"America's Secretary of Defense is a global laughing stock"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode Title: "America's Secretary of Defense is a global laughing stock"
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: April 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Nicolle Wallace examines the global and domestic fallout from a stunning gaffe by Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, who quoted a fake Bible verse—actually from Pulp Fiction—during a Pentagon prayer service. The episode explores the layers of embarrassment, political ramifications, and broader implications for American credibility, both at home and abroad, under the Trump administration. Nicolle is joined by Anthea Butler (Religious Studies Dept. Chair at UPenn), Paul Rykoff (host of Independent Americans), Rev. Al Sharpton, and guest Michael McFaul (former ambassador to Russia).

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Main Topics and Key Insights

1. Pete Hegseth’s “Biblical” Blunder & Global Fallout

• Fake Scripture at the Pentagon:

  • Hegseth, at a prayer service, cited what he called scripture—but was actually the famous Samuel L. Jackson monologue from Pulp Fiction. Nicolle highlights how quickly both U.S. and global media caught on.
  • [00:59 | Pete Hegseth]: “Blessed is he who in the name of camaraderie and duty, shepherd the lost through the valley of darkness...”
  • [01:10 | Samuel L. Jackson]: “Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill, shepherds the weak...” (actual movie quote)
  • The Pentagon admitted Hegseth’s words were “custom prayer... obviously inspired by the dialogue in Pulp Fiction,” but even this defense was factually shaky.

• International and Domestic Mockery:

  • Widespread media ridicule: Late-night hosts like Stephen Colbert lampoon the incident.
    • [03:00 | Colbert]: “God, I’m talking to You. You talking to me? Are you talking to me? War is like a box of chocol... I am tired of these mother sins on my mother soul.”
  • European outlets draw a line from this gaffe to a pattern of “cultural illiteracy” in the Trump administration.
  • California Governor Gavin Newsom posts a “Pete Fiction” meme mocking Hegseth.

• Why It Matters:

  • Nicolle Wallace [05:10]: "You could argue that something like this would be a career killer in a normal administration... but in that normal parallel reality, placing sensitive classified information on a group chat... would have already gotten Hegseth fired a year ago."
  • Hegseth’s ongoing use of religious language to justify military actions raises serious concerns about the politicization and weaponization of faith.

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2. Panel Discussion: Faith, Politics, and American Hypocrisy

Rev. Al Sharpton & Anthea Butler on Hypocrisy

• [05:58 | Anthea Butler]: “It is next level... This churchgoing guy that doesn’t know the difference between Pulp Fiction and the Book of St. Matthew... I think it is incumbent upon the Christian right... to call them out.”
• Key Point: The Christian nationalist base is being challenged to respond to this open hypocrisy.

Pete Hegseth’s Conduct and Profile

• Nicolle [07:32]: Hegseth has a record of extreme and reckless behavior, including previous accusations and controversial statements, revealing a pattern of fakeness.
• Paul Rykoff [08:10]: “He’s always been what I call the acting Secretary of Culture War... Every day he speaks, he’s making us less safe, and he’s embarrassing us to the world.”

Weaponization and Ignorance of Religion

• Religious studies guest, [10:45]: “If you have a good pastor, you would know some scripture. He doesn’t know any. And that’s the problem. He is playing a part, and the part is is really bad.”
• Myth Making: Trump, Hegseth, and allies are constructing a religious myth to rationalize their actions: "God is on our side; we can do whatever we want."
  • Pope Leo XIV pushes back, invoking just war theory—a longstanding Catholic teaching.

Political Loyalty vs. Faithful Integrity

• [14:13 | Religious Studies Expert]: “There is a core that is loyal to Trump no matter what... I really think he's losing the people who voted for him, who were religiously oriented... they haven't done the things they promised.”
• "This is our internal cultural war..." America's religious battles are out of step with global faith discourse, fueling both embarrassment and misunderstanding abroad.

Even Megyn Kelly Distances Herself

• [15:51 | Megyn Kelly]: “I am not a fan of the praying and the constant references to God... while he’s announcing war plans. It makes me very uncomfortable.”

• This symbolizes conservative voices beginning to criticize the administration’s overt and performative religiosity.

• Anthea Butler [17:36]: “Where are the Christian leaders? ... They seemingly are more loyal and committed to the administration than they are to the God they claim."

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3. America’s Image Abroad and Strategic Risks

Media Coverage and Diplomatic Reputation

• Nicolle [21:34]: “He is what he’s criticizing. He’s the one so blinded by hardened hatred of the truth.”
• Paul Rykoff [22:59]: “This is a tired old strategy of attacking people’s patriotism, saying anyone who covers the war is undermining the troops.”
• The debacle undermines both military unity and trust among international partners, especially in conflict regions where religious overtones are destabilizing.

The “Enemy Within” and Call for Accountability

• Paul Rykoff [24:19]: “Every day he speaks, he’s making us less safe.”
• Impeaching Hegseth: There’s growing bipartisan frustration and a push for consequences (“the focus on impeaching Hegseth has legs”).

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4. Religious Illiteracy & Weaponized Faith

• [26:03 | Religious Studies Expert]: “Americans talk so much about religion but know so little about it. Our populace does not know much, and our leaders know even less.”
• “Cult” Dynamics: Elevating Trump with near-messianic symbolism—Paula White likening him to Jesus, an AI portrait as Christ—is a strategic move to position Trump and his allies as religious icons.

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5. America’s Toxic Brand: Domestic & International Blowback

MAGA Fatigue Takes Hold Worldwide

• Nicolle [31:17]: “Donald Trump is unpopular and he is politically toxic. The backlash to Donald Trump’s increasingly politically toxic MAGA brand has now gone global.”
• Right-wing leaders in Europe, like Marine Le Pen, and former Trump allies are now distancing themselves, seeing him as an embarrassment.

Democratic Resurgence in Hungary: A Domino Effect?

• Michael McFaul [33:22]: “Viktor Orban... the darling of the MAGA world... But it didn’t work. It backfired.”

• The Hungary election (a loss for Orban) is described as a breakthrough for democracy and a template for dislodging right-wing populists elsewhere.

• Key Lessons:

  • The focus on anti-corruption and the economy proved most effective, not democracy vs. dictatorship rhetoric (McFaul [34:46]).
  • Corruption is Trump’s biggest vulnerability, yet often overlooked in U.S. discussions.

Supervillain Framing and the Search for “Avengers”

• Paul Rykoff [37:22]: “He’s jumped the shark... We kind of need the Avengers... Trump is like Dr. Doom. He’s a bad guy and the world is now aligning against him."
• The panel predicts Americans and Western allies are ready for “fighters”—novel, charismatic leaders willing to confront corruption and extremism directly.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nicolle Wallace [00:24]: "America's Secretary of Defense is today a global laughingstock after quoting a fake Bible verse."
• Anthea Butler [05:58]: "He can quote with passion a Bible verse that is not a Bible verse, but is really Samuel L. Jackson playing a role."
• Paul Rykoff [08:10]: “He’s always been what I call the acting Secretary of Culture War.”
• Religious Studies Expert [10:45]: "Most of us in the religious studies world... are laughing at him this week along with the rest of the world, because we know that's not real scripture."
• Megyn Kelly [15:51]: "I am not a fan of the praying and the constant references to God, Jesus and the Bible from the Pentagon while he's announcing war plans. It makes me very uncomfortable."
• Nicolle Wallace [16:49]: “There's something rotten at the core of the Trump presidency.”
• Paul Rykoff [24:24]: “RFK Jr.... pulled over and removed the penis from a dead raccoon because he wanted to study it... This is absolutely ridiculous, damning, disqualifying...”
• Michael McFaul [33:22]: “It’s an international trend... Viktor Orban was the darling of the MAGA world... and it didn’t work. It was a backfire.”
• Paul Rykoff [37:22]: "Trump is like Dr. Doom. He’s a bad guy and the world is now aligning against him."
• Anthea Butler [40:22]: "He’s upended everything this country’s morally stood for. He’s a felon arguing with the Pope and he’s got his Secretary of War misquoting the Bible. What else do you need to say?"

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Timestamps: Key Segments

• [00:24] – Nicolle Wallace introduces the gaffe and global reaction
• [00:59–01:48] – Highlights of Hegseth quoting Pulp Fiction instead of the Bible
• [03:00] – Stephen Colbert's parody and media ridicule
• [05:58] – Anthea Butler on the hypocrisy of the administration's religious claims
• [08:10] – Paul Rykoff on Hegseth's relentless fakeness
• [10:45] – Religious Studies Expert breaks down the myth-making and misuse of faith
• [15:51] – Megyn Kelly distances herself from Hegseth and Pentagon religious rhetoric
• [21:34] – Nicolle on Hegseth’s attack on media and reality
• [22:59] – Paul Rykoff connects media attacks to past wars and calls for accountability
• [26:03] – Religious Studies Expert on religious illiteracy and dangerous elevation of Trump
• [31:17] – Nicolle marks the global shift against Trump and MAGA
• [33:22] – McFaul explains Hungary’s anti-Orban, anti-corruption wave
• [37:22] – Rykoff on the need for new political “superheroes” to confront Trumpism
• [40:22] – Anthea Butler on who might step up
• [41:12] – Paul Rykoff re-emphasizes that the public wants fighters, not traditional politicians

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Episode Tone & Style

The tone is sharp, sometimes scathing, but analytic and well-informed. Nicolle Wallace guides a conversation that’s both analytically rigorous and laced with biting humor, keeping discussions focused on the real-world consequences of performative faith in politics and the growing sense of national and international embarrassment.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for anyone trying to understand the intersection of cultural politics, religion, and global American leadership in the Trump era. With wit and a sense of urgency, Nicolle Wallace and her guests break down why a Pentagon prayer service prank has become a global symbol of American decline—and why both domestic audiences and foreign allies are recoiling. You’ll come away with a deep sense of the stakes, the strategy behind the spectacle, and the growing search for genuine political and moral leadership.

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Transcript

[Ms. Now Announcer]

Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki and more. Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. Happy Friday. It's four o'clock in New York. America's Secretary of Defense is today a global laughingstock after quoting a fake Bible verse. It did not take the press here and around the world very long to figure out that Pete Hegseth was not exactly quoting the Bible at a Pentagon prayer service. It wasn't the Gospel of Matthew or Mark or Luke or John. While Hegseth suggested that it was a twist on an actual Bible verse, what it really was, what it actually was, was a take from the Gospel of Quentin Tarantino.

[Pete Hegseth]

Blessed is he who in the name of camaraderie and duty, shepherd the lost through the valley of darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.

[Samuel L. Jackson (Pulp Fiction Quote)]

Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.

[Pete Hegseth]

I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to capture and destroy my brother.

[Samuel L. Jackson (Pulp Fiction Quote)]

I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.

[Pete Hegseth]

And you will know my call sign is Sandy1 when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

[Samuel L. Jackson (Pulp Fiction Quote)]

And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

[Nicole Wallace]

Amazing. Right now it's so bad that the Pentagon is admitting it today. The spokesperson for the Pentagon saying it was a quote, custom prayer, obviously inspired by the dialogue in Pulp Fiction. And that spokesperson insists that it was still a reflection of a real bible verse, Ezekiel 25:17. But even that last point isn't exactly right. That's the LA Times points out that quote, the infamous Ezekiel 25:17 speech from pulp Fiction is almost entirely a screenwriter's creation. Only the final refrain is loosely inspired by the actual biblical verse. End quote. Now, the global reaction to Pete Hegseth's remarks was swift. California's governor got in on it as well. Gavin Newsom posted this take on the famous Pulp Fiction movie poster with the words Pete Fiction. I just make up stuff because I'm War Secretary. No surprise late night talk show hosts had a field day. Here is Stephen Colbert.

[Stephen Colbert]

Despite all this, I want Hegseth to succeed. He's the Secretary of Defense. If he succeeds, that means America succeeds. So please join me in prayer. God, I'm talking to You. You talking to me? Are you talking to me? War is like a box of chocol. I am tired of these mother sins on my mother soul.

[Nicole Wallace]

But Hag says embarrassing debacle has already been seen all around the world. People around the world are laughing at him and us. Al Jazeera covered it. Pan European outlet Euronews covered it. They wrote this quote last year we suggested, proved that the Trump administration may be culturally illiterate. Now Pete Hegseth has added another stone to that dubious edifice. You could argue that something like this would be a career killer in a normal administration, in a normal presidency. But in that normal parallel reality, in a normal administration, placing sensitive classified information on a group chat with a reporter would have already gotten Hegseth fired a year ago. So what makes this frankly, deeply humiliating moment for Pete Hegseth all the more significant is that Pete Hegseth is using religion as a cudgel and he invokes the Bible all the time to justify the armed interventions that the Trump administration is engaged in all around the world. New York Times reported last month that, quote, more than any top American military leader in recent history, Hegseth has framed US military operations in the Mid East, Africa and Latin America as bigger than politics or foreign policy. Often he, Pete Hegseth has imbued these actions with a Christian moral underpinning that suggests they are divinely sanctioned. Or I guess if we're talking about Pete Hegseth, we mean sanctioned by jewels from pulp Fiction. What Pete Hegseth's quoting of a fake Bible verse says about Donald Trump and his administration and it's thirst for war is where we start today with Anthea Butler. She is the chair of the Religious Studies department at the University of Pennsylvania and the author of the book White Evangelical Racism. With me at the table for the hour, Paul Rykoff. He is the host of the Independent Americans podcast and the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. Also joining us, the host of Politics Nation, the president of the National Action Network, the Reverend Al Sharpton is here. Rev, I start with you. I didn't think that they could reveal themselves any more than they have over the last 10 days in this fight with the Pope. But this feels next level to me.

[Anthea Butler]

It is next level. And I think that the real challenge here is not for those of us that have continued to raise their contradictions all the way to their gaffes, is the real challenge is the Christian right or the Christian nationalists that have supported them to allow in one week this president to attack the Pope to Say things that was completely unsavory in terms of religious terms. And now your Secretary of War, Secretary of Defense, he calls himself Secretary of War, who talks openly all the time about his family and him were in church and he's a religious man. And all of this to openly show the hypocrisy and disingenuous way he's saying that when he can quote with passion a Bible verse that is not a Bible verse, but is really Samuel L. Jackson playing a role. So if anything is more exposing than this week, from Mr. Trump, the president dealing with the Pope, all the way to this churchgoing guy that doesn't know the difference between pulp fish fiction and the book of St. Matthew or wherever else he wants to misquote. I think that it is incumbent upon the Christian right or the so called Christian nationalists to call them out. I don't expect nothing from Trump or Hegseth, but those that are supporting them saying they're holding up Christian standards. Now we'll see if you're really holding up Christian standards.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's a good point because Pete Hegseth was opposed by Democrats and Republicans. Pete Hegseth was investigated for accusations of rape. Pete Hegseth went on Megyn Kelly's show and talked about being an alcoholic, but promising not to drink if he was the country's Secretary of Defense. Pete Hegseth has revealed himself over and over and over again. And it turns out he is ignorant about a thing he's using as a political cudgel against the press day in and day out, against people he perceives to be Donald Trump's enemies. And it's all fake.

[Paul Rykoff]

I think that's the really important part. He's always been radical, reckless, extreme, sloppy, but he's also always been fake. And I think that's what's really starting to come out right now. I mean, Samuel L. Jackson was playing a part, Pete Hegseth is playing a part. And he's always been what I call the acting Secretary of Culture War. Right. He's a culture warrior. That's what he's been built to do. That's what he's been doing since he got there. And he's been trying to play the role of a Secretary of Defense. And he continues to fumble, he continues to falter. I think there's a really bigger important point here. Our enemies are celebrating because he looks weak, he looks vulnerable, he looks ridiculous, stupid. He looks stupid and he looks compromised. Right. And that really has our enemies celebrated. This is not a formidable Secretary of Defense. This is A secretary of defense who's driving us into more extreme politics, who's dividing our military. You know, 20% doesn't follow Jesus. And they've always wanted to make the military the MAGA army, Trump's army, but now it also looks like the army of Jesus, which, when you're launching our military into the Middle east, which has been divided by religion for generations, that's the worst possible foot forward we could put into the Middle east. When we're trying to establish trust, we're trying to sign treaties, and we're trying to build alliances. Ultimately, the most important thing here is that his fakeness and his recklessness and his radicalness is endangering our troops. Folks around the world are worried that they think they're troops of Jesus or they think they're troops of Hegseth instead of being loyal to our Constitution. That's deeply dangerous.

[Nicole Wallace]

And, Siya, I was a little embarrassed to have you here and ask you to opine on Donald Trump's war against the Pope. I'm a little embarrassed every time I say Donald Trump's war against the Pope, but he's made it one. This is, as I said to the rep, this is next level embarrassing that this is something we have to cover. And the reason I decided to lead with it today is because if you look at the foreign coverage of this, it is in every part of the globe. And I don't know if that's because it comes in the same sort of week that Trump and Vance have been at war against the Pope. But I mentioned a few of them. I mean, it is on the homepage of Al Jazeera. It is all over AP Europe and other European wire services. It is saturated the entertainment press here and around the world. It is in. I mean, it is a story that has spun around the globe faster than any story about Donald Trump that I've covered since the start of the war with Iran.

[Religious Studies Expert (possibly another academic or commentator)]

Yes. And let me say a couple of things about this, Nicole, because, you know, I was kind of hoping you'd have on Samuel L. Jackson today, since we

[Nicole Wallace]

couldn't get him when you were free, we rescinded our invite.

[Religious Studies Expert (possibly another academic or commentator)]

Thank you. Well, let me say it like this. I mean, first of all, Pete Hegseth's pastor, Doug Wilson, should be ashamed because basically, he's not being a good pastor to this man, because if you have a good pastor, you would know some scripture. He doesn't know any. And that's the problem. He is playing a part, and the part is is really bad. Like, I'm hoping that understudy will come very soon because he doesn't know scripture, he doesn't know his Bible. It's most of us who are in the religious studies world and anybody who studies, you know, biblical scriptures is laughing at him this week along with the rest of the world, because we know that's not real scripture. I kept looking at people in the audience thinking surely they know that this is a joke, right? Surely they know that this is made up, because not even someone who's going to go and fight for the country and find someone who is lost, you're trying to get back, a lost soldier is going to be saying something like that in their call sign. He made this whole thing up. I'm pretty sure of it. I, I hope that's the case because I would be embarrassed if there's a milit person who actually said that prayer besides him. That's number one. Number two, this whole thing with the Pope this week has been very interesting because it's like Trump can't get it out of his head and neither can J.D. vance. And for both of them, this is bad. They are losing. According to PRRI Public Research International, all of these people who are supposedly Catholics who basically voted for Trump in Vance at the beginning, but now are like, maybe we made a mistake. And so I think they are headed for a real pain come November because of this, you know, these actions against the Pope. But third, and I think this is the story that's being missed this week, and I want to say more about this, if we could, is to think about this as a myth making exercise. We talk about this a lot in religious studies. Trump, Hagseth, Vance are making a myth about religion right now. And that myth is this. We know what Christianity is. God is on our side. We are invincible. Now, most people in the Middle east have some kind of affinity. They know who Jesus is. They get it. You know, if Muslim, you know that Jesus is a great prophet, you know who Jesus is. If you're Jewish, you know who Jesus is. If you're Christian, okay, You may have different beliefs about him, but what is going on right now with this administration is a myth making exercise to show themselves as more religious than anybody else. And if they win this war, what they're going to say is God is on their side and they can do whatever they want to do. Which is why the Pope has been talking about just war theory and calling them out and calling everybody who's doing war right now out about what a just war is versus what it is. Not. And this is not. You can't define it this way based on Catholic theology, based on St. Augustine, who came up with the idea in the first place? You just can't do it. And they are wrong.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I mean, on that point, Anthea, it feels like what's. They're wrong. Right. They're ignorant, reading Pulp Fiction. And they may now admit that it was Pulp Fiction. I imagine in another news cycle, if anyone's rounding up the mockery that Pete Hegseth is getting in a dozen languages and counting, I imagine in a couple days, they may say they were doing it on purpose. It was a tribute to Pulp Fiction. I mean, their story will keep changing as the humiliation goes up in severity. But I guess my question is about people of faith. Are the Christian sort of right, rank and file more politically extreme or more loyal to their faith?

[Religious Studies Expert (possibly another academic or commentator)]

I think there is a core that is loyal to Trump no matter what, that are politically extreme and will take this as gospel because, I'm sorry, they don't know scripture very well either. That's the first thing. The second thing is that I really think is important here is that he's losing the people who voted for him, who were religiously oriented in part because they're thinking, but this is not what I voted for. They told me they were Christians. They told me they were getting away from abortion. They were going to do all of these things. They haven't done them. And that's the problem here, is that they're doing a culture war to wage war, which isn't working. And that's the problem. It's like, it's very narrow. So when you talked about this as being ignorant or illegitimate, the other part of it is that they're fighting a war that doesn't exist outside of this country. Nobody understands this stuff. The country. And I think this is really important. This is why the world is mocking them. Because nobody in Europe talks about religion like this. Nobody in Africa does. Nobody in Asia does. Nobody in the Middle east does. It's us, and this is our battle, and this is our internal cultural war. And we don't understand. And at least they don't understand, some of us do, that this is about home stuff. This is not about the rest of the world. And that's why they look stupid to the rest of the world. It's really embarrassing to be in America and go overseas and have people ask you, why are they talking about so much religion? You're not talking about the things that need to be done in your country. That's the sad part here, it's like we're not even waging a war if it's a just war properly. And it's not because we can't get out of fighting culture wars here.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and, you know, in sort of the. How bad is it? It's so bad they've lost Megyn Kelly. Vane. Here's Megyn Kelly.

[Megyn Kelly]

I'm a fan of Pete's. I helped get him this job. He would be the first to tell you that. However, I am not a fan of the praying and the constant references to God, Jesus and the Bible from the Pentagon while he's announcing war plans. It makes me very uncomfortable. Very. I do not think those two things belong together. I much prefer the Dan Raisin Cain approach of just the facts. The religion, obviously, it's a major part of Pete's life. That's great. And I'm in favor of that. It doesn't belong. When you're talking about our plans to wipe out people, including possible civilians, as President Trump continues to threaten. These two things do not belong together.

[Nicole Wallace]

I just.

[Megyn Kelly]

I am really uncomfortable with it. If Joe Biden did this through his Pentagon, I would have ripped him a new one. And therefore, notwithstanding my friendship with Pete, I feel the need to register my strong objection to what he's doing.

[Nicole Wallace]

So I think. I think Megan is increasingly emboldened in attacking Donald Trump in a way that is transparently tied to his plunging poll approvals. Poll. Poll numbers. But I also don't that she believes that religion is a major part of Pete's life. I think Pete did an interview with Meghan when he talked about how he wouldn't drink as Secretary of Defense. I think he may be reaching for religion for whatever problems he clearly has. But I think the fact that they are walking away from all of these people, I mean, you can barely track how a week ago she was saying, I'm sick of this bleep, you know, this is so effing messed up. This week, she's distancing herself from someone she calls her good friend Pete. Hegseth. There's something rotten at the core of the Trump presidency.

[Anthea Butler]

There's something rotten. And I think that some of those that want to survive after this appear to be shipwreck that we're headed toward. They want to get off the deck now. But again, I repeat, where are the Christian leaders? Where are the Christian nationalists that have not come out, like even Megyn Kelly and say, how can you dare desecrate the religion that you claim that we believe in, that we're the leaders of. They've not distanced themselves. Can you imagine if Biden's secretary of defense or Obama's secretary of defense got up and said scripture that was in a movie script rather than in the Bible? I mean, they would be screaming, this is sinful. They'd be calling down the gates of heaven to turn them into gates of hell. And we've heard not a mumbling word from some of the major Christian leaders that were just praying over him and extolling Trump at the national prayer break.

[Nicole Wallace]

Why not?

[Anthea Butler]

Their laryngitis is that they seemingly be more loyal and committed to the administration than they are to the God they claim choose you this day who ye shall serve. Well, we're looking and it's been 48 hours and I'm seeing you serving Trump and Hegseth more than serving God and Jesus who you claim to represent.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's extraordinary moment. No one's going anywhere. There's much more to show you on this story. Also ahead for us, voters in Hungary sent a message this week that they'd had enough of Viktor Orban sending shock waves through the little cozy autocrats club. Now today there are more signs that Trump's Maga brand is also toxic and faltering. This time it is losing favor with right wing allies overseas. The latest leaders to rebuff and abandon Trumpism. We'll tell you about them. Plus how Trump's attacks on the Pope, a sputtering economy he says is right on track and a deeply unpopular war with Iran that Donald Trump started are highlighting just how out of touch Donald Trump is with his own political base. We'll bring you what he's saying about that. And later in the show, Trump's takeover of the Kennedy Center. We'll talk with a fired one time employee, the Performing Arts center on the chaos he says unfolded there once Trump's White House got involved. All those stories and much more on death in White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Pete Hegseth]

I sat there in church and I thought, our press are just like these Pharisees. Not all of you, not all of you, but the legacy Trump hating press. Your politically motivated animus for President Trump nearly completely blinds you from the brilliance of our American warriors. The Pharisees scrutinized every good act in order to find a violation, only looking for the negative. The hardened hearts of our press are calibrated only to impugn. I would ask you to open your eyes to the goodness, the historic success of our troops, the courage of this president.

[Nicole Wallace]

I've listened to that a few times. I can't find a single example in either the Maduro operation or the conduct of the war with Iran where a single report has failed to cite the tactical brilliance of the American military, their ability to do the impossible, their ability to succeed at whatever mission they're given, their ability to be so brilliant that the tactics almost cloud out for a while the need for any strategic overlay over the war of Iran, which Donald Trump has never offered the country. What's amazing to me about that is that he is what he's criticizing. He's the one so blinded by hardened hatred of the truth. And journalists in journalism who have a long history, a long history of an alliance with the men and women of the military, of making sure that the country knows the details of their, of the heroism in the battlefield and before we had cameras, of bringing back dispatches. I mean, our great history of literary icons are battlefield journalists. I mean, he has it completely, not just wrong, but upside down and backward. And by the way, he's, I believe, an invited guest of a legacy media outlet himself. So again, fake.

[Paul Rykoff]

The facts don't matter. The truth doesn't matter. Data doesn't matter. This is a strategy. This is a tired old strategy of attacking people's patriotism, saying that anyone who covers the war is undermining the troops. This goes back to the Iraq war when they said if you show coffins, it's undermining morale and it's hurting our troops. PBS had to fight to just print the names of the fallen, right? That was a fight we had 20 years ago. So this is a tired old strategy that I think most people see through. But I do think there's a bigger issue. He is absolutely shaming himself, but he's shaming the country in such a way that is so deeply damaging that it's hard for us to recover from. And you can't separate this from the other crazy, disgusting story, which is RFK. JR's raccoon penis story, okay? These are happening in parallel to the world. And I think the question now for all of us who are not supporting Trump is, what's the plan? Outrage, sadness is not enough. You have to have a plan. So it should be removing Hegseth, right? We talk about how to remove Trump. That's, I think, overall the priority. But Hegseth needs to go, and that should be the focus. Kennedy needs to go. Stop embarrassing America, stop looking ridiculous, stop making us less safe, and focus on Fetterman, Focus on moderates and say, why are you tolerating this? I think the focus on impeaching Hegseth has legs, has focus, and should be bipartisan, because we got to get him out of there. Because every day he speaks, he's making us less safe, and he's embarrassing us to the world.

[Nicole Wallace]

You can't just say raccoon penis and not tell us the story.

[Paul Rykoff]

I imagine your listeners have seen this, right? But yesterday, it was submitted to the congressional record that RFK Jr. At some point pulled over and removed the penis from a dead raccoon because he said he wanted to study it while his children waited in the car. Like, this is absolutely ridiculous, disgusting, damning, disqualifying, and we shouldn't just gloss past it. I mean, the guy is an obsessed obsession with roadkill and dead animals, and at the same time, he wants to ban vaccines for kids. So get him out of there. Let's get him out. Let's get Hegseth out. Every day they're there, our enemies are celebrating, and every day we can work to get them out, we're making progress toward making this country a better place.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, Anthony, you talked about how around the world, our conversation, or one of the country's two parties being wrapped around the axle of phony religion is confounding. You know, I was part of an administration whose policies were wildly unpopular around the world, and voters hated being hated. And I wonder if you could just say a little bit more about how people who should be in community, Right? I mean, the whole beauty of having faith as a big part of your life is the universality of it. The community that goes beyond, you know, your church or your town and connects you to something bigger. If you. If it's fake for Donald Trump, which it clearly is, if it's fake, or at least incompetent and being weaponized by Pete Hegseth, which it clearly is, if you can mix up Pulp Fiction and the actual Bible, what does the world think of America's relationship to real faith.

[Religious Studies Expert (possibly another academic or commentator)]

I think we don't have, people think we don't have it. Basically, they don't really quite understand why it is that Americans, first of all, talk so much about religion but know so little about it. And I think that's the most important thing, whether we're talking about Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, but we don't, our, our populace does not know much, and our leaders know even less. So that's, that's, that's one problem. So there's a problem of religious illiteracy here. We have a bunch of illiterate people in religion trying to propose religion in a way that everybody thinks is, you know, at least to them, that they should be listened to. But when you have a vice president who says the pope should, you know, pay more attention to theology, basically I'm just like, are you kidding me? This man is an Augustinian. He studied more than you ever have. Mr. I did not take a class to become a Catholic, and I don't really quite understand why it is that they think they're so smart. But here's the problem. We can't speak into anything in the world right now in terms of interfaith dialogue with these kinds of people running our country. I have been involved in ecumenical dialogues, you know, around the world, different places where we've had to talk to not just Christians, but Buddhists and Jews and Islam and other people, other faiths. And, and this is, we just never had this before. This is really a bad space for those of us who do this kind of work. We can't do it because we have to explain all the time why our president, why are, you know, secretary of war, why all the Christian people around Trump are like this. I want to bring up one thing noted. I think we kind of missed in all of this argument that we've talked about that what has been going on the last couple of weeks. And back on Good Friday, Paula White prayed for Donald Trump, and she compared him to Jesus, basically, like going through the three days of Holy Week and saying that he was like Jesus. And so basically, I have a question to ask. I think that they're worshiping the wrong person. I really do think that this is, you know, I don't we hesitate to use the word cult in religious studies for a lot of reasons, but this is beginning to be kind of behavior that you see with other kinds of leaders that have led people astray. And I really do believe that right now that people who are of faith, who are Christians, should be thinking about what am I hearing from this administration and does it line up with what I've been taught in my church, in my school, in the faith that I believe in? And even if you're an atheist right now, everybody knows that this is just wrong. You don't even have to believe anything to know that this is absolutely, positively a real distortion of the Christian faith.

[Nicole Wallace]

A quick last one.

[Anthea Butler]

I think that also we need to not miss that this is a political strategy from what Paula White did to the president putting up this AI portrait of him as Jesus that he laid to Hegseth. Talking about the Pharisees. They have a political strategy of trying to act as though they are the embodiment, the personification of Christ. There's a straight line. All this happened within 10 days from Paula White to there's no accident he's talking about the Pharisees after the president just acted like he was Jesus. Because who were the Pharisees? How do we know the Pharisees, Those that came after Jesus. So he's really saying to the press that criticizes the president, you are coming after the Messiah. You are coming after Jesus. Oh, I meant Donald Trump. That is the subliminal message and we shouldn't act like that's not a political strategy.

[Nicole Wallace]

And if they get some of the verses from Pulp Fiction instead of the Bible, it's just because they were moving too quickly.

[Anthea Butler]

That's right.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's unbelievable. Unbelievable. A dark and cynical strategy executed with their signature incompetence. Anthea, we're going to need you because I think the refs right. This is the strategy. Thank you so much for being back with us again today. After the break, Donald Trump and his right wing maga following are now so political politically toxic overseas that his like minded friends and allies in Europe increasingly see him as a liability. We'll bring you that reporting next. Oh no, my coffee. Bronnie here.

[Anthea Butler]

New brawny 3 ply is now more absorbent.

[Nicole Wallace]

Wow.

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[Anthea Butler]

Do you wear plaid, Ronnie? Some of the strongest.

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[Ms. Now Announcer]

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[Nicole Wallace]

Don't let anyone gaslight you on this next point. Donald Trump is unpopular and he is politically toxic. And the backl to Donald Trump's increasingly politically toxic MAGA brand has now gone global. While many of Donald Trump's right wing allies in Europe have reached a breaking point very recently, the Washington Post reports today that, quote, pro Trump politicians from London to Rome who were already squirming around the Europe bashing the president's punitive tariffs, threats to seize Greenland and the surprise attack on Iran have found starker red lines in Trump's conduct of the war, his genocidal rhetoric and verbal broadside against Pope Leo xiv, the first American pontiff. The Washington Post said, quote, the same party leaders who cheered Trump's hard line on immigration and his culture war offensives now find themselves repulsed by his military interventions in Latin America, the Middle east and Africa. Facing a shrinking group of international allies, Donald Trump sought to even further alienate himself by dragging the Italian Prime Minister, Giorgio Meloni into his feud with Pope Leo. On that, the New York Times writes this, quote, after suffering major political setbacks because of her association with Donald Trump, who is deeply unpopular in Italy and seen as the cause of rising gas prices there, Ms. Maloney seized on an opportunity to extricate herself from a relationship that had grown domestically and internationally poisonous. I want to bring in former ambassador to Russia and international affairs analyst Michael McFaul. The Rev and Paul are still here. So we've been talking, ambassador, for years now about the fights within countries between autocracy and democracy. It seems that Trump is so toxic that even some of the world's players who fall just on the other side of the autocrat or autocratic friendly line are now aligning themselves against Donald Trump.

[Michael McFaul]

Yes, it's an international trend. It started in Hungary. Let's not get to these other leaders yet until we remind everybody what a fantastic democratic breakthrough this was in Hungary. Viktor Orban was the darling of the MAGA world. He's the darling of Putin. He's been in power for 16 years, eroding democratic institutions ideologically very close to President Trump. And then he sent his vice president to go campaign for him. By the way, somebody should ask who paid for that trip and is that within the electoral finance rules of Hungary and the United States? But it didn't work. It was a backfire and As a result, I think that's giving permission and space for other leaders, like you pointed out, Prime Minister Maloney in particular in Italy, to say we don't want to be associated with this Maga ism and Donald Trump, especially when he's violating some of the things that they thought they all agreed upon.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ambassador, what is the greater thing pulling people away from Trump? Is it, I mean, because I think there's a temptation, right, to pull all the lessons that we can to buoy our sort of pro democracy aims and ambitions. But what is actually pushing people away from people like Orban?

[Michael McFaul]

That's a great question. I think it's a real important lesson for many other countries that have elections coming up, including our own. Magyar, who won that election and his party hardly ever talked about democracy and dictatorship. He talked about two other things, anti corruption and economic stagnation as a result of the way that Viktor Orban was pushing Hungary away from the eu. Now, of course, those things are interrelated with democratic institutions, institutions. But if you look closely, it was a real focus on anti corruption and a falling economy. That was the essence of it. Magyar himself, remember, is a member of the Fidesz party. This happens a lot, by the way, in democratic breakthroughs when there's a leader that was once part of the coalition and then breaks happened, by the way, in Ukraine back in 2004 during the Orange Revolution. Same dynamic, but in doing so, the focus was really on anti corruption. And I think that is an important lesson for other leaders in Europe and here in the United States.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's so important because the corruption is the thing that more than anything else, Trump thinks he's getting away with. I mean, he thinks he is rocking the pocketing of billions of dollars, standing shoulder to shoulder with all the titans of tech and finance and his inauguration telling the world that he has all of America's sort of money marching in lockstep with him and then grabbing for himself and his kids crypto billions and money for, I mean, this to me feels like the most sort of under appreciated political vulnerability that he has right now. I want to bring everyone in on this part of the conversation. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be right back. We're back with investor McFaul, Paul and the Rev. So, Paul, this is from Politico. Trump has become so politically toxic in Europe that even his closest ideological allies increasingly view him as a liability. Quote, we need to keep our distance. That was Frances Marine La Pen talking to her fellow far right national Rally lawmakers at a meeting Tuesday. These are his people. And just so that people, I think, appreciate how central this has been to Maga. Bannon has called Orban his hero. These leaders have provided a sort of coalition of almost like the villains, the enemies, and the threats to democracy at a global level. And now they are all looking at Trump as too politically toxic.

[Paul Rykoff]

He's jumped the shark. And I think now what you see is his popularity is dropping, and he's really being positioned as the bad guy. I mean, freedom is on the march. Freedom is winning. Authoritarianism is losing. Hungary is very significant. I would say one down, more to go, right? And if you look across the landscape, there's a new Avengers movie coming out, right? And we kind of need the Avengers. They've been gone for, like, six years. And Trump is like Dr. Doom. He's a bad guy. And the world is now aligning against him. And they're looking for Captain America, and they're looking for the other X Men. They're looking for Professor Xavier, all the people who can align. And they might be uncommon allies, but they're looking for fighters, they're looking for superheroes, and they want to see the bad guys lose. And I think. I think the populism is a very important part of it, the economic populism, the corruption, because there's also a groundswell of people who feel like the entire system is rigged totally. And they want to eat the rich. They want payback. They want to see the big guys who've made all this money and done so well and screwed up the world. They want to see them held accountable. And Orban, you know, losing might not be enough. You know, they want to see him in jail. And I think a lot of folks still want to see Netanyahu in jail. They want to see Trump in jail. I mean, there is a growing center in this world that feels like it's been run in the wrong way. And these are the bad guys, and it's time to stand on the side of good. And Trump's making it easier every day because he continues to be the bad guy. And he's fighting with the Pope. I mean, he's fighting with the Pope. I mean, you know, they think that they have God on their side, and the Pope thinks he's got. He has God on his side. I'm going with the Pope, right? Like, if it's a fight, my money's on the guy in white. I'm going with the Pope. And I think most of the world is, too.

[Nicole Wallace]

I'm Going with the guy that isn't like running a crypto scam on the side. I mean, that also I think argues against Trump's motives. I mean, the corruption piece is so interesting. And in Hungary, they're investigating whether taxpayer dollars went to cpac. I mean, the corruption investigations are underway in Hungary. Why do you think people here act as though this moment won't end and there won't be accountability for anyone that committed crimes?

[Anthea Butler]

Because I think that we became neutral. We became, in many ways, numb is the word I'm looking for because we had so much. So we're actually sitting here discussing a man with 34 felony convictions and a sexual assault conviction in the civil court, arguing with the Pope. And we act like this is an equal fight.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, like a president with 34 felonies, a secretary of Defense who was investigated by Monterey, California police for alleged rape, a DHS secretary who was so bad she's gone, but she wrote in her own book about killing her dog and lied about meeting with foreign leaders. I mean, to your point about Avengers, you know, everything ends. And this idea that this moment won't end and be replaced by a massive tide just seems so short sighted. You just saw all the Democrats. Who do you feel like is up for leading that?

[Anthea Butler]

I think you have a few that stand out at our convention. National Action Network webinar. Moore certainly stood out. I think Kamala Harris stood out. I think they want a fighter. This is not one to sit back and calculate your moves. This is not one to say that, you know, is this gonna poll?

[Paul Rykoff]

Right?

[Anthea Butler]

They want somebody that'll get in the ring and say, you knock me out or I'll knock you out. Donald Trump. And that's what they want. Cuz he's, he's upended everything this country's morally stood for. He's a felon arguing with the Pope and he's got his Secretary of War misquoting the Bible. What else do you need to say? Who's gonna stand up and fight this guy toe to toe? And I think that you're right. I think that's what America's waiting for. Who will step up?

[Paul Rykoff]

He's a super villain and they're looking for superheroes. And it's not gonna be a time for a standard politician. I mean, Wes Moore is Captain America. Then you got Mark Kelly, who's an astronaut. Then you got Slotkin, who's a former CIA agent. They want to see them fight. And I think the country wants to see them fight, especially independents and moderate Republicans. And there may be others that emerge. I think retired generals are always an area that we're looking to. There may be faith leaders who will meet this moment, but people want to see the new generation of offenders take out the supervillain. And that includes Putin. Right. Putin's on the right and we've got Zelensky on our side. So you can see this starting to come together in an ultimate clash for the future of democracy for sure, and maybe the future of our world.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right. Well, this is going to have to be a regular thing because I know Ambassador McFaul would have a lot to say about Zelensky on the side of the avengers. To be continued. Ambassador Michael McBault, thank you for joining us today. Paul Reichofin, the Reverend Al Sharpton, thank you for spending the hour with us. Be sure to catch more of the RED this weekend on his show Politics Nation. When we come back, former President Barack Obama with a message to voters on pushing back against Republicans trying to rig the game this midterm election year. We'll show it to you next. Donald Trump's pre midterm election season jitters just got a whole lot worse because former President Barack Obama, who is much more popular than Donald Trump, has stepped into the mix, throwing his political weight behind Virginia's redistricting effort as Democrats there try to fight back against the Trump backed gerrymandering in red states. Take a look.

[Michael McFaul]

Hey, Virginia.

[Barack Obama]

Early voting is underway and Virginians are turning out in record numbers to vote yes. By voting yes, you have a chance to do something important not just for the commonwealth, but for our entire country. By voting yes, you can push back against the Republicans trying to give themselves an unfair advantage in the midterms. By voting yes, you can take a temporary step to level the playing field and we're counting on you. Early voting is happening right now. Election day is on April 21st. So go to iwillvote.com va to find your closest polling location, make a plan, show up and vote yes, Virginia.

[Nicole Wallace]

For anyone keeping track at home, the last time he did that was in California and that measure passed overwhelmingly. Now Virginians will head to the polls on Tuesday. Thousands have already weighed in during early voting, so we'll continue to keep an eye on that up next for us. He once called groceries old fashioned. He staged a door dash delivery to his front porch. So we'll show you what an out of touch Donald Trump thinks of corner stores. The next hour of deadline. White House starts after a short break. Don't go anywhere, anywhere.

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[Religious Studies Expert (possibly another academic or commentator)]

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