“A watershed moment”

Summary

Deadline: White House – “A Watershed Moment”

Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Alicia Menendez (sitting in for Nicolle Wallace)
Guests: Ken Dilanian, Tyler Pager, Liz Oyer, Sen. Maria Cantwell, Claire McCaskill, Oliver Darcy
Main Themes: The accelerating politicization of the Justice Department under President Trump, the looming indictment against James Comey, political retribution, the crackdown on dissent and media, and mounting cultural and political backlash.

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Overview

This episode explores what Alicia Menendez repeatedly calls a “watershed moment” for American democracy: President Trump's campaign to use the Justice Department to pursue indictments against political enemies, most immediately former FBI Director James Comey. The conversation digs into the mechanics, risks, and unprecedented nature of these moves—both within the legal system and across the political landscape. As the discussion widens, attention turns to further efforts to silence critics, notably in the media, and the resulting cultural blowback.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Indictment Against James Comey: Political Prosecution in Real Time

[01:07–04:17]

• Alicia Menendez frames the episode by highlighting the impending indictment of James Comey and Trump's denials about involvement, set alongside credible reports of persistent pressure on DOJ officials to bring charges.
• Trump’s statements (declarations that Comey is a “bad person” and “sick person”) set a hostile tone for the DOJ’s actions.
• Reporting from the Wall Street Journal and MSNBC reveals DOJ line prosecutors have objected on evidentiary and ethical grounds, but Trump-aligned U.S. Attorney Lindsey Halligan intends to proceed.
• The supposed crime centers on conflicting congressional testimony by Comey and McCabe regarding leaking information.

Quote:

“There is simply no there, there.” – Alicia Menendez, referencing DOJ line prosecutors’ doubts (04:03)

2. The Collapse of DOJ Independence

[05:08–09:34]

• Ken Dilanian likens the Trump DOJ approach to Stalinist Russia: “Find me the man and I’ll show you the crime.”
• The Comey/McCabe leak controversy has been exhaustively investigated with no previous charges; bringing it now, with the statute of limitations looming, is seen as nakedly political.
• DOJ standards require “a prosecutor should believe they could win a conviction” to indict, not just have probable cause.

Quote:

“The idea of a president ordering his Justice Department to charge his political enemies, whether they think there’s evidence or not— that is a very dangerous place we’re in as a country right now.” – Ken Dilanian [07:14]

• Liz Oyer describes career DOJ personnel as caught between duty to the law and loyalty to leadership:

  “People in the Justice Department now are in a very hard situation ... I hope that they choose to lead with integrity and not to let their principles and duties be compromised to achieve a political objective.” [08:30]

• Tyler Pager reminds the audience that Trump campaigned on the promise to “be your retribution”—now manifest in overt White House interference.

3. Pam Bondi and DOJ Leadership: Loyalty and Retaliation

[11:16–13:27]

• Ken Dilanian clarifies that DOJ leadership (Pam Bondi, Todd Blanche) are aware of the legal risks but prioritize Trump loyalty—mirroring the political “purge” of less compliant officials, e.g., Eric Siebert, who was forced out for refusing spurious prosecutions.
• Bondi has told DOJ staff “we all work for Donald Trump,” underscoring the collapse of DOJ independence.

Quote:

“She believes this is an army of lawyers that amount to Donald Trump’s personal law firm.” – Liz Oyer on Pam Bondi [13:27]

4. Grand Jury Mechanics and the Limits of Resistance

[14:07–15:34]

• Could the grand jury stop a weak Comey case? Ken Dilanian notes it’s rare, but not impossible. Grand juries sometimes reject overtly political prosecutions, but the process is stacked in the prosecutor’s favor.
• Even a “no true bill” would represent a dramatic, public rebuke to Trump’s DOJ.

5. Republican Response: Complicity and Concerns

[16:19–17:46]

• Tyler Pager’s reporting shows Republicans divided—some endorse Trump’s actions, reframing them as retribution for supposed Biden DOJ overreach, but others are “deeply concerned about the politicization of the Justice Department.”
• Polling: 54% (including 30% of Republicans) think it’s unacceptable for a president to direct the DOJ to investigate political rivals.

Quote:

“He promised to do this very thing when he was running for president.” – Tyler Pager [16:27]

6. The Pattern of Political Prosecutions

[17:46–20:20]

• The Comey case is not isolated: similar probes are targeting Letitia James, Adam Schiff, John Brennan, John Bolton, Chris Krebs, Miles Taylor, even President Obama.
• Ken Dilanian: Claims of equivalence to the Biden administration are “the big lie”—no evidence of political interference in Biden-era DOJ investigations.

Quote:

“The idea that there’s any equivalence ... is the big lie.” – Ken Dilanian [19:15]

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Expanding the Crackdown: DOJ Targets Soros Groups

[22:47–25:58]

• Liz Oyer and Tyler Pager discuss reporting that DOJ leadership is now ordering investigations into groups funded by George Soros—expanding the reach of political retribution.
• The intent is to find “any” charge, possibly via tax exemption revocation or even RICO statutes. Oyer calls the approach “chilling,” noting this is a direct reversal of established DOJ procedure and an attack on the rule of law.

Quote:

“The justice system ... is not a toy. It is not a tool of revenge ... But that is how Donald Trump is using it.” – Liz Oyer [23:17]

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Media & Cultural Backlash: The Jimmy Kimmel Saga

[30:24–46:22]

• Widespread preemption of Jimmy Kimmel Live! on more than two dozen ABC affiliates (including in major markets like Seattle) is linked to Trump-aligned FCC pressure.
• Senator Maria Cantwell calls out improper political threats and vows to hold FCC leadership accountable.
• The decision to pull Kimmel has generated broad public interest, with even some Republicans (like Ted Cruz) speaking out against censorship.

Quote:

“How come I can’t watch Kimmel? ... Is this going to happen to everybody that people don’t like his free speech?” – Sen. Maria Cantwell [34:09]

• The entertainment industry, including Disney and Kimmel himself, respond with open defiance and further political satire.
• Oliver Darcy explains that Disney is waiting for Sinclair and Nexstar to “come back to the table,” underscoring the contractual and financial consequences.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Find me the man and I’ll show you the crime.”
  — Ken Dilanian likening DOJ conduct to Stalinist Russia. [06:15]
• “This Justice Department has no independence from the President.”
  — Liz Oyer, on the state of DOJ under Bondi and Trump. [13:27]
• “They are going after Donald Trump’s political enemies using the tools of government.”
  — Ken Dilanian, on the broader campaign of political prosecutions. [19:05]
• “The idea that the White House and the Justice Department would have this wall between them ... has just fallen completely.”
  — Tyler Pager, on the eroded norms post-Watergate. [10:47]
• “It is not a toy. It is not a tool of revenge.”
  — Liz Oyer, on the Justice Department’s role. [23:17]
• “We don’t want an FCC that is going to do the bidding of the President and push content off the air just because he’s mad about it.”
  — Sen. Maria Cantwell [33:13]
• “All that stuff’s really, really important. But this [Kimmel] is something that really touched people...especially people who don’t do politics.”
  — Claire McCaskill, on the resonance of the media crackdown. [41:36]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [01:07–05:08] – Laying out the Comey indictment; Trump’s role; legal context
• [05:08–07:30] – DOJ pushback, legal standards, Stalinist parallel
• [07:30–10:11] – DOJ ethics, risk to career prosecutors, precedent
• [14:07–15:34] – Grand jury process, possibility of “no true bill”
• [16:19–20:20] – Divisions in the GOP, poll numbers, historic context
• [22:47–25:58] – DOJ targeting Soros groups; expansion of retribution
• [30:24–37:11] – Jimmy Kimmel preemption; FCC controversy; Sen. Cantwell interview
• [39:36–46:22] – Kimmel’s monologue; Disney’s role; media/advertiser pressures; cultural/political symbolism

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Conclusion

This episode paints a stark, detailed picture of American institutions under stress: long-standing norms around prosecutorial and media independence are under siege, replaced by loyalty demands and political vendettas. The Comey prosecution is framed not only as a test of the Justice Department but as a warning sign for the erosion of democracy. The ripple effects—crackdowns on prominent media figures and the eruption of public and industry backlash—suggest that “watershed” is no exaggeration. The cross-section of legal, political, and cultural voices all echo the same alarm: America is at a dangerous and unprecedented precipice.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode:
This summary captures both the factual events under discussion and the episode’s palpable urgency. It exposes the intricacies of DOJ manipulation, the embattled state of independent American institutions, and the mounting public demand for accountability and transparency.

Transcript

[Ted Danson]

Hey everybody, Ted Danson here to tell you about my podcast with my longtime friend and sometimes co host Woody Harrelson. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name. And we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this season by friends like John Mulaney, David Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more. You don't want to miss it. Listen to Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts. Deadline White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

[Alicia Menendez]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. Donald Trump's campaign to prosecute his political enemies, what could be a watershed moment for our democracy is reaching a fever pitch with an indictment against former FBI Director James Comey expected as soon as today. As for the president driving us towards that watershed moment, here's what he had to say about his former FBI director just today.

[Donald Trump]

I can't tell you what's going to happen because I don't know.

[Ted Danson]

You have very professional people headed up.

[Donald Trump]

By the attorney general and Todd, Todd Blanche and Lindsey Halligan, who's very smart, good lawyer, very good lawyer. They're going to make a determination. I'm not making that deter. I think I'd be allowed to get involved if it wants, but I don't really choose to do so. I can only say that Comey's a bad person. He's a sick person.

[Ted Danson]

I think he's a sick guy.

[Tyler Pager]

Actually.

[Ted Danson]

He did terrible things at the FBI.

[Donald Trump]

But I don't know.

[Ted Danson]

I have no idea what's going to happen.

[Alicia Menendez]

Trump's claim to not be involved in a criminal case against one of his most prominent critics, while that does not square up with this reporting from the Wall Street Journal, quote, trump has pushed Bondi repeatedly in private in recent days to bring charges against Comey, even as she has expressed reservations about the case. And she's not alone at all levels of the Justice Department, there is reportedly a sense that there is simply no there, there. MSNBC reporting this Quote, the Justice Department's plan to indict James Comey encountered a last minute roadblock earlier this week when line prosecutors presented President Trump's newly installed U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia with a memo suggesting their case against the former FBI director is too weak to pursue. Two sources familiar with the case said the memo explained why prosecutors lack sufficient evidence to convince a grand jury to INDICT COMEY, But U.S. attorney Lindsey Halligan can overrule their recommendation. Halligan, who has never prosecuted a case in her entire career, she was an insurance lawyer. And Trump's defense lawyer, is, quote, rushing against the clock before the statute of limitations involving one charge believed to be central to the case expires within the week. That charge, allegations that the former FBI director lied to Congress about whether he authorized a leak of information to the media. Here's the exchange with Senator Ted Cruz that is apparently at issue.

[Donald Trump]

Chairman Grassley asked you point blank, quote, have you ever been an anonymous source in news reports about matters relating to the Trump investigation or the Clinton investigation? You responded under oath, quote, never. Now, as you know, Mr. McCabe, who works for you, has publicly and repeatedly stated that he leaked information to the.

[Oliver Darcy]

Wall Street Journal and that you were.

[Donald Trump]

Directly aware of it and that you directly authorized it. Who's telling the truth?

[Ted Danson]

I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by what the testimony you.

[Tyler Pager]

Summarized that I gave in May of 2017.

[Oliver Darcy]

So your testimony is you've never authorized anyone to leak, and Mr. McCabe, if.

[Donald Trump]

He says contrary, is not telling the.

[Oliver Darcy]

Truth, Is that correct?

[Ted Danson]

Again, I'm not going to characterize Andy's testimony, but mine is the same today.

[Alicia Menendez]

Okay, so the question of whether or not Comey lied right there has already been investigated. According to MSNBC's reporting, quote, an independent investigation by the Justice Department inspector general concluded that Comey did not authorize the release of the information and that FBI rules allowed McCabe, as deputy director, to speak to the news media without authorization. The Justice Department reportedly barreling ahead with an indictment of one of President Trump's political critics is where we start today. Kendallanean, justice and intelligence correspondent for msnbc, White House correspondent for the New York times, author of 2024, Tyler Pager is with us. Plus, former Department of Justice pardon attorney Liz Oyer, who was fired by Trump's Justice Department back in March. It is good to see you all. Ken, you and our. Carol. Carol, you and our colleague Carol Lenigh were the first to report on this. What is the latest?

[Ted Danson]

Good afternoon, Alicia. Yeah, we believe that the U.S. attorney Lindsey Halligan is moving forward with the case despite that memo that she received recommending that she not do so. And again, that memo said that not only do these lawyers think they can't win the case and convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that James Comey is guilty of lying to Congress, they don't even believe there's probable cause, which is the lower standard by which you obtain an indictment. Although the Justice Department rules, the ethical rules say that a prosecutor should believe they could win a conviction if they even seek an indictment. But we think they're moving forward. We believe the grand jury is sitting today. They may be presenting to the grand jury today. We're waiting to see what happens here. And look, I mean, you laid it out really well. There was a saying in Stalinist Russia, find me the man and I'll show you the crime. And that's really. That looks like what's happening here. I mean, this was James Comey. And his conduct in the Russia investigation was scrutinized by a different Trump appointed prosecutor, John Durham, the special counsel who looked at everything and didn't charge Comey or very few other people, actually didn't even criticize Comey in terms of his candor to Congress in his final report. And this issue with the divergence between Comey's account and McCabe's account on, on this particular leak to the Wall Street Journal, this has been around for years. Five years ago, actually, is when he delivered that testimony. That's why the statute of limitations lapses early next week. And just because there's a disagreement over what happened, that doesn't make it perjury. In order to make a perjury charge, you have to show evidence that James Comey intended to deceive Congress, that he knew he was lying, that he had criminal intent. And I'm not aware of any evidence of that. And it appears that career prosecutors inside the Eastern District of Virginia didn't think there was enough evidence of that either. But of course, Donald Trump has been pushing Pam Bondi, he did it publicly on Truth Social, to indict not only James Comey, but Letitia James, the New York attorney general, and Adam Schiff, the senator from California. And it looks like the machinery of justice is doing his bidding. And that is a place we have not been before as a country, particularly since Watergate. But even before that, the idea of a president ordering his Justice Department to charge his political enemies, whether they think there's evidence or not, that is a very dangerous place that we're in. As a country right now.

[Alicia Menendez]

Lisa Liz, I agree that this does feel fundamentally different than even the long line of attacks against the system of justice that we have seen from this administration. I want to read you something from ABC News about those line prosecutors that Kendelaneon was just talking about. They would argue that seeking the charges would violate DOJ policy, raise serious ethical issues, and risk being rejected by the grand jury. She plans to pursue an indictment anyway, carrying out the clear mandate she received when she was installed into the position over the weekend. But before we even talk about Lindsey Halligan and what this means for her and why she is there, if you are those career prosecutors and you have been making this case to your new boss that there is no there there, that this cannot come clear, the lowest possible bar and standard of the Justice Department's own rules and regulations, and she says, I'm going to do it anyway, what does that say to you as a line prosecutor? And how much longer can you stay in that role in good faith?

[Liz Oyer]

I think people in the Justice Department now are in a very hard situation where they have to choose between fulfilling their duties to uphold the Constitution and follow the rules of the department and pleasing their boss. And, and for those folks, I hope that they choose to lead with integrity and not to let their principles and duties be compromised to achieve a political objective. Essentially, what's happening now is the longstanding practices of the Department of Justice are being turned on their head. Prosecutors are required to start with facts and evidence and pursue cases from there. It is quite the opposite to start with a target and then try to build a case around them, which is what they're being asked to do here. This is the type of thing that a lawyer could lose their law license over. So I hope that people are taking a long view of this within the Justice Department and intend to stand up for what's right and allow themselves to be fired or to quit if that's what it takes to avoid doing something that would be very destructive to our system of justice.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tyler, I want to remind us all because there is such a wild history here. This is not the first time we have seen this film. The New York Times reported back in 2018 that Trump told then White House counsel Don McGahn he will wanted to order an investigation into Comey. But McGahn, quote, rebuffed the President, saying that he had no authority to order a prosecution. To underscore that point, Mr. McGahn had White House lawyers write a memo, yet Another memo for Mr. Trump, warning that if he asked law enforcement to investigate his rivals. He could face a range of consequences, including possible impeachment. The difference now, Tyler, is there is no Don McGahn there.

[Tyler Pager]

Yeah. I mean, he is surrounded by loyalists in the White House and in the administration. And I think we've seen him take steps when he. He has encountered roadblocks for these larger objectives. He moves to replace those people with people who are willing to serve his purpose. And so I think we saw him, I mean, the truth social message he put out over the weekend where he said Pam Colon, referring to the attorney general, and very explicitly told her he wanted her to prosecute Comey Letitia James. This is something we haven't seen as public before.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right.

[Tyler Pager]

My colleagues reported that he would say these things privately to his aides, but he has now dispensed with any sort of caution across the board. And we've seen that particularly play out as it relates to these specific individuals, what he perceives as his political opponents, that he wants his Justice Department to prosecute them. And so this wall that most presidents, at least since Watergate, have put up between the White House and the Justice Department has just fallen completely.

[Alicia Menendez]

Can I wonder what your reporting is telling you about Pam Bondi and what those conversations with the president where she has, quote, expressed reservations, actually look like, just how ardent she has been in those conversations. And what happens to Pam Bondi, should her counsel be rejected? And this move forward.

[Ted Danson]

I can't claim to have perfect visibility on that score, Alicia, but I do know from reporting on the Justice Department that Pam Bondi and Todd Blanche, you know, they're real lawyers. They have long experience in the practice of law. Todd Blanche was a prosecutor. Pam Bondi was the Florida Attorney General for eight years. And they know the pitfalls here that Liz described. They understand the situation. And by all accounts, they tried to protect Eric Siebert, the U.S. attorney who was fired, who was Trump's pick, remember, to run that office. But he didn't want to bring these cases, and so essentially, he was forced out. So they're not comfortable with this. But it's also very clear that Pam Bondi wants to keep her job, and she wants to stay in Donald Trump's good graces. And I saw a photo last night of her dining with the president, smiling the other day. That's a photo that Merrick Garland would have done anything to avoid taking. He didn't even want to be in the same room with Joe Biden when the Justice Department was investigating Joe Biden's son. And when there was A special counsel reviewing whether Joe Biden mishandled the classified documents. He tried to keep the Justice Department completely isolated from the Biden White House despite the charges that Republicans were making. That's not how Pam Bondi is running this Justice Department. She's been very clear. She's a Trump loyalist. And so despite her misgivings, I don't envision her trying to, for example, put a stop to this indictment. If she does, that would be a new chapter in the Pam Bondi tenure as Attorney General.

[Alicia Menendez]

Okay. But Liz oyer, if Don McGahn in 2018 said no, and Eric Siebert in 2025 said no, I refuse to do this. And Pam Bondi allows it to happen on her watch, and Lindsey Halligan signs off on it, what does it say about the independence of this Justice Department?

[Liz Oyer]

This Justice Department has no independence from the President. And Pam Bondi has already made that clear. She sent a memo to the entire workforce force on her first day in office saying, we all work for Donald Trump. She believes this is an army of lawyers that amount to Donald Trump's personal law firm. If she were to sign off on this case, on this prosecution moving forward, that would be alarming. But honestly, either way, the situation that we're at really is a crisis. There is a five alarm fire racing through the Justice Department. And at this point, we are counting on career people with integrity and political appointees who may have some integrity to stand up for what's right and not let the whole place burn down.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right. I mean, and I think part of what we have to also acknowledge, Ken, is that that five alarm fire is going to reach the feet of about a dozen ordinary Americans who might be empaneled on that grand jury. If they say what folks inside the Justice Department have said, there is no there there, and they reject this indictment, what happens then?

[Ted Danson]

Yeah, they'll return what's called a no true bill. And I assume that we will find out about that. And, you know, it's interesting. Those are incredibly rare. I was talking to somebody who said the last time that happened in the Eastern District of Virginia was back in like 1993 involving Chuck Robb, the former governor. But we've seen an increasing number of those happening in both in Los Angeles and in Washington, where regular grand jurors, and these are often retired people who come in and spend a lot of time reviewing these cases. They've just been rejecting the cases that have been brought to them by Trump Justice Department prosecutors. We saw it with the man who threw the sandwich at the law enforcement officer in D.C. they refused to indict that as a felony case. So you could see something like that happening here. I would just caution, though, that grand jury is a prosecutor's tool. They're only hearing evidence from the prosecutor. And this is not Washington. This is the Eastern District of Virginia. So I don't think we should count on the idea of grand jurors standing up to this and saying, no. I wouldn't rule it out, though. So it's going to be interesting to see what happens.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tyler, I want to just turn to the political element, all of this. You got some new polling out. It shows 54% of adults think it is unacceptable for the president to direct the Department of Justice to investigate political opponents. That includes 30% of Republicans. Actually, surprised those numbers are not higher. If we're all gonna be honest here in your reporting, when you are talking to Republicans on Capitol Hill, what is their general sense? Look, I get that the president is on truth social saying, my folks are mad that not more has been done. My base wants to see more action. Where are Republicans on the Hill on this question of the president brazenly going after his political opponents?

[Tyler Pager]

Look, I think it's divided, and I think it's important to remember that Donald Trump very clearly said he was going to do this. He ran for president again, saying, I am your retribution. And he tied his own personal fate when he was facing multiple criminal trials as a candidate for president with that of his supporters. So this is not necessarily a surprise. He promised to do this very thing when he was running for president. Now, I think, you know, just like the Republican Party, there is divides on Capitol Hill about this. There are some Republicans who are fully supportive of the president. They see, they say that the Biden Justice Department weaponized the government against Trump by investigating him for January 6 in the classified documents. And so this is just Trump doing what Biden did. Obviously, these are very different cases and scenarios. It was Merrick Garland and the Justice Department that was pursuing these cases, and Joe Biden was very studiously trying to keep an arm's reach from that. But I think there's also Republicans who are deeply concerned about the politicization of the Justice Department and the way in which Donald Trump is overtly telling the attorney General what she should do. And when he's not getting the results that he wants, he's replacing those individuals. So, you know, I think it's important to remember that this is not new from Donald Trump, but I think the way in which it's playing out is in some ways much more public and brazen than some people might have expected.

[Alicia Menendez]

Ken, the Eastern District of Virginia is also handling the investigation into New York AG Letitia James. And I wonder one sort of status of that case, but also the interplay between these two, right, if, if they take Comey to a grand jury and they are just laughing out of there and they do not secure an indictment, does that change their thinking moving forward on something like the James investigation?

[Ted Danson]

One would think so. I mean, if this grand jury, no bills on the James Comey case, that would be a stunning rebuke to the Justice Department and to Donald Trump and to the White House. And it should teach them the lesson. Whether it will is another question because the James case also has problems. And again, you know, it's a situation where they would have to prove criminal intent that she made, that she intentionally lied on these mortgage forms, not just made a mistake or not just misinterpreted or was given bad advice by a mortgage broker. And that is a high hurdle. And these regular Americans who sit on these grand juries, they know that. They've all filled out mortgage documents, many of them. And so, yeah, I think it would be, it might give them pause. But then again, look, there's a long list of Donald Trump's political enemies that are under investigation by the Justice Department or other Trump administration entities right now. And we're talking about John Bolton, John Brennan, the former CIA director, potentially President Obama, and then lesser known names like Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor. So this is a pattern and practice of the Trump administration. They are going after Donald Trump's political enemies using the tools of government. And it's not clear that any one set the back is going to stop them from doing that. I just want to make one more point to emphasize what Tyler said. The idea that there's any equivalence between what's happening with this Justice Department and the politicization and the interplay with the White House and what happened in the Biden administration is the big lie. Because I covered all those Donald Trump special counsel investigations, and they were conducted by career prosecutors and career FBI agents who had no contact whatsoever with anybody on the political side. And, and the Republicans who have made charge after charge that it was weaponized, they have produced not a scintilla of evidence to back that up. No email, no meeting, no message between somebody in the Biden White House and anybody involved in those investigations that showed political influence over them. It just doesn't exist, even though millions of people believe it. And right wing media has been hammering it forever. It's just not factual.

[Alicia Menendez]

Kendallanian, who has had back to back scoops this week. Thank you for bringing us your reporting. If there is anything more to know in the next two hours, please come on back. Tyler and Liz, you are sticking with me. When we come back. James Comey, of course may not be the President's only target. Another escalation of his all out weaponization of the Department of Justice. News breaking today, the prosecutors are being pushed to investigate a group tied to Democratic donor George Soros. Plus, the pressure is still growing for Jimmy Kimmel to return to the air on the more than two dozen ABC local affiliates Talk with one of the top Democrats leading that charge. Senator Maria Cantwell is going to join us. And later in the show, Trump and the White House doing everything possible to quiet down the steady drumbeat of questions surrounding Jeffrey Epstein. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after this. What's poppin listeners?

[Liz Oyer]

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[Alicia Menendez]

We are back with Tyler and with Liz. Liz, there is further evidence today that the Justice Department leaders, they are following the president's orders. In the New York Times reporting that, quote, a senior Justice Department official has instructed more than a half dozen US Attorneys offices to draft plans to investigate a group funded by George Soros, the billionaire Democratic donor President Trump has demanded be thrown in jail. It seems like the doj, they are going down the list as it has been dictated by the president.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, you're absolutely right, Alicia. This is again, sort of turning the justice process on its head. The idea of starting with a target and then trying to find charges that can be applied to that specific person or organization is exactly the opposite of how our justice system works and has always worked. It is not a toy. It is not a tool of revenge. It is not a plaything. But that is how Donald Trump is using it. And what we're seeing happen here with this threat of a criminal investigation is actually very similar to what Trump is doing with the media. He's essentially using the legal system to try to silence critics. It's not that different from suing those who file a story that he doesn't like about him. He does not like George Soros because he represents a threat to Trump's causes and ideologies and worldview by funding things that are not ideologically aligned with Trump. And Trump is looking for ways to shut him down by misusing and abusing the legal system, which is very dangerous and very scary.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tyler, pick up where Liz left off. Why this hyper focus on Soros?

[Tyler Pager]

Yes, Soros has long been a target of Donald Trump in the broader Republican Party because he is one of the biggest Democratic donors. He gives lots of money to Democratic candidates, Democratic groups, and the Trump admin. Donald Trump himself has long portrayed him as this sort of boogeyman like figure. And in the aftermath of the Charlie Kirk assassination and other sorts of political violence, as Donald Trump has blamed the, quote, radical left, he's tied in George Soros into that. He's not presented any evidence of that, but he has long focused on George Soros as a political opponent and as we have been talking about, is seeking to use the Justice Department to go after them.

[Alicia Menendez]

So, Liz, I think one of the things that is interesting about this story in particular is the range of options that the reporting has us understand the Justice Department is considering. They could go after these groups by revoking their tax exempt status, their 501C3 status. There's been some reporting and talk of RICO charges. That is a pretty wide range of ways in which they could penalize these groups. And my interpretation is that how they, if they choose to do it is one question. But how they choose to pursue this will tell us the abandon and the recklessness and the aggression with which they are willing to pursue the President's agenda. The how in this case, as important as whether or not they choose to pursue it.

[Liz Oyer]

Yeah, it seems like they're considering all options, trying to find something that sticks, and we'll see how aggressive they get with this. This is incredibly unusual because the mission of finding charges to stick against a specific person, it's just not the way the justice system works. We do see mandates from attorneys general saying that certain prosecutorial priorities will be the focus of the department under their leadership. It might be narcotics involved, it might be immigration enforcement, it might be fraud and public corruption. But the idea that all U.S. attorneys in six districts are being asked to look into charges against a specific person is just very unusual. It's really chilling, frankly. And it's putting the career staff of the department, who are going to have to work on those investigations in very difficult, untenable situations. We could potentially see a lot of attrition from the department if lawyers are forced to make choices about whether they can conduct themselves in good faith and consistent with their professional obligations while carrying out these sorts of directives from the leadership of the department.

[Alicia Menendez]

And Tyler, it gives us a window into the ecosystem in which this is all happening. You have a lawyer working with Todd Blanch citing a report from a right wing watchdog group as the basis for this. I mean, I think we've talked a lot about Project 2025 and the way that is now informing policy and regulatory activity in the. The fact that a right wing watchdog group is somehow activating legal action on the part of DOJ tells you something about who this White House is listening to.

[Tyler Pager]

Yeah, absolutely. And we've seen that just escalate over the course of this administration and Donald Trump's political career. I mean, it's reminiscent of the way in which Donald Trump has reimagined the White House press pool to ensure that there are more friendly voices, friendly people inside the Oval Office, this asking him questions, and fewer of, you know, mainstream journalism outlets being able to ask questions on behalf of the American people. He is reimagining the universe of people that he's hearing from and that have an opportunity to ask him questions. And elevating them as reliable sources of information. And so we're seeing that pathway lead to this exact thing where they are, you know, the Justice Department is jumping onto that to try to use it in sort of criminal investigations.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tyler.

[Tyler Pager]

Potential criminal investigations.

[Alicia Menendez]

Yeah, potential. Doing a lot of work there. Tyler Pager, Liz Oyer, thank you both so much for joining us today. Up next, the leading Democrat on the committee overseeing the FCC sending a warning to the station owners still refusing to air Jimmy Kimmel. That story when we come back.

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[Donald Trump]

We are back to work doing our show for.

[Alicia Menendez]

Not all of the country.

[Donald Trump]

Doing our show for most of the country. We are still not on the air on a number of ABC affiliates including Seattle, Portland, Washington, D.C. nashville, New Orleans, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, about 30 more. And if you are watching from One of those cities. Please know that the person you are looking at right now is not me. Okay? Right, Guillermo. Right, Jimmy?

[Alicia Menendez]

That's right. Yeah.

[Donald Trump]

I'm gonna tell you something. Thank God they're not preempting the new season of the Golden Bachelor because of this. The FCC might not like jokes about the President, but they are still very okay with Pop Pop getting a squeezer in a Jacuzzi. And I think we can all be very grateful for that.

[Alicia Menendez]

As Kimmel mentioned, Seattle is one of the largest markets impacted. Sinclair operates the ABC affiliate Como, which serves the area. Protesters gathered outside the studios of Como with signs one saying gimme my Jimmy. Senator Maria Cantwell, who represents Washington and is also the ranking member of the committee that oversees the fcc, wrote a letter to the head of Sinclair calling for the broadcast company to reinstate Kimmel to the over two dozen affiliates where it is currently preempted. Joining us now, Senator Maria Cantwell of Washington. Senator, it is good to see you. Have you heard anything from the leaders of Sinclair or nextstar?

[Senator Maria Cantwell]

Well, Alicia, thanks for having me on. No, not yet, but this is an important issue. First of all, we don't like the fact that Brendan Carr did threaten these individuals. Not a role that the FCC chairman is supposed to play. And Seattle represents a very big market, millions of people, and had more than higher than average of all the stations in America review for the Kimmel show. So we know there's lots of people here and we know that lots of people liked the show. So what is the issue? Is it that they have continued to be threatened by what the chairman said, or are they looking at this market and understanding that the local community really does appreciate this show.

[Alicia Menendez]

I wonder what you make of the fact that Brendan Carr tried to walk back his. You can't even call it a thinly veiled threat. He tried to walk back what he said. What do you think was motivating him?

[Senator Maria Cantwell]

Oh, I didn't like it at all. Because first of all, we have this consolidation of media that's happening. We want to see many voices in media. We want to have competition so that you actually get true information. So if there is misinformation in the marketplace, it's corrected. So we love all these local stations, but obviously those local stations have to tie in to syndicated content. And we don't want somebody using the FCC as a bully pulpit just because they don't like what the President is mad about. So this has to be a better system than this. We certainly want to pass new laws like The Cantwell Blackburn bill that is called the Copied act, which makes sure that advertisers compensate local journalists for the content they are creating. But we don't need an FCC that is going to do the bidding of the president and push content off the air just because he's mad about it.

[Alicia Menendez]

I think there are many aspects of this story that are very interesting and very novel. I think one is the fact that this seems to have broken through to a subset of the American electorate who may not be following every move and machination of this administration, but is really under that they cannot watch Jimmy Kimmel and are trying to understand why that is. I think another interesting component of it is that you finally saw a handful of Republicans of your colleagues actually stand up and say, this is not right. And I have concerns. We have wondered where the line might be and the FCC seems to have triggered it. Senator Ted Cruz is the Republican chair on your committee. He was outspoken about the Kimmel suspension, I think to the surprise of some. I wonder if you have had any private conversations with him about this specific issue.

[Senator Maria Cantwell]

Well, we've certainly asked that Brendan Carr be brought before the Commerce Committee. We think that this is an important issue. We don't want to see all this content only behind a paywall. We like the fact that there's still broadcast television that has the choice to put on content that, yes, you have to watch a lot of advertising, but you get to see this without having to, you know, be behind a paid situation. So. But you're right, you know, listen, I fight the tariff fight. And while I've had Republicans help me fight against tariffs, no, this issue has broken through. It's broken through because now a lot of Americans are just saying what the heck is happening? How come I can't watch Kimmel? And it's gotten so much national attention. People who may not be following the day to day of politics want to know what the heck got this guy thrown off the air and is this going to happen to everybody, that people don't like his free speech? So that's the, that I do think you're picking up on something, that it is resonating with more people than any other issue has resonated because it's just a clear thing that they don't, that they, it doesn't compute with them.

[Alicia Menendez]

One of the wild things, many wild things about the timeline that you and I are living in, Senator, is that all of the stories we are covering, right, Senate committee investigations into the fcc, the discharge petition that we could see on the Epstein files being voted on in the House as early as October is all happening in the shadow of a looming government shutdown. Do you think we see the government shutdown in the next five days?

[Senator Maria Cantwell]

Well, I'm doing everything I can to make sure that we address a really important shutdown issue, and that is that cheap health insurance is going to disappear in the next 60 days. That is, it's not going to happen in December 31st. There are states that have put out notices. In fact, I'm issuing a report today. 29 states have proposed health and proposed health insurance rates of more than a 20% increase. That means a family of four making $80,000 is going to pay $3,000 more each year for health insurance. And so these notices are going out now. The enrollment period starts as early as October 15th and many states in November. So our Repub colleagues say, well, we don't want to deal with that. But this is the crisis of Trumpflation, the high rise of cost, and now we're going to see a high rise in insurance costs because they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk to us about a solution. So we're going to do everything we can to say this issue. You need to at least give us a meeting and talk about what it is, is the plan. But you can't raise these rates for 2026 in the next three weeks and think Americans are going to be happy about it. They're not going to be happy.

[Alicia Menendez]

They don't want to talk about this issue and they certainly do not want to see that discharge petition to see the light of day. Senator Maria Cantwell of Washington, thank you so much for joining us today. When we come back, millions and millions of people tuned in to tell Donald Trump he does not have the power to come after free speech, not in this country, and talk about the cultural backlash against him. And if it's here to stay, stay with us. It has been extraordinary to watch just these past few days, the ways in which disparate corners of the entertainment industry, powerhouses of art and culture, have acted in unison in condemnation of the Trump administration's apparent crackdown on free speech. At the center of it all, Jimmy Kimmel himself took time last night to refute Trump's latest remarks.

[Donald Trump]

Moments after we taped our show last night, the mad Red Hatter wrote, I can't believe ABC Fake News gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back. You can't believe they gave me my job back. I can't believe we gave you your job Back, this was his big closer. Let Jimmy Kimmel rot in his bad ratings. And he does know bad ratings. He has some of the worst ratings.

[Alicia Menendez]

Any president has ever had.

[Ted Danson]

So.

[Donald Trump]

On behalf of all of us, welcome to the crappy ratings club.

[Alicia Menendez]

Mr. President, do want to salute the producer who chose to maintain those erratic capitalizations that Trump does. That biting sort of response, it is not unique to Kimmel. South park, in addition to poking fun at Trump, last night also targeted Brendan Carr and slapstick manner. Gonna let you watch that one for yourselves, preferably when there are no kids in the room. But in the meantime, just recognize the cultural pushback when you see it. Joining me now, former Democratic senator and MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill. And with me at the table, Oliver Darcy. He is the author of the newsletter Status, which covers all things media. You know, I think when Kimmel came back, Oliver, and he came right out the gate and acknowledged the elephant in the room and did not mince words, there was a part of me that wondered like, was it check and done? Did he cross it off the list? So the fact that he is continually coming back for more is an indicator to me that he both has the appetite for it and that he believes his audience does as well and that.

[Oliver Darcy]

He believes that Disney has his back as well. Disney obviously pulled him off the air, then put him back on the air on Tuesday, and he, you know, I think there was questions, like you said, was he going to be delivering a more sanitized monologue, a more sanitized Trump free show? No, he's not. And I think the fact that he is going there signals that Disney has decided that, look, we can either kneel down, which is probably not gonna work, or we can stand up and fight. And they've let Jimmy Kimmel loose on Donald Trump and he is not, you know, he is not sparing him at all.

[Alicia Menendez]

We're gonna come back to the question of Disney. But first, Claire, I want you to take a listen to a little bit more of Jimmy Camill's monologue from last night.

[Donald Trump]

What I'm going to show you are real, unedited text messages some of my co workers got while we're off the air. This was to Rachel, who's one of our segment coordinators, from her aunt. When she got the news that we were off the air, she said, hey, sweetie, is it Kimmel or Fallon that you currently work for? Sadly, it was me. This was to Catherine, associate producer here, on a text with her mom and sister. CNN says you're canceled indefinitely. Who Knows. Absolutely disgusting. So her mom sends her a link to job openings in New York, then says, what does this mean for you? No clue. Are you at work? What are people saying? It said, starting with tonight's show. Yes. They just said our show for tonight and tomorrow is canceled. Just now or long term? No clue. No one knows. Wild, I'm sure you do know. So do you still go into work? No, we don't know.

[Alicia Menendez]

It's so comforting, Claire, to know that everyone is texting with their mom exactly as I am, and they want insider information. My salute to all the MSNBC moms out there. What is ironic, Claire, is that it seems the President has actually opened the door for Jimmy Kimmel to be even more political and even more critical than he was prior to being suspended.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, I don't think this turned out the way that Brendan Carr envisioned or the way Donald Trump envisioned. The bottom line is the majority of this country, including Republicans, want us to have free speech, including political humor. And if you've watched political humor, I mean, they go after both sides. I mean, these guys did some brutal humor around Joe Biden when he was president. This is something that's very American. It's something we cherish. And when they did this, it set off a firestorm in this country, as you mentioned earlier. It's not like shutting down the government or doing away with climate change stuff. All that stuff's really, really important. But this is something that really touched people in a way, especially people who don't do politics, who don't pay attention to the news every day like we do. So I don't think this worked out. And by the way, I'm not sure it's working out for companies that are still keeping Kimmel off the air. They are in major cities, and in these major cities, their advertisers are losing eyeballs on their local news every night because of what they're doing.

[Alicia Menendez]

Let's come back to Disney for that reason. I mean, do you think they were doing just the morally correct thing because they woke up one day and realized it? Is it about the pressure from their audience? What is their next move with nexstar and Sinclair?

[Oliver Darcy]

I think. I mean, they obviously want nextar and Sinclair to air their program. The question is, how do they get to that spot? And I think right now they're just waiting for the kids to come back to the table, thinking that maybe nexstar and Sinclair are basically behaving like children throwing a tantrum. They've gone off and you just sit at the table and they'll come back and they want to eat right. And so I think that's the move that Disney's seeing. What happens right now, whether the kids come back to the table is the question. And if they don't, then what does Disney do next door? And Sinclair cannot forever preempt Jimmy Kimmel show. They have a contract with Disney. They need to air their programming. They have a certain amount of episodes likely that they can choose to skip. But this can't go on forever. The question is if they keep doing it, what happens? Does Disney notify them that they're in breach of contract? Does Disney pull some other levers they do give them Good Morning America World News Tonight, who wants to be a Millionaire? There's a lot of programming that Disney can start to or at least threaten to pull if these stations don't fall into line. But that would trigger something fairly unprecedented. A total war between nexstar, Sinclair and Disney. And I'm not sure any party wants that. So hopefully there's a resolution that's reached.

[Alicia Menendez]

To just go back to the example you were using of children who've left the table having a tantrum and coming back. I wonder where the ideological drive and the agenda of Sinclair and nexstar play into that calculation. Right. Are they really that concerned with the programming they're receiving or are they more concerned with the advancement of their agenda?

[Oliver Darcy]

My guess is that they are concerned about their billion dollar deal that they have to get done. I think everyone knows by now nexdar is trying to buy Tegna, another local station center. It's a $6.2 billion deal and Brendon Cart, the FCC needs to approve it and kind of waiting in the wings is the right wing Sinclair and so they're jockeying for that Tegna Group as well. I think the issue is if nexstar puts Jimmy Kimmel back on the air, that's not going to curry favor with Brendan Carr given that he's made his position known quite clearly. The fear I think would be that let's say nexstar says we're going to start airing Jimmy Kimmel in our networks. Maybe Sinclair says, look, Brent and Carr, they're not so good. We might be a better suitor for Tegna. I think that's the concern. Who blinks first remains to be seen. I suspect it will be nextar but there is a lot of financial pressure on these companies not to put Jimmy Kimmel back on the air.

[Alicia Menendez]

I have less than a minute left, Claire, but I do want to ask you where you think Ted Cruz and the Republicans who have found their spine on this play in.

[Claire McCaskill]

Yeah, I think Ted Cruz made a smart political play. I think he read the room and I think he would like to someday run for president and say I stood up for the First Amendment when other people in my party were afraid to. How much do you care about your freedom of speech? I'm your guy. And I will say as the nexstar and Sinclair, they are going to lose local average advertising dollars in major cities that they have stations and they need those local advertising dollars if they continue down this road. To say nothing about the contractual obligation they have with abc. I get they want Brendan Carr to love them so they can gobble up more stations. But in the meantime, they're losing a lot of viewers and those local advertising dollars of the evening news are going elsewhere.

[Alicia Menendez]

Oliver Darcy, thank you so much for being at the table. Claire McCaskill, you are going nowhere. You are staying with me in the next hour after plea to the Supreme Court from the country's top economic leaders of the past several decades. We're going to tell you about that next. Some breaking news from Fed Governor Lisa Cook. She filed just this last hour with the Supreme Court urging them to reject President Donald Trump from trying to fire her in relation to the allegations from Trump about mortgage fraud. Cook's lawyers write that she committed neither fraud nor gross negligence. She also received a remarkable show of support earlier today. Every single living former Fed chair filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court alongside some of the country's other top economic leaders, urging them to not allow Donald Trump to fire her. The bipartisan group highlighted the notorious case of Richard Nixon putting political pressure on the Fed and the real economic fallout that came with that. An inflationary boom and deep recession that took years to bring back under control. Going to keep you updated on that case. Just ahead for us, though, the White House continue to try and quash the Jeffrey Epstein story. The latest reporting on that right after this quick break. Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rol rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls.

[Senator Maria Cantwell]

Out of Page Six?

[Alicia Menendez]

Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx, nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of.

[Senator Maria Cantwell]

All, it's off camera.

[Alicia Menendez]

And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Ripa now. Wherever you get your podcasts.