← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"A typical Trump move...feign absolute ignorance"
00:42:09
Nicolle Wallace on Ghislaine Maxwell's luxurious prison conditions revealed by Rep. Jamie Raskin.
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Claire McCaskill
The Supreme Court is back in session. They rejected today an appeal by Ghislaine.
- [00:54]
Commercial Announcer
Maxwell to overturn her conviction. That means her only chance at getting.
- [00:57]
Claire McCaskill
Out of prison is a pardon from you.
- [00:59]
Commercial Announcer
Is that something you're.
- [01:00]
Donald Trump
Who are we talking about?
- [01:01]
Commercial Announcer
Ghislaine Max?
- [01:04]
Donald Trump
You know, I haven't heard the name in so long I can say this that I'd have to take a look at it. I would have to take a look. Well, I'll take a look at it. I'll speak to, I will speak to the doj. I wouldn't consider it or not consider. I don't know anything about it. So. But I'll speak, I will speak to the doj.
- [01:21]
Nicole Wallace
It'll speak to that far away agency down the road that I have nothing to do with. Hi again, Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. It is a typical Trump response.
- [01:33]
Michelle Norris
Who.
- [01:33]
Nicole Wallace
Who feign some sort of ignorance when you don't want to answer a question, when you know exactly who you're being asked about. That was a little over one month ago. Donald Trump pretending, needing some clarification about who. The question was about who Ghislaine Maxwell is. Maxwell, of course, Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice. She's currently serving 20 years in prison after being convicted of child sex trafficking. Trump has taken multiple photos with her. That's him and Melania and Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell there. Trump even said this when she was first convicted in 2020.
- [02:08]
Donald Trump
I've met her numerous times over the years, especially since I lived in Palm beach and I guess they lived in Palm Beach. But I wish her well.
- [02:16]
Nicole Wallace
Whatever it is, I wish her well. She's a convicted Child sex trafficker. But okay. Ghislaine Maxwell's situation got even more hair raising over the summer after she was transported to a lower security prison in Texas after sitting down for a lengthy interview with Donald Trump's Deputy Attorney General, Todd Blanche, a move that Chris Christie described as unprecedented. Now, according to a whistleblower who spoke with the House Judiciary Committee, there are new revelations about Ghislaine Maxwell's treatment at that prison. Ranking member of the committee, Democrat Jamie Raskin, wrote a letter to Donald Trump that says this. Quote, according to specific information received by minority staff on this committee, the warden at the prison has heaped favorable concierge sty treatment on Ms. Maxwell since her bizarre arrival at the institution. This top flight luxury service has reached such a point of absurdity that one of the top officials at the prison has complained that he is, quote, sick of having to be Maxwell's B word. Regarding Maxwell's attempts to get out of prison, Raskin addresses that as well. Quote, she is preparing a commutation application for your administration to review, undoubtedly coming to you for your direct consideration. Raskin is now demanding answers about what was said and promised to Ghislaine Maxwell by the Trump administration and is asking that Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche appear for a public hearing with the Judiciary Committee. The congressman declares forcefully that Maxwell should not be granted clemency. Quote, maxwell was convicted by a jury of her peers for some of the most harrowing conduct criminalized by our laws, conduct for which she reportedly showed an utter lack of remorse. That is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends, MSNBC justice and intelligence reporter Kend. Also joining us, former Democratic Senator and MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill is here, and MSNBC senior contributing editor Michelle Norris is with me at the table for the hour. Kandelanean, this is your reporting. Take us through it.
- [04:21]
Kendall Tietz
Well, so it's clear that the Democrats are talking to one or more whistleblowers, and they've also obtained some documents. Nicole. And as you said, Jamie Raskin wrote this letter addressed to Donald Trump outlining some of this information. And what they're describing just is. Is amazing, actually, it smacks of corruption. There's no explanation for it, and we haven't heard one from the White House or the Justice Department or the Bureau of Prisons. What Raskin is saying is, as you described, is the warden of the prison has essentially carved out a series of special treatment benefits for Ghislaine Maxwell, including, for example, having special meals delivered to her cell, having affording her access to a private exercise area, giving her access to a service puppy, which just as an aside, I think probably all prisoners should have access to service puppies, but the rules don't allow that. And she's getting a special benefit there when visitors come in to see her. According to Raskin's sources, they are being whisked through special procedures. They don't have to wait with everyone else and they're allowed to bring in or actually they have snacks prepared waiting for them, according to this letter. And in some cases they've been allowed to bring in computers, which Raskin said raised the possibility that Maxwell was allowed unsupervised communications with the outside world, which is not supposed to happen for a federal inmate. And let's remember here that Maxwell doesn't actually qualify to be at this Club Fed style federal prison camp in Bryan, Texas. She's a sex offender. And when she was transferred from her low security prison in Florida, we of course asked prison experts about this. And I was told that they had never seen anything like this before, that technically you could grant a waiver, the prison system could, to make this happen, but they've never seen the experts. I talked to a second offender put in a prison camp like this, especially somebody with a 20 year sentence, because these are places for nonviolent non serious offenders. People with long sentences just aren't allowed in these places. And yet here she is being given all this special treatment. And to top it all off, what Raskin is saying is that the warden herself is actually helping Maxwell prepare this application for a commutation of her sentence. Printing out documents help giving her access to typing word processing capabilities. And so Maxwell is preparing to ask Donald Trump to commute her sentence. And of course, we should all remember that one of the things she said in that famous interview with Todd Blanche, the deputy Attorney general and Donald Trump's former defense lawyer, is she said that she didn't see Donald Trump doing anything inappropriate with women around Jeffrey Epstein. And that was an important thing for the Trump administration, for Donald Trump to get out there. And they put that transcript out pretty quickly. And now we see Ghislaine Maxwell getting special favors in prison.
- [07:13]
Nicole Wallace
Nicole, it might seem like a small detail, but I want to drill down on what you're reporting about her interactions with the puppy. You report this, quote, an inmate who trains puppies to become service dogs was instructed to provide one to Ghislaine Maxwell for a time so she could play with the puppy, even though neither inmates nor staff are ordinarily allowed to Pet the service dogs in training. Here's what the CEO of K9 Companions, who runs the program in that prison had to say about Ghislaine Maxwell's lack of fitness to be anywhere near her puppies.
- [07:45]
Commercial Announcer
One of the guidelines in our process is that we do not allow anyone who has committed a crime against minors or animals, including crimes against those communities of a sexual nature, to raise or be involved in our program. And that's for a couple of reasons. We serve a vulnerable population. People with disabilities are considered a vulnerable population. And a puppy, if you put it in the hands of a handler, is a vulnerable animal. So we also. Some of our clients are children. And one of the things that happens when they are placed with their dog is they're allowed to meet and know who their puppy raiser is. So we wouldn't. We wouldn't want to have someone who has injured children needing a client child who is getting one of their dogs.
- [08:29]
Nicole Wallace
So she's not supposed to be anywhere near the dogs. I understand what you're reporting is that she's petting the puppies in training, but that's not part of any of these programs. But convicted child sex offenders aren't supposed to be around dogs being trained to be service animals for what the head of that program describes as a vulnerable population. How are. And I imagine if she's infiltrated the puppy training program, it's just illustrative of all the rules being broken on her behalf. What is your sense of who has ordered all of the rule breaking on behalf of Ghislaine Maxwell?
- [09:08]
Kendall Tietz
Well, according, by the way, I had not heard that sound. That was really fascinating that it makes a ton of sense. Right. And let's not forget, Maxwell was convicted of trafficking girls as young as 14, so crimes against children. So the Raskin letter, Nicole, makes clear that their information is that the warden of the facility, a woman whose name I don't have in front of me right now, is orchestrating this in ordering and making happen these special favors. What we don't know is why is she doing that? Who, if anyone, instructed her to do that? Who is. Is she. You know what? Why would this happen? There's. I mean, there's no. These kinds of things don't happen in federal prisons for no reason. And as you said, the puppy thing, you know, might seem like a minor thing, but it is. It's. It's an incredible deviation from the norm, and it shows that she's getting all kinds of favors, at least according to these allegations made to the Democrats on the committee that other inmates are not getting. And by the way, Raskin's letter also said that a lot of, in addition to the staff member who used the colorful language that you mentioned, other staff members and inmates, Raskin said, are upset about this, have raised concerns about the special treatment. And Raskin said that anyone who has done that has been retaliated against. And that's a pretty scary thing when you think of the power that prison officials have over inmates. You know what kind of retaliation? He didn't say, but people are clearly speaking up about this. And look, this merits further investigation. Now, again, I asked the White House, I asked the Justice Department, couldn't get to the Bureau of Prisons because of the shutdown. We've not heard a peep from any of these entities even disputing these allegations explaining what was going on here. No answers.
- [11:00]
Nicole Wallace
Nicole and Claire McCoskill, again, the reason the head of Canine Companions explained that to me was an interview without any political overlay. It was about her program of training service animals, a program that extends into prisons like this one, where the criminals have to be non violent in nature and their victims can't include children because the service dogs are get placed with vulnerable populations who in her telling, often include children. Now, these aren't allegations against Ghislaine Maxwell. She is a convicted child sex trafficker. She went out and preyed on vulnerable girls and women to help Jeffrey Epstein get whatever his, you know, 34 orgasms a day was or whatever his quota was for that. That was her job. That was her role. She also engaged, according to the victims and survivors, in the sex acts herself. She's described as, quote, taking the panties off some girls. And many of victims who've appeared on this show and across our network describe the trauma they live with today as being almost more acute or as acute from Ghislaine Maxwell's atrocities as Jeffrey Epstein's. This is the person that Donald Trump in 2020 said he, quote, wishes well and a month ago said he's going to talk to DOJ about that.
- [12:22]
Claire McCaskill
Yeah, I'm so glad you went through what the evidence was. I think we have a tendency with Ghislaine Maxwell sometimes just to talk that she, you know, rounded up women for Jeffrey Epstein and she was, you know, his plus one. And she was in pictures with Trump. And we leave out the harrowing details of how these children were sexually, sexually abused and, you know, that she was involved in these acts of sexual abuse. She was in the room. And not only did she say she never saw Trump touch Any woman inappropriately. She said the same thing about any man. So she's obviously lying. The evidence was clear. Why does anybody think she got 20 years? I mean, Kim Delaney will tell you, 20 years in a federal prison sentence is a significant sentence, and that's why she's in prison. And if you need another reason to care about the midterms, how badly do you want to see that warden under oath in front of Congress? I don't know about you, but I love. Because this is like a bad prison movie is what this is. You know, this is like an episode of Orange is the New Black that's gone crazy. And I think getting to the bottom of this warden and why the warden is doing this and the idea that this commutation would even be considered, he is busy working, taking food away from children while he is playing with the idea of letting a child sexual abuser go. It is just unbelievable.
- [13:59]
Nicole Wallace
The thing about the Epstein and Maxwell story is that it actually doesn't divide Americans. 81% of all Americans believe Donald Trump is covering something up, and then his DOJ officials go down from there. He's the highest in terms of what the public perceives as a cover up. Todd Blanche is on the list, Pam Bondi's on the list. And in terms of our awareness of the story, a lot of the backstory, as I understood the political pressures and even including some of the victims themselves, some of what Trump won the election in 2020 for some of that, for some people, was about this case, was about transparency. Kash Patel went on Joe Rogan's podcast and talked about, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the numbers of gigabytes of videos of the crimes taking place. That's what he promised. And that's why Andrew Schultz and Joe Rogan have said things like, quote, what do they think we are? Babies? Baby suckers? I mean, your word's not mine, Bo, but this was a lie. Trump told his own base to get.
- [15:03]
Michelle Norris
Elected, that he was going to be the man in the white hat who was going to avenge what happened to these victims. And we should bring the victims into this every time we talk about this, because this is every time we have a conversation about this, every time the idea of her commutation is raised, that is just another dagger to the heart. That is another jab to the gut. That is just another way of demeaning women who are now women, but were little girls, little girls, 12, 13, 14 years old when this happened. And so there are several dimensions to this One of them is that Donald Trump said he was going to do something, and he's not. You know, there were. There was a time a few months ago where people could not even pronounce her name. And now people know who she is, they know what she's done. And because they clearly understand this. And again, important, as Claire said, to walk through the charges, the idea that she might face a commutation is just something that Americans can't swallow. But Donald Trump is willing to use political capital on this to allow this to continue. The warden, you asked the right question. Why would someone use that much capital on her own? This is someone who's got a PhD who apparently was well respected and allowing this to happen, knowing that it would be made public. And as a question to the commutation, it's interesting because honesty is a big part of that process. You know, can she actually be honest in having to fill out that very complicated form? She has to show rehabilitation, that she's been rehabilitated.
- [16:28]
Nicole Wallace
And remorse. That's right.
- [16:29]
Michelle Norris
And remorse. Contrition. And letters of support. Again, capital. Who is going to use their personal capital to write a letter of support on behalf of Ghislaine Maxwell for something like this?
- [16:39]
Donald Trump
The public.
- [16:41]
Michelle Norris
It's yet another example of how this administration is tone deaf to the interests of the public, certainly to the concerns of the victims. And you would think at this point that they would try to back away from this, backpedal against this. And, you know, he's acting like an owl saying, who, who, who are you talking about? We know that he knows who we're talking about. So what are they trying to hide? What is in those files that are so scary that they're willing to go to these lengths to prevent the American public from seeing them?
- [17:10]
Nicole Wallace
It's just. It's amazing. I mean, Ken, do you have any reporting on who is providing any of those letters for the commutation process?
- [17:20]
Kendall Tietz
No, I don't. But I would point out that what you were describing is how the normal commutation process would work. You know, it would be reviewed by perhaps the pardon attorney. There would be forms to fill out. There were, you know, there was a requirement, as Michelle said, for contrition. But that's not what's been happening with Donald Trump. I mean, George Santos didn't express very much contrition. The Chinese crypto billionaire who was pardoned, the corrupt governor of Illinois. I mean, the list goes on. And Trump is pardoning and commuting without regard for whether how serious the crimes were, whether people expressed remorse, whether they went through the normal process. You know, in fact, as far as we can tell, the pardon attorney really has very little to do with any of this stuff.
- [18:07]
Nicole Wallace
It's an incredible, it's an incredible thing about this moment and an incredible part of this, of the story. And it ties back to what Claire said, that right now the only counterweight to all of that distortion and perversion of the pardon process is the American people, is how we vote. Kendallane and thank you for starting us off this hour. Incredible reporting. Thank you, Michelle and Claire. Stick around. When we come back, FBI Director Kash Patel isn't just a brash partisan and Trump loyalist. Our allies are learning the hard way that he can be unreliable. Brand new reporting in the New York Times on how Kash Patel pledged to support Britain's MI5, only to go back on his word next. Also ahead, you might have felt it this weekend, a subtle but real beginning of a turning of the tide politically. But Americans more than ever before over the last 12 months have found their voice to take a stand and to question the conduct of a deeply unpopular president who is failing in his promises to make things better for any voters, including those who voted for him. What that looks like and sounds like one year after he was elected a second time. Later in the hour deadline. White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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There are some incredible new reporting in the category of shocking. Not surprising today, about Kash Patel. It's about how FBI Director Kash Patel has alarmed decades long US Security allies with his inexperience and his departure, shall we say from FBI norms of integrity and security. And now the latest episode according to the New York Times has contributed to their concerns that quote, Patel ration partisan is also unpredictable and even unreliable, end quote. More from that report quote British security officials rely on the bureau for high tech surveillance tools, the kind they might need to monitor new embassy that China wants to build near the Tower of London. At a secret gathering in May south of London, the head of Britain's domestic security service asked Kash Patel to protect the job of an FBI agent based in London who dealt with that technology. That's according to several current and former US Officials with knowledge of this episode. Quote, Patel agreed to find funding to keep the posting, the official said, but the job had already been slated to disappear as the White House moved to slash the FBI budget, the agent moved to a different job back in the US saving the FBI money but leaving MI5 officials incredulous. I want to bring in former deputy national security advisor to President Obama, MSNBC contributor Ben Rhodes. Claire and Michel are still here. Claire, you were the first person to send me this story this morning. This is one of those channels that is usually obviously has to honor changes in policies and priorities from administration to administration, but one of those security cooperative agreements that usually isn't subject to even the most volatile political undulations in our country. And now it is. That feels like the big headline here.
- [22:43]
Michelle Norris
Yeah.
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Claire McCaskill
You know this article was by far the most alarming thing I read today. And that's always a test. In the Trump years, the intelligence services are headed, typically the FBI and the CIA, by very serious professional people. And their counterparts are very serious and professional people. And together these five countries called the five eyes, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, United Kingdom, the United States, they have kept us safe. There have been bumps like 9, 11. By and large there has been incredible cooperation. And that cooperation is based on Trust, professionalism, and credibility. This article drips with the facts that Kash Patel is a joke. He can't keep his word. He shows up to a meeting and greets the head of MI5 in a trucker hat and a green hooded sweatshirt. Now, I don't think. I don't know what he thinks, if he's trying out for some influencer role on Instagram, but the head of the FBI does not show up in a trucker hat and a green hoodie to meet the head of MI on British soil. And that's exactly what happened. And then, of course, he lied and said he would protect his position because it was important to not just the security in the UK, but the security in America. Time after time, these security agencies have worked together. Ben can tell you chapter and verse of how many times we have helped one another at this level. And now nobody trusts the United States. That's very dangerous for our country.
- [24:22]
Nicole Wallace
It's dangerous that they don't trust us. It may be more enduring that they might not respect conduct like this. Ben, this is also in this Times story. Quote, on a visit to New Zealand in July, Kash Patel brought plastic 3D printed replica pistols as gifts to senior national security officials. But they were illegal under local laws and had to be destroyed. Kash Patel also visited Australia, where he had suspended the Bureau's top representative in that country because she had taken a knee during racial justice protests in 2020. He fired her. He went to dinner at Windsor Palace. Quote, Patel and his girlfriend joined the other security intelligence officials at that dinner at Windsor palace with King Charles, according to two of the former officials. At the end of the night, the group gathered for a photograph. Kash Patel stood next to the King. This is, for now, our representative in these meetings and in these rooms.
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Intelligence Analyst
Yeah, I mean, look, there's the obvious point here that this is not really a serious person and he's dealing with other serious people. Right. The leaders of intelligence for Australia or the United Kingdom, they're not living in a kind of magaverse where, you know, a 3D pistol is a cool gift or a trucker hat is a kind of signal of, you know, where you stand on the culture wars. They're dealing with threats. And this leads me to something I want to add to this discussion. Discussion, Nicole, which is there's understandably a lot of focus on the prioritization in the FBI to say go after Trump's enemies. I think what there's not enough focus on, and this story highlights it, is what the FBI is Not doing right. We know that they've shifted huge resources to the immigration crackdown. We know they're cutting budgets. We know they're firing experienced agents for things like taking a knee during racial justice protests. We know that they're finding kind of Potemkin prosecutors who will go after people like James Comey, who is mining the store, who is running the counterintelligence accounts to deal with foreign adversaries, who is trying to deal with foreign terrorist organizations or narco traffickers who might be looking at money laundering in crypto, which we know the Trump team has huge affinity for because it's lining their pockets here. I think one of the untold stories of the Trump years is it's not just what they're doing, it's what they're not doing. And I think there's going to be a lot of concerns in the years to come when we see cyber attacks or when we see white collar crime or when we see counterintelligence threats, how much our defenses have been let down to kind of fit in the worldview of people like Cash Patel. That does not make us safe. Quite the opposite.
- [26:54]
Nicole Wallace
Ben. If I hear this, I'm sure you hear this tenfold more frequently, and that is that the chatter that people hear right now is louder than the chatter they heard before 9 11. Layer onto that the dynamic you're describing, where they have, by choice, absolutely annihilated the senior ranks of the FBI. They have gotten rid of decades of experience in counter terror, counter espionage, cyber corruption, all of these capabilities. What is the conversation among national security experts about how vulnerable we are right now?
- [27:34]
Intelligence Analyst
It's. It's very alarmed. Nicole, just to take a couple of the examples that you cite here, right? Corruption. They've kind of systematically demolished the parts of the FBI that are supposed to go after corruption. Right? Same thing with cybersecurity. We've seen a lot of positions left vacant and kind of seeming deprioritization at the exact time when we know that there's kind of a record high of cyber attacks from states like Russia or from common criminals who are looking to scam people, increasing with artificial intelligence. So you have new tools in the hands of our adversaries, like AI. You've got a very hostile geopolitical environment with Russia and China, principally at the same time that we're pretty clearly. And this is not just analysis, this is fact deprioritizing those issues relative to Trump priorities like immigration enforcement or going after his political enemies. And to think that the world is just going to cooperate by not having that lead to a cyber attack or not having that lead to increased criminality is to just ignore the world that we're living in. I think that's, that's we have to look at both sides of what Trump is doing with someone like Kash Patel. He's both, in my opinion, corrupting the Justice Department by using as a tool to go after his enemies. But he's also kind of dismantling the expertise and the experience and the positions that are required to do the kinds of basic things that Americans expect the federal government do to keep them safe.
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Nicole Wallace
It's so twisted because if you're on that side and you want some political running room to do the distasteful work of retribution, one of the ways to shore up among your own coalition, obviously none of the rest of us in the pro democracy coalition is for weaponization. But even in their own coalition, making America less safe is an idiotic way to go about doing something so universally unpopular and distasteful. Ben Rhodes, so much more TO be continued. Thank you so much for joining us on this story today. When we come back, you may have felt it starting last Tuesday night or over the weekend, we seem to have reached a sort of tipping point in the public conversation where more Americans in every walk of life and every level seem to feel a little safer popping their head up and speaking out against a weak, politically out of touch, seemingly on purpose and ineffective. Donald Trump happened at the ballot box. Even SNL seemed to stiffen its spine a little bit, happened in an NFL stadium in which he stood. We'll show all those moments to you and have that conversation next.
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You might tell me I'm crazy at the end of this, but you could start to feel it over the weekend. It's subtle. It's a subtle shift, a beginning of a potential turning of the tide, starting to shrug off some numbness or despair or collective malaise that has hung over the democracy side for the better part of the year since Donald Trump won a second term. Maybe it's Tuesday night, maybe it's how Trump keeps plunging in the polls. But maybe a renewed sense of courage kindling in every corner of American civic life. Entertainment, sports, politics. We'll start with snl, which is jury's been out on how aggressive they were going to be and pointing out the absurdity and monstrosity of some of what Trump's been doing. But there was a cold open that has in past times been a weekly barometer of how a president's doing. Watch this week's.
- [32:45]
Donald Trump
Each week I like to create a big visual that sort of sums up how things are going. Last week it was the demolishing of the East Wing. This week it's a medical professional almost dying in my Oval Office at the mere thought of charging less for drugs. Maybe next week a bald eagle will fall dead out of the sky and splat right on the White House lawn. And by lawn, of course, I mean big outdoor concrete floor. I promised grocery prices would plummet, and they did. They plummeted straight up. And people are saying, but sir, how will I afford my Thanksgiving turkey for my family? Well, good news is your family's not coming because all the planes are gone.
- [33:26]
Nicole Wallace
Now, SNL has a long history of criticizing American presidents, and they been critical of Trump before, but that seemed very on the nose. More surprising, though, is what happened in the stadium where Donald Trump went to watch a football game, something he's turned to over and over again, the sports world. Trump, who reportedly wants his name slapped on the Washington commander's new stadium, was greeted this way when he became the first president to attend a regular season NFL game since 1978. Listen close to.
- [34:08]
Donald Trump
Please raise your right hands. I am saying your name. Do solemnly swear that I will support any fan the Constitution of the United States.
- [34:40]
Nicole Wallace
And then there's a political arena, an arena at times of the past year sorely lacking grit and resilience that appears to be changing as well. We're dealing with an invasive species by.
- [34:54]
Kendall Tietz
The name of Donald Trump.
- [35:02]
Donald Trump
He is an historic president, however historically unpopular president.
- [35:09]
Jumba Casino Announcer
And folks gotta wake up and realize the people who are leading in America quite literally want to keep people hungry. And you'll excuse me for getting emotional about it. But when I see hungry people in my state who are hungry because it J.D. vance's politics, that makes me angry. And that's why I went to court. And that's why we're funding share and that's why we're putting dollars back on people's snap cards, because that's what the people of Pennsylvania deserve and America deserves better than J.D.
- [35:40]
Commercial Announcer
Vance.
- [35:42]
Nicole Wallace
Let me say for my own part, I've come on the air day after day after day with a new story of capitulation. A law firm, Paul Weiss, the others that follow them on bended knee literally in the Oval Office doing deals with Donald Trump, who in the they represented individuals and groups that were fighting him, now working for his Commerce Department, in some instances, university after university after university after university doing deals to secure their funding. So I am open to both of you telling me that I'm seeing things that I want to see. But Claire, it feels like the beginning of the beginning of pushing back.
- [36:19]
Claire McCaskill
Yeah, I think the visuals, I've talked about this on election night. The visuals have been. Visuals really matter. And I'm not talking about ads that produced or slick negative pieces. I'm talking about the visuals of the White House being torn down, the visuals of masked men on streets in military uniforms throwing women to the ground in a brutal fashion. These are the visuals that are playing in people's heads right now. And I will say this, I did notice something interesting about Shapiro. Both of the men you just featured are clearly running for president. Next time Newsom is running and Shapiro is running, you notice Newsom talked about Trump, you know, Shapiro talked about Vance. So what Shapiro is doing is he is calling out the guy who is Most likely to take the mantle from Trump and be the nominee for the MAGAverse in 2028. But the other thing, Nicole, then you and I have talked about this a lot. When you look at the polling, yes, he's dropped some with Republicans, but the real shift has come with independent voters. Since the first of the year to now, independent voters have lost faith in this gu. They don't like what he's doing, and most importantly, they don't like how he's doing it.
- [37:38]
Nicole Wallace
What do you think? I feel I can see how skeptical you are.
- [37:40]
Michelle Norris
No, I'm not skeptical. I actually do think this was a turning point this week.
- [37:44]
Nicole Wallace
Tuesday.
- [37:45]
Michelle Norris
Tuesday, the sustained booing, you know, did they not expect that? I mean, this is a stadium that's right outside of Washington in the dmv, a region that's full of federal employees that have faced furloughs, that are working without paying. They should have anticipated that. But in terms of being a turning point, I think something may have happened. They have made so many changes so fast that it's almost like the American public was concussed totally. You know, I mean, literally, like kind of rattling in the brain. And it took a while to sort of understand, okay, how do we fight back against this? How do we push back against this? You talked about purpose. I would add possibility to that. I think this is changed this week that people see that the culmination of the no Kings rallies, which led to the election, which led to people thinking perhaps looking now at the midterms down the road, that there's something that you can do about this, that you don't just have to sit back and take it. There are ways that you can push back. There are ways that you can find community. There are ways that you can organize and push back against something. And so I do think that this was a term.
- [38:58]
Nicole Wallace
Well, and to your point, what's so amazing is more people self identify as part of the no Kings movement than maga.
- [39:04]
Michelle Norris
Yes.
- [39:05]
Nicole Wallace
And he control. We cover him as all powerful and he has a mountain of power. He just indicted to James and Jim Comey without evidence.
- [39:12]
Michelle Norris
He said that he won with a mandate. It was actually the closest election in many decades.
- [39:15]
Nicole Wallace
Correct.
- [39:16]
Michelle Norris
But he has a way of bending reality and controlling the narrative. And I think it's harder and harder for him to do that because of the pain points that he's forcing on the American public.
- [39:27]
Nicole Wallace
And the fact that that seems to have jolted, to your point, sort of jolted people out of the. The days no one's going anywhere to Sneak in a break much more with this conversation. On the other side.
- [39:41]
Jumba Casino Announcer
He made millions of dollars on the backs of telling their stories, and then he turned his damn back on those very people who he likes to write about and claim as his own. Here's another thing J.D. vance claims. He claims to be a person of faith. I know my Bible, and my Bible teaches us that we are to love thy neighbor and we are to feed the hungry. Deuteronomy says, if you see a person who is in need, you don't give them a clenched fist. You open up your hand. So for JD Vance now to turn around after claiming all these things his whole life and literally go to court to stop hungry people from eating, that is not only phony, it is shameful.
- [40:36]
Nicole Wallace
Claire, you pointed out the Shapiro JD Vance face off. I'm here for it. This is the Josh Shapiro who we haven't seen a ton of over the last year. This was a very effective Josh Shapiro. All the political skills that had him talked about as a possible vp, as a future possible presidential contender. It's also Josh Shapiro making an argument that the vast majority of human beings agree with because Trump didn't just cut off SNAP funding, he's gone to court to make sure that nobody, nobody allows food assistance. I mean, it's cartoonishly. To call it villainous is almost mean to the depictions of villains in some Marvel movies. I mean, what is this?
- [41:31]
Claire McCaskill
You know, I think of the pictures of Trump surrounded by people of faith, ministers and pastors laying hands on him and praying. And when you realize that what this guy's been doing the last two weeks, he's not just been saying, we can't pay SNAP benefits because the government shut down. He's saying to states, if you somehow manage to feed the hungry, we are going to punish you.
- [41:59]
Commercial Announcer
You.
- [42:00]
Claire McCaskill
Now, I don't know where that fits in. Like Josh Shapiro said in, in any Christian interpretation of the Bible, I don't know how you punish people for feeding the hungry. And that's what he was trying to do. It is stunning, especially if it's backdropped against all of his excesses right now. The Gatsby party, the gilded ballroom, the marble bathroom, all of these things. It is so tone deaf. Clearly, he's got nobody around him telling him that he's not reading the room.
- [42:37]
Nicole Wallace
You get the last word.
- [42:39]
Michelle Norris
Well, you know, you mentioned religion. Many of the people that he had laying hands on him. I was just in the Midwest. Some of those same churches are now being asked to step up to help feed the hungry, filling in the holes from the food banks. And that changes the calculus in the way you think about politics when you actually feeding your congregation because the person that you supported, that you helped put in office is refusing, is going to court to refuse to provide snap benefits to the people who need it. And I think down the way, you might see a smaller number of people who are willing to step up and lay hands on this man. In fact, they might give him a Heisman instead.
- [43:17]
Nicole Wallace
But it's all part of your first point, which is sort of this waking up, waking up to reality, to Trump revealing himself because for whatever reason, no one around him pumping the brakes. Two of my favorite humans, Claire and Michelle, thank you so much for spending time with us. Quick break. We'll be right back. Today, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announced that the US Struck two more boats in the Pacific Ocean, killing six people on board. These latest strikes took place Sunday and all 76 people have been killed in 19 different strikes since the bombing campaign began in September. Hegseth announced the strikes on social media without citing any evidence that the boats were smuggling drugs, instead making rather vague claims about, quote, intelligence. New York Times reports this, quote, a wide range of specialists in laws governing the use of force have denounced the killings as illegal because the US Military is not allowed to intentionally target civilians who pose no threat of imminent violence, even those suspected of being criminals. And quote. We'll stay on top of that story. One more break. We'll be right back. Scott Galloway is everywhere. He's an entrepreneur, a best selling author and the host of three wildly popular podcasts. He's also incredibly thoughtful and insightful about our political moment right now. Here's what he told me about what surprised him the most about last week's election results.
- [44:42]
Kendall Tietz
It felt alien to wake up and have wins. I'm like, this feels good and alien. It felt more strange initially than good.
- [44:49]
Michelle Norris
Yeah.
- [44:49]
Kendall Tietz
The thing that was encouraging about it was not the victories, but the margins of victories. And actually it's the boring stuff and the turnout 100% and young people the way they went. I think actually it's the boring stuff that people don't notice. That's the most seminal thing. I think Prop 50 in California is actually the most important thing.
- [45:05]
Nicole Wallace
Me too. I said that all night. It was the only idea that was on the ballot. Everything else was a person. It was an idea. And it was an idea that Californians voted against a few years ago. The electorate went out and rejected it mid year redistricting. And they went out understanding the moment, understanding the message understanding a rather complicated narrative that involves something that a state a few states over did and voted for democracy. I thought it was unbelievably inspiring. He's much better than me. I'm sorry to show you more me than him, but be sure to check out the conversation with Scott Galloway on this week's episode of the Best People podcast. Scan the QR code on your screen to listen right now. As always, let me know what you think on Blue sky or Instagram. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful. Hey, Riley herbst here with 2311 racing, waiting for the bus, staring at traffic crawl hard pass I rev up Jumba Casino instead Fast spins, blazing winds, all fun, no downloads needed. Why let the clock drag when you can let the reels spin? Next stop jumbacasino.com let's jumbo. No purchase necessary.
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Jumba Casino Announcer
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Nicole Wallace
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