“A tragedy of almost incomprehensible cruelty”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House — “A tragedy of almost incomprehensible cruelty”

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC
Air Date: August 27, 2025

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Overview

This episode opens with breaking coverage and reaction to a mass shooting at a Catholic church in Minneapolis, marking a devastating start to the school year. Two children are dead, and many more are injured after a gunman opened fire during a mass aimed at students. Nicolle Wallace leads an urgent and emotional discussion with legal, medical, activist, and political voices to unpack the aftermath, examine the broader context of gun violence in America, and reflect on responses at the community and national levels—including from the Pope.

Later, the conversation pivots to the political climate under the second Trump administration, the deployment of the National Guard in Washington, D.C., and concerns over the normalization of a militarized domestic response to crime. The host and guests dissect the legal, ethical, and political implications of these developments.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Minneapolis Church Shooting: Facts and Eyewitness Accounts

[01:01]–[03:11] Nicolle Wallace:

• Wallace reports on the tragic mass shooting: two children (ages 8 and 10) killed, 17 injured (most between ages 6–15, three adults in their 80s).
• Shooter armed with multiple guns, barricaded doors, died by suicide; left a manifesto.
• Focus on uncertainty around motive and the scope of threat to other faith communities.

[03:11]–[05:12] Mary McCord (Legal Analyst):

• Investigation ongoing; caution against speculation or scapegoating without evidence.
  • Quote: “Until we have a motive, it keeps people really on tinderhooks… This is not the time to jump to conclusions.” (04:29)

[05:33]–[08:56] Weston Halsney (Child Survivor, Age 10):

• Vivid, emotional eyewitness account from a child in the church who survived.
• Describes practicing active shooter drills, feeling gunpowder on his neck, and being saved by a friend who was shot while shielding him.
• Quote: “My friend laid on top of me and saved me, but he got hit.” (07:18)

[09:07] Nicolle Wallace’s Response:

• Reflects on the new reality for children in America, highlighting the extraordinary bravery and trauma.

2. Public Health and Preparedness After Mass Shootings

[09:32]–[11:29] Angela Farrell Zapata (Moms Demand Action):

• Laments normalization of gun violence and the grief for survivors, calls for both prayer and action.
  • Quote: “This public health crisis … now is a leading cause of death for young people … But I think first and foremost, I just want to send my heart out to the victims.” (09:32)
• Advocates community organizing and legislative change.

[11:29]–[16:57] Dr. Ven Gupta (Medical Contributor):

• Emphasizes trauma for medical responders and the importance of hospital readiness; underscores that survival rates are, tragically, often due to luck and improved trauma care.
  • Quote: “There is a lot of moral injury that's happening and certainly providers experience that.” (12:11)
• Urges blood donation and public training in basic life support (CPR, bleeding control).
  • Quote: “We’re not going to see any meaningful change on gun laws likely for the next few years. So here we are talking about blood. Here we are talking about basic life support. It matters.” (16:33)

3. The Ripple Effects of Mass Trauma

[17:31]–[18:43] Amy Klobuchar (via Interview):

• Shares a parent’s story: children hiding, a student having to tell a parent their child was shot.
• The host notes the cascading trauma for entire communities, not just victims.

[18:43]–[20:29] Mary McCord:

• Points to generational trauma and the frustrating political-legal battle over weapons bans.
  • Quote: “We have an entire generation now of children who are now probably entering their young adulthood who've been living with active shooter drills.” (18:43)
• Calls out the administration for focusing on National Guard deployments instead of gun law reforms.

[20:49]–[22:52] Natasha Korecki (NBC National Reporter at Scene):

• Reports on-intense parental fear, confusion, grief, and the long-lasting psychological impact on communities—neighborhoods, parents, witnesses, and even bystanders.
  • Quote: “These were little kids, some were even pre-K … Dads carrying their daughters on their shoulders, moms just clinging to their kids … It was just very intense and very emotional.” (21:00)

4. Political Barriers and Public Outrage

[22:52]–[25:25] Zapata:

• Explains bipartisan parental fear; describes the gun industry’s political power and public frustration with inaction.
  • Quote: “The bottom line is that we must do something different. … This is not about sides. These are saving our children's lives, saving our future.” (23:26)
• Calls out the prevalence of “weapons of war” and the need for common-sense reforms.

[25:25]–[27:19] Pope Leo’s Statement (via Spokesperson):

• Direct, emotional international response:
  • Quote: “You cannot put into words the gravity, the tragedy, or the absolute pain of this situation. … Don't just say this is about thoughts and prayers right now. These kids were literally praying.” (26:14)

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Transition: The Trump Administration, Militarized Policing, and Crime

5. National Guard Deployment in Washington D.C.

[29:22]–[31:47] Nicolle Wallace and Sam Stein (Bulwark/MSNBC):

• Wallace critiques Trump’s claim that he can deploy troops anywhere, questions normalization of armed domestic force.
• Stein outlines the inefficiency and optics of National Guard troops performing police and custodial duties in D.C., done while the city’s budget and essential services were being cut.
  • Quote: “They're doing custodial. … This is terribly inefficient, and it's having this kind of emotional effect on the city where a lot of people are freaking out.” (32:19)
• Alleges targeting of undocumented immigrants exceeds the purported fight against crime.

6. Prosecutions, Overreach, and Judicial Pushback

[33:36]–[36:52] Wallace and McCord:

• Discusses failed attempts to secure indictments in non-violent D.C. cases (i.e., sandwich thrown at federal agent), seen as prosecutorial overreach and grand juries rejecting excessive charges.
  • Quote: “This says to me, this is a grand jury that is essentially nullifying. … most of the time, something like this would not be [charged]. It would be a misdemeanor at most.” (33:52)
• Notes citizen grand jurors are alert to government overreach and the escalation of federal presence.

7. The Political Narrative Around Militarized Policing

[38:17]–[42:28] Wallace, Stein, “Josh Burkin” (Republican Congressman), and McCord:

• Wallace challenges Republican normalization of military on American streets:
  • Quote: “No Republican is for military on the streets. What Republicans are for are more cops. … This sliding toward the normalization of Trump's on solid ground is absolute horse doo doo.” (41:43)
• Stein: Even in D.C. (with unique federal status), deploying troops is dangerous political ground—more so in regular cities.
• Ominous shift in Trump’s rhetoric: “I'm not a dictator, but people want a dictator.” (paraphrased, 42:28)
• All agree: No mandate for military deployment; risk of alienating the public and crossing a dangerous Rubicon.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Weston Halsney (10-year-old survivor):
  “My friend laid on top of me and saved me, but he got hit.” (07:18)
• Angela Farrell Zapata:
  “This can't be normal … This is almost like a normal. This can't be normal.” (09:32)
• Dr. Ven Gupta:
  “I'm here now on your show telling folks across the country to donate blood because that's what Hennepin county needs. But that's what every single community that may face this will need. … These things do save lives.” (12:11)
• Pope Leo’s Spokesperson:
  “Don't just say this is about thoughts and prayers right now. These kids were literally praying… These are kids that should be learning with their friends… should be able to go to school or church in peace.” (26:14)
• Mary McCord:
  “We have an entire generation now of children… who've been living with active shooter drills.” (18:43)
• Nicolle Wallace:
  “No Republican is for military on the streets…. This sliding toward the normalization of Trump's on solid ground is absolute horse doo doo. … No Republican has ever been for active duty troops on the streets of an American city ever.” (41:43)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:01] Coverage of the Minneapolis church shooting
• [03:11] Law enforcement/legal perspective from Mary McCord
• [05:33] Child survivor Weston Halsney’s account
• [09:32] Gun violence and activism with Angela Farrell Zapata
• [11:29] Medical/system response with Dr. Ven Gupta
• [18:43] Trauma and policy with Mary McCord
• [20:49] Natasha Korecki reports from the scene
• [23:26] Angela Farrell Zapata on public will for reform
• [25:25] Reaction from the Pope’s spokesperson
• [29:22] National Guard and Trump administration response
• [33:52] Legal and prosecutorial overreach discussion
• [38:17] Debate over militarization/political fallout
• [41:43] Nicolle Wallace’s closing critique on normalization of military force

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Tone and Language

• The language remains urgent, emotional, and factual, mirroring the gravity of the events.
• Interviewees share firsthand emotional testimony and professional insight, fostering a somber but determined call for action and accountability.
• The political analysis is direct and unflinching, notably in rejecting attempts to normalize militarized federal response and calling out political inertia on gun safety.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a powerful, multifaceted response to a fresh national tragedy, weaving together eyewitness testimony, expert analysis, and calls for reform. It underscores the normalization of catastrophe for American children, the resilience and action needed in the face of a paralyzed political system, and the dangers of authoritarian drift in the national response to crime. The voices are united in their grief, frustration, and insistence that better is possible—and necessary.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay, that no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.

[Nicole Wallace]

The second Trump administration has gone to.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

Unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail] hi there, everyone.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sad day. You've been listening to Officials in Minnesota provide an update on a devastating and tragic shooting in Minneapolis earlier today. Tragically, two children ages 8 and 10 are dead. At least 17 more people have been injured. We learned just now, though, quote, they are all expected to survive. It happened after a gunman armed with a rifle, a shotgun and a pistol targeted a church that was holding a mass for the young students at the start of a brand new school year. The Minneapolis police chief saying just a couple minutes ago that among the injured, 14 of them are between the ages of 6 and 15. Three of the injured are adults in their 80s who were attending Mass. All of the remaining victims are expected to survive, as we just said. According to Police, at around 8:30am this morning, the gunman approached the church where he began shooting through windows on the side, hitting and worshippers sitting in pews. Police say that they believe the shooter barricaded at least two doors in the church to make it difficult for anyone inside to escape. The shooter, who acted alone, died from a self inflicted gunshot. Officials say he left a manifesto on YouTube. Today's tragedy is where we start today with MSNBC medical contributor Dr. Ven Gupta. Also joining us, the executive director of Moms Demand Action, Angela Farrell Zapata, and former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the Department of Justice. MSNBC legal analyst Mary McCord is here. Mary, let me first ask you with your law enforcement ears and hat on, what you heard from the police chief there about both the sort of disposition of an examination into motive, the safety, I think, which is on the minds of all parents of other kids in school, especially Catholic schools or schools associated with faith institutions and where the questions remain?

[Mary McCord]

Yeah, unfortunately, because they are reviewing the manifesto, but we're not providing any details of it, at least at this press conference. It's unclear what the motive was. And of course, that's what the police chief himself said. That's what, of course, so many of us want to know. And it's not just because that could direct the course of what kind of the investigation this is. Of course, the shooter is dead, so there won't be a prosecution of the shooter. But how we think about this, is this an act of domestic terrorism for. Based on ideological, political purposes, is it a hate crime? But it's also so important for the reasons you indicated, because other congregations, particularly Catholic congregations, need to be prepared. Is this something that's being directed at Catholic churches, Catholic communities, Catholic schools, or is this something that is broader than that? And so that's why getting in right away and executing the search warrants that the police chief mentioned could also help elucidate what the motive was here. And until we have a motive, it keeps people really on tinderhooks trying to figure out exactly what they need to be worried about. And again, I would also say this is not the time to jump to conclusions about the shooter.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Mary McCord]

What his ideological views might have been, what his own personal situation was. And this is the time where, unfortunately, Americans have a habit on social media of speculating about things and sometimes vilifying communities and making assumptions about communities who might be responsible before we have any information that would indicate who is responsible or whether they're part of any particular ideological or other community. So I think right now it's unsatisfying, but we need to just wait, not jump to conclusions, and see what is revealed through these search warrants once they're executed and through a further examination of the manifesto.

[Nicole Wallace]

One thing we do have, and tragically, this has become a tradition of covering these tragedies and that is eyewitness testimony. This is a 10 year old, in his own words, about what happened today.

[Weston Halsney]

It was like shots fired. And then we kind of like got under the pews. It kind of. They shot through the. The stained glass windows, I think, and it was really scary.

[Josh Burkin]

Yeah. What did you do after that?

[Weston Halsney]

Well, we waited like 10 to five minutes. I don't really know. And then we. We went to the gym and then the doors locked just to make sure he didn't come. And we waited in the gym for more news. And everyone was okay? Most people who are.

[Nicole Wallace]

Your friend.

[Weston Halsney]

My friend got hit in the back.

[Josh Burkin]

Did he Go to the hospital?

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah, he went to the hospital.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

What went through your mind when you saw that?

[Weston Halsney]

I was super scared for him, but I think now he's okay.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

Yeah.

[Josh Burkin]

Did you get reunited with your parents?

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah. My mom was waiting outside of the. The church when it happened.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

Yeah.

[Natasha Correcky]

What was it like, seeing her?

[Weston Halsney]

I was super happy because, like, I was scared that I wasn't gonna see her because I didn't know what was happening really. I was just in shock.

[Josh Burkin]

Was it kind of. Was it behind you where it was happening, or in front of you? Just kind of.

[Weston Halsney]

It was, like, right beside me. I was, like, two seats away from the stained glass windows, so they were, like. The shots were, like, right next to me? Yeah.

[Josh Burkin]

You went under the pew after that happened?

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah.

[Josh Burkin]

That's what everyone tried to do.

[Weston Halsney]

I think I got, like, gunpowder on my neck. Yeah.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

When you heard the shots, what went through your head?

[Weston Halsney]

I was like. The first one, I was like, what is that? I thought it was just something. Then I heard it again. I just ran under the pew, and then I covered my head. My friend Victor, like, saved me, though, because he laid on top of me, but he got hit.

[Nicole Wallace]

Your friend laid on top of you?

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah. And he got hit.

[Josh Burkin]

Is this something that you practiced before?

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah, we practice it, like, every month or. I don't know, but yeah, we practice. We've never practiced it in the. In the church, though. Only in school, so it was way different.

[Josh Burkin]

Was your mom super happy to see you?

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah.

[Josh Burkin]

Give you a big hug.

[Mary McCord]

What was that hug like?

[Weston Halsney]

I just felt, like, relieved, kinda. Yeah, I was very happy.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

You're really brave, you know that?

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah.

[Josh Burkin]

Did you have any brothers and sisters there, or was it just you?

[Weston Halsney]

Oh, my brother's in the sophomore year of dsl. He used to go to Enunciation. He got out early because of it.

[Josh Burkin]

You guys were at, like, the mass that they do at the beginning of school.

[Weston Halsney]

And then it was, like, maybe, like, three minutes in the first shot fired. And then the police were really good because they showed up really quick.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

Yeah.

[Josh Burkin]

And did everybody try to make you feel safe?

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah.

[Josh Burkin]

But it has to be probably the scariest thing of your life.

[Weston Halsney]

Yeah. It was super scary.

[Mary McCord]

What do you want to say to.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

Your friend who helped protect you?

[Weston Halsney]

He's really brave, and I hope he's good in the hospital.

[Josh Burkin]

What do you want to say to everyone that had to go to the hospital?

[Weston Halsney]

I hope you're okay, and I'm praying for you.

[Nicole Wallace]

I've seen a lot of things. I've never seen that. That was Weston, Halsney, Angela Weston, I think described this better than anyone ever has and ever could. Quote, I think I got gunpowder on my neck. My friend laid on top of me and saved me, but he got hit. To be a child in America in 2025.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

Yeah. You know, first of all, Weston, what a brave young man he was, even being in front of cameras. I am a mother of four and my two youngest are very close to the ages of the two lives were stolen today. And I took them to school this morning and, you know, then hours later hear about this tragedy. And it's unfortunate that this public health crisis and this country that now is a leading cause of death for young people. This is almost like a normal. This can't be normal. There's so much that we should be doing for this. But I think first and foremost, I just want to send my heart out to the victims and the survivors of this tragedy that have directly impacted the community that surrounds it. And as a person of faith, myself, I am praying, but I'm praying and I'm also acting. I'm praying because we need to stand up and do better. Our children coming back from summer break, coming into days of the start of the new school year, excited to see friends thinking about back to school nights or field trips, and now parents to think about bearing children. The burden that is on our children now. They're so accustomed to these active shooter drills and this happening, it's unforgivable. And so I am just waiting to hear more. But we're going to continue at Moms demand action in every town for gun safety and students demand action to do everything that we can to make sure that there are solutions. This is not just an act of mother Nature. We actually can do some common sense things and take measures that will help to protect our communities. But this is absolutely devastating to hear that this happened today. But unfortunately, this is another day in America and the way we're seeing our children go to school, walking through neighborhoods, it's just unacceptable.

[Nicole Wallace]

Dr. Gupta, to have so many injured and all of them expected to live is a rare bright spot in, as I said, a lot of tragedies like this that I have covered. Just talk about. It's pretty macabre, but because of the amount of shootings in America, a lot of the medicine has evolved to the point where someone can stand up today and say that, that all the victims are expected to survive. Just talk about what a day like today is like for the first responders at the hospital side.

[Dr. Ven Gupta]

On the call. You know, I Would say that having talked to colleagues in Hennepin county that are at the hospital in which that was the main focal point, the Level 1 trauma center in that region. You know, I can say that in any situation the local health system is reeling because this is. There's a lot of moral injury that's happening and certainly providers experience that to what your prompt was. Absolutely. I think there's a certain amount of luck here. The luck here is it sounds like, you know, I don't have full details on the, on the weapon used, but there was a rifle of some variety. And that to your point, generally causes a lot of damage really quickly. And the luck here is on what where somebody gets hit, where specifically on the body they get hit is there's a randomness to it. But luckily it seems like we're going to have of the victims currently in the hospital, school survivors. That's great. It's a level one trauma center. That incident setting is a level one trauma center, Hennepin county health center. And Nicole, just for your viewers, that's where we have trauma surgeons around the clock. That's where we have a blood bank that's operating at peak capacity. And we have EMS providers on the spot trained in first response. And so all of those things have to happen with a synergy that you're right, has been practiced now across the country. But I'll say for everybody watching is, and I hate to say this, but I think to the other panelists and their comments here, because there's a lack of political will to address the underlying problem at scale. I'm here now on your show telling folks across the country to donate blood because that's what Hennepin county needs. But that's what every single community that may face this will need. They need blood. So please donate blood if you can. And number two, get trained in basic life support. These things do save lives.

[Nicole Wallace]

Dr. Gupta, say more about the training because it's amazing that we Learned from a 10 year old student that in his telling, once a month they train for active shooter scenarios but never in church. And I wonder what you think his account suggests we should do in terms of being prepared everywhere and anywhere for the worst.

[Dr. Ven Gupta]

You know, I think we're under prepared at scale. There's, there's places that are better prepared than others. Active shooter drills generally are pretty standardized. Schools are doing that more and more often. But as a society, you know, Nicole, just on the blood piece, for instance, we're in a chronic shortage. If this happens to actually adequately respond, we have Human capital. We have trauma surgeons, but do level one trauma centers actually have the things they need to do response in a mass casualty event? I would say that's dire straits. Across the country, there's certain places better resource than others. But when it comes to what's actually happening in the schools, what do bystanders do? When it comes to bystander response, our understanding of that as a society, I believe is poor and needs to be. Needs to be optimized. So what do we. What do I mean by that? If you're a bystander, your first response. Authorities have not yet been alerted or they're in the process of coming. What do you do? You should check for danger. Is this is a safe situation for a bystander to, say, a teacher or a friend to really start intervening and checking on the welfare of potential victims. Check for responsiveness. You know, in first. And this is basic life support. Everybody watching should. You can go to your local fire station. There's places you can do this for free online or in person, nominal fee. Check for response. That's our circulation. Make sure that if somebody is somebody responsive. If they're not, check for their pulse. Look at, for example, just put two fingers on their wrist. They're not actually responsive if they don't have the pulse. That's when you want to start cpr. I can't teach this effectively in a broadcast setting, but it's important to understand that we need to have this capability as a country. Then check if they're breathing, look at their airway. And if not, that, that's when really this basic life support. Nicole, becomes really critical. But we need to be having this conversation as a society. And it reminds me the last time we talked about this, it's when we had one of the NFL football players actually collapse on Monday Night Football, started talking about the lack of. Of understanding of cpr, basic life support. We're not going to see any meaningful change on gun laws likely for the next few years. So here we are talking about blood. Here we are talking about basic life support. It matters.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and I guess the thing for every parent to decide is whether that's what they want their kids to talk about. I mean, this is a full generation probably in high school now or in college now, that has grown up with active shooter drills. And as you're saying, at some point they should probably all learn a lot of what you're talking about as well. I want to play an interview with Senator Klobuchar. She was at this press conference that we just listened to. But here's her description of the scene on our air earlier today.

[Dr. Ven Gupta]

These kids are doing the all school mass and had to watch several of her friends get shot, one in the back, one in the neck. And they all got down under the pews and she, her daughter, of course, was not shot, but her daughter ended up up being the one telling one of the dads of one of the other kids that his daughter had been shot.

[Nicole Wallace]

So, Mary, we heard the chief of police from Minneapolis describe his own officers as, quote, traumatized. And then obviously what the senator is talking about, there is an entire student body that's traumatized, an entire faith community that's traumatized, and parents all over sending their babies back to school traumatized. In Senator Klobuchar's telling, it sounds like some of them felt like the pews might have been protective. But I wonder your thoughts on this moment where back to school is going to loom even heavier and more anxiety inducing for parents everywhere.

[Mary McCord]

Well, you know, the ramifications and consequences of this beyond the moment are so significant. As you indicated, we have an entire generation now of children who are now probably entering their young adulthood who've been living with active shooter drills. There are children who have now been at two different schools in their lifetimes where they have had a shooting incident. And yet nevertheless, when mayors and states come together to enact bans on assault style rifles and high capacity magazines, they get sued by various people who want to be able to have these types of weapons that are just weapons of mass destruction, of mass killing that we don't have any legitimate use for here in the United States, in our cities, in our towns. And I would just question what is this administration doing right now other than saying our prayers are with you. We have a president right now who's talking about sending the National Guard into cities across the country that supposedly have a crime problem. Can we talk about the proliferation of firearms in this country if it weren't for the easy ready access to the types of weapons that can do this much damage in such a short amount of time? And Dr. Gupta is right, this is pretty amazing actually, that we have this many survivors because oftentimes think about the school shootings we've seen in the past where there's almost nothing left of these children because of the high capacity weapons that are being used. And this conversation needs to come back to this and we need to be pressing this administration to support these types of bans.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring into our coverage my colleague, NBC News senior national political Reporter Natasha Correcky out of Minneapolis. She joins us by phone. Natasha has been reporting from the scene for the last several hours. She's been speaking with eyewitnesses. Natasha, what can you add to our understanding of the tragedy this morning?

[Natasha Correcky]

Thanks, Nicole. Yeah, all day I've been talking to parents, you know, different staff members. I talked to a priest who left and was witnessing as the parents came in and he described them wailing as they were looking for their children. Couldn't find them. And just that unknown, those moments of not knowing. And you know, all day just the look on these parents faces is just, it's something that you mentioned earlier in the program. You know, this is 2025. I mean it. Even though we hear about it all the time, everyone keeps saying the same thing. You never think it's going to happen in your community. And here it is all this morning and then into the afternoon. These were little kids, some were even pre K, but kindergarten through eighth grade. And they're walking out and some of them are still wearing uniforms. Dads carrying their daughters on their shoulders, moms just clinging to their kids walking out but stopping to hug them again and crying. It was just very intense and very emotional. And you know, it's just the impact here, you know, it can't be understated, overstated. It's, it's, it's not just then you go to the neighbors, I mean it's not just the family member. You talk to the neighbors in the neighborhood. There's somebody going for a walk and she hears the gunshots, quiet neighborhood, she starts running. She said it was extremely scary. Another mother across the street with her daughter. Young, young daughter, not school aged yet. Said she started hearing, it was so loud. She got her daughter into the basement. She ran into the basement and she was too scared to even look out the window because she said the gunshot, the gunfire sounded so close that she was afraid something would ricochet and hit her. So these are just like little snippets of what we're hearing and the impact of, you know, one person's action.

[Nicole Wallace]

Natasha, thank you for your extraordinary reporting. You take care. I think the blast radius of trauma is vast. Angela, let me come to you. Surely what you just described is universal. There is no parent of any political persuasion that isn't brought to their knees literally and figuratively by terror when a shooter is near or at their child's school. Why are there so many barriers to protecting our kids at school when it.

[Angela Farrell Zapata]

Comes to guns, I'd say absolutely you're so Correct. That regardless of your political affiliation, no one, absolutely no one is okay with this status quo of our children being massacred, whether it's in playgrounds and schools and houses of worship. This is absolutely, absolutely unacceptable. The good news, if I can give any kind of silver lining here, is that as I get to travel across the country and talk to people of all political persuasion, so we're talking the reddest of red, bluest of blues, and purple states, and folks are fed up. And they could be gun owners, not gun owners people, faith, not. And the bottom line is that we must do something different. We cannot continue to allow this to be the thing that we're doing, that we're having a conversation at the end of the day when there are parents that have to bury their children now, and we're talking about, what side are you on? This is not about sides. These are saving our children's lives, saving our future. It's absolutely unacceptable to hear anyone say or do anything other than step up and do the right thing and have the courage to do the right thing. I think what we're looking at really is our us kind of pushing against a gun industry, a gun industry that is set on, you know, selling fear in our community, that is set on profiting off of our losses. Because the majority of folks. Polls over and over again will show that the majority folks across this country will agree on common sense measures that will and can prevent tragedies like this from happening. One thing in particular, and I heard the panelists earlier mention assault weapons. This is something. These are weapons of war that are created to kill as many people as fast as possible, and they're on our streets. So there's ways that we should be considering and thinking about passing common sense legislation that are going to potentially keep our children safe and prevent tragedies like this one.

[Nicole Wallace]

I believe this is the first school shooting in America. That has been something that the Pope has responded to. Pope Leo, through a spokesperson, was said to be obviously profoundly sad, sending his heartfelt condolences to these very, very young victims at a Catholic school in Minneapolis today. Our thanks to Natasha, our thanks to Angela, to Dr. Gupta. Mary sticks around a little bit longer. We'll bring you any updates to the investigation as we learn them over the course of the next hour and a half. Thank you, all of you, for starting us off today. We will be right back.

[Pope Leo Spokesperson]

Children are dead. There are families that have a deceased child. You cannot put into words the gravity, the tragedy, or the absolute pain of this situation. Do not think of these as just somebody else's kids. Those families are suffering immense pain right now. Think of this as if it were your own. These were Minneapolis families. These were American families. And the amount of pain that they are suffering right now is extraordinary. Don't just say this is about thoughts and prayers right now. These kids were literally praying. It was the first week of school. They were in a church. These are kids that should be learning with their friends. They should be playing on the playground. They should be able to go to school or church in peace without the fear or risk of violence. And their parents should have the same kind of assurance.

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[Dr. Ven Gupta]

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[Nicole Wallace]

I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.

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[Josh Burkin]

I would have much more respect for Pritzker if he'd call me up and say I have a problem. Can you help me fix it? I would be so happy to do it. I don't love not that I don't have the right to do anything I want to do. I'm the President of the United States States. If I think our country is in danger and it is in danger in these cities, I can do it. No problem going in and solving, you know, his difficulties. But it would be Nice if they'd call and they'd say, would you do it? And we do it in conjunction.

[Nicole Wallace]

Donald Trump yesterday claiming he can do anything he wants to do, believing he can send troops into any city he wants. That worldview, that threat, and that it is what it is, a threat to deploy troops in cities run by Democrats comes at the same time. There are signs everywhere that Donald Trump's test case, the National Guard deployment in the Nation's capital, Washington, D.C. is not standing up to scrutiny by juries and courts. There was an incredible loss yesterday for U.S. attorney Jeanine Pirro's office when it comes to, to one of the most high profile arrests in D.C. prosecutors failure to secure a felony assault indictment against Shawn Dunn. Sean Dunn is a former Justice Department employee. He threw a sandwich at a federal agent on the streets of Washington, D.C. earlier this month. Washington Post also reports that, quote, a federal grand jury on three separate occasions this month refused to indict a D.C. woman who was accused of assaulting an FBI agent. Days later, a federal magistrate judge said an arrest in Northwest Washington was preceded by the, quote, most illegal search I've seen in my life, end quote, and described another arrest as lacking, quote, basic human dignity. We should note it is altogether highly unusual for prosecutors to come out of a grand jury, to come out of presenting evidence to a grand jury and fail to secure an indictment. It almost never happens, but it did three times with the sandwich guy. Joining our conversation is the managing editor of the Bulwark, MSNBC contributor Sam Stein. Mary's back as well, Sam. There's so many layers to this, right? And we are all aware of how powerful and emotional politically fear is, especially on a day like today of gun violence, of crime. Donald Trump's actions don't match things that people might respond to out of real fear of crime. They're going after symbolic arrests, symbolic prosecutions. And Today, I believe U.S. national Guard troops from roaming the streets in Washington, D.C. were scooping garbage into garbage bags. What's going on?

[Josh Burkin]

Well, in our, in our nation's capital, what we have here is a massive influx of National Guard troops and federal officials. And in certain cases, it has had an effect, deterrent effect. So Mayor Bowser, for instance, today said carjackings are down significantly. And frankly, that seems logical to me. Right. If you flood a city with federal law enforcement officials, you should have a corresponding downward trend in terms of crime and carjackings among them. But what's happened here is that a lot of these troops and these guardsmen are concentrated in areas that aren't high crime areas. They are doing it at a great expense to taxpayers. They are roaming parks, for instance, as you see a lot when you walk around D.C. now. And they're doing custodial. And the irony, of course, is that earlier in the year, Republicans, with Donald Trump's signature, cut a billion dollars from the Washington, D.C. budget. Earlier in the year, Doge, at the behest of Elon Musk, gutted the National Park Service. And now we're taking National Guard troops from states across the country, bring them to D.C. and they're doing a lot of the work that the D.C. public Service employees and the National Park Service employees would be doing if they had been properly, properly funded. And so, yes, there's been a drop in crime, and yes, Donald Trump has touted that. But this is terribly inefficient, and it's having this kind of emotional effect on the city where a lot of people are freaking out, because in certain cases, ICE agents are roaming with masks on. They're clearly targeting undocumented immigrants in the city. And this seems less about reducing crime and more about getting those undocumented immigrants off of the D.C. streets. And that's not what Trump has been advertising.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mary McCord, it is rare for federal prosecutors to bring evidence before three grand juries, as we said at the top, and fail to secure an indictment. What does it say, though, that they were asked to go in three times?

[Mary McCord]

Well, that's extraordinary, too. Unless there was some change in the evidence, right? I mean, there are cases where you might get what we used to call a no bill, which is when the grand jury refuses to return a true bill, a bill of indictment. And sometimes it might be because, you know, a critical witness you just weren't able to put in the grand jury or some piece of evidence that, you know, the grand jury wanted that just wasn't available to the prosecutor at the time. And maybe you go in again later. I mean, more commonly, you would just not ever ask for a vote, and you'd find that eventually evidence or get that evidence or that witness and try again later. But assuming you did ask for a vote and you got a no, no bill, you might have some new evidence that you could produce, so then you could see trying again. There's no indication here that the evidence was different. I mean, we have a video. We can see exactly what happened. I'm not sure what else a grand jury would need. So this says to me, this is a grand jury that is essentially nullifying. They're saying you're presenting Something here, and we either don't think it meets the elements of. Of the time, or even if it does, it's. You are so overcharging that we refuse to go for it. And I suspect it's the latter. It's a sandwich. Should he have done it? No. Is it technically an assault on officer? Yes, if it's going to be charged at all. And most of the time, something like this would not be. It would be a misdemeanor at most. And I think that's what you, you know, the grand jurors, they hear lots of evidence in lots of cases. So it's not like they come in just to hear the. This case. So they've seen real crime. Right. They've had cases presented to them that are actual, real crimes. And I'm sure they have returned indictments. And this one was a bridge too far. The other case as well was a woman who was recording public officials, officers doing their job in public, something that every journalist and every American and every person in this country has a right to do. Recording public officials doing their jobs in public. And it was a result of that that this scuffle occurred. And I think there, too, you saw a grand jury that just rejected that. And you're right, it is rare. And I think it's a real signal of how the office, my former office, where I spent 20 years, is overcharging things. And, and I think that the people on that grand jury, they're the citizens of the. Of D.C. they know exactly the point that Sam just made, that we have, you know, a president who's making a big splash about sending in the National Guard and using federal agents. The National Guard right now, except for one of their vehicles running into another vehicle, I don't think has been where we've seen some of the real abuses, but with ICE going along and other federal agents going along with MPD every day, really seeming to target undocumented workers, throwing to them, slamming them to the ground with multiple agents when there's no violent crime. They just suspected of being undocumented. These are the things that are really, really making the citizens here unhappy. And those are the same people that serve on grand juries.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right, no one's going anywhere. There's more on the story to talk about. We'll get to it after a very short break. Stay with us.

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[Mary McCord]

I need a coffee.

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[Nicole Wallace]

We'Re back with Sam and Mary. So, Sam, it seems that one of the problems Trump's going to have is if it quacks like a duck and looks like a duck and in this case looks like a militarized police state in Washington, D.C. even the reddest parts of the country aren't going to be able to to convince the people who live there that it isn't what it looks like. So here's right wing MAGA Congressman, his name is Josh Burkin, trying to sell some ice to the Eskimos.

[Josh Burkin]

Constitutionally, we have the authority to be over Washington, D.C. what happened in LA to the President? He's a chief law enforcement officer. Yes, he is by the Constitution. He's the chief law enforcement office to execute. So he is the executive, highest executive authority. The role of the executive is to make sure the laws are executed. So as also he is given the opportunity in the Constitution. He is also given the opportunity in the Constitution, y'. All. This is lawlessness. This is what lawlessness looks like.

[Nicole Wallace]

So Sam, Josh lost the room. But what's amazing is that Josh is calling First Amendment, barely even pressing on any of the limits of the First Amendment. Simply your own constituents attending a town hall meeting, which is ostensibly for them to tell you what they think, calling their protests lawlessness. In some ways, that's as ominous as anything happening on the streets of D.C. that was not.

[Josh Burkin]

If that's lawlessness, then I fear that he's got to learn up on what lawlessness actually is. Look, I think there's a nuance here which is I do think if we're just looking at it just strictly in the terms of Politics. I think Trump has a little bit of ground here. If you look at the polling data, people are somewhat supportive of the idea that there's crime in the cities, that it's out of control, and that a heavier presence, even from the federal government would be useful to tamp it down. And I think when you see Mariel Bowser, the D.C. mayor today, welcoming the federal resources, that suggests to me that there is some space for Trump to operate. The danger, of course, with Trump is that he takes an issue like this and he pushes it to an extreme, that turns it from what could be an advantage into a disadvantage. And when he's kind of soft floating, the idea that he can be a dictator and that he has no limits on the power that he can exert here and that he can bring the military into US Cities and take over places like Chicago. Now, DC Is unique because DC has its own rules that allow for the federal intervention on a 30 day timeline. But Chicago would be totally different. If you brought the military into Chicago, then you get into a place where Trump is on much different turf. And that's a situation where you have people who are discomforted by the idea of that he's just going to do these types of things. And that's the situation where you have town halls like the one where we just witnessed, where people say, no, you cannot invade a US City with the United States military. We can't turn the military on our own citizens. And I think that's the politically disadvantageous turf for Trump, not necessarily what we're talking about with crime, per se.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me just stop you, though. I worked for Republican presidents, I worked for a Republican governor, I worked for a Republican attorney general, the state of California who ran on three strikes. You're out. No Republican is for military on the streets. What Republicans are for are more cops. What Republicans are for are more prosecutors. What Republicans are for are more restrictions on how you get out of jail after serving your time or being charged. So I guess I just. This sliding toward the normalization of Trump's on solid ground is absolute horse doo doo. Sam, Trump is in an abnormal outer. He's in outer space. I work for Republican Republicans longer than you've probably been able to legally drive. And no Republican has ever been for active duty troops on the streets of an American city ever.

[Josh Burkin]

No doubt. And I think that, and like I said, if he were to, if he were to send the military into Chicago, it would be a bridge too far. And arguably what he's doing in D.C. is way too far. And what he did in LA. I'm trying to remember what the numbers were at the time, but he took it too far. And I think you're absolutely right. And with Trump, it's always this case where you have, you could craft a normal, somewhat more normal position, but it goes for the extreme. And I think it's really ominous that in the past three days, in his public utterances, he's been talking about, well, people want a dictator, and I'm not a dictator, but people want a dictator. And I think the public will turn on that, frankly.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that's right, but I just think we have to be careful. Where he's on solid ground is on solving crime. There is no mandate for troops and tanks on the streets of American cities. It's why John Kelly gives his only broadcast interview five days before the election in November and warns about exactly this because Trump tried to do it the first time. Sam Stein, Mary McCord, thank you for spending time with us this hour. Coming up in the next hour of Deadline, White House how the Trump administration is punishing those who dare to point out anything inconvenient for Donald Trump. Trump, you don't want to miss this. Don't go anywhere.