Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (1:57)

I have this like lump of money

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (1:59)

that I have, you know, set aside

Angelo Carusone (2:01)

to build my new house and then

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (2:02)

we go to war in Iran and the prices are just going up, but my pile of money is not getting any bigger.

Nicole Wallace (2:07)

Like some of the stuff that's been

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (2:08)

happening is just so

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (2:11)

shocking.

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (2:12)

It like just seemingly out of nowhere to me, like, you know, the Venezuela

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (2:17)

situation or the war Iran or just

Nicole Wallace (2:21)

some of the other rhetoric.

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (2:23)

It's just really bizarre and there's not a whole lot of good stuff happening.

Nicole Wallace (2:29)

So this thing that used to aid Trump, right, the blur, the blur of mayhem, is now hurting him with his own supporters. So as you can imagine, his one time voters are mad the rest of the country, especially swing voters and independents, are furious. As we have been reporting, tens of thousands of Americans are on the streets today all across our country as they express their outrage at Donald Trump's policies and presidency. It is an outrage that is also revealing itself in new polling that for any politician, even Donald Trump, is devastating. A new Pew poll out today finds that just 34% of Americans approve of Donald Trump's performance as president. That that is the lowest number Pew has registered for Donald Trump in his second term. It follows an AP poll that found just 33% of Americans approve of the job Donald Trump is doing as president. Those excruciatingly low numbers are driven in no small part by the war with Iran and its economic impacts. Case in point, today the Washington Post released this poll with the headline Trump's Iran War reaches Iraq and Vietnam Era Disapproval levels. And it actually gets worse for Trump. From the headline, the poll finds that 61% of Americans say that using military force against Iran was a mistake. 19% of all Americans say the U.S. actions in Iran have been successful. 19% that isn't. That's less than half of the self described MAGA coalition voted for Trump. For Americans already worried about their economic burdens and paying their bills, paying for food and gas and electricity, their fear and anxiety and the damage that Trump has done to the economy has tapped into something visceral and it does not appear that it will recede anytime soon. 60% of Americans say they believe Donald Trump's war has increased our chances of the country heading into recession. Donald Trump's unforced error in Iran driving his poll numbers to their lowest ratings since he entered the political arena with seemingly no end in sight is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts in France, newly minted Ms. Now military analyst. I love that I get to say that Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling is here with us. We're so lucky and happy to have you in the family. He served as the commanding general of the US army in Europe. Also joining us, Media Matters for America President Angelo Carazone is back with us. We are equally happy to have you back today. And joining me at the table, New York Times opinion writer, political analyst Mara Gay. We are most happy to have you and have you here at the table. What's interesting is, I mean, Angelo and I have had this conversation for as long as I've known him is that Trump defied gravity like it is essential to his political identity as anything to to be immune from things like unpopularity or A base that will weigh in or render judgment. And I don't know what the future holds, but that period seems to be over.

Trump Supporter Caller (5:41)

Oh, there's no question the base seems to be collapsing in on the President. And I think a lot of this has to do with just how

Nicole Wallace (5:52)

far

Trump Supporter Caller (5:53)

Americans have fallen from a place of security in their day to day lives. It is remarkable if you look at all of the, there's the polls on the president, but you can also track the polls about what is happening. There's some numbers that Americans are dealing with, whether it's at the gas pump, the rent, housing, it's hard to buy healthcare. Well, Americans are by the tens of thousands losing their healthcare coverage because the subsidies have expired and the Republicans in Congress allowed that. So by every measure, Americans are struggling. Daycare, education, it just, it doesn't end. And I think the White House is, its response was to go to war in Iran and build a ballroom and start taking away voting rights. So I think there's a growing sense that Donald Trump has sold a false sale of goods, of bills to his own base. Other Americans saw what he promised, I think with clearer eyes, honestly, but I think even those in his base are saying, wait a second, I may not have liked everything else, but I thought gas was gonna be cheaper, I thought there was gonna be more money in my wallet. I thought he was going to drain the swamp and bring clarity to the Epstein files. No, he has reneged on all of those promises and instead is, I think, going to war because it's desperate, it's a distraction and it's making Americans even angrier. And I think it also just highlights the, the visceral anger Americans have across the political spectrum toward billionaires, toward the oligarchy, corporations that are taking increasingly large shares of Americans wallet. And I think that is finally starting to bring Donald Trump's once gravity defying run to an end. And I do think there's a sense of panic. He's not quite sure what to do. And I think it's too late in some ways to pivot at this point ahead of the midterms. And as we've talked about before, he doesn't care what happens to the Republicans in Congress necessarily, whose seats are on the line. He cares more about himself. But I think you've gotta be thinking that this is destroying your legacy, if nothing else. I mean, I would just appeal to him, just, you know, it's not too late to be a better president. You know, Americans are hurting, you know, you care about your legacy. Just change Course, now I really don't have a lot of hope that he cares about day to day Americans. At the same time, we know he does care about his own perception. He's deeply sensitive in that way to public opinion. So I'm just heartbroken to see Americans suffering in this way. And obviously, then the Supreme Court decision that came down this week, gutting the Voting Rights act, that is just another sign that Americans realize their democracy is being taken away. And all the while, the President seems to be perfectly insulated in his ballroom. So the disconnect is growing. Reality is coming for this president, and it's uglier and uglier.

Nicole Wallace (9:01)

You know, Angelo, there can be. I think the inverse is also starting to happen. Right. Like people who've covered Donald Trump's assault on the rule of law and his effort to politicize the military day in and day out for 10 years kind of missed how unpopular the brand became with large swaths of the country. I mean, Trump has been underwater with independence for almost a year. Trump has been underwater on immigration, economy, inflation, tariffs for almost a year. Trump is now more underwater on foreign policy than at any point in 10 years. Trump, I think, is sort of nearing, you know, Bush 43 numbers on approval. He left office at 32%. Two serious polls have him at 33%. This is the third. The country has sort of logged back in, taken the measure of the second term and said, thank you. No.

Angelo Carusone (10:03)

Yeah. And I want to actually put an exclamation point on that and also acknowledge something that you were saying a year ago, because it was a year ago when the vibes were, you know, when Trump had narrative dominance completely, when the rest of the right wing echo chamber was behind him. So they were spinning his stories. And for a large part of the country, despite the fact that the policies were unpopular, the vibes were. They were great because they were Trump supporters. And at that point, revenge was a priority, and they just loved it. They loved how much he was owning the libs and how much he was making the media mad. And the vibes were great for them, and it felt like he was unstoppable. But the thing that you were pointing out then was that eventually reality is gonna have to set in. These people are gonna have to drive to work, they're gonna have to go to the store, and the policies are so fundamentally disconnected from their lives that even if they have fidelity for Trump or loyalty to Trump, that they're gonna have to marry that with the reality of their lives. And what you're seeing Right now is sort of playing out in those polls is that a large part of these people, of his current supporters, they're no longer willing to ignore the things that are sort of cutting against them because the vibes aren't great anymore and the costs have gotten so high. I mean, you know, I was listening to the beginning of the segment when you're playing all those people from the bulwark. And I'll tell you, that sounds a lot like right wing talk radio right now. The callers, I mean, it's not that disconnected. They are calling. They may not be as sharp. They don't let on. Some of those people that are directly connected to Trump, although it gets through, but they are griping about the same thing because when the Iran war started, the gas price went under $3 and now they're more than $4. And to your point, independents were already there. A large part of the country that are considered double haters, people that don't like both parties or pox on both houses. You know, Republicans are losing them by more than 30 points right now. That trend started last summer. That didn't just start because of the Iran war, like we're seeing with Trump supporters, that trend amongst those sort of movable, more dynamic parts of the voter base that started a year ago. And so the seeds were already, were already sown. And that's the reality that we're living in now. It's a different context. And to put a sort of a fine point on all of it, a bow on all of it, in many ways, Trump has been extraordinary. He's defied the laws of gravity. He's defied in the opposite direction, too. As you noted with President Bush, it was eight years before he got to that number. With Carter, it was a whole term. With Trump, it's 15 months.

Nicole Wallace (12:18)

Yeah.

Angelo Carusone (12:19)

I mean, that is the opposite end of this. The reaction is being just as fierce and just as strong.

Nicole Wallace (12:25)

Well, and what's interesting, and I think you're giving me too much credit now, I think I like it better when you don't buy my position. But I think what I hoped was that people would not experience economic despair. I think it was around the tariffs and I think I hoped that he would taco and that people wouldn't have to pay more at Walmart. Like if you've got kids, if you've got pets, if you've got a house, like stuff costs a lot already. And the idea of having to take things in and out of a cart because it suddenly costs more was something I don't wish on anybody, but it happened and he did it. And so people effed around with Trump, and they're finding out that he didn't mean any of the things he said about making anyone's life better. And I think there was this thing, and people in the media, I don't think did a good enough job calling it out that his vote, he made his voters think that he would screw me, but not them. And I don't think there was. Like, that's. When it comes to destroying the economy, that's impossible. Right. Like, our carts are all going through the same checkout line. And so I think that the economy is just this thing that is so deeply tied to your sense of security and safety that when everything is suddenly more expensive and you're choosing between back to school shopping and the groceries, and then you get an unexpected hospital bill from an ER visit and you're deciding whether to go to the doctor with a tick bite or not, you are really mad that it was all bs. And I think some of that is what's coming home to roost and showing up in the polls. Angela.

Angelo Carusone (13:58)

Yeah, I think that's. I do. I think that's right. And I will just note one thing, though, and this is the point of it. I wasn't gonna say it, but since you brought it up, I feel comfortable saying it, which is that there is a sort of a. So what component to this? You know, we shouldn't ignore the fact that Trump is an authoritarian and he is going full authoritarian now. Right. That he doesn't care about the popularity anymore. I mean, I mean, all these tech leaders are showing up at the White House, still being invited. I mean, last week, you know, his own members of Congress are out there calling for public funds to be used for the ballroom. Right. I mean, there's so many ways in which he is still a uniquely destructive force. And the typical things that would be a check on his actual power haven't actually converted or changed over yet. And we haven't actually seen any evidence, as you noted in the beginning part of the discussion with Maura, that, you know, even though these individual members of Congress are all going to suffer politically, they still haven't changed their behavior toward Trump. So it's not that they even have to be an active opponent. They're still enabling and facilitating these policies and the types of activities that he's doing. There hasn't even been the tiniest bit of speed bump that they've erected. And I think that's part of the thing that I find deeply unsettling about all of this is that he's now made a decision and a posture that he's gonna go for broke and he's not gonna try to sort of, you know, maintain some of these keys on the ascent to getting power. He's gonna try to consolidate it and maintain it through sheer force of will at this point, despite the larger public opinion. And that's gonna be the real test for our civic institutions and our democracy.

Nicole Wallace (15:23)

So General Hertling Angelo is the third person in three days to raise this point that he may be barreling down the path of that which is deeply unpopular because he doesn't plan to honor and respect the will of the voters. To that point. Pete Hegseth yesterday, in a very, very blatant way, refused to answer Senator Alyssa Slotkin's question about whether or not he would deploy active duty military to the streets. In an echo to a warning from John Kelly right ahead of the election that was so ominous. General Kelly said, having active duty soldiers on the streets is not what we train for, it's not what the military is for, and it is what Donald Trump always wanted.

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (16:14)

Yeah. Nicole, first of all, if you don't mind, I'm going to thank you very much for the warm welcome you gave and the support you gave bringing me on, asking me to come on with you. And it's great to be with this values based team. What I'll say, listening very intently to Angelo and Mara, both of them ticked off a whole bunch of things. As you know, the concepts that have been bothering me for a very long time are the international issues that the President has been somewhat remiss in addressing. But now listening to Sarah Longwell's interview with all those, the ones that are turning against the President, it seems to be focused more on the gas prices and the cost of domestic issues. Now we're seeing, I think, and this is what both Mara and Angelo said, we're seeing every facet of American life affected, from international affairs to war, to the treatment of the military, to health care, to economics, to the Constitution, to lawyers, to, you know, you could go down the list and, and tick off everything. And I would think that there's something that, that the military calls indicators. When we saw some of the nominees for cabinet positions, we had indicators of what was about to happen. And we've continued to see that over the last 15 months. None of this is a surprise. You know, the indicator, the first indicator to me was at a NATO conference where the President pushed aside one of his fellow members of the NATO college and basically rushed to the front with no respect for that individual who was the president of a country. That's an indicator, and that's a small one, but it certainly tells you what kind of personality you're going to have in the highest office on the world in terms of Democratic leadership. So yeah, this is troubling when you see the Secretary of Defense Hegseth testifying before Congress and the hubris just oozing out of the helm. What I've always been taught, if you look at Greek mythology, hubris is always followed by nemesis to try and correct the action. We're gonna see a whole lot of nemesis in both international and domestic affairs in the next few months or weeks. And we're already starting to see it in polling numbers.

Nicole Wallace (18:45)

Yeah, I mean, I wanna press you, General, on the we have the most comprehensive set of public opinion data since the war began. I want to share that with our audience and impress you on how that impacts military families and military communities. Everyone sticks around. We have much more on this story as Donald Trump's political support collapses, even among some of his most loyal voters and supporters. Also had for us how Donald Trump's presidency continues to make millions and millions of dollars for Donald Trump and his kids. Today there are big new developments, big new reporting pieces to to show you that prove once again that when it comes to Trump world, the grift is out in the open and it is not hemmed in by shame or law or norms. Deadline White House continues after a quick break, so don't go anywhere.

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Trump Supporter Caller (20:55)

I feel like it's such a downward turn as soon as the Epstein files came out, which really puts this thing in my heart to think that maybe

Angelo Carusone (21:02)

he did do something bad.

Trump Supporter Caller (21:03)

Because it's like now, I mean, everything is going wrong after the, even the threat of the Epstein files. And my home base is Texas and gas is almost $5 a gallon here, which is ridiculous. I have a real problem with. My dad's the Marine. I just don't believe in losing American lives for something that has nothing to do with us. Right. I'm just like, come on guys, let's support ourselves before we start handing out money to other countries. And the price of groceries makes me want to cry.

Nicole Wallace (21:34)

We're back with General Hertling. Angela Amara. So Joe Hertling, that was a three time Trump voter from Texas who when it came to the war said, quote, I just don't believe in losing American lives for something that has nothing to do with us. That is her view. And Donald Trump has not said or done anything to change that view. There's no sustained conversation with the country or even someone who voted for him three times about why she should feel differently. What impact does that have on the men and women of the military and

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (22:06)

their families when the nation goes to war at any time? Nicole the leaders of the government have to gain trust with the American people. They sometimes do that through Congress by getting Congress to vote on their side. Neither of those things have happened in the last two conflicts and I'm including Venezuela in that. There is no knowledge of what was going to happen and why there still isn't. You know, there have been proclamations about the various end states and what we're trying to do and now we have many in our Congress saying, well, we had to do this because of the situation and preventing Iran from getting a nuclear weapon and, and all that is well and good, but it wasn't explained beforehand and it wasn't explained how we were going to do that. It's not just for the military to understand that. It's for the American people to support any kind of conflict we send our young men and women into. But, but the other part I'd say on that is, is I keep coming back to the fact that the various Times I went off to war, my family, my wife especially, would say, hey, I trusted the government in terms of what they were telling me. And even if some of it was disconnected, like going in for chemical weapons in Iraq, at least there was a plan, and it was voiced before the American people and to our allies. That did not happen in the last two cases with sending forces into combat. So when you don't have that trust and then you start listening to a lot of swagger and as I said before, hubris coming from those who were controlling the military, like the Secretary of Defense, it's very different than back in the day. And I hate to age myself by saying that when we were hearing from people like Colin Powell or the Secretary of Defense explaining what was happening, even though sometimes they got it wrong. So there has to be an intent when you use America's treasure, their young men and women, to understand what they're fighting for. And in this case, we've not only not explained that, but we've kept a good number of our military forces in an area for a very long time, seemingly without a reason or a disconnect in terms of what we're trying to do.

Nicole Wallace (24:35)

Angelo, the polls show something that is an awful sign for a politician, that people feel terrible about the future. So they feel terrible about what has happened. They are registering their discontent with the Epstein files and the things that have happened. The ICE raids, the killing of two Americans in Minneapolis. They feel bad right now. Their economic situation and their views about the war in Iran are bad right now. But in some ways, for a politician, it's their fears about the future that are the greatest political peril. And these are the numbers of Americans who think that the likelihood of terrorism against Americans has gone up. That in the future, tomorrow and the next day, it is higher. 61%. I don't think I've seen a poll with a number in the 60s about the likelihood of terrorism since the months after 9, 11.

Angelo Carusone (25:30)

Yeah, I mean, it shouldn't be surprising, right? Because it's Cash Patel, right? I mean, it's the people around him and that don't inspire a lot of confidence. And then layered on top of that is Trump himself, who's out there basically saying, I don't care. I'm not paying attention. The decisions I'm making are kind of incoherent. They don't seem to connect to any real reality. And I think that caller who made that point at the beginning, you know, it's like this was the thing that got me thinking. So Epstein, in That case, you said, well, ever since Epstein, everything else started seeming to be different. Nothing was really different. And after Epstein. But she's seeing it differently because it changed her perspective, her analytical. Well, now I'm starting to question things. That's what everybody is experiencing right now. And the difference really between what has been going on slowly over the last few, before the Iran war and now the Iran war is that his own people, his own supporters at scale, are beginning to ask themselves these questions. And a larger portion of Americans, and they're basically asking the question of is this guy making good decisions? And then layer on top of it, he's falling asleep. You know, he doesn't seem totally connected. Like people are adding all these things together and it doesn't sort of add up. He's doing weird stuff. He's focused on the wrong things. And the things he is focused on don't seem to inspire any confidence. So it isn't terribly surprising that there's actual fear, not just anxiety, but fear about what is likely to happen to their individual lives in the coming months and years.

Nicole Wallace (26:51)

General, this will either hearten you or. Or break your heart. People care about the thing you've devoted your life to. Trust and strength of our alliances. And when asked a question by the Washington Post of the impact of the war in Iran on our relationships with our allies, 56% of Americans recognize that the war weakens our relationship. Only 12% think it strengthens our relationships with our allies. And I don't know who that 12% defines as our allies. Right. If they think they're getting better. We now have the least cooperation from our European allies than we've had ever. And people don't like to be hated by our allies. People understand their safety in numbers. Just at a gut level, what is your sense of how many Americans have registered that that is not a good development?

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (27:43)

Yeah, it certainly. First of all, I'll comment what you just said. Yes, that is part of what I devoted my entire life to is building alliances. Because when you're in the military, you understand if you're about to be sent into conflict, you want allies with you, you want them to contribute the kinds of things they train and exercise with you that they bring to the fight that maybe you don't, if only for the quantitative value of having more people join you. And yeah, this is hurtful. And I've been watching because of the amount of time I spent in Europe. I've been watching the opinion polls in Europe, too, and the steady declination in European countries in the 49 European countries, all of them are declining in their trust in America and in the United States military and government. You know, it's interesting because the military folks continue to work with their allies and partners and they continue to try and build teams. But when you have instances of giving up intelligence to, or what people think is giving up intelligence to, sometimes foes are not supporting the kinds of things like the rule of law or the sovereignty of a territory like Ukraine or doing things, attacking without the support of the allies, you really, it's the same thing with the American people. You start losing trust. And when you start losing trust in the allies, that's one thing we can't deploy. We can deploy forces, we can't deploy. Trust, it's either there or it's not. And unless you're building that during peacetime, you're not going to have it during conflict. And I think that's a lesson that our administration is learning right now in real time.

Nicole Wallace (29:26)

Again, welcome to the family and thank you for starting us off. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, Mara and Angelo, stick around a little bit longer with us when the three of us return. The Air Force is now buying drones from a company backed by Donald Trump's kids, just as they take a stake in a mining company and secured over a billion with a b dollars in US Government support. Together, it's another breathtaking news cycle where we are seeing how the Trump administration is pocketing huge sums of money in the pockets of their family members. Those new developments after a short break,

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Nicole Wallace (31:03)

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie and one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home because with every fix, update and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter, from plumbing to electrical roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well, Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project@angie.com as the Iran war enters its third month and faces mounting unpopularity from the American people and ushers in rising gas prices for the American people, Donald Trump's two sons, who are not particularly extraordinary in very many ways that are obvious to us on the outside, they do seem to be making an extraordinary profit from Trump's second term. Bloomberg reports this, quote, the U.S. air Force agreed to buy an undisclosed number of interceptor drones from a company backed by Donald Trump Sons. According to the firm, quote, rather than pursuing an initial public offering, Power S is planning to merge with Eris Greenway Holdings, a golf course operator backed by the Trumps that already has a NASDAQ listing. That's according to an announcement earlier this year. And this isn't even the first drone company investment this year for Eric Trump, by the way. And it's just one example from the growing list of eyebrow raising business ventures for Trump's sons quietly capitalizing on massive deals with their father's administration. Financial Times reports this, quote, a shell company backed by Donald Trump Jr. And Eric Trump has agreed to merge with a critical minerals group that last year secured up to $1.6 billion in US government support to mine tungsten in Kazakhstan. The brothers bought into construction group Skyline Builders in August, taking stakes through a special purpose vehicle run by a subsidiary of Dominari Securities. That's according to three people familiar with that deal. The size of their investment was not disclosed, end quote. Joining our coverage is Daniel Sherman. He is the president and CEO of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. Joining me and Donald, Angelo and Mara are still with us. Take me through what we even know about the conflicts and where conflicts and norm busting rub up against potential violations of law. DONALD trump,

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (33:45)

well, what we know is that while regular folks are struggling with the rising cost of groceries, gas and housing, as well as other everyday items, the Trumps have had the most lucrative year of their lives, profiting off the presidency. We know they've made billions in the last 15 months. We know, according to reporting from Forbes, that last year was the most lucrative year of the President's life. But one of the gaps in the law as it stands right now is that the President's adult sons do not have to file financial disclosure statements, nor are they barred from engaging in foreign deals. And so there's a lot that the public does not know about how much money they're making, who they're in business with. This president likes to call himself the President of Peace, which leads, I think, a lot of us to wonder how come his sons keep finding ways to profit from war, but we really don't have a ton of details because they're not required to disclose a lot of information.

Nicole Wallace (34:49)

The portrait of Trump's sons and their business deals and the grift is amazing. And the timelines are pretty disturbing. They sync up not just to his reelection 15 months ago, but to the beginning of the war.

Trump Supporter Caller (35:05)

Well, it also raises the obvious question, which is, as the President is engaging in wars that have only detrimental impacts, not only on the people who we're dropping bombs on, but on America as a country, on our alliances, on our economy. What is motivating him to continue this behavior? What role does grift and corruption play in that? We really don't know because we don't have full disclosure into these deals. We don't have really any disclosure into these deals. It's also just doubly tragic that our tax dollars are going to this grift. I mean, we are. The American people are being stolen from by the Trump family. They were supposed to come to drain the swamp. Instead, they are now acting as kleptocrats. And then to add more tragedy to that, this is going to warfare to drop bombs on other countries in ways that, by the way, we've never had less transparency into how warfare is being waged by the United States. And I just think back to the other segment that we had a few moments ago. Once people in Trump space have one point of concern. Maybe something isn't right on the Epstein files. Maybe they just, they had. They went to the gas pump and it was just too expensive. They start to pull a string and you start to see things differently. You start to ask questions about everything else. And I think that is why the base is unraveling. But I think the question then becomes, how do you actually build a small d Democratic coalition to restore our nation's democracy, multiracial democracy, the norms that this president has blown through and destroyed with the aid of the Supreme Court, by the way, and a do nothing Congress. So we have so much work to do. It's Great. That the coalition of Americans for whom this is no longer acceptable is growing. But the question is, you know, how do you organize against a White House that is determined to siphon every bit of power for itself and its own benefit and. And also now profit? I mean, we're getting. The Trump sons are getting these deals while Americans are losing health care. We're being told there's no money for health care, there's no money for childcare like in other Western countries. Women are dying because they don't have access to abortion anymore. And this is the priority.

Nicole Wallace (37:52)

Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, it is taxpayer money going into the pockets of these kids. It is, though, also one of the tipping points in Orban's defeat in Hungary. So we'll pull these issues into focus on the other side of a break. No one's going anywhere. We'll all be right back. We're back with Donald, Angela, Amara. So, Angelo, sort of back to the power of this reporting, and Cruz, work on this. I mean, people hate corruption, and it'll take sociologists or anthropologists to explain why it didn't bother them in Trump 1.0. And all the foreign governments had to have parties and blocks of room at Trump's first hotel. Maybe it's because gas wasn't going up every day and he wasn't starting forever wars, but the voters hate this. And it is really structurally relevant to how Orban is ultimately thrown out after 16 years. What do you make of the public sort of finally paying attention to how fat and happy the Trump kids are getting off daddy's second term?

Angelo Carusone (38:54)

I think there's a couple things happening at the same time. One is that it's not just the Trump kids. Right. The corruption is so expansive that it expands out to. If you are an ally or you can pay the right amount of money, you're more likely to get a pardon. If you're a gigantic company and you have business before the administration, you hire the right lobbyists and they'll put some pressure on the ofTC and the DOJ. The Wall Street Journal reported on this to make sure that you get a smooth run. Right. I mean, there's all these real examples of pressure out in public. They're constantly using the FCC to threaten businesses, to control their conversations. And that's where the time with Orban is, is that everybody has a line. I mean, everybody does. Everybody has a limit to what they're willing to tolerate. You know, if you're standing online and somebody cuts you, you might not say anything, but you're going to feel it now. If then they bring in 10 of their friends, eventually you're going to say something. It's just, it's a natural thing. People just don't like it as, you know, it's really basic. And what Trump has basically done, and this is where the tie in is with the first conversation we had, is that it's exceptional. In the Speed Orban was 16 years, it didn't just get to the end. All of a sudden, overnight, Trump is speed running. Not just authoritarianism and crashing poll numbers, but he's also speedrunning, transforming the country into something that is kleptocratic, is deeply corrupt. And so it's hard for people to ignore it. And then the part where they are his own people start to question it, is that the ecosystem that they're a part of, the Megyn Kelly's of the world, the Tucker Carlson's, the people that typically are carrying water for Trump are out there. When they are, you know, sort of criticizing Trump, they're also making references either explicitly or sort of, you know, referencing this level of corruption because it's one vector of attack. They're opening that keyhole view for the supporters to say, oh, no, wait, I don't like this. And the thing that ties it all together is the economy. Now, if people thought their futures were bright and that the economy was stable and Trump had their best interest, they might be willing to change what their threshold is for what they're willing to tolerate. But that's just not the case right now. When they look ahead, they see something darker. And then when they look to the side, they see Trump, his family and a lot of his friends literally pickpocketing them or figuratively pickpocketing them, getting themselves richer while their futures get worse. And so he doesn't have the thing protecting him anymore. That right wing media ecosystem that's helping create that veneer and polishing up the turd that he's created. And then the effect is he's actually getting worse, the corruption, not better. And so it's hard for people to ignore it.

Nicole Wallace (41:18)

Donald Trump has taken a plane. He carries around a little photocopy picture, color copy of a gold ballroom. His sons are enriching themselves. The pardons are for sale. I mean, what is undoing this? What does sort of a reform agenda look like?

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (41:37)

Well, I think the first part of a reform agenda has to be the American public. And as Angelo said, I think the American public are increasingly alarmed that it's not just influence seekers putting money in the president's pocket. But the president and his sons are literally putting their hands in Americans pocket, whether it's suing the IRS for $10 billion or, or investing in this drone company that has government contracts. But I think the next step beyond the public is their elected representatives in Congress. As was mentioned earlier in the segment, the Trump administration could not pull this off if Congress was not complicit in the grift. They're not profiting, but they are allowing it to happen in plain sight. If Congress had asserted itself and asked tougher questions when we entered into this war of choice, maybe we would know how the Trump sons were profitable profiting off of it. If, if Congress was doing real oversight over the myriad ways that this president has his hands in the American people's pocket, there would be an opportunity for oversight and then there would be an opportunity for reform. And so there are some basic things, again, like forcing the President's adult sons to file financial disclosure statements, comply with the emoluments clauses of the Constitution and things like that. But through these are tools that Congress could assert right now, and they're not. And so I think the combination of an angry public pushing a complacent Congress is how we get to reform.

Nicole Wallace (43:07)

Donald Sherman, thank you so much for your work and for joining us today. Angela Amara, thank you for spending the hour with us. When we come back after the president and first lady both call for his firing, McKimmel gets a big embrace from a true national treasure as well as a big ratings boost, one and only Meryl Streep. We'll show you that moment after a quick break.

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (43:31)

How are you doing? Everything all right?

Nicole Wallace (43:33)

Everything all right?

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (43:34)

How are you?

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (43:35)

Good, I'm good, thank you. You know I'm holding up.

Trump Supporter Caller (43:37)

Yeah, you are.

Nicole Wallace (43:39)

You're a prince.

Trump Supporter Caller (43:40)

You are a Knight Templar.

Angelo Carusone (43:42)

You are pleased.

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (43:43)

Thank you.

Nicole Wallace (43:47)

You're carrying the banner of freedom of the press.

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (43:51)

I'm just trying to do some jokes and

Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (43:55)

we all depend on you.

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (43:56)

Well, thank you for staying.

Nicole Wallace (43:57)

The whole world is listening. That was legendary actor, actress Meryl Streep. Last night she was supporting Jimmy Kimmel amid another campaign against him by the Trump administration over a joke he made about the first lady. Yesterday, Donald Trump was at it again, still calling on ABC to take Jimmy Kimmel off the air, this time due to what Trump called low ratings. Here was how Jimmy Kimmel responded.

Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (44:23)

If incompetently presiding over not just one of but the lowest rating in history is the reason I should be fired. We should both be out of a job because we're not doing too good either.

Nicole Wallace (44:38)

We would like to associate ourselves with everything the great Meryl Streep had to say about Jimmy Kimmel. We'll stay on top of that story. One more break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful.

Angelo Carusone (44:54)

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Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (45:06)

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Angie Hicks / Angie.com Announcer (45:20)

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Angelo Carusone (45:22)

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