← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“A uniquely alarming moment”
01:28:44
Nicolle Wallace on the fourth consecutive day of protests against mass deportation in Southern California, including Trump’s latest move to mobilize 700 Marines to Los Angeles. Joined by: Jacob Soboroff, John Brennan, Claire McCaskill, former ICE Chief of Staff Jason Houser, Rep. Jimmy Panetta, Major General Randy Manner, John Heilemann, Eddie Glaude, Gadi Schwartz, and Denver Riggleman.
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- [00:08]
Nicole Wallace
Hi there, everybody. It's 4 o' clock in New York. We are in the midst of a uniquely alarming moment. Right. A moment where the President of the United States sees an unfolding situation as a political opportunity, one for him to advance his goal of strengthening and fortifying his grip on power. Because what's happening in Los Angeles is not just about immigration. We all know that President Barack Obama carried out more deportations in his eight years in any administration at a pace quicker than even Donald Trump's first term. Do you remember ICE raids in the middle of cities by men wearing paramilitary gear? And then Obama sending in the National Guard over the objections of governors? Yeah, neither do I, because that never happened. Do you know why it never happened? It never happened because carrying out a legal and orderly and effective immigration policy isn't at all what Trump is doing. Trump seems from the outside to be producing theater. And maybe it's to distract. Maybe it's to distract us from talking about Elon Musk's tweet with his unsubstantiated allegations about Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, something we on the outside have seen no proof of. Maybe it's to distract from his plunging approval ratings on the economy, trade inflation, even immigration. Maybe he's trying to distract us from covering his stalled agenda in Congress. That's actually what the big fight with Elon Musk started over. Maybe he wants to distract us from covering the debacle of a trade war he. He started. Or the debacle of 90 deals in 90 days to which there is five, like, 0.5 deals. 0.5. Former ICE official Jason Hauser tells the New York Times this quote, right now, the government is burning thousands of federal law enforcement hours on operations that privilege political objectives over public safety, attacking constitutional protections like due process and free speech, as they do. If this administration does not correct course, it will lock the country into a future of weaker enforcement, lowered trust in public safety officials, and greater risk to Americans collective safety. Hauser will join our program in the next block. He wrote that two months ago, before Donald Trump's Rubicon Crossing moment. This weekend, Donald Trump's decision to federalize and deploy the National Guard over the objections of of California's Governor Gavin Newsom, with 500 Marines on standby amid protests against raids by ICE is something the likes of which we haven't seen in the United States of America since the year 1965. The last American president to deploy the National Guard without a request from a state's governor was Lyndon B. Johnson, and he did it in that instance, to protect civil rights protesters in Alabama, California's Governor Gavin Newsom had this to say about this move from Donald Trump.
- [03:22]
Gavin Newsom
I've worked with the National Guard.
- [03:23]
Nicole Wallace
We've deployed the National Guard.
- [03:25]
John Kelly
We did three plus thousand folks have.
- [03:27]
Gavin Newsom
Been doing logistics work and fire recovery.
- [03:29]
Nicole Wallace
Work, and they're fighting the fires. The rattlesnake teams, we did the same.
- [03:32]
John Kelly
Back in George Floyd. We have no problem working collaboratively in a mutual aid system with local law enforcement.
- [03:38]
Nicole Wallace
But there's a protocol, there's a process.
- [03:40]
John Kelly
He didn't care about that. And the worst part, he completely lied.
- [03:43]
Gavin Newsom
He said in a tweet that everything's now saf, everything's fine.
- [03:47]
John Kelly
Is that the case, Mr. Trump?
- [03:49]
Gavin Newsom
He said, because he deployed the National Guard. The Guard hadn't even been deployed when he said this. It's Orwellian, simply lying to people.
- [03:57]
Nicole Wallace
Unconstitutional, illegal act. His mess, we're trying to clean it up. Today, the state of California sued the Trump administration over the deployment of the National Guard. He and other officials insist that the deployment has only made a volatile situation worse, something that they could have handled on their own. The New York Times reports this about the situation on the ground before Trump, before Trump sends in the National Guard, quote. Although some demonstrations have been unruly, local authorities in Los Angeles county did not indicate during the day that they needed federal assistance. The reality on the ground did not and does not matter to the Trump administration. The New York Times reports this as well. On social media, Trump, his aides and allies have sought to frame the demonstrations against immigration officials on their own terms. They have shared images and videos of the most violent episodes, focusing particularly on examples of protesters lashing out at federal agents, even as many remained peaceful. At the White House this morning, Trump called the protesters, quote, insurrectionists. In short, he is looking for amao to justify invoking the Insurrection act and moving closer to something he has talked about doing for a long time, using the military against the, quote, enemy within. Here's what his former chief of staff, John Kelly, had to say in terms of a warning about this moment.
- [05:25]
John Kelly
And I think this issue of using the military to go after American citizens is one of those things I think is a very, very bad thing, even to say it for political purposes, to get elected. I think it's a very, very bad thing, let alone actually doing it. When I was in the White House, for that matter, dhs, I was.
- [05:49]
Nicole Wallace
You.
- [05:50]
John Kelly
Know, originally conversation would be, you know, Mr. President, that's outside your authority, or, you know, that's, you know, that's a routine use. You really don't want to do that inside the United States. But now that he's talking about it as I'm going to do it is again, it's disturbing again.
- [06:13]
Nicole Wallace
That's a warning given by General John Kelly ahead of last November's election about what Trump sought to do the first time that he, Kelly and others stopped him from doing and why the impact it would have on the military. But Donald Trump gave the game away when he was asked on Saturday about sending in troops. Take a listen.
- [06:35]
Donald Trump
Even if you're not planning to invoke.
- [06:37]
Nicole Wallace
That Insurrection act, do you still plan to send troops? Well, we're going to have troops everywhere. We're not going to let this happen. We're going to have, quote, troops everywhere. They're going to be everywhere, active duty troops. Trump promises to bring what's happening in Los Angeles right now to Trump's word, quote, we're going to have troops everywhere to everywhere. Today, a new round, a fourth day of protests is underway right now in the wake of the ICE raids across the city. One of those raids took place at a Home Depot parking lot. Washington Post reports this about that raid. Quote, six migrants who said they were present recounted how federal immigration authorities began handcuffing anyone they could grab in one of several raids in the city that would spark a wave of unrest and leave immigrant workers of all stripes. Jolted one migrant saying this, quote, they were just grabbing people. They didn't ask questions. They didn't know if any of us were in any kind of immigration process. The nation's second largest city a flashpoint today in both Trump's immigration crackdown and his war on the rule of law. It's where we begin today with NBC's Jacob Sobra, who is at the site of one of the ICE raids that took place on Friday that sparked the initial protests. Can you do one thing before you brilliantly take us into this moment? Can you just rewind the tape a little bit and reset me on what has happened there over the weekend?
- [08:05]
Jacob Soboroff
Yeah, of course, Nicole. And your introduction was really wonderful because I think what it sets up so perfectly is how unusual and how unprecedented the size and the scale and the scope of the immigration enforcement operations that took place in Los Angeles, starting with right here at this Home Depot in Cypress park at 7 o' clock, 7:15, 7:30 on Friday morning were and why they led to those protests. The big picture is Los Angeles is a so called majority minority city in a majority minority state. There are more people of color that live in Los Angeles than white people at this point. And many of those people are undocumented, by some counts. 10% of the population of LA county, one of the largest counties, the largest county by population in the United States, is undocumented, maybe as many as a million people. Those people are our neighbors, our coworkers, our classmates, our friends, our parishioners, fellow parishioners in churches. They are part of the fabric of the city of Los Angeles, and not in the last many decades under Democratic nor Republican presidents, despite the fact that you had presidents with big deportation programs, Democratic and Republican, as you have so often reported. Have we seen the type of immigration enforcement we saw play out on the streets of Los Angeles on Friday. And that struck fear into the heart of not just the undocumented community here, but of many US Citizen family members of undocumented people and many US Citizens who know those people. Because that is removing people from this community who have been here, if not their entire life, virtually their entire lives. There are so many mixed status families that live in Los Angeles that might have an undocumented parent or relative and U.S. citizen child or cousin who. We've talked about this before. The family separation policy of the first Trump administration in 2018 was a deliberate ripping apart of parents and children at the border to separate those families and inflict pain on those families. But when I say mass deportation is family separation, when I say those signs that were held up on the floor of the Republican convention, as I talked to you from the floor of that convention, was a sign of what was to come and why. That is also a form of family separation. It is family separation in the interior. It's taking parents away from their children not at the border and not in detention centers, but at a Home Depot on a street corner, or outside of a school, or at a workplace in the fashion district where they might be working in a factory, it's a different form of family separation. And exactly the intent of this administration, modeled after Nicole Dwight D. Eisenhower's 1954 operation with a name so racist, I'm not going to say it here to you right now, but that resulted in a million Mexicans and some Mexican Americans being sent to Mexico in the wake of the Bracero program, coming here legally in the 1950s. That's what the Trump administration is modeling this program after. That's their stated goal. They've talked about it. And so now we're seeing it effectuated on the streets of the largest county in America, second largest city in America, with the largest undocumented Population in America where those people interact. I say those people, we, we all interact on a daily basis here. And it has terrified so many people, which is why you saw people before the protests turned violent. And there were certainly violence associated with those protests before the protests turned violent. A largely peaceful protest too, actually, that converged in front of the Metropolitan Detention center where so many of those people were picked up by ICE at locations like this in order to say this is not acceptable for the people of Los Angeles, the undocumented people, the documented people, everyone who knows how important that community is to the fabric of this one.
- [11:58]
Nicole Wallace
Nicole Jacob, what is the current understanding of who's being targeted by Trump and ice?
- [12:09]
Jacob Soboroff
Well, Tom Homan told me it's no longer just the worst of the worst. I talked to Tom Homan on Saturday night. I met him after some of those enforcement operations that unfolded. And you know, what's in the press today is that he and Gavin Newsom are going back and forth about the potential arrest of, of government officials, you know, Democrats here in California, which he said he would only do. You know, I want to make clear if they got in between a nice operation and blocked it. But the other thing that he said to me is that those types of operations are going to unfold every day and they're not just going to be the most violent offenders. They're not just going to be the quote, unquote, so called worst of the worst. They're going to be the people that stand on corners like this. Which brings me to being at Home Depot. So let me explain to you what, what you're looking at. This is a neighborhood called Cypress park in Los Angeles. Obviously this is a Home Depot on corners just like this. Nicole, Every single day. And I dread, this is not far from where I live. Actually. Day laborers stand on corners just like this and they look for work. They look for work in people's homes, in places of work all across Los Angeles to do tasks menial and important, to get a good day's, a decent day's wage. What happened on Monday morning at 7 o' clock, 7:30 was reportedly around 10:20, 30, maybe more ICE agents or federal agents with masks on came from around the back corner of this Home Depot and walked to basically a place where many of the day laborers wait in order to get picked up for work. They chased those day laborers, some of them ran across this street here, which is Figueroa main thoroughfare, across the street to that McDonald's, and did everything they could to get away from that enforcement operation. By ice. They were terrified. There's one person here, Nicole, who I want to introduce you to, who can explain to you and help us all understand what that means to this community is Pablo Alvarado, who is the co executive director of the National Day Laborers Organizing. Pablo, come in here. Pablo. The first thing I want to say, Nicole, is and thank you for doing this. Pablo runs Endlon, which by and large, over the course of the last six months in Los Angeles, been focused on the recovery from the wildfires. Day laborers every day have been engaged in the wildfire recovery. And now all of a sudden, we're talking about unprecedented enforcement operations in Los Angeles. Pavel, let's just start with what's the significance of what played out on this street corner on Friday which led to the protests that we saw?
- [14:41]
Nicole Wallace
The significance is the terror, the fear, the sadness, the splitting of families that the community has experienced. And it gets to the core of your heart when you know who the people who look for work here are. These are parents, our neighbors. And these are people who send their kids to the same schools like everybody else.
- [15:09]
Jacob Soboroff
There's a high school just down the street. A very good chance that some of the workers that stand on this send their US Citizen children to the high school down the street.
- [15:16]
Nicole Wallace
That's correct. And every day you're gonna. There are dozens and dozens of places like this day labels have become part of the landscape of Los Angeles. They're part of the economy. They are integrated, part of the socioeconomic fabric of the neighborhoods everywhere in this city. And it's also inherent to the business model of Home Depot. People pick up their materials and then they pick up the workers and they leave.
- [15:42]
Jacob Soboroff
It's very why Home Depot allows these workers to stand on the cor here, that's.
- [15:45]
Nicole Wallace
It's, it's very convenient for Home Depot. In fact, oftentimes Home Depot has said that day labors are good for them. But it also depends on what kind of a store manager they have. Oftentimes the store managers have different kinds of sentiments in their hearts, and that's the way they operate.
- [16:01]
Jacob Soboroff
Can you describe the level of fear and not just the day laborer community. How many day laborers, by the way, are there in Los Angeles?
- [16:07]
Nicole Wallace
It is estimated There are about 25,000 day laborers on a daily basis looking for work. That's a snapshot.
- [16:15]
Jacob Soboroff
That's on a given day, 25,000 people. Have you ever, in your tenure running National Day Laborers Organizing Network, seen the scale and the scope of enforcement activities targeting day laborers who, you know, for all intents and purposes are here looking for work. They're not here committing violent crimes. They're not here as the worst of the worst, as the administration was initially saying they were targeting. Talk to us about them.
- [16:40]
Nicole Wallace
It's happened, but not as often as it's happening right now. And the reason why they don't do it often is because in order to catch one person, they probably need 20 agents, because the minute that they come in, and by the way, it becomes a mess because people start running in every direction. It's a public safety situation that it's chaos that they create when they come here.
- [17:03]
Jacob Soboroff
What is your impression, understanding feelings, about the protests that went to the streets? Eventually, they became violent in the clashes with law enforcement. But the initial protests were to support the men and women who stand on corners like this. What did that mean to you?
- [17:18]
Nicole Wallace
Well, we want people to protest, and we are asking particularly those who benefit from the labor of immigrants to come out. This is the time for them, if they're privileged enough and they're safe to come and protest, to come in, show up in Home Depot and protect vulnerable people. That's what we want. But we want to make sure that it's peaceful and what the role of a protest is, to not just to denounce the oppressor, the people who are perpetrating the violence, but also to make visible the suffering that the communities are going through.
- [17:50]
Jacob Soboroff
Manuel Alvarado, so good to see you. Thank you very much for being here. It's such an important part of the story that I think everybody needs to understand. So thank you. Thank you very much, Nicole. I can't emphasize that enough. The people who are out protesting are protesting because of workers like the ones that Pablo represents on a daily basis, 25,000 of them, he said that come here to corners like this just to lend a hand to other people in this community. And instead, now they become targets of the Trump administration, which is why you have seen so many people out on the streets of Los Angeles outraged and terrified about what the. What the future of the next couple of days, couple of weeks hold.
- [18:24]
Nicole Wallace
I was watching your live report and thinking if more people had consumed this at a human level, the dehumanization that is required for the people to carry out the raids wouldn't have the support that it has. We'll do our best while we're on the air to try to correct that ratio of real people and real stories and the political posturing. Do me this favor. You know, we're here for another hour and 45 minutes. Wave your arms and come back and join us if anything develops on your end.
- [18:56]
Jacob Soboroff
You have yourself a deal. Thank you, Nicole.
- [18:58]
Nicole Wallace
Thank you, my friend. There's been news that has broken since we've been on the air. Let me tell you about that really quick as we go to break, 700 marines have been mobilized from 29 palms. We'll get reaction from former CIA Director John Brennan, former U.S. senator Claire McCaskill to that. We'll also talk with a former ICE official on the chaos the Trump White House has created, manufactured into day to day life for people here legally and illegally, as well as the immigration system and process and the risk it poses to the entire fabric of our economy and our very democracy. And later in the broadcast, we'll talk to California's attorney general on the lawsuit that was just filed about all this against the Trump administration. We'll have all that breaking news and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Today.
- [19:48]
Jen Psaki
MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.
- [19:51]
Nicole Wallace
We've never experienced a moment like this in our country and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even throughout the from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine. The Briefing with Jen Psaki, Tuesday through.
- [20:14]
Jen Psaki
Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [20:18]
Chris Hayes
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [20:19]
Jacob Soboroff
This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening?
- [20:21]
Chris Hayes
Co host of the Bloomberg Odd Lots podcast, Joe Weisenthal.
- [20:25]
Jacob Soboroff
There's the story of the real economy and then there's the story of the financial markets. But I also think there is this sort of distinction and maybe you could call it political, maybe you could call it geopolitical, I'm not sure. So this other story, which is just about Trump the character as he tries to negotiate in the world and establish.
- [20:43]
John Kelly
Himself right as the master negotiator, which.
- [20:46]
Jacob Soboroff
He seems to see himself as a deals person, that's this week on why is this Happening?
- [20:51]
Chris Hayes
Search for why is this Happening? We're listening right now. And follow.
- [20:56]
Nicole Wallace
Feel tough with your assault.
- [20:58]
John Kelly
Rifles and your sticks.
- [20:59]
Nicole Wallace
You should be standing here with us. Stand with us. You're on the wrong side of history. We know you got a job to do, but you took an oath to.
- [21:08]
John Kelly
The Constitution not to the fascists in the White House.
- [21:13]
Nicole Wallace
Think about what you're doing now.
- [21:15]
Pablo Alvarado
Think about what this means coming into our community.
- [21:20]
John Kelly
Peaceful community, people working their jobs.
- [21:24]
Nicole Wallace
They send in men and military fatigues.
- [21:28]
John Kelly
Weapons of war into our communities.
- [21:32]
Nicole Wallace
And you stand here and you allow it. I am sick and tired of it. You should be sick and tired of it. You think any of these people in.
- [21:42]
John Kelly
The White House sending you these commands.
- [21:44]
Nicole Wallace
Give a about you?
- [21:48]
John Kelly
Not one of them. Do they laugh at you. Our president laughs at you.
- [21:52]
Nicole Wallace
He calls you fool. He said the people who died overseas in the military, we're chubs.
- [22:00]
John Kelly
That's who you're defending right now.
- [22:02]
Nicole Wallace
Every last think about your place in.
- [22:07]
John Kelly
History, ladies and gentlemen.
- [22:11]
Nicole Wallace
Ask yourself when you wake up tomorrow, I don't know if you have kids. Ask yourself the future you want for your children. Is it this? You can answer me. Is it this tragic moment in our country's history encapsulated there? My protester on Sunday making a face to face direct plea to members of the U.S. national Guard deployed in Los Angeles, adding to their numbers, news just breaking in the last 15 minutes that 700 Marines have been mobilized. Director Brennan, your thoughts?
- [22:50]
Jen Psaki
Well, this is tragic on so many levels, Nicole. You know, as you pointed out in your introduction, nothing seems to be going well for Trump on his main policy agenda, whether it be on the economy or the budget or trade or tariffs or Ukraine or Gaza or China, whatever. And so I think what his tactic is just to then, since there's no positive motion on these fronts, cause commotion on the domestic front and appeal to his very nativist MAGA base and also to, you know, spark a confrontation and provoke a confrontation with the Democratic governor and mayor of Los Angeles. And so he's going up this escalatory ladder and the fact that he would federalize these troops, you know, despite the requests and the wishes of the governor, again, it just shows how, how much he just disregards not just precedents, protocol as well as, you know, law and order. But he just wants to flex his muscles and again, doing it against the immigrant, doing it against the undocumented workers. And as Jacob, I think so aptly said in his guests there, these are people who are interwoven into the local community. These are US Citizens and others who just rely on these individuals, whether it be for work or for parenting or support or whatever. And again, it just shows, I think, the heartlessness of the Trump administration, the lack of compassion, that he's going to do whatever he thinks necessary in order to continue to try to strengthen his political base. But again, I think now the mobilizing of these Marines, I think he's poised to again do further damage and to provoke greater conflict at a time when there is tensions in this community that never should have gotten to this point. It was that deployment of the National Guard, federalizing those troops that really I think did provoke the violence and the expansion of the confrontation here in Los Angeles.
- [24:58]
Nicole Wallace
Director Brennan and Claire McCaskill are with us. I want to introduce former Chief of Staff at Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Jason Hauser. It's a pleasure to get to talk to you. Your words have informed a lot of how we're approaching today and I want to read some more of them. You wrote this quote, every ICE agent dispatched to detain a non criminal farm worker, construction laborer or college student, many if not most of whom have legal standing to work and study in our communities, is an ICE agent not investigating fentanyl networks, cyber attacks, human trafficking or transnational gangs. Those are the actual bad actors who threaten American safety and sovereignty. I'd just love to hear from you, Jason, on this moment.
- [25:46]
Jason Hauser
Yeah, I mean, let's just. Thank you for having me. Let's just level set this now that the incidents in LA over the last few days is not just over an issue or activity over the last 48 to 72 hours, a few days. It is a buildup of over 100 days now of short sighted, sort of, quite frankly, racist policies being directed by the White House. And we have a situation here where the White House is choosing quotas of arrests of non criminal migrants, sometimes grandmothers, vulnerable populations, children, those that can't even possibly be removed by ice. They're prioritizing those arrests over carrying out not only ICE operations that protect us from national security and public safety threats, but they're now turning the apparatus of federal law enforcement, so dismantling investigations and the Joint terrorism task forces and drug interdiction agencies and collaboration of law enforcement from state and local law enforcement with the federal agencies. We are less safe when we have these sort of activities. And now we hear today that they're going to be putting Marine Corps out there. I mean the Marines have protect our nation every day. And the idea that they're now going to be tactically moving on the streets of la, it raises so many questions of how they'll be able to carry that out in collaboration with ice. What the rules of engagement will be, what the command structure will be, how will they communicate, have they been trained in de escalation and immigration enforcement? These are extremely Dangerous times. And clearly the individuals in the White House do not take these issues seriously. ICE has an important national security mission. There are people that want to take advantage of our immigration system. Our immigration system is broken. But this White House is continuously choosing divisiveness over quite only the safety of migrants, but also the safety of ICE officers. To be out in these tactical situations is putting them at risk. And they are then not focused on.
- [27:46]
Nicole Wallace
Those public safety threats, Jason, where the public I think thought they were getting what they thought they wanted. I mean the New York Times Siena poll number on do you support deporting adjudicated violent criminals? Is pretty high. The number is 87%. The numbers for deporting people who have not committed crimes, who are married to Americans, who have been here a long time or who have jobs here, who have kids here, are all less than 15% of all Americans. So it appears from what we understand about the folks they're targeting, they're targeting people in operations that have the support of less than 15% of all Americans. How do you operationalize the US military in an operation with such minority support from such an extreme part of the country? How much risk are we putting our men and women of the military in?
- [28:38]
Jason Hauser
It is going to amplify the risk to federal law enforcement, to ICE agents. Because when you begin blending these operations with even just amongst lending ICE operations with state and local assets or other federal agencies, there's risk there. Both training and process procedures and operation protocols aren't the same. Now you're overlaying young service members and Marines on top of that. You know, you can clearly foresee how this administration has wanted to get to this point. There's not. They have talked about this for months. They wanted to use the military as the tip of the spear to carry out these non criminal arrests. You're going to see potentially the military use for detention support services, security services, services sort of bringing the armored vehicles along with operations and that is just going to amp apply the divisiveness. It is not making us more safe, you know, clear. Over the last few months ICE has arrested highest number of arrests in years. But that doesn't lead to public safety. Where ICE's work is important is when you're focused on those individuals that have taken advantage of our system that are bringing drugs into our country, trafficking, counterterrorism, etc. These large sweeps of collateral arrests, many of these migrants are being released, they're not being removed and they had legal status in this country for years, if not decades. Imagine you like this sort of talk within the Pentagon about lethality and the eth. The warrior ethos going into Home Depot parking lots with Marine Corps battalions is not what the American people have asked for. What they have asked for is fixing a broken immigration system and providing pathways where there's clear accountability within the system. There's enforcement when there needs to be and there's oversight. And what we've seen in the last hundred days is this administration turning off our legal immigration system, creating arrest quotas, sort of take diverting federal law enforcement away from terrorists and human trafficking and sort of sowing this divisiveness, shipping migrants off to sea terrorist facilities or shipping migrants trying to get them to South Sudan where you now have ICE officers living in a storage container in Djibouti, sitting with migrants that they were trying to sip to South Sudan. None of this is what the American people have signed up for. It is not creating a system that functions and it's not creating a focus on where Americans all agree in large numbers, where the public safety threats are.
- [31:18]
Nicole Wallace
Claire McCaskill they seem to have made a lot of mistakes. By their own telling. The Trump administration is our source on the mistaken deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. The Trump administration is our source on the mistaken or ill advised flights to Guantanamo that were quickly sent back to the states. The fact that they are sort of failing in full view makes clear that their own actions are not necessarily well thought through. What do you make of this weekend's escalation and the news in the last 15 minutes that 700 Marines have been mobilized?
- [31:57]
Donald Trump
Well, let's go through a few basic facts and values here. Peaceful protest is as American as apple pie. It is an important part of the character of this country and who we are. Secondly, 95, upwards of 95% of crime in this country is handled by state and local officials, not federal officials. Thirdly, those police departments in large cities are the best trained people in the world when it comes to handling crowd control and de escalation. There were about 100 people at the beginning of this, 27 of them were arrested and they will be prosecuted. There will be video, they will be identified, people who threw rocks and lit fire to cars. They will be prosecuted by state and local authorities in California. So what is really going on here is really a political show. It is all about Trump escalating rather than de escalating. And I just, I want to say, Nicole, I beg people who feel passionately about this topic to remain peaceful. Don't give Trump the opportunity. And I'M very proud of our network because I was gritting my teeth when I came on today. I was worried we'd see a lot of B roll of some of the violent episodes. Not that that shouldn't be covered. Of course there were violent episodes, but there's a tendency sometimes I watch what happened in Ferguson. There were some violent episodes in Ferguson that B roll ran incessantly long after things calm down, long after there was really just peaceful protesting going on. And of course, you know, the proud boys showed up in Ferguson at one point. You know, there were people that wanted to escalate it. And right now, unfortunately, the person who wants to escalate it the most is the president of the United States. And what we're losing here is we're losing what this military should be doing. We're losing what I should be doing. As Jason just pointed out, we're losing the energy that the local and federal officials are having. The local, state and local officials are having to spend managing this on behalf of people who've come in there that don't even know what they're doing when it comes to crowd control or de escalation. So everything about this should be on Donald Trump's lap. Every bad thing that happens, they're not picking up criminals. They're trying to make Stephen Miller's quota. 3,000 people a day, that's all they're trying to do. And they don't care who they sweep up in the process has nothing to do with getting criminals.
- [34:48]
Nicole Wallace
Claire and Director Brennan, stay with me. Jason, please stay close to a camera over these coming days. We're going to need you. Thank you for what you wrote and thank you for joining us to talk about it today. Up next for us with the administration's escalation of deploying hundreds of Marines this hour, we'll talk to a member of Congress about that and the Republicans who are rallying around these actions from this president. Much more ahead. Don't go anywhere today.
- [35:19]
John Kelly
Could we really see active duty Marines.
- [35:21]
Nicole Wallace
On the streets of Los Angeles? You know, one of our core principles is maintaining, maintaining peace through strength.
- [35:26]
Jacob Soboroff
We do that on foreign affairs and.
- [35:28]
Nicole Wallace
Domestic affairs as well.
- [35:29]
Gavin Newsom
I don't think that's heavy handed.
- [35:30]
Nicole Wallace
I think that's an important.
- [35:32]
John Kelly
Marines into the streets of an American.
- [35:34]
Nicole Wallace
City is heavy handed. We have to be prepared to do what is necessary. And I think the notice that that might happen might have the deterring effect. So here we are, Republicans rallying behind Donald Trump's use of the military in the cities and towns and streets of American cities against civilians in Los Angeles. He enabled that as the city of Los Angeles braces for a fourth day of protests over the ICE raids just in the last hour, as we've reported, 700 marines have been mobilized to join the thousands of National Guard troops who were activated by Donald Trump over the weekend against the wishes of California's Governor Gavin Newsom and Los Angeles Mayor Karen Pass. The deployment of the Marines is a significant escalation by Donald Trump, and his willingness to use the military as a show of force comes as a bookend almost to that military parade he staged for his own birthday. Joining our coverage is former Navy intelligence officer, Democratic Congressman Jimmy Panetta of California. Congressman, how do you protect the military from becoming props in Donald Trump's second presidency?
- [36:43]
Jimmy Panetta
This, this is an issue that we've dealt with and we're going to have to continue dealing with, especially with this administration that, as you said, it just uses it as basically props and chess pieces for this larger game. I mean, what, what we're seeing right now is that this situation in Los Angeles, which could easily spread to other parts of the country, is about retribution, it's about provocation, and it's about distraction. It's about retribution because the President doesn't like California, he doesn't like its politics, he doesn't like his policies. And to be frank, California doesn't like the president, so this is how he's acting. Second, it's about provocation. It's about the president basically sending the military in without any request from the governor or the local government, local officials to, in order to set the framework to get this fight. This is the type of fight the president and Stephen Miller want to then provoke these protesters into this violence and to have this situation in which he can then justify the situation. And then, third, it's about distraction. It's about distraction of this president's failed domestic policies, this failed bill that's going to be. That's being determined right now in the Senate. It's about his failed foreign policies and it's about this covering up this pathetic row between the President and the richest man in the world that we saw last week.
- [38:01]
Nicole Wallace
Kurzman, can you explain a little bit about how they've created all the circumstances to even call it a crisis? By changing the protective status of people in this country at one point, legally or on a legal pathway, he's created his own pool of potential targets for deportations. And in most cases, from what we've seen in the court cases, not even back to their home countries.
- [38:25]
Jimmy Panetta
Yeah, I mean, this is a president who will always move the goalpost. I mean, we see it, we've seen it throughout Trump 1.0. We see it now in Trump 2.0. Especially when you have people like Stephen Miller who basically have certain goals when it comes to immigration, how he can be and know, he knows that he has the President's ear. And so you're seeing that when basically them telling it, look, we want violent and criminals, that's who we want to target. But you see how that can clearly get to hardworking immigrants. And, but the President needs to understand is that when you have these type of deportation policies that go after immigrants like this, and look, I understand violent criminals and if you're a gang member, you got to go. But, but the fact is, is that when you start spreading that policy, moving these goalposts, you're going to affect our economy, you're going to affect our community, you're going to affect our society. As you're seeing right now, coming from the central coast of California, from a family of immigrants, we value immigration, we value the contributions that they have to our economy and that they're the backbone of our agricultural industry, of our healthcare industry, of, of our construction industry. And that when you have a president come in with these types of heavy handed measures and sort of this broad swath of going after others there, of course you're going to see protests. You bet. We in California are proud of our immigrants, but we're also proud of the Constitution. And so we're going to stand up for that. And that's why you're seeing these, these protests in a peaceful manner. However, when you send the National Guard in and when you send Marines in, you're going to provoke a reaction. And unfortunately that's going to lead to the scenes that we're seeing right now on the streets of Los Angeles that could spread to other parts of the country very easily.
- [40:13]
Nicole Wallace
Do you and your colleagues have any plans to join the protesters to make the points you just made here?
- [40:18]
Jimmy Panetta
Look, I will always join protesters who are peaceful in their actions and I think that's important that we continue to do that. We saw it this weekend with my colleagues down there in Los Angeles. And when it's in their districts, it's understandable how those types, how those members will go out and join them. And I think we need to continue to do it. But at the same time, these protests must be done in a peaceful manner. You're seeing that called upon from our senators to the Congress members, to the mayor. They have to be done in a peaceful manner. We cannot resort to violence when it comes to making sure that our immigrants are protected, making sure that our due process rights are protected.
- [40:56]
Nicole Wallace
Congressman Jimmy Panetta, thank you for spending some time with us today. We're going to see again one more break and we'll be back with Director John Brennan and Claire McCaskill on the other side. Director Brennan, deploying active duty troops on the streets of American cities was the red line for General John Kelly. It's what got him to speak out ahead of the election for the first time ever in an interview. There's also a red line for Mark Esper, Trump's first secretary of defense after Secretary Mattis left, as well as former Chairman of Joint Chiefs Mark Milley. There were confrontations in the Oval Office with Trump and Stephen Miller about doing just this. We're 120 or 30 days in and he's now crossed that red line. Where are we heading?
- [41:42]
Jen Psaki
Nowhere good, Nicole. It should be a red line for everyone. That's not to deploy US Forces domestically here. It's clear that Donald Trump is tearing this country apart. He's pitting American citizens against one another. The National Guard men and women who have been deployed to the streets of Los Angeles. They're citizens of California. I'm sure they don't like the idea that they have to fulfill their obligations as National Guards people, despite the recommendations, the strong recommendation of the governor and the mayor not to do that. But Donald Trump is determined to have this confrontation and provoke confrontation. And that's why just listening to Mike Johnson basically say it's okay to deploy US Military forces domestically here against American citizens, I mean, this just after 120 days or so of this administration, I can just imagine where it's going to go over the next 120 days and over the next three and a half years. And I'm hoping that there's going to be individuals of principle in the Republican Party who are going to say enough is enough. But I've lost faith in so many of them who have just been willing to give Donald Trump every everything he wants again, irrespective of law and order, irrespective of the Constitution, irrespective of common sense and irrespective of what keeps this country together, which is the people that keep us together. And again, I think Donald Trump is going down this road intentionally again to try to provoke these types of confrontations. That's going to go nowhere good, Claire.
- [43:14]
Nicole Wallace
Donald Trump thinks this is a winner for him. He's Happy that this is what is on our air. He's happy we spent an hour on it and we plan to cover it in the next hour. But what he seems to have lost sight of is that the military is much more popular than he is, and there is no one in the military who thinks this is something they should be doing.
- [43:34]
Donald Trump
Yeah. First of all, time for everyone who is in the military to speak up, especially those powerful retired generals and four stars that are in a position to speak out. Might be a good time for the veterans that are Republicans that serve in Congress to find their voice. You know, I'm talking about you, Joni Ernst. I'm talking about you, Tom Cotton. I'm talking about you, Lindsey Graham. I'm talking about the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Roger Wicker. You know, this is a terrible thing to happen in our country. And here's how it's not going to be a winner. Nicole. If people remain peaceful, if they remain peaceful, then the visuals of this are going to be jarring to the American people to see military deployed and standing there threatening peaceful Americans that are letting their opinions be known. That won't work politically for Donald Trump. And that's the key here, is we all have to emphasize how important it is that people who are violent immediately be arrested and prosecuted and that the vast majority of the people who engage in these protests must remain committed to being peaceful. Because if they do, this will be a big political loser for Donald Trump.
- [44:52]
Nicole Wallace
We're going to sneak in one more break. We'll all be right back. On the other side, Director Brennan, I don't mean to be provocative, and of course, all the protests should be peaceful all the time, on any side, for any cause. But what are we to do about the violence being carried out against the most vulnerable people in our country, against people here, legally or illegally, by federal agents who aren't identifying themselves and are masked in many instances, we seem to have lost the check on that.
- [45:23]
Jen Psaki
Well, it really is an obligation on the part of federal officials not to follow an illegal order. And Trump's first administration, General Milley, the chairman of Joint Chiefs, realized that the US Military was being pulled down a political path, and he said no. And so I really, I do call upon General Kaine, who is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs right now, to realize what is happening here, that the Trump administration is going down a similar path. And so I do think it's incumbent upon all officials to make sure that they are not going to be following illegal orders. I know it's difficult for them to distinguish between what might be legal or not legal, as many things are going.
- [45:59]
Nicole Wallace
To the courts now.
- [46:01]
Jen Psaki
But I must say I think they need to make sure that they're not doing something that is going to further aggravate the situation and cause bloodshed and violence on the streets. And again, you know, the thought of bloodshed among US Citizens here is something that we all should view as abhorrent. And those in a position to do something to prevent it should do so.
- [46:20]
Nicole Wallace
Claire, I remember a few weeks into the second Trump term here, they fired a whole bunch, not all, but many of the JAG officers. So they're short staffed at best.
- [46:32]
Donald Trump
Well, yeah. And my understanding from friends of mine that I know through my service on the Armed Services Committee that some of the JAG officers that were fired were exactly the ones who would be pushing back on this, they're not going to put up with anybody telling them they they're outside, they're coloring outside the lines of the law. They're going to get rid of them and they're going to just put sycophants in there. That's why, you know, this could end in a tragedy. This could end with a member of a young member of the Marines shooting and killing an innocent American who's protesting. We could have that happen. That is a reality that could come to pass. Let's pray that it doesn't. And let's pray that men and women of courage stand up and speak out.
- [47:18]
Nicole Wallace
Director John Brennan and Claire McCaskill, thank you both so much for spending this hour with us today. Another quick break. Much more news ahead, including the attorney attorney general of California on the lawsuit against the Trump White House. Don't go anywhere.
- [47:36]
Donald Trump
Deploying federalized troops is a dangerous escalation.
- [47:40]
Nicole Wallace
But we need to be real about this.
- [47:43]
Pablo Alvarado
This is about another agenda.
- [47:45]
Nicole Wallace
It's not about public safety. There's clearly no plan and there is clearly no policy. Introducing the weak on msnbc. Join hosts Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for a spirited conversation challenging each other and our leaders about.
- [48:03]
Jimmy Panetta
The biggest issues of the day.
- [48:05]
Nicole Wallace
It's about knowing what you are for, who you are for.
- [48:08]
John Kelly
That's what politics is about.
- [48:09]
Nicole Wallace
It's engagement. We are going to dive deeper into the legal side of today's breaking news.
- [48:14]
Jen Psaki
The weeknight Monday through Friday at 7:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [48:22]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again, everybody. It's 5:00' clock in New York. It's 2:00' clock in Los Angeles, where this weekend saw a major escalation of Donald Trump's powers as he responded to protesters taking to the city streets, upset over the administration's ICE raids. Donald Trump deployed hundreds of National Guard troops to Los Angeles to respond to the protests, a move California's Governor Gavin Newsom has sued the Trump administration over. To understand just how truly extreme and extraordinary what Trump did was, let's get into some history and context. The National Guard, a state based military force, is routinely used to assist in emergency situations. Typically it is a natural disaster or severe weather event. In January, National Guard troops were used to help fight fires as they blaze through Los Angeles. In 2005, the National Guard helped in the recovery from Hurricane Katrina. But there are also rare times when the Guard is used to restore order. In the year 1992, then President George H.W. bush deployed troops in response to riots that broke out after Rodney King. The Rodney King riots, they're referred to, but he did so this is important after California's governor at the time asked him to do so. So what we saw this weekend was neither of those things. It was Trump calling in the National Guard in defiance of California's Governor Gavin Newsom's wishes, marking a huge escalation by the Commander in chief. The last time an American president did this, the only time an American president has done this without a request coming from the state's governor was in 1965. President Lyndon B. Johnson brought in the National Guard to protect those marching for civil rights, while Alabama's Governor George Wallace, a well known segregationist, refused. President Johnson said this at the time, quote, these forces should be adequate to assure the rights of American citizens to walk peaceably and safely without injury or loss of life from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama. Meanwhile, Governor Newsom this weekend called the deploying of troops by Donald Trump, quote, purposefully inflammatory and will only escalate tensions. He said, quote, this is the wrong mission and will erode public trust. Eroding public trust is exactly what the United States military and the men and women who serve in the military, this is not what they want. It's not what they need. Doesn't make any of us safer. Doesn't make them safe. Officers and all members of the military work extremely hard to keep a stark distinction between themselves and their politics. That's why it's so difficult and rare. When they speak out. Men and women of the military swear an oath to the Constitution, not to a specific president. There's even a law in place to stop presidents from using federal troops to enforce domestic policies. It's called the Posse Comitatus Act. But we saw this already during Trump 1.0. If not for people around him, people like Mark Esper, Mark Milley, John Kelly, Jim Mattis, people we may not know about just yet. If not for those men saying no, Donald Trump likely would have used the military against American citizens the first time. According to a book written by now New York Times reporter Michael Bender, quote, trump wanted to invoke the Insurrection act of 1807 and deploy active duty troops to Washington, D.C. amid protests following the murder of George Floyd last May. But then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley reportedly pushed back, arguing that there were legal constraints on the military interfering in domestic matters. Quote, I said you're in effing charge. Trump reportedly yelled at Milley, who shouted back, quote, well, I'm not in charge, God damn it. Milley said to others in the room, which included former Attorney General William Barr and former Defense Secretary Mark Esper. Quote, there's a room full of lawyers here. Will someone inform him of my legal responsibilities? End quote. That's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Retired National Guard Major General and member of the National Security Leaders for America, Randy Manor is here with me at the table for the hour. Chief political columnist, host of the In Politic podcast for Puck, MSNBC national affairs analyst John Heilman's here, and Princeton University professor MSNBC political analyst Eddie Glad's here. Let's start in history. In case events intervene, as they often do while we're on the air, what does this moment feel like?
- [52:59]
Pablo Alvarado
I've been trying to find the language. To be honest with you. It feels as if Trump's ambition is now in full view, that the scene has been set. The barbarians are rattling at the gates, the feckless Democrats refuse to defend the country, and the warriors will now sweep in, and the question is, will we play our parts? So it feels as if the ugly underbelly of the country.
- [53:26]
Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [53:27]
Pablo Alvarado
Is in full view. In some ways, yeah.
- [53:31]
John Kelly
It feels predictable because it's like we.
- [53:34]
Nicole Wallace
Should have predicted we'd be here because it was predicted.
- [53:37]
John Kelly
I mean, you know, in January, February, I was not alone, but I said, you know, look, there's going to be civil protests in the country over Trump at some point. We haven't seen them yet. Unlike in Trump 1.0, we got them right away with the women's march and on the basis.
- [53:52]
Nicole Wallace
And then the Muslim ban.
- [53:53]
John Kelly
Well, the Muslim ban, but. Yes, the Muslim ban, but really, I mean, the huge women's marches were the first right out of the gate. And I thought, well, There will be mass protests at some point. This is not one, by the way, but there will be. And the question at that point was, are you counting on option A, Donald Trump will say people have a First Amendment right to do this and will be restrained. Or option B, there will be some kind of overreaction, some kind of deployment of military force, something like what we're seeing right now as it happens. This is not a giant, peaceful protest. It was a small time, tiny thing on Friday that the LA Police Department had well in hand, which then Donald Trump, being the arsonist that he is, decided to go in and say, oh, there's some small kindling over there. Let me pour some gasoline on that and see what kind of flames I can make. Presidential pyromaniac. He just, you know, that's, that's his deal. But I think that this reminds me, in addition to being predicted, it reminds me of the moment you cited a second ago, which is the moment, again, totally different in the sense that the George Floyd protests were radically different in tone, substance, content, justification, everything else. But Donald Trump at that time in both Wisconsin, Minnesota and Oregon and Seattle, he kept talking about in D.C. and D.C. well, first in those places, the D.C. one came a little bit after, but he kept about talking. He was frustrated, you know, that he was not able to deploy. He wanted to deploy troops. He wanted to deploy the National Guard. He, I think, may, in a couple of those places, made a little bit of a federal fame towards them. He said that famous thing where he cited when the looting starts, the shooting starts, and then the thing happened in Washington where not only in Mike Bender's book, but other places he said he wanted to shoot. Why couldn't we just shoot some of these protesters in the leg? And if it wasn't for Mark Esperance, crucially, and Mark Milley, no doubt he would have done that. He was totally on his mind. And today he brought it up. Not the shooting in the leg, but the I should have gone into Minneapolis. He said today in his press availability, he's still thinking about that. And so given an opportunity, provoking an opportunity, now taking the opportunity, I just feel as though it's very redolent and reminiscent of that period. And the big difference, of course, as we pointed out a million times, there is no Mark Esper now, there is no Mark, Millie. Now what there is is Pete Hegseth. There's a bidding war among Trump's advisors to be more reflexively loyal to Trump, to do what they think he's gonna want. So they're all running around rather than saying, hey, the Constitution. Posse Comitatos. Can you imagine the words posse comitatus coming out of Higgs's mouth? No, but, you know, they're not. There's no restraints, there's no breaks. They're greasing the skids towards this conflict rather than. Than pulling on the brakes. And I think it's scary.
- [56:37]
Nicole Wallace
So with the table set, General, where does that leave the military?
- [56:42]
Gavin Newsom
I think there's two important things that we've got to remember. Doesn't matter whether you are on the left, on the right, or the center. There's two key issues at stake here. One is the freedom of speech, which is being impeded and it's being stomped on right now. And everyone across the country, no matter what your party, has to understand that. The second one is, it's kind of interesting why this particular federal government is actually stomping all over states rights whenever they espouse that local authority should have the ability to take care of their citizens as they see best. So I think those are the two big takeaways for every single American, let alone the implications for our readiness. And for the young men and women who are literally going to be side by side across a picket line, should we say from their neighbors, that they know that perhaps they even came from those very areas. So this is a very, very dangerous and contentious situation. It is totally an inappropriate use of the National Guard, particularly where the governor asked for no help. That's something that just from my position as the acting Vice Chief of the National Guard Bureau under President Obama, we would never have imagined ever doing this in this situation. To impede free speech, to impede what, quite frankly, for the majority of the people has been peaceful demonstrations.
- [58:10]
Nicole Wallace
Is it illegal? Is it an illegal order that. I mean, Trump has also mobilized 700 active duty Marines. Is that an illegal order?
- [58:19]
Gavin Newsom
So, no, these are not illegal orders, to the best of my knowledge. I've seen the one for the National Guard. I've not yet seen the one for the Marines, although I've read about it online. These are not illegal. The question is, are they appropriate? That's what we're talking about. And as we can even take this one step further, DHS requested 20,000 National Guardsmen. It just shocks me that Congress is not stepping in and saying, I mean, let's see, 20,000 guardsmen, that's the cost for that on an annual basis. I realize they're not being asked for it annually yet is somewhere between 2 billion to $3 billion. How this is going to happen is the secretary of defense is going to take the money from other programs already within the national guard bureau or from the army predominantly, and they're going to fund these particular exercises. Unfortunately, that means readiness will drop. That means that you're going to have guardsmen potentially in other states that will not be able to attend drill by the end of the fiscal year and or annual training, which means that a lot of guardsmen that literally rely on their weekend warrior soldier, citizen soldier pay, they won't have that income for many guardsmen because the money is not there. Congress has got to step up and insist that they have the authority to fund these kind of operations.
- [59:47]
Nicole Wallace
So general, if there are legal orders, what is in the system to protect the military from being called up like this to being mobilized on the streets of American cities, as you said, to maybe end up face to face against a family member or a member of their own community? Is it norm? Is it Congress? Is it the presumption that a commander in chief wouldn't do that to his own? I mean, what is it? What is the safeguard in the system that has gone away?
- [60:15]
Gavin Newsom
Number one is the law as it exists right now is somewhat ambiguous, which means, quite frankly, in this particular case, the president is giving a legal order. That's why the adjutant general of California must follow that order from the president through the secretary of defense to mobilize those 2,000 people to be able to place them under the federal control, not state control. Once they leave the state in terms of authority, I mean, they'll still be there physically, but they will no longer be responsible to the, to the adjutant general or to the governor. So we have to step back a second and say these are legal. It's not what the average leader ever does and has not done for 60 years. So we're again in uncharted waters. And it's very, very nebulous. And it's also, quite frankly, it's what's most appropriate compared to the messaging that he's trying to give, which is actually one of escalation, not one of de escalation.
- [61:21]
Nicole Wallace
So it's a lawful order to deploy active duty marines in the state of California, have them under the command of the federal government and no state official. Is there any act that would be illegal, or do they have free reign? Once they're there and deployed and under the direction of federal authorities because of.
- [61:41]
Gavin Newsom
Posse comitatus, they are not allowed to engage in law enforcement activities. They can engage in force protection, meaning to protect the force, they can be involved in transportation, in other logistics functions. They can be involved in communications. They can be involved behind the scenes. Absolutely. But they cannot actually arrest or detain. That's not permitted. Only in a state capacity where the governor authorizes the National Guard to have that authority. That's the only condition. So right now, under federal law, the those National Guard troops are not allowed to arrest or detain, but they do have other legitimate missions that would be legal under the law at this time.
- [62:31]
Nicole Wallace
What are you hearing from folks inside the military about how they feel about this?
- [62:42]
Gavin Newsom
There's a lot of intimidation because this is not what we signed up for. This is not the idea of facing our fellow Americans on the streets when there is not the need, when law enforcement is adequate. And is there not only are there enough law enforcement people in California, there's over a million trained and badged law enforcement officers in our country that the governor could choose to call his or her fellow governors to request assistance. So I will tell you, I speak to dozens of people that are in the Guard and on active duty, and there is a lot of uncertainty and concern that this is not what they signed up for.
- [63:27]
Nicole Wallace
So, John, importantly, it is, at this point, not illegal, but it is not what they signed up for. They are now in a state where their actions are being directed by the federal government. Government, state of California is suing. And just at a human level, it's just surreal to imagine a Marine maybe standing off against someone they went to high school with or someone in their own family.
- [63:51]
John Kelly
Well, right. And to go back when I said this was predictable, there's another element that's predictable, which is, again, and predicted by, I'm sure, multiple people at this table, which is that this, if this thing unfolded, this kind of thing unfolded, it would be over immigration. And when we talked about the, the dramatic, sweeping, draconian immigration policies, you thought, well, if they're going to deport that many people, eventually they're going to have to start deploying some kind of federal resources to do that, because there aren't enough cops in the country, there aren't enough ICE agents in the country to deport the numbers that Donald Trump was talking about during the campaign. So you thought, either he's going to deport a lot fewer people or he's going to need to eventually deploy some federal, some federal, whether it's National Guard or whether it's active duty military. And of course, we all said that there are going to be many people in the Guard and in the military who are going to look at people who are being asked to put stuff in the back of a truck on potentially illegal ICE orders and say, this is going to be very. There's going to be a lot of conflict because they're going to see people who are literal or metaphorical, friends, family members and neighbors in that situation. It's totally surreal. And I do think that, you know, the one element of this that's really important is that this escalation versus de escalation, because the truth is, right now, it's asymmetric. The Trump administration has control over its guardsmen, over its Marines. If they go, the police have. They have agency. The governor of California is not controlling what's happening on the streets right now. Mayor Bass is not controlling what's happening on the streets. They can give speeches in which they say, calm down, but there is some combination of people who are legitimate protesters who are having their free speech rights denied. There are people who are agitating in the streets. There are people who are engaging in violent acts. This is part of the problem of those kinds of some of these spontaneous things. And why, when you pour gasoline on the spark, why it bursts, because there are some people who are bad actors out there. And these things have a kinetic quality that is out of control. And it's why things like this Marine can't do the following thing, can't engage in this. Well, those are the rules of engagement. But if things spin out of control, and I will say, back in the day, Rodney King, things did spin out of control, and a lot of people were doing things that they didn't think they were gonna have to do when they were dealing with a genuine riot, which we still haven't seen in la. But that's the problem, is that that side of the equation is under no one's control. And that's what Trump's counting on.
- [66:15]
Nicole Wallace
I'm gonna bring you back in. I have to sneak in a break first. I'm gonna ask all of you to stick around a little bit longer with us, please. Also ahead, Donald Trump and his inner circle are increasingly using the I word in these conversations. We won't do that, but we will explain why. They are I for insurrection. That's what they use to describe what's happening in Southern California. We suspect it is a pretext to perhaps do what Trump wants to do next. It is a legally dubious argument from the Trump administration. Of course, Donald Trump pardoned everyone who took part in the actual insurrection insurrection on January 6th. But irony died a sad, quiet death on January 20th. So there's that we'll have that conversation this hour as well. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today. We're back with Major General Randy Manor, John and Eddie. Eddie, glad you were bursting as we were droning on.
- [67:08]
Pablo Alvarado
No, I'm just thinking about what the country is primed to accept. There is the reality that Donald Trump is breaking every norm. He's extending the scope of executive power. We know that what he's doing is a spectacle for his base. All the talk of the fallout between him and Elon Musk, all the talk about the bad version of the big, beautiful bill, all the talk about the grift in the administrative is now gone. So the people who were clamoring, I led with it.
- [67:40]
Nicole Wallace
It's not gone. I thought. It's not gone.
- [67:42]
Pablo Alvarado
But what I'm saying, though, what I'm saying, though, is that is it the case that because this is happening, the cracks that we were noting last week and the week before, will that disappear now that folk have their red meat, now that they're going to see the spectacle of quote, unquote, Louisiana on fire, which it's not.
- [68:01]
Gavin Newsom
Right.
- [68:02]
John Kelly
What will happen?
- [68:03]
Pablo Alvarado
Will he activate the ugliness that got him in office in the first place? Will folk now declare why they love it? Because we know that he's always good on the immigration question. And then the second thing, this reminds me historically of the. It's not a clear analogy, but when the nation, when these political factions divided the nation in between slaveholders and slave catchers, when they made everybody with the Fugitive Slave Law, all of us had to, if someone escaped, all of us had to return that particular piece of property to these folk. With ICE running around la, forcing people to make choices, will they protect their, their friends, their neighbors, their family members? Will they take, will they confront these folk and they're terrorized. You see people crying. You see babies crying, and these people come in here and do this shit, what are they supposed to do? And then you just add the police into that. We know that the country's about to pop. So I'm, I'm sitting here trying to figure out, excuse the cuss word. I'm sitting here trying to figure out, right, what will the country stomach? Are they going to allow this man to do this? And the answer that I keep coming.
- [69:14]
Nicole Wallace
To is, yes, say more.
- [69:18]
Pablo Alvarado
I don't know what else to say. How can I? Here's the thing. Donald Trump as a political charlatan of sorts, gives Americans license to be who they really are. They don't have to pretend. And when you see what they really are, who they really are, these people who support him.
- [69:39]
Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [69:41]
Pablo Alvarado
It's dark.
- [69:44]
Nicole Wallace
I guess my hope would be that, you know, the people he's deporting, 9, 12 and 15% of all Americans support the deportation of men and women who've been here a long time, men and women who've had their children here, and men and women who have jobs. 9, 12, 15.
- [70:00]
Pablo Alvarado
Right.
- [70:01]
Nicole Wallace
87% of Americans support deporting adjudicated violent criminals. That's not who he's picking up.
- [70:07]
Gavin Newsom
Right, Right.
- [70:09]
Pablo Alvarado
But he's still picking them up. He's still. I mean, this. I think I've been in Paris, I've been in France for the last week, and I had this extremely interesting conversation with this guy. He said he's an older guy, and he says, when I was young, all that I ever wanted to do was to come to this country, to come to America. Everything about America was the place that I dreamed. Now my children don't want to have anything to do with that place. Right. So there's that reality. Then I fly back in last night and I'm hearing, and I'm watching this in Charles de Gaulle before I get on the plane and I get back here, and I'm just wondering over and over again, right. What have we become? Because all you can cite those numbers, but the world that we inhabit is that Tom Holman and others are terrorizing our communities. Right. And it's happening. Even though those numbers say that a lot of people disagree.
- [71:07]
John Kelly
I think it's a big, complicated country. And I'm with you, brother, that there are way too many people, way too for whom that's okay. And we'll let our climb with it, applaud it. I think it's a good thing. I'm from California, so I've had people my whole life, like, a lot of the country hates California. They don't even think California's part of America. They look at that and they don't think it's really in their community. They don't think it's in their neighborhood. So they see what's going on there. They think, you know, they see a picture of a guy in a mask with a Molotov cocktail or lighting a fire and applauding chair, whatever. And they think, nuts in California. Trump's doing what he needs to do, and that's circumstantial. They wouldn't feel that way if he was in Dallas or if he was in whatever their hometown is. There's to Your point, Nicole? I think there are. There are tens of millions of people who are outraged by what's happening. There are tens of millions of people who are not outraged. That's a troubling thing if you're of your cast of mind and my cast of mind. Nicole's. But I think one of the things that part of the reason why Trump is able to do these things is because they are not. They are these. We say, Tom Homan. There's all these isolated things we could point to that are terrible, but for a lot of people, they are very distant and they are like a television show. They are a thing that happens in some other community, to some other family, in some other place that feels foreign to them. Especially in a very divided country where a lot of red America, you know, really, not just California, but New York, the places where we're sitting right now, they don't really think that we're part of the same country. And in a closely divided country, there's also the people who do find it appalling and don't know what to do about it. I mean, what would the council be if you said, well, they're allow him to do this? I totally get the impulse. But for all your liberal friends out there who would like to know, what would you like me to do, Professor Galad, right now, to stop what's happening in LA that would be effective, that I would be able to do today? What would I like. I'm not trying to be, I'm not being, I'm not being, I'm not, I'm not being condescending. I'm saying. Ludwig, a lot of people feel powerless in this moment, too. So it's not that they don't want to stop it, but they just don't know. They don't feel like they have agency.
- [73:02]
Nicole Wallace
But when did it, when did it become that only liberals have to save the country from being heinous? I mean, like, that's.
- [73:08]
Jacob Soboroff
Ding, ding, ding.
- [73:09]
Nicole Wallace
That's the problem. So all the Republicans are for dehumanizing anyone, maybe, or maybe not in the country illegally. I mean, ding, ding, ding. That's where we are.
- [73:17]
John Kelly
I think there again, I think there are a lot of people who are not. I didn't mean to say only liberals can save the country. I just mean there are people who object to this from whatever stand, whatever place they are. I think we have a polity in the country that feels highly powerless and as if this is all a show they're watching and that they don't have agency other than the ballot box. And so for a lot of people, they would say, I would love to stop this. Give me something I can, a paper to sign, give me a button to push. I'll vote to stop this. But I don't know how to do that until we get to the midterm elections. That's the mechanism we have for this. I'm not saying that's a satisfying answer, but I think to say that we, all of America, is endorsing this in some way because no one's stopping Donald Trump is, to me at least, casting is painting with a slightly too broad a brush. Because there are a lot of people that we all know who are horrified by this, but either feel powerless or feel like it's far away, or for whatever reason, have bigger problems on their plate at home because their kids and their spouses and their job and they're out of work. And there's a lot of things that are going on with people where they look at this and go, that's bad, man. But I have other things to deal with that are closer to home. So I'm just saying that's how a lot of people think about it.
- [74:28]
Pablo Alvarado
Selfishness and greed stand alongside health. So you're self interested, right? Sentimentality is oftentimes the mask for cruelty. Oh, I feel for you my wet eyes I cry But I don't do nothing I don't do anything I don't do anything. And communities have to bear the burden of this. So what can we do? We can actually say no. And what does that look like in its details?
- [74:52]
Gavin Newsom
Right?
- [74:52]
Pablo Alvarado
It could be all of the elected officials getting on the ground in California, in Los Angeles right now. It could be fundamental challenges on the part of the Democratic Party to this mess instead of kind of and doing all the things that they're doing. It doesn't seem like it has any impact other than, let's wait, bide our time until the midterms. In the meantime, families are being broken apart. The country is being torn apart. Right? So I hear you. I got my own life to live. I gotta go to work, I gotta take care of my kids. But look at this. He's deploying the freaking National Guard. He's Marines. When that happened in the past, it was actually to protect liberty. What is this? What is this for? Right, so you're gonna go about just going about your life as the country's falling apart around you. You're on this damn ship, too, it seems to me.
- [75:43]
John Kelly
I don't disagree. I don't disagree, man. You're, you're describing the world as it should be. And I'm trying to tell you about how I think the world is. And when you meet a lot of people out there and you're. You, you can. This goes by my point. I agree with you. But I, but again, you know, there are a lot of people who are struggling in their own ways.
- [76:03]
Pablo Alvarado
Yes.
- [76:03]
John Kelly
I mean, I don't mean in a selfish way. I mean are struggling their own ways. And you know, they're like, as I say, they don't understand how what the agency is for them to affect. The thing that you're talking about, the critique you made of political leadership is I think is more easily comprehended in the sense that it is true that the Democratic caucus could meet tomorrow and decide to take some kind of dramatic action of that kind. I think that's a thing that is, that's what leadership is.
- [76:31]
Nicole Wallace
But can I just say that the Democrats lost the election, but the Republicans didn't win because of this. They ran on deporting adjudicated criminals. That's what has 87. So I guess what I was trying to say is the country doesn't work if one of the two parties is the only one that treats other humans like humans.
- [76:49]
John Kelly
Right.
- [76:49]
Nicole Wallace
You can't have the other party all co signed onto the dehumanization of people. And they're not even. I mean, these are people that may or may not be here legally. Status for a whole bunch of people already here. They created the pool that then they proceeded to target. So yes, I always think the Democrats could do more. They have the facts on their side and they have public support on their side. That was my only point with the polling. But it is clear that the country doesn't work. It's clear that the military can't be protected from a potential debacle. If only one of the two parties cares about human beings. If only one of the two parties cares about the safety of the men and women of the military doesn't work.
- [77:22]
John Kelly
I agree. You're describing our circumstances on a lot of different issues right now. A totally dysfunctional Republican party is bad for America.
- [77:29]
Nicole Wallace
Bad for America, bad for the military. Major General Randy Manor, I will spare you from having to jump into. It's become a family debate here. Unless you'd like to get a last word.
- [77:38]
Gavin Newsom
Well, I tell you what, I think it's very important that we all remember that we are all Americans. And in asking that question about what can we do? There's really three things I think we should do. One is volunteer in your community, whether it's in your church or your community, for the causes that you believe in. Take action locally. That's number one. Number two, please, please, please write and call your elected officials and express your dissatisfaction with what is going on. Doesn't matter what party they are, just express it. And I think number three is contribute to organizations that you believe in to help foster something that is going to make a difference that you believe in. I think those three simple things are going to make each American feel that they're helping their fellow brothers and sisters, fellow Americans, in a better way. So I would encourage all of us to remember the bottom line is we are all Americans. We are in this together. And we've got to figure this out together.
- [78:33]
Nicole Wallace
Next time you have to come sit at the table with us. Will do, Major General Randy Manor. Thank you. John and Eddie, stick around. We'll pick this up on the other side of a break. We'll also cover what the same Trump administration officials, officials who defended and pardoned the January 6th insurrectionists, are saying now about the I word and violence against police. We'll have that story next. I'm going to bring into our coverage NBC News correspondent Gotti Schwartz. He's outside a federal building in Los Angeles. What's happening right now? Gotti, can you hear us? Hey, I'm not sure if I'm not sure if you could hear me. I can't hear you.
- [79:15]
Pablo Alvarado
But let me show you the scene.
- [79:16]
Nicole Wallace
That we're seeing right now. We're in front of the federal building.
- [79:19]
Pablo Alvarado
Here in Los Angeles. And you can see this is the National Guard.
- [79:22]
Nicole Wallace
These are the National Guard soldiers that have been stationed here since, we believe, last night. There's a big federal building. On the other side is this holding facility, the mdc.
- [79:31]
Pablo Alvarado
That's where if you are taken into custody by ice, that's where you're processed. But you can can see this crowd.
- [79:37]
Nicole Wallace
Let me walk this way. You've got a crowd that's starting to gather here. This is Temple in Los Angeles. And they are standing here looking at the California National Guard.
- [79:48]
Pablo Alvarado
This is a California National Guard contingent.
- [79:50]
Nicole Wallace
Not the ones that we are told are going to be coming from. They're going to be coming from 29 palms. This is the National Guard contingent that has been here since yesterday. But you see that they are having.
- [80:04]
Pablo Alvarado
To face off with the protesters that are down here.
- [80:08]
Nicole Wallace
Many of these protesters have been yelling at them for quite some time. But so far things have been relatively peaceful. Some music over here. So we're going to walk this way.
- [80:19]
Pablo Alvarado
But right now the crowd is maybe 200, 300 protesters. This particular location, there's another group of protesters, maybe 100 protesters, 200 protesters that.
- [80:30]
Nicole Wallace
Are also facing up at LAPD. But as we understand it, this is a federal building.
- [80:35]
Pablo Alvarado
Again, on the other side is mdc.
- [80:37]
Nicole Wallace
From what we've seen, it's been very difficult for LAPD or for federal authorities.
- [80:43]
Pablo Alvarado
To kind of come back in, resupply.
- [80:46]
Nicole Wallace
The soldiers that are here protecting the front and the soldiers that are on the backside protecting the sally port that we saw yesterday.
- [80:53]
Pablo Alvarado
But this is the scene that we see right now. So far, everything has been peaceful.
- [80:58]
Nicole Wallace
We saw some faith leaders right here kind of trying to keep the temperature down. But right now, this is a scene as more and more people show up to this protest. And I don't, I don't have ifb. I can't hear you. So I'm going to send it back to you, Nicole. That's our Gotti Schwartz live for us in Los Angeles. We thank him for that report. We're going to sneak in one more break. John and Eddie and Alex be back on the other side. My friend and colleague Rachel Maddow periodically reminds us that we ought to watch what they do, not what they say. In this instance, though, what they're saying is at least worth reporting, telling you about because Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller is already calling what's happening in Los Angeles a, quote, insurrection. JD Vance tweeted about insurrectionists. And Donald Trump himself, after telling a journalist yesterday that what is happening in Los Angeles is not an insurrection, proceeded to post, quote, paid insurrectionists. Then this afternoon he posted again about insurrectionists. It is just a word, but it is an important one, not just because invoking the Insurrection act would be an unprecedented escalation, but also because Anyone older than 4 years old remembers an actual insurrection. And the way Trump spent his first day in office, the second time pardoning all the rioters involved in January 6th. Joining our conversation is former Republican congressman, adviser to the former Advisor to the January 6th Select Committee, Denver Riggleman. Denver, I know you're just back from Ukraine and I promise we'll get to that in a second. But your thoughts on this moment unfolding.
- [82:35]
Chris Hayes
You know, you just said it when they said insurrectionists, what they are setting up is the Insurrection Act. You know, when right before the election, we were war gaming a lot of this with a lot of groups, groups and the sort of let's protect democracy movement. I remember I was doing one with Bill Kristol and we were talking about the Insurrection act and how we thought there would be some type of motivation or some type of escalation, maybe even artificial escalation, to get to that point. And what you're saying, Nicole, is the use of the word insurrection to get to what they hope is the Insurrection act, because that's something that it seemed that President Trump has been wanting to do since he took office the first time in. In 2016. Also, when you look at insurrection, they're trying to take the language of what happened on January 6. I saw an insurrection. And there are gradations. Right. There's common sense, Nicole. Right.
- [83:19]
Nicole Wallace
If you.
- [83:19]
Chris Hayes
If you're stealing something and you steal a Snickers bar, you steal a vehicle, those are two very different things. And what they're trying to do is they're trying to apply the escalation of violence, or the deliberate. I would say the deliberate escalation. Right. Of activity with the National Guard to an insurrection, when you have people that are actually going against the escalation of that violence from the government, rather than the proactive measures of the January 6th insurrectionists who planned it, whether they're proud boys, Oath Keepers, the other white nationalist groups, rally planners, all the people that were involved, that we know of from text messages all the way to phone records. So I think that's what you're seeing, Nicole, is exactly that. Which was brilliant, right. As they're trying to take the language of January 6th, but they're also trying to frame the need for the Insurrection act with the escalation of violence that they hope happens based on the National Guard being in that area.
- [84:08]
Nicole Wallace
I don't say this a lot, so when I get to say it, I'm going to say it out loud and twice. I agree with Kash Patel. I agree with Kash Patel. He tweeted this. Hit a cop. You're going to jail. Doesn't matter where you came from, how you got there, what movement speaks to you. If the local police force won't back our men and women on the thin blue line, the FBI will. It would be wonderful if Patience Patel said that to Harry Dunn's face or Michael Fanon's face or any of the other dozens of officers who defended the United states Capitol on January 6th. Do you think they think their own base is stupid? Do you think they think we don't know what happened on January? I mean, why? How did they say those things without caring about the officers that were hit by Trump supporters on January 6th?
- [84:54]
Chris Hayes
It's the thing that really Bothers me. Harry was with me in Ukraine, Nicole, I don't know if you knew that or not, so. And I don't know if anybody's been around Harry Dunn, but I don't think Cash Patel is going to tell Harry Dunn to his face that based on what happened, right? Or Fanon, for that, Michael, for that matter. The fact is he's just full of crap, right? This is them trying to set up another narrative outside of what really happened on January 6th, but it's lying. You know, it's just sort of this pathological narrative need for machismo that comes out of a lot of these individuals, right, who I don't think could make the JV baseball team. That's really what we have here. And what you're seeing with this type of chest thumping again, is gearing up to what you're seeing in LA and what they hope to happen, which is them actually rolling in and some of the campaign promises that President Trump wanted to actually keep, but he's trying to make them happen based on the National Guard being deployed. So, yeah, Cash Patel's full of crap and he shouldn't be there anyway. But what you have is somebody who really has no sense of what he's saying, or he absolutely does, and it's the cynicism of what they did to the police officers on the capitol steps on January 6th. And now he's saying this ridiculousness, like somehow there's some parallel or they've completely forgotten or trying to whitewash this. So you're right, Nicole. They think we're stupid. But, you know, there's a whole huge portion of the population who just really doesn't care what's happening in la. They just don't care. They are living their lives. They voted for Trump over 77 million people. And I think what they're saying to them is something that they say, I voted for this. And that's what I'm seeing on social media, is this sort of, rah, rah, I voted for this while showing pictures of people running from law enforcement. And I gotta tell you, that should bother every American, if that's where we're going as a country.
- [86:34]
Nicole Wallace
What do we do about that?
- [86:37]
Chris Hayes
You know, I was listening to the prior segment. I know John was talking about the midterms and listening to Eddie, but what we have to do about that, I told people that we're almost to the point of intellectual house to house fighting, where you have to be confrontational with people, verbally, not physically, but you have to be confrontational. With people to their face. And that's what I am. And, you know, you can do it sort of gently. You know, I used to call it compassionate confrontation. I don't know what you would call it now because to me, I'm getting to the point, I'm so angry if somebody comes up. To me, January 6th was a day of peace. You know, this is, is, this is a real insurrection. January 6th wasn't the fact that there's propaganda and lies and things like Cash Patel, when you have people that you know and they come up to you, I know there's people that say, hey, we got to reach out, have to have an olive branch. But if they refuse to reach out, there has to come a time, whether you're at a family reunion, a restaurant, or you're anywhere where somebody says something stupid or it's completely against what facts are. You have to stand up now. And I think that's why we're at a house to house phase of truth, truth telling. Right. And you know, Hunter Thompson said it best, right? The million pound shit hammer.
- [87:38]
Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [87:38]
Chris Hayes
I think we got to come with the facts. Million pound hit hammer. Right. As we're going at people, because that's, I think that's the only thing we can do right now. And, and let's also hope that the midterms we do have people that come out to vote at this point. But it's amazing. Me as a former Republican, Nicole, I'm absolutely horrified at the propaganda that's just spewing out of the White House.
- [87:57]
Nicole Wallace
Facts, baby. Facts. Denver Riggleman, you have to come. What?
- [88:00]
John Kelly
I think Eddie could use that word. He's already said it once. You could say it. Go ahead and say no.
- [88:04]
Nicole Wallace
No.
- [88:04]
John Kelly
What kind of hammer is it? No, I thought once you already.
- [88:07]
Nicole Wallace
We have a quota for swear.
- [88:09]
Chris Hayes
I do not want to say million pound shith Hammer on air.
- [88:11]
Nicole Wallace
Well, so there you go, Deborah. You have to come back tomorrow. We should share with our viewers. You were originally booked to talk about your time in Ukraine. You're just back. We'll have that conversation tomorrow. Thank you for joining us on this. John Heilman and Eddie got Thursday that scene in Jerry Maguire where Cuba Gooding says, I feel like we're just starting to communicate. Right? I feel like we're just starting to communicate. I love you guys. Thank you. Another break for us. We'll be right back. If you could clone one human being to help all of us understand the intersections of politics and tech, for that matter, Trump and Elon, it would be Kara Swisher she has completely cracked the code on what makes all these powerful figures we cover everyday tick and talk from tech titans to Donald Trump. I was fortunate enough to talk to Kara Swisher for my new podcast, the Best People Take a Listen. One of the things that he is, is he's, he's, and I'm using this term correctly, he's promiscuous. He's like so promiscuous online and that.
- [89:14]
Donald Trump
Is really a key.
- [89:15]
Nicole Wallace
And he makes mistakes and he's promiscuous and he keeps at it. And you have to do that in.
- [89:20]
Donald Trump
Today'S media environment because there's no such.
- [89:23]
Nicole Wallace
Thing as too much. There's no such cause it's a yawning maw of information that just doesn't end like a flood. And if you're not constantly.
- [89:33]
Donald Trump
Just like creators are like that too.
- [89:34]
Nicole Wallace
They have to constantly be making. And he's constantly making. Even if it has a deleterious effect on our country. It doesn't matter intuitively. He's got a lizard mentality. Right. He's got that lizard brain. So he kind of sees where the power is. Scott was saying, if, you know, in, in, in scamming he is Marco Corleone and in governing, he's Fredo. Yeah. Which you wish you have. Michael Corleone. Exactly. Kara Swisher's astute analysis of the current commander of Chief in Chief, Donald J. Trump. You can listen to the whole conversation by scanning the QR code on your screen. Be sure to subscribe to MSNBC Premium for ad free listening and shoot me a note so let me know what you think. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We're grateful.