have the opportunity to play ball during a Trump administration is during a Biden administration, you wouldn't even been able to get up to bat because Lina Khan, who was the chair at the time, would have said, no, we're not supporting monopolistic behavior. Netflix will get too big. We don't want this. So for those big companies who have the desire to get even bigger, which obviously they all do, but it's hard to do in a regulatory environment, this is when they're gonna try to thread the needle.

[Nicole Wallace]

What opportunities are created in the media universe when these brands become so toxic that no one wants to stream anything or listen to any music from a capitulator?

[Oliver Darcy]

I mean, I think that's. I don't know if that's necessarily true. I think there are some people who do cancel Disney or, you know, when Jimmy Kimmel gets tossed off the air. Most people do not. The majority of people do not.

[Nicole Wallace]

And so, I mean, enough did for. For Bob Iger, either from his yacht in the south of France or wherever he hangs out, to reverse this decision publicly. Not very many people like that reversal.

[Oliver Darcy]

There aren't very many good choices, though, right now. So that's the issue. I mean, we were talking about this earlier. David Ellison's obviously capitulating Donald Trump and telling him what he wants to hear. Ted Sarandos, the CEO of Netflix, is also at the White House these days. We don't know what he's saying, but I imagine he's also trying to curry favor with the president of these possibilities.

[Nicole Wallace]

What can he get?

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Black and white, you could say. This is the show that matters to me. He's being taken off air. This situation is way more complicated than.

[Nicole Wallace]

But isn't Jared Kushner pretty black and white for the 60% of Americans who don't approve of this?

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

But 60% of Americans aren't thinking about Jared Kushner. Millions of Americans have no idea who he is. So just pull the thread at night. They can Watch Jimmy Kimmel. When they can't, they're saying, this doesn't work for me, and they take action. So, you know, they're thinking about, Jared.

[Nicole Wallace]

You have a grim view of the future of media.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

I know I don't have a grim view of it at all. I just think that if you think that the American people are gonna stand up and say, hell no, we won't go. They won't. Because it's a very complicated landscape. I mean, the average me, the average person can't even figure out what platform. Half the shows, I can't even watch TV unless my kids are home. And they tell me what platform Landman is on.

[Oliver Darcy]

I also think part of the problem is that when everyone behaves dirty, then it becomes difficult for the consumer.

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

So that's a great point.

[Oliver Darcy]

We were talking about this earlier. I have an iPhone, right? And sitting right here, I think you have an iPhone as well. Apple's presenting these, like, gifts, you know, the golden trophy to the president. But, like, where are you going to go? You know, Google is like, platforming. Oan, you know, like, all these companies at the end of the day are doing things to curry favor with the administration. So if you want to be good as a consumer and vote with your dollars, where do you send your dollars?

[Ms. Now Promo Announcer]

Muddied the waters enough to confuse. Scott Bessant did an interview last week with Andrew Ross Sorkin. And when Andrew Ross Sorkin was pushing Bessant on Rush Hour 4 and the President getting a well, Scott Besson immediately flipped it to, what did the Bidens do? What did this one do? And for the average voter, they're going to say, I guess they all do these things, even though this is that type of behavior on steroids, on top of steroids.

[Rachel Maddow]

I don't know.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think the American voters have proven themselves increasingly tuned into a lot of these moves as they become more brazen. So I don't know, count me as the odd optimist out. Thank you guys for trying to make sense of it for me. Steph, thank you for spending so much of this hour with me. When you have another hour to do the 11th hour when we come back. Back. Rachel Maddow weighs in on this topic we've been talking about. We'll have that for you after a short break.

I'm extremely fortunate that this week my guest on the Best People podcast can weave together just about everything we've talked about today on this program. She does it effortlessly. Rachel Maddow truly is the best, the best person, one of the best people we know and work with. Take a listen to part of this week's conversation on this very topic we were discussing right here.

[Rachel Maddow]

I think the CBS News takeover has been a huge embarrassment to everybody involved in it. And you know, they should reverse the decision about Colbert. Like he's still on the air now. He's still got a few months horizon left before they're planning on taking him off the air. They should change that. You know what? Donald Trump is negative 24 in terms of his approval rating in the latest Gallup poll. And since then he started talking about Somali people as garbage and has been exposed for carrying out in an ongoing way war crimes that are so obvious in a non war that we're in in the Caribbean that our UK Intelligence partners have pulled out of the five eyes arrangement with us because we are so blatantly breaking the law. They're afraid their intelligence officers or their members of the military who are participating in anything with us will end up going to jail. Like that's what's happened cbs. That's what's happened Paramount, since you decided that you would try to please Donald Trump by taking Stephen Colbert off the air. Like, maybe don't do that. Maybe you can now see.

Where in history you're gonna end up and now's your chance to try to alter that and try to get right. And I think that a lot of institutions are in that same boat.

[Nicole Wallace]

So there's that. You can watch the rest of the conversation with Rachel on this week's episode of the Best People. It's out now on YouTube as well. Just scan the QR code on your screen where you can listen wherever you get your podcast. One more break. We'll be right back.

Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.

[Jen Psaki]

Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive Party caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now.