"All hands on deck"

Summary

Podcast Summary: "All Hands on Deck"
Deadline: White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC
Release Date: July 7, 2025

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1. Introduction

In the episode titled "All Hands on Deck," host Nicolle Wallace delves into the devastating floods that struck Texas, examines the political ramifications of governmental budget cuts, and analyzes the ongoing turbulence within the MAGA coalition. The episode also highlights personal stories of individuals adversely affected by these policies, emphasizing the human cost behind political decisions.

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2. Devastating Texas Floods

Overview of the Disaster
At the onset (00:42), Wallace reports on one of the most catastrophic floods in the United States in the past century, occurring along the Guadalupe River in Central Texas. The flash flooding resulted in at least 90 fatalities, with many individuals still missing.

Firsthand Accounts
Victims provided harrowing descriptions of the sudden flood:

• [01:47] "Opened the door and the water was up to the door... I grabbed my wife and we literally jumped in the water and it swept us down to about 200ft down that way..."

• [02:32] Witnesses saw entire cabins and recognized the severity of the crisis only when massive structures were swept away (02:35).

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3. Government Response and Political Critique

Cuts to Emergency Services
The conversation shifts to the governmental shortcomings that exacerbated the disaster's impact. Texas officials initially blamed the National Weather Service (NWS) for inadequate rainfall predictions (04:00), but further insights reveal that crucial positions at the NWS were unfilled due to budget cuts (04:00).

Political Tensions
Wallace engages in a heated discussion with Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez and MSNBC Political Analyst Matthew Dowd about the implications of these cuts:

• [05:27] Senator Gutierrez confronts President Trump, asking about the impact of staffing cuts on emergency responses.

• [06:26] Ryan Chandler, an NBC News correspondent, reports that despite warnings, the community was unprepared, leading to the high death toll (06:26).

• [11:30] Dowd criticizes the allocation of funds, emphasizing that infrastructure improvements are ignored in favor of restrictive policies.

Wallace's Personal Connection
Wallace shares a poignant moment (13:29), revealing her daughter's college orientation coinciding with the tragedy, underscoring the personal toll of governmental inaction.

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4. The MAGA Coalition Under Strain

Internal Fractures
The episode explores the growing fissures within the MAGA movement:

• Elon Musk's America Party
  Musk announces the formation of a new political party, distancing himself from MAGA Republicans, which threatens the financial backbone of the coalition (33:09).

• Joe Rogan's Critique
  Rogan, a long-time Trump supporter, vocally opposes the administration's immigration policies, highlighting the fragmentation within the movement (34:32).

Impact of Diverging Voices
Claire McCaskill and Angelo Carusone discuss how influential figures like Musk and Rogan contribute to the disintegration of a unified MAGA front, making it challenging for Trump to maintain narrative dominance (36:47).

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5. Trump's Tariff Policies and Economic Implications

90 Deals in 90 Days Goal
Trump's administration faces scrutiny for failing to meet the ambitious goal of securing 90 trade deals in 90 days. Officials like Peter Navarro express frustration over delays and lack of commitment from trade partners (51:00).

Market Reactions and Uncertainty
The fluctuating tariff policies have led to market volatility:

• Stock Market Decline: The Dow fell approximately 400 points following new tariff announcements (48:01).

• Consumer Impact: Increased tariffs are expected to raise prices for consumers as businesses pass on costs (53:34).

Policy Inconsistencies
Wallace and guests highlight the conflicting messages from the administration, oscillating between using tariffs as negotiating tools and asserting them as permanent economic measures, causing confusion and undermining business confidence (57:12).

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6. Personal Stories: Impact of Government Cuts

Alzheimer’s Research Funding Cuts
Kristen Beattie shares her concerns about impending 40% cuts to NIH and National Institutes on Aging funding, which jeopardize crucial Alzheimer's research (79:46). These cuts threaten advancements that could significantly improve the lives of individuals like her daughter, Sally, who has Down syndrome and faces a high risk of developing Alzheimer's.

Veterans Affairs (VA) Funding Cuts
Veteran Ron Easton speaks passionately about the dangerous budget cuts to the VA, which compromise mental health services and essential care for veterans. He highlights the betrayal felt by those who served, emphasizing the critical need for adequate support (83:15).

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7. Conclusion

The episode "All Hands on Deck" paints a comprehensive picture of the intertwined crises stemming from natural disasters and systemic governmental failures. Through expert analysis, firsthand accounts, and personal testimonies, Wallace underscores the urgent need for policy reform and increased support for vulnerable communities. The discussions reveal deep political divides and the tangible human costs of administrative neglect, urging listeners to recognize and address the shortcomings within the current political landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• Nicolle Wallace (01:47): "I grabbed my wife and we literally jumped in the water and it swept us down to about 200ft down that way..."

• Senator Roland Gutierrez (05:27): "FEMA serves a very important function and while he would consider maybe restructuring it, he would not support eliminating FEMA."

• Matthew Dowd (13:29): "This is the tragedy of this and the extent of the tragedy of this was totally preventable because we've known on the Guadalupe river and that river basin this kind of thing can happen."

• Elon Musk (20:48): "If Elon Musk keeps his word, though, and he does have the funds to write that check..."

• Ron Easton (83:15): "I never in my lifetime thought that the biggest threat to veterans right now is the commander in chief."

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Timestamp References:

• [00:00] – [00:39]
• [00:42] – [04:00]
• [05:27] – [08:16]
• [10:13] – [13:29]
• [15:29] – [19:14]
• [20:48] – [23:33]
• [25:46] – [31:17]
• [33:09] – [36:47]
• [38:38] – [44:12]
• [45:00] – [48:01]
• [51:00] – [54:54]
• [55:57] – [58:16]
• [60:09] – [65:49]
• [66:20] – [72:48]
• [73:33] – [74:35]
• [75:54] – [89:18]

(Note: For brevity, not all timestamps are listed here. Refer to the transcript for complete timestamping.)

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

Deadline. White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and.

[Eddie Glaude]

Situations we all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes.

[Nicole Wallace]

All of our lives, well, better.

[Eddie Glaude]

Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it, but the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today. Hi there everyone. I'm so happy to be back with you. It's 4:00pm in the east. It's 3:00pm in central Texas, the site of one of the most devastating and tragic floods in the United States in the past 100 years. At least 90 people have lost their lives. Many others are still missing after catastrophic flash flooding Friday morning along the Guadalupe River. This time lapse video shows just how quickly the waters rose there, swamping a highway in a matter of minutes. The Guadalupe river rose by 26ft in just 45 minutes, catching countless people by surprise. Here's how some people have described what happened.

[Nicole Wallace]

Opened the door and the water was up to the door. Ran to my room, grabbed some boots and came back and water was coming in the door. I just felt the whole house pick up and been on a lot of boats and it felt like I was in a boat. So I said we need to get out of the house. So I grabbed my wife and we literally jumped in the water and it swept us down to about 200ft down that way and there's a crepe myrtle tree that we grabbed hold of and we waited for rescue. I literally pulled up my waterproof phone and started calling people going hey, get Swiftwater Rescue to come get us because we are like in extremists. We are in bad shape. We just saw like an ocean out there just like completely destroying everything.

[Eddie Glaude]

We saw like a whole cabin just.

[Nicole Wallace]

Floating down and that's when we knew.

[Eddie Glaude]

Like things were getting actually real out there.

[Nicole Wallace]

Like we were starting to realize that this was a real natural disaster crisis.

[Eddie Glaude]

As I'm sure You've heard many of the victims are from Camp Mystic. That's an all girls Christian summer camp. In a statement, the camp says that 20 girls have been killed in the flood. 10 are still missing. The camp's director died trying to save his campers from the flood. His grandson wrote in a statement this quote, if he wasn't going to die of natural causes, this was the only other way, saving the girls that he so loved and cared for. His impact will never leave the lives he touched. Now the entire region is in the midst of an all hands on deck rescue effort with locals from all walks of life pitching in. You know, I've got two babies at home. It's the least I could do.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, they're home safe and there's.

[Eddie Glaude]

People out there that they're missing their children or their family members. So I feel like it's the least.

[Nicole Wallace]

I could do to help being able to find the remains and perhaps let their families know some clarity on what exactly happened. For sure, I know if I was in that situation myself, it would bring me some closure knowing definitively what happened instead of continuously holding out, wondering if the one I love is still out there.

[Eddie Glaude]

Today. Much of the area remains under a flood watch again, with 2 to 4 inches of rain possible, up to 10 inches in some places as locals and first responders face harrowing conditions. Questions are also swirling, though, about the initial response. Texas officials initially blamed the National Weather Service for failing to predict the amount of rainfall on that NBC News reports this quote, independent meteorologists and a former NWS official said warnings issued in the run up to the flooding were about as timely and accurate as could be expected with the weather data available in real time. However, the New York Times reports this, quote, crucial positions at the local offices of the National Weather Service were unfilled as severe rainfall inundated parts of Central Texas on Friday morning, prompting some experts to question whether staffing shortages made it harder for the forecasting agency to coordinate with local emergency managers as floodwaters rose, compounding the issue with what looked like a shrug from Donald Trump when he was confronted with questions about the possibility that the federal government fell short in warning Texas residents and that his administration's gutting of federal agencies might hamper efforts to respond to emergencies like this one. Watch that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mr. President, are you still planning to phase out FEMA? Well, FEMA is something we can talk.

[Eddie Glaude]

About later, but right now they're busy.

[Nicole Wallace]

Working, so we'll leave it at that. Go ahead.

[Eddie Glaude]

Are you investigating whether some of the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Cuts to the federal government left key vacancies at the National Weather Service or the emergency coordination. They did not.

[Eddie Glaude]

They did. I'll tell you, if you look at.

[Nicole Wallace]

That, that what a situation that all is. And that was really the Biden setup. That was not our setup. But I wouldn't blame Biden for it either. I would just say this is a hundred year catastrophe and it's just so horrible to watch.

[Eddie Glaude]

That's where we start today with Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez, his district neighbors, that of Kerr County. Also joining us, MSNBC senior political analyst, Texas resident through and through. Matthew Dowd is here. But we're going to start with my colleague, NBC News correspondent Ryan Chandler in Kerrville, Texas. Ryan, take us through what's happening right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, people hold on to hope here. It is still an active search and rescue operation. Officials say they're still in the primary phase of this search now, four days after so many people tragically lost their lives, they're still looking for any signs of life, but increasingly likely, it seems they're trying to recover bodies. The number of missing people has gone down as the death toll rises to 90 now. It's just unbelievable to look out at the destruction that this river left. People here have an incredible amount of anguish and anxiety. Families want more answers about what happened to their loved ones, but they almost fear those because with every update we learn of more death. I want to say too, there are a lot of officials in town today. I met with Senator Ted Cruz to ask him on some of the very important questions that you raised, Nicole. I asked Senator Cruz if he would support eliminating FEMA like President Trump has suggested. He said no, FEMA serves a very important function and while he would consider maybe restructuring it, he would not support eliminating fema. I asked the senator as well about the National Weather Service staffing cuts and the Doge funding cuts and whether he has concerns about the service being able to do its job. He said no. He trusts the service to provide timely updates and do their job the best they can with the resources they have. But we are continuing to press officials about what went so wrong here, why people did not understand the threat that was coming. Yes, warnings were issued, but nobody here expected the catastrophe that was downriver. Trying to press them on why that happened and what the solution is now on a policy level.

[Eddie Glaude]

Nicole, Ryan, just for folks who maybe were following this, you know, on their phones while they were with family over the holiday weekend, can you take us through the timeline that's been assembled by local officials You've been talking to can you tell us exactly what you understand happened?

[Nicole Wallace]

Oh, I think that is most fully understood by a woman that I'll tell you this conversation I had with a woman just now who said on Thursday evening as the sun was going down, the 4th of July party was set up ready to go in the public park here. Yes, there were warnings tdem, the Texas Department of Emergency Management said that there may be flash flooding and they pre positioned some resources Thursday. Yes, the National Weather Service issued a forecast that was underestimated and warnings of possible flash flooding. But it was life as normal here in Kerrville. People expecting to celebrate with fireworks on Friday, having no idea the extent of what was coming down river, having no idea that 60 plus people just in this county would die that night. It's just a tragic timeline of shock and surprise. We know the National Weather Service issued an urgent alert blaring phones in the middle of the night around 1am Friday, but a lot of people here say they either didn't hear it, they were asleep or those warnings went unheeded. A lot of questions still left to answer Nicole honestly about the timeline and what could have been done differently.

[Eddie Glaude]

And Ryan, while we have you just tell us about Camp mystic with what you're reporting tells you about that place, a very special place and obviously parents and even non parents hearts break for everyone involved in the Mystic Camp family.

[Nicole Wallace]

Camp mystic is a very special place not just here in Kerrville, but for people across the state. It's been incredible, incredible to hear from family and friends back in Dallas, Houston, Austin. It seems like everybody knows somebody who is impacted by this because Camp mystic is such a feature of so many people's lives in Texas. It was run by two amazing people, the Eastlands, Dickey and Tweedy. Everybody here in Kerrville seems to have known them. Not just known of them but but loved them. They say Dickie died trying to save those girls and while they are shocked this happened, they're not surprised by the way that he died trying to save these girls that he loves so much. Just a real hole in the heart of this community here when we see what happened at Camp Mystic.

[Eddie Glaude]

Matt Dowd, let me bring you in on this and let me just pull back the curtain. Our last conversation about your next appearance on the show was a about a piece you wrote about trauma and now you are in the middle of the state you love with neighbors you love suffering this extraordinary heartbreak. What are your thoughts today?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I'm glad to be here to talk about this and I mean I'd just like to put some context, to follow something with what Ryan said. I mean, this is incredibly tragic, incredibly sad. All of us know this, who visited this area, spent time on the Guadalupe, had, you know, I've spent a lot of time in Centerpoint. I had a cabin on the Guadalupe. Guadalupe and understand the flood risk that's that exists there. But these camps, and especially a place like Camp mystic, just so people understand, this is a tradition that everyone in Texas, central Texas, Houston, Dallas knows of that, of these, of these kids spending time, boys and girls on these camps and this camp in specifically, I've talked to people whose grandmothers went to this camp, whose mothers went to this camp and then their daughters have gone to this camp. And so this is a tradition that's of Texas. It's now been completely shattered in a very traumatic way in this. I so disagree with this idea of like, oh, there's no way to know this thing was going to come. There was no way to know, you know, this was going to happen. It was, as Donald Trump has said, it's a 100 year event. How would we know? This is flash flood alley. As the senator I'm sure will talk about, this is something that we know about, that we should have been prepared for, that we should have been doing something about for decades and decades and decades locally and at the state level and at the federal level. The fact that we didn't, and now we're sort of dealing with this immense tragedy is so and so incredibly disturbing in this because this was, in my view, the tragedy of this and the extent of the tragedy of this was totally preventable because we've known on the Guadalupe river and that river basin this kind of thing can happen. Maybe not as bad as what happened, as tragic it did. But this is, this is, this is not every hundred years, this is every few years where these flood events happen. And the fact that people weren't prepared, that all levels of government in this is just so, so incredibly disturbing.

[Eddie Glaude]

Senator, let me bring you in on that. Your thoughts about Matthew's analysis that this tragedy might have been preventable.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, thank you for having me. I'll tell you, it's not lost on me, the significance for me today. I'm here in Austin today at the orientation for my oldest daughter. She's going off to college at ut. One of the counselors at school might have been at this orientation or the one next week. Unfortunately, she succumbed. And so her parents might have been up here with us. And today, unfortunately, they're planning a funeral. And so that's the significance of all of this, the kind of loss for these families. We saw this in Uvalde, a different type of tragedy, but just the only thing that these families are going to get used to is some duller sense of pain. We have to do better. As a state, as a federal government, you cannot cut 600 employees from the National Weather Service and expect some tragedy to not happen. If you're going to be reckless with government and this president has been incredibly reckless with the different agencies that we have to protect and service, you are going to get reckless and horrible outcomes. And we saw that on the state level. We have a governor and we have Republican leaders that control the purse strings of the state that have done nothing on flood mitigation. Now, their argument is, well, it costs billions of dollars. And that might be true, but guess what? Sirens and flood water gauges don't cost billions and billions of dollars. The other fix is sure very expensive, but we can do the warnings we can do. We can take every county that has a potentiality for this type of event and give them the kind of warning triggers that would have saved these now 90 lives and probably over 100 by the time we're done.

[Eddie Glaude]

Senator, I want to come back to you on the first thing you pointed out. You're at orientation, which is a different kind of trauma, a milestone, a happy one, but difficult on parents. And you're saying that there was another incoming freshman that was supposed to be there, but she lost her life in the floods. As a counselor at mstic, we read.

[Nicole Wallace]

About it, didn't know her, but you would imagine that her family right now would have been so excited that their daughter was going to go to ut.

[Eddie Glaude]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

And for me, it's just because I've got my daughter today. We're here. I just stepped away. I told my wife I was going to do this with you guys. And it's just, you know, all the hope that you have for your children, it's just all lost in a moment. And for folks out there that think this is some act of God, well, surely it is. Surely it is. But people in government, I signed up for government not to pray for people. I signed up for government to fix the problems that we can fix. And so for people that criticize me for saying, hey, we should have had these warnings from National Weather Service, we should have had the devices that save people's lives. Well, I'm sorry I signed up to be a public servant, not a politician with platitudes and prayers. I signed up to fix things and. And when you can fix something that's broken in government, well, by God, we should. That hasn't happened in Texas, not for a long time. And I think Matt can testify to that. Yeah. I mean, Matt, Nicole, I'd like to. I'd like to follow this up with what the senator said. The problem is that we have. And I don't want to make this a totally partisan issue, but the problem is there's Republicans at the local level, Republicans at the state level, and Republicans at the federal level. All of them hold the leadership that's necessary to fix problems like this. So we can identify specific things that could have been done at the federal level, it might have been missing because of cuts and all of that, or at the state level. And the senator knows full well there was a bill before the legislature that got defeated by Republicans that would have provided funding to counties to do communications, to do warnings, to do all that. It was defeated by the Republicans in the legislature. And, and there was. There was proposals at the local level in Kerr county to put together a warning system. It was defeated by the Republicans who didn't want to spend the money. And there. That's. That is a specific thing that obviously could be done. But I'll broadly just go follow up. The senator said is when you constantly attack government and you treat government as the enemy and you treat service and government as. As a negative, as people service in government as a negative, it's no doubt in my mind that when it comes time to demand that the government serve people, you can't ask for excellence when you've constantly castigated the people that serve government. And so this idea that these Republicans are constantly governments, the enemy. Governments. Governments and the enemy. And oh, by the way, we're going to ask government to provide some sort of level of excellence to serve the people. It's just two opposite ends that you can't bring together and solve that problem in this. And it's sort of. Specifically, there's certain things Republicans did that I think made the matter worse and could have made it better. But broadly, we have to stop attacking service and government as the problem because when it comes times like this and what happens in Uvalde and the police response in Uvalde is the Senator Fulnwell, the wildfires in California, all of these things that you have to have a government reaction to, Republicans have gone out of their way year after year after year to call government and the enemy. And you can't demand the enemy excellence if you constantly do that.

[Eddie Glaude]

I want to press both of you on what that might look like if we were to. I mean, we are the country that put a man on the moon. Why we don't look at government as heroic and capable of doing very difficult things and using technology and advances and being a magnet for the smartest and the best and the brightest feels like a conversation worth having. If I could ask both of you to stick around a few more minutes with us and show you how that is in stark contrast to the kinds of things, as you both pointed out, Republicans are saying today. So, Matt and Senator, will you stick around with me so I have to do it? Okay. We're also going to keep an eye out of any developments that come out of Texas. We'll tell you about them right away. But one of the issues that the senator has raised is this issue of extreme cuts, of demonizing the government and government, government workers. That issue is actually dividing the MAGA movement right now. We'll turn later in our hour to the bill that threatens to bust MAGA wide open at the scenes. We'll also talk about the scandals simmering just beneath those taut strains. Much more to get to when Deadline White House continues after quick break. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes.

[Nicole Wallace]

All of our lives, well, better.

[Eddie Glaude]

Despite all this, we often go about our people busy lives removed from it, but the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails. You can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today.

[Nicole Wallace]

MSNBC Films presents Season 2 of Leguizamo does America, an NBC News Studios production hosted by John Leguizamo. On the next episode, John explores Latino culture in Phoenix, Arizona. Phoenix is incredible. We're going to check out some sick lowriders, try some mezcal and chow down on Native American fried bread, but with a little Latin flavor. Leguizamo Does America continue Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Eddie Glaude]

State and federal resources have just poured into that area. Is there anything more that can be done congressionally, legislatively to help these folks.

[Nicole Wallace]

In a moment like this? We feel just as helpless as everyone else does. I've talked to my colleagues there in Texas, Chip, Roy and August Pfluger, whose family's, you know, that's Chip's district. August's daughters were at the camp. We also had Betty Carter of Georgia, had grandchildren there. It touches so many families. And all we know to do at this moment is pray. Every available resource has been deployed. The president, of course, is dialed in and watching this develop moment by moment as we are. And we will handle something. Supplemental funding requests as they come in. But right now they're still trying to do rescue and recovery. And our hearts go out to all of them.

[Eddie Glaude]

Quote, we feel just as helpless as anyone else, really. Some of the most powerful people in the government. Speaker Mike Johnson on FOX yesterday. We also have some sad news. An update coming in just in the last few minutes. Officials in one Texas county revising their death toll to six, meaning that in total, 95 people are now reported to have their lives across six counties. We're back with Senator Gutierrez and Matt Dowd. Senator, I played that because while I'm sure the prayers are heartfelt, it gets right at your point that people who serve are there to make a difference. And in the wake of a tragedy, perhaps it's foolish, but the most American thing to do in our grief is usually to redouble our efforts to make sure no grieving family goes through anything like this again. What could be done if we had the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, unfortunately, I think we've stopped doing that. We've stopped trying to fix things in government in large part because of what Matt suggested earlier. Republicans would rather have us go after some ridiculous immigrant boogeyman than to solve the actual problems that are facing America, which is a failing infrastructure at just about every level. What could be done right now? Mike Johnson could demand that the president of the United states hire back 600 employees at the National Weather Service. On May 2, former directors of the National Weather Service, both Republicans and Democrats, issued a letter, an astounding letter. They said, we fear what could happen in a catastrophe in a weather emergency, that there will be further loss of life by these cuts that are happening. This is not just the case in this agency, but so many more. What could be done at the state level? We sit on 20 billion or more in surplus money in the state of Texas. We can fix the radio towers along the border so we don't have the communication efforts that we had in Uvalde, the problems that we had, we can fix all of these flood alleys, can have sirens, can have water meters. You don't have to build a dam. We understand that dams cost billions of dollars. We can do things to fix infrastructure. We can do things to face lives. I lost a friend two nights ago because she was so upset that I tweeted something about these 600 employees. The fact is, if we don't do something about this right now in the National Weather Service, tomorrow in South Carolina, we'll have another weather event tomorrow in Florida, there'll be a hurricane. You name it. We must do something now. And these reckless folks that have caused this calamity, Donald Trump and his administration need to bring back those employees immediately. Easy fix.

[Eddie Glaude]

Matt Dowd, your thoughts on the opportunities, if a change of heart were even possible, And I feel dumb asking that question, I'm sure people will not appreciate it. But if this doesn't change your heart, if this doesn't crack open your heart, if this doesn't make you think, wow, it may cost billions of dollars. It may make me eat my words about slashing the workforce at the National Weather Service and NOAA and other places, I don't know what would.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I don't. As you played that clip of Mike Johnson, I was infuriated. The idea that the speaker of the House, one of the most powerful people, says there's nothing we can do except give prayers. And I sit here, I sit here on Lake Marble Falls. Let me give you a reference. I sit around Lake Marble Falls where there's two dams and there's a whole damned project that starts at Lake Buchanan because there was flooding that occurred in Texas for hundreds of years. And they decided to build a system of series of dams going to Lake lbj, to Marble Falls, to Lake Travis, to Lake Town, to Austin Town, Lake Austin and into Austin to create, to prevent floods. They built all those things when they had less money than we do today and they had less resource, total less resources than we do today in both Texas and the nationally. And I can't imagine, I cannot imagine somebody like LBJ after a tragedy like that, which that occurred in an area where he used to represent when he was a congressman, that area where he provided electric service to people and helped fund the dams that actually prevented people, more people from getting injured in other areas of the state, saying, there's nothing we can do. I'll just pray he would have stood up and said, we're going to have, you know, a moonshot Mission to make sure this not only doesn't happen in Texas, it doesn't happen anywhere else in the country. And we're going to call up, you know, have a supplemental bullet's going to be pushed through Congress. But this idea, Republicans response now, which they did in the school shooting that they did in the school shooting, and you the same response. They had thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and prayers like, oh, there's nothing we can do, not like gun reform wasn't an answer or some other ease, some other answer that we all know could fix the problem. But the fact that they stand up and say, well, there's nothing we can do, just thoughts and prayers. No other leader in our country's history would stand up and say that, that believed in the common good. They'd say, we're going to fix this problem. We're going to start tomorrow.

[Eddie Glaude]

Senator, what are you hearing from your constituents about the needs of the families of the victims and the families that have been devastated?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, the needs are endless, right? I mean, there's money flooding in, pardon the pun, but there's money coming in to help those folks. I think that the governor has talked about a special session. I find it ironic there was no special session after the man made tragedy in Uvalde. But that said, I hope that the governor says, okay, we're going to stop this nonsense of poor boying local communities. We're going to bring up the sirens that are necessary in these types of areas. We're going to create the water gauges that are necessary. We're going to put all of the necessary plans and implementations in place so that if this does happen again, we don't have this kind of tragic event. My hope is that this upcoming special session that's going to happen in three weeks that was already called for other matters at least has those fixes in there. Certainly we want to see relief for families. We want to see relief for people that are in need. It would be in stark contrast to what happened in Uvalde because there was no government financing, there was no help to those families in Uvalde. So it would be in stark contrast to that. But it's my hope that at least we take some of those billions of dollars that we have on reserve and fix communities in place with the necessary implements that we can afford very easily to stop this kind of madness from happening again.

[Eddie Glaude]

And Matt, as someone who sort of has written about and talks more openly, more eloquently about grief and trauma than anybody I know what, what are your thoughts about all the families impacted?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I mean, I don't think we can. I mean, this is going to be carried with them, as the senator said, this is going to be carried with them for the rest of their lives. It's not going to be, it's going to be a wound that exists in scar tissue that is in place forever. And that, you know, five years from now when they're asked about something, they're going to start crying in the midst of this, as we know in the course of this and as I wrote and you mentioned is that we have all of these individual levels of trauma and then we add up in all of the country level of trauma that exists. And what we have as a president and what we have as governor are not people that are trying to heal the trauma that whether it occurs at an individual level and tremendous individual loss or a state or a country level, they're finding ways to divide us and not bring us together and heal us. And healing starts one on one, but it also starts with a commitment that government is supposed to serve the community. And if government serves the community, then healing can take place individually and broadly.

[Eddie Glaude]

I appreciate both of you so much. Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez and Matthew Dowd. To be continued, please. Thank you for joining us today. When we come back, we're going to shift gears and turn to politics. How Donald Trump's domestic agenda is now dividing his MAGA coalition. We'll explain next. Today in Tarantulas in a Bowl news Elon Musk has announced that he will be starting a new political party to take on maga. It's called the America Party. And that news comes in the wake of congressional Republicans ramming through Donald Trump's MAGA bill, which Musk always hated. He called the bill a, quote, disgusting abomination, vowing to primary all those congressional Republicans who passed it, which is all of them. Trump responded yesterday by lashing back with a post on his platform saying Musk has, quote, gone off the rails, essentially becoming a train wreck over the past five weeks. If Elon Musk keeps his word, though, and he does have the funds to write that check, Republicans moving forward will have to do so without the donor support of a man who spent $295 million getting and the Trump backed Republicans elected last November, that money would be on the other side. It's not just financial support that's evaporating with this one, in my opinion, catastrophic vote. Joe Rogan, who is again, for better or worse, one of the most influential figures in American media today. Right now at this Hour. He's someone who endorsed Donald Trump on the eve of the presidential election, having a huge impact with his young audience. Listen to what he thinks of Trump's administration, of the Trump administration's immigration policies.

[Nicole Wallace]

We were told there would be no. Well, there's two things that are insane. One is the targeting of migrant workers. Not cartel members, not gang members, not drug dealers, just construction workers showing up at construction sites, raiding them. Gardeners. Yeah. Like really.

[Eddie Glaude]

Joining our conversation, former Democratic senator, MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill, and the president of Media Matters for America, Angelo Carazone, who I like to be here for every incremental crack in that narrative dominance that Trump and MAGA have had, that feels like more than a crack. When Joe Rogan says, really, they're taking more than the cartel members and the gang members. And I know he should have known better, and I think it's possible that Joe Rogan did know better. He's allowed to think, but stupid isn't one of them. But what Donald Trump is doing is pursuing almost exclusively people at work. The raids are at Home Depot parking lots. The raids are at. I mean, the gentleman who I had on his father was at his job as a landscaper. That's why he had a weed whacker in his hand. What do you make of the fissures or splinters in the MAGA coalition today, Angelo?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I think that, you know, it's true that I don't want to overstate one example, because then I think sometimes there's a little too much Chaden Freud, but you're right, it is. Rogan is an illustration of this much larger trend. And take a step back and consider it. What's important about the media right now is the MAGA media is that it's not one chorus with a single conductor. It's more like a music festival with a bunch of stages. And you sort of have to have everything oriented and organized correctly so that you can, each stage can work. If they're all pointed at each other, it's just a big cacophony of noise. It actually is a disaster. And so what Trump has to do in order to leverage that, all those different parts into a narrative and then achieve narrative dominance, which leads to political power, is that you have to sort of keep them all relatively organized and on the same page. And so when you have these small fractures and cracks that then start to expand out, that's when you start to have problems. So what you see with Rogan is not a one off. It's part of this larger trend. So, for instance, the Ovan, who's probably right at a similar level of influence as Rogan, when Trump was on his Middle east tour, he was talking about him a bunch. He's been throwing in his lot as well with criticisms of Trump. But instead of being the person exercising those critiques like Joe Rogan is when it comes to immigration, he's been hosting somebody like Congressman Tom Massey, who opposed Trump's legislation to come on there and rip it apart and to show all the ways that it is betraying the very people that got Trump elected in the first place. That's not a Democrat making those arguments or a media figure that is a Republican member of Congress. So these trends are actually part of a larger pattern in this highly atomized environment. And there hasn't really been a concerted counter strategy from Trump or the larger sort of Trump administration to get this under control. And on the side, they're treating Elon Musk like a little bit of a sideshow here. But as you noted in your intro, so it's a lot of influence and power that he can do. Not that he can be the sole person driving it, but he can sort of choose which fires to start or which fires to pour gasoline on. So maybe for the next two weeks he decides to do nothing but make a stink about, about all this Epstein stuff. So a fracture turns into a much bigger crack. And that's really what's happening underneath the surface of this narrative dominance is that all of these fractures are beginning to become more intellectual.

[Eddie Glaude]

Yeah, Claire, I mean, we've covered autocracy and how autocratic movements gain a foothold. And I've spent a lot of time focused on how the democratic pro democracy movement can prevail. But the inverse is how the autocracy or autocratic side fails, and it fails by splintering. And so again, not to overstate what's happening, but the, the Epstein story is a little difficult to explain. But let me try on the right. This information ecosystem, high on its own supply, firmly believes that Barr and then Garland and now Bondi are involved in some sort of COVID up that supposedly spans three governments. Angelo, jump in. If I get any of this wrong. And the people that spread those conspiracies are now the deep state. They're not the people running the Justice Department and the FBI. They're Pam Bondi, they're Kash Patel, they're Dan Bongino, and they are pissed. Let me show you some of the most influential people still waiting for this big reveal. This is some of the folks that have made life and death decisions about the kinds of people that'll staff our national security agencies. These are the right wing influencers that Donald Trump is extremely sensitive to. And this story, as Angelo suggested, is all that folks who are still on X are seeing in their feeds, whether they follow folks, folks like this or not. Because perhaps it's all that people are talking about, but maybe it's the thing Elon Musk is helping to get in front of people. This is what they have sown and this division may be what they reap. Yeah, I think they are going to reap it. Because here's the thing, Elon Musk is.

[Nicole Wallace]

Making a pretty good point.

[Eddie Glaude]

He's saying the only reason they're not releasing the files is because Donald Trump's.

[Nicole Wallace]

Name is in him. Now, I don't know whether that's true or not. That's what Musk is saying.

[Eddie Glaude]

And of course that drives Donald Trump crazy. But they're not releasing them. And they said they would release them. They said they would release everything. There would be no redactions. Everybody would see everything, all the dirty secrets about Epstein. And you know, the other thing, Nicole, to remember here is the other way autocracies splinter is if there are power centers away from the autocracy that can really make a difference. And this is where Elon Musk's money.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is pretty darn important. I mean, he may have spent 250 million helping Donald Trump gain the Oval Office. He could spend billions starting a new party and it won't impact his lifestyle. Billions and billions.

[Eddie Glaude]

And of course, the Republicans are also going to reap what they sow in terms of campaign finance laws.

[Nicole Wallace]

They have made sure that the wealthy.

[Eddie Glaude]

People in this country can give unlimited.

[Nicole Wallace]

Money many times without us even knowing who's giving giving it to influence political elections. And finally, money. This is where it's going to get.

[Eddie Glaude]

Really tricky for the Joe Rogans because.

[Nicole Wallace]

On the immigration issue, we all know.

[Eddie Glaude]

There aren't enough criminals or gang members or drug dealers that have come into this country to justify ICE having more money than the FBI. I mean, sit on that for a minute.

[Nicole Wallace]

The ICE now has more money to.

[Eddie Glaude]

Spend than the FBI, who is supposed to be doing all kinds of crimes that impact all of our lives every day. International drug cartels, armed robberies. And this is nuts. And they're going to have to keep going after innocents who have lived in this country for years and are just working hard, many of them paying taxes, many of them doing everything they should be doing, including trying to get citizens citizenship.

[Nicole Wallace]

So this is going to come more and more unpopular as Tom Homan and.

[Eddie Glaude]

Stephen Miller live their wet dream, which is trying to get everyone in this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Country who is not a citizen out of the country.

[Eddie Glaude]

It's so important to explain, as you both did, the why this matters. Right. This is not this lurid voyeuristic fascination with the deep recesses of the MAGA media bubble. This is about people who are hurting other people indiscriminately and losing both their public support and their political support to do so. We'll have much more on the other side of a short break. Claire and Angelo aren't going anywhere. We'll be right back. Claire. Elon Musk hates the bill because, well, for a lot of reasons, but in part because of the cost. But the cuts to Medicaid in particular are what will alienate the Republicans from their voters for potentially a generation. I mean, they're going to do immense harm to millions of people. What is your sense of how that will play out in the coming weeks and months?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, it's going to play out in two ways.

[Eddie Glaude]

It's going to play out in political campaigns across this country as we approach the midterms.

[Nicole Wallace]

Now, keep in mind they did that tricky thing where most of the Medicaid.

[Eddie Glaude]

Cuts won't really happen until after the midterms. But states are going to have to start planning now to spend millions and millions of dollars trying to set up systems to check everyone's work status every six months and all the other ridiculous barriers they put to care in this bill. And then it's going to really hurt because of rural hospitals and nursing homes. There are going to be their voters, which are primarily in red rural America. That's where the loyal Trump voters are. They're going to see their hospitals start closing. They're going to see nursing homes start closing. They're going to start realizing that the care that's been cut is their care. And when that happens, Trump can say the lie, waste, fraud and abuse all he wants, but it won't work because they're going to feel it, Nicole.

[Nicole Wallace]

They're going to feel it.

[Eddie Glaude]

Angela, some of what Claire is talking about is happening. There are reports about rural hospitals already closing or feeling the strain.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the key. You know, right now in the first part, we started talking about all the places where the right wing media is a little bit fragmented and maybe even at odds with each other. This is one place that they sort of have an impulse and a reflex, which is that they can take, they can deflect. So as Senator Kasko points out, they are going to feel it. But the real question is, are they going to connect those harms to the actions that the administration took? Because the one thing that we know that the right is going to do and it's the thing that they're doing consistently, regardless of where they fit on the bill, is that somebody else is to blame for all the consequences that you don't like that hurt you. It's definitely not Donald Trump or Republican policies. It's your local Democratic state. It's some other deep state actor. It's malicious intent, whatever it is. And that's the thing that we're going to have to pierce. We can't just hope that they collapse in on himself. You know, we're in this weird place right now where we're sandwiched with two realities. On the one hand, this fever dream that we could suddenly wake up from, but on the other, authoritarianism that can be entrenched and we shouldn't assume that it's all just going to pop and the bubble is going to burst. This is one example where the MAGA media machine will be in lockstep when it comes to deflection. And it's incumbent on everyone, particularly Democrats, to connect the harms to the actions that the administration has taken.

[Eddie Glaude]

We'll stay on top of that part of the story. Angelo and Claire, thank you so much for spending time with us on these stories today. Another break for us, a new record set in this country, one that should never have been broken. We'll tell you about it next. Alarming new data shows that measles cases in the United States have reached a 33 year high. That is, according to new data out of Johns Hopkins University, hitting more than 1200 confirmed cases across 38 states and Washington, D.C. the largest outbreak remains the one we've covered here, the one in West Texas. Officials there have recorded more than 750 cases of measles and believe the true toll is much higher than that. At least 155 people have been hospitalized across the country and three people have died, including two otherwise healthy children in Texas and a man in New Mexico, all of whom were unvaccinated. To understand just how devastating this year has been, only three measles deaths were reported between the year 2001 and 2024, according to the CDC. One pediatrician telling the Washington Post this, quote, it's a harbinger of things to come once we see a resurgence of measles. We know that other diseases are going to come behind it. We'll stay on top of that. Up next, the President's self imposed deadline for making trade deals with the rest of the world is approaching. And the tariff threats began rolling out of the White House today. We'll bring you that story when the next hour of Deadland White House starts after a very short break. Don't go anywhere. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, Nature makes.

[Nicole Wallace]

All of our lives, well, better.

[Eddie Glaude]

Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today.

[Nicole Wallace]

Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as we speak. Watch your favorite shows live.

[Eddie Glaude]

What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.

[Nicole Wallace]

Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app [e-mail] app start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite the.

[Eddie Glaude]

Second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[Nicole Wallace]

Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail] we are going to have several announcements in the next next 48 hours. And Joe, I think what President Trump is concerned about is the quality of the deals, not the quantity. My mailbox was full last night with a lot of new offers, a lot of new proposals. So it's going to be a busy couple of days. But importantly too, that President Trump has said that they would the countries would not go back to the reciprocal rate until August 1st.

[Eddie Glaude]

Hi again everybody. It's now five o' clock in the east with the 90 deals and 90 days deadline just two days from right now. Donald Trump's officials have moved the goalposts with a new message, new spin, a new Aug. 1 deadline for those 90 deals in, well, not 90 days anymore. Just this afternoon, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt confirmed that Donald Trump will make that change official with an executive order. The shifting timelines are leaving many of America's trade partners with more questions than answers. But there is one thing that is abundantly clear. Donald Trump thinks the tariff game is just that, a game and that it looks good on him. As one White House insider tells Politico, quote, Trump knows the most interesting part of his presidency is the tariff conversation. It's all fake. There is no deadline. It's a self imposed landmark in his theatrical show and that's where we are, end quote. Keep that in mind business owners far and wide. It's a joke. It's all for show. Trump is abruptly re escalating his man made trade war today, sending letters to at least 14 countries setting tariff rates between 25 and 40%. They'll go into effect on that new August 1st deadline absent any more moving of the goalposts or deals. Those countries include top US Allies like Japan and South Korea. While all of this is now been reported to be a game to Donald Trump, there are very real consequences to the volatile nature of his on again, off again tariffs. With the renewed tensions today, stocks fell 1%. The Dow sank roughly 400 points. Now, an extra few weeks could perhaps produce a few more deals than the current partial ones that exist with the UK And Vietnam. But as the New York Times reports today, quote, with tariffs threatening to strain diplomatic relations and bring some global commerce to a halt, a delay of a few weeks may not do much to soothe many foreign governments. It could also further unsettle financial markets which revolted when Trump initially announced his global tariffs, a meltdown that prompted Trump to institute the 90 day delay. They add this quote, his tactics have stripped businesses at the certainty they need to plan, resulting in higher prices, less investment and slower economic growth for the country. That is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. US Financial commentator for the Financial Times and writer of the Unedged newsletter, Robert Armstrong is back. Also joining us, CNBC's senior Washington correspondent Eamon Javert and NBC News White House correspondent Vaughn Hilliard. Vaughn, we'll start with you in that. I guess it goes to the category of shocking but not surprising reporting in Politico that to Donald Trump, the tariffs are, quote, a game.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think that if you look back at these last months here, Nicole, I would go to Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant back in March when there was dispute within this White House about whether these tariffs were a negotiating tactic to use as leverage to force countries to come to the trading negotiating table or whether these tariffs were permanent and here to stay. It depended if you Talked to Peter Navarro, Howard Lutnick or Scott Bessant or even the President himself who at one point said that they can be both, they can both be permanent tariffs and they can also be negotiation, negotiating tools. And it was that comment from Scott Bessen back in March in which he said, quote, look, it's not linear, it's an organic process. And here on July 7, 2025 we are still very much living that in real time. I actually just on my way out to talk to you Nicole, about five minutes ago, ran into Peter Navarro who was the very first one that folks may recall that throughout the idea that there would be night 90 deals in 90 days, that statement was made after on April 9th, this administration paused those what they call reciprocal tariffs, those high tariff rates and he effectively pledged and promised that there would be 90 deals that would come to fruition. Well, we haven't seen that happen. Two, maybe two have countries have built somewhat frameworks of partial trade agreements, but we are far from those 90 deals in 90 days. And I was very specific with Navarro and I asked him why there haven't been those 90 deals in 90 days. And he told me, quote, because the rest of the countries have it so good, they're dragging their heels. My follow up question to him was on August 1, why should countries take the US seriously that they are actually going to implement those tariffs and not just shove them down the line again if for example, the stock market falls? And he told me, quote, it doesn't matter. From the second sense that we're collecting billions of dollars on behalf of the American public. I think this is a live ball here at this White House as we watch these new deadlines come into fruition.

[Eddie Glaude]

Eamon, I buy enough stuff for kids that I am getting the emails about tariff price increases and I want to ask you about consumers and I have never heard Peter Navarro frame what he just described as basically a game and money pouring into the country in any language that helps American consumers. Where are they in all of this?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, look, I mean it's a real concern for American consumers as to whether or not prices are going to really skyrocket if the President follows through on these tariffs that he is announcing today. Right. So step back and look at what a tariff act. A lot of people still, you know, don't understand this. What a tariff is is it's a tax on American importers. So American companies that are importing goods from overseas pay that tax whenever the goods cross the border to Customs and Border Protection. Right. So the President likes to Talk about this as we're charging Canada, we're charging Vietnam. No, what the tariff does is it charges the American company that's importing. Now that American company has a choice. It can try to lower its prices by negotiating with its suppliers in Vietnam or China, see if they can get a better deal from those guys or raising prices for consumers and passing that tariff cost on to consumers. What they're not going to want to do is lower their own profitability and have to answer to their shareholders about why they're making less money this quarter than they made last quarter. That's never where a CEO wants to be. So generally speaking, they're either going to try, try to get it from the suppliers or they're going to have to get it from the consumers. And that means prices are going to go up to some degree, maybe not 100% of the tariff cost, but to some degree that those prices are going to get passed on.

[Eddie Glaude]

And Amy, just speak to the uncertainty. What does that do.

[Nicole Wallace]

For, for CEOs? This is really difficult, right, because they've spent six months now watching tariff rates going up, going down, being put on pause. You have a 90 day deadline, then the deadline comes and we're extending another month. They don't know what to make of this. They don't know where this ball is going to land. And so they can't plan. And so what you've seen is overall sort of a slowdown of, you know, economic confidence. You see that in lack of hiring. You see that in a whole host of statistics as CEOs kind of tread water here and look to see, you know, what might be coming next. The stock market is doing really well. We did see a jobs number that was good. So, you know, across the board you're seeing good economic numbers. But it's in a context where it's very difficult for CEOs to plan, to expand, to grow, to do all the things they want to do. So they're caught betwixt in between. And if these tariffs stay at this high rate that the president's announcing country by country today, some of that you'd have to imagine is going to have to get passed on to consumers and the take a hit in the wallet.

[Eddie Glaude]

So, Robert, you coined Taco and I know not in a derisive manner that it was, in your view, right. Trump was deeply offended, deeply offended, insulted, feathers, ruffled, all the words, but you didn't mean it in a derogatory way. And some of what Eamonn's describing about the health of the markets is reflected in the term you coined. Trump always chickens out.

[Nicole Wallace]

Correct. And I think from my perspective, which is the perspective of somebody who believes in globalism and believes in trade as a source of strength from the United States, when Trump pushes these deadlines back, deadlines back, it's absolutely right, as Eamon pointed out, that this has some bad effects on confidence and so forth. But I prefer that alternative to the world in which the worst of Trump's policy ideas actually go into effect. What we don't want is a mercantilist, anti global, poorer United States. So I'd prefer clear policy, but I like unclear policy better than I like bad policy.

[Eddie Glaude]

So Robert, just explain to me then that with the markets reacting favor, the positive reaction in the markets is basically Trump's policy impotence and political lack of will.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, I think what the market is saying is that these policies won't add up to much when push comes to shove. And it's very important, even as, as we've seen announcements about countries like Vietnam and today about Japan and Korea, these are more like frameworks than actual deals. And it's very clear that room remains for negotiat appreciation. And so there's room for the markets to remain skeptical of Trump. The push will only come to shove, Nicole. When the markets see a trade deal they believe is going to stick, the markets have a chance to respond to that, and then Trump has a chance to respond to the markets, then we see if he's going to chicken out or not. Right now it's all preliminaries. The game really hasn't begun yet.

[Eddie Glaude]

So Vaughn, does Donald Trump understand this, that the only reason the indicators he seems focused on are positive for him is because the markets think he always chickens out before his policies go into effect?

[Nicole Wallace]

Right. I think if you look at that one week In April, from April 2, the initial announcement of those massive tariffs, to one week later, April 9, his decision to, to kick the can down the road. For 90 days, the S&P 500 dropped by 12%. And literally the morning that he reversed course, he had posted on social media that he would never change his policies. And hours later he did exactly that. And that is where some of these pressures, I think, are catching up to him in ways that we didn't even see in the first Trump administration. The same thing with the China negotiations, those sky high tariffs that effectively amounted to an embargo. Right. As concerned consumers were about to feel the massive effects of everything from an iPhone to a kid's toy have those prices escalate to dramatic levels if those products were even going to become available. We saw him roll back and announce an agreement, but it wasn't actually a trade deal. It was effectively allowing, allowing products to go back and forth between the countries here. But I think when you look at, you know, the other reality here is that the powers, the act in which the president is using to justify these tariffs, it's the International Emergency Economic Powers act, which folks will recall last month a court stepped in, intervene and put a pause on all these tariffs from going into effect. And it wasn't until an appeals court the following day put a stay on that decision. So we could very well have an appellate court put a hold on all these tariffs before August 1st, after August 1st. So there's also the US judicial system here that is also a big factor in all of this that undoubtedly these corporations are paying close attention to, too.

[Eddie Glaude]

Eamon, you can't talk about tariffs without the reporting that Vaughn's been doing and the reporting in Politico about how it's all a game and a joke and a dare and a bluff, and even Trump says it's a negotiation. Let me read some of the reporting on how the world sees America and America's economy right now. You've got the global supply chain affected, and the Washington Post reports this about that quote, we think this is economic madness on the part of the Trump administration. We don't believe it helps the US Economy. We don't believe it helps the EU economy. We don't believe it helps wider global supply chains or the overall global economy. That's a senior European Commission official. How does the sort of reckless indifference to the global supply chain or global, the global economy or the economies of our closest friends and allies, or at least traditional closest friends and allies, how does that impact America's standing in the world?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, look, I mean, I don't think Donald Trump is joking about this, and I don't think it's fair to say that, that, you know, he views this as a game necessarily. He has a deeply held belief that people can criticize, and a lot of people in the business community deeply disagree with. But Trump has a deeply held belief that the economy has been the global economy and globalization in general has been bad for America, and he wants to do something to reverse that, at least to put the brakes on some of that great sucking sound of jobs going out of the United States over the past three decades or more. So this comes from a deep place of belief inside Trump's heart and mind about the way the economy works. Now people can say, well that's wrong, or look at the stock market or other things. None of that seems to matter to President Trump. He believes this and he's going to take this action if he can, as long as there's no short term damage to that he has to react to. As and Vaughn rightly points out, you know, back in April we saw that huge reaction in the stock market. That wasn't the thing that really got to Trump in the end. It was the bond market that really got to Trump. And you saw these spiking bond yields and that what that does is it increases the cost that the United States has to pay to borrow money. And we borrow a lot of money because of our huge deficits. If you watch the bond market today, you know that chart of the 10 year, it was up and to the right all day today as, as the President was rolling these out and the stock market, equivalently, you know, we saw two tranches. The stock market dropped in two different points in time as the President was announcing these deals or these, these new tariffs. So the markets don't like this. The bond market in particular doesn't like it. And that's one area where the President is really sensitive. So his belief on the one hand and then the bond market reaction, pain point on the other hand, I think those are the two things that are at odds here.

[Eddie Glaude]

Robert, just explain to me then the dynamic between the bill that blew up, the love affair between Elon Musk and Donald Trump and the explosion to the deficit that that bill causes. And whatever the market believes the tariffs to be, whether they think it's, as you coined, taco, Trump will always chicken out. Whether it's as Ammons articulating his one true, deeply held belief, which also includes a bizarre fear of sharks. So I'm not sure even that which he believes in in deeply becomes policy, but I take the point that he believes in tariffs. I mean, what are, is it, is it, is it just girding for whatever way the wind blows him?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, I would say Eamon is right that Trump has, does believe this stuff, has been talking about it for a long time. What I am waiting to see is whether the President is prepared to absorb any market or political pain to get these policies through. It's one thing to believe something, to be committed to it. You have to be willing to sacrifice. And I just don't see the evidence that the President is willing to spend any political capital or to face down the markets to enforce this view that tariffs are going to save the US Economy. I just don't see the evidence. You might. As a contrast example, you might point to the unpopularity of his immigration policy, which he does seem to be jamming through with a hammer in the face of low poll ratings. I just don't see the same conviction on the tariff side.

[Eddie Glaude]

Yeah, I think he's down to 33%, which shows a lot of slippage in his own base around his immigration approach. Vaughn Hilliard, thank you for your reporting on this issue and for running out and for running into Peter Navarro on your way. Thank you for starting us off this hour. My friend Robert and Eamon stick around. Our friend Eddie Glaude will join the conversation in just a moment. Also ahead for us, ordinary Americans are standing up and speaking out against the dangers of Donald Trump's second presidency. Today we'll meet a veteran who says Donald Trump's VA cuts are putting lives at risk and a mom who's worried about funding cuts for Alzheimer's research at nih. So both join us later this hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. The president has a reputation, self described dealmaker. So, so why haven't we seen the kind of deals that he promised in the last 90 days?

[Nicole Wallace]

Again, he didn't promise this. And when we send out the 100 letters to these countries that will set their tariff rate. So we're going to have 100 done in the next few days.

[Eddie Glaude]

And that's not a deal, that's a threat.

[Nicole Wallace]

No, that's the level that, that's the deal. If you want to trade with the United States, this is, but that's not a negotiation. That's just a, well, many of these countries, many of these countries never even contacted us.

[Eddie Glaude]

We're back with Robert and Eamon. I mean, Eamon, I want to come back to this idea that this is all wrapped up in doublespeak, that in terms of the way they talk to the American people and to small business owners who depend on trade and to our allies, it's all, well, that's the negotiation. Everyone's going to call 90 deals in 90 days. I mean, I, you know, covered national security, not the economy. But some of those same folks said there's no way China's pounding down Donald Trump's door to ask him for a trade deal that will never in a million years happen. I mean, just talk about the misread of how this was going to play out. Whether it's a game or not, it was a poorly Executed policy rollout.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. I mean, look, the administration has been saying two completely different things since day one about what this is all about. On the first hand, they say, well, this is not a negotiation. What we're doing is resetting the global economy. We're going to force companies to onshore all these industries that left the United States over the past 40 years, and we're going to recreate sort of manufacturing boom in the United States that we haven't seen since the 1950s or 60s. That was one view. The other view was, no, no, no. Actually what we're doing is we're using these preposterously high tariffs as leverage and we're going to get everybody into the table and what we're going to do is actually lower tariffs globally and have more free trade globally and we'll have more economic benefit for Americans across the board. And that's what this is really about. But those two things are mutually exclusive. So at the same time, the President says, you know, we're trying to bring in all these countries to the negotiating table to lower tariffs. He's also talking about and look at all this great new revenue that the tariffs are bringing in. So either you want a deal or you want the revenue, but you can't have both. And this administration has really been trying to have both and has been sending two totally different messages about what this is all about in the first place since the beginning of this second term. And the question here is what we're seeing is a transition from we're negotiating to no, we're just going back to setting the level and that's going to be it. You heard the Treasury Secretary say that in that sound bite you just played. The negotiation is over. This is the level. Live with it is sort of the message. And the question is, you know, is that good for business, is that good for the global economy and is that good for American voters? At the end of the day, Robert.

[Eddie Glaude]

What do you think the experience will be like for the American shopper, the American small business owner? Consumerism has traditionally been one of the strengths of America's economy. The small business owner has traditionally been a vital political constituency. Their needs and their day to day ability to plan and have certainty seem to have been abandoned by the Trump White House. For all their nonsense, they live and die on the way these things, things go. What do you make of what the Trump administration is saying to those two traditionally powerful constituencies?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I think they've said nothing at all. In effect, the biggest disconnect from reality of the whole Trump tariff effort, whatever. Of the different interpretations that even just pointed out you want to follow, the biggest disconnect from reality was the idea that there would be no cost in the transition from an America with high, low tariffs to an America with high tariffs to an America that has a completely different kind of economy, in effect, than the one it had before the Trump administration began. If you're going to retool America's economy and the world's economy, it is going to be a major lift and it's going to be a painful transition. Things are going to be difficult and weird for a while. And the idea that you can redesign the world's largest economy without transition costs, it's just baffling. And that has never come up. There's not been a peep of that. There was one comment from Trump where he said, oh, we're going to feel a little bit of something. This is a few months ago, I think. I think that's as close as the President has come to acknowledging the ambition of the project that he has engaged himself in and that even he's engaged American businesses in and that he's engaged American consumers in. It's a hard road he's talking about walking and he's not telling the hard truth about it. Yeah.

[Eddie Glaude]

I want to bring in Eddie Glaud, our friend and Princeton University professor and MSNBC political analyst. The political piece of this is it is the greatest political betrayal in American history. Donald Trump didn't win by saying what Robert just said. It's going to be really difficult at the beginning. Turning our tariff policy upside down has more than short term pain, but I believe it's in the interest of the American economy. Donald Trump ran on making, quote, the grocery cheaper. Donald Trump won. All the pundits told you and me, Eddie, because eggs were too damn expensive in terms of a political lie or a political head fake. I can't even tell you what number two is because this is number one by such a long mile. What do you make of the silent acquiescence?

[Nicole Wallace]

I completely agree with that description, Nicole. And first of all, it's so great to see you. I think it has something to do with the fact that Donald Trump, Trump and what he delivers in regards to these other areas matters. But what really matters is that he delivers at the level of this existential angst, that even though he's doing this, he's selling this idea, this notion that he's giving the country back to them, even though he's fleecing them at the same time. And So I don't, I haven't quite been able to wrap my mind around it. But there is something in the mix that allows for Donald Trump to do this on the one hand, but also receive a certain kind of loyalty because he's in some ways fulfilling a desire on the part of his base to snatch back the country from radical others. So it's these two things happening at the economic stuff and the cultural war stuff that's working in tandem and against each other in some way.

[Eddie Glaude]

What's interesting, too, is I endeavor to learn tariff policy. I never worked for anyone who was interested in heading down this route from a policy perspective, but I'm trying to inform myself about it. The absolute absence of asking questions, Eddie Claude, like what happens next? Or what happens if, as Walmart said, the prices of things will go up? Is another cliff that a whole bunch of Trump voters are going to fall off of around the same time that the 16 million people who the CBO predicts will lose health insurance, lose their health insurance because of the big beautiful bill. What is your sense of the absolute failure to ask questions and to tell their voters what to be prepared for?

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, Nicole, this question here goes to the heart of the problematic that we face as a democracy in so many ways. We've been dealing with, with the shorthand information, we just want to click and, you know, click, own the libs, own our opponents and the like, but not really be informed. And so you're asking a question about what are our individual responsibilities to maintaining governance? What is government to maintaining, or what does it mean for government to ask our consent?

[Eddie Glaude]

It's.

[Nicole Wallace]

How can I put it? I'm stumbling here, but because it presupposes that the citizenry is informed to give consent, not just to give it. Right. And so part of what you're describing, at least to me, is the evisceration of a kind of public space where the citizenry is actually kind of absorbing information so that it can make informed decisions. Instead, it feels like some of us are gaggle of dodo birds running to the cliff. That's what it feels like.

[Eddie Glaude]

Well, and I guess my only point is I don't have any special expertise in this area, but because it's what's happening to my country, I want to get smarter about it. That's why Robert and Eamon are here. You feel like there's a lot of just silent acquiescence. You've got Republicans in Congress marching over the cliff both on tariffs that they. I was a Republican. I never in 25 years in that party, in politics and campaigns at the highest levels, heard a single Republican advocate for the kind of tariffs that Donald Trump is putting into place ever. I was in back rooms. I was on airplanes. I was on Air Force. I never heard anyone suggest this as a good idea. So the idea that they're all marching along is endlessly disturbing to me. So to Robert and Eamon, thank you for being part of my economic education. Eddie sticks around a bit, little bit longer with me. When we come back, a brand new platform giving voice to millions of Americans impacted feeling the impacts of Donald Trump's deep cuts to federal government spending. A Vietnam veteran who calls Donald Trump the biggest threat facing veterans today. And a mom who fears for her special needs daughter's future. Their stories, in their own words, are next.

[Nicole Wallace]

As far as I'm concerned, Donald Trump is the biggest threat to veterans alive today. So understand that at some point in time, we stood up for you. Now it's time for you to stand up for us. We hope so much that our leaders will see the light or that we will elect leaders who are really focused on the health and well being of the American people and on folks like my dear daughter Sally.

[Eddie Glaude]

Every single day. And I thought about this a lot last week while I was off every single day. Beyond the constant tsunami of right wing disinformation and the maddening Doublespeak in Washington, D.C. about legislation and loyalty, are actual people, real people with real lives and real families deeply impacted by Donald Trump and the gop. Real families, real children in lots of instances, who have begun to see or experience the grave consequences of the drastic cuts made by this Trump administration already. Now their stories are being told as part of the mission of Home of the Brave. Behind it are some of the leaders of the pro democracy movement who have built a platform for Americans who refuse to be silent about the dangers of Donald Trump's second presidency. From gutting resources and employment for veterans to slashing funding for cancer research, which Ron Easton has relied on as a disabled veteran exposed to Agent Orange during the Vietnam War. There's also Trump's targeting of NIH funding for Alzheimer's research that Kirsten Beachy says provides a lifeline for her 11 year old daughter Sally, who has down syndrome and therefore a 50% chance of developing Alzheimer's in her lifetime. Ron Easton and Kristin Beattie join us right now. Eddie is here as well for this really special conversation. Thank you so much to all of you for doing this, for being here. I know it's one thing to sit and talk to someone, but it's another one to be on live tv. So I thank you. And Kirsten, I'd ask you first to explain why you're speaking out.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thanks so much for having us here. And I'm here with Sally and her twin sister Irene.

[Eddie Glaude]

I can see. Hi, guys.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hey. And we're just excited for these gals future, but we're also, I think, concerned, especially for Sally, knowing that the leading cause of death for people with down syndrome is Alzheimer's disease. When she was born, we were so heartened by the amazing studies that are underway, the advances that have been made. And we had great hopes that by the time she was in her 30s and 40s, which is when some people with down syndrome began to experience the symptoms of Alzheimer's, there would be better detection, better treatments, maybe entirely prevention, and that might extend her lifespan and her quality of life so that she can grow old together with her twin sister. So that's our great hope.

[Eddie Glaude]

Irene and Sally, you are so beautiful and you are so brave to be here on tv. There are a lot of people that don't do what your mom is doing. So I hope you're proud of your mom. Kristen, can you tell me how much of the kind of research that you're hopeful for for your family and for other families in the same situation, how much of that happens at NIH and how much of that is imperiled?

[Nicole Wallace]

Oh, my goodness.

[Eddie Glaude]

I mean, I am not, I'm not.

[Nicole Wallace]

The expert on this, but I do know that, you know, of all of the medications that were approved in the last decade, from like 2010 to 2019, I think it was close to 400 different medications brought into the public, into public usage. Only two of them were not funded by NIH funds. And so that really is where the medical advances are coming from. The most recent study that sort of had exciting stuff for folks with down syndrome, where they're looking for biomarkers of Alzheimer's in a population of people with down syndrome, was, I think, mutually funded by the NIH and then also by the National Institutes on Aging, which are part of the nih, as well as I think, the Eunice Kennedy Shriver program, children and youth. So it's all of that work is.

[Eddie Glaude]

Tied to the nih.

[Nicole Wallace]

And although the administration has said that.

[Eddie Glaude]

They don't want to touch Alzheimer's in.

[Nicole Wallace]

Public, the budget that Trump has put out, and this is not the big beautiful bill so called, this is the budget that will be going through an appropriations process this fall that our representatives will be voting on that they have a choice about this budget cut. Cuts funding for the NIH 40%. Cuts funding for the National Institutes on Aging, which deals with Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, by 40%. And already the cuts to employees at.

[Eddie Glaude]

The Centers for Alzheimer's Research.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think they've lost 10% of their employees, many of them experienced experts. They've lost the incoming director and with withholding or delays and the research is disrupted. And even a delay of a few weeks or a month can cause can set us back years. And we don't have years. We have until Sally's 30 or 40.

[Eddie Glaude]

To get our cure. I cannot tell you how impactful it is and how in awe I am of all of you for telling your story. Ron, I want to hear yours. Actually, to sneak in a quick break first. We'll be back with Ron on the other side.

[Nicole Wallace]

Nobody has made more progress on anything than what we've done with our vets. Now when we find somebody not treating our vets properly, you know what we say, right? You're out, get out.

[Eddie Glaude]

You're fired, get out. We're back with Ron, Kristen and Eddie. Ron, the cuts to the workforce, which includes a lot of veterans to Veterans affairs, which is as you said in your video, our promise are packed with our veterans, are one thing audacious and dangerous and damaging and unprecedented. But the double speak, which is what I talked about at the beginning, this projection onto others, what he's doing himself is extraordinary. Tell me your thoughts on everything happening right now to America's veterans friends.

[Nicole Wallace]

First off, Nicole, thank you for having me here. And if I could just take a quick second and send my condolences and prayers to the people of Texas, I, I took an oath back in 1969 to defend this country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I never in my lifetime thought that at the age of 75 years old that I would have to admit to the fact that the biggest threat to veterans right now is the commander in chief. The budgets that have been made to the VA are life threatening. Imagine a veteran calls the suicide hotline and nobody's there to answer. Understand that the reason why these guys are calling, because at some point in their lives, they have either seen or done things that no human being should ever see or do. And it lives with them each and every day of their life. A lot of veterans who went through Vietnam because of the exposure to Agent Orange as they became older came down with forms of cancer and nobody at first the country wanted to deny it. They didn't want to accept the claims of veterans who had earned the right to the medical care and the pensions. What is being done to the VA right now is unthinkable. Every time I go there, I look at veterans and you've got arms missing, legs missing, depression, anything else and everything else but the fact that you see in their face is the pride that they served in the United States army or the Marine Corps or whatever branch of military they were in. There's still that pride as old men and women. And what you were doing to veterans in this country is unthinkable because you lie. Let me just put it that way. You say how much you love veterans, but yet still, back in 2019, from a fund that you had raised for veterans, you had to be court ordered to pay $2 million. That's a lot. You say that the bombing in Iran was a success when really that was nothing more than a $7 million light show. Because to this day, you still don't have a credible bomb damage assessment. So every time the President flexes his muscles, he's not flexing his muscles. He's putting other soldiers like me, younger, of course, in harm's way. And it hurts.

[Eddie Glaude]

Why is it so difficult to get inside and really understand what's happening to veterans? Is it what you just described? Is it pride? And just say more about what this moment is like for veterans.

[Nicole Wallace]

This moment is like we have been betrayed. Because when you. The thing about taking that oath of enlistment, there is no expiration date on that oath. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm a soldier for life. And every time you see something like. Like soldiers being used in Los Angeles, that's not what we're here for. Or you say that you don't have enough money to. To. To. To. To feed starving children, but yet, and still, you can spend $45 million on a parade that it should never take a place. And then when it did take place, he wasn't happy because they weren't mean mugging enough. The United States military is a fighting force. We are not a parade force. All right? So we are much more important and trained individuals to march down Washington D Street. That was nothing more than an intimidation. Technically, that wasn't. To celebrate you.

[Eddie Glaude]

I want to bring my friend Eddie Glad into this conversation. Eddie, I wouldn't put anyone else in this position, but just take a minute and process this with us. The real impact of what Trump is doing to our friends and neighbors. Look to your right, look to your left. And there is someone adversely impacted by things that Trump is doing.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, Nicole, I think it's so important what the Home of the Brave website is doing, collecting individual stories so that we know what Trump is doing is not abstract. It's not just simply an ideological debate. These people are shredding the social contract. You know, I said earlier that, you know, government derives its just powers from the consent of the governed. You have been citing poll after poll about Americans that disagree with X policy, immigration with Y policy with regards to tariffs. We can go down the line, but they're doing it anyway. And here we have the tangible impacts of this all out assault on the government's responsibility to us, right to us. And so I'm sitting here just trying to think about how do we go from what has happened to me to what has happened to us to what is happening to the country at large, because that's the only way the country is going to be saved, it seems to me, Nicole. But this is a great beginning.

[Eddie Glaude]

Ron and Kirsten, I'm going to ask more of you. I'm going to ask you to be part of our conversations, part of our virtual table. And please keep coming back and talking to us. I think people hearing from you will be more impactful than people hearing from me. So thank you very much for being here and sharing your stories. To be continued, I hope. And Eddie, my wingman, my constant friend, thank you so much for spending this hour with us today. We're gonna sneak in one more break. We'll be right back. I am here standing. I get to speak to you because.

[Nicole Wallace]

Of all of that stuff, all of the, what do they call it, the.

[Eddie Glaude]

Scaffolding that government offered. And it was good.

[Nicole Wallace]

And everybody I knew who got it.

[Eddie Glaude]

Was true and good. We weren't con artists. We weren't fraudsters. We just wanted to get as much out of our lives as we could so that we could have more to offer. Sarah Jessica Parker is my guest. We have that conversation on this week's brand new episode of the Best People. We talked about everything from politics to parenting and of course, what it's like to play Carrie Bradshaw in the new season of and just like that, you can listen to the entire conversation by scanning the QR code on your screen right now. It's available wherever you get your podcasts. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful. And a special thank you to my dear friend Alicia Menendez for hosting this show last week.