“Americans are not on board”

Summary

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Deadline: White House – “Americans are not on board” (August 21, 2025)

Host: Alicia Menendez (filling in for Nicolle Wallace)
Guests: Andrea Flores (Forward.us), Cornell Belcher (Brilliant Corners Research), Jacob Soboroff (MSNBC), Dominic Patton (Deadline.com), Christy Greenberg (MSNBC Legal Analyst), Lisa Rubin (MSNBC Legal Correspondent)

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Overview

This episode closely examines the Trump administration's escalated immigration enforcement, particularly its mass deportation agenda, and the widespread backlash it is igniting across the U.S.—from everyday Americans and local officials to legal experts and pop culture. The conversation further explores the administration’s use of force in cities like Washington, D.C., the human and societal costs of aggressive ICE tactics, shifting public sentiment, and the deepening tension between federal actions and local governance. The hour additionally spotlights Republican efforts to shape the Jeffrey Epstein scandal investigation and traces how pop culture is forcefully responding to political authoritarianism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Public Outcry over Mass Deportations (01:26–04:13)

• Alicia Menendez opens with reports of aggressive ICE actions, including arrests at schools and the recent escalation at the Columbia Heights Metro station in D.C. and elsewhere. Public backlash is intensifying as these actions are more visible and impact broad communities, not just individuals.
• New York Times reporting shows deportation numbers at historic highs, predominantly targeting those without prior criminal convictions.

2. Broken Promises and a Misread Mandate (04:13–08:07)

• Jacob Soboroff directly challenges the administration’s stated focus:

  “They continue to talk about that they're going after the worst of the worst… that actually is never what they promised. They promised the largest mass deportation campaign in the history of the United States.” (04:13)

• Andrea Flores criticizes how leaders misunderstood the public’s stance after the 2024 election:

  “There is this argument that immigration writ large was unpopular…A lot of public leaders really drop the ball, because this is what they mean. It means you need to go into every community, you need to go into schools, you need to go into health care facilities, you need to go in places of worship.” (06:44)

3. Polling & Political Backfire (07:39–09:53)

• Cornell Belcher discusses polling that suggests Trump’s harsh immigration policies are backfiring:

  “Trump and Republicans overall have had huge advantages on immigration...We've seen in polling where Trump's attacks on immigration has actually made more Americans positive about immigration and immigrants than we've seen in quite some time...It seems to be backfiring at a broader level.” (08:07)

• Belcher reports little remorse among Trump’s core supporters, who see mass deportations as the fulfillment of campaign promises.

4. Local Leaders Rebelling; Federal-State Tensions (09:53–13:41)

• Jacob Soboroff outlines resistance from bipartisan local officials, notably NYC Mayor Eric Adams, against ICE raids in municipal spaces (10:12).
• Andrea Flores points out the risk to local control:

  “Local policing and control of your community and holding your own law enforcement accountable is a critical American value. And when you have more untrained federal immigration officers on your streets, they make mistakes, they arrest U.S. citizens…not to just go after immigrants, but to spread fear amongst American citizens and residents of cities.” (12:07)

5. Economic Fallout & Political Calculus (13:41–16:02)

• Flores predicts severe local impacts if mass deportations persist—hospital, school, and labor shortages—and asks which Republican leaders will be first to break with Trump as economic reality bites (14:18).
• Belcher presses the moral question:

  “At what price racism? Is there a price too high, where Americans will say, this is too high a price for racism?...These mass deportations aren't about criminals and gang members…They're deporting working people who happen to be brown.” (16:02)

6. Individual Stories: Humanizing the Cost (17:02–19:41)

• Alicia Menendez highlights the detention of 18-year-old Marcelo Guerrero Cruz, amplifying reports of events that evoke public outrage and uncomfortably mirror bounty systems:
• Soboroff:

  “It's a supersized version of the family separation policy...It's a profound miscalculation because...the most significant...policy reversal of the first Trump administration was the reversal of the family separation policy because it resulted when stories like that came out...” (17:50)

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The Federal Takeover of Washington, D.C. (22:17–26:37)

• Alicia Menendez notes overwhelming local opposition to Trump’s “takeover” of D.C., with 79% opposing federal control.
• Andrea Flores, a D.C. resident, describes the real-life trauma:

  “It’s been shocking…to see a woman in my neighborhood being Chained, not handcuffed, but…wrapped with chains...I can't imagine people who don't even know what all of these different agencies do, seeing their unmarked cars, seeing their different uniforms.” (23:31)

• Jacob Soboroff highlights the resentment among troops:

  “The looks on their faces as Stephen Miller was going on...about protecting families…the architect of the family separation policy...as men and women...are made to stand behind him as political props. They don't want to be there either.” (25:06)

• Belcher rebukes the political theater:

  “There’s absolutely nothing happening in front of Union Station. It is all performative…and it is so disrespectful to them [the troops].” (27:39)

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Epstein Files: Transparency Issues & Political Motives (32:16–39:48)

• The Justice Department prepares to deliver documents on Jeffrey Epstein to Congress; panelists forecast a “slow roll” and selective, staged releases.
• Christy Greenberg:

  “They will produce documents that are already public...Anything damaging to Trump...they will stonewall.” (33:11)

• Lisa Rubin stresses that the real accountability should focus on Alex Acosta's role in Epstein’s plea deal:

  “One way...it was completely abnormal is he refused to even talk to the line prosecutor who had built the case about the strength of the evidence. That is insane.” (38:06)

• The general consensus: The process is designed more to shield Trump and distract the public than to achieve genuine oversight or transparency.

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Pop Culture Strikes Back: South Park & Jack White (40:14–46:15)

• South Park is highlighted as leading the pop culture critique of Trump’s policies with immediacy and sharp humor.
• Dominic Patton:

  “South Park has become the number one most effective opponent against the President and his ways…for one reason perhaps more than others, it’s timeliness.” (42:08)

• The business context is not ignored—South Park’s parent company Paramount paid a multi-million dollar settlement to the Trump administration just prior to a major FCC merger approval.
• Jack White (via Instagram):

  “Trump is masquerading as a Christian, as a leader, as a person with actual empathy. The only way you can support this con man is because you are a victim of the two party system and you defend your guy no matter what he does. No intelligent person can defend this low life fascist.” (42:20)

• Belcher contextualizes the power of artists:

  “If we’re going to build a movement against this sort of authoritarianism, it has to be through our artists.” (45:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jacob Soboroff (04:13):
  “What they literally were promising was ripping apart the country, deporting millions of people, literally the fabric of the United States of America.”
• Andrea Flores (06:44):
  “This is what they mean. It means you need to go into every community, you need to go into schools, you need to go into health care facilities, you need to go in places of worship. That is what mass deportations have always meant.”
• Cornell Belcher (16:02):
  “At what price racism? Is there a price too high, where Americans will say, this is too high a price for racism?”
• Andrea Flores (23:31):
  “To see a woman in my neighborhood being Chained, not handcuffed, but...wrapped with chains...has really disturbed me.”
• Jack White (quoted by Alicia Menendez, 42:20):
  “Trump is masquerading as a Christian, as a leader, as a person with actual empathy.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• ICE Arrests and Public Outcry: 01:26–06:44
• Polling, Backlash and Base Politics: 07:39–09:53
• Local Leaders Speak Out: 09:53–13:41
• Economic Consequences of Deportation: 13:41–17:02
• D.C. Federal Takeover Discussion Begins: 22:17
• Personal Experiences in D.C.: 23:31–26:37
• Epstein Files Discussion: 32:16–39:48
• Pop Culture Response (South Park/Jack White): 40:14–46:15

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Tone & Concluding Themes

The episode is urgent, personal, and sharply critical of the administration’s actions, with a focus on the tangible impact on communities, the moral and economic calculus for the nation, and the growing pushback from both public officials and pop culture. The message is clear: Americans are not on board with mass deportations and the politicization of immigration enforcement, and a broad, multi-channel movement is emerging to challenge these policies and their consequences.

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Transcript

[Scott Aukerman]

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[Cornell Belcher]

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[Alicia Menendez]

Hi again everyone. It is five o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. An incredible scene in the nation's capital this week when a crowd of res drove away about a dozen ICE agents who were stationed at the Columbia Heights Metro station. It is just one of the many scenes that show that Americans are not on board with Donald Trump's immigration crackdowns, which oftentimes are turning violent. That violence on display this morning in that same D.C. neighborhood when ICE agents surrounded a car, shattered the windows to arrest the two men inside.

[Jacob Soboroff]

ICE home. What the.

[Dominic Patton]

Ice, go home.

[Alicia Menendez]

Ice, go home. Ice, go home.

[Dominic Patton]

Ice, go home. Ice, go home. Ice, go home. Ice, go home.

[Alicia Menendez]

Ice, go home.

[Dominic Patton]

Ice, go home. Ice, go home. Ice, go home. Ice, go home. What are you guys doing?

[Alicia Menendez]

These arrests, they are part of a show of force and they are happening everywhere, even outside of school. Schools. Yesterday in Encinitas, California, a father was detained after dropping his kid off in the morning at Parkdale Elementary School. The superintendent alerting the school community that, quote, this incident was witnessed by family, community members, staff and students causing fear and trauma across our district. The fear instilled across the country, it shows no signs of slowing down with brand new reporting in the New York Times showing the deportation numbers are reaching new highs because of this surge in arrests. The New York Times adds in that reporting, quote, with an infusion of cash from Mr. Trump's domestic policy bill signed in July, ICE appears poised to scale its operations even further. Faced with backlash over these aggressive arrests, what you just saw in D.C. the Trump administration continues to double down, claiming that they are going after the worst of the worst. But according to the New York Times, quote, almost all of the increase in arrests has been a people without any prior criminal convictions. And that is where we start this hour with Vice President for Immigration Policy and Campaigns at Forward us. Andrea Flores is here. Plus pollster and president of Brilliant Corners Research, MSNBC political analyst Cornell Belcher. And with me at the table, senior national and political correspondent for msnbc, Jacob Sobroff. Jacob, I feel like we need a reset. What was the promise from the Trump administration and what is it that we are actually watching?

[Jacob Soboroff]

I find it so nuts, frankly, that they continue to talk about that they're going after the worst of the worst. I just saw another post about it on, I think DHS's social media today because that actually is never what they promised. They promised the largest mass deportation campaign in the history of the United States of America. I appeared on this broadcast and others across this network from the floor of the Republican Convention as thousands and thousands of people held up those signs and said mass deportation. Now, it was extraordinary to be there and see that in such a celebratory party like atmosphere when what they literally were promising was ripping apart the country, deporting millions of people, literally the fabric of the United States of America. And when you watch those videos and you see what is playing out from quite literally coast to coast, from Home Depot parking lots today to streets like you're looking at in Washington, D.C. to the courthouse, 26 federal plots I just reposted. I've been trying to do this as much as I can. A video I saw from this morning at 26 Federal Plaza that was yet another family separation. And again, I always want to qualify. We don't know the specifics of these stories when they happen until we're able to vet each and every one of them. But the New York Times published that data today that the vast majority of the increase in the deportations modeled after the 1954 Dwight D. Eisenhower program with that racist name that deported a million Mexicans and some Mexican Americans. So Americans as well were deported. Model for the program. They're ripping families apart. It's not family separation at the border, it's family separation in the interior. And it's playing out every single day all across the country. This is what they promised. This is what they're doing. But what I don't think they anticipated is that it's not, you know, these are not just activists that are standing out there with phones everyday. Americans are seeing this happen every single day, and they're outraged by it. And I think that will only continue to grow.

[Alicia Menendez]

Okay, how do they not anticipate that, Andrea Flores? Because you and I both recall during Trump's separation, family separation, 1.0, it was suburban. Even moms, some of them avowedly apolitical, who said, I cannot believe this is happening in my country. In that child, I see my own child. Moms don't want to see ICE agents showing up at schools, at churches. There used to be sensitive areas where they were not allowed. The fact that they now feel emboldened, feel as though they can show up in places where they're not just traumatizing the person, they are taken into custody and their loved ones, they are traumatizing entire communities.

[Andrea Flores]

I think a lot of people, public leaders especially, misread the 2024 election. And there is this argument that immigration writ large was unpopular. And so you saw a lot of analysts say, well, people want mass deportations. The majority of people want mass deportations. But I think a lot of public leaders really drop the ball, because this is what they mean. It means you need to go into every community, you need to go into schools, you need to go into health care facilities, you need to go in places of worship. That is what mass deportations have always meant. But when people said, well, President Biden lost the election in part due to the border and immigration, you are missing a huge piece of what immigration means. The United States, which is all of these essential community members going about their lives and being violently arrested on the job, at school, at church. It's really disturbing. And it's important now that leaders step up and explain what's happening.

[Alicia Menendez]

I think it is so telling Cornell that they feel so emboldened that they know they need to operate so quickly. And the fact that Americans are seeing these images, seeing these videos, and they're paying attention. There was new polling this week. It shows just 43% of Americans approve of Trump's immigration policies. I wonder in your own focus groups, in your own polling, if you can identify the nuance of what it is that folks are seeing that is not sitting the right way with them.

[Cornell Belcher]

Well, look, I think these numbers are a big deal because let's level set for our viewers here. You know, Trump and Republicans overall have had huge advantages on immigration. It has been a winning issue for them. And I've seen polling numbers where now it's even more underwater. His job on immigration is even more underwater than that. And we've seen in polling where Trump's attacks on immigration has actually made more Americans positive about immigration and immigrants than we've seen in quite some time. So it seems to be backfiring at a broader level. But I will tell you, I was behind folks group glass 2 days ago with some Trump supporters from the last election. And I would like to say that they have remorse, but they don't. Right? They, they have no problem with what he's doing around immigration, around tariffs, around any of this stuff. And to a certain extent, they think he's keeping his promises. You know, he made these promises about mass deportation. He made these promises about tariffs. And, and they believe he's keeping. They believe he's keeping his promises. Now, the question is, and I do think this is a base play, because Republicans are much better at feeding their base and keeping their base energized. And I think Democrats are. And this does not seem to be moving or turning off Trump's core base that much. But I do think, when you're looking at the midterms, I do think the moderate swath of middle Americans see these images, and I hope they're saying, this is not what we signed up for. This is not who we are.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, I mean, there's where the rubber hits the road, Jacob, with voters, and then there's where it hits the road with the actual municipal leaders, counting leaders who have to implement these policies. You have New York City Mayor Eric Adams this week asking the Trump administration to stop these arrests in the New York immigration courts, which you've been reporting from.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So Eric Adams is this weird, strange bedfellow of President Trump because of his own legal problems, but even he cannot afford to avoid any longer the family separations that are happening on a daily basis here in Lower Manhattan. The images, you know, if you and I would recommend we should go together. I mean, Nicole, I know, wants to go as well. Everyone should go down there, just like we did for the Trump trial, to see what it looks like as these families are being ripped apart from one another, as masked agents are standing in the hallways, literally taking people out. They're trying to do the right thing by showing up to their immigration hearings. Many of them have ongoing asylum cases. Many of them are being told to come back by a judge for future hearings, whether it's in a month or two months or a year or two years. And these agents are ripping them out of the hallways and putting them into a secretive room. On one of the floors in the detention centers and then being immediately deported. Karen Bass said something the mayor of Los Angeles as those raids started in LA at the beginning of the summer. This is a petri dish. I'm paraphrasing, but this is basically coming to a city near you. And Eric Adams has made the choice now to speak out against the Trump administration. What they're doing here in the courthouses in lower Manhattan, I promise you, it's not just going to be in Miami and in Los Angeles and in Washington, D.C. with $175 billion or whatever the number is that they got at ICE, this is coming to communities all across America with Democratic and Republican mayors. And just like there's no Democratic and Republican way to take out the trash, as LaGuardia famously said about on in New York, there is not a particular Democratic or Republican way to deal with your own citizens, even if they're undocumented, being ripped out of your communities and destroying the way of life all across the United States of America. Everyone is going to be faced with this on all levels of government.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, and to pick up on that thread, Andrea, you have Pam Bondi sending letters to state leaders, to city leaders, questioning their sanctuary city policies, setting, laying the legal groundwork for them to begin going into those cities.

[Andrea Flores]

The legal groundwork is actually very easy to set right, because the Department of Homeland Security just got a blank check from Congress, first of all, for $170 billion to expand everything you just saw in those earlier videos. And legally, the federal government has been pressuring more and more communities to cooperate with ice. But Americans have to remember, including Trump voters, local policing and control of your community and holding your own law enforcement accountable is a critical American value. And when you have more untrained federal immigration officers on your streets, they make mistakes, they arrest US Citizens. They do that in a normal administration, much less one that its entire goal is to get numbers up. So I just want to mostly commend Boston Mayor Wu, Michelle Wu, who just did an incredible job of factually pushing back where we've seen other mayors say, okay, we'll up the immigration enforcement, we'll disrupt the community, anything, because there's a lot of fear right now. And they're using immigration enforcement not to just go after immigrants, but to spread fear amongst American citizens and residents of cities. And, you know, we need more mayors to say, absolutely not. This is a state issue, this is a local issue. And the immigrants in our communities, we will actually stand up for them because we absolutely need them and we're not seeing enough defense in that strong way. And I'm very scared about the implications because these numbers that came out from the New York Times are the beginning. And there will not be an American who does not know somebody who's impacted based simply on the number of immigrants in this country.

[Alicia Menendez]

If that is the beginning, what do you think is the end? What do you think it actually requires, Andrea? Does it require a midterms where voters come out and say that they don't support these policies? Is there an effort from Congress that you think could actually be effective here? I mean, if this starts, it's already happening. If members of Congress in red districts start understanding that their economy cannot operate, major industries, ag construction cannot operate, they start getting those calls. They're already getting those calls. You know that. Does it actually embolden any of them to stand up to Donald Trump, to Speaker Mike Johnson and saying enough is enough here, we gotta do something.

[Andrea Flores]

I mean, we will start to see hospitals closing, we'll see schools closing, we'll see communities starting in some ways to shut down because that is what happens when immigrants leave populations because the United States does not have enough people right now. And in certain states, I would think of Nebraska, my question is, which brave Republican is going to say our state actually will not survive if we keep showing this complete loyalty to President Trump's mass deportation agenda? It is an anti prosperous agenda. It is an anti growth agenda. And I don't know who will break first. Right now they seem to be running in the opposite direction by pledging National Guard troops to go to D.C. but voters will not stand when there is no place to send their child to daycare. They will not stand with teachers disappearing and with nurses disappearing. We will all start to feel it more quickly, more urgently. And it is my hope that we see some Republican leaders soon break because honestly, their public leadership and their elected offices will start to depend on it.

[Alicia Menendez]

Cornell, I hear you on the fact that members of Trump's base are pumped. They feel like this is what they voted for. They are happy to watch him deliver for everybody else. If all of a sudden they can't go to their local hospital, they can't go to even their local restaurant, they can't get their Uber eats because there's no one who wants to deliver the food because they're worried about being pulled off a moped in the middle of the street, I mean, then do folks start feeling like this is not what they voted for? Right. Those voters who might be low propensity voters swing vot Dems who voted for Democrats in the past but voted for Trump this time around, do they come back home?

[Cornell Belcher]

Look, this is a crossroad. It's a pivotal moment. Because what you're really asking is at what price racism? Is there a price too high, where Americans will say, this is too high a price for racism? This is too high a price for fear of replacement theory. Because this is what this is about, right? These mass deportations aren't about criminals and gang members because they're not. They're deporting working people who happen to be brown. And we know the architects of this are steeped in white nationalism and it's the fear of replacement theory. So let's call a thing what it is. And I hope that in middle America they'll go, this is too high a price. And this doesn't make any sense, but there's a awful lot of American history that tells me not to be so doggone optimistic about that.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, just to put a face on that price, Jacob, there is an 18 year old, his name is Marcelo Guerrero Cruz. He was out walking his dog when he got detained by ICE agents. You've heard a lot of these stories, but an 18 year old getting snatched off the street registers high among them. You had a rally outside of the LA school district where a teacher revealed that when she went to visit him in Adelanto, he told this to her, quote, he overheard the masked men who seized him brag among themselves that they would receive $1,500. I wonder if you have any reporting that matches that claim. But just more broadly, the incentive structure to ramp up these numbers relative to the human cost.

[Jacob Soboroff]

You know, I can't personally confirm that. Certainly worries that I've heard on the streets from people that there's, you know, bounty hunters out there. What we know is that the existing immigration infrastructure that's based on deterrence and punishment and literally trying to make people suffer in order to stop other people from coming to the country, or in this case now, self deport has been turned, turned up to overdrive. It's a supersized version of the family separation policy. And so what they want actually is stories like that out there every day. But I think that it's a profound miscalculation because as we've talked about before, the most significant, perhaps the only massive policy reversal of the first Trump administration was the reversal of the family separation policy because it resulted when stories like that came out. Not hundreds of thousands, but millions of people around the world. Pope speaking out, not in a bipartisan, but in a universal way saying we will not stand for this. Famously, the ProPublica audio that Ginger Thompson put out of those children crying and the Border Patrol agents saying, oh, we've got an orchestra here with these young kids crying, if indeed audio were to come out saying, you know, $1,500 a pop to go chase after and take down members of our community, I promise you, people around the country are not going to stand for that. And I think that Andrea's right. It's just a matter of time. Local leaders all across the country come out and speak out because this is going to affect every single person in the United States of America. Millions of not only millions of undocumented people are here in the country, but many millions more live with an undocumented person who is in their home. And all of those people are classmates or colleagues or friends or neighbors, what have you. And I'm telling you, it's just a matter of time before the tide starts to turn on this.

[Alicia Menendez]

It is amazing to me that Republicans, Republicans have sold this fake idea that immigrants are changing the fabric of this country, when in fact, it is Republicans who are trying to do exactly that. No one is going anywhere. When we return, Donald Trump's takeover of Washington, D.C. increasingly resembles a large scale ICE raid. And just like the rest of Trump's agenda, it is deeply unpopular and it is hurting the local economy. We're going to take a closer look at what is happening in our nation's capital. That's next. Plus, the Trump administration so far has struck out on its attempts to put the Jeffrey Epstein scandal behind them. So tomorrow they're going to try again with the help of House Republicans. Why their plans may backfire in a big way all over again. And leave it to pop culture to forcefully take on Donald Trump. A devastating new parody from south park and a potent attack from rock and roll hall of Famer Jack White later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And have you been listening to my podcast? We are knee deep in season three, and if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations? Jamie Foxx nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Ripa now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Alicia Menendez]

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[Alicia Menendez]

As we were just discussing the number and intensity of ice, arrests by this administration have shot up all across this country. One city feeling that particularly acutely is our nation's capital. Attorney General Pam Bondi announcing today that 24 arrests were made by ICE agents just yesterday. Donald Trump today digging in even further into his federal takeover of the city, announcing he will be, quote, going out tonight with the police and the military doubling down on a move that is deeply unpopular. According to New Washington Post's polling, 79% of D.C. residents strongly or somewhat oppose Trump's takeover the city, and 65% don't think his actions will make the city safer from violent crime. We are back with Andrea Cornell and Jacob. Andrea, it has been fascinating as this has played out in Washington, D.C. to watch the content that you have been capturing because you are of course, an advocate for a fair and humane immigration system. But you're also a resident of Washington, D.C. and so this thing that you and I have been talking about for months has now landed in your backyard. And I wonder what you are watching, what you seeing and what you think those of us who are not there are missing.

[Andrea Flores]

Honestly, it's been shocking, even as someone who knows the Department of Homeland Security well, who's very familiar with federal law enforcement, to walk outside of my building and to see a woman in my neighborhood being Chained, not handcuffed, but, you know, wrapped with chains in my neighborhood has really disturbed me. And I can't imagine, you know, people who don't even know what all of these different agencies do, seeing their unmarked cars, seeing their different uniforms. And I've seen people go about their lives. I was eating dinner on Capitol Hill. I saw a car pulled over, and suddenly there were four other unmarked cars. And they handcuff this man, and they hold him there, and it's humiliating. And I watch them filming. All of these things are legally questionable. And they let him go, right, because D.C. residents were yelling at these officers. And I go and I talk to the man and I say, what did they even tell you? And he told me that they arrested him just because they could, or they wanted to handcuff him just because they could. So to me, I feel this is personal to every D.C. resident. This is exactly the worst nightmare of anyone who's ever worked the Department of Homeland Security, who feared it could become a President's personal police force. That is happening, and I just hope Americans understand it is not just going to stop at D.C. we should not have the President be taking over any of our communities. Police departments, public safety, they are not trained. The President is not trained to do it. It is an outrage.

[Jacob Soboroff]

The thing I think it's important for people to remember is how disrespectful and disrespected so many of the people who are in the troops here in the United States, not whether it's the National Guard or the Marines that were deployed to LA feel by this. On this very broadcast, we talked to Ross, who was a former Marine who was out there protesting the Marines on the day of the no Kings Day protest. We've talked to the Barranco family as well. Alejandro Barranco and his two brothers who are active duty Marines. Many of these folks are from these communities that they're being made to patrol and basically get in between their own neighbors and immigration enforcement for the sake of politics. I was watching yesterday some of the troops that were standing behind Stephen Miller and J.D. vanessa in the shake shack at Union Station. Do you think that they wanted to be there? The looks on their faces as Stephen Miller was going on and on and on about protecting families. The architect of the family separation policy that ripped 5,500 kids from their parents deliberately to harm them, Talking about protecting families on the streets of Washington, D.C. as men and women who sign up to wear the uniform of our country are made to stand behind him as political props. They don't want to be there either. I'm sure some of them do. But I can tell you from talking to them, even sources within the National Guard who haven't spoken out publicly, who have reached out to me, they're furious about having these assignments and being deployed in this way. And just as it's only a matter of time before local leaders and people speak out, you're going to have troops speaking out in the same way as well.

[Alicia Menendez]

So, Cornell, you've seen, we've all seen the footage of the vice president walking through Union Station being just so brave. We know that the president of the United States were waiting for him to take his own to. I'm personally not going to be showing the video of the president walking with the National Guard because I think that is imagery that is being made in the name of propaganda and nothing more. If he actually has some type of confrontation or speaks with folks, then perhaps we will bring people that sound. I worry, Cornell, that given that this is all predicated on a false premise, that they can likewise claim a false victor and they can just say, we did it, we succeeded, and take a victory lap without actually ever being called out on the fact that they were looking for a problem that did not exist the way that they were articulating it, or to the degree they were articulating it as an emergency.

[Cornell Belcher]

You know, I'm going to connect back on that on the back end, but on the front end, I want to to underline what Monte College is talking about. There is this ideal of how disrespectful this is to troops, and those pictures and images of those troops, those soldiers in front of Union Station. Now, a lot of your viewers probably never been to Union Station. But for those of us who are familiar with the Capitol, outside Union Station, inside Union Station, not necessarily a hotbed of crime, right? Not necessarily a place where you need tanks and armored vehicles and that sort of police presence. There's absolutely nothing happening in front of Union Station. It is all performative. And I do feel sorry for these, for our troops, our soldiers who are being brought into no fault of their own, this political theater. And I've heard and seen so many, and I'm a DC Resident also, so many DC Residents yelling and screaming at them. And to a certain extent, it's like, but it's not their fault, guys. They are just props in Trump's political theater. And it is so disrespectful to them. Now, to the earlier point, right? It is American Politics 101, right? What's the best way to distract. Oh, the economy's going bad. Epstein files. Terrorists aren't working. I can't get my Nobel Peace Prize. What's always the best bogeyman here? The best boogeyman is law and order and crime and violence and brown people. And that old trope, that old ploy they hope still plays. Now again, I hope my friends and colleagues have been talking. I hope Americans will turn and say this is too high a price to pay. I hope they do. But this has worked for them time and time and time again. That's why they keep going to this play. There's nothing that'll distract quicker than the need or desire to get crime, and particularly those brown people committing all this crime, under control. And that's what this theater is about.

[Alicia Menendez]

Indeed it is. Andrea Flores, thank you as always, for being with us. Jacob Sovereign. We're going to see you tonight on the 11th hour. Sitting in for Stephanie.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I'm gonna take a nap.

[Alicia Menendez]

Please do, Cornell. You are sticking with me. When we return, Tomorrow is the day the Justice Department says it will begin handing over documents about the Jeffrey Epstein case to Congress. But what they share and what gets released to the public, well, that is anyone's guess. That's story after quick break.

[Scott Aukerman]

This is Comedy Bang Bang, the podcast, the promo. And in 30 seconds, I'm gonna tell you why. You should check out the show. I, the host, Scott Aukerman, have a lighthearted conversation with famous celebrities like like Jon Hamm, Allison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Lyonne, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few things go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians, as well as some new hilarious voices. Comedy Bang Bang, the Podcast. Listen every Monday wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Cornell Belcher]

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[Alicia Menendez]

Do you have an update on timing for tomorrow?

[Andrea Flores]

When you expect to start getting documents.

[Alicia Menendez]

From the DOJ on Epstein and when you.

[Jacob Soboroff]

No, we just expect to get them tomorrow.

[Alicia Menendez]

And when do you think you might release them publicly? Do you know at all?

[Cornell Belcher]

Well, we're going to review and we'll work as quickly as we can.

[Lisa Rubin]

Is there any indication of tomorrow's deadline.

[Alicia Menendez]

Being pushed at all?

[Cornell Belcher]

Do what?

[Alicia Menendez]

Is there any indication of tomorrow's deadline being pushed?

[Jacob Soboroff]

No, we expect to get them tomorrow.

[Alicia Menendez]

Mind you, because it was already pushed. Well, that is where it still stands today, with the House Oversight Committee expecting the Justice Department to begin handing over documents tomorrow from its investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. Democrats, they are calling it a staged rollout by Donald Trump's doj, all in an effort to avoid full transparency. And there are so many questions, especially after the Justice Department already missed one deadline following the bipartisan subpoena from the committee. As for what happens after tomorrow, the committee says it plans to release the files to the public, but anything short of a full release of the Epstein files will only cause more political turmoil for the Trump White House and for Republicans in Congress. Joining our conversation, former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst and host of the YouTube show Courtside, Christy Greenberg, plus MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin. All right, Christy, manage my expectations here. What do you think we actually get tomorrow?

[Lisa Rubin]

So first, I think you're going to get a slow roll. Essentially, they will produce documents that are already public about Epstein and about Maxwell. It's exactly what they tried to do with the release of the GR jury transcripts that contained information in the Maxwell case that was already public and information that was hearsay in the Epstein case. I think that when we saw that stunt from Pam Bondi, where she had binders saying it's the most transparent administration in history, and then it's filled with documents that are already public, I think we're going to see that here as well. And I also think that to the extent they do produce anything new, it's going to be information that's damaging to Trump's political enemies. Right. They're going to try and flip the script here. I do not anticipate we are going to get any of the mentions about Donald Trump from the Epstein file in this rollout they will stonewall, they will claim every possible privilege. And I just don't see Comer taking this DOJ to court. Instead, he's going to point to all the documents that they produce, and he'd say, well, look, they produced so many documents, they've been cooperative, and it'll give him a way to save things face when it's really just meaningless. It's exactly what the judges in the Southern District of New York in the Maxwell and Epstein cases said has been a diversion. It's just we're pretending to be transparent, but not really being transparent. So I think really, as to the stuff that people are interested in, as to whether or not whatever is in that file about Trump, I just think we're going to see the same play that we've seen from the National Enquirer. They're going to catch and kill anything damaging about Trump that is in that Epstein file, and we are not going to see it. If they were going to produce it, it certainly wouldn't be in response to a congressional subpoena. It would have been a major DOJ event that they could own. I just don't see them, them going along with this and us getting anything really substantive here.

[Alicia Menendez]

Judge Berman calls it a distraction. I think we've all, you have helped us all understand that that's what this is. I'm not sure how you help. Help Republicans understand that we all see that it's a distraction.

[Christy Greenberg]

Well, first of all, if I thought the Republican Party was listening to me, perhaps I would talk to them more directly than I have on this note.

[Andrea Flores]

Fair enough, fair enough.

[Christy Greenberg]

But that being said, yes, we all do see. And Donald Trump has had a few weeks where Epstein has been far from everybody's minds. And again, tomorrow is going to put this back into full focus. But I want to just remind people that typically when Congress does investigations, we don't see materials that are produced during the course of the investigation until that investigation comes to a completion. Right. That's true of investigations that we trust as much as investigations that we think themselves are not necessarily going to lead anywhere. When I think about the January 6th investigation led by the House, for example, we didn't see transcripts from depositions, materials that were produced in discovery, until they released their report. And I'm not telling you right now on this program, I think there was anything nefarious about this. So to the extent that we want to manage expectations about tomorrow, my expectation is that the public sees zip zero of whatever it is that the Department of Justice hands over tomorrow and doesn't see it for some time. That being said, if and when we do see some of it, I would expect it already to have been redacted by the Department of Justice for privacy concerns for people against whom they think they could not even predicate an investigation, much less a prosecution. And they'll say that that's as true of many people.

[Alicia Menendez]

Right.

[Christy Greenberg]

It's not Trump specific. It's designed to protect any number of people that had an association with Jeffrey Epstein. If they do what Christie predicts and give us a whole bunch of information about Trump political enemies, their excuse to redact information about Trump or not put that in the public domain falls even more flat than it has already.

[Alicia Menendez]

Christy, I, I was interviewing one of the attorneys who represents some of the Epstein victims, and he, he was crystal clear about the fact that the person you really want to hear from here is Alex Acosta. I think you have both you and Lisa both have made that argument. Lisa has made the argument to me. There's DOJ report that has interviews with Acosta that should could actually be more illuminating about that sweetheart deal out of Florida. The sweetheart deal that Ghislaine Maxwell's attorneys are now using as the basis of, of her appeal to the Supreme Court. Why not have Democrats push for that, say, okay, you know what, the files, you're going to redact them, you're going to give us limited amount, give us that DOJ report that tells us what Alex Acosta said about what happened in those private conversations that might actually help us understand why Jeffrey Epstein got the sweetheart deal in the first place.

[Lisa Rubin]

Yeah. Look, Alex Acosta has a lot to answer for. The sweetheart deal was, by all accounts, it seems, completely improper, completely against any kind of norm. One way in which it was completely abnormal is he refused to even talk to the line prosecutor who had built the case about the strength of the evidence. That is insane. How could you agree to a plea deal without understanding the case? So, sure, I would want to hear from Alex Acosta. He deserves to be put on the hot seat. But before I get to him, I want to hear from that line prosecutor about what her case was like, how and how she was treated and why she was iced out. Her supervisors, other people that were involved. And then once we have a record, I would want to hear from Alex Acosta to have to answer for what he did, which, you know, again, seems to be plainly improper, plainly wrong. Now, he was absolved essentially of any guilt by the Office of Professional Responsibility within the Department of Justice. And that, to me, is a disgrace. The fact that they would come to that conclusion that he didn't really do anything wrong here, that maybe he had some bad judgment, but that he didn't break any professional rules and ethics, that just seems like an incorrect conclusion. But again, I would go to the source, go to the people that were spoken to before you even get to Acosta, go to all the other people that were involved in that case, the victims, the prosecutors, the agents, talk to them, build your case. And then you go after Acosta once you have your record. That that would be a normal way to do this. But I don't think these congressional Republicans have any interest in actually getting to the truth here. They are there to try and protect Trump at all costs.

[Alicia Menendez]

Christy Greenberg, Lisa Rubin, thank you both so much for joining us. And when we return, once again, it is pop culture leading the way, calling out Donald Trump for his extremes and excesses. The two newest examples from south park and musician Jack White. And we will have them for you after a short break. Oh, wow.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Huge station.

[Andrea Flores]

Wow.

[Alicia Menendez]

The Supreme Court. Wow. Washington Memorial. Oh, the Capitol. Just a bill visiting a highly militarized Washington, D.C. while South park has come out swinging against the president and this administration since it started its new season a month ago, last night's episode, it was no exception. Taking on the federal takeover of D.C. mocking the business and world leaders like Apple CEO Tim Cook who have come to Trump Trump bearing gifts. The show called out Trump's autocratic tendencies and made sure to include some personal jabs as well, which we're going to save for late night viewers. At the same time, also in the public arena, Jack White of the White Stripes called out Trump's anti democratic ways as well. What first began as White criticizing Trump's Oval Office decor updates, referring to them as vulgar, gold leafed, gaudy and professional wrestlers dressing room, then developed into a back and forth fourth with the White House. White responded yesterday with a scathing Instagram post elevating his attacks to more than just a core. From that post, Trump is masquerading as a Christian, as a leader, as a person with actual empathy. The only way you can support this con man is because you are a victim of the two party system and you defend your guy no matter what he does. No intelligent person can defend this low life fascist. Joining us now, executive editor of Deadline.com, dominic Patton. Cornell is also back with us. All right, Dominic, let's start off with what's south park is doing the show no stranger to going after politicians, but this persistence Feels different.

[Dominic Patton]

Well, first of all, I have to say your Schoolhouse Rock reference was quite well done.

[Alicia Menendez]

Thank you. Yes.

[Dominic Patton]

I mean, look, this is the third episode of the 27th season of South park, and it is the third episode to take President Trump to task for his, to quote Jack White, low level fascist approach to the. It has been scathing. In fact, in many ways, south park has become the number one most effective opponent against the President and his ways. And also for one reason, perhaps more than others, it's timeliness. We always knew that south park guys, Matt Stone and Trey Parker were very often got their episodes to Comedy Central sometimes just 36 hours before they went to air. They're right on the money here, right on the button. What you showed was pretty scathing. What you can't show and you referred to as late night and what we've seen in past nights, it's a little bit more penetrating, if you know what I mean.

[Alicia Menendez]

What a play on words. I want you to talk about this in the business contacts, Dominic, because the show's parent company is Paramount. And so there is sort of a political undercurrent here already beyond what is happening in the national zeitgeist or in the political discourse. The show's Paramount. It just recently paid a settlement of $16 million to the Trump administration. Four weeks later saw the FCC approve its $8 billion merger. I just don't know that you can talk about South Park, Dominic, without talking about Paramount.

[Dominic Patton]

Well, I think that's very right, but I think, in fact, you can talk about south park in spite of talking about Paramount. We also have to say that of course, Paramount, just before their deal was finalized by the fcc, who basically, as Elizabeth Warren and several other senators said was essentially bribery by any other name, was also pulled Stephen Colbert off the air. Now, they say it was because of money and late night and they had to give the people who work at that show time to get their lives organized, knowing their contracts wouldn't be renewed. But in life, in politics and in television, timing is everything, and the timing was atrocious. Stephen Colbert will be just fine. In fact, he will have a great tub to thump for the next several months against President Trump. Another fine critic here. But I think importantly to remember here is also what happened is the south park guys threatened to take their ball and go somewhere else. Yep, they were in a renegotiation with Paris Paramount. As David Ellison, the head of Skydance and the son of Larry Ellison, Oracle founder and Donald Trump pal, was trying to seal this deal, he could have lost One of the biggest franchises and one of the biggest tents in television. He gave them $1.5 billion to stick around. And I have to say. And ultimately, everything comes down to saying nothing loves you like cold, hard cash. He's gonna let them shoot their mouth off about Trump and anyone else as much as they can, because it's paying his bills. It's helping to get his profile raised. And to be honest, the ratings are phenomenal.

[Alicia Menendez]

The ratings are phenomenal. Cornell, that second episode, the one where they went after Kristi Noem, it was their highest rated episode since 2018. I know you look at what is breaking through with voters. Talk to me about the role that pop culture is going to play. I think you're muted, Cornell.

[Cornell Belcher]

Sorry. I think we're so. I think we're. We're in a. I think we're in a new, new space with, with this. Because, you know, we. Look, artists have always played a role in and change in this country, and in many ways, they, they, they've been the leaders of it. And I think I. Kudos to these artists who are stepping up and trying to meet the moment here and trying to change public opinion in a way where our 32nd commercial and our television shows here on MSNBC can't, because they're reaching a different sort of audience. They're reaching younger voters, and they're reaching voters who aren't necessarily tapped into our mainstream political media. And if we're going to build a movement against this sort of authoritarianism, it has to be through our artists.

[Alicia Menendez]

Dominic Patton, thank you so much for spending some time with us. Cornell Belcher, as always, thank you for being with us for the full hour. We're going to take a quick break. I'll be right back.

[Jacob Soboroff]

The right wants a left that's embittered.

[Alicia Menendez]

And divided and sour and with a bunch of barriers to entry and codes.

[Jacob Soboroff]

That you need to unlock and know and words if you use, you'll be yelled at. They want us like that. They do. They want us sour and cynical and dispirited. And so we have to be welcoming and entertaining and joyful. Like, we can't. We will not build a party that can win unless we are having parties people would want to attend.

[Alicia Menendez]

Yeah. And that is not like.

[Jacob Soboroff]

That is central.

[Alicia Menendez]

Central call to action for Democrats and progressives from Pod Save America's John Lovett. He is Nicole's guest on this week's episode of the Best People Podcast. You can watch the whole thing on YouTube, just scan the QR code on your screen or Download this week's episode with Pod Save America's John Lovett wherever you get your podcasts and take one more quick break. We'll be right back. Back. Thank you for spending part of your Thursday with us. We are so grateful.

[Scott Aukerman]

This is Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast, the promo, and in 30 seconds I'm going to tell you why you should check out the show. I, the host, Scott Aukerman, have a light hearted conversation with famous celebrities like Jon Hamm, Allison Williams, Phoebe Bridgers, Jason Alexander, Natasha Leone, Bob Odenkirk, just to name a few things. Go a little off the rails when different eccentric characters and oddballs drop by to be interviewed as well. Each week is a blend of conversations and character work from your favorite comedians, as well as some new hilarious voices. Comedy Bang Bang the Podcast Listen every Monday wherever you get your podcasts.