“Alarms are flashing red”

Summary

Deadline: White House — “Alarms are flashing red”

Date: September 26, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace

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Overview

This episode of Deadline: White House grapples with the shocking indictment of former FBI Director James Comey by the Trump Department of Justice. Wallace explores the dangerous implications for democracy, the apparent escalation of Trump’s political retribution, and the growing alarm among legal, intelligence, and historical experts. Key guests include former CIA Director John Brennan, voting rights attorney Marc Elias, and historian Timothy Snyder, author of On Tyranny. Together, they assess the legal, moral, and existential threats facing the rule of law in America and urge citizens and institutions to resist normalizing authoritarian tactics.

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Segment 1: The Indictment of James Comey — A Dangerous Precedent

[00:49–03:16]

Main Points

• Indictment Context: Trump’s DOJ indicts Comey on two counts, a move widely seen as the culmination of Trump’s years-long vendetta against the former FBI director.
• Retribution List: Trump suggests that Comey isn’t the only target; former CIA Director John Brennan may be next.
• Obstacles for Prosecution: NBC News reports indicate the revocation of security clearances (by Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard) has undermined possible cases against others, including Brennan, by discrediting key witnesses.

Notable Quote

• Nicolle Wallace [01:27]:
  “Indicting Comey is the fulfillment of an obsession Trump has harbored for nearly a decade. But the alarm bells are sounding today. The lights are flashing red.”

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Segment 2: Interview with John Brennan — Rule of Law, Retaliation, and Institutional Damage

[03:16–18:36]

Key Discussion Points

The Motivations Behind Trump’s Attacks

• Trump’s animosity toward Comey and Brennan stems from the 2016 intelligence community assessment implicating Russian interference to help Trump’s election.

• Brennan suggests Trump is fixated on perceived disloyalty or undermining of his legitimacy.

• John Brennan [06:52]:
  “He was very upset that the intelligence community assessment determined that Vladimir Putin...was trying to interfere in the 2016 presidential election to help Donald Trump in his candidacy and hurt Hillary Clinton.”

Legitimacy of the Charges

• Brennan notes several red flags around the Comey indictment. Previous investigators (including Bill Barr, John Durham, and career prosecutors) found no prosecutable case.

• Recent DOJ maneuvers, including resignations and the installation of loyalists, further cast doubt.

• John Brennan [04:23]:
  “There were several prosecutors in that office that wrote a memo...saying that there’s no case there. Also, we have ample evidence of Donald Trump...demanding that the Department of Justice bring charges against Comey.”

Institutional Integrity at Risk

• Trump’s second administration is portrayed as more overtly authoritarian, intent on using agencies as personal instruments of revenge.

• John Brennan [07:50]:
  “The damage that is being done to this country’s credibility and the credibility of the Department of Justice and our system of laws is profound and is going to be long lasting.”

Republican Complicity and the Call for Courage

• Brennan expresses disappointment at Republican officials for their silence and complicity, contrasting today with principled resignations during Watergate.

• John Brennan [11:38]:
  “This really is consistent with all of the stereotypical sort of actions of a despot, of a tyrant, and they shouldn’t be taking a knee to him.”

Impact on Global Perception

• American moves toward autocracy are being watched worldwide, especially by those in or from non-democracies.

• John Brennan [13:34]:
  “He is trying to just take apart and trample upon...those institutions that really define the United States of America. And he’s really overreaching, I think.”

On Being a Target and Speaking Out

• Despite threats, Brennan refuses to be silenced, emphasizing duty to democracy.

• John Brennan [16:14]:
  “I cannot see being silenced. What he’s doing right now, he’s really trying to intimidate a lot of people across the spectrum of American society not to speak out.”

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Segment 3: Marc Elias on Targeting, Resistance, and Public Power

[21:01–32:25]

Key Discussion Points

The “Shock” of the Comey Indictment

• While expecting retaliatory indictments under Trump’s second administration, Elias still describes the Comey news as “shocking” due to its raw demonstration of unchecked executive power.

• Marc Elias [22:10]:
  “I have to be honest...I was shocked...it is shocking in that this is the kind of conduct that you expect from a third world dictatorship.”

Chilling Effect and the Need for Resolve

• Elias, himself a target of smear campaigns, insists that intimidation can't lead to self-censorship or retreat. He stresses using whatever platform individuals have, large or small.

• Marc Elias [24:40]:
  “But the thing is, Nicole, it can’t silence us. It can’t cause us to back away. It can’t cause us even, frankly, to pull a punch.”

Public Action and Institutional Fragility

• The Jimmy Kimmel suspension and subsequent reversal by major broadcasters is presented as a case study in the potential for public pushback and resistance to have tangible effects.

• Elias appeals to listeners: use every platform—no matter how small—to speak out, since public pressure works and can even fracture institutions propping up Trump’s policies.

• Marc Elias [29:09]:
  “Institutions that do Donald Trump’s bidding are also fragile...If people speak out, that power will push on these institutions that are very susceptible to that power.”

On Law Firms, Universities, and Media Accountability

• Failure of major institutions to withstand Trumpist pressure is foolish and shortsighted, Elias warns, both as a matter of business and democratic responsibility.

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Segment 4: Timothy Snyder on Democratic Turning Points and Citizen Agency

[33:58–41:59]

Key Discussion Points

Historical Context and the Present Crisis

• Historian Tim Snyder views current events through the lens of critical, history-making moments, arguing that America is at a “turning point.”

• Snyder equates the present tilt as not left vs. right, but up vs. down—a choice between democracy and disintegration.

• Tim Snyder [34:57]:
  “The tilt doesn’t have to do with left or right. The tilt has to do with up or down—whether this country is going to tip over and fall apart and break into little pieces.”

Power of Collective Action

• Snyder cites the Kimmel controversy as “exemplary” of what organized public resistance can achieve—emphasizing comedians’ historical roles as targets for authoritarians because of their power to express collective truths.

• Tim Snyder [36:37]:
  “Comedians are important because comedians reach us where our own personal truths are when we laugh...aspiring dictators understand that.”

• On citizen action:
  “...sometimes you’re going to win when you organize and that winning feels good and that there should be more of it now.”

The Fluidity of the Moment

• Far from inevitable, Snyder stresses the next several weeks are decisive—what people do now will determine the future.

• Tim Snyder [37:49]:
  “I don’t see things. I see a very dark future if people do nothing. But I also see a situation which is incredibly fluid...our choices in the next few weeks will make a big, big difference.”

On Fear, Courage, and Normalization

• The goal of current tactics is to instill fear and make it normal. Snyder urges listeners to act from principle, not fear, and to “resist in the sense of being true to yourself.”

• Tim Snyder [41:07]:
  “They’re aiming for a different kind of politics in which everybody is afraid, and fear is where everything is supposed to begin...the only way to avoid getting to that kind of politics is to recognize it for what it is and to be as courageous as you can.”

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Segment 5: Democracy, Public Power, and Institutional Stakes

[43:34–44:47]

Key Discussion Points

Recapping the Kimmel Boycott Reversal

• Rosie O’Donnell underscores how public outrage (cancellations, economic boycotts) forced major media companies to reinstate Jimmy Kimmel after attempts to deplatform him, reinforcing the message: collective action works.

• Rosie O’Donnell [43:34]:
  “This is how much power we have...don’t let them tell you we don’t. When you sidle up to a dictator, you’re not going to have public support because they are the minority.”

Wallace’s Closing Message

• Wallace thanks her guests and viewers, highlighting the stakes and the urgent need for collective action and vigilance.

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Key Timestamps

• 00:49–03:16: Indictment of Comey and targeting of intelligence officials
• 03:16–18:36: Interview with John Brennan
• 21:01–32:25: Interview with Marc Elias
• 33:58–41:59: Interview with Tim Snyder
• 43:34–44:47: Rosie O’Donnell and public power

---

Memorable Quotes

• Nicolle Wallace [01:27]:
  “Indicting Comey is the fulfillment of an obsession Trump has harbored for nearly a decade. But the alarm bells are sounding today. The lights are flashing red.”

• John Brennan [07:50]:
  “The damage that is being done to this country’s credibility and...Justice...is profound and is going to be long lasting.”

• Marc Elias [22:10]:
  “It is shocking in that this is the kind of conduct that you expect from a third world dictatorship.”

• Tim Snyder [34:57]:
  “The tilt doesn’t have to do with left or right. The tilt has to do with up or down—whether this country is going to tip over and fall apart.”

---

Conclusion

This urgent episode captures a democracy at a crossroads. As Trump’s DOJ pursues high-profile legal action against his perceived enemies, Wallace and her guests warn that unchecked retribution and abuse of power threaten not only institutions but the foundations of American democracy. Yet, the episode repeatedly underscores a countervailing truth: public action, collective resistance, and courage—at every level—can still determine the nation’s trajectory.

Call to Action:
Use your voice, resist normalization, and remember: the next few weeks are pivotal for democracy itself.

Transcript

[A]

It's Stephen A. Smith here.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[C]

James Comey has been indicted, who is the next person on your list in this retribution?

[A]

It's not a list, but I think there'll be others.

[B]

I mean, they're corrupt. These, these were cor.

[A]

Radical left Democrats because Comey essentially was.

[B]

He's worse than a Democrat.

[A]

I would say the Democrats are better than Comey, but no, there'll be others.

[B]

Look, it was, that's my opinion.

[A]

They weaponized the Justice Department like nobody in history. What they've done is terrible. And so I would, I hope they're, frankly, I hope there are others because you can't let this happen to a country.

[D]

Hi again, everyone. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. It's not a list, he said, but there will be others on that list. Former FBI Director Jim Comey is now the subject of a two count indictment from Trump's Department of Justice, one that is under much scrutiny today among leaders in the legal community and beyond, but one that represents Trump's white whale. It's this thing he's wanted forever. Now. Indicting Comey is the fulfillment of an obsession Trump has harbored for nearly a decade. But the alarm bells are sounding today. The lights are flashing red. Four weeks ago, Trump told right wing publication the Daily Caller that, quote, it wouldn't bother him at all to see James Comey handcuffed and arrested on live tv. Comey and someone else, former Director of the CIA John Brennan. Brennan, whose security clearance was revoked in an act of apparent retribution during Trump's first term, is another frequent target of Donald Trump's attacks. But subjecting him to targeted legal scrutiny might be a little more difficult today than it was barely a month ago. NBC News reports this, that when the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard pointedly revoked the security clearances of current and former intelligence and national security officials over claims they were leaking she might have hurt their cause more than helped. Quote, some of the people targeted by Gabbard worked in the Obama administration at the same time as Brennan and could possibly be called as witnesses in the government's probe. But now these potential witnesses have been labeled by the Director of National Intelligence as unreliable and traitorous, which will complicate efforts by prosecutors to build a case against Brennan, the officials and legal experts say. That is where we start the hour with former director of the CIA now an MSNBC senior national Security analyst, John Brennan. Director Brennan, thank you for being here today.

[B]

Sure, Nicole.

[D]

I have interviewed Jim Comey. Not as many times as you and I have had conversations and covered major events together. But I think he had a sense that what happened last night would likely happen. He was subject of an incredibly invasive IRS audit. His daughter was fired. I think his son in law quit. He was followed by the Secret Service after he he took a picture of the seashells posted on the beach at the beginning of the Trump administration. There is still a barrier breaking moment that transpires when you take all that's been publicly written by Bill Barr and in the New York Times about Eric Siebert, the Republican blessed MAGA adjacent prosecutor who said last Friday night there was not enough evidence to indict Jim Comey. Do you think any differently about this team and Trump 2.0 over the last 10 days than you did say a month ago?

[B]

Not really, Nicole, because I knew it was heading in this direction. And as you pointed out, Jim Comey has been in the crosshairs of Donald Trump for the last eight plus years. And let's face it, we don't know what the evidence is that they have been brought to the grand jury that led to these charges. But we do know a number of facts that really, really, I think seriously raised questions about the credibility and legitimacy of the charges. As you pointed out, the acting U.S. attorney resigned, the person who was appointed by Donald Trump in the Eastern District of Virginia because he said that there was insufficient evidence to bring any charges at all against Jim Comey. Reports that there were several prosecutors in that office that wrote a memo to the new person that was brought in, that was deployed from the White House to the Eastern District saying that there's no case there. Also, we have ample evidence of Donald Trump very publicly demanding that the Department of Justice bring charges against Comey. And as you point out, John Durham, the special counsel who investigated over several years and many, many millions of dollars in Man Hours didn't find any reason to press charges against Jim Comey. Bill Barr, the former Attorney General in Trump's first term, also pushed back mightily against Donald Trump, saying there's nothing there. So, again, all of the facts that we know of right now that Jim Comey should not be charged. I worked very closely with Jim Comey while he was director of the FBI and I was director of CIA. Jim Comey is a man of integrity, of honesty. I had some disagreements with Jim Comey about decisions or actions he took. That is natural, but I never had any doubt whatsoever that he was fully committed to the rule of law and a commitment to uphold his oath of office, which he has done. And so, from the standpoint of projection, in terms of this Trump administration putting on Jim, all of these labels and these allegations that I think are really hollow, it really, again, I think, is more reflective of the Trump administration overall. That is going to continue to follow Donald Trump's lead as far as on this revenge tour, that his second administration is going to be far different than his first.

[D]

Director Brennan, I felt like it was important to go back and try to refresh everyone's memories of why he hates you and Jim Comey so much. I mean, what is your understanding of why he hates you? What is your original sin in his eyes?

[B]

Well, I think it even started before he was inaugurated the first time. He was very upset that the intelligence community assessment determined that Vladimir Putin, the president of Russia, the Russians, were trying to interfere in the 2016 presidential election to help Donald Trump in his candidacy and hurt Hillary Clinton. It was an intelligence community assessment that was done on this. Donald Trump continued to push back against that. We didn't say that because Russian involvement that Donald Trump was elected. We didn't make any allegations in that intelligence community assessment about what the Trump administration, people in the campaign, people were doing with Russians. We were focused purely on Russia. But I think Donald Trump believes that as long as that assessment is out there, and which has been, in fact, vindicated and validated by subsequent reviews, he believes it has undermined his credibility as president. Obviously, Donald Trump is somebody who is very, very petulant, very, very sensitive.

[D]

And.

[B]

And so therefore, he holds people like Jim Cohen, myself and others liable for this. And I don't think he's going to give this up at all. What is really quite appalling, though, is how many officials in his Cabinet, in the Congress, Republicans, who are willing to again sacrifice their integrity to be able to continue to support his efforts to try to again prosecute People using the Department of Justice as his personal law firm. The damage that is being done to this country's credibility and the credibility of the Department of Justice and our system of laws is going to is profound and is going to be long lasting. And so I'm glad that Jim Cohen put out that statement. He's not going to get on his knees and others are not going to get on their knees, too. I'm just waiting for somebody of some stature within the Republican Party or within Trump's cabinet to be able to have the courage to speak out and speak up and say, you know, he's gone far too far here. The abuse of power is something that we really cannot any longer countenance to what you're saying.

[D]

Marco Rubio on the Senate Intelligence Committee assesses that Russia preferred Donald Trump and meddled in the election. Durham finds that in his two and a half year multimillion dollar probe. Horowitz, who was the DOJ ig, finds that Crossfire Hurricane is properly predicated. And even under Ratcliffe, when the CIA reassesses the assessment, they find some technical process related critiques, but they reach the same conclusion about Russia. And I believe Putin at one time says this, quote, yes, I wanted him. What are they investigating you for?

[B]

I have no idea. I know there have been some referrals that were made to the Department of Justice by John Radcliffe, the Director of CIA, and by Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard. But I have no comprehension whatsoever about what potential charges could be. I am very confident that what I did and what my colleagues did at that time in 2016 to investigate and to uncover what the Russians were doing in that election to try to stop the Russians from interfering in our sacred electoral process and with the production of our intelligence assessment that was requested by then President of the United States Barack Obama. We were trying to do it appropriately, consistent with our authorities. So I am very comfortable and confident that what I did and what others who worked with me did was again, totally consistent with the law, with our authorities doing what was right. It would have been derelict, absolutely derelict, if the FBI and CIA, NSA and the Office of Director of National Intelligence did not, in fact, explore what the Russians were doing to be able to stop them and to raise the alarm that this is something the Russians will continue to do. And it's very, very unfortunate that again, Donald Trump and his people who are supporting him refuse again to acknowledge that and move on. We have so many challenges around this world. I was quite frankly appalled by what I heard at The United Nation from Donald Trump. We have so many challenges that we really need to bring this country together to focus on, as opposed to continuing to go back eight, 10 years and trying to relitigate things that have been, I think, appropriately addressed.

[D]

I mean, if you were trying to argue the opposite about Trump's affinity for Putin and Putin for Trump, would you have done any of the things he's done over the last eight months? The bizarre summit, the literal red carpet, the elevated stage, the physical intimacy? I mean, what do you think it is about the assessment of Russian interference in 2016 that is such a trigger for Trump?

[B]

Well, I think he has made it a crusade of his. And once he makes something a crusade and he starts to label individuals as his adversaries and enemies, he will go to great lengths to try to ruin them, whether it be reputationally, financially, professionally, whatever. And I do think that this is something that. That he cannot get over. He cannot move forward again. He is, you know, for somebody who has been able to amass, you know, such a tremendous following in the United States, and with his base of support that continues to be relatively strong, you would think he would not be as sensitive to any types of criticisms. But he is. He is just so sensitive and will react and tries to lash back, as he said very publicly, that he does not forgive his opponents, and he's not going to change again. I'm just hoping that there are some people around him that are looking at this and saying, boy, this really is consistent with all of the stereotypical sort of actions of a despot, of a tyrant, and they shouldn't be taking a knee to him. They need to be able to stand up. I'm old enough to remember Watergate and how Attorney General Elliot Richardson, Deputy Attorney General William Ruckelshaus, they resigned rather than carry out what they thought was very inappropriate orders from Richard Nixon. We don't have people of that caliber of that integrity and that dedication to this country in the Cabinet right now. How can the Attorney General actually follow through with some of these directions from Donald Trump? Again, it's something that is so inconsistent, not just with tradition, but also with the standards of the rule of law that I think really embody what America is supposed to be all about.

[D]

You've spent time in your career in the intelligence community, in places that were not democracies. I mean, how do you think places like that are looking at us right now?

[B]

Well, I think a lot of people who have long memories about what has happened in many countries around the world, in Europe, Asia, Africa, South America. See the steps that the Trump administration has been taking against the media, against the members of the entertainment field, individuals who had served in previous administrations, and the actions that are being taken against the universities, against law firms, against all of those pillars of what really is required in order to have a vibrant and lively democratic system. Public discourse, public disagreement is what makes a democracy healthy. Donald Trump doesn't like that. He doesn't like when anybody disagrees with him. And that should be a real signal to people, and again, to the Republicans in Congress, that. That this is so anti. It's not just undemocratic, it's anti democratic. He is trying to just take apart and trample upon, again, those institutions that really define the United States of America. And he's really overreaching, I think. And maybe as a result of this overreaching, some people are going to wake up and say, no, this is not for me. Now, some of them did that after January 6th, as you well recall in Congress, when they said, nope, count me out, and then they changed their stripes right away. But look at what is happening to this country just over the past eight or nine months. Boy, we are in really tough, tough shape. And unfortunately, I think this is something that he is going to continue unless and until the people who support him are going to say no. And I'm so glad that some of these US Attorneys now are resigning and saying, nope, not me. I'm not going to go along with this because, again, it's inconsistent with what their responsibilities and what their obligations are to the US Constitution and to this country.

[D]

Do you ever have a moment where the threats make you feel disinclined to speak out? Obviously, part of what bothers him about you is the criticism. And he's a creature of television. He hasn't really moved into the podcast space, as far as I understand from reporting. And part of what makes him mad, I think when Jim Comey wrote his book and talked about that first meeting where you guys all went up to Trump Tower and told him about, you know, the assessment and the dossier and other things. I mean, it is seeing people criticize him publicly that makes him angry. Are you ever tempted to not be so public in your advocacy for democracy and for democratic norms?

[B]

I cannot see being silenced. What he's doing right now, he's really trying to intimidate a lot of people across the spectrum of American society not to speak out. But I really feel it's my obligation. Again, I'm not a Democrat, I'm not a Republican. I don't believe I'm active politically. I am active in terms of speaking out and criticizing government when I believe that officials such as Donald Trump are really straying from what their real responsibilities and obligations supposed to be. But I know that he is intimidating some people and some people who are not in a position to be able to speak out and speak up because of their either professional affiliations or financial obligations or whatever else. Clearly, what I have said over the years, I think has bothered Donald Trump. And I think it's because I can bring some experience and facts to bear. If what I was saying to him, he didn't worry about, he would ignore me. But unfortunately, as people say, I've been living rent free in his head for many, many years. But again, this is a country that I gave nearly 35 years of my life in public service. It's a country that I love and admire. I love being an American. I don't like what is happening to the United States of America right now. And like Jim Comey and others, I am going to continue to speak out when I think that we really have somebody now who is abusing their power and undermining the very foundations of this tremendous country of ours that is going to be celebrating next year, 250 years of independence. I know that our founding fathers, if they were aware of what's going on today, they'd be shaking their head saying, boy, we never envisioned this and this is not what we thought of when we actually put those articles together, Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the abuse of power by somebody duly elected, recognizing that. But I hope the American people are going to wake up soon and realize that we don't want a monarch or a king or a tyrant or a despot. We really need to make sure that the president of the United States should be the unifier in chief. And when we're so polarized in this country, it really is going to depend on a president or people in, in positions of influence and power to say, we need to come together. We should not be going us against them. It's more we, we the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union.

[D]

Director John Brennan, it's a pleasure and a privilege to talk to you about any story we cover. A little more daunting when you become the story, but I thank you for doing that here. And I'm with me. Thank you for being here today.

[B]

Thanks, Nicole.

[D]

When we come back, someone else who has found himself targeted in the object of Donald Trump's public ire and threats Voting rights attorney Marc Elias is our next guest. Also had the indictment of Jim Comey at the behest of Donald Trump takes this country into a dark new place and moves us closer to an actual autocracy. What that means we'll be joined by our friend Tim Snyder, author of On Tyranny, which I quote all the time these days. Later. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[A]

Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman where each week one of us reveals a mystery guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you love like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind. Listen to Smartless now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.

[E]

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[D]

Donald Trump has, without evidence, accused our next guest of, quote, grossly unethical misconduct. In a presidential memo targeting lawyers, he retweeted a Truth Social post that called my next guest a quote, Democrat party hack and legal hitman, end quote. And he called him out by name when he addressed and spoke directly from the Department of Justice back in March.

[B]

With the help of radicals like Mark Elias, Mark Pomerantz. And these are people that nobody's ever seen anything like it. So many others but these are people that are bad people, really bad people.

[D]

Safe to say my next guest is no stranger to being on the receiving end of Donald Trump's relentless attacks and threats of political retribution. But voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy docket Mark Elias does not back down. He joins us right now. Thank you so much for being here, my friend.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[D]

What is the psychic impact for you in seeing the Comey indictment last night?

[A]

I have to be honest with you, as I try to always be, I was shocked. I wasn't surprised in the sense that we had anticipated that this was gonna happen. And we've been talking, you and I have talked for months about the weaponization of the Department of Justice against his political opponents. You know, Comey was not the first person who was targeted or even the first person indicted. You know, Congresswoman McIver in New Jersey has been indicted for doing her job in oversight over ice. But notwithstanding that, it was still shocking to actually see it happen, to see that Donald Trump told the attorney general in a truth social post that he needed to go after several individuals, one of whom was Comey, that it was urgent to do so, and then essentially triggered the firing of the then acting U.S. attorney that he had nominated. There was then this interregnum period that I still haven't seen a lot of reporting on in which another woman was apparently going to become the Acting U.S. attorney and then she was not, and instead his, his former personal lawyer with no prosecutorial experience was put in place and returned an indictment. I mean, it is shocking in that this is the kind of conduct that you expect from a third world dictatorship. It's the kind of conduct that frankly, in normal times would lead to impeachment. But here we are.

[D]

I had the same, I have to say I had the same reaction. And in covering every incremental development, I guess, from last Friday night when the Times under six bylines reported that Eric Siebert, the son in law of one of the most prominent Republicans in the state in the Commonwealth of Virginia, Richard Cullen, who was Mike Pence's attorney and his most senior counsel to Glenn Youngkin, that that lawyer, Eric Siebert, who had direct ties in regular communication with Pam Bondi and her staff, had not found sufficient evidence to either indict or prevail in court, that he was pushed out. From that moment to last night, I was still shocked. Even covering that closely, I had the feeling of like, if you know that sticking one of those prongs on which you roast marshmallows into A socket is going to electrocute you. I shoved it in and still felt the shock was sort of my experience of hearing this news last night and then being on the air. I wonder if you did anything differently, if you expedited any preparations for anything like that happening to you.

[A]

Look, I have been prepared since the moment that Donald Trump won reelection that he is going to eventually come after all of his political opponents. Now, that will look different. Like, for some, it will be indictment. For some, it may be harassment. For some, it may be pressuring employers. Right. We've seen already kind of a range of ways in which he goes after people. But I have been prepared for that, and I've been expecting it. But the thing is, Nicole, it can't silence us. It can't cause us to back away. It can't cause us even, frankly, to pull a punch. And so I check myself regularly, including as I was prepared to come on today, to not pull any punches, to not try to soften it, because that is then giving Donald Trump the victory he wants.

[D]

What do you think? Because I can just hear my viewers feel such a bond with you and to you and maybe more than just about anyone who's on the show regularly. And I think people, people, it is unfair and not true to say that people are numb or not paying attention. That might have been the case, like in the 48, 72 hours after the election. That's certainly not true of viewers of this program. People are paying close attention and they want to know what they should do. What should people do today? Now?

[A]

Yeah. So, first of all, I want to agree with you. I think people are paying attention, and I think that the people who are not paying attention are the people who are not listening to what the viewers and the voters of America are actually saying. And so, you know, kudos to you and the great work that you do, but also to all the viewers and the millions of Americans who care about these issues deeply. I think for my message to everyone is the same message I would deliver to you, which is we all have a platform, and the question is whether we are going to use the platforms. We have to speak out and speak clearly about what Donald Trump is doing to this country. Now, you have a huge platform. You have enormously popular cable news show. You have an incredibly popular now podcast. Right. You have a huge platform. But that shouldn't be an excuse for people who don't have as big a platform as you or maybe as me to not use theirs. So my message to everyone out there is use whatever town Square you have. It may be your bridge club, it may be your dinner table, it may be your bowling league. It may be just friends who you are in a text chat about. And what I'm asking you to do is to right now pick up that phone in that text chat, pick up that phone and call someone on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram, whatever it is telling people that you do not approve of what Donald Trump is doing, that it is not okay, that people are standing by silently, and that we all need to stand up and defend democracy against it. I know for a lot of people, they think, what will their voice do? What does it matter if they post on social media? Dictators are thin skinned. Donald Trump is particularly thin skinned. He cares about public sentiment. And if more people speak out and showed more courage, it would create more courage among the rest of the people and maybe, frankly, among a lot of elite institutions that have shown too little courage. And Donald Trump will eventually hear all of those voices.

[D]

I mean, to your point, Jimmy Kimmel is taken off the air. I think it's four days of cancellations and protests. ABC puts him back on the air 48 hours later, Sinclair and Nexstar have returned him to the airwaves as well, after saying, nope, not going to do it. It may be the single biggest act of the economic and public power of people. And, you know, I don't know the demographics of everyone who watches Jimmy Kimmel's show. I imagine it includes a whole lot of people. He doesn't always talk just about politics, and he has a broad base of appeal and support and viewership. But that feels, when we look back at moments that could be catalytic, that feels like an important one.

[A]

It is an important one. And what people did in response proved a few things. The first is that public pressure works. The second is, and I want people to listen to this and I want them to really sort of digest this. We have become so used to saying that the institutions on the left, the institutions of democracy, have been fragile and not able to withstand the pressure.

[B]

Pressure.

[A]

Well, you know what, it turns out that the institutions that do Donald Trump's bidding are also fragile. You know, Disney was as fragile to the public opinion coming from people who are upset as they were when Donald Trump was upset. The same will be true of law firms. The same will be true of our universities. The same will be true of all of our leaders, civic, political, social. If people speak out, that power will push on these institutions that are very susceptible to that power.

[D]

I think it's so amazing that law Firms and universities and companies are making this bet, one, that this moment won't swing dramatically in the other direction and two, that this is a good brand. I mean, Trump has a 36 to 42% approval rating. I think Fox has him under 40%. I mean, and falling 30, 36 and 40. That's the approval rating for tariffs, immigration and overall. I mean, everything he is doing at a policy level is unpopular and all of the tactics are unpopular. Today they put an ICE agent on leave, they temporarily suspended them for an investigation. I mean, nothing that he's doing at a policy level is going well. And that seems to make him double and triple him down on the bullying. What do you think the effect of that is? Politically right?

[A]

And look, you and I know each other for a long time through politics, through campaigns, and you and I both know presidents don't get more popular, right? Like, it's not like if he's at these numbers now, that somehow as you approach the midterm elections, he's going to become more popular. So all of these large institutions who are making this bet, all of these Republicans who are making this bet that they are siding with Donald Trump, they are trying to catch a falling line knife, right? They are catching someone whose approval ratings are only going to decrease from here. But even more so than that, when history looks back, and I don't mean history 10 years from now or 20 years from now, I mean history 5 years from now, that people are going to look back and they are going to ask themselves, what the hell were the law firms doing? If you are a law firm and you cannot stand up for yourself, why on earth would anyone hire you to stand up for them? I mean, you're charging clients thousands of dollars an hour because you're supposed to be tough and you can't defend yourself. If you are a university and you are supposed to be educating on the truth and you can't tell the truth about what Donald Trump is doing to you, who wants an education from you?

[D]

Right.

[A]

If you're a media company and you can't report without fear and favor, then what good are you as a media company? Like, I, I agree with you. I don't understand the business decisions that they're making and I certainly don't understand them over any period of time horizon.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, there's an unbelievable over indexing of Trumpism and I mean, that only goes one direction. You were here today on the breaking news of Jim Comey, but I know there is a ton of news you have to come back On Monday, I want to talk to you about redistricting and about Donald Trump's actions in states. Many of them happen to be battleground states. So. So we same place, same time on Monday.

[A]

I'll be here.

[D]

Okay. Mark Elias, thank you so much for being here today. When we come back, an indispensable voice at dangerous moments like this one. Tim Snyder, author of On Tyranny, will be our next guest. Don't go anywhere.

[A]

It's Stephen A. Smith here.

[B]

You want sports.

[A]

Sirius XM's got it all. Every game, every team, all season long. Debates, rants, hot takes and no filter whatsoever. Trust and believe. You don't want to miss what I have to say this week on the Stephen A. Smith show, only on SiriusXM.

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[D]

For democracy. To survive all of this, it is imperative that we not miss the forests through the trees. That is why in times like these, we need people like Tim Snyder to help us do that and make sense of it all. After yet another week of glimpses into the United States that Tim has been warning us about for years, a steady drumbeat of public embracing corruption and sharp turns toward authoritarianism in the rule of law category. Joining our coverage, University of Toronto history professor Tim Snyder, author of the best selling books on tyranny and on freedom, Tim, I quoted on tyranny earlier in the week and that was before Jim Comey was indicted. And I just wonder where your head is this morning as you watch, I believe from Canada now our country. Unpack this, this moment, this this sort of barrier that has been bursted through by Donald Trump.

[C]

Yeah, I guess I think a lot about time. I was, I was in Ukraine until just a little while ago and, and then came back to North America, as you say, and looking down from Canada now, and what I think about is time. I, I think that quite a few people are recognizing at this moment that things are tilting and that the tilt doesn't have to or left. The tilt has to do with up or down. It has to do with whether this country is going to tip over and fall apart and break into little pieces. I think we're realizing that. And a lot of good people have done a lot of good work in that direction. And I think the live question now is whether we can find our own little ways, big, bigger ways to react, whether we as a citizenry can not just take note and oppose, but actually present ourselves in ways that reveal power. Power that doesn't just slow things down, but power which is able to stop things.

[D]

Am I making too much of the single example of Brendan Carr going on a televised podcast telling ABC they can do it the hard way or the easy way? ABC obeying in advance, taking Kimmel off the public through their cancellations, through their bodies by physically showing up in protest. Other comedians putting their skin in the game and standing up for him. The complete reversal from Disney followed in the last two hours by the reversals from nexstar and Sinclair as a possible set of things to emulate. Or is that isolated and different?

[C]

No, I think it is exemplary. It's not typical, but it's exemplary. I mean, look, in some ways it's very important. I just want to, I want to stress that comedians are historically really important. Comedians in Russia were locked up in the 2000s, in Germany in the 1930s. Comedians are important because comedians reach us where our own personal truths are when we laugh. That's. That's because we're recognizing that something is true. And aspiring dictators understand that. So that's, that's important. It's also important, as you say, that there was a campaign that people got organized, that people didn't just target Disney, but also thought about the smaller companies, about nexstar and Sinclair. That's important. The other thing which is important is just taking the win, recognizing that sometimes you're going to win when you organize and that winning feels good and that there should be more of it now. All that said, I also want to acknowledge the thousands and thousands of other people who are being denied their voices and recognize that we have to Try to protect everybody, that this is a sign of what we have to do.

[D]

In general, what is your assessment of how bad things are this quickly?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I, I'm kind of in the mode of trying to assess how well certain people are doing because I don't really believe in things. Right. Like, there aren't things. There are. There are. There are people who are making choices. And the way that I see it, the. The people who are in power now are in a. In a rather small minority. They are overplaying their hand. They're doing things which are both not popular and contrary to some of the basic values of the United States of America. Almost no matter how you see those values, they're doing things which are dangerous to the existence of the country, but which also will and should provoke resistance. That's how I see it. I don't see things. I see. I see a very dark future if people do nothing. But I also see a situation which is incredibly fluid, probably the most fluid it's been since Trump came to power, in which our choices in the next few weeks will make a big, big difference.

[D]

Oh, that's a better tease than I could ever come up with. Our choices in the next few weeks will make a big, big difference. I have to sneak in a break. Can we have that conversation on the other side? Okay. We'll be right back. We are back. And lucky for me, Tim Snyder is still here. Please say more about what you just said. Quote, our choices in the next few weeks will make a big difference.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

This is the way that history works.

[A]

There are.

[C]

There are turning points, and you can decide whether you're present in those turning points or not. We tend to think in the US that history is something that happened. It happened a long time ago. They were the founding fathers. There was a civil war. There was a. There was a second World War. There was a civil rights movement. But history is. History is the way things work. History is the choices that are thrown up in front of you by what other people did in the past. And history is whether you decide whether or not you're going to make a choice. And now we're in one of those moments, right? The clouds are. The clouds are there. The clouds are gathering. There are these indictments which are absurd. There is Hegseth's weird generals gathering, which is weird. There is Trump's terror memo in which he claims essentially that the world is governed by invisible left wing forces that are responsible for all evil and Americans should therefore be arrested. It is clear what is going on but it is also clear, learning from the past, that how people respond is very critical, is very important. And response also means your attitude, that you talk about it, how you talk about it, that you define these things not just as illegal and unconstitutional, but also as just abnormal, that you don't want to have these kinds of things in your life, that normal people should want to have these kinds of things in their life. And then more practically, if you're a big player out there, you should be going on the offensive, you should be suing, you should be making the federal government react to you. If you're a citizen, you should be thinking about who you can cooperate with, where you can protest. For example, October 18, the no Kings 2 protests. You should be thinking about what you can do actively to make sure your voice gets heard.

[D]

Now, what is your sense of the success or perception of success that a lot of people have have in both the brutality of their tactics and the pace of their tactics?

[C]

They're aiming for a different kind of politics in which everybody is afraid, and fear is where everything is supposed to begin. And of course, there's good reason for a lot of people who live in our country to be afraid, specifically people who are not documented. But, but the only way to avoid getting to that kind of politics is to recognize it for what it is and to be as courageous as you can to make sure that you're not starting out from fear, that you're not starting out from what you think is going to help you avoid some problem in the future, but that instead you're starting out from doing the thing you would be doing anyway and resisting in the sense of being true to yourself. So they're trying hard to make fear normal. Whether it becomes normal is up to us.

[D]

Every word you say, I'm going to go back and listen to every word you write is one of our North Stars. Every day we come on the air. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for being here today. Thank you so much. Really meaningful. When we come back, there are new developments to tell you about in the Jeffrey Epstein investigation, including some very high profile people who happen to also be Trump supporters whose names have suddenly appeared here. We'll tell you about it next. The House Oversight Committee today released new files turned over by Jeffrey Epstein's estate. The tranche of documents reportedly included unredacted calendars, call logs and cash ledgers. And what appears to be a copy of Epstein's itinerary in 2014. It says, quote, Elon Musk to Island, December 6th in parentheses is this still happening? Another schedule references a lunch with tech billionaire Peter Thiel in 2017. And another mentions a breakfast with Steve Bannon scheduled In February of 2019, just months before Epstein was charged with sex trafficking of minors. We'll keep you updated on anything that comes from that investigation. Another break for us. We'll be right back. The news that Sinclair Broadcasting and nexstar Media Group will end their boycotts of Jimmy Kimmel is not just a win for democracy and free speech. It's a reminder, as we've been discussing over the last two hours, of how powerful we the people really are. Just ask Rosie o'. Donnell.

[B]

People saying, I'm canceling my trip to Disney. I'm canceling my hulu, my Disney. $4 billion in four days. Bravo, America. And this is how much power we have have. And don't let them tell you we don't. So target is knowing when you sidle up to a dictator, you're not going to have public support because they are the minority. The people that want fascism, the bigots, the racists are the minority. Most Americans, most Republicans are good people.

[D]

I first met Rosie O' Donnell 11 years ago this month when we were on the View together. We've been on a long, strange journey and she is my guest this week on the latest episode of the Best People podcast. You don't want to miss this conversation. Rosie goes there on her decades long feud with Donald Trump, on his threats to revoke her American citizenship, and on life in Ireland. Scan the QR code on your screen and subscribe to MSNBC Premium for early access to this conversation. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are so grateful.

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