← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"A tone not worthy of a Facebook comment section"
00:41:46
Nicolle Wallace on Trump's hunger to punish career public servants who worked toward justice and protected the rule of law under Democratic and Republican administrations with jail time.
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A
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B
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D
Hi there everyone.
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E
Happy Thursday. It's four o' clock in rainy New York. Whereas President Barack Obama spoke frequently about how the arc of the moral universe would ultimately bend toward justice, and for his part, President Ronald Reagan, who spoke of an America as a shining city on the Hill, often said this, quote, freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. Donald J. Trump has taken to claiming on a near daily basis that a cadre of career public servants who worked toward justice and protected the rule of law under Democratic and Republican presidents and administrations should be jailed. Trump lashing out repeatedly at special counsel Jack Smith while traveling abroad, as well as other Department of Justice and FBI officials and leaders of watchdog groups in unhinged social media rants, some of them posted very late at night, very early in the morning, with a tone barely worthy of a Facebook comment section, much less pronouncements of policy from a president of the United States. In one rant posted on Wednesday, Donald Trump targeted our colleague and MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman, as well as fired FBI agent Walter Giardina. Giardina was pushed out of the FBI while he was caring for his dying wife. It's a move his supervisors called, quote, inexcusably cruel in a lawsuit they have brought against the Trump administration after they, too, were fired by Kash Patel, the agent. Giardino was fired because he had been the agent who arrested Trump ally and advisor Peter Navarro. That happened when Navarro was indicted on contempt of Congress charges for blowing off a subpoena from the January 6th select committee. Republican Senator Chuck Grassley also alleged, among other things, that Giardina had destroyed records on a laptop when assigned to the Mueller investigation. It's a charge that Giardina denies. In fact, he says he was never issued a laptop by Mueller or the Mueller investigation. Now Giardina is the target of the man with the world's largest megaphone who has been steadily beating the drum on accusations that the January 6 investigation was some sort of witch hunt. It was not. January 6th took place in full view of the public. It led to multiple criminal charges that were never tried against Donald Trump in a court of law because after the Supreme Court's immunity ruling, there was no trial. There was enough time to get to trial before he prevailed in the 2024 election. But even the right wing publication National Review isn't buying what Trump is selling on this particular topic. They write this, quote, the notion that there was something scandalous about the leadership at DOJ and the FBI approving an investigation into conduct that resulted in viable criminal charges is ridiculous. But facts be damned, Donald Trump has reoriented his government, all of it, his political movement, all of it, his allies in Congress, all of them and the Justice Department and FBI around his desires for retribution. That campaign threatens to leave all Americans less safe because instead of doing the things they're supposed to do to keep us safe, they're doing retribution. As Carol Lening writes today in the New York Times, quote, a deep and bipartisan bench of justice veterans say the department has reached a frightening tipping point. They warn that grave dangers now loom for all Americans without the real Department of Justice we have long taken for granted. Public servants predict malevolent actors can freely engage in crimes, knowing they will never face consequences. Since taking office January 20, Trump and his appointees have driven out or fired combined centuries worth of frontline expertise that will take decades to replace. Seasoned national security prosecutors and agents has sounded the alarm in our interviews. These departures leave us less prepared to stop the next terrorist attack or foreign states spying operation. The Trump administration pursuing Donald Trump's retribution and ticking off his enemies list at the expense of US national security is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI, MSNBC national security and intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg is here. He's also a fellow at Lawfare. Also joining me, New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush and my friend and colleague, MSNBC senior political analyst contributing host on Pod Save America and host of the New podcast, Runaway Country. Alex Wagner is here for the hour. Michael Feinberg, I start with you because you are one of those national security officials who, while we love being able to talk to you about these stories, I think we benefited probably more as a country having you inside the FBI. And I wonder what you make of what now is not a quirk or a bug, but a feature of Trump's presidency. A daily maligning of career FBI and Department of justice officials.
- [06:22]
F
It's morally horrifying. And as a more basic matter, it is not remotely grounded in fact. There is a misconception, whether inadvertent or purposeful, that the president keeps using where he seems to imply that FBI agents choose who to arrest and when to arrest somebody. It's important to remember that every single person associated with Trump's circle who was arrested and indicted during the first term or during the Biden term was done so by a grand jury of their peers. These are not unilateral FBI decisions. These are not DOJ decisions. These are decisions made by the citizenry of our country. So to say that it was an individual agent who brought Peter Navarro down or that it was solely Jack Smith or Merrick Garland who had Trump indicted is to allude the truth, which is that the defendants own communities are the ones who decided to charge them.
- [07:33]
E
And what does it say to the people left inside the FBI that this campaign of retribution continues long after people are fired, long after careers that I think most of you think you'll have for as long as you're interested in public service are abruptly ended by Donald Trump, that the abuse doesn't end, and he's rolling out names from 2017 that he attacked frequently that probably aren't known to a broader general public, but are characters in some of the right wing conspiracy theories that have festered for years. And these are people that have been out of the bureau and out of the department for years?
- [08:11]
F
Yeah, look, they're creating very powerful disincentives for people to work on politically sensitive cases. Unfortunately for our country, the politically sensitive cases are the most important ones for us to work because they're the ones that really provide guardrails and accountability for our democratic system. And I think it's worth noting here that a lot of the individuals who Trump names, yes, they worked in Democratic administrations, but they also worked under Republican leaders. You know, Andrew Weissman, Lisa Monaco. These are two people who worked at the FBI. Robert Mueller, who was as rock ribbed a Republican as you can think of. If you think of the traditional sort of northeastern southeastern conservative in American history. And you had to create an exemplar of that figure out of whole cloth. You would end up with Robert Mueller. So to say that the people who served under him were partisan warriors for the left is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
- [09:22]
E
Glenn Thrush, you write about another person who's sort of an arch type of exactly who you want on the line on the national security side. I have no idea what his politics are. But you wrote this about Mr. Giardina, quote, Giardina, who regards his FBI service as an extension of his military commitment, said, quote, it was unfathomable to see my entire life, which has been focused on family and the FBI, to be torn apart in an instant. By the time Grassley went public with his claims, Colleen Giardina, his wife's health had already been deteriorating. At times it seemed like her death and the end of his nearly two decade career were racing each other on parallel tracks. Her husband said Mr. Giardina's wife suffered an adverse reaction to chemotherapy and began to pace back and forth relentlessly as she became increasingly sick. After she was admitted to the hospital, Mr. Giardina asked a nurse to reserve a conference room for an interview with a congressional affairs office in hopes they would conduct a proper investigation to clear his name. They agreed to the meeting, then pulled out. He said it was a nightmare, Mr. Giardino recalled. Mr. Giardino was on the receiving end of a post attacking him from Donald Trump while on a trip. He didn't seem well rested. Maybe attacking Mr. Giardina is the reason.
- [10:46]
G
Look, it's no surprise that Peter Navarro, Donald Trump's trade advisor, sort of the architect of his tariff policy, has been telling anyone who would listen to him about all the depredations of Giardina in his case. In fact, Giardina was given a list of instructions. He is the guy who arrested Navarro, who was, by the way, convicted of a crime by a jury of his peers. And Giardina, apparently, from every telling of this incident, didn't do anything that he was not under instruction to do. So what Navarro's big issue is, and it has become a personal crusade for Peter Navarro to get this guy or to, or in his view, to hold this guy accountable. Essentially what Navarro has claimed is that he was treated disrespectfully, that Giardina created a public spectacle. All the reporting that we've been able to ascertain in my interview with Giardina is that that wasn't necessarily the case. He was essentially following instructions. And the point that everyone has made is. Is an accurate one, particularly when you're talking about the FBI, the level of discretion that they have in terms of what to investigate and how to investigate it. When you get to the level of line agent, as Giardina is, is relatively circumscribed. In my interview with Giardina, he said to me something which will resonate. He said that he had two big decisions to make every time he went on an investigative trip, and number one was which hotel he got to stay in, and number two is where he got to have dinner.
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E
Yeah. I mean, Alex, the point is. And look, some of this resonates with anyone in any job. Right. There's a chain of command. Some of this is specific to these institutions with such sort of outsized roles in protecting our communities and our national security. But this is how Jack Smith describes this agent. Mr. Giardino, let me show you this.
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F
There's an agent who worked on our case who served our country overseas, multiple combat tours, decades as an FBI agent, fired days after his wife died of cancer. People hear these stories. No one's going to think that's okay.
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C
So, yeah, I think they're reporting on that. Is that career, senior, career FBI people tried to get Cash Patel, the FBI director, to put off the decision, given his personal circumstances, and failed. And this most senior person at the FBI making that plea was then fired.
- [13:44]
F
Yeah. I mean, these are people, lawyers aside, these are people who put their lives on the line. And for them to be fired for stuff like this, I just don't see how anyone can hear those stories and not be moved by it.
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E
Not only is Trump not moved by it, he's literally continuing his attacks on that agent on social media, from abroad.
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D
Yeah. The treatment of the enemy as a subhuman is a hallmark of this administration. And I think it sort of begs the question of. Well, it gives rise to what we're seeing, I think, from people like Jack Smith who have heretofore been so reluctant to be part of the story, to express their own personal views, or to show people their hand, if you will, for obvious reasons. Right. And I was actually talking to Andrew Weisman about this on last week's podcast. There was. I think we have reached the tipping point here where people who are part of the firmament of government or part of the Department of Justice, which has been for so long a lockbox. Right. It's because it's supposed to exist outside of politics and therefore exists outside of the political narrative. People are understanding that in this moment, when they are facing an unprecedented assault that threats to. Threatens to destroy the doj, metaphorically, like Trump's bulldozers destroy the East Wing. They have to come out and tell their own stories. They have to put their humanity, they have to put their traumas on the front burner. Because otherwise the dehumanization and the ridicule and the targeting and the focus destruction of their lives continues at the hand of Donald Trump. And it's a really uncomfortable position, I think, but it's important, and that's where we are. If you are part of this sort of pro democracy movement, it has nothing to do with being a Democrat. You have to, I think, begin to sacrifice things you never thought you were going to have to sacrifice.
- [15:32]
E
Well, and beyond that, if you are part of an institution and your reason for staying quiet is because it's not in the ethos of that institution. I'm thinking about the Department of Justice, the FBI and the military. Those institutions won't be there if you don't speak out in this window. And I wonder what you think the rationale is for Merrick Garland and Lisa Monaco and Chris Wray to stay silent as Donald Trump maligns their rank and file workforce.
- [16:00]
D
Well, that's. We're. See, I really feel like between these kind of big moments we're having electorally, where there's Proposition 50 in California and there's the government shutdown and you're seeing Jack Smith speak publicly, I do think there is a dawning realization that and embrace of the idea that Trump is really trying to destroy democracy and it may not exist in 2026 or 2028. And it is. And there is a pivot happening inside. I don't even want to call it the Democratic tent, the tent that encompasses anybody that cares about liberal democracy and the integrity of institutions, that the order of operations has to be different. And there are going to be some people who are late to that party, some people who don't like the idea of fighting fire with fire on redistricting. So some people who don't like coming out of the woodwork of the institution and doing things that sound aggressive or partisan or at least critical of this administration. Merrick Garland, we're talking to you. But the moment is now. There's not gonna be anything left if they stay silent.
- [17:03]
E
Yeah, I mean, Glenn, you cover the building. The people who come and go between administrations used to just be political appointees, because what Trump has fleshed out is anyone who was loyal to the Constitution and the rule of law and not Trump There is a much larger pool of people and some of them are speaking out. I mean, we're with Michael because he left the FBI and wrote an incredible piece describing the new leadership and is giving voice. And I hear from a lot of people who don't want to speak out themselves, but they're really glad that he is. What explains the leaders not speaking out in protection of their own rank and file, their own and women on the field who are not safe, they are not immune, they're being maligned by Donald Trump with the biggest megaphone in the world?
- [17:55]
G
I think it's a really good question. Look, I think it's very characteristic of Merrick Garland, who is arguably. You know, I hate to use the word irony because it's always ironical to use the word irony, but I think it is.
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E
Like, actually I was thinking because it's dead, right? It died like four years ago.
- [18:13]
G
I don't even know what the hell it means anymore. But I think Merrick Garland is the least small p political Attorney general you could possibly have. So it is therefore ironic that he would be accused of being this master of puppets on political stuff. If anything, he was utterly oblivious of the potential political implications of what he was doing. And a counter argument, Carol Lennox thesis is that things moved kind of slowly at the Department of Justice. And had they moved more expeditiously, a conviction might have taken place earlier. But there's a counterargument also to be made as to whether or not, and I think it's a serious counterargument as to whether or not the actual decision to move ahead, particularly with the J6 case, given the likelihood it would have been struck down, was perhaps a questionable one. All these things are very much open for debate. But the one thing I would say is Merrick Garland wasn't going to speak publicly about it then and he's not going to speak publicly about it now. Neither is Monaco. So I think that's an entirely legitimate question. It is their reputations that are being impugned. They are being accused of criminality. And I think there is a natural circumspection they are playing by a rule book that they grew up with from the 70s, 80s and 90s in the post Watergate era that you shut up and let your court filings speak for you. But I think one of the really interesting features of that very interesting Andrew Weissman interview with Jack Smith was Smith admitting, though he didn't really come up with a solution, admitting that they need to do a better job in explaining themselves publicly. And that gets to the root of the fight that Smith is now having with both the House and Senate. They want him to testify behind closed doors. Smith is saying, no, I want to have the opportunity to express myself publicly.
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E
All right, no one's going anywhere. Everybody sticks around. And when we all come back, take two. Trump's Justice Department tries again to rewrite these events of January six by literally erasing the existence of facts that we all saw take place with our own eyes. We'll show you what that looks like next. Also ahead, how Donald Trump's food stamp cuts and freeze are hurting his own voters first and foremost. As we hit the 30 day mark of the federal government shutdown, we'll look at who is the most vulnerable to food insecurity and what they're saying about the Trump administration doing very little to alleviate their pain. And later in the broadcast, a potentially dangerous escalation by Donald Trump and the Pentagon. New reporting on preparations for creating military riot control units in every state. What that looks like and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today.
- [21:04]
B
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- [21:35]
A
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E
Donald Trump's efforts to rewrite the history of January 6th runs so deep through his veins as well as through the Justice Department that you can't even mention a criminal defendant's participation in the attack on the Capitol if it happened in front of cameras. As we first reported yesterday, two career prosecutors were put on leave from the Department of Justice. Their sin was filing a sentencing memo for pardoned January 6th insurrectionist Taylor Taranto, which mentioned Taranto's history as a criminal for his involvement in the riot. That's why he was pardoned. Prosecutors were recommending a 27 month sentence for him on charges separate from what Taranto was pardoned by Donald Trump for. Those charges relate to Taranto showing up at President Barack Obama's house in June of 2023 with two guns, hundreds of rounds of ammunition and a machete knife. The suspension of the prosecutors apparently not enough, though. The Justice Department then posted a revised, rewritten, whitewashed sentencing memo seeking the exact same sentence, but gone from it, any of the facts or the mention of the January 6th insurrection. What is also strikingly absent from the new revised sentencing memo is the mention of Donald Trump's role in Taranto's crimes. They were mentioned in the first memo, the one that got them suspended. On June 29, 2023, then former President Donald Trump published on a social media platform. The proposal reported address of former President Barack Obama. Taranto then reposted that address on the same platform and thereafter started live streaming from his van on his YouTube channel. Taranto broadcast footage as he drove through the Kalorama neighborhood in Washington, D.C. claiming he was searching for tunnels that he believed would provide him access to the private residences of certain high profile individuals, including former President Barack Obama. At the sentencing of Taranto today, the suspended were inside the courtroom. The prosecutors and the judge overseeing the hearing heaped praise on them, saying they were among the best attorneys who have appeared before him. The judge then went ahead and sentenced Taranto to 21 months. Anyway, we're back with Michael Glenn and Alex. Michael, it's a twisted and tormented tale and I wonder what you make of the fact that the facts were whitewashed out of a sentencing memo. Where exactly does that place us?
- [25:01]
F
You know, it was a fairly common occurrence in the 30s and 40s for Joseph Stalin to erase pictures of people who had fallen into political disfavor. You know, in Orwellian instinct to whitewash history and remove facts that were inconvenient for the rulers. I fail to see how this is any different. And you know, at the risk of reiterating something or foot stomping that we already covered, this really ties in to what you were talking about. A Few minutes ago when you mentioned the silence of former DOJ executives. Everybody in a position of leadership at doj, at the FBI, took an oath to the Constitution and implicitly promised to protect that their institution and the people who work there. The people who work there, like these two prosecutors who are now presumably jobless, they're suffering on a daily basis. Their lives are being ruined. And the silence of the former FBI director or the former Attorney general or the former deputy Attorney general in these circumstances is really morally indefensible and inexcusable. We need to realize that the house is on fire and the people who care about the family inside of it need to start acting.
- [26:30]
E
Michael, what do you hear from people who refuse to do what you've decided to do?
- [26:39]
F
It's a very pragmatic decision. I don't keep in touch with a lot of people who are morally okay with what is happening to our institution, but they have mortgages, they have families, they have tuition payments for college students. They might have medical needs. They don't have other options. That's why it's so important that people who do have other options and who do have fallbacks, take the chance to speak up when they can. You know, if you were the director of the FBI or a senior DOJ official, chances are you were also probably a multimillion dollar attorney at some point. In the private sector, you can afford to stick your neck out a little on behalf of those who can't.
- [27:28]
E
Yeah. And if you're Christopher Wray, you're the one that signed off on the court approved search of Mar A Lago. If you're Christopher Wray, you were the FBI director that ordered the investigations into the January 6th insurrection that took place on live TV. If you're Christopher Wray, you testified before Congress on September 20th, 2020, saying that the greatest threat to the homeland is now domestic violent extremism. And in that bucket, the largest group is racially motivated. And within that bucket, it's white supremacy. I mean, you're the guy that set the policy that Donald Trump is now seeking retribution against individual agents over. What? I mean, is there any contact with him at all? Any desire, any instinct, any remorse about not defending the agents of the FBI.
- [28:17]
F
So I can't speak to what Christopher Wray is thinking or feeling, but I talk to a lot of agents on a regular basis, and they feel abandoned, not just by Christopher Wray, but by every senior executive who's been pushed out or left and is not speaking up. There is a real sense of betrayal and a feeling of being let down by the individuals who claimed to be there to protect them and to lead them.
- [28:50]
E
And what if I could just press you on the DOJ side? Other than wanting to protect her own corporate job, is the understanding of why people like Lisa Monaco aren't defending all the prosecutors who've been pushed out?
- [29:04]
F
I genuinely haven't the slightest idea. I will just say I've talked to a lot of those prosecutors, and I could tell you their lives are demonstrably worse than Lisa Monaco's would be if she stuck her neck out and spoke up.
- [29:21]
E
Glenn Thrush, again, these are folks that you cover. What is your sense as to whether or not any of them have a line that could be crossed? Because it seems that every line that people who say they care about the department or the bureau has already been crossed.
- [29:41]
G
I think they don't want to be targeted.
- [29:43]
E
I mean, I think they're already targeted. I mean, they're like, with what? With a fake prosecution? I mean, call Jim Comey or Tish James. It's already happened with a mean tweet. It happens every night.
- [29:54]
G
I mean, this is their psychology. I think they don't like being targeted. I think when Trump mentions a lot of these people, they want to keep their head down and not respond because they think it'll draw them more fire. It is the mistake that everybody has made in terms of confronting Donald Trump since 2015. I saw it in the. I have to just keep hearkening back to the first few Republican debates of the 2015 cycle, where I was just sitting there and watching guys like Chris Christie, who, if you walk up to Chris Christie and said, hello, he would contradict what you were saying at high volume. And then you watch Chris Christie in a room with Donald Trump, and it was as if somebody had dropped in some sort of a tranquilizer pellet into the room. Right? It was, like, amazing. Donald Trump has this capacity to cow and mesmerize.
- [30:43]
E
It's just.
- [30:44]
G
It's like. And I think people truly believe, like, he said something about me, and now it's time for me to hide. That is, I haven't spoken to either of these two folks or any of the senior officials, but there. I think there is a mentality that if out of sight, out of mind. But I do want to add one other thing. These guys are no longer in power. They no longer have a public responsibility to defend them, to defend their actions. They can do what they want. The private citizens. What I want to tell you is Pam Bondi has not had A press conference in God knows how long. Cash Patel hasn't spoken, I think to either a, a non friend or family member on television in quite some time. They only do interviews with Fox. They do interviews with Oan. They do not submit themselves to the scrutiny of journalists. And I think we should be just, I think as strident in calling for them to be held publicly accountable and answer our questions as we do people who used to work in the building.
- [31:46]
E
It's an important point. But they've also shown that they're out of the chain of command in terms of prosecutorial decisions. Trump or ordered Halligan to indict. Yeah, they've been tranquilized in the words of Glenn Thrush.
- [31:57]
D
Glenn Thrush, but to that point though, too, Trump has robbed all of us of the language that we used to use to describe our attacks on whether it's witch hunt, whether it's weaponization of the Justice Department, whether it's mob or riot. He's changed that language cuz he's adopted it as his own and he's weaponized it. And that really changes the conversation you can have about any of this.
- [32:22]
E
Well, and it also divides. It's the dividing line between who you're talking to. Yeah, because people with eyes and ears know that what happened on January 6th was a mob of Trump supporters, but because on Earth 2 it means something else. Michael Feinberg, I know I thank you every time, but I really, I thank you for speaking out, for using your voice, for making the choice that you made. Thank you so much. Glenn Thrush. Thank you for all the important reporting you've done and your contributions today. Alex sticks around to stay up to date on all the latest legal stories we cover around here. Scan the QR code on your screen to have the Deadline Legal newsletter from our very own Jordan Rubin delivered straight to your inbox every Friday. Quick break for us. When we come back. A judge today could order the Trump administration to keep food assistance flowing. The judge were at a point where this is what emergency funds are for. A look at where the suffering hits the heart after the break. We have been seeing historic numbers, been breaking records every day this week. People are starting to panic. There are people that, you know, they're only bringing in $1,000 a month or and they still have kids and they really don't know how they're going to.
- [33:35]
D
Make end this year.
- [33:36]
E
Everything's been so overwhelming, especially now with the EBT affecting us. Groceries in general are not the same as they used to be. And so it's become too. What do I do now? How do I support and feed my children?
- [33:57]
F
I honestly am trying to come up with alternatives.
- [34:07]
E
I don't know what I'm going to do. Don't look away because you may not have recognized any of those faces or voices, but it's happening everywhere. It's happening in all of our communities, happening in all of our neighborhoods, happening in every state of this country. That's a window or glimpse into the growing and coming food insecurity and hunger crisis in America right now. And happening right now is that Donald Trump is refusing to tap into the emergency funds to keep any food assistance programs flowing to those people, to those families so they can feed their kids. It is just a part of the negligence and indifference that is a hallmark of the Trump administration when it comes to food insecurity and hunger in America. After slashing funding for food banks earlier in the year, canceling 94 million pounds of food aid, as well as cutting $186 billion from SNAP, leading to what one hunger nonprofit CEO calls a quote, perfect storm for food assistance programs. And it is a self inflicted, manufactured crisis designed to hurt a lot of the very same people who voted for Donald Trump and to hurt them and their families the hardest. Time magazine reports this quote. In the 30 states that Trump carried last year, 25 of them were more reliant on SNAP than the national average. While the national average of SNAP recipients stands at 12%. An analysis from the center for Policy and Budget Priorities shows that deep red states like Louisiana, home to House Speaker Mike Johnson, surpasses that with 18%. South Dakota, home to Senate Majority Leader John Thune, has a smaller total role, but 70% of it is for families with children. In 29 of the 30 Trump states, the proportion of SNAP recipients with kids passes the national average of 62%. That total share under 18 nationally, that's 20 million kids. Joining us, MSNBC political analyst, host of the Bulwark podcast. Tim Miller is here. Alex is still here. So, Tim Miller, I know food stamps is like a 90s era right wing racist smear, but snap, which is sort of the new and EBT this is food assistance, knows no partisan affiliation. If anything, it disproportionately benefits households in Trump voting counties and districts. And it feeds a whole lot of kids who don't have any responsibility for any of the political decisions that adults make.
- [36:41]
C
Yeah, it's this contradiction of MAGA Trumpism, right, where Trump has done better with and worked for the votes of lower income working class folks of all races. But Particularly working class whites and red states in America. And the rhetoric has shifted a little bit from the McCain Romney days to try to appeal to those folks, to say the least. But the policies are harmful to them. And this is just this snap. The expiration of SNAP or the fact that they're not going to continue funding SNAP during this shutdown beginning this weekend, I think is most acute example of this where, you know, if the, if the party had fully switched to being a multiracial, multi object, working class party like they pay lip service to, this would be an emergency right now. They'd be like, our own voters are literally going to go hungry beginning this weekend. You know, we need to service them. And meanwhile, Donald Trump's in China or in Korea getting a, you know, Burger King Happy Meal crown from the head of South Korea. And Congress isn't even in session. Right. Like they're not doing anything. And so I think that this is just a, very, obviously it's a human catastrophe and tragedy if this doesn't get fixed in the next couple of days. But it also just is a very stark demonstration of just how this kind of MAGA populism is a lot of lip service and not a lot, not a lot of action. And I think you're seeing it real time also in the states where in Colorado, Jared Polis and some other states governors, mostly Democratic governors, are working to try to patch this right now. And in some of the red states, it's not gonna get patched.
- [38:19]
E
I'm gonna try to find the Burger King crown because there was the crown and there was some wandering that Donald Trump did. We'll try to find both those things. I also wanna show you what the food aid deliveries look like that have been canceled. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be right back. We're back with Tim and Alex. So, Alex, these are the food deliveries canceled by the Trump administration. 2,300 gallons of milk, 29,000 pounds of turkey breast, 1200 gallons of milk. In Kentucky, 270,000 eggs. Didn't we just have an election where the price of eggs was determinative? These are all orders cancelled by Donald Trump.
- [39:02]
D
There is a reason that 23 Democratic attorneys general have sued the Trump administration. They have the money for all of this. They have reserve emergency funds for food assistance. And they are making up a totally ridiculous argument about legal red tape. And today this is the good news. I guess if there is good news in the story today, a federal district judge in Massachusetts who's hearing the case has signaled she's going to to force the government to release those funds. Those funds exist for a reason. The American government does not starve the American people. If they choose to go forward in this draconian, I guess, partisan sort of strategy to literally steal food from the mouths of children to make a point. It will be the greatest food crisis since the Great Depression. The court system isn't going to let that happen. And Democrats, both AGs and governors across the country are not gonna let that happen. And right now it sounds like there may be some relief in sight. But nobody should forget we started this hour talking about President Trump's dehumanization of people at the Justice Department. It's not just people who are his public critics or people who seek to hold him accountable. It's anybody who stands in his way. It's people who live in states that he carried by double digits, who are MAGA supporters he is taking from. He is starving their children because it benefits him. Everyone is collateral damage. And everybody should remember who is on the side of nutrition, of food, of the basic humanity of the American citizen right here. And it is the Democrats.
- [40:35]
E
Yeah, I mean, Tim, we talk about the guardrails around Trump as the people who didn't let him do awful things. They also seem like the people who didn't let him do insanely stupid things politically.
- [40:46]
C
Yeah, I don't. Maybe it's because he's a lame duck, God willing, maybe it's just because he has rid himself of all the savage people around him. But yeah, there is not a lot of interest in stopping Trump from harming his own political interests. With the occasional tacit exception of Scott Besant around the tariffs, just trying to prevent the worst from happening, not trying to stop him from doing, doing it at all because there's. He's already done a ton of damage with the tariffs. And this all goes all the way back to Doge and the slashing of a lot of the programs that were in place during the Biden administration. I mean, this snap crisis comes on top of. I remember, I forget exactly what the program was, but I was called by a local farmer here in Louisiana who did fresh foods. And you think that the Maha administration would want to continue the economic of fresh food funding for food banks that was slashed like back in the spring. And so like their effort to grow lettuces for food banks here was cut. And so this recent food bank crisis also isn't coming out of nowhere.
- [41:49]
E
The inconsistencies with Maha is worth like another hour does need to get one more break, Stick around. We'll all be back on the other side.
- [42:00]
C
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E
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C
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E
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C
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E
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C
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- [42:29]
B
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- [43:01]
A
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- [43:33]
E
Rebecca with Tim and Alex. Tim, we talk about a lot of things that are intractable, like the weaponization of the Department of Justice, the militarization of our cities. Those seem like places where there are not a lot of checks. People starving in American states and cities represented by people that are in the MAGA coalition. Seems like something that will come to a head. Just play this out for me over the next few days and weeks.
- [43:58]
C
Look, I mean, over the next week, people are gonna not get the money that they need to get food, and food banks aren't gonna be able to satisfy the demand. And so senators and congressmen are getting calls from people who aren't usually necessarily engaged in politics or who cross party lines. So this stuff absolutely is going to come to a head. I expect that you would think that the Republicans would feel like they finally need to come to the table in this shutdown sometime in the next week. And I think it's part of a broader issue where there's economic struggles right now across a lot of red America, especially in Iowa and farm country. And I do think the heat will turn up on this in a way that it doesn't maybe for our institutional norms.
- [44:38]
E
And to be clear, nobody is wishing this on anybody, but this is what single party rule looks like. Republicans maga in charge of everything. And so we are literally on television talking about Americans going hungry in the year 2025. It's some sick. You know what, Tim Miller, Alex Wagner, thank you both so much for being here. If you want more Alex, and we all want more Alex, she's now now got a substance. How the hell with Alex Wagner. Which is exactly what our conversations turn to in all the breaks. How the hell, what the hell, the hell.
- [45:13]
D
Four letter words on that sub.
- [45:15]
E
And the podcast is so good. All the, all your podcasting. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here. One more break. And after that, a potentially new dangerous escalation in Donald Trump's attempt to turn the military into his personal political police force. The next hour of deadline. White House starts after quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [45:36]
A
Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. And for decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. Get all your jobs done well@angie.com.