Charlie Sykes (3:19)

You gotta say, the deal sounds very much like surrender on our part, which I'm in favor of. I mean, great. This needed to end ugly or any other way it needed to end. It was folly to begin with. It was folly throughout. It remains folly. The young person coalition that Charlie Kirk delivered to the president is gone. They've abandoned Donald Trump, the working class peers. The latest poll that just came out showed he's two points underwater with the working class. That's been Trump's base from the beginning. They were the unshakable foundation that got him elected over and over. And they're gone. They're very angry.

Nicole (3:59)

In terms of political temperature checks, those sorts of comments are notable. So is the fact that Megyn Kelly has also joked in recent days that, quote, Trump could drop a nuke and she'd still vote Republican over Democrat. So there's that. But all the same, it highlights a degree of vast, unprecedented not since he descended the golden escalator daylight, not just between Trump and his media cheerleaders like Megyn Kelly, but now between Trump and, as Megyn Kelly points out, actual unshakable blocks of MAGA voters. The New York Times used AI to analyze more than 40,000 comments to Donald Trump posts on his own social media platform and reported to have gauged unease and anger bubbling up in that echo chamber showing the depths of the discontent over the war. Quote, one user who indicated on their profile page that they supported President Trump 100% wrote that Trump had demonstrated a lust for blood. A Trump loving conservative wrote that such threats would destroy the president's legacy. Quote, I'm honestly heartbroken. The user added. While social media sites tend to have a large number of bot accounts, the New York Times highlighted only examples showing no obvious signs of bot activity. Only a quarter of the comments were supportive, including posts praising Trump's backbone and asking him to finish the job. And all of that is just on the question of Iran, which has been going on for 40 days. Before that, there was the Epstein controversy, which Melania just brought back into the center ring. It is another issue over which MAGA and MAGA cheerleaders have expressed frustration with Donald Trump and his administration. But again, thanks to Melania Trump, for reasons about two and a half hours since they happened are still not clear. In case you missed those comments, Melania Trump in head scratching fashion, went to the podium after calling for the pool to assemble to discuss what she called smears having to do with her and Jeffrey Epstein, despite the fact that no one knows what those smears are. She also called on Congress to continue investigating the men in a matter her husband has repeatedly called a, quote, hoax. That's where we begin the hour with the president of Media Matters for America, Angelo Carazone. Also joining us, Charlie Sykes. He's the author of the newsletter to the Contrary. And Miles Taylor is still with us. Angelo, I'm dying to know what all of you think the Melania Trump statement was about. But on this larger portrait of what Megyn Kelly describes, what Ann Coulter describes in the last block conversation, Miles and I just did, the things that figures on the left and in the mainstream media have been saying for nine years now, that the corruption is out front and in front of everybody, that the violations of norms are now policy, that the conduct seems to, quote Marjorie Taylor Greene, quote, insane and that no one can keep straight in satire or in straight political journalism, which crisis is distracting from which.

Angelo Carusone (7:16)

Yeah, I think a couple of things. One, the effects of all these are cumulative. I think that sometimes people are looking for a moment where they make this critique and then something suddenly changes. And as you noted in the intro, even though they are hitting Trump and they are criticizing Trump, they are still careful to say, but I would probably still vote for them. Right. They're not willing to go that far. They're not. And that's okay for now. What's significant about this though? The so what is that? Because the effects are cumulative. It's not just that they are sort of wearing away. Right. It started with policy critiques. That's where it's been for a while. And as you noted, it's starting to get more personal. They're starting to acknowledge that there's something at the core here that's wrong. There's issues of judgment, there's issue of character. That's all brand new. Right. That's what happens when the effects are cumulative. So that's one piece starts to tear down the veneer. And for a figure like Trump, not himself, he relies a lot on Kayfabe. He's a character. He's A character. That's why he gets away with so much, because he's a character in this larger story, which means he's a media creature. So not only if you tear away and you start to strip away at some of that storyline, it makes it harder for people to carry water for him. But when they are critiquing him, even if they're not willing to go so far to say they would change their vote, they're not carrying water, they're not unified, they're not telling his story, which means he doesn't have narrative dominance. So, as bad as everything is, it could be a heck of a lot worse if the right wing was all in lockstep behind him, backfilling and reinforcing every single claim that he went out there and made. And so when you look ahead to the significance of it, yeah, he's going to make some real plays on the election. It seems like he's going to try to attack it and undermine it. But if the entire apparatus that he's assuming is going to help backfill it and reinforce that isn't willing to do that in lockstep, it makes his position and the cards that he plays a lot weaker. And again, it's going to take time, bit by bit as they chip away. But just give one piece of caution, though, because as they are criticizing Trump, it's worth going back to what took place in October, that fight with Nick Fuentes and the Heritage foundation that embroiled much of the right wing. What they were dealing with was where the new power was emerging, and that's in gripers. And the undercurrent of a lot of these critiques about Trump. They're as much about Trump as. As they are about channeling and organizing that new griper phenomenon that is increasingly gaining traction and kinetic energy within the larger Republican base. And so they're tapping into that because that's a growth opportunity for them. And I don't think it's an accident that it's all new media figures on the right that are beginning to make these claims. It's as much about what they believe as it is about how they grow their own respective businesses and audiences. And so there's a little bit brewing here that's percolating that could be a lot scarier and darker on the other side of this.

Nicole (9:58)

You know, this is year 10, Charlie Sykes of every Trump story having something darker behind Mystery Door two. Right. And this was the story. I was looking through some old encrypted messages on my phone from Republicans during the first term, sending laudatory comments about things that happened on my program, but then when microphones were in their faces saying, you know, I'm riding with Donald Trump. The reason we are where we are is because instead of honest coverage about what sort of chicken shit conduct those Republicans carried out by saying one thing in private, encrypted messages, and another in front of cameras so that Donald Trump wouldn't primary them, that's how we got to the insurrection, and that's how we got to a Justice Department that judges basically described as not conducting itself in normal order. I mean, the crisis is here because people said one thing privately. No one has ever been caught on a hot mic saying something nicer about Donald Trump than they say publicly. Everything that has ever been reported by a journalist, caught on a hot mic, reported from a green room, heard on a train, heard on a plane, said in Davos, said to a family member, reported by a relative, reported from a staffer, is always that he is bat bleep crazy. Marjorie Taylor Greene is saying out loud stuff I've heard for nine years about Donald Trump. So I understand that what is next is darker and worse, but it always has been, and that's why we're here. And I wonder what you make of this moment.

Miles Taylor (11:42)

Well, we've reached a moment where Marjorie Taylor Greene is saying that Donald Trump is too insane for her. So think about that. I mean, if only these people had been warned, which they had been, you know, over and over again. Look, you know, Nicole, that I have resisted any irrational exuberance about the crackup of maga, because MAGA is more like a cult than it is like a political party. And we've seen this, you know, again and again. We saw it after January 6th. But I will say that you're right when you describe what's happening now as unprecedented. There's always been that cognitive dissonance on the right, but now it feels like it's in Technicolor. And what's happening now that hasn't happened before is that this criticism is, it is harsh, it is sharp, it is coming from the influencers. But also, I really did find that York Times deep dive very, very revealing. Because the question is, will that ever trickle down to the base? You know, the polls have suggested the MAGA base is still solidly behind Donald Trump. But Angelo is absolutely right. This is a drip, drip, drip, bit by bit. They may not be breaking totally with Donald Trump, but there is hesitation, there is doubt. And that's kind of the midpoint that you want that, you know, that you would hope that people would be at you at least break that sense of, you know, Donald Trump is right. I can never criticize him. And it is interesting the way the war in Iran has broken this coalition. I mean, first of all, you did have people who seriously believed Donald Trump when he said that he was America first, that we were not going to get into those wars. I mean, I think that was naive of them, but they actually believed it. Well, then you have others who want him to, as you quoted, finish the job, stand strong. And here we are at the end of this particular week where Donald Trump not only continues to be embroiled in this foreign conflict, but doesn't look like he's prepared to finish the job. Nobody knows. On the one hand, he's threatening to destroy civilizations. The next day, he tacos out. That looks like a strategic failure, and he's flailing. And so you have this, you know, the people who maybe have had these doubts that they haven't expressed and they feel very, very stark, and you're seeing that expressed. For Ann Coulter to be saying these things. I remember in 2016 debating and arguing with Ann Coulter about Donald Trump, and she had a book in Trump We Trust. And for her to be saying the things she's saying now, and for Marjorie Taylor Greene to say, the guy is so nuts that we gotta consider the 25th Amendment. And Megyn Kelly, who was rallying with Donald Trump before the 2024 election, saying the things that she's saying. Right now. The MAGA audience is hearing things they have been insulated from that they have not heard before.

Nicole (14:28)

Yeah. And I want to be clear, Miles. I'm not suggesting that maga's breaking up. Right. Like, I actually think that Megan and Tucker are doing what they're doing to maintain their supremacy atop the media coalition. I actually think they're more in touch with where the movement is. And I think that one of the two of them is as likely a presidential candidate in 2028 as any. Like, close your eyes and pin a tail on the donkey from the Cabinet room that made the decision against all of their personal judgment about going to war. Any one of them, I think, would be wiped out by Megyn Kelly or Tucker Carlson the 2028 primary in the exact same manner that Donald Trump wiped out Lindsey Graham, Chris Christie, and everybody else around in 16. I just. I think. I don't agree with that, but I think that's where what was the Republican Party is right now. What I think is notable is that if you cover Donald Trump, just take the issue of abortion and you watched anything he said about abortion in the 80s or the 90s or the early 2010s when he was on the Apprentice and asked about abortion. He supported women's right to choose and was not sure how he felt about some later term abortions, but never uttered a pro life statement. He has now taken away a woman's right to choose. First time in our country's history that a right has been taken away from more than half of the population. Donald Trump doesn't believe in anything. And where he has instincts and impulses for protectionism and racism, they are instincts and impulses, not true beliefs. And I wonder if you think this is a moment where Donald Trump is being revealed for who anyone that's actually covered him, or in your case, worked for him, knows he really is.

Miles Taylor (16:19)

He is.

Nicole's Guest (possibly a political analyst) (16:20)

And now that core foundation of his support is starting to see it. But think of it this way, Nicole. If we think about the past year, there have been three stages of the implosion of Donald Trump's support, and they know this. The White House is panicking. If you think about a structure that gets demolished, you get rid of the facade, then you get rid of the structure, then you get rid of the foundation. Well, last year they were talking about how much support Donald Trump had from Americans. The majority of Americans reelected him. Well, they stopped talking about those poll numbers. Why? Because his support, Nicole, among all Americans plummeted by double digits. So then what did the White House do last summer and last fall they started talking about Donald Trump's support among Republicans was still sky high. Well, then the structure got taken down too. Cuz guess what? Those poll numbers among Republicans also dropped by double digits. Now you've got the White House. The past few months, they point to these polls and say, well, he's got sky high approval among the MAGA Foundation. The MAGA base, well, that's cracking apart now too. For the reasons you note, Nicole, is because Donald Trump flip flops on everything, even the foundational promises he made to the MAGA movement. And Megyn Kelly said a word that I think was really important, 3D chess. Donald Trump's most brainwashed loyalists always use this excuse for his worst decisions. They say, well, there's gotta be some other reason he can't make a bad decision, so it must be 3D chess. And she killed that myth with a stake in the heart and said, listen folks, it's not that there's no 3D chess. He lies to you. He breaks promises. But forget all those tiers of polls I told you about, Nicole. The one that matters most, the number that matters most is independence in this country and 2/3 of them do not support Donald Trump. He is hemorrhaging support from independence and that is absolutely trickling down throughout the Republican Party and affecting their electoral prospects.

Nicole (18:19)

Since we've been on the air, I've been handed a post of Donald Trump, who Jackie Alemani reported in the last hour said called her before she was about to go on live TV and said, I'm really, really busy. I can only talk for a second. I'm in a war meeting. But apparently he had time to write a two page on his platform. Absolutely maligning. Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens, Alex Jones says they've all been fighting me for years, especially by the fact that they think it is wonderful for Iran. The number one, lots of weird capitalizations.

Angelo Carusone (18:53)

I don't know.

Nicole (18:54)

I'll try to translate anything newsworthy for all of you. But suffice to say, he's driven out of what's left of what Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't think there's much, but he's driven out of his mind by these kinds of critiques. They seem to consume him. This is the longest post I've seen from him in quite a bit. No one's going anywhere. We do want to come back to our top story. Melania Trump's mysterious statement claiming that she was not a victim of Jeffrey Epstein, claiming that she did not have a relationship and claiming that photos not specific, which ones were, quote, fake. Also ahead for us, there are new details on that bizarre story we brought you yesterday. The Pentagon seeming to pick a war with the pope, Pope Leo the 14th issuing what many in the Vatican took to be a military threat against Vatican. That craziness is something that we'll bring you all the latest reporting on. And the utter stupidity for Donald Trump politically to declare war on the Catholic Church at a time when he's leading support from the every single coalition? We'll have all that later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Anonymous Critic (20:06)

How can any person that is mentally stable call for an entire civilization of people to be murdered, to be wiped out, to never come back again? That's what the president called for. And that shows that there's serious instability in his thinking that he wouldnot only would he even say that in a private room, perhaps with his advisors, but actually go to his megaphone, his truth social and post that for the entire country and the entire world and this isit's unreal. This should never be tolerated. I know that it's a very difficult hard stretch to to see it actually coming through, but the conversation needs to be had and he's out of control and people within the administration need to step up, take responsibility and rein this in.

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Nicole (21:25)

Yeah, good. Thanks.

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Nicole (22:36)

Miles, I think I told you at the beginning of the week I went back and read your first anonymous writings about conversation around the 25th Amendment. And I know on sort of technical and operational terms you yourself have knocked it down as not realistic that this cabinet will do it and not necessarily healthy that fears in the first term were that it would lead to a bloody civil war. But I posit this. I will admit I don't know if I've ever done this on TV. I googled the 25th amendment when that anonymous op ed came out. I was on the air when it broke and people printed it out and I started reading it and I said I don't even know that I understand what this is and how it works. It seems to me that this story isn't about whether the Cabinet. I don't even know if there are enough confirmed Cabinet secretaries to do it. This story is a vehicle for Trump's critics to not just say they disapprove of him, but to talk about something Trump has been doing for nine years, which is on television taking the MOCA test. Trump has been telling the country that he's cognitively fit for nine years. The first time he did it was with Fox, and it seemed like a joke, but he keeps taking these tests to prove his cognitive faculties are intact. His critics keep talking about the name for the 25th amendment. This seems like a different conversation that is happening very intentionally.

Nicole's Guest (possibly a political analyst) (23:59)

It really does. It really does. But the difference, of course, as you and I both know, Nicole, is that in the past 10 years, that sort of onus of accountability has shifted. There really aren't those Cabinet members to hold him accountable anymore. In fact, I don't think we've seen a shred of reporting in the past two weeks amidst this chaos, to indicate there's even a single Cabinet member around Donald Trump who would be willing to hold him accountable in that fashion with the 25th Amendment. So that onus has now shifted to a further layer out. And I wrote on Defiance News this week that that layer is Congress, because you and I both know, Nicole, there's 39 Republican members of Congress retiring from the chamber. This is a historic number. Most of them are moderates fleeing that chamber. But why do I cite that number? Well, the thing that I wrote about was that if only three of them did the thing that you and Charlie were talking about earlier, which is show the tiniest modicum of courage, they could keep this man in check. They could threaten impeachment, they could threaten investigations, they could flip control of the chamber. That doesn't need to happen next week. That could happen this week. And I'll tell you what, just like you went back and you were looking at your messages, I was messaging with several of those Republican members of Congress this week, ones I'm still friendly with, to say, hey, the President's threatening genocide. Now might be the moment, since you're retiring, to do something. And I'll tell you what I got back. I got back the messages you would expect. One of them said, wtf is this guy doing? And I said, yeah, it's crazy. Why don't you do this? And I pasted him. My article didn't respond right These guys are still in private talking about how crazy Trump is. And even when they're retiring, they're not willing to do anything. That's what's so scary is the fear knows no bounds amidst these folks. I've compared it before to a Darth Vader like chokehold is at a distance. He has this influence over these folks. But Nicole, that doesn't mean we're without options because at any moment those people could grow a spine. And it's one reason why I wish Marjorie Taylor Greene had not left the chamber. I can't believe I'm saying that. But she should have stayed because she could have been that.

Anthea Butler (26:09)

Check.

Nicole (26:11)

Let me show you Charlie Sykes what another sort of formerly Trump aligned media figure said. This is Tim Dillon over the weekend.

Tim Dillon (26:22)

This is the greatest con in history to run as an America first and you're going to take care of America and then turn around and go, you know, all of these things, daycare, Medicare, Medicaid, we have nothing to do with that. We're fighting wars. That's what we're here to do. We're here to have a defense budget of 1.5 trillion and we're here to fight wars. It is the greatest scam in history. You got to hand it to him, and I mean truly and not in, you know, again, not like, not in a moral way, but like, you got to hand it to him. This is the greatest about face in political history that I have really ever seen.

Nicole (27:03)

We cover the influencers and I always feel like I have to explain why not, not because of them, but because they delivered the presidency to Donald Trump, because their relationship with their listeners is different from a TV audience. And I've been educating myself about this intimacy. Kara Swisher is someone I talked to yesterday about this for them. And some of this is a post Covid phenomenon. Some of this is this sort of loneliness phenomenon that particularly afflicts young men. There is an intimacy with the listeners of the Joe Rogan program. It is three hours of community of whatever it is, a metaphysical hug, whatever it is for them. It matters when these guys in your ears sort of vibing with you on culture with less politics than people that watch this show would think say that it was all a scam. And I guess my question for you is more psychological one, Charlie. I mean, I think we're gonna learn a lot about whether the Trump voter has pride or dignity. And in that, I mean, it is prideful to say I am still with Trump. It is undignified to say I have been Scammed.

Miles Taylor (28:12)

Well, it's also very, very difficult to say, hey, I was conned. I was so gullible that I actually believe that I was a schmuck. And so that's interesting to hear. These influencers acknowledge that they believe Donald Trump. You know, he's saying that this is the biggest con. Well, you know, put that in a long list of massive cons that Donald Trump involved in. And now they're willing to say, hey, I was wrong about that. I didn't see that before. Maybe he is not the world's greatest negotiator. Maybe the madman theory is pretty much a guy being a madman. So, yeah, this is, this is a significant thing because it's one of the hardest things in the world to do, to admit I was wrong, particularly if you've invested 10 years of your life in making one compromise, one, one moral shift after another because of Donald Trump. And a lot of people are deeply into that. There's the sunken cost of being a Trumpist. But is that happening now? Well, you are seeing it among some of the influencers, and that does least say, look, if you're willing to admit you were wrong, maybe I can admit that we were wrong. We can move on from this guy. And particularly because Donald Trump is technically a lame duck, that the cost of moving on from Donald Trump is less now than it ever was before. And I think that's going to accelerate throughout the year, particularly after the midterms.

Nicole (29:38)

To be a fly on the wall at tonight's family dinner, we're going to ask Angela about Melania Trump's surprise statement about things that no one was really talking about when it comes to her and Jeffrey Epstein. We'll do that after a very short break.

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Nicole (31:26)

with Angelo and Charlie Angelo. Melania Trump today seemed to confound everybody. Your thoughts?

Angelo Carusone (31:35)

Yeah, she sure did. I mean, she came down. Even Fox News, you know, they were, they were extremely flabbergasted. Look, I mean, obviously there's some kind of a strategic reason for it. I mean, one thing to consider, you know, it hasn't gotten a lot of attention in the right wing media, but there have been a few right wing media hosts that have been sort of weaving and conjuring together this really elaborate conspiracy theory about Epstein ties and Melania Trump and sort of Israeli control of an influence over Trump. So that's not. And they've been hammering it every day. The other thing that sort of popped up that I immediately thought of, people think, oh, she's getting ahead of a story. Maybe somebody called possibly. But some of it has to do with the committee itself. You know, last week I think on the View there was discussion about why she hasn't been called before the committee to testify when they called the Clintons even, because she's in the Epstein files. So that was the way I interpreted that. You know, to some extent she's just getting in front of something and trying to recenter it. You know, she says she should be about the victims, which is a way to say not about me, please don't drag me in front of it. And so now if something does happen, she can point to this as an attack. But either way, it doesn't really matter what the effect, what the cause is. The effect is going to be the same, which is that she's recentering this. And you were just, you know, we were just talking about all the cracks in the right wing media in the MAGA coalition. This is one of the fault lines. And what she basically just did is create a new earthquake on another fault line within Trump's MAGA coalition. Whether or not that was an intention is irrelevant. The effect is very real.

Nicole (32:55)

Well, And I, I buy sort of the least dramatic explanation. Right. Luke said that one of the theories was she googled herself and didn't like what she saw. So I googled her and the first story that came up was a Daily Beast story with a CNN political commentator describing her as the most unpopular first lady in America's 250 year history. But that doesn't mesh with the things she said. I mean, she denied things that I've never heard said. She denied being a victim of Jeffrey Epstein. She denied being a witness to crimes of trafficking and abuse. She denied being his friend. She did not, I mean, she denied things with such specificity that I'd never seen alleged about her.

Angelo Carusone (33:38)

I have seen these things alleged. It's just they're in corners of the fever swamps that, you know, even I don't spend a lot of time in. I mean, honestly. So, and I think if you, you know, I hate to sort of like conjure these guesses, but you could see how this breadcrumb plays out, right? She sees something. She asks a staffer to help her understand what's being said about her. Because remember, these people are all tied into these fever swamps. We can't divorce that from this. They are, they are all creatures of the right wing media, either explicitly or from there. But we're all living in a fever dream now. And so, you know, a staffer could easily be connected to it. I can point to all the shows that have made references to some of these photographs and you know, all these other examples or the fact that she, you know, one of the tie ins on the idea about she knew about the victims being trafficked is somebody sequenced together when she emailed Maxwell with a profile about Jeffrey Epstein and sort of tied the dots that she would have known and that she was sending the email anyway to boost herself. I mean that is, there is actually examples out there, but somebody really needed to be digging to give her a really comprehensive picture of all of those things. They're not, they're not really part of the day to day churn. They live in the bouts.

Nicole (34:50)

I'm not buying it. Charlie Sykes. I mean this is a woman who doesn't weigh in on threats of war crimes and the destruction of civilization, an attempt to end birthright citizenship, the murder of two American citizens. She doesn't weigh in on anything. And she's out there summoning the pool, loading a teleprompter. Shocking Fox News, denying things that. I cover this story every day. I have educated myself on the facts of Epstein. I have read more of the files than I've read of my kids report card. I mean, like it is so niche where this, like I believe, Angela, that it's out there, but it is really hard to find. What do you think? What's your theory?

Miles Taylor (35:35)

Well, this is extraordinary and it's exceedingly strange. As you covered in the last hour, why today? What is she responding to? It's just odd to hear her protesting too much. But the other part of it, and I'm glad you highlighted it, was when she was calling for the congressional hearings when she was calling for the congressional hearings that Republicans have refused to have. So but we can speculate on what her motivation was. You know, my sense is this, it certainly looks and feels like she kind of went rogue, that, you know, Donald Trump is off doing his other thing and she's out there, you know, once again raising the Epstein files, which is the last thing that the White House wants to do and the last thing the congressional Republicans want to have is the first lady Melania Trump saying we need to have hearings and bring the witnesses in and put them under oath, which is exactly what Democrats on that committee have been pushing to do. So the next question is, you know, let's turn the cameras on Congress, turn the cameras on the Republicans in Congress saying, do you agree with Melania Trump about the need for more investigations? And as you pointed out, this comes just a couple of days after the new acting attorney general, Todd Blanche basically said, yeah, we're done with this. We're not going to be doing anything whatsoever. So that part of her statement, you know, probably is going to have, you know, significant. It's going to rattle people on Capitol Hill as, as well it should. But what an extra extraordinary strange episode in an administration where we've had a lot of weird things happen. This really sort of stands out on its own, doesn't it?

Nicole (37:11)

Yeah, and I don't look, I don't even have it there. I mean, it's so weird. I have no idea what it is. But I think that Trump has been so deliberate in dismissing the victims. I think at one point he said he wasn't gonna have them to the White House because they don't, quote, deserve to be there. Pam Bondi refuses to turn around and acknowledge them and starts talking about the dao. And then Melania says, center a hearing around them. It's just more weirdness. Angelo, thank you so much for joining us today. As I said, we thank Miles as well, who had to skedaddle. When we come back, another, another story that doesn't seem real or logical or sensible or like it could exist anywhere other than the Onion. The Pentagon under Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth with what sounds like a threat to the leader of the world's 1.4 billion Catholics. We have new details on that story after a short break. The Trump administration has reportedly worked to threaten and silence the Vatican as it upends norms by invoking God again this week, trying to justify the war in Iran. We told you a little bit about this reporting yesterday about an unprecedented meeting back in January after Pope Leo xiv, he's the first American born Pope, raised alarm over human rights and a new zeal for war. The Free Press reports that, quote, shortly after the speech, Under Secretary of War for Policy Elbridge Colby summoned the Holy See's then ambassador to the US Cardinal Christophe Pierre to the Pentagon, quote, according to Both Vatican and U.S. officials briefed on the meeting. Pentagon brass picked apart the pontiff's January speech, reading it as a hostile message directed at Trump's policies. More from that reporting, quote, Vatican officials briefed on the meeting described it as a bitter lecture, warning that the United States has the military power to do whatever it wants and that the church had better take its side. As tensions escalated, one US Official went so far as to invoke the Avignon papacy, the period in the 1300s when the French crown leveraged its military power to dominate the papal authority. Late today, the Department of Defense refuted that reporting, calling it grossly false, highly exaggerated and distorted. I want to bring in Anthea Butler. She's the chair of the Religious Studies Department at the University of Pennsylvania. She's also the author of the book White Evangelical the Politics and Morality of America. Charlie is still here. And Thea, this story like, like everything we've covered today doesn't seem real. Your thoughts?

Anthea Butler (39:54)

No, it doesn't seem real, but it is real. From an administration has tried to basically co opt every religious group they possibly can. And I actually, when I read it, I thought this can't be real. But I also was like very disgusted. And I'm disgusted because of two reasons. One is, number one, you actually spoke to a cardinal who is representing the Holy See like this and you're the undersecretary. You're not even a secretary, you're just an undersecretary.

Angelo Carusone (40:19)

Right.

Anthea Butler (40:19)

That's the first thing.

Miles Taylor (40:20)

Right.

Anthea Butler (40:20)

So let's talk about hierarchy. The second thing is, is that, you know, the Vatican is a state. It's not just like you're talking to someone who's like the head of one point, whatever billion Catholics there are.

Angelo Carusone (40:31)

Right.

Anthea Butler (40:31)

It's not just that the Vatican itself is a state. And so, you know, if you're going to threaten that state that resides in the country of Italy, like a mob boss, where mob bosses come from, then you have to expect that you are going to be shunned. And that is exactly what happened. And that is why Pope Leo is never going to set foot in this country while Trump is in office, period. It's not going to happen.

Nicole (40:57)

Anthea. We talk a lot about how Trump has represented a moral test for Republicans that they failed over and over and over again, seemingly in every cycle for the last decade. This seems to present a moral question for Catholics, not just here, but around the world. What are your thoughts on how that's playing out?

Anthea Butler (41:15)

Well, I think any Catholic who has any idea about theology, and I do mean that, because most people who have, you know, were born and raised in the Catholic Church have been trained.

Angelo Carusone (41:23)

Right.

Anthea Butler (41:24)

I think it's really important to understand that the kind of threats and things that are being bandied about are simply not ethical. First of all, it doesn't fall into just war theology, and it actually isn't the kind of thing that anybody who is a follower of Jesus, whether they're Catholic or not, would ascribe to. I think that, you know, what has been happening is this sort of muscular kind of Christianity that Pete Hegseth and others are trying to portray, but it's actually a distortion of the gospels that they claim to believe in. And I think that this is one of those moments where ethically, they look really bad. And there's no two ways about it to treat a cardinal like this, to act as though you can order, you know, a new pope, the first American pope around. I don't think that this is going to sit well with a bunch of Catholics. Maybe the MAGA ones will still stay, but I don't think any Catholics who have been on the fence or did not vote for Trump would even think about ascribing to something like this about the head of the church.

Nicole (42:24)

You know, it's a. It's reporting about things that happen behind closed doors. But what Trump tweeted out on Easter is so brazenly clear. You know, using the upward, not respecting a day that for many, many, many Americans is holy. I mean, there is no. I mean, the faith is performative when it comes at all. But, Charlie, to hear, you know, we started the hour with some prominent media figures aligning Trump's character to see his Defense Department malign the Pope just feels like we're at the bottom of Alice's looking glass now. Looking up.

Miles Taylor (43:04)

Very, very, very much so. Look, the through line between this, you know, arrogantly thuggish attempt to bully the Vatican, which, by the way, failed. Failed miserably. But it does remind us these guys really are kind of medieval in their own way. But the through line between the attempt to bully the Pope and the Easter message is this incredible sense of arrogant hubris that you can wrap yourselves in the guise of Christian morality and behave this way with no consequences whatsoever. And I think that Donald Trump is probably a little bit surprised and a little bit disappointed in the reaction. But let's go back to the fact that they raised the. They go back to the 1300s when there was an anti pope in Avignon. My daughter actually lives very, very close to Avignon. I've been to Avignon. So it is interesting that they know that sort of history, but they have distorted it in a way that they think that they can intimidate the Bishop of Rome. Can anyone imagine what would happen if we had a report that President Obama or President Biden had called in a leading member of the Evangelic Church and threaten them in this particular way? We've had so much rhetoric about the war on Christianity, the anti Christian culture or governmental actions that undermine religious liberty. And yet how do you reconcile the fact that this government is basically at war with the Catholic Church?

Nicole (44:34)

It's incredible. It's incredible. Deserves a lot more attention. We're going to need a lot more from both of you. Anthea Butler, Charlie Sykes, thank you so much for spending time with us on this. When we come back, new evidence that the Trump administration is suppressing scientific fact and it doesn't fit their political worldview. We'll bring you that report next. Donald Trump's CDC appears to be once again suppressing vital information about vaccines. Washington Post is reporting this quote. The acting director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has delayed publication of a CDC report showing the COVID 19 vaccine cut the likelihood of emergency department visits and hospitalizations for healthy adults last winter by about half. That's according to two scientists familiar with the decision. The scientists spoke anonymously for fear of retaliation. The move has raised concerns among current former officials that information about the vaccine's benefits are being downplayed because they conflict with the views of Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Who is an outspoken critic of the shots. While the acting CDC director cited concerns about the report's methodology is the reason for delay. The Washington Post also reports, quote, the same methodology has long been used by the CDC to evaluate vaccine effectiveness for respiratory viruses, including influenza. A report about flu vaccine effectiveness this past winter used the same methodology and was published in the CDC's scientific journal a week earlier.

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